Love, Belief, and Murder in Till We Have Faces (Ch. 12-14)

Hey everyone! Welcome back to The Junto Podcast, where we dive deep into the pages of classic literature.

I’m your host, Angelica, and I am beyond excited to share this week's episode with you—honestly, it is my absolute favorite discussion to date! Joining me at the table are two brilliant young minds: 15-year-old Adalyn and my 14-year-old daughter, Esther.

Together, we are diving into Chapters 12–14 of C.S. Lewis’s masterpiece, Till We Have Faces.

Inside the Episode:

In this episode, we tackle some incredibly profound themes, including:

• The Nature of True Love: What does it actually look like, and where does it go wrong?
• Orual’s Doubt: We uncover the real hang-up Orual has when it comes to believing in the gods.
• The Ethics of Euthanasia & Restraint: A look at the heavy moral dilemmas embedded in the narrative.

What's Next?

Next time, we will be discussing Chapters 15–17.

Enjoy the episode, and happy reading!

Add to your TBR! Grab our list of Favorite Books Here:  https://www.growingfruitfulfamilies.com/classic-books-podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome to the Junto Podcast, where we fall in love with classic books. I'm Angelica, and I'm super excited to share with you this discussion. It's my favorite podcast today. In it, I'm talking with Adeline, who's 15, and my daughter Esther, who's 14, about the book Till We Have Faces by C.S. Lewis. Chapters 12 through 14. We get into the true nature of love and what Oriol's hangup is with belief. And even the ethics of euthanasia. It's fantastic conversation. And I can't wait for you to hear it.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Okay. So we start off with Oro going back to Bardia after this whole fiasco with Psy and thinking she's mad. And in the middle of the night, she actually saw the palace. So this is a huge thing because she never told anyone that she actually saw it up until old Oro was writing this book. Oriol has this conversation with the Vox where she tells of Psyche's story to him, and he agrees with her that she is mad. So what he thinks is that a man has taken her for his advantage and played into her fantasies. So Oriel is deadset on getting back to Psy and rescuing her. And she finally gets to Psyche again, and she makes her swear, like a blood oath, that in the middle of the night, while her husband is sleeping, look upon him with a lamp so that she'll know if he's a bad person or if he's a real god. And so Psyche is like very distressed. She doesn't want to do it. She doesn't want to disobey her husband. But finally, in order to keep Oriel alive, because she's starting to kill herself, she agrees to it. Oh, Bardia's wife. That was like a theme throughout the through both all three chapters. So in the first one, he mentions not lying with his wife on a full moon. In the second one, Fox mentions that his wife kind of treats him like a slave and uh keeps him keeps him by her apron strings. And uh in the last one, she mentions like, oh, I'll get Psyche and bring her to Bardius' house, even if his wife doesn't want him to keep her, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Fox's view of the situation was infuriating to me. Yes, I want to smack him over the face. He's like, the marriage is just a man convincing a woman to be with him. I guess he thinks marriage equals mating. Yes, like an animal, and that is infuriating. So I basically can't believe anything that the fox says about the marriage of Vardia and his wife because he's so cynical about marriage. Where I bet Vardia is very happy with his wife. They have a great relationship, and the fox is just like, yeah, she just controls him. And actually, Vardia enjoys his wife and is happy to please her.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Yeah, and I bet the fox has just had a horrible love life himself.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

And he's an old bachelor and goes with his view of life, I think, where if there's no gods, there's no greater reality or beauty outside of what's physical, then what is marriage? It it's just like an animal mating. Which is just ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Yeah, it's like uh in the Bible it says marriage is a symbolic thing c of the coming together of God and man. It's this whole thing that Paul says in First Corinthians. But here he's just saying, oh, it's just mating, right? So it's um that's there's that spiritual level that he doesn't see. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Yeah, ridiculous. I don't think that marriage is like a rooster and a hen, which the rooster destroys the hen completely. Which makes you think of like the brute devouring and feeding the drip at the same time. That's what I'm not because what we were we were trying to chase a rooster around Mineever's hen hoop hen coop because he was trying he was practically pulling out all the feathers on one of the chickens' heads. This is just it's whole despicable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Marriage is not brutality. That's it's a picture of God in the church. Yeah, something glorious that the fox just can't even see because of his worldview, I think.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Which he has the worst view of all. I'm starting to hate him.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Let's see. So his view is there's no gods, so it can't be that Psyche's with a god. It's gotta be she's with the rascal. Right. And then it was interesting when Oriel realized the fox's view and Barty's view are actually pretty much the same.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

And they're both wrong.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Right. They both think that Psyche's being taken advantage of, I think. So she's married to a brute. It's something bad. So Bardia thinks she's married to an evil god or a monster, because why would you not show yourself? And the fox thinks she's married to a villain, I guess. Because why would you not show yourself?

SPEAKER_00 5:03

You realize the fox is ruining or rules for life. Yeah. Not only psyches, but or rules. Because he said that Psyche is living in a horrible shack with a horrible van. So that eats away at Oral and she's gonna have to do something about it. And luckily it is, she's fighting against a god, and that can't happen.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Which i he just kind of validated her own feelings of doubt. It's someone taking advantage, not this beautiful marriage of a god and a woman.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Why would she talk about the castle? Right. It's literally right there. Half of her is thinking that, but the other half knows that there's something there that she doesn't understand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Do you think she has enough evidence that she should believe?

unknown 5:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Yeah, she saw it. So why would she refuse to believe what is the most glorious option? Because she's selfish.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

She wants Psyche herself. And she wants to believe that the gods are bad. That they've cursed her, that she's kind of wallowing in her own self-pity.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Yeah. And which is bizarre. Because what if she believed? She could probably go live in the castle. It's bizarre. To like insist on unbelief as the better option. And then decide that, oh, actually now I need to murder my sister because of this. It's taking her down such an evil dark path because she's insisting on ignoring the truth.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

It's like having your feet tied, but having a knife in your hand to where you can easily just cut the bonds, but you have to hop along on a precipice instead. It's ridiculous. She doesn't see the easy way out.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Backtracking a little bit, how Bardiat and the Fox both believe this is a bad, evil situation reminds me of the opposite of how Psyche went into it. Remember how Psyche said, like, what if there are gods? And what if they're actually doing something good? What if I'm actually gonna marry a god? Remember, she was struggling. She knew she could just be going to get sacrificed, but she had this hope of what if there is good? And that's what's missing in the three of them, Bardia, Oriola, and Fox.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Another part of the fox's discussion that was kind of contradictory to me was that he thinks of the soul as real, right? But he doesn't believe in the gods or anything spiritual. So how can you have a soul but nothing spiritual? Which uh the word psyche means soul. Oh. And in Greek mythology, she becomes the goddess of soul. Today it's used as your psyche. Oh so your soul or your mind or anything that you can't see. Your psychologist. Psychologist, yeah. Yeah. Psych. Psycho.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Yeah, I thought that was a really strong argument of against what the fox was saying. Well, if there's soul, why aren't there couldn't there be soul houses? But you have to acknowledge some level of the spiritual world, then why not more? I guess. Which I say that, but what psychology is, is an alternative to the spiritual world. So they say, oh, you are struggling with something that appears not to be physical, anger, sadness. Well, it's because of this underlying physical issue you have of a chemical in your brain. So they do completely deny the soul. It's not like, oh, something's wrong with your soul. Because who heals the soul? The Lord. That's the only way. So it's an alternative to the spiritual world, is modern psychology. So basically, it's the fox.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

So, what makes Orru not believe that Psyche is happy?

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Oh, that is another evidence for the truth of what Psyche's saying. She is happy, she looks great. How do you ignore that? She does not look abused, she does not act abused, she does not act crazy. And she murder her. I mean, that's what's weird. Let's say Psyche is deceived, but she's happy, and you're like, I can't leave her like this. I'm gonna have to kill her. That is a big jump. Like, and the fox wouldn't take it. Remember, he's like, No, no, no, no, no. Where he tried to back off of that thought.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

They just want to take her to Vardia's house.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

That's right. It reminds me of I don't know, maybe a week ago or two, I had a dream that my best friend, who you all know very well, I dreamt that she secretly was an alcoholic. Oh, and she was telling me this story. She was like, I mean, I was I was in my basement like I do like every night. I had this red tablecloth on the desk, and I was just drinking. I mean, I was getting so drunk. And then my husband got so mad at me, and we had this big fight, and I don't understand it. And and I was like crying, you know. I'm like, this this has been hidden from me. This is a secret problem that I haven't known, and everything I believe was not true. And I woke up wondering, is this true? And and I was like so bothered. And I had to like work through that for a few hours. Sunday morning, I remember as we went through tricks, I realized if she was an alcoholic, it would affect her life. She would not be dependable, she would not be on time, she would not look healthy, she would not be happy. You can't hide that stuff. And so that's what it made me think of. If bad things were actually happening to her, she would not look so good. People's lives are ruined with alcohol, drugs, and abuse. It shows. One of the greatest evidences that Oriel should take is how good Psyche looks. She's this tan blonde girl. It's almost stronger than the vision of the palace. Why is she doing so well if she's eating berries and drinking water? It's impossible. So ask your question one more time, because I think we addressed part of it, but not all of it.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

So, what makes Arual not believe that Psyche is happy?

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Right. So that's the evidence for it. Right. But what's against? Yeah. Well, I mean, for one, you can't see the palace. Yeah. That's a bit of a schizophrenia. You know, like there's these monsters in my walls. Alright, then that could be evidence against it. Oh, she's got something mental. She sees things that aren't there. Right. And that's her thought process. Oh, she's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

Maybe also she has grown up with such a wrong view of the gods. So if you think it's onget up there, there's no way psyche could be happy. Because she would be like one of those temple girls in the darkness. It's not just a jump from Psyche being happy. Maybe it's the bigger jump of the gods must be different or good. I've had a few times in my life where my mind totally changed about something, and it's very, very painful. Your world is shaken and you have to like reorder everything. And it's hard. It's very good, but it's just a painful process. And you feel disloyal to your belief. You feel guilty for changing.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Like she would be rejecting her childhood religion. Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Well, I think that the religion in Glom is the right one. Or not necessarily, but I mean they're better on track than Orul is. Because Arule does not understand that there actually are gods, or if they are gods, they're god they're to be feared and dreaded. She needs to be disloyal to that and see that, oh, there's they're actually in control.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Yeah, for good. Right. But I think the bottom line reason for why she won't believe is because she doesn't want to. Because she wants her position maybe of authority over Psyche. It's something about her relationship with Psyche, right? Is what she's obsessed over. So it's not she's seeking the truth. You know, she's seeking, I don't know, something else.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

She wants to be in charge of everything. She's an average oldest child. She wants her place in the world to be a one of authority. So she wants to have Psyche under her control. She wants to have Bardia under her control. She wants to be completely in control.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Which we had a friend yesterday just talking about how when she uh helped raise her two brothers, she became very attached to them in a motherly sense. And so imagine doing that from birth, being her mother. You're sort of her mother, father, sister, brother, kind of all in one. And so that's what Oriole says. She is all of her kin. Oriol wants to have this authority over Psyche that she does not have because she is just her sister. She is not her real mother. She is not her real father. She is just her sister, her older sister, who can tell her these things that she believes, but she cannot force them on her sister. Like that's an issue I guess I have as an older sibling, wanting to tell your siblings what to do and how to do it, and taking control over them, belittling them in a sense. And that's what Oriel's doing on a much deeper level, and it's obsessive a bit.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

So the problem is all parents let their children go. Right. And they don't seem to have nearly as much trouble about that as an older sibling that raised their younger sibling.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

I think the idea for a parent is that you're raising this child to go into the world. But that's not the mindset of an older sibling raising a younger child. And of course, I've never raised my younger siblings, which is awesome because everything would be a lot worse if I did. You don't want to be Oriel. No. I don't want to be possessive or anything. And I'm also honestly the most negligent older sibling I could possibly have. Like they can take care of themselves. See ya. But yeah, she just doesn't understand until that Psyche's gotta grow up. Because she's married. I mean, that's the thing. She's already married. This is the next question. Why does Psyche give in to Oru?

SPEAKER_02 15:04

Yeah. Not that she was put in a hard spot. She needs to call to her husband and be like, oh tell me. I mean, I think she's scared Oriel will die.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

I know in some versions like of the myth, like dramatic retellings, there's always been that arrow. So, like, why didn't you tell me? Oh. Once he realizes what Psyche's done, he's like, Why didn't you tell me these things? I'm your husband, am I not? These are things you tell your h your spouse, and it is just this big deal because she neglected trust.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Yeah. Well, that's a great point.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

So maybe Psyche could have done it differently, y'all are saying that's and she overall is a horrible person. I know. I I don't even like her anymore. Sad. Okay, the job of a wife is to submit to her husband. And your husband is your most intimate friend, the most important person in your life. It's just this intimate relationship of soul and body and everything. But that is not the relationship with your sister. Your sister could be your best friend. Yeah. But they are not your husband. They do not live with you. They do not understand you probably like the same way. And they are honestly not in charge. Right. Your husband is the in port in charge of you and in charge of your house. And it is so crucial that she understands that Arule has no control over her. Right. I mean, I don't think Psyche would die. I honestly think she's partly immortal now. Oh, I think I may be. But it would have been better for Arule to attack her. Because like someone would have intervened.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

But the problem is Orul maybe just would have killed herself. It'll be pretty tragic if you were like, No, I'm not going to your sister. Okay. And you have to watch your sister kill herself. And and she's pretty serious. I mean, she almost died. She could have died from the armwind. Yeah. Psyche's just furious, you know. But basically, Psyche says, you know what? I'm going to do it because I trust my husband more than you. He'll forgive me and you won't. So I do think Psyche was wrong. Like y'all are saying, she probably should have trusted her husband so much that she just told him straight out.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

And she said, Hey, can I please look at you?

SPEAKER_02 17:12

My sister thinks you're a monster. Exactly. That would be the most trusting thing.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

If Psyche just told uh her husband, listen, my sister came to me today very distressed over my situation, and now I'm doubting. That would have been a oh, I see now you can't trust, so I will give you something to trust in. Even though she would be still be at fault for doubting, there's that sense of, oh, I see now that I can't do this anymore. You have to be able to see me so that we will have the same tr level of trust that we've always had now.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

That's true about all relationships in every area. You say, okay, I don't trust you anymore because I think of this. And then usually either they will put to doubt your fear fears or they will clearly show by their lying that they're wrong. So that's important in every aspect of your life to just be honest.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Right. And at what a level of trust it shows to say, I'm I'm struggling with this about you. And I trust that you're gonna have a response. I have a good feeling that you're gonna be able to explain this to me or prove this to me in some way.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Why won't the brute let himself be seen by Psyche? Which I know the myth may answer that, but we haven't heard the answer from the book. So Bardius says the only reason that he wouldn't let himself be seen is because he's a monster. And I think Fox kind of says the same. But is there another option? That's what I was trying to think. What option is there? Why wouldn't he want to be seen?

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Maybe because he's too holy to be seen. Like God with the Jews, he couldn't fully be with them, but his presence would be with them in the Holy of Holies. So maybe it's like that same principle. I can be with you, I just can't be seen because I'm this glorious being and I'll blind you.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

So it's not a problem with the brute, it could be a problem with Psyche. Yeah. She's not able to handle the vision.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Yeah. That's a really good answer. Psyche needs more umph to her. She's physically really powerful, but she needs more spiritually. And it was kind of rude of her to throw the virginity over her face was drawing body.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

That was like, well, sister, you wouldn't understand. Because and I don't think I took that as like her being rude. I think Oriel just took offense to it as an attack on her ugliness. It was just a like a true like you wouldn't understand because you don't know like what intimacy is. Uh-huh. So don't try to force something on me when you don't know the whole story, right? But Oriel takes it as offense.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Yeah. You have to be careful with all advice you give everybody because you will never know the complete story. When someone asks me for advice, I'm like, okay, I this is what I might do, but I don't know everything. Because they could be a secret alcoholic.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

The aspects that I use are not usually something like that. Keep that in the back of your mind.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

I've got on my list the king's lion hunt, but I meant it more of like a new revelation about his personality. So in the third chapter, there's this uh news that lions have come back into Glom, but not in the mountains or near the city. It's they're pretty far out. So Oriel takes this as like a uh umget being traitor, like she wasn't fully satisfied. She just wanted Psyche for this little time. Now she's gonna go back to her old ways. But the king, he's like overjoyed. There's lions, we get to hunt, you know, like the oh no, the poor dogs and herdsmen. We must go hunt the lions.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Yeah, that just reminded me of like Gaston and the beauty of the beast. Kill the beast! This was weird when Oro first comes back to Psyche. She says, So let me for a prophetess. Yeah. And Oriel's like, What? I had to go back and look. And Psyche had said, I don't think the king will be a problem for you for a few days. Wink wink. And then she finds out the the lions have come and brought him away. There's another evidence that something is going on here, and that Oriel's like, I'm not gonna think about this right now. I need to go forward with my plan. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

She's kind of reminds me of Meredith and Brave. Yeah. Unthinking, just action, bad decisions. You're like just forward with our bad decisions. It's just I mean, but I don't think Oral will have as good of an ending.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

You know, Oral would not make it in a Disney movie because how could you make her so ugly?

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Oh no. I've never read a book where the main character is ugly. It's just a really hard thing to do. Now, why did he do that?

SPEAKER_02 22:07

It has to be important because he keeps bringing it up. Why make Oriel so ugly?

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Is it because her sister was treated so well, so she gets fantastical viewpoints? Like people are good. She's got this pretty per privilege. But Oriel, she's treated like scum. The king hates her. She has to hide her face with a veil so that people don't make fun of her. That pushes in on the oh, the world is actually awful. The gods have cursed me. The gods have not blessed me. Like Psyche. I think it's this uh big thing of like blessed versus cursed, but Oral doesn't see the blessings because she refuses to, because she she's this ugly, it's this outward representation of her soul. I have another quote.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

I really like Psyche in this part. This is uh after Oriol does her greatest act of manipulation, and Psyche shows a lot of strength actually of soul and a character, but she says, You are indeed teaching me about kinds of love I did not know. It's like looking into a deep pit. I'm not sure whether I like your kind better than hatred. She says Oriol loves her, but I think she doesn't. It's possession. Because how you wouldn't kill someone you loved. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Oriole sees Psyche as this uh possession. She's very selfish because I don't know how to say it, but she doesn't love her. She's just obsessed with her because oh, we had all these good times together, and now I want those good times again. I want Psyche back, I want this beautiful thing in my life, and it's nothing to do with Psyche's happiness, it's nothing to do with Psyche's situation, it has to do with Orioles, and she just wants to make her own better, and that's why she's so possessive. Yeah. Going back to what you said, you've got to think about old Geller.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Oh yeah. Well, that's the weird thing about animals. I was just saying this. Oh man, y'all, we we were Well, I'm reading Little Bridges with the younger two, and literally the saddest thing I've ever read in a book. It wasn't about someone killing an animal. So this little boy who he's riding on horse basically is trying to get over a river in a flood. The horse leaps onto the bridge and goes through it with one of his legs, and the flood water is already up to the bridge. It sweeps the horse over, breaks his leg. I might cry again. And the horse is like laying there with its nostrils up, trying to breathe. And the boy swept off down the river, but he finally gets out of the rushing water and hears the horse like screaming. And so he said it just tore him in two. He could not handle that. And so he runs over to the bridge, jumps on the horse's neck, and drowns the horse because they could have never gotten him out. The horse was just in agony. And I mean, I am like sobbing. All of us are like crying. I never I never would have read this book, okay, if I had known. It was so sad. And still just the saddest thing I've ever read. But it's sad, but it's easier for me to handle because I do believe that was the best thing for the horse. Like I said, they could never have gotten that horse out. The horse already had a broken leg. So it was the best thing for the horse. You may kill it, but you can't do that to people. Can you? Maybe we all agree. You can put down an animal in love. But can you put down a person in love?

SPEAKER_01 25:41

There are situations and medical issues like uh someone's brain dead, and you're just trying to keep them alive, and people have to be like, all right, we have to let them go. Uh-huh. They're never gonna be fully functional again. Their brain isn't working, they're dead. So you gotta pull the plug, and that's kind of a form of putting them down. And so I know that happens a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

So that is withholding treatment. You're not actually drowning the horse, but you're saying we're not gonna rescue. And usually it is a case where we can't, but we could try to rescue this person, but it's not gonna work. So withholding treatment is a little different than shooting the person. Yeah. They're really sick, let's just shoot them. You know, that's different, right? Which that's an issue in the world, you know, that I've brought up to you all. The um it's called euthanasia or doctor-assisted suicide, where it's legal in Canada and some other countries, and maybe parts of the US, actually. I'm not sure. But where you can say, Let's put them down. But I think that's wrong 100%.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

There is almost no it's time to kill a person you love because we're not in a fantasy novel. No, we're not. And fantasy, it would make more sense. So here's an here's an option, okay? You got someone with a severe fever and a broken leg, and you're running away from some orcs. What do you do with the person? You know you can't carry them. You're going on a cliff. What do you do?

SPEAKER_02 27:11

You can see a hero saying, Yeah, I'm not gonna leave you to the orcs, I'm gonna shoot you. Yeah, or the person themselves saying, Just kill me now. Oh, definitely that. Now that we see that a lot in history. Yeah, just kill me now. Saul, I think King Saul was like, Don't leave me to the Philistines.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Just kill me. So he committed suicide because no one was gonna kill a king, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Okay, the problem with that is you are cutting God and his ability to do amazing things out of your story. So, yeah, the orcs are coming. You're like, well, they're gonna capture him. Maybe, right? You don't know. There may be an earthquake. So you've got to like leave the person and trust to the act of God. I'm sure we can think of stories where it has happened. Like there is an act of God or some crazy situation where the person actually lives.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Dusex Machina is what it's called. God of the machine. Yes. It's uh like a plot device, usually. It's we're on the brink of despair. What are we gonna do? And then reinforcements come in and this crazy thing. It happens a lot in the Wing Feather saga with Artham. Like he constantly swoops in, boom, we defeated the people.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

See, that's the problem with the some bo what you've got to have a defeat at some point, in my opinion. Because you just it's just really lame to get saved every time. But it needs salvation at the end. Yeah. So maybe little defeats, right? In Great Ember, the Harbone Citadel gets destroyed. And that is the most heart-wrenching thing. It's just you cannot abandon the people. Because you got these four, four fresh warriors that come in and they're trying to save this like 20 group of survivors. The main character sees this nurse trying to take care of these two little children. He's like, I'm gonna save the nurse. And so instead of abandoning them, they stay there and fight while the nurse dies because it doesn't work. And so the whole settlement is actually destroyed, and they don't save anybody except one little kid.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

That defeat actually makes the victory better, right? In that story, because you're like, Oh wow, this is what could have been for other places. Yeah, it was it was horrific, and yeah, it's really sad. Defeats show greater victory. Also, since the Bible says do not murder, then I think killing of people is is a hundred percent wrong. Yes. And living in that constraint, saying, Well, whatever we do, we could can't murder people, it leaves room for God to come and swoop in and save people that you don't expect. So, because we're not God, like we don't have that um ultimate decision of life and death or when it happens. So Oriel's way out of line. Yeah, that's my opinion. I I I appreciate Esther your illustration of would you leave your friend to the orcs? Because that sounds terrible. I would say no, except I wouldn't kill them. So yes, I guess I would. But that's how Oriel feels about Psyche's situation. She's living with a monster, and yes, she may seem happy now, but she's not always gonna be. Because who would be happy? I would just have keep checking on her, you know?

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Or uh you sure you don't want to leave and go to clone. Do you know what I would do with the orc situation? I would carry the person or just get all get captured. Uh-huh. That's definitely possible. Make your lust.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Yes. That'd be so hard. There's so many books where the hero is saying, like, you go on and I will fight, you know, behind you and then back. Sometimes they all die. Sometimes the hero escapes, sometimes they refuse to leave and they fight together. There's all kinds of different situations. That'd be very hard to decide personally.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

My favorite people are the ones who just hold the enemy back while the others escape.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

Yeah, it's phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

And you just cry because they all die. Yeah. And then there's this one line in Breedover says, Tell them we were brave, and the bomb goes. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

So maybe a sign that Oriel does not truly love Psyche is she's willing to kill her.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Two. Would you be willing to kill your sibling over you think they're in this abuse situation? Would you go in and just murder them? No, no. Call the cops. What in the world? I just don't feel like Oriel she's going after the wrong person. Yes. She should have stuck into the palace at night and got up to the place while they were both sleeping and just bam! There's Jet, you know?

SPEAKER_02 31:39

I'm gonna end with uh predictions and or questions. I really, really want Oral to die.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

You were like her BFM!

SPEAKER_01 31:50

I think Psyche is gonna have to go back to Gloam after uh some of it after she sees her husband. He's like, no, you've betrayed me. So he kicks her out. So she has to go left cell living in Gloam. That would be terrible. Can you imagine?

SPEAKER_00 32:05

I think Bardia will die.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Oh no. You're probably right, Esther.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Why did you even? And his wife will be there crying. Or his wife will die, and Bardia will be sobbing, and you'll see, like, oh, they had a spiritual connection.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

And then uh Oriol will be like, why is he crying? You know, like he she was actually terrible to him.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Maybe Urul will murder his wife. Put her to death once she becomes queen or something. Will she become clean? I think she will.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Well, let's see if I mean she does. I don't know if she will in the book.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

You know, it's kind of weird. I hope the lions eat the king. That'd be awesome.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

That probably will happen. That's a great point. I want to know more about Graham. I think I like him.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Me too. He was actually really nice. He like did his duty. Well, he was scared, you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

Like he was terrified of Maru. This is the best light the king has been shown in. Yeah, when he's all excited and like you're like, oh, it's a you know, that's nice. I wonder if Psyche is about to hit fall from Grace, where all of this was kind of the paradise part, and then it will get worse and then come back up and be redeemed. Which it does end in tragedy, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Anyway, just wonder. Psyche going back to Golem kind of comes from the myth because that does happen. She uh Psyche has to go back to her kingdom, live with her parents. She's like in this deep depression, but in the original myth, her parents are good. Oh, so it's different. It's not I have to go back to an abusive father and an obsessive uh sister. And her sisters are horrible. Yeah, they're jealous.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

Yeah. Is or rule jealous? She is jealous. She needs to move in.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

Exactly. Marry the brute's brother. If she could change, then you know she could move in and like them have a different relationship, a friendship, you know. But she won't let go. Okay, this was fantastic. Can't wait to read more. Oh, yeah. I enjoyed listening to this discussion so much. My favorite part was how our moral imagination was stimulated to make us think of alternative ways situations could have been handled and the constraint of ethics. I seriously love this book. Join us next time as we discuss chapters 15, 16, and 17. Enjoy reading.