Is AI the end of Coaching or its Renaissance with Lewin Keller

As technology accelerates, does our humanity risk being left behind? In this episode of the Humain Coaches series, Susan Caesar sits down with Lewin Keller, a visionary leader bridging the gap between high-growth tech and deep human development.

From his meteoric rise at Google to founding CoachBot.ai, Lewin shares how we can use "Governed AI" to reach "seekers who dare" without losing the "ancient art of listening". We explore why coaching is becoming the vital connective tissue of our society and how technology, when properly governed, can actually make us more human.

Key Takeaways:

• Why coaching is required to navigate modern complexity.
• The concept of Governed AI: Maintaining ethical standards while scaling impact.
• Moving from "soul-tired" and overwhelmed to becoming a "presence bearer" in a digital world.
• Lessons from Google on scaling teams with a human-centric mindset.

About Lewin Keller 

Lewin is the founder of CoachBot and a specialist in scaling human-centered AI for enterprise L&D and coaching providers. A former Google manager and sales director turned professional coach, Lewin bridges the gap between high-growth technology and the ethical depth of professional coaching. He is the creator of CoachBot Studio, a no-code platform that allows experts to design secure, research-backed AI coaching agents that extend human capability. Driven by his focus on wellbeing and long-term impact, Lewin works with global partners to ensure that AI serves to deepen, rather than dilute, the integrity of human development.

https://coachbot.ai/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/lewin-keller/

Host: Susan Caesar

https://www.humain.org/

Transcript

Tempo: 120.0

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Welcome. If you've been following my work at Humane, you know we spend a lot of time looking at how organizations can remain resilient and humane in this age of rapid acceleration. But there is another layer to this story, one that is quieter, more personal, and perhaps even more vital. I've come to believe that as our technology becomes faster and more automated, our humanity must become deeper. We are moving into an era where coaching isn't just a professional service, it's becoming the connective tissue of our society, a human fabric that helps us navigate complexity in every domain, from our schools and hospitals to how we lead our communities and care for our planet. That is why I'm launching this separate series, Humane Coaches. While humane leadership focuses on the how of organizational resilience, humane coaches is a dedicated space for the who. It is a global inquiry into coaching wisdom, exploring what it means to be a presence bearer in a world that often feels soul tired and overwhelmed. In this show, we aren't just talking about productivity or performance metrics. We are talking about presence, human development and transformation. We are talking about the ancient art of listening and the modern necessity of helping humanity grow wiser as we co-evolve with the systems we've built. Whether you're a professional coach, a leader holding space for others, or simply someone curious about how we stay human together, there is a place for you here. So welcome, Levin. Would you like to introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Thank you, Susan. Yes, very happy to. Uh my name is Levin Keller. I'm 37 years old, uh married, having three kids. I live in the beautiful Black Forest that's the south of Germany, opposite side of Mindick, close to the French and to the Swiss border. And if you hear the names of those countries, then you know the quality of life is high. Couldn't feel more blessed.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Sounds fabulous. What's top of mind for you at the moment when you think about AI in coaching?

SPEAKER_00 2:33

I love that. Thank you. So, top of mind for me is that there's a lot of people out there aiming to use AI responsibly, building tools on their own, customizing tools that are already out there in order to create client impact. And the fundamental issue that I'm observing, um, especially talking to coaching providers and enterprise organizations, is that oftentimes there is no impact because they lack adoption. This is the fundamental and number one topic that really is driving me to explore ways and to make it count and actually uh make sure the tools that we're building, if they're designed correctly and if they're implemented with care and with design, and they're also creating an impact.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

I'm curious, Sarah, you talked about uh the tools and the lack of adoption and usage, if you like. And that is that do you see that as a barrier?

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Yeah, that's a good question. I think we have to differentiate, first of all, a little bit on the theoretical side that there's two types of tools. On one side, we have AI-native tools. Well, they can be built by coaches, they can even be monitored or supervised by by coaches, by human coaches. That means they have the human in the loop. Um, but they're doing the delivery fully autonomous. Uh, we usually say AI-led coaching. And then we have human-led coaching that has some forms of AI. And again, here we have sometimes AI-led coaching workflows. These are part of a coaching journey that we're handing over for the AI to lead, or we're having AI tools that are not at all leading, they're rather working in the background by supporting with analytics or other things. And I believe oftentimes we do not differentiate enough before we set different expectations. That means an AI native coach needs a totally different adoption than a coach that augments the like an AI coach that augments the human coach between sessions. Why is that? Because if there is literally no adoption on the AI native coach, there is literally no impact because there hasn't been any work or conversation done. Whereby if a human coach delivers group or one-on-one coaching programs or any sessions and there is a low AI adoption, you know, that's interesting. We're curious of why. Was there maybe the wrong tool, the wrong audience, the wrong communication? But fundamentally, the um success of the coaching journey is not necessarily um kind of jeopardized. So yeah, we really need to understand what is our audience, what is the tool, what is the purpose, and then what is the adoption we want to get in order to even make sense of those numbers. Now, coming back to what you say is um, I feel we need to do a better job in getting the expectations right. Well, whose expectations? Obviously, the end users, because if we don't introduce the tool correctly to them, there is no chance for them to meet our expectations, but also the people who are buying the tool, maybe an HR or you know, an LD department, um, but also the people who are building the tools. Is it the infrastructure level, meaning the the tech, the LLM, and all these things, or is it the workflow level above, the ones who are customizing for this particular maybe organization or culture or a type of employee or whatsoever? And only if we manage to set the expectations right for all those groups, which is not easy, then we have a chance to succeed with adoption. And a very interesting point here is that we need custom metrics. We cannot just go with the same metrics for every type of organization, for every type of project, for every type of audience.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

There's a lot there to unpack, actually. So I'm just thinking, you know, which is the thread that we should pick to kind of just go a little bit deeper. Which red thread would you pick uh from everything that you've just described?

SPEAKER_00 6:44

What makes a coaching program or a coaching session successful? That's a good place to start.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Well, I guess uh so if we think about a coaching session and what makes it successful, actually it's probably the same as what you've just described in terms of adoption, because in a coaching session, we're there really to help the client achieve whatever they are wanting to at the end of that session. So it's I was gonna say user-led, but it's actually in this context client-led. But then when we think about how you've described the design of AI, that again needs to be user-led. It's how do we design to meet the needs of or the expectations of a user? So if we go back to that coaching session and how we make that successful and how AI can be involved in that, because you've described AI that is delivering the client's experience without a human, but you've also described AI delivering the client's experience with the support of a human, the coach. In both of those scenarios, again, they're both going to be looking at how they can help the client, but I guess you've also mentioned metrics and how we understand that. Differentiating between the experience of an AI and the experience of a coach. I think they're very different experiences. How are you thinking about that in terms of the design that you use within your platform?

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Yeah, wonderful. Maybe this is a good moment to also quickly talk about my role as the founder and CEO of Coachboard AI. We're a technology infrastructure layer for coaching providers to build customized AI coaching and learning agents that they can then deploy to teams and organizations. Um, for those who lack that context, now it might be a little more clear what we're doing. We're not building one AI coach that we're distributing, but we're actually allowing each coaching provider to build their own tools. Um, and we are with the infrastructure helping them to make that easy. What you just said is is very important. What is the differentiation between what the human coach does and what the AI coach does? If we think about our coaching journey and we say every coaching journey starts with some kind of coaching agreement, what is within our ability, even between client and coach or coaching coach to achieve, and then setting somewhat a reasonable goal that is on one side ambitious and feels like this is where the client wants to go, but also this is where the coach can buy in to say, okay, I'll I'll I'll commit to that. Let's go, let's go this path together. And then we're having this kind of transformation that is happening in the various different forms and shapes. And then afterwards we have some form of wrap-up and conclusion, right? And there's many different steps in between. Um, and that is very custom from journey to journey. But if we think of our coaching journey, no matter if it's a session or a program, and we start by understanding which of these different, let's say, phases of the coaching can be done by an AI or must be done by a human, we're already off to a great start because then we can better align with whoever is the stakeholder, might be the IHR, the IT, whoever else has the budget or is involved in the buying process of an organization, or maybe also the end user of the program of the tool, to help them understand, aha, okay, this is why we have different players in this kind of coaching journey. And I'm talking here about the human or the AI-led support. Then what is even more important is that we need to come back to the fact that even if an HR buys, for example, a coaching program or coaching sessions from a coach or coaching provider, they're usually setting a certain framework. But we as coaches, we know it will not be the same work, the same goal for each of the participants of this coaching program because everyone is so different, right? So what makes it a great coaching program or session for one person will likely be different from the other, even if they're maybe in the same team or in the same department or working under the same talent budget. So coaching is eventually for me as a coach a super personalized experience. And it's totally fair to say that if we're talking about executive coaches versus talent programs or a big transformation project, they all come with certain characteristics. Oftentimes we see certain methodologies across different areas, and yada yada, there's a lot of kind of custom attributes that where we just see patterns and we can match them. However, eventually we must come back to that fundamental principle that coaching is about the individual. And the coach, with all their experience, wisdom, expertise, um, they come with a certain framework and certain options, but eventually it's their commitment to this individuality of the client that makes the coaching session likely successful. And with that, when we let's say build a tool that comes for a certain client group, having the same metrics for everyone, that might already be somewhat contradictory. So, how can we, let's say, sell a tool to, for example, an organizational buyer in a way that we promise certain KPIs, metrics, gains, but at the same time allow the individual within the same, let's say, area or framework, find KPIs, metrics that for them apply. And all of that, so that maybe the human that is involved can also handle this entire process. It's really difficult to say this is the one way how we measure the success of a coaching program. And with that, it's also very difficult to say this is how we measure the success of an AI tool, for example. And engagement is easy, that's very universal. But the moment we come to the quality of the coaching, how many new thoughts did we create, how many problems did we solve, what new kind of, you know, let's say, beliefs did we maybe shape, or what did we transform, then every coach probably, or every coaching school, every coaching provider has a different point, uh, and every organization, every culture has a different point. And with that, um, yeah, measuring the quality is a science itself.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

There's three things, I guess, that came to mind as you were describing what you see and how you're approaching that space. So the first thing is personalization. So if I think about my background in transformation, digital transformation for customers, for employees, a lot of that is around understanding what are the needs and expectations of your customer, of your employee, and how might we meet them in the moment. So, how do we differentiate and personalize that experience based on knowing what they're what the signals they're showing us in in time? Then if you combine that with the power of AI in being able to spot patterns, to understand context, and to surface new or novel ideas in that experience, I think that's a very powerful opportunity. And I think in there also is where the data points, the the KPIs will come from those signals that happen in that moment, in that experience. So I'll come back to that. So one was around personalization, one was around the data there. But I guess the third thing that surfaced for me as you were describing that is the fact that I think the truly transformational moments within a coaching session are deeply human. And so I think differentiating between what a coach is able to achieve for a client and what an AI experience does or an AI platform does, they're very different. And so I think there is a need for us to be reclaiming that space of the human coach. Actually, do you want to talk about that a little bit? What do you see the the very different experiences between an AI platform and a coach?

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Absolutely. I'm actually getting really tired of the conversations that are out there about AI is going to replace human coaching or can it replace it? Because no, it's an AI conversation. Even if it would meet as many attributes as possible because you know it's advancing its technical capabilities, it will never be a human conversation because it's an AI conversation. Just by the nature of this difference, it will never replace the human coach. It might replace some of the benefits that other humans receive while experiencing human conversation, uh, or replace not even the right word, but it might you know fulfill or potentially meet or exceed even some of those benefits. But it's not this conversation to have. It's really it's a stupid question, in my opinion. So we should we should be moving on. And we should ask ourselves when we talk about AI coaches, and there is all these famous technology companies that have now built an AI coach that is kind of an AI coach generalist, it can do a lot of things. Then we as human coaches know the moment we tried this tool, wait, this is not a coach. I mean, it has some elements of coaching, but it's in the first place a productivity tool, also definitely a mentor because it's giving a lot of solutions and advice. Um and then at aspects, it comes with soccer questioning and reflections and so forth. But this is not what we as professional coaches would consider a human coach. This is the whole part of AI democratization in coaching. And this is where we're talking about the use case of the big corporation, and they're already investing into learning and development, and uh, their executives, their talent programs have already coaching access in terms of programs or one-one sessions, but about 85% of the organization have never had a coaching conversation. And now they're saying, wait, we want to give them also something that is a coach-like experience. And here, the definition of an AI coach is not the one of a human coach, it's really this mix of different methodologies like consulting, coaching, mentoring, um, sometimes even therapy, depending on the tool, and mixed into something that is perceived helpful. Again, how do we measure it? Is it the engagement that we're measuring, like for example, with um a GPT, a Gemini, a Claude, or is it more the value of the answers that we're getting? Are we, when we think about GPT, measuring the amount of hallucinations or the level of quality or the depth of the conversation when using an LLM? No. Everyone is talking about weekly active users. It's about it's engaging. Um so what are we optimizing for? And these AI tools, in my experience, they're built for adoption and let's say fine-tuned or optimized for engagement. So when we're talking about the democratization of coaching, it's really difficult to measure an engagement, in my opinion. And we should measure in what is the actual impact that we want to measure. And this could be changing the mindset, brainstorming new ideas, the fresh thoughts that I talked about earlier, or um changing beliefs, or building social skills or human skills. This is where the custom metrics come again into play. On the other hand, when we're not talking about the democratization of coaching, we can talk about human-led coaching as we know it for over 30 years, with one-one or group coaching sessions. Here, AI has the power to transform the nature of coaching from being episodic to become a continuous process. This is the cool part. Not every two weeks, one session, not only four sessions because of budget. No, it's a continuous process, and the coaching journey can unfold in new levels of depth, of availability, and so forth. This is the one benefit. The second benefit we're only learning about now, we're avoiding people looking for help elsewhere. Why would we want that? Maybe as an employer, I dislike the fact that my employees are looking for support in their mental well-being with some tools, let's say, like a ChatGPT or other LLMs, that you as an employer do not provide. We know those tools are out there, they're for free, they offer help. People are naturally, you know, kind of um drawn to them. Um, but let's say the employer hasn't built yet the infrastructure or doesn't have the funds or whatever reasons to create this in a protected environment. What are those protections? Data security. If I'm using the tool and talking about some kind of sensitive information or even work secrets, are they somewhere stored in safety and not handed over to third parties and where it shouldn't? But also psychological safety. Do those tools have the guardrails in order to protect, for example, the psychological safety of the user when things move a little further into areas like therapy, for example? Here, as an employer, I actually have to take the responsibility that if I offer coaching, which is episodic, which is likely just in a short amount of time, again, four or five sessions, maybe once a year, or for executives, it's going to be a little more. What happens in between? Because we all know as human beings, growth, personal growth is not just happening in the coaching session, right? It's happening in the moment, in the context of our lives and jobs. And this is where we need support oftentimes, and this is where we then turn to these other tools. And this can be a harmful experience for either the individual or as well or only the organization. And this is where it's becoming so powerful now to use AI as an additional layer of support, for example, in between coaching sessions, or also before the coaching session even starts, in order to onboard the user, do an assessment in a nice conversational way versus an old school questionnaire, or helping the user to brainstorm already a little bit about goals. Or if they're new to coaching, just start with this basic conversation: what is coaching versus mentorship versus therapy? Because this would all be valuable time that will be taken away from the human coach, especially if there's only a limited budget available or limited human resources available. And this is where AI can really complement. And now coming back to your point, again, we need to understand what part of the coaching journey will be done by the human, by the AI, and how do we expect different outcomes and different limitations and capabilities from both sides. And the more we do here to educate and advance, the the more, let's say, coherent and whole can be that synergy of human and AI. And the AI is clearly not designed here to replace the human coach, but to complement. And only if we get this really well aligned, this hybrid synergy of human and AI, then we can go beyond what human coaching could do today.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

You're describing like a world where if I think about an organization, you've got a whole kind of ecosystem. System there of experiences or considerations, things that we need to be intentional about. And also there, you've talked about the coaching session itself. So being very intentional about that. And I think within all of that, if I could zoom out, it would be about thinking intentionally about how we design, how we introduce AI into or tools, because they're just tools, actually. So how are we thinking about the tools that we have for human development within our organization and how might AI fit with that? And if it is providing more access, let's say an AI platform creates a coaching experience that enables people to do better communication skills, identify their goals, the kind of task-oriented things that AI is very good at, that could play a really important part in your strategy around human development for your organization. Everyone has access to that level of discovery for themselves. So it's like an entry level, if you like, or a concierge into this growth of human development for your whole organization. But then in some of those experiences, you could be having signals that help you understand actually these people or this individual at this time is appropriate for coaching because of either the nature of their work is such that it's um perhaps they're operating in a space where it's a new territory for the organization, something they've never done before. So it's a uncharted territory. And in that space, coaching with a human coach can be really valuable to transform and get underneath the surface of what the possibilities are. Have I understood the space you were describing?

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Absolutely. Yeah. It starts with things like a concierge. What is a conscientious? I like that you use the word because we use it as well. It's a mix of a trainer that possesses certain knowledge or knows certain processes, for example, and that can also a little element of coaching can be is in your example a role play, just to take what we just learned, maybe in that human-led training or in even that AI-led training into a role play. But it can also be wait, you had that training a while ago. I totally understand you no longer have this information. Let me show you again where to find it, or let me help you recap it. And so and how does this apply now to your job? How could this be most useful for you? And then the coaching question. And these consciers are super helpful, especially when we want to assess where is the employee, where is the coachy, and then be helpful in the moment with a mix of is there a knowledge gap that we need to fill, or do we need to point them to something? And if not, okay, then let's go with a powerful coaching question. Let's create more apps, let's maybe improve the question. Where in the organization or in the everyday work life of the employee do we maybe have moments where we know a little coaching support could be helpful when making certain decisions, when navigating certain tools? And this is why, for example, all the big tech players are now building little kind of AI coaches or concierge into their platform. So, you know, on one side, they're being very helpful uh agents to give you the solution. Some go beyond and also say, hey, if you're looking into that data point, maybe you're also interested in this. And some go even further beyond and ask, hey, why do you want to use this data point? Ah, that's what you want to do. Then I would challenge you that this data point is maybe not as impactful as another one. Could you think of something? And then suddenly we're having a coaching conversation. So, and there are processes in every company, like onboarding, where it would probably make sense here and there to get a coaching question, besides consuming all that training content, you know, digesting all that information about their culture, meeting all those people, just to sit for a moment, have a tool that says, How was your day? Is this kind of meeting what you expected? What is special about what you learned so far? What is new? What did you not expect? You know, what changes your view on the industry, on the company, and so forth, and you know, unpack all of that. And we as coaches are used to offer this support, but we're not there when it's needed. Yeah, we're very rarely there in about maybe 0.0001% of the times of a few employees. So, with that, this is where these tools become so helpful. And this is where Coach Board's vision is we want to create this infrastructure that is not just producing an AI coach that sits somewhere and can be used. No, we want to create both AI coaches that are available to be used reactively, but also we want to create tools that are embedded deep into the workflows, like onboarding, like setting your next goal for the quarter, for the team meeting, even for your conversation with the manager. And then let's think about what is the workflow like? Where is the person? Are they on the shop floor? Are they sitting at their desk? Are they in their home office? Are they stressed? What would they need now? Would they need a rather quick solutioning, laser coaching session, or do they have time to sit down 45 minutes, you know, in a restful atmosphere and discover something about their values? And only with this context, and this is why I like that you talked earlier about also um the importance of personalization and context, only with this context engineering we can create environments that are both safe and helpful for the AI to have an impact.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

I think you're describing there that it's it's I'm seeing like the blurring of several what would be, I guess, traditional domains within an organization. You've got learning and development training, uh, onboarding, human resources type things. So it's moving away from coaching, actually. It's it's more of a personal assistant within your work context, say if we're talking about it from an organization point of view. And so when I think about that, do you I mean, do you see the blurring of boundaries already?

SPEAKER_00 27:48

So to make my point really strong, A, I believe we we no longer need training. Why is that? Of course, we still need training, but training without coaching is just not helpful because the training transfer is so low that only maxed with the learning on the job in the moment, with the context, with your colleagues, with a coach, or with the AI coach, it becomes really this massive productivity explosion that employers want to see. And then also the other point that I want to make, the org chart is dead. What does what do I mean with that? Of course, we still have an org chart of the people, but the way we know this traditional org chart is no more. Now every person in that org chart is potentially having various layers of agents behind them, meaning one person is now maybe handling one or five agents. Or maybe they're handling a hundred agents who then handle a thousand agents or even more. And at the same time, some of those persons will no longer be humans on that org chart because even the job that has been handled by a human maybe 10 years ago is now handled by an AI agent. From an organizational perspective, I think these are the big changes, very relevant for HR and L and D, that we need to consider. We need to ask us what is the job to be done? Will it be done by a human or not? And then every human that we're deploying, what agents can we help them with? And some will be more task-oriented, as we discussed before, and some will be more coach-oriented. But it will end up in this personal concierge, personal assistance, where sometimes we need more coaching, sometimes more solutioning, sometimes more kind of technicalities or more coding, whatever it is. And it's about the tool's context and ability to pull from different sources information, like context libraries, where you know maybe uh technical uh knowledge is stored from the memory of the tool where we know there are certain personal behavior tendencies of this person or something that is very specific to this part of the organization. And by recalling this information in the right moment, we're creating super powerful productivity hacks and hopefully at the same time also very happy and content uh employees that that feel empowered and enabled to have you know proper well-being while being productive.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

I guess it might be a bit controversial now, but I see that productivity was never really a measure that we should have been using for humans. Productivity, I think, is the space of AI. It's task-oriented, it's repetitive, it's it's doing processes, etc. All those things are about productivity or about factory. It's tasks that could be put in a playbook and could be administered. And I think that's the space for AI. So perhaps productivity now becomes the measure of the KPI for AI. And what that then leaves is how do we differentiate the humans and how do we elevate them within the context of our organization? What is the space that only human presence, discernment, dignity, all of those things, where where does that matter in our organization? And what are the measures? The measures are probably about outcomes and values for the humans, productivity for the AI. I agree with you in terms of org charts. Already we have machines on our org charts. And I think of it a bit like um in the future, the humans may have many different AI tools or solutions that they're responsible for, a bit like air traffic control. So the humans are going to be the controllers in the air tower, and all of the AIs are all of the aircraft, if you like, that uh that they are overseeing and uh helping to keep safe and ethical and responsible, etc.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Very beautiful. And I think this is the big task for you know, not only coaching providers and coaching organizations, but obviously everything from companies to regulators to think about how do we create the standards, how do we create the frameworks that allow you know, moving on as humanity and think about productivity from a different perspective. Be okay that most jobs should be taken or handled by an AI and not by a human. Um, because only with this realization we can then really ask ourselves again, what are we capable of? This is this is really exciting, and this is where with the custom metrics that I talked about earlier, I want to see what are the new leading ways for companies to measure human growth or or people development. And this is going to be exciting. Right now, we're still very much in the in the soft skill uh space. Um, and uh I think that that works well. Um, but I'm I'm very curious to see now that we are measuring also consciousness on machines, on AI. Are we also moving further ahead in in measuring um the human consciousness in in the workplace and then seeing how does how does coaching, human-led, AI-led, hybrid, um impact that and uh celebrate this together with our kind of uh uh chief executives and our HRs versus just the productivity gains.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

I also think AI taking our jobs. I I think that it's not going to take our jobs, but it is different, it's changing them. Um with AI, we're now redesigning what the jobs are and re and actually new ones will emerge, new industries uh or new professions will emerge. It is a bit like uh I described there, if if we have an air traffic control kind of idea, how do we design that human job uh that oversees a thousand agents, say, something like that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

100%. I think a lot will be reshaped, and um, I'm always referring back to previous technotechnological breakthroughs, right? There was always change in the structure of the labor market and the type of roles and the type of training that was needed, and we're gonna see another renaissance now where we're going through to whatever is that next level. And I'm super excited about seeing um someone made earlier today in in another meeting analogy that when you build a house, bricks have a certain size and the standard size, and it's basically designed for a human to carry because human workers carry billions of these bricks over the past uh years and decades. And now that robots will likely carry those, oh, these bricks are becoming bigger, and we're likely going to be able to build houses a little different because it's just more handy. But yeah, but in the process of redesigning these bricks, building the machines that carry them, do the maintenance for them, provide the energy for this, um, you know, deal with all the other challenges that come from the energy provision. There are so many new challenges that we as humans are now equipped to tackle that the robots couldn't yet tackle and solve. And with that, yeah, we're moving ahead, we're moving further, and um it's going to be very exciting to see what humans of the present and the future will be capable of solving.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Perfect. I'm looking forward to looking forward with you. So thank you so much for your time today, Levin. Uh, it's been fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Thank you, Susan, and thank you for running the humane podcast. It's uh it's a it's a great contribution and very enriching. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Thank you.