Brothers and Sisters Episode 15

We discuss high cost of living in the US. We read from the Miracle of Forgiveness and note how the book is not about forgiveness but is a very dark view of humans and how sins are never restituted in Kimball's view of the life. Sad really and disappointing, we comment how glad we are to be away from believing Mormon leaders and their hateful world view but feel sad for our friends and family who are still victimized by these judgmental unforgiving systems. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Okay, we're recording. Hey.

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Hey.

SPEAKER_01 0:04

We talked about my Tootsie T-shirt, Queen of Barbecue, Lexington, Texas. I got a big crush on her, a barbecue crush on her.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Didn't you go and see her place and eat there?

SPEAKER_01 0:16

I want to. I haven't yet.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

You gotta go do it. Explain to everyone who she is.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Yeah. Um, well, she she was Pitmaster of the Year a few years back at age 82, 83.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

So no problem. Just putting wood on the fire. Probably chopping it down herself.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Yeah, Snow's barbecue is only open one day a week. That's uh Saturday morning. And so she gets off her school job, goes home, sleeps for a couple hours, gets up at midnight, and starts cooking.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Wow, that is some dedication.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

That's some dedication.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

So are you glad to be back or or not?

SPEAKER_02 0:52

I'm in shell shock, to be really honest with you. Everything here, it cost $80 to fill up the car.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Our our grocery bills are twice as much as they have been. I'm scared to death that I'm gonna like get a bladder infection and have to go to the doctor and spend $500, you know, like it's it's pretty crappy. And then we got a bill from the people who did our uh flood remediation for $22,000 for a bunch of shit that they didn't even do, for stuff that they didn't even do, and and for overages that are like for a house that's like five times my size. So we're in the middle of fighting that and trying to settle in a number because I'm not paying them $22,000 when first of all, it took them five months longer than they said. We I got crappy cabinets out of it, and we lost our renter. I'm, you know, I'm I'm I'm not paying that much money. If I owe them money, and I think we do for the carpet, you know, when we look through everything and and we do owe them for five more linear feet of cabinet because they didn't count both sides of my island. They only counted one side um when they did the estimate. But you know, it's the same, it's the same old, you know, let's send them a huge bill to see if they pay it, you know. And if they're not paying attention, you write the check.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Fortunately, I have a husband that pays attention. So good. And I'm mean enough to make him say really, like, if you don't, you know, I like it would be a pain in the rear to have to take them to small claims court over this, but I'm not paying it. So I will take it to small claims court because any judge could look at the fraud that that is um rampant in what they sent us.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

And and if you just send them a polite letter explaining their mistake, is that enough?

SPEAKER_02 2:51

We sent them that and then it took them a month and a half to respond. And they said, well, overages are are are common, and like we have to buy our carpet with, you know, um overages, but all of the rooms are 10 by 10 and the carpet comes in 12 by 12. So it's like, why are we but being charged overages when the carpet already is overages? You know, it's things like that. They charged us for, I don't know, five yards of carpet to go in a linen closet that's maybe two feet by two feet. You know, it it's really crazy stuff. And that's why I'm saying if we took it to court and they saw that kind of you know dishonesty in in just the bill.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Yeah. So I think that isn't your limit eight or ten thousand dollars for small claims.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Yeah, yeah. So we'd still owe, but that's about what we owe. So I would just sue them for what we don't owe them. And you know, I'm willing to pay for what we owe.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

But that but that's like thirteen, fourteen thousand.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

I know. And trust me, everyone.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

You won't get that out of small claims.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

No, I know.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

But but you don't pay them. You don't get it back, you don't give it to them and then sue them to get it back. Just don't pay them that.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Keep it in dispute.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

And if they want to um, you know, we've got our you you might get a get a a a lawyer to write a nasty letter, and that will probably do it.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Okay, and I know some lawyers, so maybe I can ask a favor or something, you know.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

You don't you don't want this to go to court, but a nasty letter.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

They don't want it to go to court because it looks really bad for them.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

But a nasty letter ought to fix it.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Yeah. Yeah. And so that's what this last letter was is it was an outline of the things that we continue to dispute, and uh uh we're not gonna pay this, you know. And we we will see you in court if it gets to that. We have no trouble. The pain in the rear is that we're gonna be in Spain. So if they don't do small claims court over Zoom, that could be a problem. Um see what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Well, you don't have a court date yet, do you?

SPEAKER_02 5:01

No, no, so who knows?

SPEAKER_01 5:03

You're you're getting ahead of yourself.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Get get a lawyer. You know, cost you pay a couple hundred bucks for a lawyer.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

You're right. And I've got a good one, so yeah, we'll do that.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Pay him for an hour or two of his time.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

And so I've had a very productive Sunday. I'm very happy.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Grocery shopping, I've done the cooking for the week, I put I made breakfast.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

I'm like, did you interpret the the sealed pages of the golden plates?

SPEAKER_02 5:34

You know what? In my book, I really want to put in 116 pages of photographs and charge extra for the sealed portion of the book.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

No, the 116 pages are the lost portions, but there's a there's another portion that was sealed that was never translated.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Okay, well, which one has fewer pages? Because I don't have that many pictures.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

116, the lost pages. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Well, and that's a good number for a printer because it divides by, you know, correctly for a printer. So I I think I'm gonna do a supplement, and you have to be 18 or older to buy the supplement.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Yeah, well, you yeah, the story with it with the lost pages is somebody took them, handed them, it was gonna have them checked out, and it's like, well, you're interpreting them anyway. If you've lost them, just reinterpret them. And then it was revealed to Joseph Smith that that was a trap.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

Because how can you remember what you've made up months ago, word for word? It's it's interesting how he could get out of any little problem.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

You're fighting the fighting against God's prophet.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

It's persecution for sure.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Persecution. I'm the victim here.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

For sure, it's persecution. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

You didn't want me to be killed by that angel with the flaming sword, surely not.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

So you have you must marry me. Could you imagine?

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

I wonder if I lived back then and I was still single. And the the problem is is that there's something that happens to women with men with power.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

And you see it, you see it in in government a lot, you see it in business a lot. It's the proximity to power. And you think that you have power yourself because you're close to the proximity of that power. But when it comes down to it, they're the first thing, they're the first ones to sell your rat's ass out.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

They're not, they're not they're not interested in giving you any real power.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

No, proximity to power and being useful is not the same thing as having power.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

As having power. Just ask any general relief society president that has ever, ever, ever lived, including Emma Smith.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Or or ask uh Pam Bondi.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

The only people kicked out, right? Females so far.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

It's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

It's interesting. It's sad. Um Caroline Pearson died, you know, this last week. Did we talk about that last week when she said the most Mormon thing you can do is put what you have left of your faith in a hand cart? If you lose your faith and keep going. And keep doing what a Mormon does.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Who is she married to?

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Carolyn Pearson.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

But she's was she Relief Society president or something?

SPEAKER_02 8:41

She was a playwright. I think she wrote my turn on a playwright.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Yeah, and an authoress, and you know, she was really well known.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

And she was very her power was through popular writing.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Right. She was very popular until she started to become unpopular. And then I think I think she got excommunicated. Well, you know, you're going through a whole rash of that now because President Oakes said it in a missionary uh training to the missionary, the new missionary presidents. He said it in a training that there's not enough excommunications going on. But then I heard this statistic that half, 50% of women who are LBS who are 30 and younger who aren't married are leaving the church.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Half.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Yeah. Well, do you remember that that big brash of academics that were excommunicated, von Brody and the others?

SPEAKER_02 9:33

And yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

How long ago was that? Is that 30 years ago or I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

But the funny thing is, is is now they're admitting to all of it. It's all in the gospel topics up essays. Like they're saying that they weren't lying.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Yeah, but that but that doesn't mean that they want somebody with a big platform.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Right. To say things that other people will hear.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

And I I'm making a prediction. Dan McClellan is like an active member of the church. He's a scholar of the Bible.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

He's he's he believes and I love him because I think he tells the truth, right? Like it feels like he's he's given it straight.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

They're gonna push him out. I'm calling it now. Yeah, is is like he he has something that he's reconciled in his mind. Um, but it's gonna go crosswise to the silly stuff they say from the stand. And the silly stuff they say from the stand, him being cross with that is what's gonna get him kicked out. I'm calling it now.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

I'm I'm you know, he and he's not gonna be happy about it.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

No, it'll be a sad day too, because he's been a he's been an honest defender, if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Well, but he's he's not he's not a uh a silly-headed apologist who just ties himself into into pretzels and says the most dishonest thing to defend the truth, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Right. He just tells it like it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

He doesn't believe in this line for Jesus nonsense.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Yeah, yeah. Speaking of, well, I'm not gonna really tell, but um we get a lot of uh, yeah, we'll get back to you, yeah, we'll we'll let you know, and never hear a word back.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

And to me, that's you're talking about the kids that want you closer so they can eject you from from from up close instead of from a distance. It doesn't sting as much if you're not up close.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

It doesn't sting as much when you're in Thailand swimming in a pool, and that really makes them upset. So now that we're close and we could have some FaceTime and we could you know make some head weight.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

That's gotta be gratifying to them to be able to reject you up close and in person.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Yeah. So the power taking advantage of that.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

And so poor Larry, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Oh man. You remember the Lucy and the football in Linus?

unknown 11:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Well, and Charlie Brown, it was Lucy the football, and Charlie Brown. And Charlie Brown's gonna kick that football, and every time Lucy pulls it back, that's exactly what this is like.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

It's exactly let me check my calendar. That was a week ago, and every day I go, Well, have you heard like this woman must have the busiest calendar in the world?

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Yeah, it's Lucy and the football. Yeah, if you if you'll do this, that, and the other meet our demands, then you will be allowed. We will deign to spend time with you.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

You may be able to see your new grandchild.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Yeah, God.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Pathetically sad.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Well, people with no power gotta take it where they can.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Yeah, that's true. And I'm sure that I'm sure that that some of that is felt, you know. I'm sure some of that is truly really felt, like there is no power, but you shouldn't have that kind of power over another person. A person gets to choose for themselves what they believe. And if they come up against things that don't go, you know, uh that go against what they've always been taught, we have minds for a reason, and that's because we get to change them.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Well, we get to use them.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Well, okay. That's kind of inconvenient.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

In theory. In theory. So are we gonna do some reading?

SPEAKER_01 13:20

All right, sure. Not so evil. All right, Spencer W. Kimball, the miracle of forgiveness.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

The miracle of unforgiveness. All right, never be the miracle of never measuring up.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yeah. All right, this is the complete restitution, sometimes impossible.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

So you know what wabasabi is?

SPEAKER_02 13:52

I do. Um, that's the what you um the the Japanese um you make it in a in a hot pot, wabisabu.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

No, it's an no.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

It is that's about yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

No, wabisabi is is an artistic aesthetic saying that it is beautiful, not because not despite its brokenness, but because of its brokenness. So they're like they'll break a cup and then they'll glue it back to the game. It's Japanese and it was gold, and and you're showing it's beautiful, it survived and it's reconstituted, and it's beautiful because despite the flaw in it, it's still a beautiful thing. No, no, not despite because uh, yeah, okay. Not despite because it's broken, it's beautiful, because because it's human, it's beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's it's beautiful because it's it's real, it's not AI, it's not artificial. It's and there's real hazard in the real world, right? So this is complete restitution, sometimes impossible. But just keep Wabasabi in mind as we read this. From these quotations and examples, it is quite clear that the repentant sinner is required to make restitution insofar as it is possible. I say insofar as it is possible, because there are some sins for which no adequate restitution can be made, and others for which only partial restitution is possible. A thief or burglar may make partial restitution by returning that which was stolen. A liar may make the truth known and correct some degree of the damage done by the lie. So, what can be completely restored? Yeah, yeah, he won't give us, I bet you won't give a single example where complete restitution is possible.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

Complete repentance and restitution.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

So he says, sometimes complete restitution isn't possible. Sometimes, but he won't give you a single case of when it is possible. A gossip who has slandered the character of another may make partial restitution through strenuous effort to restore the good name of the person he harmed, and by taking out a billboard by the highway.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Wait their social media handle on it.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

If by sin or carelessness the wrongdoer has destroyed property, he may restore or pay for it in full or in part. If a man's actions have brought sorrow and disgrace to his wife and children and his restitution, he must make every effort to restore their confidence and pay for it the rest of his life at every family dinner thereafter.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

By never being sat by.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Somehow temper that the impulsive, yeah. It interferes with his potential of having glory added upon his head forever and ever. Abraham 326. Restitution for loss of chastity. To sew together a hymen is a very tricky surgical procedure.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Requiring no anesthetic.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

And surgeons are not inexpensive. The sheet test on the honeymoon must be performed. You see, we had sex, and there's a spot of blood. She was a virgin. Okay, restitution for loss of chastity. Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen, it's all the same.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

That rape was. Yeah. Like, go fuck yourself. My shoulders were showing, so I was asking for it.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Even in a forced contact, such as rape or incest, and as a kid, probably with incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is, of course, in a more favorable position. Not innocent, just a more favorable position. Being raped is not as bad as raping.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

They'd rather see you dead trying to defend yourself in a rape than for your.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's they said that.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

And lose your purity.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Yeah, yeah, then lose your purity.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

They'd rather see you dead.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Yeah. So yeah, that's love.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Blow your rape whistle and hope for the best.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

You need you need to fight till they take your life, is what the recommendation is. And if you want to, that's your choice, but that should be your choice.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

It should be your choice.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

I think there should be no shame in choosing to survive a violent event by whatever means you can.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

It's also circumstantial, right? Like, are you completely overpowered or are you not? Like there the there's so many degrees of what happens to women sexually now, especially with getting, you know, roofied in bumers and things like that, where you really don't have any say in what happens afterwards because you've been drugged. Like, am I not pure because I didn't fight that? Oh no, it's my fault because I was in a bummer.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Yeah. Did you see have you ever seen mad men?

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Um, I saw a few episodes of it. I don't know why I didn't watch it because it's my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

It was horrible.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

And I'm sure marital rape is high among the Mormon folks because there's no talk about consent or what consent means. You're practically given to your husband for all of his needs in the temple.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Yeah. Okay, okay, here we go. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. Then he says after that, it is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Okay, so it wasn't there it is in black and white. I don't even have to quote the TikTok. I cannot believe that sentence. I cannot, it's survive, people, survive, do everything you can to survive, be a smart. No, you're better, you're better to struggle and lose.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

You're better to struggle and be murdered than to not struggle at all.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Yeah. God, as stated throughout this book, while one may recover in large measure from sexual sins, like being rape, they are nevertheless heinous, and because of their gravity, the Lord has placed them very close to the unpardonable ones in order of seriousness. The principle of restitution is brought into focus where two unmarried young people have entered into sin by which both lives are damaged, and especially if virtue has been taken. What if you don't feel damaged? Are you supposed to now feel damaged?

SPEAKER_02 25:31

What if it was a beautiful experience? You better feel damaged. And it was great.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

And you feel a sense of calm, peacefulness, and like all is right with the world. Yeah, does that mean you're a monster? Well, think about President Kimball's feelings and all this, you know what really matters? That that poor man's feelings. In such circumstances, serious consideration should be given to a marriage for which the sin in uh which will hold the sin in one family.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

What does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 26:06

That means to keep the sin from being in more than one family, if you've diddled each other, you need to marry so that other people don't have to pick up damaged goods. Uh uh in a marriage, if you're in a family where you've been sexually abused, okay, you're better to no no no no no no no the principle of restitution is brought into focus where two unmarried young people have entered into sin, okay, by which both lives are damaged, so they're both damaged goods. Okay, so they they're both chewed gum, yeah, yeah, and especially if virtue has been taken. Okay, so that means if virtue's been taken, does that mean like by force? Like like the virtue, you're supposed to marry your rapist? Anyway, it's in such circumstances, serious consideration should be given to a marriage which will hold the sin in one family.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Oh, so they're saying you should marry the person that you diddled, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Yeah, or had sex with a forgotten. If virtue has been taken, it does it doesn't say how it was taken. Voluntarily saying if you were raped, that can totally be interpreted to mean you need to marry a rapist because you're damaged goods, and it wouldn't be fair to impose your damaged goods on someone else.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

That's terrible.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

You do you really want to impose your damaged self on someone else?

SPEAKER_02 27:28

That's terrible. It's terrible advice. Yeah, it's terrible advice. Even even if it's an innocent, you know, boy on girl, like you bind Dairy Queen and you go too far, that does not mean that you need to marry that person. It could be the totally wrong person for you. So irritating.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Why should they not marry when by their iniquitous act they have plunged themselves into an adult role? Why should they not marry? He's asking that as a um uh uh uh uh one of those kind of questions, um not parenthetical, um hyper hypothetical, whatever. Um why should they not marry when by their iniquitous act they have plunged themselves into an adult role? So you're gonna be a you're gonna be a grown-up, you're gonna you're gonna fuck, you gotta marry.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

And so and and who cares if you get along, if the personalities match, if you if you are intellectually matched, if you know if if that matters is like so you're take you're compounding, taking a mistake that was may have been a one-time mistake, and you're gonna make it eternal.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

That's not possible.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

No, no, you're making it eternal because if you're on the path, then you're gonna wait a year and then get you married in the temple, and then you're with that person forever.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

That really scared me about Jennifer. That's one of the reasons I wanted my church done because I did not want there to be any psychological possibility that I would be for eternity tied to her.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Yeah, yeah. No, I I'm done.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

No, I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Please part of my restitution is like it's not a promise, it's a threat.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Yeah, no, seriously, yeah, and it sounds like you know, this is this is the the punishment view of marriage there. We got what what an empty, what an empty, hollow soul that Kimball is. He's got nothing redeeming or kind or decent about him. This is hate. Take a miss take a one-time mistake and make it a lifetime mistake because you deserve it, because you did something adult and and you you're iniquitous.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

You did something that your hormones and your biology and that doesn't call for normal. The normal the normal um way that people grow up and learn is is through seeing other people. It's normal, yeah. So shameful.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

Yeah, you see, you're saying that well, one night stand, you you gotta marry him.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Oh my gosh, I'd be married seven times over.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

All right, this is especially true.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

Just kidding, mom.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

This is especially true if pregnancy results from the sin.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Oh my gosh. So let's put a child in the middle of all of it.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Yeah, well, that's what I did with Sarah. In this situation, it is a girl who suffers most. She must not have an abortion, for that would add serious sin to serious sin. She carries most of the burdens while the boy often goes penalty free. By whose system is does he go penalty free? The system you designed. Go penalty free because you say so. Yeah, so right, you're giving him the pass right here. Yeah, uh he says, I get I get I get off when I get off. Well, you know, the girl must go through the uncomfortable nine months with its distress, deprivations, limitations, and embarrassments. And then the pain barrassments, and then the pain and expense of delivery and the difficult life afterward. It is a cowardly boy who would not propose marriage, pay the cost, share the deprivations and embarrassment, a lifetime of deprivation and embarrassment. Yet many young men have walked away and abandoned the girl to all the devastating payments for the sin of them both. Parents frequently excuse the son on one pretext or another and leave the girl to suffer for the sins of them both. Sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, sin.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

And then even when that little baby is born, they give the baby up for adoption. The people around that baby, when that baby is developing and becoming a human, they have negative feelings towards that baby. And I believe that all of that is felt in the womb. I believe it's all part of our DNA.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

And I think that the baby is putting it negative and you know deprivation.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Every baby should be every baby is a miracle. I still believe in women's rights to choose, but that's just it, it's putting it's putting all the onus on just the complete innocent victim, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Sometimes parents of the boy feel curiously curiously feel magnanimous when they offer to pay the actual financial costs of the delivery, not taking into account that the financial is a one-time experience while the girl has the problems throughout her life and they are heavy burdens. Was this before child support was a thing?

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Wow. Wow. That's a that's a bad hand to have as a girl.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

I think I think this is before child support was a thing.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

Yeah, yeah, it has to be.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

But even now, child support, if you're smart and you have a good lawyer, you can pay next to nothing. Especially a lot of men, especially a lot of Mormon men quit working. So there's nothing to collect. There's you know, you have zero payments coming in, and then they go home and live in their parents' basement.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

That's what that's stupid.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Well, it's mean to the children. The children want needs, and it's both people's responsibility because they are both they were both there fucking.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Yeah, why why why are you punishing the kid?

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

You know, be a man, take care of your kid. Yeah, go to work. It's not gonna hurt you to give your kid money to live, even if it goes through her, who you hate, whatever. To buy the girl off or abandon her to a lifelong problem is not courageous nor fair nor right. The time will come when every individual will pay the full price and perhaps with interest, every obligation incurred, even though it was hidden or covered at the time. The young girl who sins should realize the sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, should realize that all the sorrows, inconvenience, and suffering she goes through, incident to the carrying and bearing of a child, do not fully constitute forgiveness for her sin.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

So it doesn't matter if you get a fat ass, you're still a sinner. You gain 60 pounds having your baby, you're still a sinner.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

And you have to listen to me talk shit about you.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

And who cares if you're morning sick, you're still a sinner, you deserve this pain and suffering.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

She must repent and make her proper adjustment. Let the proper adjustment, let the boy realize too that none of the suffering of the girl minimizes his guilt, but rather magnifies it. For many reasons, he may but there's no result, you know.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

There's there's no there's no other side of the coin for the boy. Yeah, for many reasons walk away.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

For many reasons, he may not be prepared to settle down to family life, but he has by his immoral act projected himself into adulthood and has brought upon himself responsibilities which he will do well to accept and discharge as honorably as he can. I might just say honorably, but as you can, it's like you do it perfectly. It's just well, it's still just the best you could do, which is not really adequate. I think you just drips with you're not adequate. He did everything, you're not quite adequate as best you can.

SPEAKER_02 36:09

I do think you need to be honorable.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

I but but the twisted way he says this, his his twisted little little white Mormon mind is sick, it's saying something nice to the dead. He is sick, yeah. He is sick, yeah. I mean, I mean, like really sick. Like the girl, he needs to find a way to total repentance, and the road leads through acceptance of responsibility, not away from it. The prophets understood clearly the weakness of men and the likelihood of their running away from their responsibilities in this area. Moses recorded the law, and if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. Exodus 22, 16.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

You just have to take a nap with him.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Poor Fanny. And again, if a man find a damsel that I have named Fanny Alders.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

Poor poor anyone named Fanny.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Or Joseph Smith, take a fancy to your fanny, and your name is Fanny. All right, and again, if a man finds a flat man. Yeah, if a man find a damsel that is a that may be why he didn't reproduce as much as he did. And if a man find a damsel.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

Wow. I never thought of that.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

Yeah. Yeah, because you just you'd expect him to have a lot more uh progeny by by DNA, and there's he doesn't have a whole lot of progeny.

SPEAKER_02 37:49

Yeah, I'd heard I'd heard things like that.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

The argument is, well, he wasn't having sex with them, they were spiritual marriages.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

No, no, he was he liked he liked analysis the the church admits it, the members do not.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Yeah. Okay. All right. For um if a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her and lie with her, and they be found, lay hold on her. That sounds like rape. She shall be his wife. God, I'm in the wrong way. Those ancients were wise. She shall be his wife because he hath humbled her. Well, put her in a he may not put her away all his days. Those ancients were just so wise. Maybe we should fund a war for them to take on Iran. For the boy, that was Deuteronomy. For the boy, perhaps the matter can be glossed over and covered up by parents who seek to avoid publicity. Gold ashamed, people will know what you've been doing. And a scandal, scandal, scandal.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

But so they ship the girl away.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Yeah, but have they realized what they have done for their son's soul when he doubles his transgression by failing in his repentance? True repentance means restitution, meeting every obligation and restoring every damage so far as is possible. Yet it is strange how many times parents, I don't see any vision of a beautiful life. It's like your life is over. Yeah, it's like a beautiful life. It's like you can you can get her pregnant, be surprised. You still have a beautiful, wonderful, loving life. I don't see any vision of that. Yeah, there's no vision of that. It's all sin and restitution and making it right as best you can.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Well, and you damaged goods, consequently, there's no forgiveness. And if and if the wife anything but forgiveness, if the wife in this situation in this narrative wants to, then they can weaponize that for time and all eternity.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

Yeah, I think that we know something that's happened to. Yet it is strange how many times parents of the boy decided the girl who was good enough for him to date suddenly became promiscuous and therefore is now unworthy of their son. Well, she's a slut for sleeping with them.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Because girls are always the ones that wanton vixen.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Strange also how few of the parents charge the boy with promiscuity and consequently encourage their son to pass up his responsibilities, even to his own detriment. Strange how many parents charge the girl with having trapped their son and now rate their boy holier than thou, and the girl not worthy of further consideration in the matter. I have known many young couples who had been loose in morals, who having prostituted each other's bodies who got paid, silver tongue devil youth. I want to know who got paid. He was just drowning in it, prostituted each other's bodies, found they were to become parents. In some instances, each party accused the other. He fucked me. No, she fucked me.

SPEAKER_02 41:36

No, he touched my Larry. Says all you have to do is get their bra off. He took my bra off.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

Each began to distrust the other, each began to hate the other. They both admitted their sin. Sin sin the pounding drums, sin. But now the boy was trying to crawl out. His parents were encouraging him to get out of it. Well, I mean, it's like the way he phrases it. Why the hell wouldn't you not try to run away from that? I don't see any any joy or vision or life in his wabi wabisabi.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

There's no making anything beautiful out of something that happened that's human that we all and and and it's not beautiful because it's broken, it's forever damaged because it was once broken.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

He sees no beauty in in broken people. They knew the many problems which marriage brings. They knew it at what at 18 or 17 or something.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

I don't know it in my age.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

In my office, I talked to a partly repentant young couple about marriage, a quiet, immediate marriage with no frills, no pomp, and no publicity. They had moved to forfeit many of those scenes when they disregarded the law of chastity.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

So do you know what that means in Mormon Speak? It means you can't use the gym for your reception. You have to have your reception in the relief society room. That's what the gym is the floors of the gym.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

You're consigned to the relief society room.

SPEAKER_02 43:31

You can walk down the aisle between the relief society chairs and get married in the relief study room and have cake and punch, and that's it. Because you have to keep it on the DL.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Okay. He was quite willing to marry when the two came in alone at first, but when he came in the second time, he had been brainwashed by his parents and he would not consider it. I urged marriage by the bishop at the home.

unknown 43:59

The girl

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Beginning now to realize her predicament was willing in spite of her fast-iminishing respect or affection for the weakening selfish boy. So the boy he asked, Why? Why should we marry? How could we marry? I have no job. I haven't finished my education. Where would we live? How could I pay doctor and hospital bills? How could we get along without a car? How could we assume the responsibilities of a family and parenthood? Then I asked some questions. Why did you precipitate yourselves into this demanding situation? Why did you why didn't you listen to me? Why did you act um why did you do the act which would make you parent?

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Um why were you human?

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Why didn't you use a condom? Why wasn't she on birth control?

SPEAKER_02 44:52

Why didn't she have an IUD?

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Yeah. Why did you engage in associations which demand home employment status? You your completely irresponsible act and your reaction to it brands you immediately as immature and a slut. You do not know the meaning of responsibility.

SPEAKER_02 45:14

You seem to well they are immature. That's the I know.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

Yeah, you seem to be highly interested in yourself and your conveniences and your desires. Are you going to run and leave the girl who's to carry your baby with all your penalties too? Penalty, penalty, penalty. Sin, sin, sin.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Imagine this though, Thane, from the child's perspective. Like if you if that child was forced to be born to those two parents and they did not get along, the child is stuck in the middle of all of that. You know, it's something that you come to an agreement that hey, we're gonna do this, we're gonna get married, and we have kind of really like each other, and yeah, yeah, we can do it.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

It's planned, but uh we I think we think we can make it, we can make it work, right?

SPEAKER_02 46:03

But to coerce an 18-year-old who's made one stupid mistake in their life to an eternity of putting a child in between you and a woman who who probably will learn to hate you.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

And you can support, yeah, it is time you both grew up and matured and faced realities. This he needs to face realities. He needs to face this situation is not the intention of either of you, but it is the result of your loose actions. You made the choice when you broke the law of chastity. See, the Mormons are really confused about what the law actually is and isn't, because they use the term law in their religion, and they think that's the same thing as secular law, and and they're all there's a lot of confusion. So you're saying that when they're a lot of mormons think not keeping church standards is is breaking secular law.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

Seriously, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

I used to, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

That's interesting. I've never I've never felt that way. I I do remember um one time when somebody I knew was at a single adult thing and somebody got too handsy, and mom's interpretation of it was she was going to be raped, and mom was like, She should have she was really smart and she fought her way out of it, you know, she got smart and fought her way out of it. And I thought, well, it that's not her fault at all, but my it was confusing to me because of this doctrine of even if you're raped, it's your fault. Even if you're raped, damaged goods, you still you're still damaged goods, and you should probably think about marrying the the fucker who raped you, you know.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Yeah, that's he said that explicitly. You knew it was wrong, you knew this problem could result, you knew my attitude about this. Now if you were going my stand my stand, you knew I'd be clutching my pearls. Now if you grow up, now if you're going to grow up and meet life's issues to my satisfaction, if you're going to be fair and just, if you're going to start a out a good life on a straight road, start now to meet your responsibilities. Well, now he's talking about a good life. Okay. Then when he's saying I don't want it, now he's now he's offering the carrot to try to entice him back in.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

The guy said, No, I'm out of here. Now he's bringing out the carrot. The good life on a straight road. When you gave up your virtue, that hour, your freedom was replaced with tyrannical fetters. Your transgression is a ball and chain, it is handcuffs, hard and heavy. You accepted shackles and limitations and sorrows and eternal regrets when you could have had freedom with peace.

SPEAKER_02 48:56

Okay, that's not the good life. I hate to tell you.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

Anytime shackles mentioned a carrot, and then he mentioned the shackles.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

So you took it to the dungeon.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

Yeah, but yeah, he got back to the negative.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

He went right back to the dungeon.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

God man, what a dark mind. Today is a good day to start a new life of mature responsibility. Cease blaming others. He's so justified. Cease blaming others, start to accept your own responsibility, make up your own mind. How is he making up his own mind? You brought this about together. Now solve your problems together. Forgive each other. And I gotta get on to my next appointment. And this I'm not really comfortable talking about this anyway. And move along and make the best of a difficult situation, but do not run away from it. You two have committed a heinous sin. Do you wish to carry this terrible burden all your days? Or would you like to be forgiven for it? To be forgiven, one must repent. Repenting means not only to convict yourselves of the horror of the sin. That must have been some bad sex, but to confess It sounds like a horror movie. Abandon it, restore to all those all who have been damaged to the total extent possible. Then spend the balance of your live life of your life trying to live the commandments of the Lord so He can eventually pardon and cleanse you. Restoring and forgiving. They did the best they could at that point, having repented, were forgiven.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

I have a comment here. It doesn't say where they got married. A lot of these couples still get married in the temple.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

Yeah, but they gotta zip it.

SPEAKER_02 51:05

Yeah, you can't say it, but lying for the Lord. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

Man, there's a lot of there's a lot of nine-pound premies born.

SPEAKER_02 51:14

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

That's a fat. I have the good awful healthy premium knowing their ABCs.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

Hmm, something's wrong.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

In the process of repentance, we must restore completely where possible, otherwise, restore to the maximum degree attainable. You will never be a bishop or amount to anything. And through it all, we must remember that the pleading sinner desiring to make restitution for his acts, a pleading sinner. He wish, you wish. Here's his fantasy coming out. The sinner comes from pleading for forgiveness, desiring to make restitution for his acts, must also forgive others of all offenses committed against him. He must never have a boundary or hold personal space again. The Lord will not forgive us unless our hearts are fully purged of all hate, bitterness, accusations against our fellow men, or any sense of rational boundary.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 52:17

I added that rational boundary myself, but you've sinned. You don't have a right to bodily autonomy anymore.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

I don't know. We've been married 16 years, and we met seven years after he was divorced. He has a child that keeps a notebook of everything that he thinks his father has done wrong since the divorce. So he has a whole book that he shares with other family members. And if you can't tell me that it's not parental alienation coming from the mother who still has like a kid holds the notebook or the mom holds the notebook. The kid holds the notebook.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

Well, okay, how do you tie it back to the mom?

SPEAKER_02 53:08

I tie it back to the mom because it comes from the mother. The the sin was sexual and it happened with the mother, but the child will not let it go because the mother will not let it go.

SPEAKER_01 53:19

Well, you're not in the room, but I'm pretty sure she's encouraging that behavior on his part.

SPEAKER_02 53:24

You think, and that's what's called parental alienation. Yeah. And I had no idea that that was even a concept until things started to really go south with the kids, and I started researching it. And it's a real problem. It's a real problem for men in Utah because they get kicked the fuck out of their kids' lives. And it's all over morality, you know, because there's no way for them to adequately make it up because you can always find another sin. You can always yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

You know, what we just read, if you looked at it a certain way, you could see how some of this could be shaming. In a certain way, in a certain way, it's possible you could feel a little shame, embarrassment, and how long does that how many years does that shame have to go on?

SPEAKER_02 54:15

Is my question.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, for yeah. And after all those years, when you've probably done the best you can, I can look at you and have a like, okay, you did the best you could, and and that's the best you're gonna get for me.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

I can see you in a public setting where there it can be no real conversation because a real conversation is uncomfortable, and God forbid we're uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

It's it's do I'm I'm really regretting uh cleaning the family station wagon with a toothbrush. I know, so that President Kimball could have a nice place to ride from the airport to the stake center.

SPEAKER_02 54:57

It wasn't just a toothbrush, I think we took Q tips to that thing. I mean, we cleaned the the living daylights out of that station.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

It was a family station wagon with with five kids at that time, and we cleaned it so it looked brand new.

SPEAKER_02 55:14

I mean, it was showroom ready, and President Kimball was in the front seat of our car.

SPEAKER_01 55:20

And and then and then Martel Bellnet.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

We had no idea.

SPEAKER_01 55:24

Yeah, Martel Belknap driving down the road. Oh, I didn't release the emergency brake, so he reaches down and he pops the hood and the hood flop flies up while they were on the freeway.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

That could that could have ended so much suffering, but if we didn't make it off the road safely, but this is a this is a faithful story because no one died.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

It's a it's a lost opportunity story. Get rid of that guy. That would have been that would have been that would have been your service to humanity right there. Yeah, and the thing that really bogs me is like because you know, you'll you look like a little Yoda, Gandhi, whatever. So cute, lovely, and you say, I love you all the time, and this is love, and then you sit back and you read you know what they actually say and think. There's nothing to do with love in there or a happy, fulfilled life.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

Is that forgiveness?

SPEAKER_01 56:21

No, not that. And there's the book's title is completely misleading, it doesn't have a damn thing to do with forgiveness. He doesn't have any forgiveness in his heart, never did. Yeah, not a bit.

SPEAKER_02 56:33

It's all it's all judgment and it's all keeping score, and it's all alienate alienating the person that everyone else thinks is sinful.

SPEAKER_01 56:43

And after do and after everything, yeah, and after doing everything you can, you still kind of disappoint me.

SPEAKER_02 56:49

Yeah. Not kind of disappoint me. You disappoint me so much that I can't even give you a straight answer about whether or not you can see me. You know, it it's it's very pervasive in the Mormon culture. It's not just in my husband's family. I've seen it over and over with the guys that I've worked with. You know, I sat next to a guy who got divorced, and his he was not able to go to his own daughter's wedding. She called and asked him to pay for it, but you know, he was not allowed to attend.

SPEAKER_01 57:23

Thankfully, Mormon wedding's not very expensive.

SPEAKER_02 57:26

Especially if if you haven't sinned before and you can have your reception in the gym. Then that helps with the costs. I'm so glad we're out of it, Thane. I'm so glad. And every day that I am, you know, um Larry's sister who I adore called it was her birthday. So I think Larry called her. And she was the only person to ask why do you have some of the feelings that you have? Like the only person out of all the people that we said, you know, and I nobody knows my status, nobody's asked. But um, and I find that interesting.

SPEAKER_01 58:11

Yeah, they don't like to talk about difficult things.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

Well, they they blame me still for the uncomfortable feeling that is always around when we get together as a family.

SPEAKER_01 58:24

Larry's siblings.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

The the kids blame me for being uncomfortable. But but Catherine, you know, how dare you love our dad.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

That really makes me uncomfortable. He doesn't deserve love.

SPEAKER_02 58:40

If if people could be loving like that and ask real questions and have real conversations, you know, at the end of it, she's like, I have I have some things that I put on a shelf myself. I think everyone does. It's just whether you or not you're honest enough to pull the things down off the shelf or something dramatic enough happens in your life where you're forced to look at your shelf um before you can really make it.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

You just realize the shelf's not working for me.

SPEAKER_02 59:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

I'm not getting, I'm not getting enough out of that.

SPEAKER_02 59:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:13

I realize when I really had problems and I really needed help, I needed some ministry, they had nothing for me. Oh, you have an emotional problem. Well, we can't help with that. Oh, you need oh, you're you need binding up because you know, a divorce is tough and you need some encouragement to keep going. Oh, we can't do that. We can only we can only offer you our our negative. Yeah. Yeah. You need support. Well, that that's that that's asking too much. Emotional support or kindness or or this has been a really hard, terrible thing for you.

SPEAKER_02 59:46

Like acknowledge what happened. Yeah, I think it was because of her position and who her father was because he was such a powerful political figure.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

Whose father?

SPEAKER_02 59:58

Jennifer's.

SPEAKER_00 59:59

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:01

That that that was um something that they're that's patriarchy going against patriarchy, and uh you got caught in that as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:09

Yeah, it wasn't a fun divorce.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:12

No. I wonder, is that it's like people who are her sister was our lawyer, and we just both signed yeah, we had the same lawyer. Yeah, did you get out of it okay?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

I just I basically had custody of Marielle's and paid her child support.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

Well, so she could drink her royal crown royal.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:34

That's fine. That's fine. And you know, I'm willing to pay if I can spend time with Marielle's.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:39

Yeah, absolutely. It was totally worth it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

I if all I had to do was give her money so I can spend time with my daughter, totally worth it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

Those were wonder years for us, too, because of aunties and grandma, you know, we got to spend time with Marielle's and we all totally worth it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:55

Yeah, totally worth it completely, even though it's not that's not what the law was designed for. For my personal situation, the the thing that mattered was getting to be able to spend time and influence her life and give her some stability, yeah, yeah, completely worth it. I do I'd do that. I would I'd I'd do it again.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:16

You know, um we're a little bit over time, but I'm gonna tell a story really fast. Um Judy lives with Diana, and the reason that Diana said, I will never let Judy go to a nursing home is because that night when Jennifer shot the neighbor, yeah, they took Mary Ellis over to Judy and Jim's house and said, Something hot is going on. We don't know how far and wide this is gonna go, but this child needs a place. And Judy said, Bring her to me. Oh and Diana said from that moment on, she goes, I was forever grateful because we had a safe place to put Mary Ellis. Yeah, it was really sweet. Yeah, that's being a Christian, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

Yeah, right, right. That's right. That's having your that's having some priorities and some values that matter.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:04

Yeah, yeah.

unknown 1:02:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:06

All right. Well, I'm gonna go. I love you, Paul. I love you. Have a really great week.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:10

All right, bye bye.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:12

Bye.