The Polyvagal Theory and Jesus - Madison Grissom

In this episode of Extending Branches, Dr. Mike Courtney sits down with counselor Madison Grissom to talk about polyvagal theory: how our nervous systems respond to safety, stress, connection, and overwhelm. In simple, practical language, they explore why we may overreact, shut down emotionally, or feel anxious even when nothing obvious seems wrong.

Together, they discuss nervous system states, fight-or-flight, shutdown, glimmers, and the relief that can come from understanding how God designed us. Most importantly, they point back to Jesus as our refuge, our peace, and the One who invites us into safety, connection, and hope.

Extending Branches is a biweekly podcast from Branches, a nonprofit dedicated to helping people recover hope, find healing, and experience growth through Christ-centered mental and emotional care.

Thanks for joining us! You can find us online at branches.org.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

One of my favorite passages of scripture is the 139th Psalm. David's talking about his relationship with God and the fact that God is there in the darkest night and the in the most glorious of sunrises. God's in the middle of all that. In the in the almost the middle of that psalm, he says, I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Isn't that an interesting phrase? That God intentionally, with great design, very carefully created us to work in just a certain way. And there are times I just have to sit back and just admire the fact that God made people the way that He did. The problem is that when body, mind, soul, relationship doesn't work exactly like we think it should, it can be frustrating, it can be confusing, it can create shame, it can create all kinds of disconnect in us. Why do I overreact in certain situations? Why do I shut down emotionally sometimes? Why do I feel anxious when there's really I can't see anything that's really wrong? Why do I struggle to stay calm and so often get upset? And these are just questions I ask my wife, by the way. So what about all that? That God created us a certain way? Well, what if we found out that maybe it's not just you, maybe it's not just an emotional thing, but there's some biology going on, that the that your nervous system is responding a certain way, getting overwhelmed by some of the things that are going on in life. We're going to talk today about something called polyvagal theory. Now, hold on, I know this sounds like science class, but it's just fascinating to understand that God created us and made us in such a way that things can happen in us and to us, sometimes some of the trauma of life, that can cause our nervous system to become dysregulated. There's an awful lot of relief when we recognize that there's something like that going on. The title of this is The Polyvagal Theory and Jesus. It's going to be a fun conversation.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Welcome to Extending Branches, a mental health podcast committed to helping people recover hope, find healing, and experience growth. Extending Branches is a twice-monthly podcast from Branches, a nonprofit dedicated to compassionate mental and emotional health care rooted in Christ-sivic values. Your host is Dr. Mike Courtney, founder of Branches. He is an author, speaker, and customer counselor who leads honest conversations about faith, emotional health, and real life growth. Before we jump in, a quick but important note. This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a replacement for professional counseling. If you're struggling with suicidal thoughts or facing a mental health crisis, please reach out to a licensed professional or seek immediate help in your area. If you want to learn more about branches or explore support options, you can visit branches.org. We're really glad you're here. Welcome to Extending Branches.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

My guest is Madison Grissom. Madison is one of our counselors. She is an associate marriage and family therapist. She oversees our office in Nashville. And she and her husband, Andrew, have just moved to Murfreesboro, so they're part of the traffic problem here in town. And the best news of all, Madison is expecting their first baby. And it's going to be a just a branch's baby. Madison, thanks for being a part of this today.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Thanks for having me. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

I have no idea what a branch's baby means, but it's neither there.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

We'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

It's going to be roaming the halls and a little mascot. We'll all yeah, we'll all take turns, changing diapers, that kind of thing. Perfect. So you're going to have a boy. I need to say that.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Baby boy in August. We're excited. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Madison, you taught us at one of our staff meetings, maybe a year or two ago. You taught us you had just come back from this training on polyvagal theory. And it was fascinating. I remember taking notes about it. I remember being enthused about it. I wanted to have you as a part of our podcast. I never did learn how to spell it, but I I remember that. Let's just start at the very beginning, kind of in plain language. What is polyvagal theory?

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Yeah. Polyvagal theory is a fancy science word for basically just understanding our nervous system and how it functions. We're all born with a nervous system. And it's this really cool thing that I find God created in us to help us connect with other people, but to also help us remain safe and move away from things that make us feel unsafe. And so our nervous system is this thing within us that's always aware of what's going on within our own bodies between us and other people and our environment. And it's on 24-7. And it's something that we don't have a lot of awareness of unless we start to kind of learn the language of it.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

So how so how does that happen? How does it work? How does that help me to know how I experience God or how I am in relationship or even how I see myself? How does the nervous system play a part in all of that?

SPEAKER_01 5:22

For sure. So in our nervous system, we have three main states. If you want to imagine a ladder, that's sometimes an easy way to kind of visualize it. But on this ladder, um, we all have the top state of that ladder, which is called ventral vagal. And that's another fancy word for just safety and connection. So safety and connection is probably what we're experiencing right now, just talking, connecting with other people, feeling safe, knowing there's not any real dangers going on. Um, and this is where we really um want to build our home. But we live in a fallen world, right? And there's evil and there's um toxic relationships, and um we all come from you know areas of brokenness. And so our nervous systems had to learn how to meet our needs. And so we all have um two other states that are more so survival states.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

And so if we're going down that ladder, um, whenever a threat is present, whenever our nervous system, that thing that's surveying the environment, our bodies, us and other people 24-7, whenever it detects that there's danger, it starts to alert our body that we got to be ready for that danger. Right. And so um it gives us all of those stress hormones, the adrenaline, the cortisol, and we enter what's called um our sympathetic state.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

And the sympathetic state of our nervous system is about mobilization. It's about um you you hear the word fight or flight. That's where that lives. Oh, yeah. Um, which can be helpful if we have a threat that we need to be prepared for, um, right? Like if we're in Bible times and we're David and we're trying to spear the lion, we would hope that our sympathetic nervous system would yeah, help us to do those things. Um, but when those threats are not present or when our nervous system is detecting that there's danger and there's not, that's when we can get kind of stuck. Um, and then the bottom state of that ladder is called dorsal vagal, and that's more of shutdown, collapse. Um, it's a slowing down of our nervous system. So when that sympathetic state becomes too much, that's a lot for our bodies to handle, we can't sustain that for long periods of time. We enter what's called um dorsal vagal, which is more of a shutdown state.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

And so um this helps our bodies preserve energy. Like if you're sick or ill, yeah. Um, you can think about like it's hard to get out of bed. It's hard to have the energy or the motivation to do much of anything because we're in that dorsal vagal state where our body is holding on to as much energy as it can to help us heal. And so, but again, we don't want to get stuck there, right? Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

And um that's so from a physical standpoint when trauma occurs, sometimes we'll go into so we we go into shock, yes, where the body is pulling the blood and warmth back into the core to protect the core, it sounds like it's kind of that. The body is kind of getting everything, circling the wagons around what needs really needs to be.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Absolutely. And I think that's what's beautiful about the way God designed us, is he knew there would be trouble, he knew there would be things we would face that are really hard, and he designed our bodies in a way that responds to that, right? Yeah. Um, but again, kind of what you were talking about earlier, when we get stuck in those states or when we don't have a good blueprint for what safety looks like, because the goal is to not just feel safe and calm and zin all the time. That's not that's not realistic. And so we want, if you're imagining that ladder, we want a nervous system that can be resilient and go up and down that ladder depending on what we need for that day. Um and so, yeah, but when we don't have, you know, even if we have the most well-intentioned parents, um, we still may not get that blueprint for safety and connection. Um and we may struggle to know what that feels like. And when we do feel that sense of safety or connection, that ventral vagal state, um if that feels really unfamiliar, it can actually feel dangerous.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Um, because we don't have the map for that.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

One of the things that comes to my mind is that we probably either saw our parents constantly up and down the ladder in in great extremes, or we heard just be calm, don't get upset, you know, keep a level head. And we heard that it we they didn't mean it, but we heard that it's not appropriate to go up and down the ladder. You need to get to the calm state and just stay there all the time. So, yeah, that's hard to take that and then begin to put it into practice in a world that doesn't look that way.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Yeah, and in a world that doesn't necessarily support that, right? We're kind of going against the cultural tide, if you will. And um, I think the goal is to, you know, when we're talking about building awareness of our nervous system and how does that impact like faith and our relationship with God, it's so important that as we raise awareness, we get awareness around the fact that each of those states has a different story. So the same thing could happen, right? Like say um someone bumps into me at the grocery store with their grocery cart. If I'm in a ventral vagal place of knowing I'm safe and that I'm okay, that's not gonna bother me very much. But if I'm in my sympathetic state where I'm already really um maybe hyperactive or overstimulated or anxious, and that happens, then that's gonna shock my nervous system a lot more. If I'm in dorsal vagal, I may have thoughts about, you know, no one ever sees me, right? I can jump there so quickly.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Immediately go to shame and yeah, worthlessness and all that. So uh road rage. Yeah. I I mean, I I never heard of road rage until the last 10 or 15 years, but that is that overhyper response to something probably because of a part of the story of uh someone being in a sympathetic state longer than they needed to. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

If you're in sympathetic and someone slams on their brakes in front of you, that's gonna be a lot more frustrating than if you were in your place of safety and connection. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

You know, one more thing, a c a question about this, uh without confusing it too much. But I so I'm thinking that God created us with these different states with uh originally the idea that there would be bears to fight or lions to spear or or giants to to battle. Yes. And now those things are on my key in my keyboard or or yeah, in the highway. It's not it's not appropriate.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

There's still times I want to pick up rocks and throw at people, but that's not appropriate.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

So what do we do with all of that adrenaline and energy when there when there's no physical place to I love that question.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Um, because you're right, like we need places to put this energy when we're in our different states, right? And that used to be a productive thing. We could expel that when we're running away from enemies or fighting things, but now we're or even just working hard on the farm.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

I mean we're we're digging ditches and stuff. Now we're not, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Now we don't have as many places to put that energy. So we wonder why we're so anxious and why we're so depressed. Well, we don't have the same outlets culturally that we used to have to expel some of that energy in our nervous system. And so, but I think we can gain a lot of insight when we tune into what is my body telling me, right? Like when we're feeling anxious, most people feel a little shaky. Like your body is telling you it needs to move. Like your body's starting to do that kind of on its own without even your awareness. Um, and so, and everyone's nervous system is different because it's shaped by our past experiences. So, you know, your nervous system is going to be regulated by different things than mine, and vice versa. But tuning into what is my body telling me it needs right now? And that's something that takes a lot of practice. And like we're often so disconnected from our head and our body. So this is some, this is a pathway that takes a long time to build. But um, tuning into what is my body telling me I need in these different states. Like for myself, I know when I'm in sympathetic, I do need to move. Like there's a lot of energy going on in my body. And if I'm just gonna try to sit here and be still, it's not gonna work. Right. My thoughts aren't necessarily gonna shift. But if I can get up and go on a walk, I find that that naturally starts to regulate some of that. Or if I'm in dorsal bagel, I actually need something that's a little activating. Yeah. Like I might need to run my hands under some cold water, or I might need to listen to music, something that helps connect me back to something outside of myself. Um, and so just really getting attuned to your body and what it needs in those moments is what eventually helps bring us back to that place of safety and connection.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

So I use a phrase a lot. I think I took it from Joyce Myers, but I use a phrase a lot with people that you need to think about what you think about, that you need to be aware of what's going on in your head and and pay attention to that rather than just let well, and what you're saying is you need to think about what you feel about too. You need to think about what's happening in your body and what you're feeling. Where does that come from and how you respond to that? Wow, that's powerful. Uh I don't I don't mean for this to be a shameless plug, but one of the one of the drives of branches is that it be a place where we minister to body, soul, and spirit, the whole person. And this seems like it's really a place where you're taking your your counseling training, your what we would normally think of emotional, behavioral training, and now applying it to biology, too. How does how does this work? Yeah. So how does that so how connect those two things? How does that begin to impact me when I am, I think dysregulated is a word, when I'm when I'm disregulated, that it can create shame or or worthlessness? Is it just I feel like there must be something wrong with me?

SPEAKER_01 14:23

How does that I love the phrase connection before correction, right? So if we think about wanting to change thoughts that we're having, I'm so bad or I'm so wrong, um, we can, you know, try to replace those thoughts. That's not a bad thing to do, but I think something that may be more effective for people is um trying to change your body's response to what's going on and then allowing that to change your thoughts. It's called the bottom-up approach. And so um it's based based on this idea that um we all have a vagus nerve. Have you heard of the vagus nerve before? It's this, it's the longest nerve in your body that connects your brain to all your essential organs. And what's interesting about the vagus nerve is that 80% of the information that travels that really long road from your brain to your body is actually coming from your body, your nervous system to your brain. And so when we're just trying to change our thoughts, that's only 20% of that path, right? And so we're kind of fighting against things our body is feeling and telling us, and we're trying to get that down to help ourselves feel calm, but it doesn't always work, especially for nervous systems that are chronically dysregulated and have been shaped by traumatic experiences. So we really want to start with the body a lot of times and see if we can calm the body down and you know, be aware of what state we're in and what we need in order to shift that a little bit. Um, and then that can be much easier to change our thoughts from that place rather than fighting against the Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

That's good. So we we talk about something called cognitive behavioral therapy, where basically we tell people, change your thinking. Don't think about that anymore, just change your thinking, which is good and true, and that works, except when it doesn't. Yes. And when it doesn't, it may be that there's something in the very core of us in that vagus nerve that's not allowing us to do that. So, so get that in a good state before we start. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, yeah. So, all right, well, that's all we got time for. Thanks for talking to us. No. So so what do we do with that? How do I how do I begin to recognize what what's going on in me to make that helpful for me?

SPEAKER_01 16:32

So, one thing, a place I like to start with clients a lot of times is creating a map. So I'll actually draw out that ladder that we're talking about and we'll get really familiar with what each of those states feel like in our bodies and how they change how we perceive what's going on in the world. Because again, our nervous systems are different. So the way my nervous system experiences the world is different than how my clients do.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

So we want to So you might just say, okay, when you're feeling this or or when you're experiencing this, heavy traffic on I-24 and late for work and all that. This tell me what's going on inside of you that's to identify what state you're in. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Yep. And we want to build that language and that awareness of what that feels like so that when it happens, you know. And then when we know what state we're in, we know what we need. Because so often when we're in states of dysregulation, it's what do you need? I have no idea. Like I have no clue how to help myself. And so this helps put us in the driver's seat of what's going on in our nervous system so that when that happens, we have tools. And so I'll often build a map just to help um clients get awareness around what state that they're in, but we'll also build another map about what resources do you need, because it's going to be different depending on which state you're in. Yeah. Um, and so and the goal is always that we're moving back towards you know, that ventral vagal safety and connection. We're not meant to live there, but when we're there, that's when we experience God, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:51

That's when we that's at least the goal to keep moving toward that.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

We experience connection with other people, all these good things that he's like.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

So Paul says I'm being changed from glory to glory, ever increasing glory. I'm I'm getting closer to that vagal state. Probably never fully arrived, but I'm getting close to that. Yeah, that's good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Yeah. Yeah. So it definitely impacts, you know, if it impacts everything, it impacts how we see God. It impacts how we see other people. And so if he's calling us to do these things or he's calling us into relationship with himself, but we're stuck in survival states, it can be really difficult to access that. And so having the right awareness and tools can help us get there more effectively.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

Yeah, that's good. So are there some things that I when I've you've you've taught me the language, I have a fairly good idea where I am. You you mentioned earlier just running your hands under cold water. Are there some things that I can do to help me kind of get back on track to get regulated?

SPEAKER_01 18:49

Yeah. Um, one thing I encourage people to do is we talk a lot about triggers, right? Things that send us into survival states. We all also have glimmers. Glimmers are things that help us get back into safety and connection. And so um, and glimmers don't necessarily mean I'm happy and joyful out of 10 out of 10. It means I feel okay, like I feel okay enough in the world. And so when we um get a good idea of what our glimmers are, these things that pull us back into a feeling of okayness, um, we can even outside of those moments, like mine is I love um when the light is like coming through the trees. That's a beautiful moment. Just makes me take a deep breath for a second. Um, even if I can't access that, even if we're in a room with no windows, like we are right now, I can think about those times and my nervous system can actually respond to that. And so it's it's the same way when you're talking with someone and you're talking about old memories or things that made make you happy and you start to feel happy, right? Your nervous system starts to respond to that and feel safe and connected versus when you're talking about really hard things where someone is talking about, you know, their trauma, then your nervous system starts to kind of respond to that as well. And so we can use that to um even out if we can't access those those glimmer moments, um, you know, we can use that to pull us back into safety. Um even in moments where we feel like we can't control a lot.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Yeah. So I can I can either I literally recreate those glimmer moments, do go for a walk, pull out a photo album and go through and literally do that, or I can cognitively just put myself in a state, think about some of those. I I uh this is a little bit of an exaggeration, but you know, I I can I can talk an hour about great baseball plays that my grandson made. Yeah, you know, and I can stop. I literally can see that. I can I can smell the dust on the field all that. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Yeah, that's I love that you're bringing in the senses because the senses help ground us, right? So like thinking about these glimmers and what did my eyes see? What did my my ears hear? What did my my hands feel? And that really brings us back into those moments um in a really neat way. Yeah. So yeah, using those glimmers.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

I I do have some news for you. You have no idea what your triggers or your glimmers are until this baby comes. It's gonna be I'm sure you're right. You're gonna have glimmers in whole different places. Let's see. Um, I appreciate Mazda. One more thing. Yeah, excuse me, one more thing. Um, and you've talked about it, you've alluded to it, but I I called this the polyvagal theory in Jesus. What about what about Jesus? How I mean Jesus is a is a glimmer. Yeah. And but but more than that, how does that walk with God? That that relationship? Yes. How does how does that re-regulate me?

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Absolutely. Well, Jesus was the author of co-regulation. He created us to need one another and to need him. We're created as dependent beings, and no one's nervous system can regulate itself fully on its own. And so I think this really draws us into a beautiful dependency on him and the fact that we have a hope that we're gonna fully be. Ventral vagal for all of eternity one day. We're going to be so safe and so connected, and we can get moments of that with him here on earth. And so he's constantly inviting us back into that. He calls himself our his ref our refuge and our home. And um he uses the same kind of language of like safety and invitation into relationship. And so when we can respond to that and when our bodies can experience that in a real way, because the Holy Spirit is alive and living, and um, we can sense that a lot of times. And so when we um experience these moments of co-regulation with him, it just creates this beautiful bond that yeah, is is part of his design.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

That's good. That's good. Yeah. I uh I long for that. It's funny, even as you describe it, you can I can feel myself being drawn toward that kind of safe place regulation within.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

That's your nervous system, just knowing what what it desires and what where it belongs. And yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Thank you, Madison. It's been fun having you do this. Thanks a lot.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

Of course.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

We uh we kind of had to hurry and get you in before the baby came, and then we'll get you in again when the baby's here.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

So the branches baby can join us.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

So thank you for taking the time to do this. Yeah. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. Uh we can get dysregulated. We move up and down that ladder and we get in places where either we are uh we are sensitive to what's going on around us and preparing for that fight or flight mode, or we're actually being shut down, overwhelmed by all that, and shut down. You know, the the first thing that I say is that's okay. I mean, that's the way God made us. And it's okay when you find yourself in those states. It's not so much being in the states, it's how you respond to them. It's getting stuck in those states where their problems occur. So, so just learn to be aware, learn to know what's going on. Talk to somebody who can help you find a good vocabulary to understand what's going on with you, and then find some places, some glimmers to help you put yourself back in a state where you hear God saying to you, peace be still. Uh, it's gonna be okay. That's God's plan for you and his desire for you is to do that. This has been a great conversation about polyvagal theory and about how God gives you the ability to do some co-regulation, some kind of putting yourself back in the in the right state. So thanks for being a part of this and thanks for listening. If you'd like to know more about that, you can go to the branches website. Uh, you can you can look at some of the material that branches makes available and help you to understand more about this. Uh, we appreciate you being a part of Extending Branches. Uh, Extending Branches is a twice-a-month podcast that's produced by branches. Uh, and I'm gonna see how many times I can say branches in this paragraph. Uh, it's intended to help people find hope, experience healing, and enjoy growth in your life and your walk with God. If you'd like to know more about it, go to branches.org. We're gonna start giving away $20 bills every time I say branches on this. I'm just kidding. We're really not gonna do that. We'd love for you, if you like the podcast, we'd love for you to share it, to like it, to do all those things you do with podcasts. You can find a plethora of information on the branches website. Uh, we do things that we hope are inspirational and informational and entertaining. Uh, we do things like uh weekly Monday matters, uh, a daily uh take a minute, make a difference. We do blogs, all of that to help you to do a better job of being co-regulated and being the kind of person that God intends you to be. Jesus said, I am the vine and you're the branches. Our goal is to continue extending branches.