Why Men Lose in Divorce—and How to Change the Outcome Part Two

In this episode of Men’s Divorce Recovery, Dale and Chris sit down with Diana Romanov—founder of Romanov Law and a certified Family Law Specialist—to break down the hidden architecture behind why relationships fail and what men can do to navigate divorce with clarity and control. Drawing from her experience guiding thousands of clients through high-stakes divorces, Diana shares the patterns that quietly lead to disconnection, the costly mistakes men make early in the process, and how to approach divorce strategically rather than emotionally. The conversation dives into power dynamics, protecting your role as a father, and what separates a destructive divorce from one that sets you up for a stronger future. Diana also unpacks how technology and AI are reshaping the divorce landscape—and how men can use these tools to stay informed, empowered, and ahead of the process. 

Inspiration Verse: Proverbs 4:23 “Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.” 

Resources: https://www.romanovlaw.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi men, welcome back to Men's Divorce Recovery. Today we are going to listen to the second half of our interview with Diana Romanoff. She is providing some fantastic advice here. I'd really recommend that you listen to her, especially if you're in the process of litigation around your divorce. Listen to her, take her advice. It'll save you a lot of heartache, a lot of time, a lot of money. Let's go ahead and get started.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

I love why, you know, Chris, we've had attorneys on here. You guys bring such a different perspective. Um, you know, being a prosecutor and a mediator, these are roles you've played here in overseas in in Europe, which is amazing. How does that background shape the way you approach high conflict divorces? And what I kind of anticipate your answer might be just be practical and firm, maybe, but you fill in the blanks or tell me where I'm wrong. It's nice, I love listening to you guys talk about this. It's fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Firm is not always the winning position. So I would say I would look and and into underlying storm, what happened? So, for example, if one spouse was unfaithful, most likely that spouse is going to overcompensate and regret. If if the spouse is super angry, he's going to over-litigate and overspend on attorney's fees, and attorney's kids are going to college, not his own. So determining point A, what is the underlying emotion driving this is crucial. And then I'm chameleon. So I adapt. If I see the client is driven by anger, then validating the anger to take down the steam could be the right approach. Uh not forcing anything at the beginning, sort of accepting the client as they come and accepting the emotion they're in. And then shift. The shift needs to happen, and the the sooner it happens, the better is for the client. Because the moment they can clear the air, I call it, clear the air, meaning they vent, vent, vent, hours, days, months, and then eventually they come to a point, okay. I'm done venting, I'm done complaining, and some clients don't. Those are the most difficult clients to handle. They're draining energy. But let's say they they went through the phase of venting, and once they're clear, then it's easier to navigate what approach to take: mediation, uh, prosecution, because the other spouse might be uh very wrong and doesn't want to mediate. It's not always someone we cannot force mediation on someone. Yes, California has mediation uh family court services as mandatory in custody cases. In in in the Bay Area, every case that goes to trial has to be first mediated in court with volunteering attorneys. That's all private mediation cannot be forced. So accepting the client, number one, where they stand, and then a great attorney, a very good attorney, will know how to help client shift. And if they don't shift, letting go of the client, it's like in a relationship, right? Letting go of the wrong relationship might might save the client. It's not always good. Some lawyers when they make that mistake, what happens is they drive the emotion of a client together. And what happens? They together have 11-day trial on a bullshit issue. They have together uh 25 accusations of 25 years of marriage that happened 20 years ago. So that type of attorney needs to also get to acceptance and move on. And the clients think, oh, because I hired you and I pay you big bucks, you need to do what I ask. Well, that's where I draw the boundary. You pay me big bucks to resolve the case in your best interest, not what you think is in your best interest right now because you're emotional and angry.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

I think that that is Yeah, that's great advice. You know what's interesting? And I was thinking about this this weekend. So this past weekend, I had, and so I've been divorced now. It's it's it's it's pushing on six years. Isn't that crazy, Dale? It's been that long. But but um, this was our first joint kind of event um this past Sunday. My my daughter had a religious event, and so her her family was there, my ex-in-laws, my family was there, my new wife was there. So it was the first time we were all on the table together, and I gotta tell you, it was awkward as heck. Um, but one thing that I find fascinating, and I see this with my current wife too, because she's she's also has an ex who went through a whole legal process. The amount of time and effort and money we spent doing all these agreements versus now, where we're kind of like, hey, do you want to take them this weekend? Do you want to like, hey, why don't we adjust this time? Now that we're not in that battle, it drives me bonkers how much money we spent on lawyers when clearly we can just work out at least the parenting part, the money part we needed lawyers. But I feel like now that we're six years in the rears, we don't follow that plan nearly as much, considering how much money we invested in it. Do you see that a lot, Diana? Just you know, you you work on these plans and they kind of five years later they're they're kind of loosely following them. I'm just curious about that.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

Yes, absolutely. And the children the the the good news after divorce is final, the children that have been alienated, once divorce is done and there is no pending animosity litigation, um, the children also turn around. It's not just the ex. But at some point, I I think people run out of steam. You cannot be angry for 10 years. It takes too much energy.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Right. I say all of this, guys, to say be careful about how much money you spend going through this divorce process. Have you know, I think Diana's advice is good about um listening to your attorney and figuring out you may your attorney is gonna have the clearest head. So listen to them about getting to the path that you need to get to. And don't feel the need to fight every single little battle. You will regret it when you look at your bank account six years later. I I I can tell you this from my personal experience and from looking at my wife now, where they were in an even more contentious separation than that I was. Their legal process was even worse than mine, if you can believe it. But now they kind of just work together as co-parents, and it's just and at the time, you don't think it's realistic. If you're going through a really high conflict divorce, you don't see a scenario where at any point in time you're gonna be able to co-parent. And I can tell you that's just not accurate uh in a lot of cases. So men a lot of times worry about fairness and asset division in custody. Um, what should they realistically expect and how can they prepare? Is it realistic? Should men just at the beginning be like, all right, I'm gonna be an every other weekend box, mac and cheese guy. I don't think that's right, but what is realistic for a man going into that?

SPEAKER_03 7:31

It depends on the age of the child. So if we're talking of a month one month child versus 15-year-old, that's a big gap, right? So uh a one-month baby, it's going to be treated more towards breastfeeding mother, a couple hours, maybe a couple days with dad, versus a 10-year-old who doesn't get to decide, who doesn't have a say, the court will usually order 50-50 in California. And then we have uh the the gray teenage phase where um she or he has been brainwashed by one parent, and even if there is a 50-50 order, the child doesn't want to go, no police is going to enforce it. Nobody's gonna force a teenager to go to another parent. So it depends on the age of the child and the relationship that has been built. So I would suggest to build the relationship now, literally now. The dad's clubs, going on camping, uh, visiting games, being involved in school, because what happens, what I hear a lot of the times, a pattern. Mom is taking care of the kids, dad is working, which is fair, which is an agreement they had. And then mom says in court, well, he never was there, why would he be there now? And the kids don't want him to be there anyway. So that's a valid point. It's not just purely in Asian, but let's imagine dad would say, Yes, I'm working. However, as we're in a good relationship, I would spend bonding time with the children by myself. We would go camping, would go play games, we would go and it's a relationship. The children are humans, so I would create such a strong bonding time that mom has zero chance, zero chance to alienate.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

That's really good. That's good advice to kind of answer that next question. The pillars, what you do, strengthen your fatherhood, right? Just be the dad. You know?

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Well, yeah, and and I mean, what you just described happened to me. So about 10 years before we had our first child, or well, right after we had our first child, you know, my my wife at the time was working and had a high-level job. And then we had our first child, and there was no plans of her staying at home as a stay-at-home mom, but she decided she wanted to. So as a couple, we had that discussion and we made the sacrifice of I was gonna work, you know, double hard so she could stay home. Little did I know, you know, that nine years later in court, that was going to be used against me. That I was traveling international for work and all this stuff, and it was used like I was this, it was almost painted that I was this absentee father, which couldn't be farther from the truth, but it worked. It it worked in court, and I got very little time compared to what I think I deserve. So I think that's strong advice. Be careful, guys, be careful.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

You know, if I can circle back, um Diana, you mentioned the first you go, you see three lawyers. You're saying that if you that's advice you would give to a man who maybe is thinking divorce is coming, or he's been told, you know, by his wife I want to get a divorce. You recommend like interviewing three attorneys and then and then choosing one.

SPEAKER_03 10:56

At least how would you determine what would criteria would you use to determine if the attorney says, Oh, don't worry about it, don't I'll take care of it, and doesn't give you any answers, or oh, she wants to have 90% time with the kids, yeah, give it to her. You know, more time for you. You know, you you will see how the lawyer responds to your concerns. Are they taking it seriously? Are they giving you ideas and advice? Are they responding to your emails on time? Are they uh are they listening to your questions or are they distracted because that's what you get? You you see what you get. You will you you you you gotta know who you hire because it will determine the course. There are some lawyers who are so nasty that they destroy by representing some of the clients, they destroy the family relationships for good. There's no way back. They they allow to draft declarations, they allow to say things about the children that children will later grow up and read. I tell my clients, who are you going to be now? Is that person going to be in 20 years regretting who you are now? How you speak about your wife, how you speak about your children. When you die, are you going to regret it? Because that's what matters. Are you living in integrity?

unknown 12:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

That's great. That's why we coach them. I mean, we we say that, you know, the purpose of going to litigation or whatever you do, the purpose of the whole separation is to be fair, you know, not to go after more than you should, not to go, not just to roll over and take it. You can tell an attorney would have those same values pretty much just from listening. And you know, we don't want our our men just to give it up out of guilt, and we also don't want uh them to try to gouge their ex unfairly. I mean, you can tell that from a the way attorney approaches you and answers your questions, I would assume, is what you're saying. Sounds like yeah.

unknown 13:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 13:03

Are they responding to your follow-up questions? I uh good. So the the one thing I the the main complaint from other clients I hear is my lawyer's not responsive. Seriously, this is an emotional emergency. I it's when a client emails, I assume there is an emotional emergency. So I respond within 24 hours every single day, business day. So when a lawyer doesn't respond for a week, goodbye.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Yeah. My emotional emergencies usually came when I got in got an email from my attorney. That's when I go, oh no, what's this gonna be? Uh, but she was great. We had a great attorney for sure. So you I don't have any idea how many divorces you've been involved in, Diana. It's it's gotta be amazing. I don't know how y'all do it. This is a pretty tough place to place to be, but um, you've seen successful divorces, disastrous divorces. What are um what separates a good divorce from a bad one?

SPEAKER_03 14:02

Same one, same answer that I gave about relationships and how to keep a good relationship. The good divorce is defined by the quality of the agreements they reach together. And and while reaching their agreements, how are they being? Are they being nasty or are they being reasonable despite emotional things that are going on? Can they look beyond their anger, resentment, sadness, whatever emotion? And the best and rewarding, the most rewarding agreements I had were I meet with the other side. Let's say they're not represented, I speak to them, and and they tell me really what they want. I want to spend time with our children, I want to be there for them instead of my ex is ex in list all the laundry list of of sins. So with that type of attitude, it gives me a lot to talk to my client about, to create a schedule, even when she's in overseas, it's it's much more productive to get to the bottom of things instead of focusing on the emotion, focusing on the ask. Ask without being tinted by emotion, tainted, meaning what is really going on? It's it's it's very deep psychological work. Do I really want to spend time with the children, or do you want to spend time with the children so I can harass her about other things? Do I really care about that dog? Do I really care about that 50 grand that she's asking in attorney's fees? So really get into what's really going on. And the smartest decisions I have seen is when clients who are on the wealthier side, they say, I would like to reach an agreement instead of being six months in litigation, I can make more money when I'm not in litigation.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Yeah, that's smart. That's good. Those are good answers for sure.

SPEAKER_03 16:19

They lost the continuity cost.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

100%. Avoid it, avoid it, avoid it. So try to try to make it as short of a process as possible. One of the things that I did want to ask is uh is looking ahead, how do you see a divorce evolving in the next five years with the rise of AI and digital platforms? And the reason why I want to ask this question is because um chat GBT is now everybody's psychologist, lawyer, best friend, you know, everything to them. It it plans my menus on the weekends when I have all five of the kids over, when I have my kids and I have my stepkids as well. I tell ChatGBT, I want these kind of meals, I want it to cost this much money, and it is done in about 10 seconds of telling me what exactly I should buy. That's great. Having it as my lawyer or my psychologist, probably not as great. So, how have you seen the use of AI shift and where do you kind of see that going? And do you advise your clients just stay off of that? What do you how do you advise your clients to use that?

SPEAKER_03 17:16

I know we are short on time, so I will give a shorter answer. I think AI is is is is a is a tool. And if we don't use it, uh we're gonna be behind. I advise my clients to use AI as much as they can with caution. A, everything they put into AI is not confidential because it's not covered by training client privilege, number one. Open source AI can leak their source and money and whatever they put in. But most importantly, don't trust but verify. So whatever AI says, if it's a crucial decision to make, verify was me first. AI is going to it's it's unstoppable. And I'm not talking about Chat GPT, I'm talking about Claude, the plugins, the it's it's going to be in two years, we will have a completely different conversation. It's it's unstoppable. So advising clients not to look at AI, it's like advising clients to drive horses when cars are coming out. Correct. Just get in first, get in smart, know how to use it, because I think nowadays and age, whoever learns how to use it is going to be ahead.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

Completely agree with you. I think that's I think that's great advice. You know, use it, but you know, don't forget you have an actual lawyer, you know, to run things by. Um don't don't don't start thinking I can go represent myself because I got you know the University of AI next to me.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

For our guys listening right now that are either considering divorce or in the middle of a divorce, um, what's the one piece of advice you'd want to them to walk away with? Because I know when we've been there, Chris and I've been there, when you're in the middle of it, your emotions are strong, you you sometimes you just you're you're forgetting things. Um, and just to take away one piece of advice would be something some of our guys listening, maybe all they can hold on to at the moment, which is sad, but the way it is. So what would be the one thing you'd ask our guys to remember?

SPEAKER_03 19:26

If divorce is still sort of vague in the future type of question, I would say get into therapy or get into some type of counseling, religious what whatever you believe in, to see where are your own shortcomings. It's easy to point the finger at one person, but remember four p fingers are pointing at you while doing so. So there is always two sides to the story, and uh it can be saved if if if both parties paddle on that short boat. But both parties have to put as much effort as they can to get to a safe place. You know, if there is a storm, if they paddle together, they can overcome that. And whatever tool it takes to get there would be my advice. If divorce is already unavoidable, if it's already happening, then remember that twenty years from now, when you're looking back, you'll regret if you are not being the way you would like to be now. I had a case where my client has been accused of domestic violence, gun possession, being in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was not guilty of any of these charges. And the way he handled himself through cancer, four-stage cancer during this process. How he carried himself, it was uh unbelievable. Unbelievable. He had uh background of mediation, so that helped. Without that attitude, I think we would not resolve all these five different stupid cases we had against him, and the children want to be with him. The way he carried himself was with grace, gratitude, humbleness, accepting the fact that he was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. He didn't do what they said he did, but unfortunately things happen the way they unfold, and now we're on the other side, versus this other client who has this little issue compared to his issues, right? And flips and throws chant rooms and incurs fees and curses and sends nasty emails, doesn't get that far at all.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Um good advice, excellent. Yeah, really, really good advice. All of this advice has been just so spot on. Wow, I wish I wish you were around six years ago. I wish I would have found you then. Um, but for the guys who are going through it now, if they want to reach out to you, what's the best way to do that? And I know you're based in California. Can you give advice into different states or are you solely California?

SPEAKER_03 22:18

I'm only practicing law in California.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Okay. And if you're in California and somebody wants to reach to you, um, what's the best way to do it?

SPEAKER_03 22:27

Just Google divorce like a boss with Diana, and you will find me.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

And that's where your books are and all that too?

SPEAKER_03 22:36

Correct. All my my channel is called Divorce Like a Boss on YouTube. My book is called Divorce Like a Boss.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Yeah, it's I can't encourage this in that.

SPEAKER_03 22:44

It's pink. I don't know if you can see it right there.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

So it's oh yes, yes, yes. So I see that I see the book. That is cool. Yeah. Men, this was great advice. I would go look up that YouTube immediately. And as you're going through device, and Dale has said this before, you need a couple folks with you. You need a good lawyer, you need a good um, you need a good therapist, you need a good uh medical doctor, you need MDR. Um, and uh so have all of these folks and choose wisely with your team. So thank you, Diana, again. We really appreciate you being here and the strong and being a strong advocate for men in this space. Because a lot of times we just we just don't have that advocate. So please, men, listen to this advice. It's gonna save you so much heartache and hopefully some money. So let me hand it over to Dale to close this out.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Diana, thank you so much. That was really, really great advice. I I always we've I don't know how many attorneys we've had on Chris, and maybe three or four in these several years, but I always gain so much. I find that world very, very fascinating. Um, so I just uh hope that's been helpful to everybody. And we always give our listeners two pieces of advice. And the first thing is to not make things worse. You can think a lot of things. They can't put you in jail for thinking things, but they can for doing what you're thinking about. So don't do those. And the second one is just as you have said several times, Dana, is to uh determine now to finish well. Don't do things now that you're you're gonna regret 10 years from now, 20 years from now. Um, we really hope that everybody can uh re receive this advice and act over your emotions, kind of get that team to reconvent and not act out in bad ways. But anyway, we'll talk to all of you again in a few weeks. Thanks, Diane, again, for being with us,