The Black Hat Files
The Black Hat Files takes you inside the world of cybersecurity through conversations with the people shaping it.
From global CISOs and security researchers to policymakers and technology leaders, each episode breaks down real challenges, emerging threats and the decisions driving security at scale.
The Black Hat Files
The Mental Health File: Securing an Industry Built on Trust
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In this episode of The Black Hat Files, Jameeka Green Aaron, CISO at Headspace, speaks with host Phillip Wylie about mental health, burnout and leadership in cybersecurity.
The conversation covers why cybersecurity is ultimately about protecting people, how burnout affects security professionals, and what leaders can do to build stronger teams through trust, transparency and honest feedback.
Jameeka also shares her perspective on employee retention, culture, generational change, AI privacy and the evolving role of CISOs as security becomes more global, more complex and more human.
Mental health is a space about protecting people, the hearts and minds of people. And so, cybersecurity professionals, at the heart of our job, we are here to protect people. Right? Most of what people say about what we're doing is that we are protecting technology, but what we're really doing is protecting people. And mental health is the same way. CISOs have a very hard job. And burnout is real in our community. And I think that while we're all ambitious and we're all very focused on protecting people, the first person that we need to protect is ourselves.
SPEAKER_00You're listening to the Black Hat Files, your backstage pass to cybersecurity's global stage. I'm your host, Philip Wiley. Every month we bring you an exclusive interview recorded live at Black Hat MEA. From the heart of the industry, these stories are worth telling. Let's crack open today's file cybersecurity in the mental health tech space. Our guest is Jamika Green Aaron, CISO at Headspace. Welcome to the show, Jamika.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for having me. This is so fantastic to talk about something that's so close to my heart.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's uh it's something that's much needed. We overlook too much because you know, cybersecurity, there's the long hours, and it's just incredible that the stress we put ourselves through, and we definitely need to keep mental health and in mind.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. You know, it's it's interesting because I think about the work that I'm doing now. I think about it in a in a multitude of different ways. Cybersecurity professionals are at the heart of our job, we are here to protect people, right? Most of what people say about what we're doing is that we are protecting technology, but what we're really doing is protecting people. And mental health is the same way. Um, mental health is a space about protecting people, the hearts and minds of people. And so it was easy for me to find that thread and find that commonality um in between the two jobs.
SPEAKER_00And just the connection there with security. People are overworked and burned out, they're they're gonna miss things.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. You know, um I burned out in my previous role. It was I I had a phenomenal time at Okta and Off Zero. And I'll tell you, I contributed to it. Um it was totally me. Um, but I burned out. I was traveling all the time. I was always excited to meet with customers. It was a tremendous amount of energy expanded. But at the end of three years, I was really like, I think I'm going to call hang up my hat for a year or so. I'm gonna travel and take some downtime. And I knew that I needed it. What I didn't realize is I thought I was physically um tired, but I was mentally exhausted. Um, when you're giving so much of yourself to your work, to your family, um, to all the competing priorities that we have, you don't realize what a toll that takes on you. And the mental health actually does take a toll on your physical health. I think it happens first and we kind of brush it off until we have high blood pressure, until we have a heart problem, but it starts really with our mental health. And so I when Headspace called me up, I said, I don't think the mental health company is gonna drive me crazy. And I really said that. Um, and it has been such a gift.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would kind of hope with them being in a mental health space that that would be a priority with the employees.
SPEAKER_01We do, we meditate every morning at 10 a.m. It's so much fun. I I'm a fan of so many of our meditation instructors, but I remember the first day that I saw Dora at work in the office, and I was like, oh my God, it's Dora, it's the voice, you know. Um and she is her voice is as soothing and calm in person as it is um on online. But I'll tell you my favorite thing um about Headspace is our sleep, our sleep stories. We have the best sleep stories. Can I tell you about any of them? No, I cannot because I fall asleep. Um but sleep mountain is one of my favorite, but I think that these are things that I I had a headspace subscription. Did I use it? No, I didn't. Um, and I think that these are things that they're they're easy to do. Um, but I think developing a practice of mindfulness and meditation is important. I think the other thing that I didn't realize was important to me, and I'm a veteran also. And I think when I joined Headspace, one of the things that was really important to me is making mental health accessible to veterans. Um, when I was in the Navy, I spent nine years in the Navy, and when I was in the Navy, and it's still this way, you know, mental health was very taboo. Um, the mental health building was a separate building, and nobody wanted to walk through those doors. You know, you didn't want all of your shipmates to know that you needed to talk to somebody, um, that you needed some support, much needed support, necessary support, but you know, too embarrassed to ask for that support. And so Edspace offers therapy over Zoom in the privacy of your home. Wherever you are, you can uh reach a therapist. And I think that that is um going to change the game for mental health. I'm really excited about how um access to therapy and coaching has really changed our ability to access those services and also to do so in the privacy of our homes or whatever space we're in.
SPEAKER_00Some people are really introverted and have a hard time being in person, so it's kind of nice to be able to do it from a location that's more comfortable for them.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. I think that that's probably one of the keys to success for Headspace is just making mental health accessible to the world. It's not something that is just our tagline, it's something that we really believe in. Um but also I think the other thing that has helped me is that I talk about mental health so much with my family and with my friends, and it doesn't feel taboo anymore. Um it's just something that you talk about it the same way you would talk about joining a new gym. We have no issue saying, hey, what gym do you go to? Where do you do Pilates at? Do we talk about the physical health? We we recommend doctors to one another. And now I have a bunch of therapist friends that I'm like, hey, this person's great. This person's a child psychologist. And so I think that, you know, we really need to try to remove the stigma. And it's especially important for CISOs and for folks in the cybersecurity community because I think we love a good stigma. We really do. Uh we'll put a name on something. I mean, think about it zero trust, digital transformation. We love a good stigma. We love to put a name around something, but I think that with mental health, we need to we need to put our stamp on it as well. CISOs have a very hard job. Um, and burnout is real in our community. And I think that while we're all ambitious and we're all very focused on protecting people, the first person that we need to protect is ourselves.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm sure that was how was that transition coming out of the military to be able to adopt mental health and be okay with it? Because I know in the military you gotta, you know, suck it up, you gotta be tough.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And to be able to adopt that, how was that was that difficult?
SPEAKER_01I don't think I adopted it right away. I think it it's taken years. Um I think when I got out of the military, and I'm I'm a conflict veteran, and so when I got out of the military, I I spent nine years in the Navy and I was still very young. I was, well, in the military, I was middle-aged. When I got to Lockheed Martin, I realized that 27 is not middle-aged, right? It's it's you're still a really young person. Um, and so I think that my what I thought was being resilient. I thought that I was resilient. Um, but I think it's certainly in the 20 years since it's taken a significant toll on my my resilience, wasn't in fact resilience. I think I have some grit and I think that um I'm someone who just works hard. But when you get to your 40s, uh your body doesn't hold up as well to some of the things that you do to it. And so I think it took it was a journey for me as well, a difficult journey to realize that, hey, I need to take care of my mental health. Um, and so I didn't do it right away. I would say probably maybe 10 years after I got out of the military, I started to see a therapist. It was really important. And and I think I started to see a therapist because I was starting to experience some of that fatigue and burnout from work, but I didn't know what it was. But being a high achieving person, um, I have anxiety. And so these are things that have helped me become a CISO. These are so I kind of felt like they were gifts. Um, I have a lot of grit. And so I thought, well, you know, this is just who I am. But you can also be a high achieving person and not have anxiety and and really learn how to manage that. And I think that, you know, knowing that I have anxiety and knowing that I've been diagnosed with it is a different, you you manage it differently. Um and I think that's where the mental health, physical health things come into play because ultimately my anxiety drives some of my physical ailments as well. And so I think that I thought I was good at it, I was horrible at it. And most people think that they're good at it. But it really manifests itself in different ways, and that's why it's so important that you go and seek the kind of support. Um, Headspace is everything from coaching to do coaching um all the way up to clinical levels of therapy. But we also have an AI chatbot called Ebb that navigates you through the ebbs and flows of life. So if you don't think that you want to talk to us and maybe you just want to peek in and see what's going on, you can pop in and chat with Eb and it helps recommend content for you and it can be your safe space to talk. So I think that we're we're looking at it in a multitude of different ways in that just talk to someone or something now because we have AI, um, but get it out, have a conversation, understand, um, have clarity on on where you are with your mental health. Um, and in many cases, most people just need someone to talk to.
SPEAKER_00So, as a high performance professional, how do you kind of balance that mental health and and being high performance? Because you mentioned having grit. I mean, I'm sure you, you know, your military helped you build that work ethic to not give up and stuff. So, how do you kind of balance being a high performer with being uh in good mental health and in low stress?
SPEAKER_01I think that one of the most important things is that um I had to learn that not everything and begins and ends with me. Um, while it's important to me to do a good job, it's okay if you go to sleep at night. It's okay if when you wake up in the morning, your slack is not the first thing that you check. A day with me is I'll wake up in the morning and I will meditate just five minutes. Um I also do our company meditation. So we have a 10 o'clock meditation every morning, um, Pacific time, and I also I don't do them every day, but I do do, I do do them. I think the other thing is that, you know, I recognize that my to-do list is always running. Um, and so I'm not so hard on myself about the things that don't get done. I give myself a tremendous amount of grace now that I didn't give myself before. Um, I think that the other thing that you learn as you become a more seasoned cybersecurity professional is that things happen. And it's not an if. It's it's it's not a if, it's a win. Um something's going to happen. And I think the more senior you become in this industry, the way that you handle what happens, because you just get smoother at it. Um and so you're not so stressed out about it. Those incidents don't unravel you anymore. So I think that's important. Really learning um how to create balance for myself in this industry. Hiring's important. Um, and so having people that you can trust at work and outside of work. I think I have a tribe of people who are incredibly supportive to me that are helpful. My husband being probably the biggest supporter because he really gets to see the intricacies of the work that I do. And so I think that that's helpful. But I think it's I have a more holistic approach. I will stop what I'm doing and take a walk in the middle of the day outside. Um, that's not something that I ever would have done before. I think I picked that up from Nike. Nike was a place where we did working, walking meetings outside, um, beautiful trails in Oregon. And so um, it was just a part of our culture. One that I picked up and then kind of dropped and then said, you know what, that was a good thing to do. You can put your headphones on, you can take meetings outside too. But really, taking 15 minutes to go walk around the block, it's not, nothing's gonna happen during that time. And so I think it's just a very different approach. Um, one that probably feels touchy-feely to people, but I think it's necessary.
SPEAKER_00So, how have you seen like employees' performance? Because I know you have people coming new and they got access to all this mental health and the meditation. How have you seen that transform your employees?
SPEAKER_01I'll tell you something. I was stunned when we did our Glint survey at Headspace. My team has the highest morale in the whole company.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01The InfoSec team. Um, generally it's the opposite. We're normally somewhere in the bottom quartile, but um, I think that really speaks to the culture of Headspace, a lived culture. Um, to see an InfoSec, and I lead InfoSec IT and cloud and privacy. And so I think it really speaks to um the ethos of the company. We we just don't stress our employees out in that way. And I and I think that it's important to many companies have an ethos that they don't apply to their own employees. Headspace isn't like that. We have an ethos that applies to our employees. We're very thoughtful about how we treat our employees. In addition to that, you know, our customers are healthcare companies, they're they're insurance companies, they're they're providers. And I think that it's important to us that our employees when interacting, that they that there's an authenticity in what we do. And so I think they're just treated really well. Um, lots of conversations, lots of open conversations, lots of, it doesn't feel also taboo to like you don't have to um, there's no stigma around taking a mental health day at Headspace. We go, oh, all right, we'll enjoy. You know, it's not it's not a thing. And I think that that is the thing that's that's critical for us as leaders. There are things that will help create longevity that will help um with attrition, that will create better retention, and they're small things, they're human things, they're people things. And I think that we don't always do the best job at understanding what they though they are, but I think Headspace does understand that because of, well, we've got therapists that work at the company, right? We've got a chief clinical officer who's phenomenal. And I think that's the other part. When your colleagues are doctors and they are therapists, um, I think there's just this, I wouldn't say, I would say I'm probably a whole lot more transparent um when talking to them about the things that are that are hard as they relate to cybersecurity, because I know that there's this level of empathy and compassion that they have that they're trained to have, but I think it's authentic as well. And so the hard things just are a lot easier.
SPEAKER_00So the way this is kind of uh your experience there with the mental health working there, how's that kind of transformed how you uh work with your employees? Is it made it less stressful, easier to make it?
SPEAKER_01I think it's made it less stressful, but I think more than anything, it's made um me more authentic as a leader. And I think when you are an authentic version of yourself, you are a better version of yourself. And I think that my employees can see that and they can feel that. And so, you know, there are days when I will be in a meeting and I'll say, I'm really tired today. Um, and I just want to let you guys know because maybe I'm a little snappy or you know, maybe I'm a little short. That's not something that I probably would have done before. I I I would have maybe said something about what was going on, but I wouldn't have just been honest and been like, I didn't sleep well. Um, but that's not a thing at Headspace. Not sleeping well is like, well, we have sleep therapy, you know what I mean? And so, you know, but I say those kinds of things now. I think my humanity shines through um in a very different way. And I think the employees can see it and understand it, and it allows them to do the same.
SPEAKER_00That's good because when you kind of humanize your manager, see them as a human, it's easier to deal with instead of you know fearing your manager or when your manager is like, I am absolutely over the coals because of daylight savings time, which is my current issue.
SPEAKER_01Um, you know, I'm like, oh gosh, this daylight savings time, but it's something that I vocalize, right? Um as a as a very senior leader, we don't always vocalize the parts of us that are human. We may talk about our kids or we may talk about our pets, or but we don't say things about ourselves um that are are true um all the time. And I don't think everything is appropriate, but if you're tired, you're tired. If you didn't sleep well, you didn't sleep well. That's something that you can share.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, in those cases, it's better to share that you didn't sleep well, you're tired, opposed to just someone just think you're just not doing a good job, or the employees think you aren't paying attention to them, or that they've prepared a presentation for you and you're kind of zoned out.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's or even to that point, I would say, I'm gonna reschedule. You know, I I'm not feeling that great today. I and I want to give your presentation the time and attention that it deserves. That is something that is very easy to do now. Um, and I think that I'll always carry this with me because I think it's important. And I think it's important that we have the ability to be honest about what our challenges are.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's good. And one of the things I can kind of see is kind of generationally, it seems like the younger generation are adopting that more.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And one of the things I've seen too is the older generation is not as accepting of that because they you should be tough. You don't be a snowflake or whatever.
SPEAKER_01And so it's I think it's absolutely generational. Um, and I sit right in the middle of of two generations, and um, I think my generation got some of it, but my generation is the generation that was raised by the boomers. And so we also feel like we should be tough um because that's the generation that we grew up with. Um but then I have the millennials, which I'm also in that generation, um, whom are like, yeah, but what about me? And I think that that there is space for all of those things. I think that we can still learn. Um, you can still be tough. I think that's still necessary. And there are a lot of roles that you are still going to have to have some grit. Cybersecurity is one of those jobs that you are going to still have to have some grit. However, you can also be kind to yourself in in the practice of what we're doing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's uh really interesting, the whole generational thing. And one of the things, fortunately, uh I'm a uh Gen Xer, first generation Gen Xer at the very right at the end of boomers. And fortunately, one of the things I've tried to do over the years is listen to people, listen to the younger generations and from teaching at the colleges to teach pen testing and just learning the best thing I did for me professionally is to understand the younger generation because a lot of times us older folks get frustrated because they don't understand them. It's just like listen, try to get to understand them. It's not that hard.
SPEAKER_01And if you don't understand them, they will quit a job without another job. It's it's very different than what I think we were taught. Um, they will absolutely quit today, they will quit on their first day of work. Um, what they prioritize is different. Um, and the experience matters to them. And so we have to understand that that the experience matters, that the experience is important, um, and that they have prioritized. I think they have prioritized mental health probably better than any other generation. Um, and so we have to accept that they are the future. When we are gone, they will all still be here. The workforce will probably look a little different and feel a little bit different, and that's not a bad thing. It's just the evolution.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I kind of like it. I kind of I like the idea of a kinder, gentler society.
SPEAKER_01And I'd be totally okay with that. I think that if we had a kinder, gentler society, I wouldn't be a combat veteran, right? And so I think that's something that, and I'll tell you, I don't think that um this is a generation of young people that we're gonna be able to send off to war. Yeah. I don't think that that's the case. But again, these are our kids. We we raised them to believe in these things. We raised them to be better than us, and now that we see that manifesting them in them as adults, we have to be accepting of what we've done.
SPEAKER_00You know, kind of some of the things you you mentioned kind of made me think you you'd even talked about employee retention. So, what are some things that you do to help with your employee retention beyond the mental health benefits of Edspace?
SPEAKER_01I think that it's important to allow people to be who they are. And I don't say that in the context like work has a culture, every company has a culture. Um, but I don't think that culture fit is the right word. I think that people add to the culture, right? The culture is not a singular thing, it's all of the things that all of the people make it. And so when I think about when new employees come, I always am thinking about the ways in which that they can add to the culture. And there are small things. Like I don't have kids, but I do have a cat. I am in the cat group at Headspace, chatting away and posting pictures of my cat. And I think that initially they probably thought it was pretty strange, like, oh, there's a because you know, they call us the execs and we get the quotation marks. Um, but then here I am just being very human and you know, chatting about my cat. And, you know, and I think that that is helpful. When you see your boss's boss's boss uh post a picture of their cat wearing a sweater, um, it it does something. It also is a conversation point. So that kind of lends itself to when I'm doing my one-on-ones. People will talk to me about things other than work, and that's what I hope happens. Um, we can talk about work until we're blue in the face, but there are other things, there are other qualities that people have that are really, really important to them. Um, and getting to know my my team members is important to me. And and sometimes, and I still have team members who don't talk to me very much, and I'm like, I'm scary, so I understand that. But even that, right, I understand like they're like, she is woof, it's a lot going on there. And I get that too. But there are employees who see all of the other things that I'm doing and they talk to me about those things, and that is important to me too. And I think that that setting that standard for myself and then also my leaders, I have a very dynamic and diverse group of leaders. Um, and it's critically important to me that in me being authentic, that they understand that they should be as well. We are all vastly different, but we are all welcome and we are all accepted. And so I think that that is a part of what it's it starts at the top. That is absolutely true. How you show up for your team, um how you show up as a leader matters tremendously. I am also really, really tough. I am a really, really tough person to work for. I recognize that. I want you to do your job. Um, one of the things that I get asked often is, well, why do you like certain employees? And I was like, I don't really like any of you. You're my colleagues. I was like, but what I do like is people who do their job. Um, I put that at the forefront that, you know, performance, um, the way that you do your work is important to me. And not even, I want to, I don't want to say performance, um, but I think that being good at your job, mastering what you do, um, it makes me incredibly proud to watch my leaders master what they do. I am very transparent about teaching them what I know. I do not hold knowledge to myself. If there's something that I know and I think they need to know it, I tell them. Um I tell them in groups, I tell them in one on ones. Um, I'm a feedback person, but my feedback is every day. Um, it's not a let's wait till you're one on one. I'm on Slack. I text them. I give feedback continuously because I think it's important to have the kinds of relationships where you can be honest with people, and that doesn't start with the negative feedback. It doesn't start with your performance review. It starts with the first day that you start there and the kind of relationship that you build. And so I think that that has allowed me to have pretty, pretty good, you know, retention. But also I will go back and get people from other companies that to come and work for me. And to me, it is one of the things that I am most proud of that people like working with me. That the journey is such that they would do it again. Yeah. Because this is a hard space to recruit in. It's hard to get talent and retain talent and cybersecurity. So I think that, and it's just fun. I I like to have fun. I think that yes, it's work. It's not called recess, as my dad would say. He's like, you're not there for recess. It's work. And I say that at work too. I'm like, you guys, this is not a volunteer job. We pay you to be here. This isn't a recess. This isn't, but at the same time, we can still have a lot of fun in the course of doing the work that we do. And so those are the things that are important. The other thing is that I am very much, I drive a hard line about how you treat people. There are not a lot of reasons that people have been fired by me. But if you treat someone poorly, I will fire you in a heartbeat. That is the number one thing that I think my leaders know about me is that I am paying attention to how you treat the people that work for you. And if I see any inkling of what I think is maltreatment or ill treatment, you're out of here. Not only that, and I've not had to do it very often, maybe once or twice in almost 30 years, but I think that people know she'll do it and she'll do it without a blink of an eye. I think that's also important. So there are things that are like the soft skill things, but there are things about um being in business that just must be so. I think that if we held those standards more often, we wouldn't find ourselves in some of the trouble that we find ourselves in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's awesome that you get the balance between between the toughness and understanding of the people. My wife's the same type of manager that uh, you know, her employees, she makes sure to do the work. And one of the things that's she is a high performer too. And one of the things about high performers, they kind of expect people to do their work. Absolutely. It's not exactly like they expect them to kill themselves or or or do something that they're gonna do.
SPEAKER_01Do the job we hired you to do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I think that's where the generational challenges come in as well. I I said a couple of weeks ago, I was like, don't let the TikTok work advice get you fired. Um because I'm like, well, y'all, they're influencers, right? Um, some of them are experts, but many of them are not experts. They're they don't even work in HR. They're influencers. And so I'm like, be thoughtful about where you get advice from because some of it is really bad advice and you're gonna get fired.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, being viral doesn't mean it's good. It does not mean it's good.
SPEAKER_01I'm like, don't do that. Do not do that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's pretty, pretty challenging times. So uh what was your presentation on in Blackout?
SPEAKER_01So today I was uh on the uh the executive stage talking about privacy and AI. Um and I think there were some good, good cliff notes from it. But one of the things that really stuck with me was uh the expectation of privacy in the AI space is going to change. We talked about data privacy, which is what we currently um do, right? And the example that um was given was my example, but I told him I'm stealing his example because I thought it was great, um, was that data privacy is like DLP. We we know we have data loss prevention systems. They are pretty much scanning everything that you do on your work laptop in and out of house all day long. And you and you know that it's a machine that's doing it. And although we might be slightly annoyed, we don't really care. AI is really moving us into the space of knowledge privacy, and that's a different space because AI does have essentially a stream of consciousness and it can judge you. Um, in many cases, we're okay with DLP because it doesn't judge us, it makes decisions based on machine learning, it makes decisions based on uh workflows that we've put in place that we've built in and said this is the company's crown jewels, and this data can't leave. AI didn't really work like that. AI is like, I know it's the company's crown jewels, and I know you tried to steal it, but maybe you're a bad person because of it, right? It's it's it's a different way of handling data. Um, and it's a different way of looking at privacy. AI is meant to essentially mimic humans, and humans will judge you, and we will judge you harshly. And so I think that when we think about knowledge privacy and AI, it's a different space. And we really have to look at what we're doing from a morality perspective at this point. Um, and as a CISO, that's a different kind of job, right? We are CIA triad people, confidentiality, integrity, availability. Well, AI is blowing that out of the water. And so I think that um our conversation was riveting around what are we gonna do? We don't have the answers yet. And I think that that's you know, something that for a CISO is a really hard thing. We're we're kind of zero-sum people. We want an answer. Um, and we don't have that answer yet. And so, and I think the other thing that we have to do is there's some risk that we have to accept to allow innovation to happen. And so we talked a little bit about that as well.
SPEAKER_00Very cool. It's just really interesting, just the whole theme and just talking to interviewing some of the other speakers. It's really cool to interesting to think about how security has evolved where it was just data at one time. Now you have AI, as you mentioned, of course, there's data involved with it, but the processing of that, but also content. So we had someone in here from Peloton. So you can just imagine some of those devices, the content, training, yeah. The training content, they have this intellectual property, you know, that the videos don't get stolen. You know, the content you have like on your stories, right? Essentially, yeah. So it has just gotten so complex back when I started in cybersecurity in 2004. Man, it was so much easier back then. It's just amazing. It was usernames and passwords, right?
SPEAKER_01That was the that was the bulk of what we were trying to. I mean, there were other things, right? But it was it was a vastly different world.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, our security team back then, I worked for a mortgage company, and we had like four or five of us that handled firewall, uh, intrusion detection systems, vulnerability scanning.
SPEAKER_01The cloud wasn't here yet, everything was on-prem.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then you had the team that was setting up user accounts, and it was all manual because you didn't have this stuff that's a good idea. Oh no, no, no identity and access management, right? There that wasn't so it was manual identity access management. So it's amazing how it's changed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I, you know, my my last role, I was an identity C as at Off Zero, and you know, it it's probably the funnest job I ever had, but it was a hard job to do um because we're dealing with human nature, right? There's this idea that we we need to protect people, um, but we also need them to do it in a as frictionless way as possible. There are all these things, these things that need to happen um in order for us to make that to make that space work. And I think that, you know, it it really reminded me how far the industry has come in the last couple of years. Uh I would say the last 10 years, yes, um, how far the industry has come because we don't, the space that we work in now doesn't have any boundaries. Um we worked within the right, we were on-prem, it was, you know, smaller teams, it was the internet was different, and now we are boundaryless. Um, we work anywhere, everywhere, all the time. Um, and our work as CISOs has changed because now we are global. Um, we're glow many of us are global CISOs, and there aren't boundaries to what we're trying to protect.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's um amazing how it's evolved. So that's a wrap. A big thank you to Jamika for joining me today. Uh, let's close this file chapter until the next one. This is Philip Wiley signing off.