Brother's and Sisters Guest Starring Larry, Paula's Husband

Discussed the decision to inform Larry's adult children about his resignation from the Mormon church. Gulp. Let the shoe fall where it may.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Well, welcome everybody.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

There's something I've been dying to say to you.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Sabadi Pa.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Swadi Cop. Sabadi Kob. But Thai teacher said that if you really want to do that right, after you do the bow it, you come up and you make eye contact.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Oh, the eye contact.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Yeah, after you bow, come up, you make eye contact. That's super friendly. That's that, that's the perfect way to do it.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

I can't walk through the main area of the hotel anymore because it's sawika, sawika. Like to everyone, they all have to say it, and it's really sweet.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

They all love your sister.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Oh well.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Well, who doesn't? I mean, come on now. No, it's true. It's true.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

We've been having a good time. It was funny when we first checked in there in here, they said, You're here for what, five weeks? Nobody ever spends that kind of time. Don't worry, it'll fly by. And I was like, it's not gonna fly by. And guess what?

SPEAKER_02 1:05

It's flying by. Yeah, this this Friday's our last day here at this place. You're you're uh yeah, well, at this hotel, at this resort. Then we stay on Phuket, but we go about two hours north. It's actually we get off of Phuket Island, uh, because there's a bridge that but we just go right up the the uh um the uh west co the west coast. Uh we go about two and a half hours north because we're all the way at this we're as far south on Phuket Island as you can get, literally. Yeah, we're right at the tip.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

We have dinner at top of the reef, and it is the top of the reef of the end of the island.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're you're going up to to Kaltalib. That's where our scuba boat leaves from. Well, cow uh Kal Lock is where we're going.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Oh, you're going to the forest? Yeah. And so we're up we're at one place for 11 days and then the last place for nine days.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Are you and then are you are you are you staying on cabins over the water or no, no, no, we're not bougie like you. Okay, no, no, no, we're not doing that either. Are are you are you trekking through the national forest on like the national tours or are you staying around the edges?

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Well, yeah, we're we're staying at the resort. We don't have anything. Uh what we probably will do the uh because we were in the same place two years ago.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Uh um this is the place that has the pool that's 300 meters long and it's all ocean front.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Okay. Uh but we we went bamboo rafting and at v riding, and we'll probably do that again and maybe go to an elephant sanctuary. We did that, we went to an elephant place up in Chiang Mai, yeah uh where we actually we got in and got to feed the elephants. We got in the mud bath and got to help give them a mud bath and get in the river and wash them off.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

But when they decide to move thing, you gotta be able to get out of their way, and I'm not all that fast on my feet, and so I and I have a kind of ethical dilemma. I'm glad that they're all sanctuaries and you're not riding them, but it's still sad to see such majestic beasts, you know.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Not in a not in a normal natural habitat.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Uh so so tell me where you're going.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Um well we're we're we're staying at this little $60 night resort uh in the forest, uh away from the beach. Uh when we when we first we're flying to Phuket, and then we take a taxi on the other side of the bridge. We stay there a night, and then we get on the liveaboard, and then we come back and we stay there's three more nights after the liveaboard. It's yeah. How long are you on the live? Oh, okay. Well, we're in Cal Lac.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Because you're scuba diving.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

No, how long are you on the liveaboard? Uh four nights, five days.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Yeah, and you're scuba diving on it, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yeah, we're going deep. We have to get extra certification to go deep enough. Okay. How far? How deep? Uh um uh uh 30 meters.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Okay, I've only been down 65 feet. That's the deepest I've gone.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

It was scary.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Yeah, no, you haven't gone that far.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Darling. Don't you with your pretty little head?

SPEAKER_01 4:22

We're gonna do the big bigger tanks and the nitrox, and you're gonna have the dive computers and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

We did um snorkel yesterday, and that was super fun. Really beautiful coral area that they found for us on PP Islands. We've we've been to now James Bond Island. Yeah, we did.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Yeah, you say you are that's one place I want to go, but the PP Islands are gonna just yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

We we we went to the beach where the movie The Beach with Leonardo DiCaprio was filmed. Yeah. You take a long tail boat, or would you take bougie? We had a we were on a nice big catamaran. Nice, but we've been on more long tail boats than you can shake a stick at.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

And we've been on long tail boats without a ladder that you have to get in and out of. I mean, like we've done the whole we've we've done the gamut. I prefer the ones with the ladder that I can get on and off under my own steam. Plus stuck from behind.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

No, this catamaran was nice. They had a ladder that dropped down in the water where you could actually get your feet on it.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Yeah, yeah, it was really nice. And it was it was a nice all the places we went were nice. Monkey Island, and we saw bamboo forest, and we saw um black tip sharks. Although we we didn't see any this trip, we've seen them before, we've filmed them before.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

You you go into the classified unbot sold, and they're selling a used 50-foot catamaran for just over a hundred thousand dollars, and it's like oh boy, it's tempting.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

You know, I know I could make a sale on it, and so yeah, yeah. A lot of things here are tempting because we just don't know. It seems so uncertain in the United States, especially with where we are with retirement, you know. So we're like, can we cash it all in and and go to to Denang? Can I say that? And um and buy us something outright and just live out our days.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

There you can't you don't have property rights in Vietnam. You can't own land. You can own a condo.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Um you'd have to make border runs. And unless you've got a lawyer and got some sort of investment visa, but it it's the visa situation is a lot more complex in Vietnam. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

It's it's my favorite.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

What?

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Yeah, I know. And we're not, we're not like we're not seriously like thinking about putting our house on the market, but it is something that we're talking about. And it's something that we're talking about like where our investment portfolio is, because we don't have the luxury of any more time to make a mistake or to have a big mistake made on our behalf.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Yeah, there's a lot of mumbling about uh about a AI bubble about to pop.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Yeah. And and since I lived through the first tech bubble and I saw the overbuild of the data centers, which is really what caused it, this is really fresh for me in my mind. You know, it's it's scary.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

The scale of this is much bigger than the than the 2000 one.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Yeah, when it was just a few players looking to dominate the data center space. This is much different.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

This isn't the housing crisis of 2007, although that is a different housing crisis for different reasons. It's not from lending too much sloppy money. It's it's from letting private equity buy up all the housing stock, and now people can't afford it, and that's going to be politically unstable.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Yeah. Yeah. So we just don't know. And, you know, we're in the place where where um like I have resigned from the church, you know, like I don't have very many ties except for mom and you and Katie and some family that bring me back to Indiana. It's a pretty good time for me to to cut and run if I need to. Larry, on the other hand, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Okay, so so it's the last Sunday of Gay Pride Month.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Guess what I've seen twice this month? Huge rainbows. So beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah. And and it's like it's pretty brave to come out.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Pretty brave to come out.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Gay, you know, especially with the era we grew up in.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Wait, are you announcing something?

SPEAKER_01 8:55

I'm not announcing that, but I'm announcing publicly about my resignation from the church, which feels a whole lot similar. There's a lot of parallels to gay pride coming out of the closet that way. Coming out of the closet, I'm I'm I'm mentally out, I'm I'm physically done. You know, I haven't had that frank conversation with my own mother yet. Everybody else knows, frankly. But it's just it's the same kind of social pressure.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

You know that I talked to mom and told her that I don't believe anymore, but she does not know that I have actually submitted my resignation.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

I haven't told her frankly. I think she's figured it out. I think the church probably tells her in their way at tithing settlement.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Settlement that your children are now going to hell. Here it pays 10%.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Yeah, the hell that Mormons don't believe in until it's convenient.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Yeah, until they need it for their argument.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

I've been working all week on a letter to my kids that I'm planning on sending probably tomorrow, uh, which is uh telling them that I'm that I've submitted my resignation. And I did get notice this week or the no the last week that it had been submitted to Curtin and McConkie. So they said the church is not sending any confirmation to people anymore. But they said once it's gone to them, uh you know, that's all you're gonna hear.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Somebody's in damage control uh on the church side. So so you are you coming out of the closet then, Larry? To your family. Uh the kids, yes. Okay. Yeah, I'm telling them that I've resigned from the church. That's pretty damn that's very brilliant. That's pretty there's a lot of pressure there. A lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Well, I think there'll be Larry has uh a unique story in that I mean maybe not unique from other Mormon men who had large families, but but his family has moved together as a tribe, and they don't really understand our leaving and leaving America and why we aren't MAGA and why we, you know Arts going on with uh three temple shifts a week and going on a mission and why I don't have a quilting room, like they just cannot get a beat on us as far as as us feeling normal to them to begin with. Yeah, um, I think a lot of that, like when we talked about having Larry on as a guest star, I well, you were reading the miracle of forgiveness, and I wanted you to kind of explain what happened when your marriage did break up, as far as how the church handled that with between you and your children. And I think that set up this cascading effect of Larry losing his ability to have any say in their spiritual lives.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Well, yeah, I learned years ago that anything I tried to throw in, you know, because they love these long, they they love there's a you know, family text string with all the kids, and they they'll go on and quote a talk that they've heard or a devotional that they heard or whatever. And and uh so years ago I used to try to chime in with some of my ex uh you know experience.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

First hand experience with these with the people that they're talking about in the stories.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

And uh, you know, and that was never well received, so I finally just decided um uh I let them go on and and and uh clap each other on the back and tell each other how good they are and how much they appreciate all of that information, and I just I just don't respond anymore on those uh on those text strings.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

And Paul is it's almost like you've been silenced.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Almost uh very close. Very close. I chose to remove myself from the string because I just couldn't take all of the confirmation that they had to give to one another over and over and over again. It just got nauseating to me, to be frank. It was just like we don't need to hear like every sentence about how great the church is because someone made an A in their science class, you know. Like it just the two do not equate, and I don't need to hear it, you know, over and over and over again. When on the other side of it, we're being treated so poorly, you know, when when we are not able to express anything um spiritually to them.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Yeah. So I stopped doing that, but uh, but I and I think that they know that you know that we're we haven't been active, and we've certainly posted a number of pictures of Paula on Instagram where she's or she doesn't even have uh the new garments on. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

One shoulder showing that that porn.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

No, but uh yeah, but in any case, the so I think they know that we haven't been very active, but I haven't said anything to them about you know about leaving the church, but uh I finally decided it was time.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Do you feel like you were set up by the church to lose space spiritually to lose like when no let me let me finish the question? When Carol had you talk to each of the kids individually and confess your sins and take the final picture with you, do you feel like that was a setup for them?

SPEAKER_02 14:30

By Carol, not by the church.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

By Carol, okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Well, why don't you tell that story?

SPEAKER_02 14:35

Well, I mean, she you know, uh she for quite a few years before the divorce happened, um she was uh it was obvious that you know that she wasn't happy with things, and and we both then we talked about it and we said, you know, let's wait until uh our two boys were home from their missions before we do anything. And but uh but it was interesting. We uh and we worked at it. We we both went to a a counselor, uh, and he met with the two of us, and then he met with uh Carol uh by herself and he met with me by herself, and then he had both of us come back in together, and he said, Listen, he says, I you know, he was a marriage counselor, family family uh family marriage counselor, and and he said, I've talked with you together, I've talked with you individually. I don't see anything at all in what you've told me that's all that unusual, and I don't see anything there that can't be resolved. However, he said, uh um what I don't what what I don't see is an underlying basis of love. He says, if you had that, he says, you you know, you could work through all of these things. There's nothing you know, there's nothing uh battering, yeah. Uh but he says, I don't see that. And he says, if that's not there, he says, you're just wasting my time and your money.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Except for that. No, no, Mrs. Lincoln, except for that. How'd you like to play? How is the show? Yeah, America has everything except that, except law. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

So I didn't understand that you had talked about after the boys got home from their missions maybe separating then.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

I I yeah, yeah, pretty, it's pretty that's pretty that's pretty fundamental.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Yeah, but it is. But she what she was waiting for was for me to do something that she could then turn to the kids and say, um, and and say, I'm the guy, he's the bad guy. I told you so. She otherwise, she didn't want to come out and say, uh, I want a divorce. She wanted me to give her an iron an ironclad reason to do it. And so I had uh we got divorced. Well, we separated. The divorce took a few months, but anyway, we separated in June of 2003, and in April, just two months before that, I had uh attended this workshop. I was uh doing a church back in uh in uh Atlanta, and there was a workshop going on. I don't remember the name of it, but anyway, it was basically about uh um the power of touch, the power of conscious touch. Yeah. And I went but and and uh there were, I don't know, 15 men, 15 women, something like that, there, 10 or 15. Uh and um I met the lady who was the facilitator, became and still is a lifelong friend. Paula and I spent a month with her in in uh in Tampa, Florida, uh, in March. Uh March? This year in March, yeah. Anyway, uh, but it but it it it was it was about the power of conscious touch and and there was uh nudity there, but no sexual touch. And uh it was really a powerful experience. I didn't tell Carol I was there, uh, but it was a powerful experience. Well, uh there uh was a woman whose father was a general authority, father-in-law was a general authority who had written a book that Carol and I were both reading, and so she was uh obviously an active member of the church, and and she was talking about dealing with problems and issues, and Carol and I were reading it, uh trying to you know figure out what it applied what applied to us. And so when I got back from that seminar, I wrote her an email.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

The therapist, the therapist, the uh oh thane, the Marsha equivalent.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Yeah. Uh and so I wrote her an email. Uh and I said you didn't have love. No, no, I told her that I went that I went to this seminar and uh and uh it was something I hadn't told my wife about, uh but but it was really powerful and I felt the spirit as much as I did in sacrament meeting. And could I come in and talk to her about it? Well, she wrote me back an email that was just scathing. I would no way would I talk to you about it until you tell your wife and until you tell your bishop you're out of integrity. I have no interest in talking to you.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Was it was this a church employed counselor?

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Oh no, no, no. This is a and she's not a licensed therapist. I'm not sure. That's all okay.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

All right.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

I I give this, I uh okay, not a licensed therapist. But not a licensed therapist, but she ABL, all but licensed. And certainly purported herself as being an expert.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

And it was a time in your marriage, if I'm not spilling too many beans, where there had been no physical contact for a while.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Five years, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

There had been no hand holding, no kissing, no hugging, and especially there'd been a little hand holding. Maybe the pen. Well, that I got that from Daryl himself.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

So anyway, there's some bindings there. I I so I wrote this letter, this email to her, and she wrote me back this scathing reply. Well, uh Carol, of course, didn't know that I'd sent the email and and uh that I didn't that I wasn't in contact with this lady, but she also you know was trying to figure things out, and so she went in and unbeknownst unbeknownst to me, went in and made an appointment to go see this lady. Uh so she's in there talking to her and explaining you know her concerns and the the this therapist in Quote Forks now said, Oh, I know who your husband is, and she got the email out that I sent to her and she printed it off and gave Carol a copy of it.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Real professional I real professional. So anyway, I got home from from uh the the chapel trip that I was working on, and all the kids she had her ticket. Oh yeah, she that's exactly what she was looking for. So uh all the kids were sitting except Amanda, because she was only nine at the time, all the kids were sitting in the family room, and and she pulled out the email and she read it to the kids, and then she turned to them, and here's the famous word she says, Now you see why I have to divorce this man. And so that's that's that's what she was waiting for.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Well, and she had the bishop there.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Well, that was three years before. Okay. When I was disfellowshipped.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

And then okay, that's the story that gets me because they involved your children in your marriage.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Yeah, three years before when I was disfellowshipped, one of the conditions that Carol demanded of the bishop is that, and she, by the way, was livid that I wasn't excommunicated for a set for the second time, that they only disfellowship me. She was pissed, pissed, pissed, pissed, pissed. But in any case, so so uh one of the conditions she uh uh demanded of the bishop is that he come over to our house and uh and uh and I sit and he we went down into A basement bedroom, and he and I uh had the children come in one at a time and I confessed to them my sins one at a time with the bishop there. And the bishop went along with that?

SPEAKER_00 22:11

I yeah, that and that's and I mean taking a final picture, take a final picture with your father, like he's not gonna be in your life anymore.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Anyway, it's such a but uh I was I was I was I was I I was insecure enough that I went along with it. You and uh I regret I regret that to this day, obviously. Yeah, that's in it so inappropriate on so many levels.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Yeah. Well, first of all, it's not fair to the first and foremost, it's not fair to the kids. No, yeah, no, second, it it's not fair to you. No, and third, there's all kinds of people in positions of authority, you know, that should have never allowed that to happen. There were so many failures in so many ways that that's well the state president.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

I knew him really well. I was I'd I'd been uh uh state clerk for a while, and he and and he and I he worked at the church office building. We went on back and forth on the bus together. So I knew him really well. And he later told me uh a couple of years later, he said, you know, I look back on my service as state president, and there's things I like and things I didn't like, but he says probably the biggest regret I had was to allow that to happen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Because from then on, Larry's looked at spiritually as less than.

SPEAKER_03 23:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

We can't listen to you. You have nothing that you can add to the conversation. And then when the brethren say things, do not seek out advice from people who do not believe exactly as you feel. Like his place as a father is is completely uh diminished.

SPEAKER_03 23:58

Nullified.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Yeah, nullified. Even though his kids love him desperately, they love one another. It's just that the church has gotten in the way. And so he's he's got this at Carol's behest. Yeah, at Carol's insistence, actually. And so now we've got to break this news to them that we're not no longer going to be at the spiritual table.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

They don't care that I'm you have to or you get to.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Yeah, probably we get to, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:27

I would take it from the point of view I get to declare my freedom. I tell you, man, there's something to liberate it. You you you put it in your mind, I'm declaring my freedom, I'm standing on my own two feet, and I make this is my stand. This is me. Well, let's just you can you can say what you want to say, you can think what you want to think, that's all fine. I have spoken my peace, this is my peace. No, I'm pretty direct.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

And I think you're getting more um honest about the the emotion behind it too, as because he's he just hasn't written it and sent it off in some fury, you know. We're really trying to take our time and and do it as as ethically and kindly as we can, you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

But being I like the deliberate approach. I like the deliberate approach. I like the deliberate approach. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Yeah, deliberate is great. Yeah, and and we're not in any like what's the hurry? We have at least 11 days left at this resort.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

So yeah, no, so we're uh yeah, this next week, uh probably tomorrow evening, I'm gonna send it to them and and then maybe a week later send it to my brothers and sisters. That's as far as I'm gonna send it, but uh my brothers and sisters will be equally aghast.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

But uh well, I I just finished a book I think might be therapeutic for you. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Um called the Book of Mormon.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

No, no, it's it's written by an author who grew up in the children of God, which is a famous sex pedophilia cult. Uh she grew up in she was born of American parents, uh raised in South America mainly. Um got kicked out, joined the army, became an intelligence army, went on to get um a master's from Harvard in cult studies, and she has a book talking about the tactics bad guys use. It's called The Culting of America, and it it explains why they do what they do and why they take offense, uh, the way they take offense. And and the cult tactics are pretty standard across cults, but it was very it helped crystallize my thoughts and helping me understand this is the experience I live through.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Yeah. Yeah, and a chapter that I wrote in my book is, you know, about the loss of words that you have when it does when you realize what has happened to you, you know, like we don't have a vocabulary for that. I think that's why people like John Delyn and the other people that are willing to speak out are so valuable because they give us vocabulary, a way of expressing what it is that has happened to us as humans.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Yeah, as goofy as this might sound, Rx Mormon, the Reddit site was a huge help to me because there's so many people that with real credentials with bringing receipts who are saying what I'm feeling, and it's like, oh, I'm not alone.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

No, yeah, I'm not crazy.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

I'm not crazy. No, yeah, nice family you have there. It'd be a shame if anything happened to them. I heard that line on Rx Marmon, and it's like that is what the church teaches.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

It is, and it's really sad.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like they're all about families, as long as we're the ones calling the shots, and if you don't let us call the shots, it'd be a shame if something happened to them, you know.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

And as long as everyone's hetero.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Yeah, well, yeah, that's them calling the shots, you know. Yeah, it's a control, it's a control thing. It's but it's I I I listen to it on Audible. I liked it. Her voice is a little stiff on this recording. Her first one is more personal memoir, uncultured, and she's more relaxed, and it's more her natural voice. Uh, and she's more a stiff academic voice in the culting of America. And if I would say, just loosen up when you read your books from now on.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Maybe she had AI read it for, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

That was her voice. It's her. I know her.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Yeah. All right. Let me you you talk to Paula, and I'm gonna uh the cult the culting of America was that that was my latest therapeutic book I read. It was like those are the tactics. I recognize those tactics, I see those tactics, you know, in political organizations and religious organizations, um, the the military, whatever the whole environment is, and they want to take control of your thinking and your mind, these are the tactics they use, these are the bad guys. Daniela, Daniela Mestnianic. Yeah, that's it. Mestonic, yeah. Okay, yeah. I have Steve has I I wrote a comment in in um um in uh not Twitter, what's TikTok? It's like I told her, I said, look, I have this huge intellectual crush on you, and she liked that. But the way she thinks, you know, yeah, it's like and she says, I've always wondered why I'm so close to Mormons growing up, and the more I talk to them and the more friends I have, you know, in the military and other places, and it's like our our experiences are so similar, you know, the tactics are so similar, our stories are so similar, you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

And I like the fact that she likes yeah, all religions really.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

If you break it down, yeah, but there's some were more similar and because they're more closely related where they branched off than others, yeah. And and her experience and our experience are very similar.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

And we have polygamy and paedophilia and underage girls and like all of that, the sex culting part of it alike, which a lot of churches don't have or haven't had for centuries. Oh no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

You need to look, you need to take a closer look. I you can't tell me the Catholic churches in a pedophilia sex cult. The way the priests treat those altar boys, that's that and and and if protected institutionally, that's a pedophile sex cult, you know, and the way they demonize everything but heterosexual marriage, and that's really second best to being a pedophile priest or or a celibate nun, um, covering up for the for the priests. No, that's I disagree. I I take a closer look. If you think that cult doesn't have a weird as hell twisted sex aspect, you haven't you don't know the history of that cult.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Oh, I'm saying that I think most religions have that.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Most religions do. And and I completely see the problems in the Catholic Church. I see the problems in the Mormon church with the Boy Scouts and how they they protected pedophiles through the Boy Scouts and through, you know, there's there's a lot of it it's interesting to me the amount of pearl clutching we do over the wrong things.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Well, the the the yeah, the the pearl clutching is to keep the rank and file in line, those don't really apply to the top leadership, but the poverty vows, the the the the sexual purity vows are really for the rank and file. And I thought for the long time that the upper levels of the church followed that, and then I learned what a polygamist Joseph Smith was and how that was hid. And then the polygamist Brigham Young, and how it's like that didn't just come from nowhere. And the more you learn, the more you know, and it's like that's just that's that that purity stuff is just for the rank to keep the rank and file in line. It's not it's just they're the ones that are scarable about sex, it's just keeping it's to keep it it it it's it's a high emotion, hot button issue that can get to your inner needs and psyche with, and it's it's a it's a quick shortcut to control. It's it's a little less violent than shooting you, but not much less.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Yeah, and now the I hear preachers in Texas say we should line, you know, up line up the homosexuals and shoot them in the head. It it is violent, it's it is violent, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

It is very violent. It it right, it's a kind of rhetoric that leads to actual kinetic violence, but right now it's violence of words, yeah. But but but there's been plenty of homosexuals and trans beat to death because of people's words, too.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Yeah, which is pathetically sad.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Okay, it's just bully stuff, it's bully 101 stuff.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

It's just and I don't know why we're allowing it.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Like, I've never liked bullies, you know, and and the more I realized this wasn't sincerely held beliefs as it was bullying, and it's like, oh, I I I just I my I just I just can't stand bullies. It is like you want to get my dander up and my and my and my spine stiff and come at me like a bully, you know, in a way that I understand. Oh, okay. I didn't understand they're bullying me as an adolescent about the masturbation and touching yourself and worthiness stuff and and this interview and never marrying a good Mormon girl stuff. I didn't understand that as bullying, but when I understand it as bullying, it's like, oh no, we got a problem. And now I'm understanding that as bullying, and I'm like, I want to say, hey guys, if you feel like you're being bullied, you're being bullied.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Because look, this is the problem to not feel like you were being bullied, like absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

They the velvet gloves, they paid millions and millions of dollars to message and velvet glove it, so you don't even realize you're being bullied. Amen. You think these are sincerely held beliefs from the top down that it applies to everybody, and that that the apostles are all quote unquote church broke when they're not church broke, you know, but the images they're following the same rules you and I have to follow. And it's like, hmm, you don't it it it is so smooth and polished, you don't even realize the handcuffs that are put on you. Yeah, yeah. They spent they spent a lot of money on that messaging, and it's money well invested. Yeah. Uh the people that are sloppier at it are the um the Scientologists very much sloppy at it, although they're getting enough money that they're starting to get better advice about being smooth about it. The Jehovah's Witnesses, not very smooth about it. And I'm lately getting into a lot of the therapists that are ex-Jehovah's Witnesses helping other Jehovah's Witnesses exit and hearing my story and their stories. Um and I'm like really like my heart goes out to all the Jehovah's Witnesses I knew growing up, and why did I like them so and feel this affinity to them? Our experiences are very similar, yeah. Except they came at it like education is unnecessary and bad because the apocalypse is coming. But the Mormon took the tact, get all the education you can, but see it through our lens, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

But still see the earth as 6,000 years old, even though you're a scientist. Yeah, somehow faith and science can coexist.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, and then that's that's a great line. That is an awesome line. That is fantastic, but do they really mean it?

SPEAKER_00 35:48

Completely untrue, but fantastic. Fantastical.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

It's a great, it's a great sales pitch. That's Madison Avenue, you know. That's slick. Yeah. Slick, slick, slick.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

What uh one of the general authorities I worked with who after he became a general authority worked for the audiovisual department, yeah. Uh because he was with a uh Madison Avenue group that was approached by the church. And uh, you know, help us with our image. Yeah, and he I mean and he talked about some of the other projects he worked he'd worked on, and how well, for example, one of the ones he talked about was the American Plastic Institute that uh that came to him and said, you know, we're getting killed on all of these referendums to uh to end plastic bottling and and uh single use plastic all of these pictures of the of the uh dump of the uh the ocean and the dumps full of all these plastic bottles. We need help. And so he said we had to design a campaign. Uh and he said uh it was during the Vietnam War, and one of the things that we wanted to show was uh the plastic helmets that the soldiers were wearing and and how that was saving lives. But the focus groups that we did said that was too emotional. Uh we couldn't do that. Uh, and so then we we we we switched to bicycle helmets and and showing how they had helped save kids' lives, these plastic bicycle helmets. And he said that went over really well. And so he said it's a matter of tweaking the message. And he says, then the church came to us and said, you know, how could we tweak the message? And he says, I talked to some of my norm non-Mormon friends, and they he's they said uh that's a really easy answer. It's family, you've got to own the family.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Uh uh, as they do, they own all of the control because when you're in the tribe, you're part of the family, and everything is great and smooth. And the second you uh you do not act in accordance to the tribe rules, which are made-up rules.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

It's not just a tribe, it's the high control tribe. Yeah. When I was working for the Indian Health Service and I saw what tribes the accommodations actual ancient tribes make for people uh with differences, even dangerous differences. I was like amazed. It's like, okay, we have a pedophile, so they can't be here and here and here, but we don't put them out of the tribe because that's a death sentence. Um, but you know, we we protect ourselves, but we don't exclude them uh in these dangerous ways, you know. And and it was like I was just amazed. It was like, and and the three gender thing that they have man, woman, other done, and we're okay. Whatever you say you are, you can say you're a man, you can say you're a woman, you can say you're a man.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

And they're okay to say hey, we don't have a drunk until we don't have a chance. We're still providing things to Christmas.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Yeah, we don't randomly put people out of the tribe because that's a death sentence. We're not that brutal, we're not that savage, you know. And it's like my savage tribe will put you out for the my most minor of things, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

And see the difference there, pass the sacrament.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Yeah, yeah. And it's like you you can approach tribalism from a different mindset, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

And and that I can see as not being as harmful, seriously.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

That's survival. Because we're wired to be social beings, you know, and and those connections, there's survival in those, but people cynically have co-opted that into something that's high control and damaging.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

And cult-like, oh, there it is.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Yeah, and instead of saying all or none with cults, you go, this aspect is cultish or that aspect is cultish, you know, because there may be some good things in there. So if you say it's all cultish, but people can say, but this is good, then they don't believe anything you said because you've overstated your case. So just talk about the aspects that are cultish. Stand on principle, but you don't have to paint the whole thing one color to say this organization has harmful aspects to it. Yeah. Now, the conclusion I've come to about the Mormon church is it's so full of harmful aspects, there was no way they were going to be helpful to me at all. And I had to I had to separate myself. That was the only rational decision I could come to. That was the only self-protective thing I could do.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Because they had too many control levers that they were willing to use.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

I there was irreconcilable differences, and for myself and my sanity, but if it works for you, that's great. Yeah, I protect yourself from these things that are harmful within it. If I love them, I would say protect yourself from being mentally abused by this, that, or the other technique. You know, I love you very much. Uh, it doesn't work for me. I stepped away. That's my decision, and that's how I live my best life.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

I agree.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

And we're about to yeah, as I say, I think that I think we both have well, neither one of us will get a you got a letter from the church saying your name's off the record, didn't you?

SPEAKER_01 41:13

No, no.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

I just got confirmation from my lawyer. Yeah, and we both have that now.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

So we're all no, the church is not gonna give up that kind of control. They realize, you know, it was something you held over people's head until people say, Hey, I'm gonna take advantage of that, and then all of a sudden it's like, wait, they're not scared of that. Oh, we better withdraw that. You know, so then they're not being away. The whole point of being thrown out of the church and your name taken off the rolls is that it scared people and it was shameful, and nobody wanted that. And when people go, hey, come bring it on, they were like, Well, not so fast. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Yeah, the the the numbers that I hear from people leaving, especially um returning missionaries, it's just growing and growing. Like since I started deconstructing only a few years ago, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

Without tight information control, it's it's tough to keep going. Remember how they talked about don't read those anti-Mormon books, don't read those anti-Mormon books, like by President McKay's granddaughter. And now they admit that all the aspects that they said were so terrible are actually true, and you can find it, you know, on the website. You know, and but but it information, if you know how to sort through information, you know how to find information, it's a lot harder to have people hear only a single message.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Yeah, well, it's like the Catholic Church uh holding on to uh the the the Lat the Latin language and not and not printing the Bible and in English, everyone can understand the head.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

They understand how that becomes difficult then to control people and and you be the source of that control, and you are the authority, you know, respect my authority, as Cartman would say, you know, it's just harder to understand.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

So so we look at we look at the you know at the persecution that happened in the 15-1600s by the Catholic Church, and we say that's terrible, but it's it's the same, it's the same, it's the same concept.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

It's just instead of the Gutenberg press, it's the internet.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Well, and I love it when the bullies start crying, I'm being I'm being picked on.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

I guess it's the Heidelberg press. I should know my presses. It's the Heidelberg Press that printed the Gutenberg Bible.

SPEAKER_03 43:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

All right.

SPEAKER_03 43:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Let me get my let me get my history straight.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

You're a printing girl marketing there.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Hey, I was a boat captain too.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

Yeah, yeah. She told the catamaran guy that if she had to, she could drive the boat.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Phuket, you can take sailing lessons. They've got a sailing school in South Phuket. Do they? Are you near Patang or were you near?

SPEAKER_02 44:07

Oh well, well, we're on the so Patang is over on the west side. We're on the uh far east side. East side, okay. All right, yeah. The more the more bougie, the more bougie side, the more European side. We're on we're on the very tip of we're on the Russian side.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

That's all that's hit who's here are Russians.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

Russians are taking over Pucat.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

It's interesting because uh two years ago when we did the Around the World, the tourists that we saw were Australians and Germans, I would say. And some, you know, um Japanese and French. Yeah, and oh a lot of French people vacation. But this this time it's all it's all the time.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

We'll see what the mix change there.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

The mix is changed.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

The Russians understand the the the imminent collapse of their country.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

And they're doing the same thing Larry and I are doing. They're looking for where are we gonna land?

SPEAKER_01 45:04

When this whole thing and like When are you leaving the US? Oh no, Katie's so young and she's so entrenched in her job.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

Yeah. And she's doing good work.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Yeah. Yeah, we might we might be we might just be staying behind and fighting from here. Yeah. I I'm I'm wondering if I shouldn't take all my stock positions and turn it into money market cash for the next couple years, you know, let the bubble pop and then go back in at the bottom. I don't know. I know, but we're in the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

We're in the same situation. Uh I'll tell you what, I don't want to invest in the American dollar.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

Yeah, well, yeah, well, they were calling Amazon, you know, overhyped and it'll never make a profit for the longest time. And then look at Amazon now. You know, all these super promises, you know, they they cashed in on. So it's like AI is either going to be an Amazon or it's gonna be a dot-com.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Yeah. I think a lot of it's gonna depend on what happens in the midterms and if they ever decide to do anything about regulating AI.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Yeah, and and them, and there's enough competitors that the monetization may not lead to as much profit as we think, and the efficiency may get to be the such that they've clearly overspent on the data center infrastructure because it just won't be needed when the models get more efficient. There's there's a lot of unknown questions out there.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

And that's what happened during the dot-com bust, you know.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Because I assume you're gonna need this much uh infrastructure support before the technology is matured. By the time the technology matures, you'll oh, you don't need that much infrastructure, right?

SPEAKER_00 46:50

Because you've matured the technology and you've made it slimmer.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

Moore's law. I'm gonna explain Larry Moore's Law. You have a minute for me to explain this to Larry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

Hey, they made us learn it in at Intel.

SPEAKER_03 47:05

Did they? Well, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

And I think it's interesting because when I first read it, you know, and I took it all the way, I played the tape all the way to the end, and I was like, this is gonna be biological, like yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

How what's my future as a carbon-based organism like?

SPEAKER_00 47:21

Yeah, like I like a long time ago, I've been worrying about this whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Should I start switching over to silicon now? So we need some breast implants. I wonder if I'm gonna go silicon. I'm gonna make those robots think I'm one of them.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

I'm gonna pick up there, they're not gonna be able to tell the difference between me and have you seen the movie Ex Machina? Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting one.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

Yeah, I I I think a lot's gonna depend on what happens in November as far as what we do. I think stockwise, we're pulling out of AI. All the AI infrastructure. And well, we made a lot of money with it. I know, and they're and our silver and gold are down, so who knows?

SPEAKER_01 48:09

You know, we're just trying to be diverse by the other my other little side bet, and I'm not I'm not gonna liquidate these positions because they're tiny positions anyway, is uh quantum.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Quantum.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

I don't know who that can really be the technology that simplifies our infrastructure needs.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 48:27

And then we don't need the data center in the middle of the Utah Desert that as soon as they get get as soon as they find a way to do quantum computing without super cooling, there's a there's a few physics things to be answered, but they're starting to find non-supercooled way to get informate quantum information. Um photon photonic for one, for photonic quantum.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

I mean it that that I think is people don't that it'd be a I absolutely love quantum physics, I think it's so interesting. I think what they're finding is fascinating. I I really took all the energy that I would put into religion and put it into the universe as far as learning what's going on, and it just excites me to know and how cool our universe is.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

Well, yeah, I think anyone that says there's no reason for wonder is not opening their eyes. Oh no, wonderful, amazing things that ineffable. Can't even put it into words, how wonders that is. Look at that, that's just amazing, you know. And I don't need someone to tell me, now give me 10% of your of your gross and let me sleep with your wife to have that wonder. I can do that all on my own. Because the world is a wonderful place, it is, and we're lucky enough to and I don't I don't need some guy in a white shirt and tie telling me how to how to have wonder about the universe. I like I like the grumpy old guys in lab coats, um, you know, looking at the evidence, looking at the running experiments, running experiments, trying to see how it actually works, and I'll change my beliefs when I get new evidence. I like that. The ones that say I will never change my beliefs, regardless of the evidence, I don't have any need for.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

No, because they're completely closed-minded and they're not gonna discover what are they gonna discover, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:21

No, I want someone who'll say, Well, this is my best belief now, and when I get new evidence, I'll update my beliefs. He was an old Presbyterian uh minister that came up with that theory, Bayes, and that's I think is the way to look at the world.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

Do you ever see um Brian Cox? He's a Brian Cox. Yeah, what I love about him is he looks like a beetle and he's really smart.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

Yeah, you know, really smart guys don't have to be pretentious, they don't have to talk words, yeah, obscure the the the simple message of something to make themselves look smarter and withhold understanding from other people. That's not very smart. A real smart person, it's like my friend Billy Puffenbarger, who I thought was retarded. I ran cross-country with him. His dad was a math professor, and I thought, how did this math professor get such a retarded son? That that poor man, and then I show up to medical school, and there's Billy, he's wearing his cowboy boots and he's got a shaw in his mouth, and he's spitting and kicking his heels. I go, what's going on here? Did I underestimate this guy? He was the smartest guy in that class.

SPEAKER_04 51:31

He just doesn't have any pretends.

SPEAKER_01 51:35

He didn't know, you didn't have to pretend. He underestimated him. You know, that was kind of his strategy. Yeah, I want you to underestimate me. Please, please underestimate me.

SPEAKER_04 51:44

No free.

SPEAKER_01 51:45

Yeah, and I'm gonna kick your ass.

SPEAKER_04 51:46

I can tell you, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:49

Get get let your guard down. Underestimate me.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

I think maybe people underestimate underestimated me for a lot of my life.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

So I can use that to your advantage. Sun su that stuff. If people are you're gonna go into a place where people are underestimating, use that to your advantage. Yeah, don't use that to your disadvantage. Don't don't don't take that message internally that you are that lower opinion. Say, hey, I have an opportunity here because there's a there's a gap between reality and their understanding that I can use to gain an ad strategic advantage.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

And that I learned to do that in my career, I think. I think some people got it, some people didn't. But the people who got it got a lot of benefit out of it.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

Yeah, but yeah, not everybody appreciated it. Yeah, well, you intimidated people.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

Some people intimidating.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

You can't be. You're a woman with an opinion.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

Hold on, then you're a very capable girl.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

I'm a woman with an opinion. Oh, batting down the house. Hide the children, hide the dogs. All right, it's 10 o'clock. We love you.

SPEAKER_03 53:00

Thank you. Uh uh pleasure to be with you. All right.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

He's he's doing the brave and and believe it or not, the night in shining armor thing for his kids.

SPEAKER_02 53:13

Paul report back to you next week how it'll go, how it went.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

I I I like this. I'll say this before I go. Courage feels a whole lot like vomiting, but you go and do it anyway.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

Helped me.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

That's a good statement. I like it tonight.