The Dark Side of Regency England (Why Wilberforce Had to Fight It)

We read "Amazing Grace: William Wilberforce and the Heroic Campaign to End Slavery" by Eric Metaxas—and it completely unmasked the reality of the Regency Era! In this episode, we dive into the intense struggles of the abolition movement in England, William Wilberforce’s profound turn to Christianity, his ultimate political friendship with William Pitt, and his lasting impact on British society. 

If you are obsessed with Regency Era history, Jane Austen's world, powerful biographical stories, or the abolition of slavery, this episode is tailored for you!

Add to your TBR! Grab our list of Favorite Books Here:  https://www.growingfruitfulfamilies.com/classic-books-podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We would love if you guys went down below in the comment section and clicked on our freebie. Our freebie is a list of all of our 10 favorite books combined. So you can find out what we like best and what you should read next.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Like, it's so good.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

It's so good.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

It was under 300 pages.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Yeah. That is crazy. Yeah, and we got so much out of it. Definitely one of the most underrated heroes of all time. Hey everyone. Welcome to this podcast for all who want to read deeply and get wisdom. I'm your host, Angelica Cable, a homeschool mom of three with a passion for discussing literature. In today's episode, I chat with Adeline, who is 15, and my daughter Esther, who is 14, about the incredible biography of William Wilberforce, entitled Amazing Grace, written by Eric Pataxis. Let's dive into this passionate conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

I think William Wilberforce is the most underrated historical figure. He was so amazing. He was a man of faith, and he had so many great friendships in his life, and he just completely changed the world as we know it. He changed the Victorian era as we know it, which led to amazing uh things in our time.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

So my first thoughts on the book were oh my goodness, this book is awesome. So I walked into it and Eric Metaxis just took me away. And I was like, oh, this is probably maybe the best author I've ever read this year. I was like, what religion and politics mixed up, and it was just so crazy. And I'm fascinated by theology, and I'm huge on theology, while setting it. And so learning so much about the British politics, the British culture, and even the British religion at the time was so fascinating. And I instantly knew I was gonna love the book.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

One really cool way that Eric Mataxas set up the book is that he brought in the hero before the challenge. So overall, I would say the book is about abolition, or you could say it's about slavery, but it wasn't really in the beginning, and it got you attached to William Wilverforce first and his personal story, and then it brought in kind of the horrors of slavery and how these were conquered. And I thought it was so perfect, especially for you all, because y'all were like, I don't want to read anything about slavery. Like, no. Yeah. And so having a hero-focused book on such an awful topic, I thought is brilliant. And I think that's a great way to study history. Like you study through the hero, and so you do hear the uh brokenness that they're addressing, but you're really you have the hero always there, and so it's not as depressing.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

I found it so cool that Wilberforce, as he grew in his faith, his uh morals grew too. After he accepted Christ, that's when he became passionate about abolition. Yeah. And so that goes to show that God is really the one who gives humans these amazing morals that we're supposed to have, and that's why we have this collective, oh, murder is bad, oh slavery is bad, you know. And uh I think that Wilberforce is a great just example of that. And uh even through what he called the great change in his life, that was probably the most interesting to me. Like that was pretty beginning after he graduated college, he went through this thing he called the great change, and that was he accepted Christ. And that was really what you're talking about, the setup getting attached to Wilberforce before abolition was introduced. Yeah. And that was definitely like a very like attaching thing.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Along those lines, yesterday in the sermon, so our pastor is preaching through Ezra, and we did an intro last week, and yesterday we actually started it. And so we decided the first chapter of Ezra, and how King Cyrus was placed by God in that situation to send back the Jews to Jerusalem after the perfect amount of time so that the land could have a Sabbath. So I think that this is a perfect demonstration of how God puts people in the world, in politics, in these situations, and influences them in the correct manner to actually be able to accomplish his will, no matter who they are. What they are, Cyrus was no great guy, honestly. You look at history, he was not a Christian, he was not a Jew even, and he wasn't even really worth anything. He was just a pagan, and I'm sure he's not going to heaven or anything, but God completely used him to do that to accomplish his will, and that is exactly what this entire book is about. He uses Wilberforce, he uses his talents, he uses his attitude, he uses his speeches all to get rid of the slavery and the reformation of banners.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

He even uses his friends, like that's about to say, yeah. Yeah. Uh W William Pitt um was Wilberforce's best friend of all time. And uh after his great change, no Wilbur uh Wilberforce was a devout Christian. Pitt was not. He was uh he leaned more atheist, I guess. But um he still was very good friends with uh Wilberforce. And even after Wilberforce, you know, came forward and was like, Oh, I'm a Christian now Pitt, and if you don't want to be friends with me anymore, I understand. But Pitt signed off his note saying that he'll forever be his friend as affectionately and unalterably yours, W. Pitt. He used their friendship to achieve so much in abolition. Like even like the end, oh, after Pitt had died. I know that's kind of a spoiler for the end, but he he really used that.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Yeah, their relationship was one of our favorite parts, just seeing the story of like, so they were great friends, Wilberforce becomes a Christian, and then they're still friends, and then they started hitting some like major challenges and still were friends. But do y'all remember what some of those were? I think Wilberforce thought they should not continue in the war because it was just at that point an economic benefit. Yeah. Pitt wanted to continue.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Right. And so Pitt lost his office because of that.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

And then he died. Wow. I know there were a lot of situations like I think it was twice where that similar thing had happened. Uh Pitt was very passionate about one thing, but Wilberforce disagreed. Even if it was like on a milder scale, it felt like a betrayal for both of them. Like Wilberforce felt like he was betraying his friend, and Pitt felt like his friend was betraying him. And there was this huge chasm that would come between them at times, but it would always be filled eventually, especially because they had a big circle of friends that would help them.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

We liked seeing a severe disagreement, but then to remain friends. And that's like what a true friendship is. It's not always agreeing, but it's being able to disagree and still care for one another and think best of one another, even if someone has a different viewpoint. So it was really cool.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

So jumping back, we need to so we need to dive into Wilberforce himself. And so when he was young, he became uh reformed from the Church of England by his aunt and uncle, and he became a Methodist. And so he almost from birth he was given a gift to being around great people and great events, which is crazy. I wrote down when we first read it, I was so shocked. I wrote down a list of people he met before age 25. George Whitfield, Benjamin Franklin, William Pett Sr., Pitt Jr., Marie Antoinette, John and Charles Wesley, James Posswell, and Isaac Milner. All of these were crucial people that you've probably heard of. And he met many more that I just didn't think important enough to write down because I hadn't heard of them before. But yeah, he was so well connected. It was bizarre.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Also, that was just one of my favorite parts of the book. I felt like I understood the connections of history. I love the point you're making, Esther, and it's actually better than mine that God had put him in such a well-connected place. But just for my own understanding, it was so nice to read how he connected to all the other history that history that was happening around him. And it that I mean, I feel like bet more than any other book I've read, I understood better the historical time period he was living in because I knew, you know, his relationship to Benjamin Franklin or John Newton. I just that was that's one of I think the greatest benefits that um I received from this book is just getting a such a uh more connected understanding of history, and it makes me engage so much more in all of that historical time period. So, way to go, Eric Mataxis.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Honestly, throughout all the history I've studied this year, you know, I studied ancient history, English history, American history, but this has given me the best understanding of this actual time period. Right. Because I uh understand the people. Yeah. So I understand the events that follow, but also understand the people. Our freebie is a list of all of our ten favorite books combined. So you can find out what we like best and what you should read next. It will definitely help us out. Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

So Woga Force's great change was probably one of the most interesting things. He went from a very social partying young man who kind of wasted his life in college, which is still very common today. It is not an uncommon thing. And he was just your average rich young man. When he found God, there was like this such a shift within him, and it was so visible. And so he went from this partying young man to a man who thought seriously about his career, who thought seriously about the state of the world. Like before that, he had no he didn't really care. But after he found God, he realized what a state the world was in and why he was so wrong before. And um he reevaluated his friendships and he weighed his heart, really. And it took him maybe a month, even to really fully accept God because it takes that long to just weigh everything he's had going on in his life. And then he went and taught to John Newton, and he was an older man, but he was a vital part of the Great Awakening, and um he really aided Wilberforce and pointing him in the right direction and telling him he needed to continue in politics to put God in politics, yeah, and so to put God's you know, morals in politics, and so that was it was so interesting.

SPEAKER_03 11:52

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

So we should definitely give a shout out to Isaac Milner, who was probably the person who reformed Wilberforce, and they were going through the same boat at the same time, and he was a pastor, a d probably the smartest man that ever walked the earth, and also the biggest man that ever walked here. So he just seemed like he'd be the dumbest person ever, because you see this hulking guy with a Yorkshire accent, and then all of a sudden he was given the the gr one of the greatest awards ever in the Royal Society. They went through France in this giant carriage up a bunch of mountains and talked about uh theology, and they both became Christians.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

So Isaac Milner had such a great characterization through like Eric Metaxis is brilliant. I'm gonna like say that over and over. But hysterical, like characterization of him, and really my favorite was of Fox and North. I mean, hysterical. They're these overweight men who continue to grow in size, and they're like two whales in a pod. That's brilliant. So I thought that was awesome. Just what made it such a good book. You get to know their character, even physical and the way people speak. Another, just one little point I wanted to bring out from uh Wilbur Force's great change that was so, I guess, interesting to me is that he first he came to the point where he knew he was condemned because of his sin, but he didn't know if he could be saved. So it was like he believed in God's um wrath and justice, but he didn't know if God would be gracious to him. And that is just such a removing moment in his life. And I think it's common, like when people are God is drawing them to himself and they are being saved. Um, and that's where uh John Newton could really come in because that man knew about grace, about his history.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

I think Wilberforce struggled with that thought his entire life. Yeah. Even his last words were doubt that he was saved. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

I think his son said, Your feet are on the rock.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Mm-hmm. And he said, I hope so. And then he had. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 14:06

But Metaxis, he said that he didn't think uh Wilberforce was full of doubt. He thought he was just in that frame of thinking where you don't want to say something overly confident. And so he was a very cautious uh speaker, even about his faith, but I felt very confident in his faith.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

So he was persuaded to continue in politics, and he decided that he would try to make do two great things. The abolition of slavery was number one, and then the reformation of manners. Everyone thinks that the 18th century was all George Washington's all white wigs, white powdered hair, flourishing dresses, and good food. But it was not. The amount of things that were horrible about this time period that were shocking, they were depressing, they were horrifying even. Okay. Here's a short little thing. Paragraph. Slavery was only the worst of a host of societal evils that included epidemic alcoholism, child prostitution, child labor, frequent public executions for petty crimes, public dissections and burnings of executed criminals, and unspeakable public cruelty to animals.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Awww. There were like the bullfights and stuff where the bulldogs you know, they were specifically bred for the sport, uh, these bulldogs would go after bulls, and that was they just watch this bull try to fight its way out of the situation, and the dogs would be hurt and the bull would die. And some of the dogs would even die, but it was terrible.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

It got to a point with the alcoholism that people would come drunk to parliament. Yeah. Imagine how humiliating. These are the guys that are literally ruling your country and they come drunk.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Yeah. So they said Wilberforce made goodness popular. Yes. Yes. That was very cool.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

So how did he do that? How did he actually reform manners and make goodness popular? He punished the small crime. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

The uh principle was if you punish small crimes enough, then it'll make the criminals scared of the big crimes, the punishments for those. So if murder, the only punishment for that would be like getting hanged or going to jail for so long. Nobody's scared of it. But if the uh punishment for stealing is going to jail for so long and set up just kind of a slap on the wrist, people would be less likely to try and steal because what's the point in it if you're just gonna go to jail?

SPEAKER_02 16:57

And then if you stop them from stealing, you stop them from murder. It kind of like redirects society where you're not gonna let them become hardened criminals before you punish them.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

So making them scared at uh an early stage, that's the best way to prevent any uh uh huge criminals.

unknown 17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

This is my philosophy on parenting and as a teacher. Like I decide, no, I'm gonna hold the line strict, you know, like early, not late, and let things get out of hand. And it's just very effective, I think. I love the punish the misdemeanors. I just think it's brilliant. So I guess what was so meaningful is he pursued the goal of abolit abolition for like years with so many disappointments, thinking, oh, it's gonna pass this year, and then he would have a huge setback. Anything else we want to talk about? Gradually. Okay, yes. Let's tell oh gradually tell us about that, Adam.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Okay, so uh right as they were really going to do it, well, this man gets up there and he uh tries to be a mediator, and that's a horrible thing to be when it comes to abolition, right? So he's trying to make a sort of the people who didn't want to be abolition. Like eventually they would stop importing slaves and uh exporting and importing slaves, but it would have to happen gradually. So over the course of five years, it would get less and less. But that wasn't enough. Wilberforce knew that uh he would rather not have it at all because uh then there were so many people that would be imported and exported in just those few years, and even if it's not as many, that's just a terrible thing. But um Pitt got up there and he gave this heart-wrenching speech about abolition, and it was just so lovely, and that convinced a lot more people to join out the abolition side. Yeah. But it didn't pass, it did not pass. No, they're so close is when they achieved abolition. Because uh it was after Pitt died, I think, and uh the next prime minister came, but he started in the House of Lords instead of the House of Commons, and then abolition was achieved. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

I thought that was when they were like twenty more years after that. Like I thought it was a huge setback. Yeah because I think five years, like it was supposed to happen within five years, but within five years, maybe was the French Revolution or a war broke out and so the way that the French Revolution really destroyed the abolition liberty, liberty, basically no gods, no la lords, no laws, no kings.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

And it was horrible. You probably have already heard of that. So I don't need to go into all the details. But they went so far as to behead all their lords, all their kings. It was horrible. Their freedom was just anarchy, mob. Yeah, oh it was horrible. It was there was nothing good about it.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

So when England heard what was happening in France, heard their war cry, and saw the result of that, like how did that affect England?

SPEAKER_00 20:00

They became almost even more conservative and old-fashioned because they saw this is what happens when people move forward. This is what happens when we actually give freedom to slaves and or something like that. So they're like, okay, we do not want any reforming, we do not want any change in our country, we do not want to s have to end slavery. The French Revolution really messed up everything.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Wilbert Force at 70 years old was homeless. Yes. I mean, after being wealthy his whole life, and so he said, Well, well, this is wonderful. I get to live with my children the rest of my life and have these great conversations. Like, I'm so glad I'm bankrupt, you know. But saw that God was good, and uh, that was really cool. And he's like, What more could you want? So on July 26th, 1833, abolition was declared in Parliament, and that was eight because of Wilberforce, just an incredible life that he lived. And I guess let's finish with um your greatest takeaway. And mine is right on that topic.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

That he said he was so thankful to God who led him to this long and noble battle, his persistence, he was so persistent, no matter how many times his attempts failed, like just utterly, he would pick himself back up and write a new bill. Like he was he would never give up, ever. And that was amazing.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Thank you guys so much for listening to this awesome podcast on Eric Metaxas' Amazing Grace. We had such a blast reading and discussing this one, and we really hope it goes on your to-be-read list. We will be taking a break for the month of July from our podcast, and we will jump back on in early August, most likely, with our Aeneid by Robert Fagels. We really hope you guys jump on that one as we go book by book and just our deep discussions. Have fun reading and make sure to check out our free.