Sixth Episode of Brothers and Sisters from March 8, 2026

Deconstructing Leaving the Mormon church, mundane issues, issues of sexuality, and family matters discussed.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Okay. All right. Hello, Paula. Welcome back.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

I liked being with you last week. That was fun being right next to you.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I gotta start getting stuff posted up to the hosting site.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

So yeah, I'm gonna have to um come do that again. So I wish you could see where we are. First of all, we're in Florida and we're at a resort that um is clothing, uh it's not even optional, it's a nudist resort. So there are certain places when you're here that you have to be naked, like if you go to the swimming pool or whatever, just around your house. They don't care if you're, you know, like out and about in the community, they don't care like if you're clothed or unclothed, but they want it to be a place where nudists feel safe to be nude, which is kind of a weird, you know, like that's uh that's the other side of the coin that from where we were at, where you had to be completely, completely covered in order to feel safe. But um here, here it's uh clothing optional, and what I love about it is it really has helped me accept myself and my own body. Like I am not hideous like I thought I was, because um there's plenty of people here that you know are just regular people. It's it's really an it's really a nice way to kind of relax. But what I'd love to show you is Evelyn's space. Now, Evelyn is an erotic educator, and we're staying here for three weeks with her in her um couple's room, and what she's gonna start to offer um with some of her um goddess friends is um some erotic education around what happens to you sexually inside of a high demand religion, and then once you leave that high demand religion, what you can do about your sexuality to try and figure it out. Because a lot of times, when um you start a high-demand religion when you're not married, and you get married inside that high demand religion, if you get divorced, say one of you still believes, one of you doesn't, and that's a huge problem. Say both of you leave, but you don't really know what to do with your sexuality. What if you're a single girl like I was for so long, who never discovered her sexuality because I was, you know, shamed to do so by my church. Um, she's really talking about like how to uh kind of deal with all of these issues in your life. She's she's in her 80s, she's um an amazing woman, but she's got all of these certifications from like all of the people that she's worked with. She's really, really well known in both um both the people who are um at the psychiatric educated level, they all know her, and then all the people who are like the providers who provide those kind of experiences for people, um, they're they call the people who are educated the talking heads because they're the ones that can get out and and talk about it, but they can't really do anything to help you figure it out, you know. Um, and that's where people like Evelyn come in and and her friends, and so they're gonna start offering these workshops. Um, and I'm gonna try and um get them some uh exposure to at least the ex-Mormon world. They're here in Florida, so there's a plenty of high-demand, you know, Christian nationalists that who are seeing the uh errors in their thinking um and are leaving their churches. And so um, there's a lot of need right now around this area because people are trying to figure it out, and there's no one out there that's really talking about this issue. We talk about, you know, and I I think it's directly tied to what's going on in in Christianity with all of the mega church pastors having affairs, all of the, you know, all of the hypocrisy that happens there, and with the problem with child abuse and paedophilia. Pedophilia? Is that how you say it? Um I think it's a it's a great way to to kind of educate people. I I think that we need some education, and that's what church keeps you away from is the education piece of it.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

So are you saying you can leave a high demand religion with a high demand? Do you hear me?

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Your volume is down. Can I leave a high demand religion?

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Uh so what happened with me is what I'm saying is you can leave a high demand religion, but they still might be calling the shots with your sexuality.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Right, because it's how you learned about it, right? And it's what your parents taught you, and it's what you learned in school or in Sunday school or in young women's if you're if you're a Mormon girl. Um, you you get all your foundation from a place that's telling you how to be sexually unhealthy. And what we need is some education on how to become sexually healthy as as full humans, as a hundred percent completely human.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Yeah. So those sauces, those sausages don't melt away automatically.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

I don't know. Did they do did they melt away for you?

SPEAKER_00 5:18

No. I the the I have a concern though. Well how do you how do you get the religious leaders permission to run these workshops?

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Yeah. There, you know what's funny is at least in my work, what I found is a lot of the religious leaders are coming to they know they have issues, yeah, of their own that they know that they have. And so they have them. They know they have to know that their parishioners have it too. You know, I I just think the reason that um I want to do what we're gonna do today, and that is I'm gonna go on quit.org while we're on this podcast and fill out my paperwork.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

I was not going to so what are you quitting? What are you quitting?

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Quit quit what is a website that you um get on if you want to quit the Mormon church. And I was not going to do that because our mother is still alive, and I desperately, you know, don't want to disappoint her. I really didn't want her to feel like she was a failure. But last week I was home and she asked me point blank about my religious affiliation, you know, what's what how often I was going to the temple because I'm, you know, Mormon. Um, if I was wearing my holy underwear, she asked me both those questions, and I did not want to lie to her. You know, I don't I'll keep things from her, but I don't want to bold face, you know, because she's not a dumb woman, right? And she's figured it out.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Yeah. There and there's something about not letting her call the shots because it would quote unquote affect her. Right. And then not and not put yourself in that equation at all. Because doesn't how it affect you matter more than how it affects some someone else?

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Aren't you aren't you the central person in your life?

SPEAKER_01 7:03

The the piece, and and I I agree with that, and I think that that's a healthy way to look at it. Though what I was worried about is that, you know, our mom and dad, you know, dad was bishop for most of my growing up years, right? Um, and mom was kind of subservient to all of that. And then she nursed dad back to health after 20 years after his strokes and really did everything for him in the end, you know, everything for him in the end. And of her children, I don't know one of us that really has a testimony anymore. Now, some of them are still, you know, on the rolls of the church, but at least four of us have completely left the church, four of the six of us. And and I did not want her dying because she's you know of that age, feeling like she was a failure as a mother, because that was her only job in Mormonism, was to raise righteous children. And I just didn't want her to feel like a failure. But I also don't want to lie, and I don't want to lie to myself, but I don't want to lie to her, especially. And so um, when she asked, I told her the truth that I no longer believe. I explained kind of what happened, how I came to those conclusions, um, what I had read, and then um I just talked to her a lot about it. And it's interesting because she and I are talking more about real things, we're not in the ethereal so much anymore. We aren't, you know, in the celestial kingdom, we're not what happens after this life, we're more grounded onto what happens here on earth. And I had a friend who told me when I told him what was going on in my life, and I told him I didn't want to tell my mother. He said, if you do, you have to be prepared that this will be more of a help to her than a hurt to her. And really, our minds are so good at tricking us into thinking that what we're doing is wrong, what we are doing won't work, what we are doing, you know, like all the negative self-talk comes into play. And really, I think um I've been blessed to have an outlook of I'm gonna make these changes and life is gonna work out because it really usually always does.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

I'll I'll hurt myself or not be my true authentic self in public to help someone else.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Right. And that's that's no place to be as a human, that's no place to be as a 63-year-old woman. That's no place to be, and especially when you see all of the harm that the church is causing people right now.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah, I want to argue, I wanna I'm gonna argue a little bit. I think you said I don't have a testimony. I do have a testimony, and I want to testify that the truth claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are patently false. And it's a knowing and cynical fraud. And I'll stand up in court and testify to that. I have a burning testimony to how I was systematically deceived. And I'm not willing to shut up about it anymore. And why is it because it makes some old white men uncomfortable or some sweet grandma uncomfortable? That's just too bad. Let the chips fall where they may, speak the truth.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Well, this is the truth that has come to me, like smacked me in the face today, is that if the Mormon church has a prophet who is speaking to God, where in the hell is he about all this stuff that's going on in the world today, especially with Iran and how out of control our government is, because we are trying to acquiesce to, you know, Christian nationalism. It's terrible. Where is the prophet? Where is God? If he knows that he speaks with God and God is silent, he should say that. If he knows that he speaks with God and God has nothing to say, like what does that mean about God? If he is the mouthperson for God, he needs to speak up. And I'm calling on him right now because he is a constitutional expert. He knows that what's going on is wrong. He knows what's going on is evil, he knows what's going on is not gonna do anything but potentially drive us towards nuclear annihilation. And I'm not even kidding when I say that, Thane. I'm really, really afraid of what's gonna happen to the world. And it's people like Dallana Jokes, who is the prophet of the Mormon church, who they say speaks to God, he needs to speak up now and tell us what the fuck is going on. Because there's no guidance from the top other than pay your tithing, have faith, keep your family strong while the world is falling apart at our at our feet.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

The the the church is quick to give lip service to revelation and the church being practical until an actual need comes up in the wild.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Well, that's what we find in our personal lives, right? Yeah, and then and then we can't help you with that because that's have a real problem, like nuclear bombs or your sexuality or your marriage, or you know, or real money problems, and then they're no there's no help, there's no answers for that. There's no answers because no one is really speaking to God. No one is speaking to God, Thane, and no one should have the hubris. So did I say that right? The narcissism to say that they stand between me and the power of the universe. Who are they to say that they know what that is and what that is for me? It's it's very narcissistic. And I just I I can't stand people giving up their power, giving up their freedom, giving up their free will for something that is really just a really bad telling of a Christian story.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Yeah, it's a con job.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

Yeah, it's sad. So I'm gonna um go to quitmormon.com.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Okay. Is it dot com or dot org or dot org?

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Quitmormon.org. No, calm.com. Oh, that was the voice from behind. Quitmormon.com. Okay. So it says, ready to leave the Mormon Church? Question mark. Resigning from the Mormon Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, can be a tedious, especially saying their name, and painful process. If you've decided that you are no longer wanting to be a member of the church, resigning on your own can result in unwanted contact from church leaders and a multiple and multi multiple requests before your resignation is finally processed. We provide a free service that lets you resign without the hassle. So you can um resign. Crawl. He crawled. Yeah. That was Larry. He left the bathroom because he just took a shower.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

His back was causing him problems.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

No, no, did you see him crawl?

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Yeah, I thought, oh, his back is still really bad.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Both you thank you for that. Uh so he said that he didn't want to be seen, so he crawled. That's hilarious. And then you see him crawling across the floor with his back.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

It's a lot, it's a lot more dramatic that way.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Some kind of sex mistress or something. That's hilarious. I'm anatrix. Um, so there's two buttons that you can push resign or donate. And this is um a free service, um, but they do ask for donations, which I think they completely deserve because it's expensive to hire a lawyer, and this guy does it out of the goodness of his heart, which is just uh amazing. People are amazing, and that's what you start to learn when you leave, because they drill to you.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

I I I I don't need an organization putting me into shame to be a good person.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Right. So um then it says, why does this exist? We are not attempting to influence anyone to leave the church. However, if you have decided that you want to resign, using quit Mormon eliminates most or all contact and gets you resigned much quicker than resigning on your own.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

However, that was my experience.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

However, uh, someone that I live with has also submitted his paperwork a long time ago and it has not he has not heard back from them. So I don't know if there's a glitch in the system or if it's just because he had such a career with the church that I you know I don't know what the deal is.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

They're gonna count they're gonna counter to him to force him to stay in.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

They don't want us there anymore. I I'm not a good spirit in church anymore.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

But it hurts it, it hurts their feelings that they're not kicking you out and that you're walking away. Yeah, that you took out the you're you're taking control and they're not in the driver's sheet, and it really irritates these control freaks to no end.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Like, how dare you quit quit without us?

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Yeah, we we will we can only kick you out. You can't just quit. That's not right.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Okay, so then you have to put in your um you have to sign into your account. I'm in an account with my email address and then the password. Um save that. Well, it didn't take me anywhere. Oh, here it is. Add my resignation. So I um in my queue it says my resignations right now. I'm at zero, but I'm gonna um create one. I am resigning myself. It says, are you resigning yourself or for another person? I'm resigning myself. Are you an adult in your state and country? Yes, I'm an adult by a few years. I I disagree, I disagree because you're my brother. Um, you have to give your first name. She's my sister. I'm Paula Lynn. My last name is Austin. Putting that in. My birthday, she was born in 1962 September. I'm a Virgo. Which went really well when I was a virgin because a O2 second. Okay, membership number is optional. I have no idea what my membership number is because I didn't even realize that you were tracked that closely with your membership number, but you kind of are. Um address. We will never send your physical you physical mail. So they don't want your spouse, I guess, to be able to find it in the mailbox, which would be a really sad way to do this. Um, we have never had a report of the church making anything as mailing anything as a result of the resignation process. So they don't control what the church can send you, but they it's not typical. Um, please do not submit support tickets with alternate addresses. We don't need it. Okay, your address is used to locate, verify your membership record, and that's where our membership records are, is in South Jordan where we live. Um, I live in America. America United States my address in here.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

One of the things that was hard for me to check was I'm I'm resigning and I've not committed any grave sin.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

You know, you make that attestation and it's like oh, I didn't know I had to attest to it, because now I've I've had some big sins.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

So but but you know who gets you to define that, Paula?

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Me.

unknown 19:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

So no, you haven't.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Come on. I get to, I get to see how it really feels to me. Um, so this is a resignation from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Um, today's March 8th, 2026. It has my birthday, it has my address on it. It's um the memory members record division of the LDS Church, which is on North Temple, to whom it may concern. This letter is to inform you that I have terminated my membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Freedom.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

That's 63 years of really trying. And then putting all the hours and hours and hours of service and learning and you know, dedication and prayers and fasting.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

How long did you stay a virgin?

SPEAKER_01 20:44

40 years of virginity. Yeah. Okay, please remove my name from the records of the ODS Church immediately. I understand that the withdrawal of my name cancels the effective baptism and removes any priesthood or temple blessings.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Oh, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Pretend I really yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Yeah, yeah. That's informed consent, but it's all goofy and pretend stuff anyway.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Well, it's it's not it wasn't informed consent. I had no idea what before I went into.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

No, no, this lawyer, this lawyer is giving you that information. I see. At this point, he's giving you inform you've never had it in your life before, but now you're getting it.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Now you're getting real information from a real lawyer. I will not participate in church disciplinary councils where I have done nothing wrong and I have uh no unresolved transgressions. Even if I did, who the fuck are they to at this point try and judge me for it?

SPEAKER_00 21:41

You get to make that declaration, and it's a legally binding declaration. I do not trust me, they have done things far worse than you have, and they declare the same.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Yeah, exactly. And they declared their hands are full uh are free, even though they have to pay a $250 million fine for financial. Complete misdeeds, not just a little mistake, not just a little error in their thinking. They were hiding tithing mem money.

unknown 22:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Um, I do not want to be contacted by anyone acting on behalf of the church. This includes bishops, ministering brothers and sisters, and anyone else. Does that mean that I get to stop getting those Relief Society reminders on my front porch every month? Um I depend on You can only hope.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

You can only hope.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Yeah, it depends on how good the members are about respecting it. Um, I demand that you remove my name completely from your records within five business days of receipt of this notice, and I will consider my resignation completed at that time. So it's interesting that here in the United States, they don't erase your digital record. In France, they're having fights right now. And um our my my nephew Matt is kind of spearheading some of that for himself because they have much higher um data privacy laws there than we have here. So there they're legally required to remove you if you ask to be removed from a database. In America, it's don't remove you from the database. So you're still in there, you're just marked as do not contact.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

We we don't have the right to be forgotten like they do in France.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Right. And they that's that's a huge misstep, I think, not just for religion, but for anything digital in this world. I I think that we need to look at that model as Americans and say, you know, I think there's some real merit to it. Um I am represented by Mark Noggle. Is that how you think you say it? And request that all communication go through his office. I authorize Mark to act as my agent in all communication with your organization and its attorneys. Signed Paula Austin. So I'm gonna um print this out right now. And then I'm gonna take it down. We're in a condo association right here, and we just checked, and the lady is working today who's the notary, and I'm gonna go sign it and um get it notarized, signed and notarized same day.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

It's supposed to be a bigger, uh bigger obstacle than that. It's supposed to be a big speed bump, it's supposed to discourage you from being able to do this. How dare you get it done on the same day?

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Well, it's it was one page, really. Basically, it's one page. You click a couple of buttons, you put in your name and address. They don't even ask for your social security number. There's nothing that is gonna hurt your credit reporting. And and what it does for you, most importantly, is it gets rid of the entanglement, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:40

That's how you felt it to me, it was me taking power into my hands and calling the shots. I had let I'd sat back passively and let them take the steering wheel and call the shots, make declarations.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

And you were like the the the passenger in your own car.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Yeah, yeah. I was their whipping boy, and I decided I'm not gonna be their whipping boy anymore. I'm quitting, I'm making a declaration and up yours. Everybody should have a good forget you in their vocabulary. It's part of mental health to be able to say forget you. And I I declare that and I'm and I'm holding it, and I mean it.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

And and when I did that, and I felt how good that felt. Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

So I've said this on a few podcasts that I listened to, like just in the comments, and one time it got this huge reaction. It felt so good that it felt so good.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

It's like, you know what? I'm gonna figure out how I can join again. I want to go through this process again because that was a great feeling. I want to experience this again, again, again, again.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

I I I think that it if ever there was a time for our voices to be heard, it's now. Yeah. It's now, and it's the only way the church is going to get the message that people are serious, you know.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

I don't you know, I don't care if they get the message or not. It's not about them. Yeah, you're right. It's about me getting the message. And then you being I need to get the message, internalize it, take control. I own it. It's it's me, it's mine, it's my life, it's my decision, it's my call. I'm calling the shots in my life. I I'm sorry if that hurts any old white men's feelings in Salt Lake City.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Or any Pearl Cutching Grannies in the in the second row and sacrament meeting.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

I'm sorry for your loss, but I'm I'm gonna call the shots in my own life and let the chips fall where they may. And then compare my happiness to your happiness. Are you really are you really happy letting somebody else drive your car who doesn't have your best interest at heart?

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Yeah. Who doesn't even check the oil to see if it's you know they don't they really don't care about you. Yeah. It's that's the sad, sad truth. After all of the sacrifice and work and things that you learn, and you know, all of the hours of being Mormon, they don't give effort.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

No, my sisters care about me, my dad cared about me, my mom cared about me. They didn't always know the right thing to do. And we're a product of and we're a product of our environment and what we grow up in and what we marinate in. But the anybody like they used to say this, well, the members aren't perfect, but the organization is. And the reality, the reality is exactly the opposite. The members are golden, they're sweet, they're tender, good-hearted, solid people. But the organization is dark, corrupt and dark, and sinister, and corporate and unfeeling, and but they sure have a good commercial, purposely deceitful, purposely deceitful. And it's it is the exact opposite. It is the exact no, the people are wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

It's kind of like what happens today, because everything that like in my in my opinion, everything that Donald Trump says that you think is outrageous somehow is true. And the churches, yeah, they they kind of hide in plain sight that way, because they they point it out in others thinking that that it justifies their actions, and it just absolutely does not.

unknown 28:29

No.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

All right. Well, this is about you, and so I need to report back about the notary, and then do you scan it and send it in? Or yeah, you scan it.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Yeah, Larry's got an app on his telephone, on his phone that allows you to scan in a document. Um, you can do anything.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

And the no the notary still counts if it's scanned, it doesn't they don't have to feel it?

SPEAKER_01 28:53

No, it's you just have to have it notarized.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Okay, all right. I want to report back.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Okay, I'll let you know next week. It would be really hilarious if I get mine right away. They're like, We're glad to be done with you.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

We heard about you. We've been in those truck stop bathrooms. We know about you.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Saw your number on the wall. We know, yeah. So Larry's takes like five years to come through.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Well, he's a priesthood. It's a pre it's a priesthood.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

He he wants he wants his power back too, you know. Like he he's given his power away to way too many people for far too long. And it's that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

To cynical people without your best interest.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Yeah. And that's a hard thing to a realize about the people who you love, that they could do that to you.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Well, well, now Kate, now the people that I love are involved in this system, and the system does that to them. I don't I I I don't think there are many people. I can name a couple people on one hand that I think were complicit in in that. I'll I'll I'll I someday I may name a name a few names. I think we're good, but but 99% of the Mormons I grew up with were genuinely honest, good people.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

And trying really hard to be that.

unknown 30:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

That's what the rule the the rules went one way. Yeah, they they they they affected the members, uh, did not translate to the behavior um above a certain level. I don't know what that cutoff level was, but there's a certain level that the rules don't apply to us.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

An angel with the flaming sword told me to sleep with Fanny Elger. You didn't want me to be killed by that angel with a flaming sword, did you? For God.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

And if and if you don't sleep with me, the angel with the flaming sword will keep your whole family out of heaven forever.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Yeah, that's a nice family you've got. It'd be it'd be a shame if if I had to do something to this family that I know you want to keep together forever, right? Because you really love that family. It'd be a shame if something happened to that.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Wouldn't it wouldn't that be a shame?

SPEAKER_01 31:04

That's the the worst thing that we do, I think, is that no empty chair in the celestial kingdom, because it really pits families against each other, you know, the members inside the family. Because there's there's always gonna be the family member who speaks the truth, who becomes the black sheep, who they're the ones telling the truth.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Yeah. Well, you didn't want to resign because of how it would make mom feel, because that empty chair argument would hollow her heart out. Yes. But I would argue that not being true to yourself, if mom was aware, what would what hollows you out. But I would argue if mom was fully aware, it would hollow her out too. I believe mom wants you to be authentic and be yourself and be happy.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

I think so too, and that's how she's acted since she's found all this out.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

So that's my premise, and that's how I'm gonna and yeah, and you try and you trying to protect her may not have been protecting anything but the church.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

It and it infant infant infantilizes that's the word. It infantilizes her as well. Yeah, yeah, she's ready to not be an infant. No, no, she's ready to be a big girl.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Yeah, she she she doesn't need to be a helpless victim of the church any more than we do, any more than we need.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

I think she sees that you know, since data's gone, her status and power within the church is completely gone. She's she's just a little old widow that if you're kind to her, that's great. And if you're not, you know, if she goes to the hospital and is missing for two weeks, the ward doesn't need to check on you, you know, like she's in this really bad situation where she she too has given everything to the church and everything to her husband in the church, and she's looking at it like, uh, what was in that for me? You know, that's pathetically sad for that to happen to your mother. So I I'm hoping that we can continue to have talks and that we continue to to talk about real things and that she can continue to take some of her power back.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

That's what I'm hoping. Yeah, and retirees get double tithed.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

They get double tithed? Oh, because they're paying they're paying um not only on everything that they have saved, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:27

Right, they're saving post-tithing money, and then they go back and they access their money and they're paying tithing on the money they've already paid tithing on again.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yeah, not this last trip home, but the time before that, I saw mom's tithing check and it pissed me off. She's a pensioner, single woman, and she was writing a $700 and plus dollar check to the church for the month.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

Yeah, the widow's mic.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Okay. And I mean, she's lucky because she's got a great pension, right? And she's got the teacher's retirement from dad's professor jobs, and she's got you know, she's got some resource there, but she's not endlessly wealthy, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Well, now, uh in fairness to the church, they need to save up for when Jesus returns. He's gonna come back in power and glory, but he's gonna be broke, and we want him to come to Salt Lake City and not the Vatican to get a loan. So we have to have a bigger amount to reign on earth, right? So, and mom needs to finance that because a trillion dollars is not enough for a little organization like the Mormon Church. It just isn't well.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Somebody has to keep up financially with Elon Musk. So that's maybe that's we have to have as much money in the bank as the world's wealthiest man. I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

The church the church is much more discreet. But if your charity slush fund has $137 billion in it, you got some money.

SPEAKER_03 34:59

Yeah.

unknown 35:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

That's just one that's just one little side slush fund for your charitable activities. And I don't think that you don't that you don't spend on charity, but that's just one little side slush fund. You you you're hiding some money. There's a reason that they're so tight-lipped, and it's gonna cause fissure someday. It's gonna cause them to break from within. They're they've they've hoarded so much money, become so wealthy, it's been such a fantastically successful strategy uh for accumulating money, but that that that's gonna cause them stress to break. So that pile of money is now their precious, yeah, yeah, and it will it it will rot them from the inside and will cause schisms.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Because what is money really? I mean, I think it's how you use it, right? And if you're using it for good, but if you're hoarding it and it's just sitting there while people that are on your block are starving and living in the street.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Yeah, it it's it's what you love that matters, you know. So show me where your love is. And if your love is accumulating money, that will be your undoing. If you if you love other things and you love people and you have an interesting, balanced life, there's nothing wrong with accumulating money. But if that's the only thing you love, it will rot you from the inside out.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Well, and how do you really become a billionaire without without being dishonest? Yeah, without without not caring about other people's needs. You know, like you have to not pay your staff, you have to make your staff, if you're Walmart, you have to make your staff go on food stamps in order to, you know, survive. That's soulless. That is soulless. So much about what's happening in the world right now feels that way to me. And it just it scares me to death. And the funny thing is when I look at it, I think I don't even have any children to leave this behind to. Like, I don't have that worry of what's gonna happen to the world, what's gonna happen if I have daughters and they can't get an abortion if they have an eptopic pregnancy.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

You know, they bleed to death in the parking lot.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

I don't need to worry about those things, and yet I still worry about those things because I see how that they're they're gonna affect just everyday people. Real people, real people with real needs, with real lives, with real children, with you know, I I couldn't imagine having a house full of daughters and voting Republican. I couldn't imagine it. Because you're voting for your daughter to die in a parking lot.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

I I couldn't imagine having a wife that I loved.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

Oh man. Could you imagine if something happens?

SPEAKER_00 37:44

And and vote in voting Republican.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

For if you if you really if you really love the women in your life, how can you vote against their interests?

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Does how does that and it's not just abortion, right? It's it's getting a job, it's getting educated, it's having opportunities, it's all the it's being able to vote.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

They want to go back to where you can't get a credit card in your own name.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Uh when I bought my first house, I couldn't do it in my in my own name. I was Paula, whatever my last name was, a single woman. That's how the all the paperwork was written up. I wasn't just Paula, me. I had to be, I had to be shown as a single woman because I did not have a husband.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

And it's only recently that you even really have property rights anyway.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Or credit or credit rights or I don't think we realize that we don't. You know, I I or or how thin the margin is that we're keeping those rights right now and how quickly they could go away.

SPEAKER_02 38:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

By no wars regime. It just it it kills me.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

The whole thing kills me. So can can I put in an unsolicited plug for somebody's book? Sure, absolutely. I I have an internet crush on this gay couple. The guy's a humorist, he's a columnist in Salt Lake. You know him, don't you? He grew up in South George. I don't know him personally. Okay. He he's he's a good um, I don't know, 15, 20 years younger than I am, Eli McCann. He needs he's a lawyer and and a columnist. He works from home. His husband's a dermatologist, and they have a one and a half-year-old son. And they live in South Lake. Right. And he just published a book called Um We're Thankful for the Moisture. And it's such a sweet retelling of his Mormon upbringing and culture and how the eyes that he sees the world through. I've been listening through it on audiobook, and you get his husband's perspective who who grew up never Mormon.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Oh, that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Yeah. And it and it's like he he thinks that the open mic Sundays are really interesting, and we could make it even more interesting if we do this.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Open Mic Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

So let's it's it's it's an adorable book. And I I I endorse it. It's like it is and it's like he has plenty of reason to be bitter and angry to be told you're not a real person and you're an abomination because you're gay. But you know what? He doesn't even like it, just doesn't work for me. I had to be my true self, and I'm not and and I'm not upset about the game. And it's like, wow, that is some cold detachment.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

And that takes power back. That's absolutely saying, no, I am who I am.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Yeah, I have yourself.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

I'm not even gonna dignify it.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Right. I have happy memories of going to still stone cold creamery after priesthood meeting with my dad, um, you know, twice a year. And, you know, it's just the happy side.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

He's decided where he's gonna place that in his psyche. He's decided that it's not gonna be a huge burden, that it's good, it's a good bad.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

He had to go through some therapy to reconcile the you know, this Mormon stuff in his mind. But as far as I can tell, it's like he's at peace with it and he tells a great story, and it's really entertaining. We're thankful for the moisture. Check it out. Get it on Audible or hard copy.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

I found him on TikTok before we and then I said something to you about him because what he does is he does Mormon movie reviews, same guy.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

Yes. The film strips, remember the film strips?

SPEAKER_01 41:39

When he did oh, well, I can still quote most of the first vision. Safe or damned without faith, it is impossible to please God, for he is the rewarder of them that diligently seek him, but we're saved by grace, not by works. I mean, I could go on, like you what you come to find out when you leave, and it's been three and a half years for me now, right? Okay, you are indoctrinated to the point where I am in the grocery store singing Mormon hymns in my head still. You know, uh all of the things, and I think it's indoctrination because it's the same story over and over and over again. They'll have they'll put a little tiny spin on it, and like everyone will love the lesson because we've we thought of it differently, but it's the same stories over and over again. And if you spend a lifetime in the church, you're getting the same correlated lesson every four years. So, what are you really learning?

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Yeah, the the well, okay. I'll I will tell you this there is great power in stories. That's why I want to tell my story now. That's why I come on this podcast, that's why I want to hear your story. There's power in story in life, real lived experience. In real people, and real stories are more powerful than the fiction they make up. The fiction stories carry power, but I think a true story carries more power.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Because it's what another human went through and what they conquered, and what what is humanly possible, not just fictionally possible.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I and it's like maybe it'd be more difficult to start a cult with the real story, but I'm not interested in pursuing that. I don't that's doesn't that's not on my agenda. I don't want to start one today or tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

What I would like is to be able to go to Sacrament with mom. I went on Sunday with her, and it was open mic day at Sacrament.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

And I would like to be able to attend with my grandchildren and with my stepchildren and with my in laws who are Mormon and not feel unwelcomed for wanting to rip my hair out and scream out the door because I hear the same things being Propagated there that I think are so harmful. And I don't know if that will ever happen. I don't know if all every time I step inside a building now, I will have a certain amount of angst about it because I just don't like the doctrine that is fed to people in these meetings. And it's sometimes it's not even officially coming from the church on open mic day. You can be getting it from anyone. I got a good probably 10 minutes from Jeff French on Sunday, which was just thrilling for me to hear that man's opinion about anything in the world. So I I that's my hope. And I don't know if that's more therapy. I don't know if it just means I cannot attend. I don't know. I'm trying to figure that out because I would like to go for the baby blessings. I would like to go, you know, the baptisms are hard for me because the children only eat. Because you just don't feel welcome, you know, you don't feel part of things. So we'll see what happens there. You know, I'm I'm open to to see. And I I don't I don't want to be driven away. I want to I want to be able to attend with my mother and hold her hand as she sits alone in church week after week.

unknown 45:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

I remember going to dad's funeral and two things stand out. One is like how it was boycotted by the members of the ward.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

And no, it was boycotted by the people who advertised it to the members. They didn't allow it to be, you know, propagated through the Mormon channels that this was happening, that he had passed away and we were having a funeral. So even at that, he got a lot more people at his funeral than my mission president who got divorced after his mission and remarried. Like there's there's social punishment for going coloring outside the lines.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

Yeah. And the the other thing that stood out is we were eating. I stepped outside the room and I was making some comment about the silliness of some sign in the hall or something. And this um young lady about 19 steps up and talks about how, you know, I this is our whatever, and you shouldn't talk about our whatever and othering me, like I had no idea or context what I was talking about. You had no right to be there and being or or how have any sort of critical eyes or any sort of insight, or you know, and it was like okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

Honey. Honey.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

You're gonna be able to do it. This is gonna be this is this is gonna be a story you tell 20 years from now when you're disillusioned.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

Yeah, and you go, I can't believe I said that to some poor guy at his dad's funeral in the hall.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

Who was a returned Mormon missionary eagle skin? Yeah, who had who had army majors, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's like okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

But I knew better than him because how dare him say anything bad about my the signs in the hallway at my church.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

About uh about us, about yes, yeah, the other two. He's certainly not one of us. Yeah, it's like okay, I'll I'll take that, you know, I'll take not being one of them. If if that's the price of my freedom, I'm willing to pay that price. But to say I didn't have any service, okay, you're free to say that, but I know the truth. And I know you know the truth, even though you're not willing to admit it.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I if you just broke down the number of hours in just plain service that you had done for the church, and me too, because we were both missionaries. You were missionary for a little bit longer than me, but um just the missionary service alone. Like I if I could go back and work that year and earn, you know, $160,000 a year for that year.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

Yeah, I got an insurance settlement check, and I wrote the church an $18,000 check, even though I was on um was I was disfellowshipped at the time. Oh, they were more than willing to take the check. Yeah, and they were more than willing to call you a piece of shit a piece of shit at the same time, but but but they'll take you in with a smile, but we're gonna call you a piece of shit. Yeah, and it was like, well, they didn't buy me anything, did it?

SPEAKER_01 48:33

No, and and you could have had a car.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

Yeah, I could have had a V8.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

But yeah, that's what I think of now.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Or at least a good V6.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

Yeah, at least a V6. Maybe not a Corvette, but yeah. It's it's amazing the amount of ourselves that we will give.

SPEAKER_00 48:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's it's one-sided.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

Yeah, it is completely.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

It goes to one place, it doesn't come back to us. And then when we need the guidance, they don't think about they don't consider us, we're not, we're not really a uh a serious concern of theirs, and uh except as it may impact their image. And then as soon as you do anything, we're liability only, we're we're not any sort of asset that they need to appreciate.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Well, I I used to always tell Larry that I wanted to be excommunicated because I wanted to sit in that room with the high counsel that you know kicked me out the last time I met with them.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

And this is you're a client, you're a client.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

Uh you look familiar. I'm not kidding. Uh I used to say that I wanted to be excommunicated because I wanted to talk about everything to a group full of men, right? And Larry said, Paula. He said, You think you're gonna get some satisfaction out of that. They will keep you from saying what you want to say. It's not free time for you to express your, you know, your dissatisfaction with the way you've been treated or the way they currently treat other people. It is just about, you know, getting the punishment needed out, right? It's like it will not be this, it's not gonna be this great moment, like cinematic moment where you get to, you know, bitch chew these guys all out, and all of a sudden they come to some understanding that, oh, maybe we haven't been fair. Maybe, maybe requiring girls to be virgins till they're 40 isn't right. You know, that's never gonna happen. And so he said, I if I were you, he said, I'd I would skip all of the trauma of going through a court and just quit.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

Yeah, they're they're hard-hearted. So when I had that terrible depression, I was admitted as impatient for a month, and and then is like after that, I'm gonna confess all my sins. And so, okay, you're totally broken, you're confessing your sins. We're gonna have a trial to see if we excommunicate to you, and we're gonna be nice. I need to just fellowship you. The thing they were most concerned is at the end of all that process is they wanted to know did I still have a testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet? That was the thing they were very most concerned about. That was the thing, you know, of all the things they could be concerned about is well, I still Do you still believe in this dead guy being a prophet? And I tell and I said, Absolutely, I believe that if he hadn't accepted Fanny Algeda, the angel would have killed him. No, I didn't say that. I didn't know all I didn't I didn't know that information. I thought I I thought I was the freak. I thought I was a sexual freak, whatever. No, I'm not.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

You are so far from Joseph Smith, sexy, freaky, freaky sex guy.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

Right. So if you saw if you if you saw the tiger king, that's how you know you're normal. You know, it's like I'm not, I'm not, I'm not weird. No, you're not weird. That's not what weird is. That's weird.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Yeah, but and we need to start talking about some of that stuff because truly um them getting you to feel like you're weird because you are human is one of their superpowers, right? Because they take humanness and and and weaponize it.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

Yeah, normal biologic development. I want to read more from the miracle of forgiveness because okay, I'm not done driven.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Okay, because I think it's good to break that down because it's so full of bad messaging for both men and women, girls and boys. It's just bad.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

And it's full of hate. Let's just read it, you know, with like I'm gonna read it and and and see, is this love? They told me this was love. They told me this was love.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

And you have to imagine that you're a child, too, really, when you read it, even if you're 20, you know, like even if it's before your mission, you're really a child. Your amygdala is not fully formed, right?

SPEAKER_00 53:17

No, you gotta be 25 for that.

unknown 53:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

I I your prefrontal cortex to be developed more.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

Okay, it's your prefrontal cortex. Is your amygdala like your lizard brain?

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Is that what it is is it processes emotions? It's a rapid processing center and it's a it runs on emotion.

SPEAKER_01 53:36

Okay, that's what's wrong in me.

SPEAKER_00 53:43

You could you couldn't ever make a decision without it. You would you would spend two weeks trying to decide between large curtain, small curtain, the grocery store. If you couldn't make a quick emotional, yeah, this one feels better.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Okay, so people think about every little decision, like what kind of what brand of peanut butter to buy.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

If you if you don't, if you don't let emotions run some of that for you, you will do analyze the spreadsheet till the cows come home.

SPEAKER_01 54:09

And not make a move.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

Not make a move, right? Because they've had strokes that affect that area. And so these accountants, they go to the grocery stores, they can't do shit, they're just frozen with considering all the objective things and getting to an objective conclusion, and they can't get there.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Did you have to make decisions emotionally to make them fast enough for your brain to now? That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 54:30

Yeah, you need that heuristic, which is a useful shortcut. Heuristics are useful, shortcuts. Emotional decisions are a very useful shortcut, very, very useful.

SPEAKER_01 54:40

Even our vision has a useful shortcut because we don't see everything, we don't hear everything. No, we fill it in. I understand everything. There's no way you could understand everything. Our brains are not meant to understand everything, they're meant to process and fill in.

SPEAKER_00 54:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and and you need to come to something that's reasonable and useful.

SPEAKER_01 55:02

Yeah. That that you can take action in your own life.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

All right.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Well, I love you.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

I love you too. Have such a good week.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

All right.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

Go have fun with with have fun storming the castle and that the um well, I have totally we're gonna go swim at this guy's pool, and he has a pool, a cold plunge, and a jacuzzi on like an acre. And it he's just one of the homeowners here, and he opens it up to his friends. And so if you're a friend, you can come. And it's just so peaceful. It's in the woods, it's just beautiful. It's really pretty here. So we're gonna go have fun. Love you.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

Bye bye.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

Bye.