Looking Back at Our Biggest Lessons

Looking Back at Our Biggest Lessons is a special mid-season recap of Men's Divorce Recovery, where hosts Dale and Chris reflect on the most impactful conversations, hardest truths, and biggest breakthroughs from the season so far. From navigating grief, rebuilding confidence, and becoming a better father to rediscovering purpose and creating a fulfilling life after divorce, this episode highlights the lessons that have resonated most with listeners. Whether you've been with us since episode one or are just discovering the podcast, this is the perfect opportunity to revisit the insights, encouragement, and practical advice that remind every man that divorce is not the end of his story—it's the beginning of his recovery.

Bible Verse Inspiration:  "Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go." — Joshua 1:9 

Resources: www.MensDivorceRecovery.org 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Welcome back to Men's Divorce Recovery, guys. I'm Dale, and today we're doing something a little different. Over the past several episodes, we've had some incredible conversations about sobriety, redemption, burnout, betrayal, trauma, and all the other fun parts of life. And basically why so many men struggle during and after their divorce. While each episode tackled a different challenge, they all point to the same truth that your worst moments don't have to define the rest of your life. So today, Chris and I are taking a step back to connect the dots. We're talking about the lessons we've learned, the patterns we've seen, and the practical steps every man can take to rebuild after life knocks him down. Whether you're in the middle of a divorce or you're fighting addiction, you're dealing with burnout, or simply trying to become a better man than you were yesterday, which is the measure of uh that we should be using, um then this conversation is for you. So let's get started by bringing in Chris to help facilitate the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Hey Dale, great to see you today. I'm looking forward to revisiting some of these important topics. Before we got started recording, I was saying this is going to be helpful for me just to hear a recap of some of the things that we've talked about so far this year. Um and um I I think I think that all these topics are really interesting and very different, but they're all interconnected. So as always, all get us teed up by um asking some questions, then we'll just kind of ping pong back and forth on some thoughts around these things. And so, Dale, looking back at the topics we discussed this season, which include sobriety, redemption, burnout, betrayal, and the legal aspects of divorce, what's the common thread that ties these themes and divorce together for men? Do you think? All these kind of things that might seem separate, but kind of meshed together in a divorce.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Yeah, I mean, uh to me, the common thread is definitely loss. Every one of these issues involves some kind of loss, loss of marriage, loss of trust, loss of identity, loss of health, loss of purpose, loss of hope and entanglement, legal affairs, what could be potentially be lost. And, you know, for all of us, we it comes down to identity. Where do we get our identity from? And as much as I'd like to say my identity, it comes from God, and a big chunk of it comes from the horse things in the horizontal, uh, you know, things like my marriage and how much I get done and my status and all these things that are really just idols, but our identity gets wrapped up in what we do, who we provide for, and how others see us. So when divorce, addiction, betrayal, burnout hits, it can feel like our entire identity identity collapses. And that's certainly 10 years ago was my experience. I felt like all the things I'd used to prop myself up, my prop my ego up, had just pulled out from under me from hero to zero, and that is a lot of loss, and it is very painful. But what we learned throughout this season is that pain doesn't have to be the end of the story. You know, crisis guys often becomes the doorway to transformation if we choose that doorway. The man, uh, the men who rebuild successfully learn to anchor their identity not in their circumstances and it, but in who God says they are. And that was the loss really hurts, it really, really sucks deep in it. But the hope is that you can, that you are your identity is in God, and that He's going to see you through that. That was definitely my experience through through all this loss. It didn't hurt, it didn't take away the pain, but it certainly made that pain less and made uh made the recovery much more quick uh go quickly.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

I think that's really insightful, Dale. You know what you just said, that answer, how they all kind of point to loss. I hadn't considered that. Um, and and how they all kind of point to a loss of identity. And I think that's that's so critical when you're going through divorce, is that that you everything that you had before, much of it is is is gone or or almost feels like it it almost never really existed. It's almost like a like a dream that you had. It is so true. Yeah. What is your life?

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Where did this life go? Man, that is so true.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Exactly. Yeah, that's um that that was a really interesting take on that. And we often hear men uh we often then we often hear that men are taught to just push through it. So at what point does resilience become self-destructive?

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Man, that really is a good question. You know, I think resilience becomes self-destruction when uh pushing through means ignoring the reality that you're in, you know, just maybe even sticking your head in the sand, or missing the opportunity to become, you know, a better, a better man. Um, there's definitely a big difference between perseverance and denial. Perseverance is actually recognizing what reality is and then saying, um, I'm gonna I'm gonna push through this hard place. Denial just means I'm just gonna put a pill over my head and pretend like nothing's happening here. You know, healthy resilience definitely says that um that this is hard, but I'm gonna face it honestly and get the help I need. I think that becomes a big piece. Uh, are we willing to reach out and and get the help we need? You know, we're always hearing, you guys are always hearing this talk on MDR about build your team. You can't get through this thing alone. Getting a going through it alone is isolating, and that really is destructive because men left to their own devices, really alone, without accountability, without good friends around them, uh, usually they don't come out of the other end of that better guys. They usually come out, you know, more engaged in self-destructive behaviors that do not promote healing. They just really prolong the agony and the suffering. Um, self-destruction really just says, I'm fine, I don't need anybody, I'll handle this myself. I remember one guy told me a long time ago, he said, you know, I knew this, my friend of mine, he was an engineer. I had worked with him for many years. He knew I was going through divorce. He never asked me how I was doing. So it works both ways. We see someone suffering, we need to reach out for them to them and open up that conversation. And I think people are more willing to talk than we give them credit for, but we also have to be willing to reach out and get the help we need. It really is the key to success. You know, many men do wait until their marriage collapses, they lose their job or they become addicted before they admit that they're struggling. Um, in my work now and with law enforcement officers and corrections officers, and that's it's always pay attention to what you're doing now. And if you go through a critical incident, then uh start paying attention to what you're still doing. Are you drinking more? Are you getting more short with your loved ones, treating people worse, isolating more, you know, just skimming at your work, and then all those are little signs that your soul is kind of in a bad place, and you really need to pick pick up that um mantle and get the help you need before it turns into you know DWI or uh or you know domestic assault, something like that. So it all starts small, and the devil likes to pick on us a little here and there and erode our souls, and then we act out in ways that get us in a little out of trouble. You know, it could be ending in divorce or marriage or or you know, jail time or something like that. So paying attention is more guard your heart, the Bible says, you know, you got to guard your heart, really put some guardrails around that, get some guys around you that can help you be accountable to that. Um, there are so many good resources. Um, one of the guests we had on uh was Jeff Kemp years ago, uh we um several years ago, and he's all about um you know having that team huddle, go back and listen to that podcast, and he has a very active ministry right now. You can do a team huddle on uh, you know, be connected online, and and he'd be a definitely go-to source for connection and that kind of uh guardrails and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

So yeah, and um so we're recording this podcast not long after, and I don't mean to get politically here, but not long after Senator Mitch McConnell um suddenly died. And one of the things that they said is that he was feeling you know chest pains that night and said, I'll call a doctor in the morning. And this is so typical of men in general, right? Is that is that we just try to push through the pain. And actually, this this happened to my own dad, where he was experiencing uh some some chest pains and and dizziness. This was about oh gosh, almost two years ago now. And he he pushed it off for months and months and months and then ended up on a surgery table moments from death. And thank God that they were able to save me. But you know, we hear about men being taught to push through, and I I'm not I'm not even sure it's anybody audibly saying it to us. It's more this self-pressure that we put on ourselves. Maybe it's some of the toxic max masculinity taking place. But pushing through physical pain is something that I think men even do um less than we do push through emotional pain. So I think it's far more uh more likely that I might have chest pains and finally I'll give in and go to the doctor because physically I have to. I think men will push through emotional pain and cover it with self-destructive behaviors instead. So I'm not gonna go to a therapist, I'm not gonna call Dale to get individual divorce coaching. I'm gonna get a bottle of whiskey because it's easier, it's cheaper, and I'm it makes my predictable predictable, and you're gonna have a predictable ending. If you keep on reaching for whiskey rather than Dale's number, you're gonna get the same results. Don't push through pain, don't push through divorce pain. Um, especially when you have a great resource like Dale, get a therapist, you know, have a have a primary care care physician. These are all people that can help. Um so, Dale, you sat down with Ralph Brewer to discuss betrayal and trauma. Why do so many men allow one painful event to define the rest of their lives instead of becoming the catalyst for growth?

SPEAKER_00 9:47

You know, we we really have, I think society has super high expectations, which is rational and reasonable. We need to expect a lot of out of each other. Um, like I work with a lot of inmates, and and like I tell them, society expects 100% compliance to laws. That goes for you and me. So I can be speeding and get tit pulled over, and it doesn't matter that I say, hey, you know, uh 99% of the time I'm within the speed limit. The officer doesn't carry us. What are we doing at the moment? So that's a high expectation, and we have to have that. We also Americans have a really high expectation for performance, which is good. The nation, the world we live in is a product of a Western tradition, Christian tradition. Um, and part of that tradition is you it's up to you if it's going to be, it's up to me, and you got to work hard, individualism. Um, and so those high expectations, I think, do lead to us when we fail, um, just really defining ourselves by that. And that that failure, it really is a lie from the devil. You know, the devil says this happened to you, this, so this is who you are. Um, you know, betrayal says you'll never trust again. All of us have experienced betrayal. And after I went through what I went through, I was like, man, I am really gonna have a hard time trusting anybody. And I that probably wasn't a bad, bad thing to get a little more skepticism in there. A divorce says that you are a failure, you know. For me being a pastor and defining myself uh around those issues, then the failure piece was big, but uh honestly, I was comfortable with myself. I knew that I went a big major major part of it. So again, rightly looking at yourself, you know, the Bible says, you know, look at yourself in the correct uh perspective, the apostle Paul says. So if you know where you are and who you are and what the what's going on, you can trust God for the outcome. But there's still this stigma, right? Addiction definitely says you'll never change. And Chris, you've dealt with that a lot more than I have another thing in as far as chemical stuff. And I think appreciate your transparency around that. But addiction definitely, because it feels like you'll never change, right? I mean, if I'm thinking I'm a failure, then that's a change of thinking. But addiction is boy, when the cravings come, then it screaming, you are a failure, you'll never change. But really, in the end, uh those statements are only true as we give them, you know, space in our brain to define us. Um, one event may shape us, but it that really didn't have to define us. And in my book, I have a book on uh whole several chapters on failing and failing forward. And you look at all the people, famous people who failed, you know, Michael Jordan kicked out of his high school basketball team, you know, Elvis Presley told you're never gonna sing boy, you know, all these things, these amazing people who became a raging successes, because they just didn't let failure define them. So, you know, growth begins when men stop asking, why did this happen to me and begin asking, really, what can God do through this? And that's a hard thing to say in the middle of suffering, but it is truly where growth happens. So, and as we, I think Chris and I have proven in these last 10 years that your scar can become someone else's roadmap to healing. Second Corinthians 1, 3 says, We are comforted by God so that we can be comfort to others. And you know, for me, I had a choice to make. Am I just gonna be that guy in my underwear, watching, you know, football and six pack alone in a one-bedroom apartment, you know, doing other stupid stuff, or am I gonna be, you know, someone's gonna be an overcomer and able to help other people? And Chris, you had the same choice to make and you really pushed into it and have become amazingly successful despite going through a lot, I think worse than me. It's not worse than me. And that's a testimony to that is proof that we can believe the lie or we can trust in God to get us through this thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Well, I think that shame um, you know, can be a real albatross around the neck of a lot of people, especially men, can carry this shame. And I think that's why one painful event can start to define somebody's life if you don't ever confront that shame. And and you're right, you have you're right, Dale. Over over the last several years, I've been very open, you know, on this podcast about my past alcoholism and all that stuff. And I gotta tell you, you know, those voices, you know, when I was deep in addiction did tell me there was no way out. And um, it wasn't true, you know, in in that aspect. And um, I don't even carry that part of my life as a shameful part, I carry that as a badge of pride. Um, that I was able to overcome at least that one aspect. I haven't perfected everything about me, but I haven't I haven't had a drink in over six years. Like I can say that for a fact.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

That's a big one.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

It's a big one. And um, you know, that has definitely been a positive in my life. But guys, I think definitely look in the mirror and ask, you know, how much is shame playing a role? And I know we we've had episodes on shame and guilt, how guilt can be helpful and shame is not. I think that's something to look at too. And Dale, if a man is listening today and feels like he's hit rock bottom, whether that's addiction or this divorce is rock bottom, burnout, losing his family, where should he focus his first step?

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Well, I think the um the it always with God, it always starts with the truth. You know, uh Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by me. But he is the truth. So, so you know, Dallas Wheeler says, God can only deal with what is real. And and when we get into trouble, it's because we've chosen to not believe something that's real in the world around us. And the and the bottom line is uh reality is just what it's gonna be. I like to tell people that uh, especially our inmates here, that the the little R reality doesn't care about you and will always win in the end. So you can hate gravity, you can say it's some big system that's against you, you can take say it's personally gonna destroy you. Um, it doesn't care. If you jump off the top of the building, then gravity is just gonna do what it's gonna do and will always win. But in the in the bigger perspective, the big R reality, which is the kingdom of God, then God does care. That reality cares. In the end, reality is gonna still win. But the first step is just to say what is real in this moment. So tell the truth and you know, tell the truth to yourself, tell the truth to God, tell the truth to another person, trusted person. Um, that recovery begins when all that denial ends. And it's so maybe starting with, you know, if you're not the major cause of your divorce, and maybe saying, hey, really, I'm this really is terrible, and I need to get the help I need to get. I'm gonna build my team, you know. We always say, as you know, pastor, uh therapist, um, MDR, you know, divorce coaching, a good friend, um, a lawyer, financial advisor, medical doctor. This is the A team if you can get everybody on board. But you have to be truthful with that team. Um, but if you are the main cause of divorce through some addiction or some behavior, then telling the truth to yourself is the first step to building that new life. And as you guys hear us say, when you go through a divorce, then be sure you fix those addictions, do whatever cost pay whatever money it is and pay the time price and time and energy to get that addiction fixed so you don't uh inflict afflict yourself on another woman and her children. So it all starts with telling the truth and just saying what is what is reality. So not everything's gonna get solved today, uh, but you don't have to fix it your entire life in one week, but you got to take those next right steps. And you know, um you may be headed, like I like I said, uh like I told you about my own experience. I had a choice to make it. This is my first time in my life, I can do what I want. I was like, can I just maybe I should just go be a crazy man? But I've never had a chance to be and do destructive things. But then I decided I didn't want to be that. But if I'd started down that pathway uh of just of self-destruction, I wouldn't have been, I wouldn't have been destroyed immediately. But the end result, whatever direction you're going, the end result will you're gonna get where you're headed. So if I want to go to New York and I'm in Miami and I start headed down to the Everglades, I'm never gonna get to New York. It's a sure, it's a certainty. But um if I start on the way on the road to New York, I'm not gonna be in New York tomorrow. Well, maybe, but you know, not gonna be there instantly. So you're gonna end up eventually the direction that you're heading. So those first steps are really important. So definitely, if it's addiction you're dealing with, we heard about that, then go to those meetings, you know, find a counselor. If you're just struggling through divorce, then call us and talk to your pastor, build that team. Um, you know, we're big on physicality, you know. Uh, Chris took up boxing after his divorce. And that for men, I've been in a lot of resilience trainings for many different areas of law enforcement and other other areas of life. And for men, it's exercise really is proven to be an amazing thing to get us through. And um, and then spiritually, you just have to spend time with God. I mean, you just got to sit down, and God just talking to God is just talking to your friend. And it doesn't have to fancy, doesn't have to be an hour long. It can just be every morning waking up a little bit earlier, sitting down with your Bible and opening it up and saying, God, talk to me, and I'm gonna talk to Him to pour out your heart. Uh, Ephesians, uh, I mean, Philippians chapter four. All those little steps turn into a life that's that's really good and get you through the pain. But if you don't do those things, it just really prolongs recovery and grief that even can take you down a worse road than that. So small, faithful steps taken, they definitely consistently change lives. And if anybody's interested, I've just kind of been looking at the book Atomic Habits, and that's definitely the premise of that book. It'd be a definite rounded thing if you're struggling with change to uh uh to build those small habits that really do make a difference. So putting that good stuff in will definitely make a difference.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Absolutely. That's a great book, and I I think that's actually really good advice is is leveraging something like that as a resource to build small habits because the change doesn't happen all at once, it happens in little steps. Um, and I know my first step was just kind of almost admitting defeat um and starting to rebuild. So, in other words, you know, what what is often called in um you know recovery, surrender, um, you know, just uh and getting on my knees and saying, God, like I I give up. I I have I've lost this round. Help me help me rebuild. Um, like help me rebuild in the way that you want me to rebuild. And I think um I think that was my first step, both out of you know, addiction, but but but through through divorce recovery too, is just is just uh an absolute and utter surrender. Um so Dale, we both know men who have completely transformed their lives. What's the biggest mindset shift that you you've seen that separates men who recover from the men who stay stuck?

SPEAKER_00 20:35

That's definitely a great question. And um I I do remember what I was talking gonna say before, and that is that uh, you know, when people, men, especially strong men are hesitant to get the help they need because they're gonna say, I am the victim, right? Or I'm hurting and that looks like I'm the victim. The men who recover, you know, they do stop seeing themselves as victims and start taking responsibility for their future. But there's you know in my book I explained that there's a way to express yourself without being the victim. And we a lot of guys, they're just when you first get divorced or you're struggling with the pain of whatever situation you're in, it hurts so much you do need somebody just to unload on and hear that story over and over again. And it sounds a lot like a big old pity party for yourself. I've been there, I've done that. It's a pretty boring party, me, myself, and I, but you know, sometimes you just gotta have one of those. But if you stay stuck in that, in that pity party, then that is victimhood. The way to measure if you're not in that place, even though you're saying you're expressing your pain and suffering, is what steps are what actual steps are I actually taking to get out of it. So if someone comes to us and and you know, they're literally not doing anything to get better. You know, they're not going to any meetings if it's recovery, if they're not, you know, engaged in counseling, engaged in you know, their own spiritual disciplines, and they're just wallowing in that pain, you know, after a while you got to. Say, man, you know, it's like the patient coming into the doctor who's chronically sick, and patient says, I mean, the doctor says, Okay, here are the steps to take. And that patient, you know, a week later comes out, hasn't done a single thing, just sits there and complains for an hour. You go, okay, well, at some point you got to choose to take some steps forward, even though you may be suffering. So definitely those who recover, they they stop seeing themselves as victims, oh, even though they may express themselves that pain in a way that seems like they're kind of stuck in victimhood, but they do take responsibility for their future and um and they move forward. You know, again, we talk about in divorce that in divorce recovery that it's you know, eight 70 to 80 percent of all divorces are filed by women. A lot of times those women definitely have cause. A lot of times they don't. A lot of the people we get, the guys we get have wives that are borderline, narcissistic, you know, they really are the ones going, what just happened to me? Um, so I used to think as a pastor that divorce, when I had people coming into me, I said, Well, divorce, the cause is like 50-50. Yes, half your fault and half his fault. After having gone through it, I was like, no, I don't think so. And I recall one of our divorce coaches, he's in Alabama, saying, you know, his wife had multiple affairs with, you know, and they had four kids, and he spoke at some meeting about this, and some man came up and said, Okay, what's your partner's divorce here? And he said, You know what? I am not a perfect husband, but I didn't cause this. I, you know, this he did, she did with the majority of this. So I think divorce can usually the result cause be uh like portioned out to maybe 80, 20, 90, 10 or something like that. So if you're that 80, 90 percent, it's still not going to do you good to wallow in victim, it's just push forward into a better future. But if you're on the you're the 10 to 20 percent of this thing, and you really do feel like you've been victimized, um, which again, the majority of our guys that reach out to us do feel like that, and justifiably so, then you still have to make decisions to push through that pain and uh and take action steps forward. So, and the question isn't really whose fault is this? And I know for us men who want to fix things, we want answers. Then we just say, if I just understood why, you know, why did this happen to me? And I really went through that. Um, at some point you just got to go, you know, I'm probably never gonna understand why and just live with that uncertainty. But the that's not the whose fault is it? The next question really is what am I gonna do now? And men who recover really do embrace the ownership of their future and and step into that and take the hard steps necessary to get better. So, you know, uh the process that men go through going through divorce, I see it over and over again is is a the stage of maybe I can get her back, maybe I can, you know, maybe there's hope here. Um, at some point, you know, you come to this conclusion, no, that's not gonna happen. That's a positive step forward. You know, some people are waiting for justice in the court system. Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't. Um, sometimes they're waiting for life circumstances to change before they begin rebuilding. And sometimes they're they're uh they're just asking God for a miracle in their view. They're saying a miracle, uh, which means open my wife's eyes, bring her back. I had one case recently like that. I was shocked. I could not believe that I told this guy, I said, you know, um, she's gonna have to see what divorce really looks like. And I don't see her changing, but she did, and that marriage is going forward. So that, but all that was up to her. God gives us free choice. So if you're waiting for God to change something of make somebody do something against their will, then he won't do it. So I do see guys waiting to do that. Um, but anyway, wherever you are, there are a lot of contingencies. You're thinking if that if this was fulfilled, then then the then things would change and then I would change. But it's best to face reality where you are and then make best decisions based on what you know to be true with some hope in there as well. But definitely don't get don't make things worse by you know engaging self-destructive behavior that a lot of men do. And you know, you read the news and you see murders, homicide, suicide. Um, you know, uh it's it's bad things really happen if we let our minds go into those uh reaches. But but men who do recover really embrace the future and push into it, take those action steps necessary that are positive action steps. And yeah, one piece that I would just mention while we're here is is just to say yes to every positive indicate uh invitation. You know, we talk about that a lot, and all these guys come, I did say this. Don't say yes to the invitation to go to the strip club. That is not a positive invitation. And say yes to the family says, Come on over and have dinner with us, or let's go you know to a movie or whatever. So a lot of a lot of little things like that can help you get out of get out of the doldrums that you're stuck in.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

That was huge for me, Dale. That last piece of advice you gave is that I was fortunate that I met a lot of really good men along the way, and you're you're one of them. It was it was almost like God opened up his, I always say this, God opened up his ark of angels exactly when I needed it. And I just had all of these men come into my life and they would invite me to go to coffee or go to go to breakfast, you know, go go go to a go to a um or recover meeting or something like that. And it was just um, yeah, to I I mean, I didn't always want to go because I I felt sad. I just wanted to wallow. Um, but I went and um it was really helpful. So that's good advice, you know, to take take guys up on it if they're willing to help you. Um, one of the episodes we did, Dale, was called The Gift of Redemption, where we interviewed Dr. Chad Bird. And why is it so difficult for men to forgive themselves even after people around them already have? I think this is a really good question.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Boy, Chad's his story is man, he is a great story. I tell you, go back and listen to his story. I've I've had him speak for me um in the previous ministry work I was doing, and uh, and his, you know, he was really at the height, had all everything that he wanted, um, and just really screwed up. Man, I mean, there's no other way to say it. There wasn't a lot of sympathy for him. He said most of his friends wouldn't call him colleagues. He lost his job, lost amazing statue. He really, he's very super gifted, smart guy. And if if you want to listen to him on a podcast, then uh the 40 Minutes in the Old Testament put on by the 1517 uh coalition or whatever they're called, he he really unlike lays open the Old Testament. That's his place of scholarship. That's right. It's stunning to see somebody with his sort of uh brilliance and skills, you know, make a moral decision that left him. Literally, he opens up his book that I start reading. Um, I'm sitting on the floor of a one-bedroom apartment, I mean, of our apartment, watching my kids leave, crying in the back of the window with a 357 in my hand, you know, of an sitting on the floor of an empty house and like, ouch, man. Um, so you know, so he had a lot to more than I think most people have to work through. I think that that we men especially, we are meant to protect, provide, and procreate. And when we fail in those areas, a whole lot to be said about what those free roles mean in today's society for especially for young men. But when we fail in those areas, there shame really kicks in there, and we really do think that we are disqualified from being loved and first of all, being loved by God. And there literally is nothing that disqualifies you from not uh being loved by God. Can I say that right? Disqualifies you. There's nothing that disqualifies you disqualifies you from being loved by God except turning down the offer of Christ. I mean, if somebody offers you a gift and you don't take it, then you're not gonna experience that gift. But the giver of the gift does not qualify that gift and say, okay, you're you haven't done as bad as this other guy, so you're not gonna get it, but this other guy is. So um, and that really is true. I've talked with murderers who confess to multiple, multiple murders and you know, serial killing, and it's it's hard to say, but that does not disqualify that person from coming to Christ and getting all those sins forgiven. That's a tough one. But it's really ourselves that we convince ourselves that um that God cannot love us. So uh, you know, Jesus came, he knew every failure, every sin, every regret, and um you know that we experience, and he still went to the cross. So if God is willing to forgive us, then if we condemn ourselves, then we're really emptying the cross of its meaning, and we're also saying we know better than God who we are and what our sins are. So, you know, Romans 8:1 really says it best there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. So, you know, forgiving yourself isn't excusing what's happened, it's really owning what it is. You know, repentance is is uh is really coming face to face, like we talked about earlier, is coming face to face with the truth and saying, wow, I am in trouble because of this what I've done, but then embracing also the truth that a very uh forgiving God has paid the price through Christ so that we don't have to live in that disgrace forever. I think that's pretty, pretty amazing. So this is really every man has to go through this, every person, uh, the realization who we really are in front of a holy God, and then in the terror of that moment when that realization really hits, then to say, oh, but God has, despite that, has has embraced me through Christ and loves me. And that's pretty transformative. It's the most transformative thing you can ever embrace. So Chad was able to do it. You heard him, we go back and listen to that podcast. He's he really he's you know when you can tell your own story redemptively, where God is a hero and you are the one that is rescued, when you can share that story, then that means that it's real. You know, if you're still hiding the story, you know, still not able to share, here's what happened to me, but and God rescued me. Uh, if you can't say that, I've known guys who say they're Christians, they say they've repented, but they will not they will not own that piece of this of the story. But if you can, then prove positive that God is the hero of the story, and that's where that's who we should be, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Gosh, that's a really good point. I and I love the way you uh, you know, we are the damsel in distress at points in our life. Um we need we need God to come in there and save us. Um, that's a really actually good way to think about it. So we also talked about why men lose in divorce with Diana Romanov. So this goes to kind of to the legal aspects of divorce. So beyond the courtroom, where do you think men are are really losing and what can they start doing differently today?

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Oh man, yeah, that was really great. What an amazing person. Wow, everyone being able to practice law in California and Germany. I believe she's from Germany. I mean, it's really she is, I don't know, she's very, very accomplished person, very super smart. Um, but when it comes to men losing, guys, we men in America and the Western world really are in a in an interesting space. Uh, you know, what does biblical masculinity look like? It doesn't look like becoming more like women. The left kind of teaches us if you just become more womanized, then we'll accept you, even as they promote, you know, empowering women and becoming more masculine. And it doesn't look like what the far right, Andrew Tate, recently arrested in Miami, I heard just today. It doesn't look like that where you hate women and you just have to be aggressive and powerful. It definitely biblical manhood is definitely uh you know servant leadership, um, servant you're you're sacrificing yourself in in service of your community. And that takes a lot of strength, both both to embrace that humility and to embrace the the assertiveness, assertiveness that it takes to kind of stand in the way of evil. But men are losing, you know, especially through suffering divorces spiritually, emotionally, relationally, physically. And I think uh in in many ways we're being pushed into isolation. I mean, study this social science is very clear that people are isolating. It's way more, uh, I'm sorry, there's way less teen sex now because teens aren't actually getting together. They're sitting there on their phones and isolated and playing video games and stuff. We've definitely seen the decline of church and church attendance, uh, loss of transcendence and enchantment in our world. Um, there's less friendship. The uh, you know, Robert Putman Putman from uh Harvard, his book, Bowling Alone, now like 20, 25 years old, just measures that um social capital has declined so much in America. So we really are, we're really losing very much at the moment. Um, the answer to that is definitely not to continue engaging in these isolating behaviors, but to really embrace uh reaching out and building communities. So if you're divorced, uh you're going through addiction, these things that we've talked about the past few months, then then isolation especially will only lead to more loss. So we need each other, we really need a tribe, a few trusted men who know your story and will challenge, encourage, and walk beside you as a as a Catholic. Chris would say, come to the Catholic church. And I would say too, you've got to get engaged in a church. And you're not gonna find the perfect church, and uh you're gonna find plenty of reasons not to engage in a church or go to the church, but um, that is that's a lie from the devil. I encourage you to think of church not as a like an NFL locker room where you're seeing the best specimens of humanity pump their massive muscles, you're going into a rehab or one step forward, you know, is a big victory. So uh don't judge Christianity by the people that are in that church. Instead, say, I'm gonna be part of that church, I'm gonna be part of that body and uh sit under the preaching and teaching and um and take people warts and all for who they are and engage, especially find a church with a strong men's ministry, whatever your denomination is, and um let them coach you and push you through it. So isolation really is is what's happened in our society, every single level. So the answer to that is just not to be isolated, push back against that.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

I I think also one of the biggest ways that men lose in a divorce, especially particularly men who have children um who are going through divorce, is elevate your dad game when you get a divorce. Don't be don't be making your ex-wife's life hell um in big because you allow the children to do whatever the heck they want at your place because you want to be the fun dad. You want to be the dad who's gonna make sure that they eat nothing but fast food and and and ice cream. You're gonna let them sleep wherever they want to sleep. You're gonna you're gonna let them have a buffet for for dinner every night. You're not helping your children. You're not helping your ex your ex-spouse who is now your co-parent. Okay, she's she's not your wife anymore, but she will always be your co-parent. Whether that's parental parallel parenting or or co-parenting, be a good dad. Um, I'm gonna I'm gonna lay lay that out as something that men can start doing differently today outside of the courtroom. There's there's no court order needed for you to be a solid dad, to, to hold to to uh to to to parent as best as you can with with with your ex, um, and to um and to just make sure you stay true to to strong parenting um skills and and best practices. Don't because I just I see this a lot from guys is is we want to be we want to be the fun ones. We want we want the kids to have a good time when they come over and and just always think about how fun dad's house is and how you know strict mom's house is. We don't need to be doing that. We need we need to be on the same page with uh with with uh with the with the mother of the children as well. That that's my that that's one of my takeaways from the last five years of my life is um, and I'm so glad I'm now on more of a co-parenting footing. We're not friends, but I'm on a co-parenting footing with my ex-wife where we can communicate about stuff. And um I know that the one thing I will say about her is I know that she doesn't do anything that she does everything in the best interest of the kids, and so do I. Um then we not may not always agree what the best interests of the kids are, but we don't try to do anything that damages the relationship with with with the with the kids and the other co-parent. So be good dad.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

So that's very good. Burnout.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

What's that?

SPEAKER_00 38:36

That's great advice, no doubt about that.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

I appreciate that. So burnout doesn't always happen overnight. We talked to Keith Cole about this. Looking back on your own life, what warning signs did you ignore that you'd encourage men, other men to pay attention to in regards to burnout?

SPEAKER_00 38:52

I think you know, Keith was an amazing guy with an amazing history military, and he'd been in those clearly very difficult situations. Um and for me, I've you know, pastor to church, which to me is the most stressful thing you could probably ever do. Um, maybe not being maybe being in combat is a little more, but church is a little bit like a little bit like combat. But um, so I never have been to that place of just crashing, you know. But I would say that uh if you're your life, I think to me is about balance and it's it's paying attention to every important thing in your life a little bit every day. People think well, it has to be this gigantic investment. No, it doesn't look your kid in the eye for 10 minutes and you know, just all these things are small and that will really prevent burnout. But um, you know, if you're finding yourself just becoming emotionally numb, then that's not a good sign if you're just a flat affect. Of course, if you start getting really uh angry or feeling depressed and sad and that kind of thing, um, if those emotions start showing up more in your life, if you're having more sleep disruptions, then these are signs that things aren't going well. Again, in law enforcement, we work a lot with with uh people that are doing shift work, they're doing very hard things, they're seeing a lot of terrible things, they're always in an environment of conflict and violence, um, even if it's not happening at the moment. So what I tell them, and goes for everybody, is you just got to pay attention to the habits that you have. And um, and if you're if the if you have a vice that's at a minimal level, like having two or three beers a week, and that turns into 10 or 12 or or something like that, if you find yourself becoming more short with people. Um, Dallas Willard, this great USC professor of philosophy, amazing Christian. Someone asked him, Dr. Willard, how do you know how you're doing? Your soul is doing. And he you would he could have given you an amazing, literally an academic response to that that probably could have filled a 50-page book or something. But he said, Well, I just ask myself two questions. Am I getting more or less discouraged? Am I getting more or less short with people? That's a pretty good little measure to say, you know, how how am I doing? If you start seeing people as problems rather than people, you know, that's dangerous. If you become cynical, it's this we live in the age of cynicism. And man, cynicism is cheap. It makes you sound smart, makes you sound like you know it all, to be cynical about whatever situations going on in the world. And it also said, I'm out, I'm I'm giving up on that. Um, but that means you're giving up on life and engaging in life, you're giving up on people, and that's not healthy. Um, obviously, physical exhaustion, irritability, you know, if you're having trouble thinking, if you're finding yourself isolating more, you lose joy in your work and that kind of thing. These are signs on the dashboard. So remember that just like your dashboard on your car, warning lights, you know, don't get mad at the light. Don't don't curse the light, don't curse the uh the check engine light. The right response is not to shoot the engine light, it's to open the hood and say, okay, what's really going on inside? That's where you can build a team to really help you. You know, I'm a big, I love working, I work very, very hard. Um, but I've learned sometimes my body just says, you need to rest. You've got to sit back and rest. I know, Chris, you are just under the gun, you're working your tail end off. And uh we both in a place where kind of need to remember that even Jesus withdrew to lonely places to pray and to rest. And it, you know, we say even Jesus, but I think that's why he was so powerful. One of the reasons he's so powerful, because he that was a priority for him, was to uh have Sabbath and uh spend time with his father in rest. So if the Son of God needs rest, so do we. I don't want to at all encourage laziness because there are plenty of lazy men in the world, and that is just not cool. You need to be active and working, but uh there's two extremes laziness, we seem to experience a lot of that with men, or just the overworking. Just strike a good balance between those two.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

I I think that's great advice. And uh I'm gonna listen to it because um yeah, definitely, definitely a lot of a little bit of burnout going on on my end right now. So appreciate that. Um, if you could sit down with with a version of yourself before sobriety doesn't count for you, Dale, but counts for me before the trauma, before burnout. Um, what's the one piece of advice you'd give that man, you know, before any of this took place? Before the day you came home and and your and your place was was emptied out, like that that story is just like if you could talk to to yourself and give yourself a piece of advice the day before, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 43:28

Is this is a good answer different choice in marriage partner? Is that a is that a possibility here? I'm not sure my actual hearing this, but uh gotta be careful there, right? Um, I think uh in my case, I think I would I would choose to be more assertive in leadership and in saying what I really thought. You know, a group of very conflicted, my dad is a very strong guy, and I just kind of learned to sit down and shut up and keep the peace. But I think I would have been more assertive. Hey, you know, I don't like what you're doing, or you know, I don't like how you're acting. Uh, work work on just work on it more, be more vocal and just say, maybe just a point saying, Hey, I don't know what's going on here. This isn't right. We did some of that, but I think it would have been more assertive in that kind of thing. Um, I also think uh just vocationally, I think I wish I wish I'd gotten out of pastoring a little sooner and said, you know, this is not really working for me. I could when you're in it, just like you are in this anxiety can and the pressure, it feels like you just have to do it. Sometimes you do just have to do it, but um, you know, ignoring that pain, ignoring that suffering is is not healthy and will lead to some problems. Um, you know, I think I when my life fell apart, I'd preached about it for years and years. God has got everything in control. You know, we can be at peace. I had so many sermons I preached about it, but boy, when it when injustice happens to you at that level, it is hard to own that. It's it just is hard to uh trust God. I mean, I should I wish I could have been Joseph in the prison saying, you know, God's got this. Instead, I was Joseph in the prison raging. And uh that I don't think that's very helpful for me or those around me. So there are definitely some things I would change. But mostly getting someone around me that could really be helpful. I did have three people, my sister, a counselor in uh here in Austin, and then a counselor up in New England, a psychologist, and all those pool did help me get through and keep me from going down the bad paths.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Well, I Dale, I know it was a little bit tongue-in-cheek when you said, you know, okay, you know, a different choice in marriage partner, but actually, you know, for a lot of men, if they're considering, you know, going into another marriage or getting another relationship, that is a real, a real thing. And um, I think that is good advice is be very, very careful about your second, because as we've discussed in this podcast a lot, this divorce rate for second marriage is even higher. And third third marriage is like three groups. Because at that point, it's just like I I think it's probably just because you're so used to it, it's just so easy to do. So, yeah, I I think you know, Dale and I are great examples of uh of people who who marry married up. Um, you know, Kelly's fantastic, Megan's fantastic, and um it's it's such a difference. I mean, it's such a difference. Uh I just and and um but it's because I think also I knew exactly what I wanted and what I didn't want, and I and I wasn't really gonna settle. Um I would have rather stayed single. And uh I I I think I think that's that that is that that is good advice for men is be careful uh of of who you who you go forward with the rest of your life with. And if need be, if you want to and and you live a life of service and and you're single, that's okay too. There's nothing wrong with that. There's a lot of people that are happy that way.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

Yeah, yeah, that's very true. Good point for sure.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

Yeah. So last question. So after everything we've discussed across these episodes, what do you hope every man listening remembers when when this conversation is over today, Dale?

SPEAKER_00 47:04

I know there's some guys that are going to be hearing this that you're right in the middle of it. It's we Chris and I were there. It is so hard. The pain is really way more than people understand. If you haven't been through divorce, you don't understand, you know, that pain. Um, I hope you don't ever go through divorce, but if you're listening to this, you're probably in it. Um, and you know, I would definitely encourage you when you're in that place that Chris and I will tell guys all this all the time, you will recover. I mean, it's not like you know, who's gonna win the Super Bowl this year, my team. Um, but probably not, you know, or going to a doctor and getting cancer diagnosis, you know, that doctor cannot tell you with you know 99% certainty that you're gonna recover from that that cancer unless it's unless it's known to happen. But you know, if you're going through divorce, there's tons of divorce guys, it they will say it hurt, but we got through it. So if you don't self-destruct, then then and you hang on to the the pathway that's productive and healthy, then you will get through it. Um know that you're not alone. I know you feel isolated. We have guys listening in 85 countries. I remember when when we first started, there was a guy in Croatia. One guy in Croatia listening to us. I was like, oh, this poor guy in Croatia. So you aren't alone. I remember one guy in uh Malawi had him on as uh uh our one of our guy guests said, You and Chris were my family for like two years. So even if it's through a podcast, you're not alone, but we can also help you not be actually alone and notice that you're also not beyond redemption. The devil definitely wants to tell us that you're no good and that you're disqualified. You're not disqualified. Um, and then what we say, and especially working with people who've experienced a lot of trauma, that you're and then act out of that trauma in very in actual criminal ways that you know, trauma can explain, but it doesn't excuse. Um, you know, and so on the other flip side of that is you've been traumatized, but it doesn't define who you are. Um you're not defined by that trauma. Your divorce is definitely not the end. It may look like it, it's a slow go, there's no quick way out of it. Um, your addiction's not the end, betrayal's not the end, your burnout's not the end. Um, God, if you read the Bible, it's all about people just like us that are at the bottom in the middle of horrible stories. And God loves resurrection stories. It's as uh Tony Campbell used to say, it's Friday, but Sunday's coming. So your Friday looked pretty bad. Saturday was a long waiting day, but Sunday was resurrection, and it really does happen. The next chapter of your life really can be stronger, wiser, healthier, and filled with more purpose than anything you've experienced before. You know, Richard Rose Fond is saying the second half of your life as a man can be better than your first. Not saying that's very true in my life for sure. But it does start today and in with those little steps. So um, we always say, guys, you know, don't make it worse. This is your place, not make it worse. And then to finish, uh, determine that you are going to finish well at the end of the day, that that you're not gonna be the guy in your in your white underpants, and as the Steve Martin has that song, Atheist Ain't Got No Songs or something. It's pretty funny. But you don't want to be the guy in your uh in your white underpants watching football and uh you know on Sunday afternoon and half drunk and all the other stuff that goes along with that. God has something better for you guys.

SPEAKER_01 50:19

I agree, and I think the the the one um thing that I'd like folks to take away is Dale's spot on with all of this, and it won't happen without a strategy or without help. So you will recover, but you do need everything, you you do need that team that Dale keeps on talking about. You need you need a divorce coach like Dale, you need a primary care, you need a therapist, you need family, you need friends, you need all of that stuff together. And if you do that and and you take active steps and you don't just sit and sulk every day, you you will you will uh recover from this part of your life, from this divorce. And one day you'll look back and there'll be lessons and and um and and you can come out of it a a better person, a wiser person, a better dad. Um, so that's I guess the takeaway I'd like um folks to have from from this is just um, you know, if you listen to folks like Dale and you take action. And also, you know, I I know a lot of guys have have listened to us over the last several years. And I listen to a lot of podcasts. And one of the nice things about podcasts is that you get to form almost this relationship with with the host. Um, you know, I'm sure a lot of folks feel like they know a lot about Dale and I, you know, just from listening to our voices on your car rides, you know, by yourself. Well, guess what? You have actual access to somebody like Dale. Um, you know, don't forget we're we're real people. And um Dale's here to help you. So I just want to leave you with with that also. Um so Dale, thanks for a great discussion. I wanted to let everybody and all of our listeners know that I'm actually gonna be stepping away from MDR to focus on my work and my large family. So for those of you who who aren't following along, I have a wife, I have five children, I have three dogs, and I have a prairie dog. So my house is constantly a prairie dog.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Oh, that's a new one.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Oh, yeah. The I mean, there's just there's so much going on. And I have a very demanding full-time job, and so does my wife. And it's just um, it's it's really been an honor of my life to walk this journey with you, Dale. I owe you so much. Um, Dale has been there from me crying on the floor of my bathroom um as I was going through my divorce, you know, desperately searching for a resource and I found your book on Amazon, to being there, you know, as I went through my my formal divorce, my annulment through the Catholic Church, which took forever, um, but but it got done, and being there on the altar for my second marriage with with the woman of my dreams who I love dearly. So my one goal in actually um uh uh coming on board with MDR was to increase the number of men who heard your message, Dale. That's what I wanted, is that what what I the help I was getting, I knew that we could amplify your voice. That's what I wanted to do was to amplify your voice. And I hope these last several years have helped men um uh like me. You know, I I I know it has. I hope these last several years have helped a lot of guys. Um, and I wish you the best on your future journey and the future of MBR. And guys, I will always be praying for every single one of you. So back to you, Dale.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

Oh, hey man, Chris, thank you so much. I I remember when you first reached out to me, I remember exactly where I was, uh, at exactly where I was in near But, Texas. You took a chance on calling me, and uh it's a really an and a real honor for any guy to reach out and say, Hey, help me through this. And Chris did it. Uh he was in a hard place just like I had been. And um, but you did overcome. I mean, you truly are the success story that we know that can happen, but not just surviving, but really thriving beyond divorce. And you said, Hey, we can we can reach more guys, and man, that has truly happened. Beginning with the website, uh, you really made that happen, and then uh the podcast has been crazily successful. I think we're 200,000, 250,000 downloads, which is crazy, and almost half the countries of the world, a third of the, yeah, half the countries of the world. And so that is really that's something that never would happen without Chris. I guarantee you that would not happen without Chris. I'm just not that guy. Um, but he has shown me a way and has helped make this happen so much. Um, and as I said before, you're exactly the uh recovered divorce man that we want for everyone. So, Chris, a huge thank you to you. I know for everything that you are and everything that you've done. It's been an amazing ride. And we'll definitely stay in touch, but I have you back as a guest, right? Um, so uh again, I just want to emphasize that this isn't the end of MDR podcast, we'll continue. Uh, I think we're gonna have Dr. Anthony Baker coming up as a guest. Uh, we're gonna continue the podcast. It'll probably rate about one per month until we can uh uh figure that out. Um, you're welcome to call me for coaching. Uh my phone number 978-204-0480. There it is. You can text me, call me. Uh, the website is back online, it's being revised. And then we started a foundation, Minister Horse Recovery Foundation, and we encourage you to give to that. That will help us get back up online with some of the expenses that we have and and uh and redoing our website and that kind of thing. Um the plans for the future, hope to get stuff up on YouTube. The uh the videos that we have, the 10 videos, we hope to have those free on YouTube using AI to upgrade those. And um also I hope to expand my work in uh with helping men in pain, because I deal as a hospice chaplain with men who are dying. It's my work as a chaplain in a very large scale of 2,500 inmates, you know, incarcerated men and divorcement. So if you're a man and you're in pain, then we hope to expand that ministry. So anyway, uh, you know, it's really been a great privilege, Chris. You're an amazing guy, and uh look forward to seeing what God's gonna do and continue to do in your life and pray that you'll get some of that rest that you need, brother. Because it's been a crazy ride and you are really taking on a lot, but you are awesome. Um, just a couple of reminders. Uh, my book on Amazon Daily Survival Guide for Divorced Men, it's on Amazon, it's on Apple. Uh, you can do paper, uh ebook, or or on Amazon you can do Audible. We have a library of over 100 podcast episodes. Um, Chris, we hope I hope to be able to categorize those and make it easier for guys to kind of say, here's one, two, three, four, the stages of divorce, get to those. Um, as I mentioned, we're gonna have a presence on YouTube and other social media. Uh coaching is also available, and then giving to the foundation is all that is available on mincedivorse recovery.org. So anyway, the future is bright. And uh, Chris, you've really you've done just what you said you wanted to do, and that is to expand out. And boy, the expansion has been way more than I anticipated. Look forward to that continuing for sure, brother.

SPEAKER_01 57:09

Thanks, Dale, and thanks everybody for listening today.