The Greater Reality: Till We Have Faces, Ch9-11

Join this discussion I had with Esther (14) and Adalyn (15) of C. S. Lewis' book Till We Have Faces. He's a master at showing us the greater reality through fiction!!

Next up, Chapters 12, 13, & 14. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello everyone! Welcome to the Junto podcast, where we discuss classic folks. I'm Angelica, and I'm discussing the book Till We Have Faces by C.S. Lewis with Adeline, who's 15, and Esther, who's 14. We're hitting the meat of the book, and so our discussions are getting a lot more philosophical. It's fantastic. Let's jump into this great conversation.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

We enter this scene with Orule just having woken up and starting to function after her long, long slumber and dream of madness. And so she hangs out with Bardia and he teaches her how to sword fight, which is really sweet. And then she says, I really want to go pick up bones of my sister. And so she goes up the mountain with Bardia, who is an awesome man, and I definitely think we should discuss that sometime. It's a beautiful land, and she's starting to understand the beauty that Psyche felt. And then there's no bones, no blood, nothing, just a tree. And she walks around this glade, and then she sees Psyche across this river. And Psyche says, Come over here, my sister. She crosses the water. So she's like, Was it more? My threshold's a little cold, but come on up. And so she goes in and she eats a bunch of berries. And then Psyche says, drink my wine. And she gets a little water in her hands and gets her to drink that. And Orul does not understand what's happening because she says, Oh, what a beautiful cup. And then Psyche said, You can have it. And she's like, Well, I hope I can always have it. And then Psyche says her whole story. And then it comes to a point to where we understand that Orul does not see what Psyche sees. Psyche sees a palace when Arule sees a glade. Psyche's dressed in robes to herself, but Arul sees a wet, bedraggled girl in rags. So that's where we left off.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

I really loved Bardia so much. So he's seen as like this older guy, more middle-aged, I think, but he's the head of the guards, but he's very kind to Oral. And when she was in this deep depression, he kind of swooped in and was like, We need to train you in sword fighting, because someone with that type of talent shouldn't go untrained. This sword training kind of picks her up, and she says that weakness and work are two of the uh gifts that the gods have given them, but but sweat is the most kindest of them. And so it was really nice. And then, of course, Bardia offers to go up to the mountain with her, and it was just so sweet.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

What I was so struck by in chapter nine was this line just really got me. She said, I I felt as if the air were sweeter as we got away from all that holiness. And I was like, Whoa, she's got it all wrong. Real holiness is not, it's not Ungat. That's what I was very convinced of from these chapters is that Ungat is not a real god. That's not at all. That's is that what y'all think?

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Wow. I was thinking, in contrast, like Ungut was supposed to be evil, but Eros was what true beauty was, or Cupid or the shadow brood, whatever you want to call him. I think he was supposed to be a representation of true holiness rather than Ungut was just, you know, it was these trivial things that were just terrible.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

And her struggle on going up the mountain and actually getting gazes of true beauty, the question, why should your heart not dance? But she said this was where my struggle began. I was almost happy, but then I conquered and I was not. And man, I just I hate that. Um for her, that cynicism. Well, if it looks good, it's probably not. And I see that everywhere in the way that we think as well. Which I have a personal story about that. I know when I first moved 13 years ago, there was this attitude, and I don't know where I picked it up, when you're in ministry that you assume people are not sincere. And so when I would be on the stage singing and I would look at people in the church, I would not be convinced that they were truly sincere in their faith and have no idea where that came from. And somehow in the last decade, that's totally changed. I absolutely think the people I'm looking at are sincere. I think very highly of them, especially the older saints who have followed Christ for so many years. And it's just so much more meaningful, even to be in church, because I'm not cynical about the people that I'm around. So it breaks my heart to think of her fighting against what should bring her joy. It's just sad and I don't know why that happens. Uh, but she did say, I knew the world too well to believe this sudden smiling.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

I know that when I moved up here, that you retain this, like, where I come from is better. You constantly compare what you've lived in for so long to whatever you're facing that's new. And so I tried to retain loyalty to where I was from, but I was really trying to gain a new loyalty. And so I think like that goes along the same lines.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

We're not cynics, but maybe it's a protective mechanism where if you actually believe you've that rainbows and butterflies are gonna come every day, you're gonna be disappointed. So let's not believe in them at all, you know. She could see something, actually. I guess she couldn't really see everything, but compared to the darkness of Unget's abode. And it made me wonder what is belief, if not confidence, in the goodness and beauty of God. It's not just acknowledging God exists, that's not really belief. It's like believing He is good and beautiful and for us. And that's what I think. Oriol is missing. She's a sad situation.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

I think that the road that they traveled was significant too, because they did not follow the holy road. Oh. They followed roadless traveled, the secret passage that Bardia has. And so I wonder if that was why Oriol found so much beauty. Yeah. Is because they were not traveling this quote unquote holy road. They were traveling something that was pure, it seemed to her. Right. Because the uh you would imagine the holy road would reflect Ungat's religion. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

The priest's religion.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

And that was all she would be able to notice the entire time. Is this the play a place where Psyche was crying, or was this the place where this, that, the other, but instead she was focusing on the beauty.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

So chapter 10, she actually crosses over the river. And I think it ends with this sudden realization that they are not looking at the same thing. So, what do y'all have to say about that chapter?

SPEAKER_00 7:43

So, this last week I had a speech about longing for death, longing for real life, really, longing for eternity. And to follow up on that, Psyche has reached it. Psyche has found her beauty, found the love she wanted, but now we're seeing a rule missing out, and she can't reach it. She is a lost human, someone who does not have any true faith. Her first realization is anger. It would be like the people in prison with Paul in Acts started getting angry at him because he was singing hymns and being happy. Arule is so self-centered that she thinks the world revol almost revolves around her. She thinks Psyche should be a normal human, a normal lost human in sin, but she's not.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Oriel said that her the world was falling apart, but she and Psyche were on two different pieces of it. So they were separated.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Yep, and that's the bottom line. And I feel very sorry for her rule.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Another part of Psyche's true holy experience was after Zephyr took her to the palace and she was being bathed. That was symbolic of washing off all these, from a Christian perspective, all these sins. And also her ashamedness. Oh yeah. She was very ashamed to be in the presence of anyone that was a deity or seemed holy, truly holy to her. And she just felt ashamed for being mortal, being this lesser being, but that was not something she could help. And so I feel like that's symbolic of a human sin. It's impossible for humans to not sin. So it is something we are ashamed of. And those sins are washed away by Christ. And then we're saved and we're in this holy place with him forever. Psyche's entire journey was symbolic to that. She felt like walking through life was like a dream. And then she felt so lonely and she had no one around. But then she sees this light, which is Zephyr, and he brings her to this wonderful place where she can be saved.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Mm-hmm. One theme that I started thinking about with Zephyr, but ended later with Cupid, is that when she realized that he was a person, it took away her concerns, right? Do y'all remember that part? Well, I got a glance of him. And so then I knew like I was gonna be okay. And I wasn't worried even when I if I spun up around in the wind. But I love that fact that the gods are personal and all the things that happened in our life is from a direct person. It's not like a force or wind. I thought a lot about this from the Tinkerbell movies because their intro is so beautiful. All the fairies are flying around and changing the seasons, you know, with their little special um skills. And it's makes it so much more special to think that the seasons are changed by a person, not just the tilt of the earth and the sunlight. Um, but everything that happens is by the finger of God. And so I love that theme.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

We need to talk about what we know about the brute.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Okay, so he lives in this land that's gorgeous, and he doesn't want to be seen.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

He is the husband of Psyche and her master.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

He knows that Oriel will not be able to see the palace, and he also is calling the shots because he says Barnia cannot come, Oriel has to leave before sundown.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

I guess he also makes the rules about who sees the palace because he gave Psyche that ability.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

I find it interesting that how much Orule is against him. She starts to blame everything on him.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Yeah, I've we've talked about how Oriel's idol is Psyche, and so since she's getting taken away by him, then she can't handle it. There was a line that was like him.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

She keeps talking about him, and uh she had come to like think of him as them or the enemy, and it was as if he was getting closer and became more real, and she didn't like it.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Why did it make Oriel so mad that Psyche could see and was happy in this palace and and Oriol couldn't?

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Because she internally doesn't know this, but she wants to be happy, and the the way she sees it, Psyche being with her is the only way that she can be happy. And seeing that Psyche can be happy with another person and with another life in another world is heartwrenching to her because all she knows is glow. All she knows is this angry father, and the only good thing in her life is Bardia and the fox. You would think she would want to believe. That's what's so frustrating.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Which I think some part of her does want to believe. Like when she was on the way up the mountain, she obviously had this, oh, everything was so beautiful, but she tries to suppress it. And what evidence has she been given that it's true? Psyche, just in general, because she is so beautiful and she's seen as a gift from the gods. And if she has this urge as well, then she should know that things are beautiful and that Psyche's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

It also mentioned uh several times that Psyche is doing so well. If the palace was not true and Psyche was just living on berries, she would not look as good as she did. So just the thrivingness of Psyche should make Oriol consider what if I'm the problem and this is the reality that I can't see.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

She was stronger than Oriol, which is crazy because Oriel is seen as like an amazing sword fighter. It's hard to make up a sword. You gotta be strong for that. And so it she's stronger than her, and that makes her like super thriving, almost godlike. Yes, sense.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Okay, let's talk about the last chapter. Uh I guess Adela tell us what happened in the last chapter because we didn't really go over it.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

Okay, so Psyche and Oral both have this realization that Oral can't see the palace, and Psyche can. And so Oral's immediate reaction was anger and deciding that Psyche is mad. She's crazy, and there is no uh palace and there is no God and nothing actually happened, and the drug was still affecting her. And these were all made-up things that she made to comfort herself. But Psyche has this, you know, like, no, no, no, I'll get you to see. We'll find a way. But Oral is so against it, she's like, no, I don't want to see, you're crazy. And it's this constant fight, this physical fight, even. And eventually it's sundown, Oriel has to go. She can't say because the brood told her that Oro could only stay for so long. And so she goes back to Bardia, but she has this sense of what am I gonna do? I don't have psyche. Psyche seems crazy, even though I'm she knows she's not, and she knows there is something greater out there. She says that she was causing herself to not believe. And so she's g uh going back to Bardia and she calls out to him and then it ends.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

One interesting line in there was that Oriol, when the word madness came to her mind and it emptied the situation a little of its holiness and horror. So yeah, I mean it's just an excuse. But I thought that was interesting. Oh, what do y'all think about the rain? It started raining, and that's what triggered Oriole to not believe. But in the past, we've seen rain as a blessing when there was the drought over Gloam and it rained on the day that Psyche was sacrificed. So it seemed like the the curse was lifted and the the land could be blessed again. Uh but Oriel obviously looks at it as a curse.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Um, there's the phrase rain on my parade. Oriel was very happy to see Psyche, and then she comes to this realization that she can't see any uh any of the palace, and that ruins the entire thing.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

We had talked about in the beginning of the book how will Psyche and Oriol stop being like best buds? What could ever come between them? Now we see it's actually that one believes in the spiritual reality and goodness of the gods, and one can't see it, and it causes that huge division between them.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

I know from experience how hard it is to let a friend just go. It's very difficult, and it's even harder for just normal life whenever you have like a sibling wanting to cook their first meal on their own. But you know that you're way better at cooking and you can actually measure the vanilla by yourself instead of letting them spill it everywhere. But you have to let them go. And that's the way they grow up, and that's the way life is good, because you can't be there forever. Or does not understand this.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

She takes pride in her position as mother, foster mother. What questions and predictions do we have moving forward?

SPEAKER_02 17:28

What's the fox gonna think? Is he gonna side with Orl? Or is he gonna side with Psyche? Is he gonna say that Orl had this dream? Because he is an atheist. We've said this before, he doesn't believe in the gods. So what are his thoughts gonna be on this?

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Will S Oral ever meet the brute? I think she will. And I want to know the circumstances.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

Oh man. Will she see him as one of the terrible gods that have cursed her? Like she is writing this accusation against the gods. So maybe he will be maybe she'll see him as the only one who is truly good, but I doubt that.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

I don't even want to read on I you trust the author, so we'll keep reading, but it's just so sad because I don't think Oriol ever changes based off of our intro. So what good can happen the rest of the book when I think it's gonna end bad. Are the gods good?

SPEAKER_02 18:25

Is she right in this accusation to the gods?

SPEAKER_00 18:28

I think the gods are good and she is wrong.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

I do too. I think I think deities are meant to be worshipped and they're worshipped for a reason, which Greek deities are horrible, but they are still gods, and there's a reason they're gods.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

I do think Unged is totally false. The the religion of Gloam is wrong. They're wrong about the gods, I think. That's what I'm convinced of. Well, I just wanted to say this that years ago I read this essay by C.S. Lewis about the greater reality. And y'all may have heard me talk about it because I bring it up. Uh there's just two levels of reality, what we see and the greater reality of what is actually going on. God is at work. And when you live in light of the greater reality, it's just amazing to think through all of life. Psyche said, all of Glow was just a dream. That's not even what matters. She's not saying it it wasn't real, it was, but now the greater reality. Uh the greater reality is where she is now in the home she's in today.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Most humans waste their lives in regret over the past, anxiety over the future, and misdeeds in the present. Aurel does not understand that the past is over. She worries that Psyche isn't doing her right thing, and in the present, she's she's acting in anger. So it's just an ending circle because as long as she doesn't do good in the present, she's gonna regret the past.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Actually, enjoying life as it is in the present would open her ability to understand the spiritual greater reality that is around her.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Well, those were some chapters to say the least. I think C.S. Lewis is coming to his climax of the book, and he's gonna truly reveal rawly what or the differences between Oral and a psyche are.

unknown 20:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

And he's gotta lift it up for a minute, or else I can't press on, you know? There's gotta be some pleasure coming. That's what I would do if I was ending it where we ended it. Well, maybe Oriol has some bad times. I don't know. I just feel like there's gotta be a boost. Listening back to this conversation, I'm so impressed with Adeline and Esther and with C.S. Lewis, who is truly a master at using fiction to show us the greater reality. Thanks for joining us. Next time we'll discuss chapters 12, 13, and 14.