Betrayal, Trauma, and the Man You’re Meant to Be - Part Two

PART TWO OF INTERVIEW 

In this episode of the Men’s Divorce Recovery Podcast, Dale sits down with Ralph Brewer to unpack the deep connection between childhood trauma, adult relationships, and the path to becoming a stronger man. Ralph shares how unresolved wounds can shape our wants, needs, and behaviors—often without us realizing it—until they surface through conflict or betrayal. The conversation dives into the emotional impact of divorce and infidelity, and what it really takes to move forward instead of staying stuck. Together, they break down the process of rebuilding identity, reclaiming control, and developing discipline and self-respect. This episode is a powerful guide for any man ready to confront his past, heal with intention, and step into the man he’s meant to be. 

Bible Verse Inspiration: Joel 2:25 — “I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten.”

Resources: https://helpformen.com

Email the Show: Hello@MensDivorceRecovery.org 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

And then before we get started today with the second half of the interview with Ralph at Brewer, I just wanted to step in with a couple of housekeeping items. But first off, I want to remind you all that we really want to hear from you. There is a link now in the show notes of every episode, and it should say fan send fan mail. And it's a hot link. And when you click on that, you can either send us a text from your phone or a voice message. And if you send us a voice message, um we can actually play it on the air. And it can be a question, a comment, a feedback, idea, thoughts you had. Um if you've been through one of these situations, anything that you can contribute, we want to hear from you and and try to make that part of our show, if at all possible. Um and and that's really helpful for everybody to hear, not just from Dale and myself and and the guests, but from everybody else, just so that uh folks know that that they're not going through it alone. The second announcement or second item of housekeeping is just a reminder that we are sustained off of your donation. We are a nonprofit organization. And uh you can uh uh contribute uh to us at www.menhivorcerecovery.org slash give. Let's go ahead and get started with this uh second half of the interview with Ralph. Here we go.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

But you know, when I hear you say that to me, it really speaks to um you know that that it's not an either-or situation. You're not choosing, it's a false dichotomy. You know, you choose this or this. There's a time to step up and and be strong. There's a time to uh to be stoic and a time to be passive and and accepting, welcoming is the key, is to know when to do all those things.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Such is life.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

As a Christian, you know, Christ emulates those things perfectly. You know, he knew who who to fight for, when to fight, what weapons to fight with, who to fight against, and who to protect, and when to do all that. All that, you know, the going going to bat at uh with all the right stuff is pretty cool. But it's so hard to do because none of us uh can do that perfectly. We are we are fallen creatures.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

And so and what hurts us, if I may, is in in part, in a big part of a lot of guys that I talk to, a lack of a father figure growing up.

SPEAKER_03 2:22

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Huge. And you're you're in the prison system now helping out the incarnate. I mean, just just you know, pull those guys. How many of you have a dad at home? Maybe one or two will raise their hand and a whole auditorium full of guys.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

It is stunning to see, and that really is the story of uh of uh you know American society in the last uh 40 years. Um there's a professor at the University of Maryland, I think, that just wrote a book called The Two Parent Privilege. And uh she wanted to call it the one-parent disadvantage, but she said I would get railed on so badly. And her she's actually an economist. And as she's just looking at the numbers saying, if you have two parents growing up, no matter you know, almost no matter what the situation, then that is privilege. But boy, it's a message that again goes against that the more liberal side of things that you should be able to have sex with that, with who you want, whenever you want, how you want, and not ever pay consequences. But being a having two parents means two people of opposite sexes have have made that commitment to each other to raise their children. This is the plan that God made, and it is it statistically, social science just shows is the best way. But you're exactly right. Of all the people and I'm literally surrounded with right now, so few of them have very few would have a good dad. Um, but but you know, if there was a dad in their lives, they were just not good examples either. So, yep. So, you know, you think of the three Ps of being a man, protector, procreator, and provider, you know, some of those, some people have argued that those uh those roles have been taken out certainly protector, we don't have to you know stand and fight procreator. Basically, if you can get uh artificially inseminated, you don't need that. And provider too has been greatly diminished. Not that doing all those things exclusively as a man is the way back to a more balanced view, but um, but there are way to ways to honor those roles in a family that's identity.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

What is uh chipping away at some of the identity, and it is it can be construed as well, guys. That's kind of your problem, it's not the problem of women, is the economics, which is uh the uh the ladies are beating the pants off of guys like in the universities, for example.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Uh there's uh in the corporate world, they're rising in the ranks and they're leaving a lot of guys behind. And we can see that that has pretty drastic effects on the old mating game. And so when you got a woman who's making $250,000 a year, uh, who she looks for in a mate typically is right around in her world, basically. People tend to match up with somebody in their little world, and when she looks around and sees nothing but a bunch of ladies, she's like, Well, this sucks. And it makes things a little tougher. And so we see a lot of ladies that are like, I'm gonna have to step down the old social hierarchy to find a mate. And uh, that seems to be a little tougher for the ladies than it is for the men. And that makes things a little tougher as far as keeping a relationship going year after year. And I say this as a husband of a woman who is a surgeon, a medical doctor. She's a surgeon, no less. So I know that world really well. And uh there's uh she's one of the other female surgeons that she works with. No, they're all men, so she's in a group of men there, so it's interesting. So you know, when I go to spouses of doctors, I'm like the lone guy there. So it's there you go.

unknown 5:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

Yeah, I think that dynamic has really impacted our young men in their 20s and 30s, and some of that dating apps, you know, the way that plays out. Um, gosh, I can't remember the guy that is, I think a Washington uh post who wrote the book uh Boys and Men, you know, really outlining that, you know, the the we've incentivized women into STEM. It's worked to some extent. You know, not all women want to be scientists, more men want to be engineers. That's just the way the male brain works.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

But um, but when you look at you know, the graduate school of college 60, 40 split, it's worked so well on that end of things. Uh, it's pushed a lot of young men out of that, out of that arena as a father of two sons. And I know the struggle they have with finding a pathway, finding a career, trying to kind of balance is college really worth it, what I want to do with my life. That was not my issue. I'm 60, almost 65. And when I was growing up, my whole pathway was very clearly set forth by my dad, and it was mostly driven by performance-based anger on his part, you know. Uh, and you know, I went to the greatest of atmospheres to be in, but it did work as far as achievement. Um, but anyway, so men. Well, you mentioned anxiously an anxiously attached man. That is a great, that's the first time I've ever heard that. Oh, really? Yeah, that one is a new one on me. So explain what an anxiously attached man is, and I think you're gonna a lot of our listeners will go, uh, that's me. So it is exactly right. We all need to pay attention now.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

So in the in the world of psychology, which I am not a psychologist by any stretch of the imagination, but uh in the world of psychology, oh, what's his name? Uh I'm the name is escaping right now. A psychologist came up with a theory called attachment theories decades ago, which is basically we observe how kids are attached to their parents in childhood and how the parents are attached to them. And that in turn has a great deal of impact on how they attach to the romantic partners down the line. And then we can to you there, there are little subcategories, but the three main categories of attachment are if you're anxiously attached, which another term is preoccupied, which means you're the one who's always worried about what does that mean? They sent me that text message. Are they mad at me? Are they going to leave me? I noticed that she has a weird look on her face, is she upset about something? I need to fix this now. I want to talk about her issues. I don't like to go to bed with things hanging over my head. I'm very preoccupied with the health of this relationship. I'm always thinking about it. And wouldn't you know it? They tend to match up with the polar opposite, which is the avoidant. And the avoidant is like, I really don't want to talk about it. Can you just leave me alone? I really value my independence. Yes, I want to get with somebody and have kids and start a family, but leave me the heck alone. And the the more you push and the more you try to get me to talk, and the more, the more it turns me off, and the more I run away. And there are degrees of both. Some are some people are super anxious, very, very insecure, where they scare off everybody. And then there are some people that are super avoidant to the point of like, I think they're a narcissist. I think they're extremely broken. Well, would you know it? The guys that I talk to are pretty anxious, and they tend to match up with really what they call dismissively avoidant women. But what's interesting is that's not the norm in psychology. Usually the genders are flipped. Yeah, I was gonna say that is. Yeah, they're awesome. Usually you think of a man who's just like rolling his eyes when the wife's like, Can we talk about something? He's like, Oh, here we go. And he's like, Can we just leave me alone? Let me drink my beer and watch my football, and please just try that's a very male thing we see. Um, but there are pl I've learned over the years, there are plenty of women just like that. And I was married to one. I was the anxious guy married to the very avoidant woman. And when I look at my, not to pick on her, but to look at my ex and her family, you're like, Well, duh, of course she became a very avoidant. I never saw her mother and father hug.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

I mean, how weird is that?

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Let alone kill so heckno, you know, embrace, enjoy each other's company. No, he just worked his butt off. Mom stayed at home, and they just lived their own little separate lives. And that's what my ex-wife grew up to watch and see. She had a front row seat. That's how people are. And when you looked at her her family, which were very large, extended Catholic family, and well, you went, you went to the family gatherings, and it was just, oh wow, they had to rent out a building to put everybody in it. But again, were they the most loving, sweet, hugging all over each other? With the you couldn't tell who was husband and wife, you don't, or if they were brother and sister, they all acted the same. And that tends to make some pretty avoidant people. And for whatever reason, they tend to attract very anxiously attached people. That's what we see again and again. And uh what you want to be ideally is somewhere in the middle. I don't know if that's scientifically accurate, but that's that's how I say it. It's called a secure individual. We all want to be a secure individual where it's okay to give people their space and it's okay to come together. And touch is a good thing, and sometimes people just don't want to be touched, and that's cool too. And that's where we all want to be. But that's easier said than done when you're a guy who's very preoccupied, you're very insecure by yourself, and you have a lot of shame. Shame is huge in the world of men, shame just dictates all of us, it seems. So that is the the bulk from what I've seen, the bulk of the men's self-help audience are anxiously attached, men.

SPEAKER_03 10:55

Yeah, because they're worried about it and trying to fix the problem. And sort of the male wants to fix the problem anyway. I think, too, as you look at the female journey versus the male journey, or in comparison to over the last 40 years with the rise of feminism, which has done so many awesome things. I had I grew up with four sisters and a brother, so I learned early on about equal rights. All my sisters were smarter than me, could beat me up. Not really, but you know, what can you say? But but so honoring that tradition in my family, you know, my parents were hard-driving, very performance-oriented people, but the women in our family could do anything. You know, my sisters, there's nothing about the boys go to college, the women are gonna, it's everybody was expecting to go to college and and might have very successful sisters because of that. But um, when women are kind of embracing the male journey, I think that is more of a what I might think of an engineer, you know, who is avoidant of emotions and wants to fix things. And so uh the I think that's pretty introduced a good bit of confusion into women. Not um anyway saying they should be subservient or passive or anything like that, but it's a confusing uh journey the last 50 years in American life, some positives and some and there are always gonna be some trade-offs, you know, negatives.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

There's a couple of things here you come to mind that are important to point out. One is that for a lot of the avoidant women that we run into in our world, if you look at their childhood, they had to raise themselves. So, and a lot of them were hyper-achieving. So a straight A student did really well in the corporal world, worked their way up, and they don't need nobody. And when somebody comes in and tries to flex his man muscle and said, I want to play leader, they just smirk and go, That's that's not up in my world, buddy. I'm the director of this movie, that's just the way it is, it's the way it's always been. I can't count on anybody. I've never, even as a young child, was able to emotionally depend on other people, and that's sad, and that carries over into the relationships and just all hell breaks loose. It's not good. Another thing that you you bring to mind is that another uh a large portion of our audience in the male self-help world related to relationships are what we call neurodivergent. So you have the old ADHD, really common in our world, and then the autism spectrum. And when you're on the autism spectrum, for example, you tend to really gravitate towards those engineering roles and those other things, and those guys can come across as people who don't know any better as very uh robotic and lacking emotion and sometimes unempathetic and so forth. It's a spectrum, so it depends on where they fall into that spectrum. Uh um, and uh yeah, that's it's our world, and those men tend to pair up with those borderlines that you mentioned early on and so forth. They tend to attract those really chaotic gals, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_03 13:39

Yeah, and I and again, the you know, the I do think they're there are only two sexes and they're very different in many ways and very similar, obviously, in many ways. But when we're told in our world that it's a very feeling-oriented, I heard somebody say that we used we had the age of faith up until the enlightenment, and we had the age of reason, and now we're living in the age of feeling, and that's an uncomfortable place for men who you know typically are tend more toward being less emotive than women. It's uh it's a weird place for everybody in here.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

So if you're stuck in a place of feeling, unfortunately, feeling is a fleeting thing. Tomorrow it's way different than what I feel today.

SPEAKER_03 14:21

Well, we're all told that you're supposed to be your authentic self, and then my question is always well, which one? I mean, one of my auth one of my authentic selves wants to eat the cheesecake for five and cost five cost me five hundred calories, and my other authentic self wants to you know beef trim. So take it quick, it's a conflict within how we struggle with. So you um so you work with men a lot on identity. How do you just go about that? Are you do you have a particular model that you use or as you coach? Or I don't give away the whole farm here, but but what is your and I I would totally agree, identity is uh is I mean, we used to we used to know our identity was given to us. Um and that wasn't a sometimes it's a bad thing, sometimes it wasn't, but now we live in an age and which is more uh instead of memasis where we're imitating is poiasis where we'd make, we're told make your own identity, again, which is a really hard task to say you've got to make your own, you know, you don't you don't conform to society. Now you have to push against uh your idea, you know, what society tells you, and somehow then express yourself and online and all this stuff. And and most people just honestly don't care. Like I tell our guys all the time in the jail, you're gonna die and nobody's gonna remember you, you know, you two or three or five years after you're dead. Uh that's a little bit of a wake-up call. Uh so in this mixed-up world of of identity formation, what is your kind of take on that with men? Because you say this is a lot of the problem. What is the solution then?

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Yeah, it's uh I really get into this in a big way in my latest book called Rebuild. And you can learn more at readrebuild.com. That'll jump you right to our page on help from insight. But really, a lot of it for a lot of men that I've spoken to, just a little bit of introspection, a little bit of looking back, and they realize at a very young age, they kind of had some very natural tendencies about themselves. And some of us are blessed enough to have parents and so forth who see certain tendencies in you and they want to help cultivate that. So I notice, son, you're a really great artist and you really love that. I want to send you to art school, and here's art supplies, and and that becomes later a career and design or whatever it may be. But for a lot of guys, it's I really like this. And then something happens and responsibility gets in the way. And you gotta have a wife, you gotta have a kid, and you completely forget about whatever the thing it is that used to really light a fire under your butt, which is a pretty good indicator of that's a thing that kind of speaks to you. So if you're a guy, like, for example, who loves writing like myself, I mean, next thing you know, six hours goes by and you're like, oh, I haven't eaten yet today. And um, I've just been enjoying myself so much. Oh, I gotta go pick up my kid from school. I'm gonna be late. You just forget because you're just caught in the zone, so to speak, in a flow state. So that's also a good indicator that you're really tapping into something that's very natural to you. But again, responsibility, stress. You you tapped into the societal expectations of men. Anytime you veer towards, I like to do this, society will smack you on the hand saying, bad boy, take care of things that are more important than that. You know, you don't need to be doing that. And you hear that enough, and eventually things just get suppressed, emotion gets suppressed. I did a presentation on this at our last conference that a lot of men are wondering, like, how come I don't get as much joy and oomph out of things as I used to? And a lot of that is explained away as saying, well, you're an adult now. It's just how it is. Like, no, what's happening is that you cannot selectively turn down emotion. I can't say I want to suppress sadness and fear and anger, but keep the joy and happy, it doesn't really work that way. It's one master volume knob, everything goes down with it. So over the years of suppress, suppress, suppress, and then next thing you know, your kid does something wonderful and you're just smiling, going, attaboy, as opposed to Yahoo, like you used to do, and really feel it and everything. Just over the years, we just get that all suppressed in us. And over time, our roles as men is measured by, or our value as men rather, is measured by our competence. How are we at fixing things? How are we at making a living? How are we at solving the world's problems? And it seems the more competence we stack is great, but it smothers what? Our personality and our identity. We just become a uh an animal that uh what is the word I'm looking for? Like a workhorse. And we're praised for our workhorse capabilities, and then we become very uninteresting human beings who don't who lose sight of who we are. So a lot of guys that I talk to, it's it's kind of rewind the hands of time. What do you used to like to do? And it's so funny talking to some and how some of the things they mention, I'm just like, you really? You know, some guys like I don't know it's kind of embarrassing, but I used to be into dance. Like, that's all dance. I used to be in it, yeah. It was ballroom dancing when I was a little kid. I was really good at it, and then I loved it, and then I got away from it because I've switched schools and I did this and then I always wanted to get back into it. Why not? Why not tap into something never thought about it? I guess I could, you know. And then that leads to the thing, which leads to the thing, which leads to a whole new group of people that they're hanging out with. And voila, I'm kind of rediscovering some things about myself that I used to love to do. Like I talk about a point over here, the guitar. Um, when I was a kid, I used to love fiddling on guitars, and then you move and you graduate college, and you do, and it just slowly but surely, and then divorce hits, and you're the kids are at the one of the rare weekends with mom or whatever, and you're just like, I can do that again. Who am I? What am I? What do I do now? Because I don't have to do this and this and this. The kid, you know what I used to do, and then you get back into some of the what you used to do, and it lights a fire under you, like writing and so forth for me. And um, and it a lot of guys think it's I haven't found the thing yet. Keep going, man. Maybe your journey is just you're having fun learning and trying a whole bunch of different things. Who cares? It's not a contest, but uh you know, it's not a contest of trying out different hobbies and so forth. But it's a heck of a lot better than just sitting and twiddling your thumbs and going, woe was me, and uh that doesn't get you anywhere.

SPEAKER_03 20:23

Yeah, you're you're totally right, you know. And I think that we think if to do to follow a passion means we have to be uh Jimi Hendrix if I want to do the guitar. Nope. I did the same thing. I said, I'm just playing guitar a little bit, and I took it up and took it up 10 years ago, and I love playing, it's great. I'm I'm the only one who thinks I'm any good, but what an outlet, but it doesn't have to be an eight-hour day commitment, it's just a little bit of something. So, guys, if you listen to this, you know, divorce gives you a real chance to kind of reset and evaluate some of your loves, what do you want to do? And it's a great chance to reform your identity in a positive sense. A lot of guys reform the identity, you know, self-destructive behaviors that just uh are poor choices of drinking, drugs, you know, like you're talking about earlier, just uh kind of gratuitous sex, and those always lead to emptiness. They are not gonna fill your life. Uh yeah, creativity does fill our lives, you know.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

There is thanks to uh technology and so forth, it is very easy for us to slip into hedonistic kind of lifestyle, if you will, which has very little uh meaning behind it. And uh, I often say to guys, when you're in the middle of doing something, pause and go, like, is what I'm doing just a stimulating thing, keeping me busy, scroll, scroll, scroll, whatever it may be. Or is it something that has some meaning behind it? It's meaningful, and I get great joy out of it. And well, you'll find if you pause at those moments, you're like, more often than not, especially in today's day and age, you're like, Well, what am I doing? Why am I I just waste doing this thing for what reason? And it's very easy to get into. I mean, if you're one of those poor lucky guys who doesn't look too bad, got a good personality. I mean, the world is your oyster as far as dating is concerned. And uh a lot of men don't believe that, but just talk to some guy who's, you know, 40 something, 50 something, 60 something in a divorce, he'll tell you, oh, it's easier than ever, because he has that something, that combination of something that a lot of women like. But that can lead you down to a road of a lot of chaos and a lot of empty relationships. And I had three women last week, and it sounds great to a guy who hasn't you've been without for a while, but every guy in that world would say it gets old after a while, and then you realize this isn't what I want. These people are all nuts.

SPEAKER_03 22:30

This is just fulfilling your life, and you know, no, like we say creativity gives us that that fulfillment and and everything makes us maybe really gives us a chance to step forward. And it doesn't have to mean you give up your job to follow that dream. Uh just enjoy a little bit. Yeah, we we get these weird ideas. I'm kind of halfway through a book by Ross Dut at uh New York Times called The Decadence Society, and he has a great section in there about just the numbing. Basically, he just says we're just numbed. I mean, society in general is numb through technology. Yeah, it used to be like the crack cocaine epidemic was all about being up, and now it's the opioid epidemic, it's all about just being down until finally your breathing stops. So uh, you know, through those two things, we become numb. I know when I when I was going through this, my horrible time, then I thought if I lost one or both of these things in my life, it'd be trouble. And one was just a sense of wonder. I'm always amazed at the world. I mean, it's just the people are amazing, technology is amazing, the creation is amazing, nature, everything. And if you lose that sort of sense of wonder, then you're in a bad place. And the second thing was just that sense of initiative that I am gonna push into this and and solve these problems. So you went through this horrible time um kind of thinking about what men do, what should men not do in those first 30 to 60 days of a divorce? I think you already said one. Don't go get a woman. I would totally totally agree with that, man. Just get yourself in a place where you'll be the kind of man that attracts the kind of woman that you that will be fulfilling in life-giving, but other things besides uh besides going out and doing that.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

A lot of men experience almost like a manic stage after the fact, you know, dramatic highs and lows. And if they're if they're in one of their, it's almost bipolar-esque kind of thing. And if they're in kind of one of their manic phases of everything's wonderful, I'm finally on my own, things are clicking. Uh, you can make some very erratic big decisions that can really hurt you down the line. And it's really common in my world, especially amongst the ADHD types and so forth. Um, you talked about like you don't necessarily have to become the next Jimi Hendrix. Tell that to the ADHD or autism guy who gets very hyper, hyper focused on a thing, and he will concentrate on a thing until I mean he'll just a thousand percent on the thing. He'll get very, very focused on that. Obsessed is the word I'm looking for. And um for a lot of these guys, it becomes an entrepreneur entrepreneurial thing, for example. Let's say he has a nice little six-figure job, he's doing well, he's got the benefits, he's taking care of the kids, but he's got his mind. This doesn't fulfill me. This isn't uh, this isn't my calling. I need to, and he's telling me his business idea, and I'm like, that's that's gonna be disastrous here, man. I it sounds like a great hobby if you want to lose a few bucks, but it doesn't sound like something's gonna make you any money or anything. And and unfortunately, a lot of guys don't listen and they jump just full steam into I'm gonna open up my own body shop, I'm gonna open up whatever it may be. And usually it's something that involves he's gotta be working on it himself, hands-on. It's not like a hands-off investment type of thing. It's like this is gonna be my new for whatever reason. Um, some common things I hear are guys saying, I want to start my own pressure washing business. Really? Okay. Yes, for whatever. It's a very um uh low barrier to entry kind of thing, you know. I need money and equipment, uh, or I'm gonna be the kind of guy who a lot of blue blue collar type stuff. And really, yeah, I hear that a lot from guys, and but or you know, in some of those guys' defense, they will string several things together. So I do this, this, and this, and some of them they make it work. But for a lot of guys, a lot of those ideas are very I just sit back wide-eyed and going, Oh, that sounds interesting. And I don't I wouldn't quit your day job just yet. That's true. And anybody who's done the entrepreneurial thing will tell you the same thing. Keep the day job, keep the regular paycheck coming in. If you want to do the thing bad enough, you'll find a way to do it. You'll you'll you'll work until 2 a.m. You'll do all those other things to make it work. You'll save all your pennies, you'll save all you'll you'll sell all your stuff. Yeah, a lot of people are like, nope, jump it in full speed. I I saw somebody on internet tell me that's the only way to do it, I'm gonna do it. So they're in that kind of manicky phase post-divorce and they make a lot of nutty decisions. Women, money. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 26:51

I think you know both of those tap into the same uh root problem. And the sex thing is the emasculation a man feels in divorce. If you if you're the one that gets rejected, which is most of our guys, then you just feel like wow, I mean, you know, I failed as a man, and I think that lends itself to pornography because you're going, This is the cheapest, easiest, fastest way I can have fun and hurt woman. You know, just get back at that woman. Um, and so the dating thing is, am I really a man again? And then again, the money thing is that blue collar is sort of like, okay, I want to get my hands dirty, be a man. Maybe that's the same sort of room. Could very well be. I've never, you know, that's really great insight, Ralph, because I haven't really heard that of uh uh I I sense it in some of the guys we work with, but it is something to to worry about that men have this chance, this sense of freedom, especially if they're an unhappy marriage now to release from it. I know for me, I was like, I could go buy a crotch rocket right now. I mean, meaning a cool motorcycle. But it's also that sort of a risk, risky behavior, right, that men engage in to say, hey, I might as well just uh I I don't want to live, so I can just go do these crazy this crazy stuff. A lot of midlife crisis sort of things that get men in a lot of trouble, you know.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

Now, another thing I want to make a point of is and a lot of guys hearing this will say that ain't me, but I'll tell you what, I see it pretty often. You get so caught up in the women, you get so caught up in the money, you get you know what you forget?

SPEAKER_03 28:10

Your kids. Yeah, we emphasize kids, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Their world just got rocked. Yeah, and they are just like the ground under their feet is very unsteady, and they they're looking for somebody to turn to. And often in the guys that I speak to, their ex is kind of going off the rails, she's going through her thing, crisis, whatever you call it, and she's not the most emotionally dependable person. She's acting like a rebellious teenager, and kids are like, Dad, can we depend on you, please, to be our saving grace here? And if he's off growing his ponytail and buying the little red sports car and getting the tattoos and chasing women, a lot of these kids are like, I don't have anybody I can trust. And not good. And sometimes you got to smack some sense into these guys going, you need to cut it out with all that nonsense and maybe get the kids into therapy and talking to somebody and hanging out with them more because this you've got you got a pubertal kid who's going through some stuff right now or whatever, maybe, and they they need your attention.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

Can you uh show me your ponytail real quick on this uh YouTube Zoom here? You can't see for those listening, I'm very bald. Here, which is the easiest haircut of all. I didn't have a little more hair on my chin, I think, if I can see correctly there. I'm not sure if you're gonna if I grew my nose. Yeah, we always emphasize in men's force recovery that you've got to, you know, no kid benefits from divorce. I mean, maybe in a super abusive situation, but no kid goes, wow, my parents just got divorced. I mean, in divorce, one person at least goes, Yeah, this is exactly what I want, but not for kids. And and they really need our are focused. And it's really neat though, the guys that we that come to us are probably the same guys that come to you, they are focused about your with your kids. Like you were left being a dad with three little kids, and uh, we find that very often. And you know, the other thing with kids, and not we're not to go down too far this because time is coming too close, but but the terror that a lot of our guys feel when their ex then starts to date another man. And what is this man gonna be in my kids' life, and what could they potentially do abusively to my child, so especially girls? So that one is just true terror.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

We could go down that road. I mean, the stats don't help with that anxiety around that. That the the person most likely to abuse is that non-biological dad figure in the home, the stepdad, the boyfriend, or whatever. It's just we it's just the stats prove that out. So it behooves a man, it behooves a man to get involved in that world. I want to go meet Steven, the new whatever, and be friendly, open, and I just want to get to know you. You're the guy hanging out with my kids. Let's let's get to know each other, you know? Adversarial. But I tell you, some men, especially if it's very early on, which more often than not, it's it's pretty early on, where it's like divorce, and then the next month, mommy has a new friend at the house. You're like, geez, that was that didn't take long. Um, and those guys are still hurting, they're still reeling from the divorce, especially if there's cheating and everything else. He's emasculated. Here comes a new man. Some men get scary violent during that. And I tell guys, you gotta watch yourself, be careful, don't do anything stupid. Stay the heck away from him if that's what you're feeling. Go talk to somebody. Uh, even if it's uh a common scenario that I've I've heard more than a few times is some type of physical altercation happens in the home. Yeah, ex-wife comes charging at you, you go to defend yourself. Next thing you know, you're knocking her down. She hits her head on the kitchen table, there's blood all over the place. Guess what you are? You're the guy who abused his ex-wife. You're you're a domestic abuser. And you could have just avoided that all by just staying the heck out of Dodge. That kind of thing happens quite a bit. He said she said, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 31:38

I'm in the middle of a bunch of people who guys have done that. And and one of the things we say, Ralph, is uh is uh don't make it worse. Whatever you're thinking in your head, they can't put you in jail for what you're thinking. But if you act on, you can and will be arrested and put in jail. And this is a really ruckier life in many, many ways. So yeah, those are some great uh great words for sure. Rob, you I mean, this could go on for literally a long time. I know your your time is short. You're uh a famous guy. We're gonna have a famous guy on here. And uh, but let tell us where uh you know you we can find your work, uh, you know, the help for men, the all the books that you have. Um I know you have a couple websites really, or is it just for help for men? Is that the main website? Okay, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

The main website is helpformen.com. Helpformen.com, and that's FOR, not the number four. I've had some people try to go there. So helpformen.com. You can find everything there. My books, you can learn about the Brotherhood, our private support community for men, uh, articles, videos, all kinds of good stuff on there. And then I I have social media profiles under the name of Dad Starting Over. A lot of people know me from that. So you can find me got a big, you know, 250 something thousand people on Facebook, follow me, and 140 something thousand on YouTube. So a lot of people know me from that. So check it out, Dad Starting Over on social media and helpformen.com.

SPEAKER_03 33:00

I appreciate that, Ralph. It's really a privilege to have you on. Thanks for taking time on it. Tuesday afternoon. And uh guys, you know what we always say don't make it worse. And second thing we say is determine now that you're gonna finish well. When all is said and done, when people are saying things over your your body, then it'll be good things are saying, not that you spent the rest of your bitter life alone in a one-bedroom apartment watching TV and doing other things. So you shouldn't be doing finish well, finish well, do good for your kids. Thank you, my friend, for sure, and guys, we'll talk to you all soon.