Episode 6. ⁠20 Pages a Day: Inside London's Vertical Drama Boom

What does it take to direct a feature film's worth of pages in a single day?

Thalia Kent-Egan would know. As one of London's earliest directors in the vertical drama space, she's been shooting at breakneck speeds since the format began booming in the city — where productions have tripled since January.

In this episode, Thalia takes us inside the chaotic, bonding, sometimes brutal world of vertical production. We talk about the technical adjustments — why mid-shots beat close-ups, how data shapes every creative decision, and the craft of shooting two cameras with no time for second takes. She also speaks candidly about the harder realities: industry instability, the sexism in director hiring, and how she protects her own creative voice while taking on client work that doesn't always reflect it.

As an intimacy coordinator turned director, Thalia brings a rare dual perspective — one focused as much on actor care as on craft. She shares why building lasting relationships with cast and crew matters even more in a format this fast, and how she stays grounded inside an industry that runs on adrenaline.

Plus: her own short films in development, a moment with Eve Ensler (V), and where she hopes vertical storytelling goes next.

Connect with Thalia Kent-Egan
Website: thaliakentegan.com
Instagram: @thaliakentegan

🌐 PAULINE GRAY STUDIOS
Where storytelling meets strategy.
paulinegraystudios.com | hello@paulinegraystudios.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello everyone. Welcome to the Vertical Reach Podcast. This is where storytelling meets strategy. I'm Pauline Gray, and each week I sit down with the creators, innovators, and voices shaping the world of vertical storytellers. Let's tell stories that connect. So a little bit myself. I have been a script supervisor, director, producer for most of my career. Nice. And about a month ago, six weeks ago, I just got dumped into the vertical world. Yeah. How did that happen? And you know, I was on a script supervisor chat, four or five of them, different chats, and these vertical things were popping up. And I was like, vertical, what? And then I after a couple zooms with my colleagues, I said, I could write these. There's no way in hell I can't write these things. And then that led to some coffee, some lunches, some mixers. And then it became a conference. I don't know if you know about the conference that just occurred in LA, the vertical market. No. And it was the very first um well, first ever vertical market, and a pretty pretty much a who's who or who who's who who will become, you know, in this emerging industry. And I decided that I want to dive head first, having been an award-winning screenwriter, directed a couple little specy things that I want to learn as a director and a writer. And lo and behold, I said, let me meet everyone in the community. And well, I've added to a podcast. Yeah. And you are the star with um my double life billionaire homeless husband. And I said, let me let me reach out to this. So please tell us a bit about yourself and yeah, so Antalia.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Um, I've been working in film for about seven years and in vertical world for about almost a year and a half. So quite early in terms of the London vertical drama space, I'd say. It's I think it's like tripled in London since January in terms of the jobs and the amount of productions they're making. And so I still do my own stuff, which is sort of horror, queer stories, and then my other life is sort of working in the vertical space. Um, so it's, I mean, they're very different doing your creative work and then doing the more sort of client structured, quite demanding shoots. I do really love the vertical stuff because it's really good. It's really, really good for like practice and just quick decision making, really. It's like boot camp for everyone because everyone has to compromise a little bit. So it's like this really intense, really like bonding experience. So yeah, that's really where I come from. And I'm developing my own projects on the side, and then I direct and produce, and I also do intimacy coordination, which has been really good in the vertical world because there's loads more intimacy coordination jobs because there's always sex in every single vertical. So that's been really nice.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Yeah. Amazing. So comparing to your traditional work, aside from the run and gun pace of it, what have you found the biggest adjustments to be from traditional cinema to the vertical world?

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Yeah. I mean, I think that it's different on every single stage. I think the biggest thing is being a director for hire is so different in the vertical space because you're the clients can be quite demanding. The the like specific shots they want can be really demanding and they can be quite overbearing sometimes. Um, but at the same time, you're sort of troubleshooting all the time, non-stop. Whereas when you're doing your own project, it's sort of a bit more under your control. Whereas this is like a crazy chaotic circus, basically. You're shooting like sometimes. I did one shoot where I was shooting 20 pages a day, which is just like insanity. And shooting with two cameras, there's a bit to learn, definitely, with blocking and cross coverage. Yeah, yeah, big time. But I have actually also shot a vertical with a really great company called Seastar, and they're a Turkish hump in. They they actually just use one camera, and it's a bit more sort of stylized and bit more, a bit richer, I think. Um, so yeah, um, I think there are a lot of different things that are different. Definitely the storylines, because it's very much every single episode ends on a cliffhanger, which obviously is like a way of approaching storytelling. Um really like amping up the drama and the sex and the violence. It's very sort of like in your face and dynamic and like nail-biting, I'd say, compared to like quiet storytelling.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Thank you. One thing I've noticed, I'm I'm learning, is that sort of the mindset of the producing part is shifting in the sense that most of history in film has been artist driven. Yeah. Yeah. The artist, you and I artists would say, I want to tell a story about love uh a couple who fall in love under an arbitrary. And that's working as a production company.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Whereas what I'm observing now is that we are working as data companies, as tech companies. A hundred percent. Could you touch on that a little bit? The the production versus tech?

SPEAKER_01 5:55

I mean, I think even things as simple as like coverage and shot design is really based on data. It's not based on what I personally or the DOP thinks is the nicest shot. It's based on if we shoot above the waist, mid-shots, those are the ones that people stay on for longer because they see more people, they see the two bodies in the space rather than getting a close-up of a face, which for me would be a more instinctual thing to do for a really dramatic scene, like a super close-up. So it's really thinking about filmmaking in terms of you no longer have this big screen, you have this tiny space that's the phone, and it's how can you make something that's really dynamic and really nail-biting and gripping and all these things, but in like shrunk down three inches. Yeah, literally. It's just like such a completely different way to approach things. And it's just it's also the storylines, the ones that do really well are usually things like, well, I mean, there's sort of like a bingo card of what gets involved in a vertical drama. There's always a woman getting drugged, there's always a secret CEO or a secret billionaire, there's sometimes they do like vampire ones or werewolf ones. It's very much like quite limited at the moment in terms of the pool that you draw from, because they they're going for like most effective audience sort of hits rather than like trying to do something slightly different that might be a bit more unusual that won't hit every single like main main main audience, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

That makes perfect sense, yeah. So let's talk about to that point of having that landscape not even landscape, well the vertical, not the landscape, the vertical. Yeah. What are some hacks as a director you have kind of distilled in in the past year and a half or so of like just from like framing tips or tricks or you know, what have you learned on the fly as you go step by step with your DOP? And do you use the same DOP and do you select your DOP or is it someone that you you're paired with?

SPEAKER_01 8:09

And I mean, uh in terms of DOPs, usually you don't I mean it it's kind of a conversation. Quite often you just get hired and then you go with whoever they usually use. I have I've done two projects that I got to work with my DOP and she's amazing. Um, however, we haven't been paid for those two projects. So that's another side of the industry that is really terrible. Um, but aside from that, I mean in terms of directing things that I really try I try and tell act, I always try and tell actors right at the beginning, always be closer to one another than you think because it's such a narrow space. They might feel that they're like two inches from the other person's notes, but you just you just gotta whatever.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

We're doing it three inches, so you gotta take the two, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Shrink it, shrink it. Um the other thing, they love like frontal coverage, so it's quite you have to be really careful when you're covering two people speaking to one another because they really, really want to get see the full face because that does better in terms of for interaction from the audience. Another thing is well, this is more an acting thing, but I always asked actors to when they if they mess up a line, you just pause for a second, no one says anything, and you just hold it for a second, and then you just go straight back in in the exact same emotion because we just don't have time. We really don't have time to do take off to take, which is really demanding for the actors, but it's it's quite good practice. So you're resetting in real time. Yeah, pacing you're in a reset, okay. You just gotta keep on going. It's it's a real marathon. I mean, it's crazy. I mean, it's great, but it's it is crazy. And then the other thing I'd say is like always getting enough depth in the background, like really trying to make sure that you're shooting like through things, or like you've got a bit of foreground, or you've got like a long corridor behind you with like lots of art department stuff to like make it feel really rich and like make the background as interesting as possible because obviously you're seeing you're now seeing loads of the ceiling and not so much of like the side of a room. So having the depth really helps with that.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

So let's go a little deeper if you if you don't mind. Are you then on like a 40 mil, 50 mil?

SPEAKER_01 10:20

I'm trying to figure out how you would I mean you're on a 30 mil, I mean, it really, really varies. You have lot usually we just use zoom lenses and then we also in and out, like a 10 to 1 or 4 to 1, okay. Exactly, yeah. And then some I mean it depends. If we use Sony FX6 or something like that, we don't have any focus pullers. We just have you just have somebody tapping on the screen, which is again really demanding for the camera operators. But then for other projects I've had it where we've had focus pullers, which has been nice, obviously. Yeah, always going to focus.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Yeah. Okay, so I'm just thinking about as from a directing standpoint now because I I've never shot in a 30 mil. Yeah. I don't think ever. And I'm never I'm trying to envision what a 30 mil, I've done it shot in a 35, I think. I'm trying to go in a 30 mil. So it's kind of like a wider close-up.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Yeah, I'd say sometimes the wides look quite weird. And and that is always really, really difficult when you have you have to cover because usually what happens is you always shoot a wide, and that will sort of they won't care so much about what that looks like, or even the acting or or whatever, the blocking. And then they will basically not use the wide in the editing.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

So why did you establish? Why do we establish? It's just the back of the. Here we are in the mansion. Yeah. And do you do you ever like sweeping shots where you're like or are you just are are you on a lockoff the main time?

SPEAKER_01 11:57

No, you're never really on a lock-off. There's it's either handheld or a slider, or sometimes I've worked with one company that uses a gimbal a lot.

unknown 12:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Which is not very like Yeah.

unknown 12:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

You can be responsive on the gimbal. Yeah. I could see that.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Yeah. But they love the swooping shots. Especially, yeah, the slider shots they really love. But the problem with the slide, obviously, is it takes time to set up.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

So it's a rig, yeah. You're doing 20 pages, you don't really have the time to So you so I'm curious, just as far as like uh the sort of producing part of it now, I've heard it's on average seven-day shoots.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

I would s yeah, I'd say that's probably about right. I mean, uh yeah, it varies between six and nine. And and yeah, if there's a nine-day shoot, you'd have one day off in the between, so it'd be ten days in total. But yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Wow, okay. Slightly pivoting a little bit in the subject matter as a director now, I'm also really curious as an artist, how we as artists maintain our emotional, spiritual wellness. That's a very interesting because I know when I go to produce something, I before I even think about the producing part and the logistics part, I think I gotta start running a mile a day. Yeah. Get in the physical condition to run. If if I run a mile a day for 26 days, I've then run a marathon in the course of a month, and I'm now ready to dive into making a production. So I'm just curious, what are some of your wellness habits to maintain that kind of breakneck speed?

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Yeah. I would say that's a huge point that people haven't really spoken about enough because I must say there have been shoots where I've just been like really ground down. I would say wellness. I mean, you usually need to really decompress after the shoots just because they're so intense. Um and it's good to sort of remember that I mean, this this may sound slightly off, but like it is for a client, it's not your work, if you see what I mean. Obviously, you've produced it. You have to separate yeah, you have to separate the creative side and the the sort of career or I don't I don't really know what it's called, but it like gaining the skills to be a good director, it's really helpful, but it's not, you know, your voice. I think that's important, your voice. And I I find it very difficult because it is at the moment, it's a very racist, sexist, homophobic industry, and the lots of the stories they're telling do fulfill those sort of stereotypes. And I feel like I have a very strong voice that's sort of very different from that. That I really, really have to force myself to comportmentalize because I've done it before where I've just felt like torn apart by the end of it because it's just like can't believe I'm like part of this. But then the other side is I always think I would much rather I direct that story and I look after the actors and I make sure that everyone is comfortable and whatever, than some director who's not gonna take those sort of those extra steps, maybe, or that extra care. I'm trying to think why I do to try and I mean it really is about separating and I mean I find great comfort in making connections with the actors. That's always my favourite thing. Really building like lasting relationships with actors who I've worked with who are in similar situations to me. They want to make art, but the vertical world sort of helps pay the bills and is good practice. So I think it's very important to establish those proper relationships in the shoots because they are very bonding and they are sort of quite emotional and chaotic. But if you have one another, it really helps.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Yeah. So then pivoting off of that, you're also an intimacy coordinator in the space. And how much does your intimacy coordination background and skill set kind of fuse with your directing skill set? So you have I mean, how does it elevate your awareness of what the what's being asked of the actors?

SPEAKER_01 16:20

I mean, I think it's a huge part. And I really I got into intimacy coordination because I wanted to I knew that the way I direct is very much like trying to deconstruct the like hierarchy and make it a more communal thing. And obviously it's very difficult when you're under such time pressure. However, I do think it does allow you to empathize with the actors and make sure that even if the situation isn't perfect, it's like the best it possibly could be. And being aware of where they are emotionally, I think there are a lot of directors that are ignorant to that, and either out of the fact they don't care or they're just they're just not aware of it. And it is a shame, especially for the female actors, because sometimes, even by the clients, they're treated so badly and really like dragged around like they're dolls or whatever. So it's really about setting up those boundaries early on and yeah, making sure they feel comfortable and looked after.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Well, I think you might they found a perfect blend with you in terms of the skill set, the technical and the emotional. Yeah, of course. If you can talk me through the um workflow, are you working with a management company that approaches that says you've been called in, or is it, you know, your circle you've accumulated of a network over time? They say Thalia's amazing at these things. Send her the script. You have two or three days to analyze the script. How is the first entry point created? And how do you get to post? And are you involved in post?

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Yeah. So I actually worked full-time for a company that didn't end up paying me in the end for the last two projects. I worked very hard for her, and she ended up not paying me or any of my crew or any of my cast.

unknown 17:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

I know, and the projects came out. Anyway.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

Thank you. Uh in terms of the process, so for her, I worked whatever the projects would, she would find the clients, the clients would um uh she would suggest us for the directors or whatever, and then we would either have pitch or she'd just sort of pick. Um, and then since I've been freelanced, it's much more either you apply for a job that you see on whatever Mandy or whatever other website, um, and then you're usually you usually have to pitch. The pitching can be quite frustrating because they want something really specific. They usually in their mind have what they want already. And I have actually found, I do think there is quite a lot of sexism in terms of the directing side. So I've found that I've applied for jobs through these websites and then done a good pitch and whatever, and then I've found out later that directors who have like no experience doing verticals have done that, have got the job, or like applying for queer stories and then finding out that like a straight white man has got the job again. So sorry, that is that's another side of it. But in terms of the process, it goes from yeah, you you I've got quite a big circle now of people who are making these. So they contact me, I pitch straight to the client, and I do like a lookbook. Um, you do quite a lot of work before you even get hired, and then they'll pick you, and then you have about. Usually it's not much more than I mean, generous amount of time would be two weeks, be more like one. Um, but that's fine. I mean, the prep is always quite fun because it's just breaking down the script and I love all that stuff. And then um and then meeting actors doing one day rehearsal, which is mainly really a uh uh costume fitting and makeup thing, and then you try and rehearse around that and then straight into it. Yeah, it's quite crazy.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Ah, so then you just start shooting and you start at 6 a.m. on Monday and you finish at midnight on Friday, I hear, or midnight on Saturday. Okay. So then post-production, are you editing in real time on the set? Or are you yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

I think that is the way forward that people will be doing it, that they will be editing on set. I mean, it's very helpful if you have a DIT who's also the editor, because then it's just all the footage is dealt with. And then they can start editing. Some do post-production. Some companies are like um hire post-production companies to edit their projects. Edit in-house. The editing is about a month. Wow, okay. It'll take maybe less.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Including music score, including VFX, including special effects, okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

And sound, yeah. Um some companies don't do a sound, like a proper sound edit. Some just get the editor to do it. Obviously, it's better when they get a real sound person to do it. My partner's a sound person and he's sort of decided verticals uh too like demoralizing for him because the sound is okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

Yeah. But I mean some companies do, and it's getting better. Yeah. He was there in the early days, so which was yesterday. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

The early days were were January. Wow, okay. So let me end on a couple closing questions. Where you are right now, project out three months, six months, nine months, if you don't mind. Given the arc of the growth for the industry, it's overall, and where you would like to be at those particular markers. Of course, sliding up and down the scale as you would like, but a year from now, what what do you see for yourself and also for the industry?

SPEAKER_01 21:56

I would say, although it is like booming. I would say, especially in London, it still feels very unstable. Like quite often you'll get booked for a job and then it will get completely cancelled because something to do with the clients or the money or whatever. So I'm hoping that in three months it's more stable and it's more like more planned, because that's the problem that sometimes it's like you've got to find the locations. Like I used to produce for them more. Um, I do the more of the directing now, but the production side is quite crazy, trying to like find mansions that are within budget in a week or whatever. So I'd say in three months, if it could be more stable, that would be good. And then six months, I mean, it the storytelling, if it's starting to get richer. I mean, there are people trying to do that, trying to make more because at some point the cliched storylines will become people will be bored of them. So if the storytelling could change, that would be amazing. Just progress. I mean, it doesn't need to change completely, but it just needs to develop. And then in a year, I mean, be nice if we were shooting verticals that were yeah, more unusual storylines with a bit more, just a bit more notice, really, so we can do a better job. You don't have to pay us for the extra notice. We just need to like be ready. So yeah, I'd say that's sort of the idea. Stability and sort of progression in the stories that we're telling. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Okay. And if you don't mind sharing for your own career where you're at right now, what's your projectory? Like, do you see yourself, you know, pivoting into like branded stories, branded content, narrative films for brands, features, tell uh what like what is your rosy ideal future looking like?

SPEAKER_01 23:56

I mean lots of things. Um, I've I'm finishing two short films at the moment, so they'll be finished by the end of this year. Um so that will be I'll have done sort of five. And then I want to start, yeah, applying for like more branded stuff. Um, yeah, I'd really like to work commercially more. Um, sort of, yeah. The just the other layers of directing I'd like to sort of work in. And then I'm obviously like every single director you'll ever speak to, developing my feature.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Of course, of course.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Yeah. So quite exciting. I got um I contacted, do you know the vagina monologues? Yes, of course. Yeah. I contacted Eve, who's called V now, like two years ago, and then she finally she replied to me, which I couldn't believe. So she's like reading my script at the moment, which was yeah, very flattering. Um, and she like called me up and spoke to me for 15 minutes and I was just weeping. It was really embarrassing. Oh god, all this hard work. I know, I know. I mean, who knows, but yeah, it's just nice to see, you know, there are you know, there are other things that you're doing that are worth following, even if it's so difficult and hard to make money.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Wow, okay. Well, I am so excited for everything that you got coming up down the pike. That's very much I actually lived in London for a couple years. Really? Yeah, I went I went to LSE for for grad school, and I went to Bristol for film school. Wow. Yeah, Bristol School. Yeah, it's it's changed a lot, I hear. But I do plan on connecting back to London soon, maybe doing a South by Southwest London next year. Maybe I'll see you there.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Yeah, 100%. I would love that so much. So nice to have met you.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Well, pleasure's all mine. So, Thalia Kent Egan. Yeah. Thank you for joining us today. And and I will hear you soon. Thank you very much. All right, take care. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Vertical Reach Podcast. If you enjoyed the conversation, make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. If it sparked something for you, please share a 12 storyteller. Until next time, let's tell stories.com.