50 Years of Architecture: A Conversation with Norman Askins

In this episode, architect Norman Askins reflects on a remarkable 50-year career and the evolution of architecture in the American South. Norman shares the formative experiences that shaped his architectural philosophy, including encounters with legendary architects Philip Shutze and James Means, and discusses the friendship he has with the 25 firms who roots trace back to his office. 

And as he approaches his firm's 50th anniversary, Norman shares his vision for the years to come. The conversation, led by AH&L Editorial Director Lauren Iverson, is both a retrospective on an extraordinary career and a masterclass in enduring design, leadership, and professional longevity. 


What You’ll Hear on This Episode:

• 00:50 Welcome & Introduction
• 01:20 Childhood in Birmingham, Norman's early architectural interest, and moving to Atlanta in the 1970s
• 06:00 Norman rubs elbows with famed architects Philip Shutze and James Means
• 08:30 Five decades of Atlanta's architectural evolvement through Norman's eyes
• 15:45 Norman speaks about the 25 architectural firms that have formed underneath his umbrella
• 17:11 Fifty years of Norman Davenport Askins, Architects: What's next for the firm (hint—a potential rebrand?)
• 18:30 How to succeed in the design industry? Stay away from trends
• 20:00 The two most challenging projects of Norman's career
• 23:00 After 50 years, these are the things that still excite Norman in the world of architecture 
• 25:15 Norman shares how he approaches challenges in a communications-driven business
•  28:00 What's on the horizon for Norman Askins
• 30:00 Closing notes 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to In Residence, a podcast from Atlanta Homes and Lifestyles. I'm Elizabeth Rawls, the publisher, and I'm Lauren Iverson, the editorial director. In this miniseries, we'll speak with the futures and the legends of interior design here in Atlanta. You can find each of our interviewees in our print edition of Atlanta Homes and Lifestyles throughout the year or online at AtlantahomesMag.com. Come on in.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Welcome to the In Residence Podcast. Today's guest is someone whose work has profoundly shaped the architectural landscape of the Southeast. Norman Askins, founder of Norman Davenport Askins Architects, has spent nearly five decades designing homes that honor classical tradition while feeling livable and enduring. Come on in and hear a story. Norman, thank you so much for being here today. We are so excited to have you on our In Residence podcast. We have a lot to cover, but this is a really big year coming up for you in 2027. I think you're celebrating your 50th anniversary. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

And you've just been named an Atlanta Holmes and Lifestyles legend of design and so many more exciting things happening for you, which we're gonna chat all about. But I kind of want to take it back to the beginning and talk a little bit about your upbringing.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Sure, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

I know you were raised in Birmingham around a million beautiful historic homes, architectural details. I know that some of those homes were some of your own families, extended families, whether it's, you know, classic Greek revivals, um, Victorian, such like that. So tell me a little bit about how your interest in architecture sparked.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Well, I guess I've been interested my entire life. Uh I I even decided I wanted to be an architect by 10 years old, which is amazing. Then I stuck with it. I had a moment where I got off the bandwagon when I in 1953, when I watched Queen Elizabeth's uh coronation, and I told my mother I wanted to be king of England. I changed my mind, and she said, I don't think that's gonna happen. Maybe about a sick to architecture.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

A boy can dream, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Yeah, yeah, right. So anyway, that was my only bump in my career. Uh where but anyway, so I've uh and my family was very supportive, you know. My mother was interested, always been interested in design and for antiques and furniture, and so I was uh I was constantly being dragged around to different houses and because I was interested. And um, my grandmother lived in a small town in Alabama, and I that with a whole well, I think a hundred Greek Revival houses. She lived in one, and my aunt lived in another one, and it was so fun, you know. And one aunt lived in a arts and crafts house, and so I was exposed from day one. My grandfather in Florida lived in a Victorian house in Fernadina, which is such a you know, a completely different kind of house. And so I had a you know, I just was always interested, and then I got on my bike and I lived on my bicycle, and so I would ride around looking at the new houses and going through them, and then there were lots of beau Birmingham has beautiful houses. Yeah. A lot of people don't know that, but I think it's much more people are more aware of it now than they used to be. So full of great houses. So I was always interested in old houses my entire life. So um so it was just a natural thing, and I've always stuck with it. And um fortunately I got in Georgia Tech, and that was great. Modernist school, you understand. So um, and then I went on to UVA and got architectural history degrees, because I was always interested in history, and then I worked at Williamsburg, which of course was the most amazing thing in the world to work in the architect's office. So we got to work on a lot of historical stuff. So that's kind of the way it went. And uh it just, you know, by the time I ended up in Atlanta again in 1977, um, you know, I I was well equipped to get ready to go. That's when I started my practice.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Right, right. So what kind of encouraged you to come from all of these different locales to Atlanta?

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Well, um, a friend of mine who was also interested in architecture when we'd come south, I lived in Philadelphia, uh in Pennsylvania at the time, outside Philadelphia, and we would he would he told me one time we we would uh stop to visit with them on the way to Birmingham from Atlanta, you know. You had to stop in Atlanta for everything. So he told me, he said, Norman, you uh uh I I know for a fact that I mean there are no not going to be many classical people left in Atlanta. You know, Shutzee is not working, Jimmy Means is you know toward the end of his career, and all these people that had been around for years, you know, and he said, This is the perfect time for you to come to Atlanta. Yep. So I we went back to Pennsylvania, I fixed up my house, kept fixing it up, and you know, you know, we just moved to Atlanta and I in uh colonial homes, and after four months, I was on my own. I I got to teach at Georgia Tech a little bit, and I had a instantly had clients, it was a miracle, total miracle.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Right. I feel like that doesn't happen for everyone so quickly in their career.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Well, I had made some good connections in Atlanta, and uh I was the only one in Atlanta qualified to do historic preservation, and uh only one really in Georgia. So the state of Georgia got me a lot of work through them because they needed, you know, preservation. Preservation was real hot then. And uh, you know, so I got to do a lot of small, small projects, but that paid the rent and it was great. So it all worked out, and then I got more and more. I got my first big house on Habersham. I made a sign, huge three by five foot sign. And on a busy street like that, that really helps. So name recognition.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

That's how you grow it. It's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

I mean, you can't just sit back and you know, you gotta go for it. So then I got other projects, and you know, it was it was amazing.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

I've always been shocked.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Well, that early influential time in your life, you know, I'm sure it had a lot of influence as you were going. Oh, yeah. And and as you were in Atlanta, you mentioned some of the architects that were around at the time, including Philip Schutze, which I feel like, you know, he's revered here in Atlanta. People love him, they know his houses, they know his buildings and such. And at this day and age, he feels kind of almost like this like lore or so, this person who existed and was on this enormous pedestal. But it wasn't so long ago that he was here and working in in the city, and you actually saw him around.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Well, when I I was at tech, I'd uh my professors, uh it was a very modernist school, but there were still these old timers there who had grown up in tradition, you know, doing traditional stuff. So they encouraged me, you know, to go meet him. So I thought, well, you know what the hell. So I I called him up one day. He was in the Candler building downtown, and I called him up and I said, Can I come down and meet you? I'd like to meet you. I'm a big fan of yours. And he didn't quite know what to say, but he said, sure, come on. So I went down there expecting, you know, I mean, he he looked just like I thought he'd look, you know, sitting in an office the size of a postage stamp, and all he had was stacks of magazines. And that's all he did all day was he wasn't working, he just was reading uh connoisseurs des arts English magazine and um country life and all those magazines. I don't think he was busy at all. But anyway, so I try he I thought he would be interested, the fact that I was interested in him and classical architecture. And then he told me, he said, Well, you'll never be a good architect because you are going to a modernist school.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

Of course, there was no choice. Everybody was bonus by by the 60s.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

So anyway, I just kind of ignored that and kept on going. And then I also met Jimmy Means, another wonderful architect. He was Jimmy Means was his draftsman. So he knew Jimmy, I don't think he had a college degree. I don't think he had a degree in architecture, I should say. But he did great looking houses. And I used to go see him occasionally. He was on East Paces Ferry, and I'd go up and chat with him. He's so nice, real nice guy, wanted to talk. And when I first started my practice, he was so generous to me and said, if you need anything, where to get old wood, where to get old bricks, beams, just call me and I'll tell you the sources. I mean, he couldn't have been nicer. And he died with within a year or so after I met him. So that was real sad.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

But he was so nice to me, and he didn't have to be at all.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Absolutely. Well, I mean, I know that that's kind of how you try to be with people as well, kind of this next generation. But going back to that a little bit from the beginning of your childhood influences and then having, you know, your schooling and then moving to Atlanta and starting your firm in it was in 1977, I believe. You've done so much, but you've also been able to see those early years and the 70s and how Atlanta has transitioned and evolved.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Oh, it's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

So you've really gotten a front row seat to that. Neighborhoods have changed, tastes have changed, everything has changed. So tell us a little bit about that evolvement.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

Well, when I came to uh start my practice, uh, Williamsburg style was still hot as a firecracker, but it was just on the it was beginning to fade. So I started out working, you know, more in American, you know, colonial uh kind of influence. And that's what people really wanted and they loved it at the time. And it but it got overdone as everything else does. So then the next kind of style was French, kind of I noticed that that was the next thing. And so I was, you know, I'd been to France and all that. So and I had all I I collected books like crazy. So uh books are everything. Yeah. Nowadays they have the internet, but back then they didn't have it. So uh anyway, so I I loved all that too, because it was classical, you know, it's all the same thing, just changing the details, you know, basically the same rules and everything. So I did I worked, I did a lot of stuff in the French style, then it evolved on into ugly, you know, a lot of ugly stuff, which I wouldn't. Which I wasn't interested in. So we ended up doing so I I liked, I had I self-taught myself really, and um, that's why I I have so many had so many employees. I have 25 firms out of my firm now. And uh so I I think I I didn't nobody taught me how to do the classical stuff, so I taught myself, and you know, but I mean I learned a lot it, you know, of course, in my education I learned a lot, but also I, you know, I I I read a lot, traveled a lot, that kind of thing, which really helps. And so I think I became uh when I had employees that didn't know uh one thing, like Young Pak was one of my second employee, and uh he got off the bus one day and walked to my house, and he was a baby, you know, right out of school. And so uh he didn't know the first thing about classical architecture, but I don't even know how he knew about me. But anyway, I told him to sit down at that table and let's get working. He said, When can I start? I said, right now, sit down, take your coat off. So he was an extremely quick learner. Uh, I mean, he caught on real fast and he was passionate about passion's everything really in in our profession. And uh I I think a lot of people don't do that well because then they have no passion about what they do, and they they kind of will just, you know, okay, that'll do, you know. But I mean, we've always researched everything, and and I've I've got now I've got, see, back in the day I had no one to talk to because I was by sort of by myself. So uh what's so fun now I've got Notre Dame guys, I've got over the years I've had all these wonderful influences coming into my office that I would have never had before. And they like these Notre Dame guys are amazing, they see things differently than I do, and we all see the same thing, but I mean they have a different approach to everything, which is great. And all my employees have brought different information, different things to my office, which is so wonderful because I've think we kind of specialize in not specializing in any particular style. You know, we do Italian stuff, you know, tutor, you know, cottages. We do lots of cottages. I love cottages. We do a lot of mountain stuff, we do beach stuff, you know, all just everything. So that's been made by uh I think my practice very rich, that we can do different things and not don't stick to one only one style, which so many people do.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

And we are our I refuse to be trendy. I think that's that's the other thing. I think that's a lesson for these young people. Don't don't fall into this trend stuff because it's not gonna last. And then you get stuck, you know, with a st some style that nobody wants anymore.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Well, that's so unfortunate because you do see some of these houses these days that are being built and designed, and five years down the road it's already feeling dated. And so you put in all this effort and money and time in these homes that then you're gonna have to revisit, make it a little bit more classic, um, that can stand the test of time for the same.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Oh, when I see them, I remember when so many houses in Atlanta were built, you know, and uh and they were thought, you know, thought to be a wonderful thing at the time, and now they're being torn down left and right because they were so ugly.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

You know, just plain ugly. There's no other word for it.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

So the lesson is just do things pretty and it will last.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Well, just stick with the classics, and you'll and and even today, of course, we do we do uh m more modern classicism, you know, more today, you know. I mean, nobody wants a slavishly original house like they did when I started. They they loved all the French interiors and the English interiors that we did. I mean, I loved it too. But people don't want that anymore as much. Yeah. You know, it's it's uh so even my old clients who are now moving to smaller places or apartments, we do a lot of those, and they want it kind of simplified, you know, and I call it younged up, you know, so it doesn't look like old lady, old lady looking, you know, because everybody's done nobody wants that.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

I love it. Well, you can still do, and that's kind of something that I love that I'm seeing people embrace more, is you can have these traditional classic homes that are have a mod or do have a modern edge to them that maybe live better for today. Absolutely. And that's possible to do it, but you've got to trust in the experts who know how to craft that for you to make it feel seamless.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

And houses now uh back of house has become hugely important, you know, like uh dog dining rooms and uh, you know, um, you know, mail rooms, Costco rooms, you know, Martha Stewart rooms, all that kind of stuff that people want, you know, drop-offs, you know, for their children, drop off their their sports equipment, all their clothes, don't leave it on the island in the kitchen. So there's a the the tail wagon, the dog is really true today, and everybody wants really nice master bath bedrooms and bathrooms and the kitchens and the new living rooms. So everybody's adjusting that. Look at this house. Absolutely. And so everybody wants you can't keep people out of the kitchen, there's no way. So make it nice. It's the best. Put the ugly stuff in the back kitchen and uh shut the door, and everybody thinks you're perfect.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Exactly. Well, I think I need a dog dining room in my future house because that sounds like the best thing I've ever had.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Well, you know, that's a mess. Yeah, it's always a mess.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Always.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

And so sometimes we even slope the floor and have a slot drain where you can actually hose the dog off. That's you know and hose the floor off.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

It's true, like well, I think we brushed over something a little bit too quickly that I want to go back to, and the fact that you said you have 25 firms that have come out after you have after they've worked underneath of you.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

Well, I I I basically I think because I had to teach myself, I love teaching other people. So I've become like a kind of like a teacher. And I I've uh and I I've learned that um I I unlike so many firms, they don't want your the employees to be involved with the clients. I I think that's ridiculous. I think why not have been involved with the clients? And that's how you learn. And they a lot of people don't know even who works in the firm. I I love for them to go to the job site and know the contractor, know the clients. And so you learn, that's how you learn. And um so that's why I and they end up having in my office, end up having a little many firms within the firm, even though I'm still very involved, but that allows them to move out on their own.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Gives them a platform of it.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and I'm I I'm always we're all friends still, you know, pretty much. And I I still like most all my employees, you know. And they've gone from from Massachusetts to the uh Puerto Rico. They're uh got a praxis everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

That's amazing. And some of those people are what Stan Dixon, Stan, Yongpack, Bill Lichfield, some of the Atlanta players.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

All kinds of people in Atlanta, yeah, which I've all are doing great. I'm all proud of all of them. They all do a good job.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

You talk a little bit, you know, about these firms that have come out from you and your business working with you, but you have a really fantastic team internally, like you kind of mentioned.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Very lucky.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

You have Jeffrey on your team who had prompted you to rebrand recently as Norman Davenport Askins Architecture or Architects Plural, which is the first time in almost 50 years that you've rebranded.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

I've never had a part, he's my part partner now, and he's buying my business, actually.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Tell us more about it.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

So uh on my 50th anniversary, which will be next year, we're going to uh kind of change the name of the firm and then kind of I'm gonna I don't know exactly what we're gonna do. We hired somebody to help us figure out how to do it, but it's not gonna be a big splashy thing. It's just gonna be a transition, you know, from one generation to another. But I'm planning to work till I croak. I'm gonna die on my drafting board if possible, if I can arrange that.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

That's the dream, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Yeah, I still work every day.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

And I love every minute of it. You know, it's just fun. Absolutely. When it's not fun anymore, I'll quit.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

And that day I would I would like to see what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

Because every day is still fun. You know, some days are not perfect, but you know, mostly it's fun.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Well, we're talking so much about these different architects in the industry, and right now I feel like there's kind of a boom with the next generation of designers.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

It's wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Architects. So I'm sure they would be eager to hear some advice from you just about how to stand out from the crowd.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

It's the hardest, it's really hard, I think. Um, I feel like uh while we all look at trends, I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and tell you I don't look at all the magazines. Of course I do, and we all do, and it's fun. And I think you have to try not to get caught up in all this the trendy stuff. You can kind of do your own thing and g get it cleaner and not so trend, you know, avoid trends. I think decorators uh tend to be that way as well, you know. They they go for what's selling, which everybody understands that. But still you can do it a little bit better than everybody else, hopefully, and not fall into you know the pitfalls of you know, uh things that just five years later you're gonna hate.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Right. You know, and there's many things that I'm sure would would be into that category there that you see often.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

So many.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

It makes me twitch a little when I see it, and I'm like, I'm not, I have nothing to say.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

No, no, no, you it's just what is everybody's but some people, some clients really want the latest thing. Right. That's what they love and un and understand they don't get the big picture sometime, I think.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Well, over the course of you know, all these years, you've clearly transcended any trends. Um, you have a body of work that's grown tremendously. You have projects all over the country, potentially in other parts of the world as well, I'm guessing. So, what would you say is maybe a project that stands out as a highlight for you?

SPEAKER_02 20:09

It's just so hard to say because I love the people and I love the projects. It's just really hard to say, but I guess I've got two that were two of my most difficult, uh I wouldn't say difficult, most challenging projects have been uh one of them is in France, so an incredible house that I did with Bunny Williams, which is amazing. And uh that was so much fun, but I had to do everything metric, and I I could do metric. You can get your brain going with metric, it's it's hard, but you can do it. And uh like we worked with an architect over there, so I did all the design work and they did drew it up, and they were great to work with, but it was a major challenge, you know.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

I can imagine.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

And I never went to see the building.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

What?

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Until uh three years later, it was we went to lunch there with my daughter and my wife and all that. It was really fun.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

How did that feel to be in it and standing there? It was unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

I was supposed to go two or three times, and then things for some reason I never went, but I had great pictures, and the con uh the the builder wasn't great, and everybody's great, no English, of course, so that was another challenge. Because you use that translation app and Lord knows it wouldn't be a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

But that can get you in trouble sometimes. Big trouble.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

But anyway, it all worked out, it turned out great, and there were no con no problems at all. Then another one we did, I'd actually stand and I did it together at my office. Uh we this gigantic project in Ireland was it was a golf club that uh is uh the it was the big at the time it was the biggest project in Western Ireland. So it was this huge golf club with lots of uh, you know, people that had bought apartments there and then a lot of condos. So we did everything. And Jackie Lynham was the decorator. So we ha we were quite a team.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

The dream team there.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

We had the best time. It was so much fun. And um Oh my gosh, you can't imagine how much fun it was.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

I'd like to be on that project too.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Yeah, it was great. And then we would it was just outrageous. But it was fun. We loved it. And we did go over there like I think six or seven times. Uh, but I never saw it finish. But I I will one day.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Well, you gotta go pr play around or something.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

No, but I I can't I don't play golf. But anyway, it was you learned so much.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

And the Irish were a real challenge because they were famous for not being on time.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

So we would kill ourselves to get ready to go, and then we go over there and they hadn't done what they said they would do, you know, that kind of thing. But it was okay. It all worked out.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Well, also managing that from the other side of the pond, too, is tough.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

I don't know how it worked, but it did.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

And well, it always works out, right? Everything always works out in the world.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Well, we had a lot of, you know, people working on it. Absolutely. It and Jackie was there for I think three or four months putting it together.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

How amazing is she?

SPEAKER_02 22:53

She is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

She was interviewed this morning on our podcast as well. So you guys are back to back. I know you're great friends. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

We did tons of work together. It was fun.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Well, you've done so many different projects, like I said, across the world. You've worked with incredible people that you're mentioning here, including Jackie as one of them, and many more. What really still excites you about architecture today?

SPEAKER_02 23:14

Well, I mean where we just get so many challenges. You know, people call up, want some like we just finished a house at Sea Island that um I mean, they didn't know what they wanted exactly. So they just wanted some, but they expect us to do something really interesting. These people are not like everybody else, they're really into it. We've done several projects for them already. So so Jeff decided to get on the bandwagon. He he's from Florida, so he went to St. Augustine, and uh they have all that this earlier, you know, real early Spanish, you know, architecture there. Yeah. And uh so we inspired the whole house was inspired by St. Augustine. And so we created the storyline that at Sea Allen there was this old uh kind of early Spanish building that was there and was falling down, but we left some of the walls and built around it, so we have in the inside we have stucco walls, coquina walls that were really brand new, but it looks like an old, it was part of an old house. It is the coolest thing. It's got a balcony on the second floor, like so many St. Augustine houses had, and it's uh stuck on the bottom and wood on the top. You know, we we really studied it, and it's it's the coolest thing.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

I can imagine. It's fun to hear you talk about these projects and you can just see the light in your eye, how excited you get about it.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

It was just so and the clients are the kind of people that I mean, we're doing another house swim right now. And so they love they they challenge you without saying a word. You just know you're challenged to come up with something totally amazing. Right. And fortunately, that they do, they love what we do. So but that's a rare thing that you've got somebody that challenges you that to that degree.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Yeah, well, let's talk a little bit more about that actually, because that's something that I know a lot of professionals in the industry deal with is clients challenging them, whatever, big challenges, big or small. Like how do you approach those instances?

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Well, I'm just used to it. I mean, I I I well, first of all, the key thing in this business is you've got to listen. And I think I hear from so many people say, uh, well, you didn't listen to me. Well, I never get that. Because I write down notes, I listen to everything. I asked all the try to ask all the right questions, how people live, you know, what they like, don't like, blah, blah, blah. You know, all that usual stuff. And then I put a lot of thought into it. And believe it or not, I hit it usually on the first design pretty close.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

And that's unusual. Which is a miracle. Practice and listen.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

So, but you have to listen, and you have to pay attention to the property, the uh which way it faces, you know, north, south, east to west, that makes all the difference. You have to pay attention to views, you know, everything. You have to just really think it through before you give them something, because otherwise you look like a moron, you know. And I well well, actually, uh this morning before I left the office, uh Jeff had just come back from seeing some people, and they said, Oh my gosh, you listened to what we said. And he said, Well, of course I did. I that's what I'm supposed to do. And uh uh their previous architect had did something completely bizarre that had nothing to do with what they wanted. So, but you gotta listen. And and and you you don't have to agree with everything, but you can and you can talk people into not doing things that just are ridiculous. Right. You know, usually.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Right. Usually that's why you trust the experts.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

It's hard, but that's what you can do it. Yeah, it's not easy.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

So that's part of the game.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Absolutely, and I I think you're probably an expert at it at this point.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

I try to be, yeah. And most people like we all we're still friends usually, almost 99% of the time we're friends when it's over. And now I'm doing multi-generational, you know, people's grandchildren.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

Absolutely. That's gotta be a lot of fun, too.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

I just crazy, but yeah. Oh, and then a lot of people say, Well, you're getting so old. I I grew up in one of your houses, you've got to do a house for me. I said, Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Oh my gosh, that's so special. I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Doing one right now. A girl grew up in one of my houses. She said, I've got to have you work on this house.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Well, you're gonna be in the list of the Jimmy Means and the Philip Shutzes one day, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Well, I don't know about that, but uh but anyway, I've had a I've been had a a really fun career. I mean, I've never I don't think anybody has as much fun as I do. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

That's the only way you can do it.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Well you gotta have fun.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

And can't you have to take it seriously, but you still gotta have fun.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Definitely. Well, kind of to that note, I do want to bring it a little bit full circle for myself personally here. The last time that I had interviewed you was in 2022 for your ICAA Lifetime Achievement Award. And that was the first time I had interviewed you, and we were on the phone for an hour and a half, perhaps, and I had ended the or the interview with the question of, you know, what's on the horizon for Norman Askins. And your answer to this day has always stuck with me because it was so simple, but it it just held so much prominence to it, and you said just keep on keeping on. And I feel like that's such a testament to if you do what you love and what you're passionate about, you can do it forever. You said that yourself earlier.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

I I agree.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

And so I'd like to end this interview with just asking the same thing, and I know you've touched it on a little bit already, but what's next for Norman Sky?

SPEAKER_02 28:42

I I was willing to let my practice just stop one day, and then I thought, well, that's just ridiculous, you know. Because so then uh Jeff was in my office, and he's the only one of the only people that I felt like he has the same approach to things that I do, and he's not he knows he knows he he's he's real wise for his age, and so we just get along perfectly. So I thought, well, this will be a perfect thing. I love his family, and he's got a great wife, and she's an architect too, and two children. So he just seemed like the perfect person, and um, so I approached him with the idea, and I think he was thrilled to death. So sounds like we'll keep going. I love it for another uh which is rare. Yeah, use it doesn't work. Very few firms last to the next generation.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Right, and it's a legacy that's gonna keep on going.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

And why wouldn't it? You know, we're having fun, and about I'm I want I'm gonna now I'm gonna start including his name so he becomes uh you know, he's everybody knows him now, but a lot of people, you know, don't necessarily know him.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

Well so that's what my goal is now for the next year or so is to get let him become visually more of a part of my business.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Well, we're but I'm not planning on stopping anytime soon.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Never. I know you'll croak out on that duck. Too much fun. I love it. Well, Norman, thank you so much for sharing your perspective and more of your story.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

It's my pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Loved having you today.