Interview: Zach Ramelan

I chat with filmmaker Zach Ramelan - a known vlogger - about life, careers, his journey as a director and how his most recent film, "Sway", came to be.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of the Film Element Podcast. I am Mike Glant, your host, and today I will be interviewing a filmmaker that I've known for I think almost a decade now. His name is Zach Ramalan. He's one of the directors of the indie film Sway, which you may or may not have heard me review on a previous podcast. So I thought today I would finally bring him in and we would chat and just uh go back and forth and he could tell us about himself. So, Zach, that's your intro. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Oh, Mike, thank you for having me on your podcast. I absolutely love what you're doing. And I've watched a few of your episodes now, and I love that you're channeling that indie film spirit and I think also targeting the Canadian filmmaking system. And um, I'm really excited to talk about sway, movie making, and uh yeah, dive in deep with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Well, that's incredible. This is not supposed to be about me, it's supposed to be about you. But you know what? I'll take that anyway, because that's the first compliment I've gotten on this podcast so far. So I'll never turn down a nice compliment. So much appreciated.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Uh well, dude, you get ready for them. You're there since you told me that you don't get them often, you're just gonna get a bunch. And even though I can't see your face right now, I'm sure it looks stunning.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Listen, I'm not a sailor, so I'm not fishing for these, but you know what? Uh when when when a good catch comes your way, why turn it, why turn it down? So much appreciated. But yes, that's great. I uh and I appreciate that you feel that way because I this is one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you, right? Is that I feel that there is sort of a kindred sphere between you and I specifically, and not not obviously just you and I in the circle, but there's a lot of like-minded people that are sort of operating the way we have in the past few years to sort of make our productions and sort of get our names and our careers going and out there over the past, like I said, I would I I would mark my start at this pretty intensely around 2017, 2018. It's 2026 now, so probably about eight years or so. I feel like you might have been doing that for even longer, but I'm not sure. Um, but yeah, that's the reason I wanted to talk to you because I feel that what you do specifically, so for those who are listening and don't know who Zach is, Zach is a filmmaker and he's made a lot of really great shorts over um, like I said, the past decade, many of which I've seen either in uh a screening or a film festival or even just online on my own off of his YouTube channel. And then on top of that, Zach has turned his YouTube channel into almost like filmmaking bootcamp and given these really great insights into what it is to be an independent filmmaker, like a true independent filmmaker, almost a DIY filmmaker, and has provided just so much great information and inspiration to a lot of people who want to do it themselves. Uh, is that a fair assessment, would you say, Zach?

SPEAKER_00 3:10

I I think it is, Mike. And just for your viewers, I'm gonna switch my camera angle up a bit now because now I feel pressure that this shot has to look better than just I set my camera up. So while I'm while I'm responding to you, because I realize we can do this because we're not actually looking at each other on our chat. Right. Move my camera. Um, and for those who are other filmmakers, you're gonna learn that this is the art of shooting a better talk-to-camera. So one one second, Mike. I'm fixing my camera.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Yeah, no problem. So I'll I'll talk during that. So funny enough, I've been working over the past few podcasts to sort of figure out what the best lighting uh setup is for this podcast. And the first couple of episodes where I was just blasting the light right onto my face, I thought, oh, that looks great. And now I look back because I'm trying to put together all these little vertical clips, and I'm like, Jesus Christ. So I think I threw on a nice little ND filter. I sort of rearranged where the light normally sits and I moved the I changed my position towards the camera. Actually, inspiration from guys like you who have been doing it longer and uh seem to really know what they're doing.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Um man, I feel I feel like I I don't know if you ever dealt with this, but for me, I always had like a thing with my hair where it had to be like this perfect way, especially in high school. Right. I had like this obsession of trying to make sure it was like the perfect thing. I like straightened it, put dippity-doo gel in, which is like glue for your head. Yeah. And being so such a perfectionist over and over again, and fortunately I don't do that anymore because I just wear hats. But both I feel like my new version of that is doing these talk-to-camera setups where I'm just like constantly adjusting. Like, I think if you're to watch any of my YouTube videos, not one is the same with the lighting or camera setup. Oh, really? I feel like there's something really fun about it. Yeah, and I think there's something really fun about it. Like you're you're now just embarking on the journey. I admire so many creatives who kind of have the same setup that they keep going to. But this has always been an excuse for me to try out different setups because you know, when you're making a movie, you can like you you only have the opportunity to do one setup. You're like actor, DP, everyone's there and the clock is ticking. You don't really have the freedom to be like, well, what's if we like adjusted this here or there? Um, maybe if you're shooting a commercial, but when you're doing like, you know, narrative work or even documentary work, how it's set is how it's set. And so that's why I love these YouTube videos or podcasts, is you just have time to tinker and find that optimal setup. Like, even while I'm doing this, I'm like, oh, why haven't I ever shot from this angle before?

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Well, it's funny. I actually I feel personally that I just really only have so many options because I'm in my office. So I only really just like doing it this way because I'm in a white office and it's not decorated that crazily. So the only other backgrounds don't really work for me. Like, so many people put a table in front of them and then have their mic on a mic stand, whereas like I'm literally facing away, like in the other direction from my desk. So it's like I have nothing to put the mic on, and it's on it's literally on a light stand, like I don't even have a mic stand yet.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Dude, don't worry, I'm holding my microphone right now, so I'm I'm even more like running gun than you are.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

All right. Uh well, anyway, I'm sure this is completely fascinating for so many people to hear the ins and outs of how the YouTube videos are made. But uh, let's move on. So I want to actually talk about your career and just where did you start? Like how long? I don't know how old you are. I think I have a relative idea, but uh, why don't you just walk me through when and how all of this started for you?

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Yeah, so 32. Okay. Uh 32 years old, not 32 years doing it. I think I'd be seemed like a vampire if that was the case. Um, but I've been doing filmmaking for probably 15 years, right when I got out of high school. I started making movies. I was doing music videos for bands and friends and trying to cut my teeth doing that. I skipped doing film school, not because I didn't want to do it. I got a scholarship out of high school to go to um any school of my choice uh at that time, specifically within the arts. And I decided to hold my breath on that and go and try and make movies on my own. Um, because I thought as much as it was a uh scholarship, I still needed to, I think it was just for like the first year or so. After that, I had to um cover the fees and stuff. And so I was like, you know what, instead of spending money on film school, uh, I'm feeling like I'm learning a lot from this place called YouTube, specifically the the channel Film Riot, and maybe I can learn everything that I want to learn this way. Um, I was getting jobs already as like an editor. Um, and so I'd be like, okay, let me just try doing this, and if it doesn't work within my first year out of high school, um, I'll go to uh Ryerson. And so it was months of feeling insecure about that decision and simultaneous filming my first I call it a feature film. Uh so it was a movie, it was a horror film called Hooked, and my real strategy was to make a feature film um in the minimum time frame for a feature film. So I think it's 45 minutes and it can be called a feature. And so it was like if I can make a feature film out of high school, that sets me above most university students. And so that was my whole goal. So between grade 12, I started filming it in grade 12, and by the time I was one year out of uh high school, I had made a feature film in quotations. It's horrible, and that taught me so many things. Uh, I think specifically within the horror genre, you can learn makeup, sound design, cinematography, crazy performances. Like it's really the most vibrant genre, especially for indie filmmakers. And so I started submitting to film festivals with that movie. Uh, and then that kind of ignited me to go make another movie, which is um maybe perhaps how you and I came across each other. But this was a movie called Dead Rush. It was a first-person zombie movie, and this was a short film that I made based off of just what I was seeing on the internet, um, also my film school. And I was like, Oh, there's these there's like a POV chase movie that was pretty popular at the time. It was just like a music video, and I was like, oh, what happens if you did this, but there was zombies in it? Because what I was learning is what's popular is just the same but different. And I was like, Well, I'll just take this, I'll inject kind of my horror roots that I've learned from making these YouTube videos, or sorry, from this uh feature film. I keep calling it a feature film. It's an extended short film with really long credits to make it a feature. The I went out, made this first-person movie with a group of friends in the span of a day for I think 300 bucks. The most expensive thing we uh paid for was PC.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Wait, this is Dead Rush? This is Dead Rush.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

This is a short film that I made. And that movie, we started going to film festivals with that. Uh originally I just wanted it to be a short film, but I'm like, let's do the film festival world. This feels a lot better than this shitty feature I made, and let's just try and get exposure for that. Um, and the exposure from that short film, uh, one landed me a deal with a uh film company in the US, and uh they funded my first feature, true feature film, which was called titled Dead Rush, later retitled Um Kill Another Day, uh, and Hardline once it got global distribution. But that movie, the short film, was just or the feature film was just an adaptation of the short film, which was a first-person zombie film told from the main survivor's perspective. And that uh kind of ignited a bunch of things for me as far as uh being a creative and filmmaker. Um, and so I worked on that feature for a better part of a year. Um we ended up landing global distribution, we shot the film for $25,000. It gave me the confidence to kind of continue to what I was doing. Um, I landed other directing gigs from that. I also never wanted to make movies again after doing that film as well. Uh, because if any of your listeners are aware, making a movie is like single-handedly the hardest thing you can ever artistically pursue because they're never ever done. There are so many collaborators, and you can spend a year to 10 years of your life on something with no guaranteed return, even with massive commitment. And that was what happened. I spilled my blood, sweat, and tears into it, uh, burned bridges, built friendships, uh, definitely shaved a couple years off of my life, and in the end, um, while the movie got uh success, uh it was also not critically acclaimed, and it was very painful for a 21-year-old filmmaker who had just spent uh what would be his like tuition and uh you know time in university on a film that in his eyes flopped. And so I uh took the next eight years away from doing narrative film and started trying to hone in my skills as a content creator and a YouTube filmmaker, making uh short videos online, working with clients. Um, hold on, Zach.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

I just want to go back, I want to go back a little bit to Dead Rush specifically. Sorry, no, no, no, no, it's good, good. Because what what you said was very profound in terms of like how you went through your experience. Like you said, obviously you were only 21 at the time, so there's a lot that you know you can take away just from you being that age and going through that. But you know, like you said, you poured your blood, sweat, and tears into that film, and then in your eyes, I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but in some ways it sounds like it made you feel like a failure, even though I would obviously anybody with half a brain would say, you know, no matter what you think, what no matter what the film does, if you finish it and it goes out and does what it does, it can't be considered a failure, you know, like just in terms of like what you're able to achieve from what where it started, right? You were able to manifest this thing literally into existence and you know, it went out, sold money, and did all that. So I'm just curious, I just want to go back a little bit to that and just sort of understand why those feel why you felt that way so much. Um, like I said, I'm sure part of it was maybe underestimating how long it takes to get to real success. Like, did you anticipate it was going to be the next uh Knight of the Living Dead? Or like what sort of contributed to you feeling that way?

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Yeah, it was 100% it. I think I was studying, you know, the filmmakers to who I grew up on, which were, you know, the Spielbergs or the Roger or not Roger Cormans, the um, now I can't think of Night of the Living Dead director, not Roger Corman. Who drew who did Night of the Living Dead?

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Oh, I can't think uh Romero. Romero, right? Who are we?

SPEAKER_00 14:03

So I thought I was gonna be the next Romero. I thought we had a movie that was gonna go to Sundance or TIFF and gain all this acclaim, and then I was gonna put my feet up and you know, soak in the sun of my success. And what ended up happening was I didn't get any of that success. Uh, those who loved my short film disliked the feature film. Uh it was my first time ever experiencing widespread like critique. And the real nail, final nail in the coffin of that journey was I had made this feature film being the first filmmaker in Canada to do a first-person film. Many people told me I couldn't do it, and I was like, okay, I well now I have to do it because he told me I can't. Uh, I had gone out and made that movie, and um, the film to which had inspired me to do my short film, that director too had been working on a first-person feature at the exact same time. And just collective consciousness, both those movies came out simultaneously. So my movie came out a week after uh this movie called Hardcore Henry, and uh it was the most devastating day of my life where I was, I think we were doing reshoots of our movie, and I saw the trailer for Hardcore Henry and saw that they had done it with a million-dollar budget. They did it in Russia so they could do, you know, whatever the hell they wanted. I was doing it in Ontario, Canada for 25 grand and thought that that that was a million dollars, which very quickly you find out that it's not. And uh, you know, I think the news of seeing Hardcore Henry being bought and at this bidding war during TIFF, um, and then my movie coming out and people thinking it was a knockoff of that film without even watching it, was kind of just this like devastating thing where I'd spent a year and a half on this project, destroyed myself over it, and then found out that it was just a knockoff of someone else's project. Uh, and not only that, there was then another first-person zombie movie that had come out that same month. Um, and then I think another movie came out. So rather than being this like cool first-person, first-time director, uh, I was very much just the guy riding the wave everyone else was creating.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Because obviously you had made that film that month or that week after you saw those movies. Like clearly all of the That's how you do it. Or you went to their sets and saw what they were doing a year ago, and you said, you know what, I'm gonna do the exact same thing and come out at the exact same time. Yeah, it's always hilarious when people when when people accuse you of being derivative of something. It's like, do you understand how long ago we shot that? Like, there is no way to anticipate all of these things lining up.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Like I a hundred percent, man. And like I think that's you know, now when I look back at it uh with perspective, it's a blessing that people gave me that criticism or that I kind of was in that rut, and now I have perspective on that because I think now I can look back and go, wow, anything I make moving forward, I don't care if it resembles something else that's simultaneous, just somehow came out at the same time. Whatever I'm doing has its own flavor. Um, and at the end of the day, like if I can make projects for me and for the experience of doing the project, and then its success is the bonus, really every project's a win. Versus making that project and putting all of your chips in that basket, being like, This is going to win, this is gonna be my Sundance slam dunk. Uh uh taking that out of the equation makes what we do so much better. Yes, one of those. And learning. Like, man, like I I feel like I learned more in that year and a half doing that film than probably 10 years at film school would have taught me.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Oh, 100%. 100%. There's no better way to learn than to do. And I think the other thing, and I'm hope I assume you have this perspective, and it was like I said, it was probably a lot harder to see when you were 21. And in 2016, because even the landscape of filmmaking was a lot different in 2016. The the pond was a lot smaller, right? In terms of now everything is so saturated. If you put out a movie and people accuse you of it being derivative of something, you're just happy that it's being recognized uh enough for people to even have that criticism at this point. You know, like nowadays, irrelevancy is 10 times worse than uh bad critiques, in my opinion. If at the very least, I'm getting uh criticized. I'm like, well, at least people are watching and seeing it. That's the that's the thing I care about, at least at this point in my life. Like, obviously, you do want to make stuff for yourself and feel really good about what you're doing, despite what an audience might say. But also, I'm at a point now in my life where it's like, okay, I kind of need to build up this audience and keep like understand that people know me and uh understand what I'm doing. So I kind of have to put myself more and more out there, even if I get, like you said, the criticism back, that to me is okay. It's funny, um, my feature Duchess of Cancun is on a bunch of like high subscribed YouTube channels. I don't know if any of your films have gone through this, but um so you know, I'll check it out, and on this pay on this YouTube page, it has like 80,000 views, or like there's other ones it gets up to like hundreds of thousands of views. And man, you want to talk about criticism, go through YouTube comments, right? Like those people don't hold back. And there's nice stuff in there. What's that?

SPEAKER_00 19:47

There is no filter on YouTube.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

No, no, it's it's uh it's hell, it's hell on earth. But I also think I don't take I don't take a lot of that serious or I don't take it too much to heart because A, it is the internet, and B, you know, I'm like, yeah, I'm making something that people are gonna have a feeling about. I think that's okay, like whether they like it or not. I would obviously prefer that they like it, you know, but I also have to accept the other side of it as well. And uh and I think that's okay. And I'm sure at 21 it was probably harder for you to understand that versus where you are now in your life, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:23

I think it was, and I think I needed to go through the process of making videos on the internet, being criticized, and kind of figuring out who I was. I kind of publicly figured out who I was in a project and then uh assumed that all of my validation or um public recognition would come from that, and so when I put it all into that project, it was, you know, pretty discouraging what the outcome was. But all that's to say, man, like, you know, the the pros of doing this movie is uh way better than the cons. I just couldn't see it in that first, you know, couple years. Um now I look back on and I'm like, oh my god, I you know, half the people I know or have built good friendships with came from that. Um, I really learned everything there is to know about making a movie. And in some cases, I kind of wish I went back to that naive spirit I had when I made that movie, versus now I've created all these like rules and shortcuts on how to make a movie, and then I was just sort of like, I don't know how it's done. I think it's done this way. Right. And I think that created a lot of innovation for that project. Um, and vice versa. Me then was like, Oh, I wish I knew what I know now, but um hindsight's 2020. But what ended up happening uh from that movie is yes, it got global distribution. We were on, I know exactly what you're talking about, the movie being redistributed on other channels because like uh after it was done, we sold the movie um to I forget the name of the distributor, but uh the financier had sold the film and we had gotten distribution in everywhere. Like there's a Russian version, a Japanese version. There was uh obviously American. It was uh re-released in the UK through a different title. Uh, and I'd seen all these things break out, and then I see it going on to like Pirate Bay and you know getting its own, you know, viewership through Torrents, and then uh eventually being uploaded online and seeing it garner probably over a million plus views just online. Uh, and the result of that was I saw nothing at return, no financial kickback, no recognition beyond my own circle out of that movie. And it was a big learning lesson for me about making a project and having expectation for output and also, or rather, input from your output, and also learning that uh you just never know where things are gonna go when they're done. Um, so yeah, that project was a big learning lesson. And uh I I think for any of your listeners who are like aspiring filmmakers or anyone who wants to go out there and go make a movie for the first time, the dad rest story of our feature is really like not necessarily a buyer-beware journey, but more a you know, check yourself before you go make a project and understand what the outcome could be. It might be much better than what my outcome was. Uh, and I I very much hope so it is, but uh also it could go in that direction. And the blessings are not actually the phone calls you get with the Hollywood company the next day. A lot of those are just kind of false promises. Uh the real blessings are the challenges that you overcame while making it, the relationships you built, and all of that wisdom you gained that you'll like never forget.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Yeah, I I 100% agree with you. Obviously, the two features, and then I put a lot of my shorts in the middle of that as well. You know, those are the those are some of the happiest times I've ever had was making that stuff. Like I can't, I can't even think right now of a project that I made, at least that I was like mostly in charge of, where I didn't have a great time doing it, whether it was the people I was with or what we were doing, where we were doing it, you know, like all of that was just, you know, I think Kevin Smith uh a few months ago put out a thing about his first experience when clerks premiered, I believe, that Sundance. Or or it might not even have been at Sundance yet. It was just like the first main screening he had done with a group of people in a movie theater. And he said he felt dick. He's like, Why are these people swearing so much? This story doesn't make any sense. This is just terrible. And he's talking about clerks, like the first clerks movie, right? You can make that argument for the sequels, but certainly the first is iconic. And what he said, even despite feeling that way when it was over, he still said to himself, and he goes, I had never felt more myself than when I was on a movie set doing this. He goes, anything I had ever else experienced or done before or after making or shooting a film, he goes, nothing compares to what that feeling is. And just realizing this is the number one reason you've been put on this earth. Now, to me, obviously he he's a well-known, established, you know, successful filmmaker. So it makes a lot of sense for him to say that. You know, when guys like you and I say that, it's like obviously we've enjoyed, we've enjoyed middling to whatever success. I think even to some degree you've probably enjoyed more than I have. But I think to declare this thing where, you know, I was born to be a filmmaker, you know, I have no problem feeling that way. But declaring it is more tough. And I think as a family man now, and with all these responsibilities for my family, I feel less inclined to like want to lean into that because I'm also like, well, right now it's not really, it's not working out the way I thought at the moment. So I have to make a decision of do I continue down this road and keep trying to figure it out, or do I go this road? And it doesn't really include filmmaking or at least directing, especially my own stuff. You know, that's and I don't know, maybe you're at that crossroads yourself, or maybe you know, Sway has sort of given you this new lease on life with your career, but I'd be curious to know your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Yeah, and I I think it's a good segue so that people don't think it's some doom and gloom story of making your first feature and then never coming back. Um and I'm excited to hear what your trajectory looks like as well, because I I we haven't really caught up outside of this podcast, so I'd I'd love to know more about where you're going. Um, but at least with doing Sway, so I took, I would say eight, seven to eight years away from doing you uh for doing film, narrative film, and I just started doing commercial work, I traveled the world, kind of found myself through doing client work and uh adventure movies, and then uh landed back doing shorts and eventually making a feature film with one of my best friends, Charlie Hamilton, who uh uh wrote and co-directed the project with me. And that film came together very quick, faster than Dead Rush, which was I think it was three years ago. Charlie like gave me a phone call. I was just driving back from a little short web series me and my fiancee were shooting, and he's like, Hey man, me and uh this actor Emmanuel Cabongo, we're all putting money in. I'm putting five grand in, he's putting five grand in. Uh, we have a couple other people who want to throw some cash in. We're gonna be shooting this in three weeks, three to four weeks. Uh something crazy like that. Maybe it was like, you know, a month and a half, but it was very fast. He's like, Are you interested in joining me on this journey? I'd love for you to co-direct it with me. He sent me the script. I read it twice in a row, blew my mind. I'm like, okay, we have to go make this film. And that did reignite the excitement of making a film. Uh, a month and a half later, we were behind camera. We shot that film in six days, and then it ended up gaining some pretty cool recognition uh over the span of two years, playing at a variety of festivals that I'd only dreamed of playing at, getting actually good uh acknowledgement and acclaim, including yourself, on your podcast, which was so awesome to hear. And uh it it kind of did put the wind back in my sails to say, hey, like this is possible. And it was really cool, you know, getting the opportunity to go to Cineplex, which here in Canada is um our a major theater chain, and seeing our movie, like getting a movie ticket, and then seeing the film on the little ticker tape that's above the cinema door, and entering the theater and watching your movie with a crowd of strangers who outside you can hear them like bickering about, you know, or not bickering, but like mumbling about what what they're about to see. Like that being like a voyeur uh for your own film and a stranger in the cinema for a movie is like part one of the best experiences I've ever had. Um, and just witnessing a film create an impact. And so that definitely excited me to make movies again, um, and in a different way. I think what I've learned, at least what my journey is, is not to make movies the traditional way. I've found that I've gained a lot of friction through doing that and kind of carving my own path in like a hybrid style. So blending all of the lessons I learned from trying to do something traditional like Dead Rush, while also merging the stuff that I've learned over the last eight years, doing YouTube videos and building out a channel of 145,000 subscribers and trying to like learn how do you work with audience, um, expectation, wants, needs, title, thumbnail, all that crap algorithm, uh, while also weaving in narrative storytelling and being a passionate filmmaker, and all the lessons I learned from watching Christopher Nolan movies and Spielberg and George Romero. Like, how do you weave that in too? And what I've learned is that there is a middle ground, and not many people are exploring it, other than those who do internet videos. And that's what really excites me. Technology has never been so accessible. Um, uh technological advancements have never been so quick to change. Like every day I'm looking at a new camera, AI thing, audio deal. Um, and at the core of it all is storytelling. And for me, like what got me to hold a camera, as I'm sure same for you, uh, was the fact that you had like these crazy ideas in your head that you just needed to get out. And the biggest bottleneck for me was technology, and now it's like, well, technology isn't even a bottleneck anymore. Any idea is possible at a pretty high level, so really it's just you getting in your own way. So um, if anything, Sway encouraged me to uh go out and shoot more with less limitations, and the fact that a buddy of mine can call me up, and in a month and a half, we're at camera shooting one of the most important projects of our life just because there was a great script behind it, and someone who said, Hey, I'm making this no matter what. Uh, if you're in or you're out, we've got five, ten, fifteen grand. There's probably gonna be more money coming along, but even if there's not, we're just doing it. And so that sort of relentless spirit encouraged me to just continue that. And now we're on our third feature uh that we're currently writing and coming up with and crafting that sort of hybrid spirit along the way.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Yeah, and there's so many things I want to touch on. And like I said, this I don't even care if this one goes longer than usual, but there's so many different aspects of this I want to touch on. First off, when you talked about, you know, when you were doing the feature, like the traditional sense, you said you uh, I don't know if you said you burned bridges, or you just said there's stuff doing it that way didn't work for you, or you or you burnt bridges that way. I think that's exactly what you said. Um correct me if I'm wrong. But what so what did you mean by that? Like, how did going making a film a traditional way in the dead rush way that you were uh talking about earlier, how did that sort of burn bridges for you and make you go, okay, this is not this is not the way I want to do things?

SPEAKER_00 31:56

So making it traditionally didn't necessarily burn bridges for me, but I was flying off the seat of my pants with zero experience. And so whether it was shooting in a location and not being a responsible leader of that project and allowing crew members to stand on factory equipment that they weren't supposed to stand on, or uh crew members scraping a floor to which then lost our location the next day. Uh it's all really location uh specific. Uh that burned bridges with me with these locations, uh, which is a full other chat. Um, so I think that that's where the burning bridges came from. The traditional filmmaking style that left a bad taste in my mouth was the hierarchy of distributor kind of having full hands on your project after it's done and you having no control of your baby once you've once you've put it out in the world. And I didn't like that. I started learning that in YouTube you could have full control of your project, and if you weren't afraid of the distribution model, um, you could actually dictate what audience would want to see it, or at least have metrics on how did they enjoy it, what do they think of it. Um, and I think the director and lead creatives on projects are very much shied away from a lot of parts of the process, even in the traditional sense. Like if you're a director on a set, you're not allowed to hold a light stand, you're not allowed to touch the camera. That's a DP's job. The gaffer holds the light stand. You talk to the actors and the producer, and that's it. You you communicate with the DP, but you can't talk to background actors, especially if you're on union. Like, there's just so many rules that I just wasn't my vibe. And I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I think direct there are directors doing that who are amazing at it, and it's great to insulate the director as well from all the chaos. I think an overwhelm director is also not a good thing. But I found myself wanting to hold the camera, wanting to dance with the actors in the scene uh while working with the cinematographers lighting, and I also wanted to be able to know where was my movie going? How are we marketing it? Um, and so the thing that put the bad taste in my mouth was just a lack of not even control. It was just a uh being insulated so much and feeling like I was stupid because I wasn't so I wasn't supposed to do this, your directors don't do that, oh you're a first time this. And so all of the intuition that I had as a filmmaker, uh, and a naive filmmaker, I think like we I label it as being naive, and I actually think that's a blessing. That naiveness was my intuition, but I disguised it as like being dumb. And now when I think back to it, I almost wish I had that naive in intuition uh a little bit more. That's what I was talking about earlier with like these kind of shortcuts you make in your head because you're like, well, it's supposed to be this way, it should be done. The industry does it this way, and that's because it's being indoctrinated to you from other creatives and other filmmakers and unions and all that stuff of rules that are just made for paychecks to protect people. But for me as a creative who loves getting their hands dirty, that just rubbed me the wrong way. And so, um, with future projects, like I want to hold the camera, I want to have a close relationship with the DP, I want to have the opportunity to act in it if I want to act in it. Um, if I want to go shoot another 30 minutes of the movie because we're missing a good chunk of the story to make it better, I don't need to talk to 20 people to do that. I can just go out with the actors and do it. That to me is what feels creatively freeing, and it's possible. Um, so we shot Sway in six days, but because we were so close to Emmanuel, who was the uh lead producer on the project, we were able to go, hey, you know what? Like, can we do one extra reshoot day where you, me, Charlie, the other director, go out and we just like we're not gonna have any crazy lighting. Uh the lighting's gonna be the taillights of uh the car. Charlie's just gonna have his foot on the brake, and we just need to get shots of you walking around the city. We need some of this stuff to add context. And we did it because we didn't have a list of producers we had to talk to. And that to me is what's exciting about the process. It creates a flow state that um has no hierarchy.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

Yeah, and that's and that's an incredible way to operate. Obviously, I have a lot of projects that I operate the exact same way. I hate having too many mouths to feed on a set, you know, or I don't like I want elbow room on a set. I don't want, you know, 30 different people huddled into a room because of this or that. And then it's like, oh, can I turn the camera slightly? Can I can we just pan slightly to the left? It's like, oh, well, all that shit's over there. Oh, we got to move this light, we gotta move, we have crew, you can see through the window, all that. And I'm just like, all right, that's gonna take another 20 minutes, so screw it. Let's just all do it right here so we don't have to move around. And I've I find filmmaking like that extremely frustrating. Sometimes it's necessary, it just is what it is. But uh, I find that really daunting and pretty frustrating personally. I think what you described though, especially like what I like talking about uh with this podcast specifically is I like talking about the business of film because I think creatively, I think that a lot of that has been covered. Like, I don't think people should listen to me if they want to learn how to be a director specifically and how to do three-point shooting and you know, master coverage coverage. Like, don't this isn't why you would want to listen. What I want to help people understand is the business side of it, which I think is still under still misunderstood, but also underrepresented uh in the education of and I think that's 80% of what we should really be focusing on. I think a lot, and I've talked about this on previous episodes. It's like so many people believe that if you're an artist, you don't have to think about the commerce. And I and I always feel that it's the inverse. If you want to have anything that resembles a career, if you would just want to do it once and spend other people's money and not care if they make any money back, you know, good on you. But I don't personally believe that. I think you need to be responsible if you're given money, even if you're spending your own money, like if you spend money that you don't have to worry about ever seeing again, good for you. But if you want to have a family one day, or if you have a wife or whatever, and you want to be responsible for other people, you know, do you want to put your children in debt? You know, and this is all advice I should probably heed myself.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Well, if I could just piggyback off of that for a second, yeah. Commerce, we have this diluted perspective of commerce because we connect it to Disney trying to make more Marvel movies to sell toys or rides or cruises, you know? And I think that trickles down to thinking that the big man is trying to control stories, but on an indie level, commerce is eyeballs, it's an audience. So if you want your movie to make a lot of money, really what you're saying is you want a lot of people to see your movie. You're not trying to sell toys, not at least at our level. Maybe at one point that will be my thing, but I I I have zero interest in doing that. I just want lots of people to see my stuff. Not out of a selfish way, but I I feel like there's people who resonate with what I like, and I like what other people resonate with, and I think community is kind of what we're seeking right now. And so for me, it's like I just want to make like a little a community hub, which is a movie, and the the best way for that to exist is through funding and financing and and money return so it can continue. So I think the business efication of art is a necessity for it to be sustainable, but also for it to exist um in general. If if there's no money coming in, no one's seeing your work, so you might as well have just made it for yourself. Um and so I love your your perspective of thinking about you know, you want to raise a family, you want to take care of people, like that's huge. Um and I think that it's both. And my suggestion always is business people need to scratch that inner artist inside more and think more about what's the audience wanting. And on the flip side, pure artists need to think business-wise uh if they want to have sustainability. And I really think the system to which we have, at least from what I was experiencing, isn't the right system where the creative is insulated from the business side of things. And what I've learned from seeing TikTokers and YouTubers and the new generation of creatives is they are not insulated from that world. They're very much involved with who's being who's their sponsorship, who's their what is their audience, what are their audience like as a sponsorship? They're not gonna take some brand that is against their whole ethos, uh, because they know their audience is gonna dislike that. So I think it should be the other way around. And I hope that this new generation of creatives can kind of teach the world of of filmmakers and artists that that those two can be in the same boat, and it doesn't mean that you're selling out.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

And uh having said that, I now have to do a read from one of our sponsors, uh Squarespace. No, I'm kidding. Uh no, no, no sponsorship yet. Um, 100%. I think uh I think you are 100% on the money, and I think people are starting to more understand that. Like, I think this is exactly why I wanted to talk to you because I think you've actually done a really good job at creating a brand of yourself or for yourself, right? It's like not only you're not just a director, but you're also the guy who can talk extremely intelligently about filmmaking and the business of filmmaking. So not only like, and I think that's what like everyone knows what Martin Scortesi looks like, everyone knows who Steven Spielberg looks like, right? So I think to hide behind that doesn't make any sense anymore. And I know a lot of people try and do that. A lot of people I work with do that, and I'm always like, you gotta get out there way more. Like you're we're all falling behind, especially in Canada. Canada, uh, Canadians are way further behind that than the US. It's funny what you were talking about. I actually, so uh, you know, the film Undertone just came out this past weekend and made like nine and a half million dollars off of a $500,000 budget. And I've talked about this film uh previously, but um uh Ian Tucson, the director, did an interview with the Toronto Star recently, and he said they went to telefilm, Ontario creates all these different places for funding and didn't get any. They ended up spending their own money and even from a little money from LA in this company called uh Kino Studios or something. I don't I I don't remember the name, but he basically said, I don't understand. He goes, Look at what just happened to our movie over this past weekend. It sold for millions to A24 and then made almost $10 million on its opening weekend. And what what in what mind does it make sense for telefilm to turn that down or anybody else, right? Like, how do you not get funding for something that ends up being probably the biggest release in Canadian history? Like, if you're talking 100% Canadian-made film, I looked it up, and it's like the one who holds that throne is like Bon Cop Bad Cop from like 2006. So it's held that uh mantle for 20 years and it only made, I think, 12 million dollars. So it's very likely that Undertone is gonna overtake it. But again, this was the film that was overlooked by all of these infrastructure all of this uh economic infrastructure uh that we're supposed to have. So to me I I I'd be interested to know what you think, but to me, it tells us that our priorities are completely out of whack. And we're making stuff, we're funding stuff that no one wants to see anyway. And I don't I I'm not gonna paint that with a broad stroke. There's a lot of telefilm movies out there that are very accessible and mainstream, but probably not nearly as much as they should be, and they're using taxpayer money to basically throw that money away in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Well, something else that was in that article, because I read it this morning, and Ian Ian also brings up that I'm pretty sure he says, and so don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure he says, like, also in that system, no one is held accountable for not succeeding as a grant system, right? Like telefilm has been has however many millions, if not billions, of Canadian tax dollar money allocated forever. For I don't know how long telefilms existed, but these grant systems have existed for a really long time, and no one is accountable for the lack of success. Like, no one's getting fired because they didn't have a win. They stay on the committee, keep funding movies that are losing money and making our country publicly not look great. Like I grew up, I grew up with my parents saying, I remember watching movies with my dad, and we'd throw a movie on and he'd flip the channel within 10 minutes because he'd say, Ah, it looks Canadian. And I never knew what that meant until I started making movies myself. And I was like, Oh, Canadian just looks like an uncanny American film. Yeah, it looks like we tried and we got the teamu version of the US.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

It's the what? It's the Timu version, you know, like Amazon versus T MU.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

And that's what it is. And I and I think like I it's just been acceptable to be subpar because you like just finishing is the accomplishment in in this country, it feels like it's like, oh, you did you did it, you did the Canadian film festivals, or you got to one international, and that's you did it. Um, you got money, and that's great. And maybe you're celebrated in our country, but beyond that, like we're not a global film, we're not undertone. And what encouraged me not only with Undertone, but also this year we had uh Nirvana the Band, the show of the movie, which was another another global success. And both movies show me that we can make bold films here in Canada. Um, unfortunately, Nirvana the Band, the Show of the Movie was funded by telefilm, and I hope that that movie shows them that hey, our traditional way of funding films isn't necessarily the best strategy for to garner international acclaim. Like it, you know, with what my parents had said, it's like, oh, it looks Canadian. That's actually so untrue because Canadians are some of the best creatives in the world. We have some of the best exports, but that's all we have is exports. Everybody leaves. Like, I blew my mind when I found out James Cameron was Canadian. And if Denis Villanoux didn't have a French accent, I would have never thought that he was from Montreal or Quebec. And so you just assume that these people are from everywhere but here, but really they leave so they have better opportunities. And it's like there's something in our water that creates great talent, and just none of the talent wants to stay because of the systems. And so I hope movies like What Our Friends Are Doing is uh an indicator not only for up-and-coming talent, but these grant systems that hey, we need to start making bigger swings, um, or else we're just gonna sink under the shadow to which we have of America.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

And I I mean it's unavoidable, let's be honest. We have the same accent, we speak the same language. It's I mean, our culture is heavily influenced by theirs, right? Yes, we have some European flair in Canada, but mostly, you know, 70% of us live within 100 miles of the U.S. border. It's unavoidable. You know, we're we're basically North Dakotans or you know, uh, or uh upstate New York, uh New York Yankees. Like it's there's a very thin line between us and them. But that's that's fine to at least to recognize. And yes, our work is always going to have to compete against them. That's unavoidable. The UK, they have their own culture, even Australia sort of has their own flavor to their own work, so and they're so far removed from the US and North America. So they're obviously going to bring something different to the table. Canada has a lot, has a much taller hill to climb because we just we're so similar to them that it's hard to make an identity for yourself that is interesting, you know. But that said, I've been very impressed over the past, I would say, five to ten years. Um, and I think technology has actually played a part in that, in the way we have sort of carved out an uh an identity, or not even an identity, but we've sort of carved out our ability to compete with their creatives on that front. Like there's a show I I love called Office Movers, and they don't and they shoot non-union. Like, that's how low-key this film is. And I watched season one almost in a day, and I think I watched season two in one night. Like, I and I was just laughing beginning to end, and it and it had such a unique identity that is very specific to if you've ever gone to school in North York, like I went to school in New York University for two years. So I know the guys, I basically can recognize the personalities that are in that TV show. But anyway, I digress. What I'm saying overall is that I think that I think that we have this separation, but it's fine to recognize that listen, we're gonna have to compete. So we can't compete on a monetary level. Let's at least compete on a creative level. And I think Canadian films have actually done a pretty half-decent job doing that, at least in the the past couple of years. Um, I would put yourself, like I think Sway is an interesting film to sort of put in that mix. I think, you know, I give I think some of the stuff I've done has been interesting, and even I've shot some stuff in the US. Um, and even the film I edited called It Feeds came out a year ago, and that one did pretty decently in North America. Like it just it felt like any other US horror release, but it was there was nothing US about it. America, not even like Undertone, at least at A24. It feeds was like just a Canadian release, and uh and it did pretty well. Um, so I think there's something to what we're doing. Uh but that said, I want to go back to Sway a little bit because I think we've touched on it uh a little bit, but I'd be very curious as to sort of walk me through when like I I've heard a lot about how you guys made the film and all that stuff is great, but walk me through after you guys went through this film festival run, at what point did you land at your distributor and then how did you know these past couple of months come to be, I guess?

SPEAKER_00 51:14

Uh sorry, how did the last couple months come to be mean?

SPEAKER_01 51:17

You had your premiere at Cineplex, right? You had your big release in Canada there. So how did that how did that come to be in terms of like what once you guys like how did you find your distributor, and then how did it lead to its like limited theatrical release? I I guess I would say. Because a film of that size usually gets a straight to you know streaming release, like they don't usually do theatrical. So I was just curious how that happened.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

We were really lucky to be acquired by both Raven Banner and Breaking Glass. Raven Banner is the Canadian arm that is the distributor, and Breaking Glass is the US. And our producer, actor, um Emmanuel really fought hard to find the right distributor, and we had a lot of offers. Fortunately, Raven Banner was one of the first people, like they reached out, I think, as soon as they saw the first trailer and were eager to be a part of this. Uh, finding the American distribution was a little bit more difficult, but both Emmanuel uh and James Stewart, our other producer, were very passionate on the back end to make sure that the film found the right home and that we weren't kind of selling ourselves short. And so we were patient. I think part of the process is being patient and and waiting for the right thing to come. And listen, like we made a movie that when it came out and played its festival circuit, there were plenty of offers from like Steve Harvey's company, uh BET, I believe Spike Jones or Spike Lee rather. Uh like plenty of offers came to us and all of them fell short. And they were like, you know, million plus dollar offers. Wait, what? Hold on.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

Like, what do you what do you mean? Fell short.

SPEAKER_00 53:10

As far as like uh as far as like a distribution, um I or at least half a million and more uh to take the film and distribute it on their platforms. Um because they're so hold on, hold on, hold on, Zach.

SPEAKER_01 53:23

So they're offering you like $500,000 uh like up front as an MG, or like I again, uh my frustration in this world is being insulated from some of it.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

Okay. But the uh the the talk was that we were going to get um some some pretty good offers and deals because our film kind of scratched the itch of what these platforms were looking for.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

And but at the end of the day, man, like I'm sure you know this, um, we experienced it with Dad Rush, experienced with Sway. There is a lot of talk, and talk is so easy. Okay. And so I think people get really excited in a meeting room, and everyone goes, Tony Robbins, rah-rah, rah. But then when it comes to pen to paper, you know, uh like and listen, it's it's probably not excuses, it probably is genuine circumstances. But most times that I've been in these situations, you know, something goes bankrupt, or we don't have budget, or you know, uh new management, yeah, like whatever way it spins, um those pie-in-the-sky goals diminish. Um, and so we ended up not going with those those platforms. And I'm very happy with where we ended up, but there was you know some pretty big offers on the table for our project when we had completed it. Um, and and I don't think we're closing the door on any future ones. Like these are just um the distributions for rental and vod, but uh we don't have any streamers yet. So there's multiple avenues when you when you make a film. Um your first is sort of your theatric or your um festival run, and that's to kind of garner attention. And we played, I don't want to say like 30 to 40 festivals across North America and made it all the way to Africa for the Pan-African Film Festival. And we got to play at Whistler Film Festival and did all those things, and so that's stage one, and then stage two is hopefully at that point distributors are there and see your movie and go, Hey, I want to take your film and shop it around and give it a home. And so that's what we went with. We found a sorry, a sales agent who picked up the movie and found I don't know if it was a sales agent, I think it was a blend of both sales agent and a manual kind of finding the final home for our project, which was Breaking Glass and Raven Banner. And then Raven Banner believed in the film so much that they wanted to do a small Canadian theatrical with the opportunity for it to kind of get a bigger one if uh if the stars aligned after its initial release. And so we were able to extend our theatrical um at Cineplex in Toronto and even in the US through Breaking Glass, we were able to play at theaters in LA. Oh, great, and I think a couple other ones in the US, and I don't necessarily think that's to generate a big income, it's more to drum up attention around the film, and especially in an era of social media and getting people, you know, taking photos and going to screenings. Um, that really helps out a lot, and it definitely helped our film. It helped legitimize it. And then uh yeah, we were able to be on like a big billboard in the center of uh Young and Dundas Square, and uh all of those things I think helped make our film feel bigger and more legitimate in a sea of a lot of loud movies, and uh so that's that's how it ended up kind of playing out, and then now we're on uh uh digital like video on demand, so you can rent the film on Apple TV Plus or Apple TV, Amazon Prime, uh Google Play, and YouTube.

SPEAKER_01 57:00

Yeah, and that's I mean, that's great. Uh like what you described in terms of the theatrical release in those cities. I mean, I mean that's incredible. That because, like you said, for what you guys allegedly made it for, I'm not gonna throw numbers out unless you want to, but uh for what you guys say you made it for, and then for to like a movie that small to get a theatrical release. Not that it's not deserving, it's definitely deserving of it, you know. And like you could feel it when I saw it at the Cineplex in Dundas, uh at Young and Dundas, uh, it definitely plays well to an audience, which is great. And I was in a completely full movie theater. I think that was still the like main release release, because you weren't there, I believe. Charlie was, or were you there and Charlie wasn't? Do you know what I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_00 57:48

Uh yeah, we did like um like uh an event for the press. I think that was I was there and Charlie was not.

SPEAKER_01 57:54

Okay, right, right, right, yeah. Uh so and that was that was incredible. Obviously, you guys completely filled up that movie theater, and that was like and I was saying this about Undertone, you know, just seeing films with crowds, uh, I mean, there's nothing better. Even if they're small movies, but if they evoke something or they do something, I think that's I think that's just an incredible experience that we don't really get to uh go through together as much anymore. Like I watch so many, I I don't I barely watch stuff at home anymore in terms of movies because I'm like I get bored or something, like it just doesn't feel the same when I'm watching it at home. I can't describe it. And it's I think it's getting worse as I'm getting older. I'm like, am I too distracted now to even enjoy a movie on my television? Or is it just I think also when I'm home, sometimes I feel like I should be doing more. And I think that has probably has to do with like having kids or whatever. But uh, but when I get to go to a movie theater, I'm like, you know, this is where I am for two hours. Leave me alone. I get to eat popcorn, I get to enjoy it.

SPEAKER_00 58:58

I remember hearing James Cameron say that. He's like, the only difference between you watching at a theater and watching at home is a remote. Right. And it's the and I I mean, obviously, there's more things than that 5.1 audio, size of the screen, popcorn. But the big thing is that we don't have control to leave uh that situation as much, and we don't have like distracting tools around us. And I think this like aspect of convenient entertainment has actually been the demise of a lot of art.

SPEAKER_01 59:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:29

Initially, like art has never been like convenient, you know, it's like you had to go to a gallery, you had to go see a sh theatrical show, you watch a play, and it's an event, it's not convenient. And I think we need to start making art more of an event, yes, w and less of hey, I need to destimulate, so I'm gonna look at some art, aka Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. Um, it's sort of this convenience that allows us to numb, and we're building a brand new relationship with something that has such a profound effect on us that it's really saddening. And last night I went to go see Nirvana's band that showed the movie uh in a packed theater in my small town uh cinema uh here in Prince Edward County, and Matt Johnson was there, he did a QA, and it was so magical seeing that movie with an audience. Yeah. And I'd seen it two weeks earlier in a cinaplex of six people, and even then it was a magical experience. All six of us stood up and clapped to no one. We were just so excited about the movie. But I'm not doing that at my home alone. I'm not standing up and clapping to a movie in my living room, but because there was even just six of us, we were so excited, and so I think making art an event, and it really comes down to I think both um creatives and consumers. I think consumers need to start to appreciate films in a different aspect and are in a different uh way, but that's that's too much of an expectation for us consumers. I will put myself in that body. Well, I mean it does come from oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:02

I was just gonna say, I don't I hear a lot of chatter about that, you know, the generations coming up, want to watch everything on their phone, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I also, as true as that actually is, I also think that there's also a counterculture that's growing against a lot of that. I'm sure you've read the articles where it's like now vinyl stores and CD stores and physical media stores are starting to sell out, like they're doing crazy business with Gen Z and Gen Alpha because they want to own stuff. And it's weird to think it's like, oh yeah, this generation didn't even have a physical version of any movie. They just have to watch it all as streamers or rentals. Whereas like I still at least have a little bit, I got rid of a lot of my physical media, like the DVDs. I just think SD, I have no desire to watch a movie in SD ever again. But I keep all of my Blu-rays in 4K Blu-rays, and I'll get, if I feel like it, I'll buy one here and there. Um, but I think that there is a counterculture that is pushing against that because despite what the, and I've said this on other podcasts, despite what we're supposed to believe, film the uh people are still going to the movie theaters. Are they going? Is it the same numbers we've always had? Uh apparently it's some of the as high as it's been. Um, I just don't know how and why they're measuring the metrics, but people are still going to the movie theaters. And like I said, when you see these little films, like every film that came out this past weekend did well. You know, and there was like two release, two new release, two or three new releases. They all did well, they all overperformed. The week before that, they overperformed. Now, are they making hundreds of millions of dollars? No, but I I don't think there's anything in the movie theater that should be making that kind of money right now, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:47

So well, listen, if this year doesn't act as defibulators to the film industry, I don't know what will. We have The Odyssey, Dune 3, Spider-Man, yeah, Spielberg's new movie. Like it this is the year to revive cinema if there ever was one. But just to like finish the thought I was I was sharing is like the I do think we have an expectation of what film should be and what going to the theater looks like based off of nostalgia and our experiences growing up, and an other generation's experience is going to the theater, seeing Jaws, Rocky, Star Wars for the first time, a blockbuster going in a big cinema in a packed house. But that we also have to recognize the film is a very young art medium, it's the youngest one. And so to have an expectation of what consuming that art looks like is kind of ridiculous considering that it's still evolving and growing and audiences are changing. And so I think while one, yes, we should still go to the theater, communal experience is like going to church, and I believe that is one of the best ways to worship movies. I think also we need to go in with an open mind and recognize that maybe this isn't the pinnacle of the film experience, and perhaps there is another level to which we're not exploring because we're clinging on to old models. Meaning the way Undertone marketed their movie is so cool. I was like, oh my god, influencers are talking about this. They're doing live interactive displays, the directors going on not only TV shows, but they're or or like you know, like e talk and CTV, but they're also doing these weird interactive horror experiences. That stuff to me is the future of how this stuff is working. Yeah. And we have legacy and traditional ways and models that we're clinging on to. I I've I don't know, for the sake of we don't want something to die, but by doing so, I think we're killing the medium. And we need to recognize that TikTokers and YouTubers and a new generation of creatives are onto something, and this might not kill the industry, but yet give it those defibulators that it needs. And perhaps there's a blend of like what I talked about at the beginning of this, a hybrid mix of both, to which we have to adapt into this next era of storytelling.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

Yeah, and I think it also comes down to quality too, and not and and quality storytelling, and it's something that we definitely get a huge lack of these days, right? It's like, and I think even the even Jen Alpha is recognizing that, which is why they go back to our movies from the 90s and the 80s, and they're like, why don't movies nowadays feel as like complete as these do? Like, I think that goes back to my point of people going back to the movie theaters um and actually appreciating movies in movie theaters is because they're like, Net are we really banking on Netflix being the future of cinema? It's like no one can name one movie that Netflix has made that is like quotable or uh is any part of the general zeitgeist of the population, right? Like everyone and Amazon too. It's like Amazon released a movie with uh Jason. Mamoa and um Dave Batista, right? And it's serviceable, but it is fucking forgettable. And I think that keeps happening. So I think every especially the young kids who consume all of this the most, right? They're the biggest demographic, the 1835. They're the ones that we're uh we're banking on. And they see that they see that stuff. They're like, listen, we're not gonna Jeff Bezos and Ted Serandos are not the future of cinema. Like we're gonna devote to actual filmmakers who make actual movies that we like. And uh and that's and I think that's giving them the boost up. And like I said, I think once you start making films that are good again, like I had the I had the thing on Instagram about the past Oscars, like the the one that just happened on Sunday. It's now Wednesday uh wait, was it Wednesday or Thursday? Anyway, yeah, it's Wednesday. So the past Sunday, the Oscars just happened, and what films did well and what films didn't. It's all the ones like all the films that did well are all the ones that did good at the box office. People actually liked, people actually went to see uh some original IP, not a lot of sequels or anything. Yeah, one battle after another is a quote unquote adapted screenplay. But uh, and then all the ones that sort of fell flat, right? Are the ones that were Oscar bait and tried really hard to win awards, and you know, audiences were just like, no, we're done with that. Like we want, we want to go back to the movie theater to have a good time. Like, we don't want to feel bad. We're done with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:29

Dude, I I totally, yeah, and I'm so glad you said that. And I'm I hated the fact that you know, you saw these Oscar Beatty. I hate watching people lose, especially those who think they're gonna win. Um, I know that I'm uh opposite to a lot of people, but I you know, I actually felt for Timmy, I felt for uh Hamnet, you know, I felt for these movies that we thought were gonna clean up and they didn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:50

Um but I also love the actress from Hamnet won. So, you know, it wasn't a complete, it wasn't a complete loss.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:58

But you know, I I I also think that we don't need to make movies to win Oscars. They don't have to be movies of people screaming the entire time or crying or being assholes the entire film for us to have an enjoyable movie experience. Yeah. We just you know, the people with the money think that that's what we want. And I will quote uh Matt Johnson here because he said this last night at his QA, and I I've been thinking about it all day, which is we just have to follow our curiosity, and that will lead us to the best art. It's not following what uh prior metrics work and thinking of oh, well, how will this be marketed in this country and what you know will Netflix think of this and all that? That really dilutes the creative process, but curiosity speaks to what humans are feeling. But the movies that are succeeding at the box office, like Sinners, scratched not only Ryan Kugler's curiosity, but also an audience. What if you had vampires in this era and we we brought in soul music part of that? That's an interesting curiosity, same as Undertone. What if you made a horror film that actually had no gore in it and was just audio? What if you made a feature film around two buddies uh based off a web series that's very niche? Um, and these random curiosities scratched an audience's excitement more than what is Thor going to do with the Hulk.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:26

And I think it's really exciting to see that. And I hope that movies start going more into the weird and bold, because that's how we get Star Wars. Um, and I think we're we're much less like lacking a lot in the weird curiosity originality world, and really trying to check boxes off of what past metrics work, not only with like American companies with like Disney and stuff, but also like what we were talking about with Canadian films. It really feels like the stuff we're making is just the stuff we should be making, not the stuff that scratches a curiosity like Undertone.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:00

Well, it's really funny. I I have two points on that. One, I think that's I like I liked Marty Supreme, but it did exactly what you're talking about. It was that they were though I could predict how that movie was gonna go, and it almost went like beat for beat how it went. And that I think that was a problem because I I was losing interest because I'm like, okay, it's clearly an asshole. Clearly, he's not going uh the the main character is an asshole. So clearly he's not going to get exactly what he wants at the very end. And and that's it almost like spoiler, that's kind of how that movie plays out in the end. And it was a film I liked, but it definitely didn't come anywhere close to you know the game-changing performance with Adam Sandler in Uncut Gems, or right? It was all very, it was all very like paint by numbers. Hey, I'm trying to make an intense Scorsese movie in a different era, but it's about table tennis. Isn't it wild? And I was like, well, you know what?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:59

I I have a controversial opinion. I felt the same way about Hamnet. Interesting. I feel like I was supposed I felt like I was supposed to like it. And and I was disappointed with it, maybe because I went in with a different intention, but I felt what most people felt around Marty Supreme with Hamnet, where I felt it it the essence of it was we're going for an Oscar. Right. This movie is intense, someone is screaming and crying, and we're dealing with very traumatic material. And perhaps it was a curiosity of the director, and I've heard her talk about it, so like who am I to judge? But I for me, uh that's the way I felt. I'm like, I should feel from this movie, and I almost got a weird vibe from it. The same as what you're saying with uh Marty Supreme.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:43

Yeah, I I think I probably enjoyed Marty Supreme more than you enjoyed Hamnet, but overall, I was just it, I I was just jumping off the point that you said about curiosity. And uh just to piggyback off that a little bit, so I took my daughter to see Hoppers over the weekend, which is another at Pixar Child's movie, and it was so subversive. And like I kept thinking it was gonna go this direction, and then it would go in this weird direction, and I couldn't believe that how many chances that movie was taking. Um, it reminded me of like the early Toy Story movies. Like to go back to what you're saying, it's like I've I've had to watch a lot of animated movies and a lot of um, you know, kids' movies, especially these past couple of years. So, and I try and focus on the good ones because I don't want to waste my time with the crap. Um, but I was so surprised, like I said to my, I said to my wife after I said, that might be the best Pixar movie I think I've seen since like Toy Story 3 or something. Come on. And that's going back 16 years, just because it was there were so many weird moments where I was like, I was like, what? Like that's such an adult idea to do in a kid's movie, but they're doing like it just took so many more chances, especially with kids watching. Like, there's a moment or two where I look, I was like, I don't know. I think it's okay for her to be watching this, but it's a I and I was kind of happy that I was like starting to feel a little bit nervous. And because you know, all the other ones I've seen with like Elemental and Leo or uh Leo and like all these other ones, it's just dull uh what you're describing, right? It's like exactly what you think they're going to be, and that's fine, but I was really like A, I was laughing my ass off during uh like the second half of Hoppers nonstop. And then B, I was just so happy and impressed with the chances that they were taking. And you know, not to I obviously just want best animated feature, but my kid is obsessed with K-pop demon hunters. And when we finally watched it, and we watched it with her, I was like, Yeah, I'm like, this is this is utterly incredible. And again, it was like completely took so many chances, did its own thing, like really marked its own territory. And you can't like you can't do anything but succumb to the fact I was like, Yeah, it's it it's goddamn incredible. Like, what are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:07

And it's so funny because other than kids, like for at least me, I went into it with no one telling me it was a life-changing movie. Right. Yet Hamnet, Marty Supreme, all these Oscar Beatty movies, right? People are like, these are good. Yeah, you're gonna love this. And K-pop demon hunters, like, I was like, oh, like my you know, my friend's nephew likes it, but that's it, or niece or nephew really like it, but that's it. And then when I watched them, like, this movie has no business being this good for adults, yeah. And and it's so like bold and creative, and you can tell the creatives behind it spent similar to like when you watch the first Toy Story, you can tell people didn't just spend a year on this, like it's been you know, half a decade working on this project, and it's nice to feel respected as an audience too. Yeah, and I think like you know, in an era of us being afraid of AI, humans will always want to watch other humans achieve excellence and do the very best they can. That's why there's no category at the Olympics for robots. We would have even if robots would be interesting to watch, we have zero interest in seeing them win or lose. Because we want to see us win or lose. And I kind of thought that when I was I went to Cirque du Soleil, I'm watching these you know performers, these crazy things, and I'm like, wait, if I saw robots do this, I remember seeing like the Spider-Man animatronic at Disneyland doing that, uh he's doing like a cool flip thing. I'm like, the equivalent would be nothing because there's no stakes, there's no awe, there's no relatability. And so watching something like K-bop Demon Hunters uh or Hoppers, those movies, even though they're animated, even though there's not a real human in it other than the voices, you can tell that uh the blood, sweat, and tears of artists were in that, and I really think that's going to define the future, um, so long as we like continue to put that in our projects and not just use cheat codes and metrics and understanding an audience through Netflix algorithms, uh, and really look at curiosity and what what we want to just try and um make better uh as far as the craft goes. And I I felt that very much so watching K-pop Demon Hunters, uh, and likewise with Nirvana's band show the movie, both those films. I'm like, wow, you could tell people really tried hard on this.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:31

Um audiences will uh you know give like they will reward you for that. You know what I mean? Like that's that's the thing at the end of the day that everyone needs to understand. It's like you can you can do the paint by numbers safe thing all day, and you know, you play it safe, but audiences will like if you do it from a real place and you take swings, you know. So I I I actually watched a retro um a look back on the Matrix trilogy, right? And obviously everyone considers the sequels subpart of the first one, you know. I think that's not debatable, but yeah, those sequels, especially the second one, made an insane amount of money. Like I only saw the Matrix once, but I saw reloaded, I think I ended up seeing three times because I was in high school at the time. And I recognize even then that it's an inferior movie to the first. But what this um this person that was talking about, the films, he said, he goes, listen, we can hate on the sequels all we want, but they took swings. They took they did not play, they did not play it safe at all. They didn't try and retell the story, they didn't try and like, you know, you could argue maybe the third one started to get a little like uh generic, more it was a little more derivative. But the second one, it was like, man, you guys are really going for something here. And you know, uh they were rewarded financially, you know. It made that's reloaded, made a lot of money. But um, but obviously in in hindsight, everyone considers it uh not as good as the first one.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:12

But it also has a pretty big shadow to live in.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:15

Yes, yes, the one of the biggest. And uh it still has people like me that like huge, huge parts of it. Like I'll still watch it uh at any point, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:25

Um but it's oh man, the scene with the architect, like that just like to me is like one of the greatest movie you know, philosophical thoughts ever in a film. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:34

But it's it's like I said, it's just to have the expectation of the first one and then to pull off stuff like that, it's like, all right, man, like you're really you're really trying to go for something here, and you know, uh but again, like I said, I think audiences will always reward, well not always, but try and reward people who come from those real places. But at the same time, and this goes right back to everything that we've been talking about, you still need proper marketing, you still need to uh advertise the film in a right, you know, in a good way. Yes, word of mouth always helps, and we'll get a film over certain finish lines, but you really need that strong marketing to help push that forward, how whatever that looks like, whether you're making a small movie like you and I do with Sway and the stuff I do, or you know, you have a hundred, two hundred million dollar uh blockbuster. And uh to bring it all back home, I think exactly what you guys did specifically with Sway, like you know, that movie was everywhere, uh, especially leading up to that release that you guys did. I guess it was in January, right? Or February, I can't remember.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:40

Um one of those months.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:43

Yeah. But you you were uh going up to that month, and you guys did such a good uh job pushing it that obviously helped get butts in seats. Um and I think you know you utilized all the new technology that we gotta be that we gotta be doing in the way of thinking about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:00

I think so, man. And I think leaning into current technology and really like the the big lesson I I've learned throughout all of this is like no one cares. And as much as you care and think someone cares, no one cares. Um you have you think like, oh, you know, I posted about my movie like 12 times this week. Like people are getting sick and tired. And then one of your close friends will be like, hey, so like when is your movie coming out? And you're like, bro, I've been posting about it every wait, what? And so I think like just knowing that that's part of the problem, like you're not annoying anybody by posting about your movie, because if you've posted it 12 times, chances are your best friends maybe seen it once. Yeah, and the amount of times close friends to me have been like, Hey, where can I find sway? Yeah, I'm like, well, shit, I've said it in every YouTube video, Instagram posts, it's in my bio. Like, what else do you want from me? Um I think that's an indicator that the the social media strategy is excellent, it's very flooded, so you do just have to go at it from all angles. And if you have a concept that your cast and crew can rally behind and you can really encourage them to post about it, that's gonna be able to get an audience from all angles. Yeah. Um, and then that with traditional marketing. But I it to me, it's hard to gauge what traditional marketing, how effective it is now. And I really learned from seeing what both the two greatest Canadian exports of this year have been, uh Nirvana the Band and Undertone, both of them leaned heavily into the social media aspect. Yeah. Going on podcasts, different YouTuber shows, getting, and it wasn't a lot of them that I was seeing weren't even million plus subscriber channels. It was the smaller channels because what they knew is they could get quantity uh over quality. And if a quantity of people are talking, that almost overrides the the the the big you know mecca channels. If you got one or two big channels, that's great, but if you got thousands of tiny voices, that's that's huge. If you have a thousand you know, true fans, that's what's gonna get your movie going. And I think moving forward with our next project, that's exactly how I want to take it. Um, and not strive for uh I'm just gonna inject just one other th philosophy about this stuff and then we can wrap it up. Yeah. But I the you know, there's a legacy way of thinking about your film's final footprint, which is I think more ego-driven, where you think, oh, I want to get on Netflix, I want to play at Cineplex, I want to uh go to Sundance because you want maybe your parents or your younger self or maybe some of your friends to be like, oh, they did it. Yeah. Um you want that pat on the back. But looking at example, and I it's a horrible example, but looking at someone like Mr. Beast on YouTube, he's someone who has built an entire career out of never needing Amazon Prime, you know, or needing a Netflix. Yeah. He is a successful creative by following what was um current, and then Amazon Prime needed him. And so I think these accolades that we try to achieve can sometimes be distractions, and going with what is the current interest, like social media or the current platform, which might be your own, is where things can go. And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter that you get Sundance on your poster or Netflix on the title card. It matters, or at least for me, it doesn't matter about those things. What matters is who watched it and how many people watched it. And did I affect anybody? Um, as far as like the the ego-driven output, the biggest output for me is really, or input for me is uh, you know, am I proud of this? And then the external validation are are the are are eyeballs, not platforms.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:59

Yeah, and I think like I the thing too for me is that I actually enjoy doing most of this. Like I hate posting on social media, I don't even really enjoy social media on any real level. If I could lose it, that that would be better. Well, I like keeping up with friends, but that's basically it. And I think like, but I also don't mind like doing what I'm doing right now, and I'm talking to you. It's like this is great because you and I don't even think you and I have ever even had a 90-minute conversation before. So the fact that we get to do this, you know, with some wisdom behind our eyes now, and you know, uh some experience behind us as well, and we get to sit down and talk like talk this way as if we're like Shaq and Kobe or something, right? Like looking back. Um, I think that's really great. And you know, I've got a chance to talk to other filmmakers and I've talked uh about other films. Like I really enjoy this aspect of doing it. Marketing and going through and making clips and you know, putting the right hashtags and tagging the right people, like that stuff is so exhausting. And I, you know, I have the imposter syndrome that you do too, where I go, you know, I'm like, people are gonna get sick of me. And it's like the reality is probably not, but even if they do, it's like you don't really have a choice. Like, especially in today's world, you just gotta move forward. Like no one else, the cavalry isn't coming to like take care of all of this stuff for you. Like, no one believes in you as much as you have to believe in yourself, right? So you just gotta go out and do it. And I I really felt that when I started um when my last film, Last Gnome Backup, you know, went on Film Hub and then got into Tubi. It's like no one else is promoting this. So and yeah, I only make money if people watch it. Like, there's no other way for me to make money. It's all uh ad revenues, it's AVOD. So it's all uh just how many people are watching it, that's how much money you're gonna make. So then I had to really understand like, oh, I gotta actually promote this film and I gotta put stuff together and I gotta do it myself. Unfortunately, I'm an editor, but I don't know marketing that well, so I have to kind of figure that, especially digital marketing. And then on top of it, I shot this movie in May uh uh last year, and now that's coming around, back pay that I gotta, you know, once that drops, I have to like drop that, unless it gets some uh sweetheart deal and they take it over and they have their whole ecosystem. But likely I'm going to have to be the one that promotes it uh where and whatever happens to it and wherever it goes. So I think I think you're touching on all those certain points that a lot of people, if you want to be a filmmaker that actually has success, uh at least at the beginning, and doesn't have some golden elevator ticket with their film where someone grabs and takes care of it, you have to do this stuff and you have to get smart about it as well. And there's a lot of young guns that are doing this way better than even you and I are, right? Like coming up that understand TikTok and social media much better than we do. So yeah, I'm a 40-year-old guy that's trying to keep up with them, and I'm gonna lose anyway, so I might as well go down swinging.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:56

Man, I I mean I I wouldn't sell yourself short, and I I do think that I've seen your stuff, man. You're you're very much up to date with um your creative choices in the movies that you're making, and I think the angles that you're taking. Um, I do want to let you know that my camera died while you were talking there. So there's gonna be a weird sync thing. I just changed the battery.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:17

Yeah, yeah, no sweat. So uh why don't why don't we wrap it up then? I let's let's uh tell me what you're working on now. What are you so you are with Charlie on this next project?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:29

Yeah, so the next project that we're making is a feature film that follows a memory loss virus. Okay. And the angle that we're gonna take is that hybrid style. Uh Charlie is the writer on the project. Um, I'll be directing, and then Jacqueline DeSantos, my fiance and creative partner, is also producing and acting in the film. Oh great. Yeah, it'll be fun. It's um we're we're probably gonna take that undertone approach where we're gonna do a little self financing. A little extra financing from external companies and do the sway approach where no matter what we're gonna make the movie, whether or not we have the approval of a studio or not, and uh just try and get that film out there. So yeah, uh we're we're hopping into a horror um next. That's kind of like a Christopher Nolan-y horror film.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:21

And can you say the name of it? Is it is it even worth mentioning the name yet?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:25

I mean, uh we right now the title is The Fade, and that's what we're living with. Um, as you know, when you make projects, titles change. Yeah. But that's the one we're going for, and hopefully we can stick to that because I really like it.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:38

That's awesome. Well, Zach, this has been incredible. I'm so glad we got to do this. You know, this this is the this was years in the making, I think. You and I having this sit-down conversation. Uh and no, I'm not gonna take back the fact that I called this Shaq and Kobe and our uh sit-down chat. Uh so I yeah, I really enjoyed talking to you and I love what you're doing. I think uh it's really smart. And the fact that you're educating a lot of independent filmmakers out there with your vlog, I think that's also super important. I I think I watch everything that you put out, so uh, you know, it's compelling stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:11

Oh, thanks, man. I I think it's for me, filmmaking is a little journal entry of where you're at um as a creative, and the fact that I can have behind the scenes talking about that only solidifies that journal entry and makes it more impactful when I look back on the stuff. So the fact that other people can learn or gain things from that is awesome. And I really appreciate you following along that journey, man. It's so cool that we both have kind of been two little seeds that have sprouted from the same industry, and now we're both making our own projects. And uh the fact that we have not had a 90-minute conversation at a bar or at some film event is ridiculous to me. Um, but in true fashion, we're doing it in front of cameras and on microphones, which almost a hundred kilometers away from each other, or like or 50 or wherever you are. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, no, I think it's a hundred kilometers for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:05

Well, man, I I really appreciate it. And uh, so I think I'll wrap it up there. Uh so check out Zach Ramelon, he's all over YouTube. Check out uh all of his videos and check out Sway wherever you can. Uh it's online. Um, as you said, it's on Apple TV. And if you're on in the US, I believe it's on Tubi as well. So wherever you can check it out, uh check out Sway. So that's Zach Ramalon. And uh yeah, I appreciate all of you guys listening. This has been the Film Element Podcast. If you like what you heard, like, subscribe, uh, comment, even if it's crappy. I don't care. Just say whatever. Uh engagement, you know, I gotta engage the algorithm for our droid army overlords. So much appreciated. Thank you.