YOU’RE SO STRONG- She Became a Widow, a Single Mom, and a Solo Business Owner Overnight

My next guest is Leslie Harter-Berg! She Became a Widow, a Single Mom, and a Solo Business Owner Overnight.
No warning. No diagnosis. No time to prepare. Just a pool in Palm Springs, two kids under three, and a suitcase she didn't unpack for two years.

She built a company anyway. Raised her boys. Wrote a book. And made me laugh harder than I expected to in a conversation about grief.

Her book is called You're So Strong. It's not a compliment. It's the thing everybody said when they didn't know what else to say. And Leslie spent years trying to live up to it before she figured out that was never the assignment.

This episode is about grief. It's about creative work. It's about what it actually looks like to build something when the person you built it with is gone. And yes, there's a tampon story. It's important.

Get the book. Get the audiobook. Get both and read along at. Trust me on that one. 😉

You're So Strong is available now. https://a.co/d/05m2IrWO

Follow Leslie:
 Instagram → https://www.instagram.com/leslieharterberg/ 

and her work at:

hardercreative.com 

vidsforwids.com 

Follow Cody
Instagram → https://www.instagram.com/cody.d.williams/

YouTube →https://www.youtube.com/@CodyDWilliams

Facebook → https://www.facebook.com/codynow

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

My next guest is Leslie Harterberg. Her husband died while she was on vacation. She built a business, she wrote a book, and somehow during this conversation, I managed to cry in laughter. I wasn't sure what genre to use for this trailer. So I just decided to use all of them.

SPEAKER_06 0:21

From the first moment he met me, he was in love with me.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

How many attempts did he make?

SPEAKER_06 0:27

Five.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Gosh, that's resilience.

SPEAKER_06 0:30

He was like so fully convinced that I was the one. He would say, I can't believe I got you. We were sitting by the pool. He just said, Leslie, something's wrong. All of a sudden, I was a widow. Holding Ryan's phone and his keys and his ring. I sort of thought that I would go numb or have shock, but I felt like I had every possible thought going at once. This is a really uplifting, funny story about my husband dying on vacation. My husband's dying. You're gonna make fun of my camp-bomb box? Okay, so I have this big box and I don't care about anything, right? And my dad's like, oh, can we be a little more discreet? All started busting up laughing. Barry Ryan, like, right when we got married, he quit his job. He would always say, like, life is too short for boring.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

If you're just tuning in, welcome to another episode of the Talents Podcast. I'm here with Leslie Harderberg. Do I say that right? You can just call you want to call you McGregor so bad.

SPEAKER_06 1:49

You can call me Forever McGregor.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

So a lot of people call her uh perfect Leslie.

SPEAKER_06 1:55

No, nobody.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Um I call you my favorite McGregor, and I've called you that for years.

SPEAKER_06 2:01

That is that Do you not remember this? This is embarrassing.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

You don't remember that.

SPEAKER_06 2:05

Yes, but I want to share a story about you because I've known Cody since birth. I don't think you were there.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

I wasn't there.

SPEAKER_06 2:13

No, you were there because you were.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

I was at Julia's birthday. That's probably what I was doing.

SPEAKER_06 2:18

I want to say you're like seven years older than me. Six.

SPEAKER_03 2:22

Oh, I'm 44.

SPEAKER_06 2:23

I'm 37. Someone do that math. Seven. Addition's hard. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Seven.

SPEAKER_06 2:27

Wow. Did I nail it right? Yeah, you did. Okay, seven years older. Um, and we carpooled together to school, and I was painfully shy. And you were painfully obnoxious. You Jackie get a spit dick every time. Um, which is really funny because I I was this shy little girl, and I have three very loud, obnoxious, Cody type boys now. Well, actually, the three-year-old jury's still out.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

But the other two very bold, very bold like you.

SPEAKER_06 3:01

And so I remember there was a time where we were you were probably in high school, and I was probably in first grade.

SPEAKER_03 3:07

What year did you graduate?

SPEAKER_06 3:09

2006.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

So six years. So you were in eighth grade when I was a senior.

SPEAKER_06 3:13

Yeah, okay. So maybe you're in middle school. I remember you seeming so much older, and I was very young. I remember being like seven.

SPEAKER_03 3:20

And you were adorable.

SPEAKER_06 3:20

Okay, I think you were in the van, and I think we were in Patty Gilbo's van. She was carpooling all of us.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Was this an Aerostar? I know that doesn't matter, but ours was an Aerostar. That's what I remember.

SPEAKER_06 3:31

But I remember often whoever was driving us, the mom, would go run errands and leave us in the car after I'm mire all the time. Yes. Which now that I'm I get that. And we had a middle school babysitter, so we were fine. I remember school boy. Okay, so we roll, you roll down the window. We are in the car waiting for whichever mom it is to get stuff at the grocery store. And you roll down the window and you start yelling at strangers passing by. And I am so embarrassed. Like I wanted to- I remember this. And you're pretending that you're blind.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 4:08

Are we allowed to say that? Yeah. In 2026. You're pretending that you have a disability. I did that. That you're a blind and you were just asking like what the weather was. You're asking, you were yelling at strangers and asking, and I remember you were like pulling me into it. Uh-huh. And I was just like so traumatized. It's weird because you don't have a lot of memories for when you're young, but that's one of the ones that have been.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

That was Fred Myers on Mill Plane.

SPEAKER_06 4:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

I have not thought about that moment ever. You were just like, this is my when you just said it, it all came back to me.

SPEAKER_06 4:38

Yeah, you were pulling me in. You're like, I remember friendly.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

I remember where we were parked. That's so whoa.

SPEAKER_06 4:44

And I was dying. I was like, I want, yeah, I want Patty to come back in the car. Please come back. Please come back. Please come back.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

See, but I feel like as we got older, you were the normal one to me. And I and I love the McGregor family. Like, love like McGregor family. Uh your dad was my hero. Like when my dad left, your dad came and picked me up for school every morning. Like your dad was my hero.

SPEAKER_06 5:09

My dad's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

Yeah, like he's he's but you were the normal one to me. As everybody got older, I was like, oh, Leslie's not shy, she's normal.

SPEAKER_06 5:19

Oh, yeah. That was that is I always felt like I was very shy. I was shy, even without my family around in high school, in classes, teachers could not bribe me to talk or share. And I went to call my first two years in Seattle at the University of Washington. I didn't meet a soul. I just stared at my feet and shuffled around.

SPEAKER_05 5:44

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 5:44

So I really was painfully shy, but I think a lot of that came from my family. They're not they it's not that they're weird, it's just that they are all human personalities. Big personalities.

SPEAKER_03 5:57

Your family is a a sitcom.

SPEAKER_06 5:59

Yeah. Like giant personality.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

They're all characters. I love your family so much. But you were the normal one to me. And that's what it as you got older. That's what I realized. I was like, oh, Leslie's so great because she's just so normal. And I got to see it when you first started. Do you remember you would make um camp videos for me?

SPEAKER_06 6:18

Yes. Like camp roll videos? Camp roll videos? Of course. I remember every video I have ever made. There's a lot.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

Do you still have those?

SPEAKER_06 6:27

Oh gosh. I that was like, were we burning those onto movies? I I don't know. That was not everything's kept up. There might be some on Facebook.

SPEAKER_03 6:37

But you, oh my gosh. Every I would look forward to camp just because I'd be like, what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do what video are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_06 6:44

Yes. Um Annalise. You and Annalise. My younger sister and I, there would always be some sort of like gun guns involved. I we really like to push the envelope. Someone always got hurt. Um, and we got weird. And you also liked getting weird. So yeah, I was quiet. I was quiet, but I also like to make it.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

You know what's great is because you were always quiet, I never knew what you actually thought of me. So now I'm getting all the uh all the dirt.

SPEAKER_06 7:11

I thought you were very funny, but I remember when you were younger, I was like always mortified that you were gonna like prank me or put me into an embarrassing situation.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

This is actually a therapy session to work that out right now. I I I'm so sorry that I caused that kind of fear in your life.

SPEAKER_06 7:29

Forgive you. Forgive you right now. No, I think so. What's funny is that this kind of is gonna tie into the book, but with my family, I my dad was always like, Oh yeah, you I never had to discipline you. You're saying like the perfect one, the good one. I think I was just like hidden enough in my room that any flaws or you know, sins that I had, um, I was like, oh, if you're just like off the radar, nobody notices. Yeah. Um, and so I think I I learned very young how to be what other people expected me to be. Um, and it took a while, it took till my second half of college when I went to film school to learn that oh, people also expect you to talk occasionally. So I came out of my shell, I feel like, second when I went to film school and I had to share movie ideas. That all that.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

How much did Ryan help with that too?

SPEAKER_06 8:27

Ryan, I think I was already getting into that bigger personality. But again, when I was younger, I was making the camp videos. I was always making videos and I loved getting creative and weird. It was so fun. So, in a certain context, I always was comfortable being loud and out there, but in a lot of other contexts, I was like, this would have been nine-year-old Leslie's like worst nightmare.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Right here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 8:51

Oh my gosh. This is healing.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

We're healing right now.

SPEAKER_06 8:54

We are doing so much work. This is good work.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

Okay, so I have this book in my hand.

SPEAKER_06 9:00

There it is.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

You're so strong. Um, I want you to walk us through. Obviously, I know this story, but I want you to walk us through this story um in a second. But I just have to say this you are such a freaking good writer. Like, ridiculously good writer. Thank you. Like, so I I like um I like audiobooks. This is my hack. I'm gonna give you a hack. You're everyone needs to get this book, but this is what you need to do. You need to get the audio version and the real thing. Okay, and then you put on your headphones at 1.6 speed.

SPEAKER_06 9:36

Oh, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

And then you read the book while listening to it.

SPEAKER_06 9:40

1.6 is quite fast.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

No, it was per it's perfect.

SPEAKER_06 9:43

They make you read slower.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

This is this is this is like what I have now. Okay, but less. You uh the first uh time that I listened to it, I was on a date with my 14-year-old Charlie, and I was like, Do you want to listen to chapter one of this book that my friend left? So she's like, Okay, we start playing this, and it was like we just kept driving because she was just like, Can we just keep listening to it, Dad? And I was like, Yeah, she's like, this is just really good. And she was like kind of emotional, and I was just like, Oh, this is the sweetest thing. So, um, if you're gonna get the book, get the audiobook as well, and then do that. That's a hack. Oh, okay. That's great. Also, also, I found an error.

SPEAKER_06 10:26

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Can I point this out?

SPEAKER_06 10:28

Shut up.

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Okay, on page 70. Um, you say at the age of 19, in the audiobook, you say 23. Okay, so I'm gonna need some explanations here because the people want to know the truth. Like, what's real? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 10:45

The book is wrong.

SPEAKER_03 10:47

The book is wrong.

SPEAKER_06 10:48

They were supposed to get that right. Now there were two errors we caught when we were reading it aloud. And while we were reading it, me and the producer caught it, and she said she was giving a note to before it went to print. So there was another one, and I wonder if it's still wrong.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

I felt good about myself that I found that.

SPEAKER_06 11:06

This is do you know I'm I'm not gonna be able to sleep for a week knowing other errors in this. Thank you. No, there was another error. It was in the Reinhardt Republic Flosser, and if it didn't, I never checked if they changed it.

SPEAKER_03 11:22

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 11:22

It was before it went to print that we were.

SPEAKER_03 11:24

Obviously, I'm just giving you a bad time.

SPEAKER_06 11:26

I'm not gonna be able to sleep. Okay, wait, wait, wait. It's about the coffee. The coffee craft. I said that it had an orange lid, and she was like, No, the orange lid of coffee crafts is just for decaf. And I was like, Well, that makes sense because I only drink decaf unless I'm having a bar.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

Did they take that out?

SPEAKER_06 11:43

I don't know, but now I'm panicking. Okay, Phil does them. Okay, they fixed that one.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Well, I was listening to it and I was like, at the ripe age of 23, and I'm like, if that does not say 23, that says 19.

SPEAKER_06 12:03

I love it. Honestly, it was 23.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

I'm just trying to validate that I actually read the he was 23 because actually, I you know what?

SPEAKER_06 12:13

I'm gonna go and talk to them about the extra reprint. Everyone's gonna need to buy the second edition, the updated edition.

SPEAKER_03 12:21

Here's what made me feel good about it is Perfect Leslie had a little tiny flaw. And I was like, Oh Cody, she's human. She's human, people. Um, no, I'm not saying that to freak you out. I just it's too late. I wanted you to know that I I was like, this is the biggest way to validate that I've actually read this.

SPEAKER_06 12:38

Because people would be like, No, I read your book, but you read at the end.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

It's so good. But I listened to it and I read it, and I was like, that doesn't line up. So I marked it.

SPEAKER_06 12:47

I also listened. So I have to go verify which one's right. I don't know if we read it both ways. It said that she died when he was 19.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

Mm-hmm. It's on page 70. Anyway.

SPEAKER_06 13:00

Okay, we're gonna figure it out.

SPEAKER_03 13:01

Go on. Okay, so tell everybody now that we've uh established all this.

SPEAKER_06 13:04

Threw me completely. This podcast is over.

SPEAKER_03 13:08

She's gonna start throwing things. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_06 13:11

Just like the man in the parking lot of Fred Meyer all over again. We're gonna need a reading.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

I'm sorry. I thought I thought I was helping you. I really did. I thought I was helping you.

SPEAKER_06 13:20

It's great. Thank you so much for reading in.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

Can you tell tell us about this story?

SPEAKER_06 13:24

Tell Okay, so this is a really uplifting, funny story about my husband dying on vacation. Um no, but for real, um my husband Ryan, who you knew as well, um kind of the greatest person ever. Yeah. Such a big personality. Um, and he and I did everything together. Our lives were very much merged. And I talk about that in the book a lot. How it was like, oh, Ryan and Leslie will do it. Leslie and Ryan. The first day that we met was the first day of work, and they split a job in two because they were like, oh, they're both perfect for this job. So right away we we became kind of two parts of a whole. And we were also the kids' church pastors together, and we started a business together. There was really little that we did apart besides like the guy's night and the girls' night. And we had two kids, so we parented together, and we went on vacation to Disneyland and then Palm Springs. So we were gonna do like the Disney all out three days, stayed in the park with my sister, Natalie's family. And then we were we went to Palm Springs because that was gonna be like the vacation from the vacation. We were we were gonna relax.

SPEAKER_03 14:51

That first part sounded really stressful to me.

SPEAKER_06 14:53

And sit, yeah, it's not it's not like that fun to have a giant group at Disneyland and go hard. But we had to like go sit by the pool, relax. We were gonna do the real vacation part. And when we were sitting by the pool, Ryan had a like freak random brain aneurysm and stroke, and we didn't know what was happening. He just said, Leslie, something's wrong. And we moved as quickly as possible, but there was really nothing that we could do. We found out that he had what was called an AVM, an arterial veinance malformation that he was probably born with. That nothing could have ever happened, like could have never gone off and detonated, but it just happened to. Wow. Um, and he was on life support, and then we had to decide when to take him off. And then I had to fly home from Palm Springs to Vancouver, Washington with my three-year-old and my one-year-old. And all of a sudden I was a widow, a word that I really hadn't thought about at all. I mean, I I thought about it when it came to like westerns and old ladies.

SPEAKER_04 16:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 16:11

So I was a widow and I was a single mom, and I was a solo business owner, and I had to kind of face this life without him and come home. And I never unpacked, even unpacked his suitcase. I like waited two years to do that. Wow, I came back with all of our Disneyland stuff. It was just very surreal. It's already surreal. It's always surreal to like lose someone suddenly, but when you're also in another place that looks nothing. And it's not familiar, it's not home, it's not the desert is the exact opposite of the Pacific Northwest. So it's just it was a lot. Oh the first year was a lot of what? Did that really happen? Did that happen? And so the book is about my grief and life after Ryan died. Um, and it's about, like we talked about, this personality type that I have where I want to know what people want, what people need from me. Um, and so I really wanted to do grief well.

SPEAKER_03 17:13

What's the assignment?

SPEAKER_06 17:14

The assignment was being strong, and that's why I called it you're so strong, because I was looking around, kind of panicking, like, what does everybody want from me, even from the very beginning at the hospital? And right away, people are sending that text and that DM, and it's in the sympathy cards. Yeah, you're so strong. I I don't think it's bad to say that. I think that for my personality though, I took that on as my own like personal challenge and was also like, oh, this is what you guys need from me. You need me to grieve in a way that makes everybody comfortable, that everyone feels okay with. And that also is maybe slightly inspiring in some way. Like, you need me to spin this story, you need me to make a message from it. And so the book is really about like my embarrassing attempts at doing grief well and learning how to let that go and fall apart.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

I love that. It's so good. Do you when when everything went down? How it it feels like it happened obviously so quick.

SPEAKER_06 18:24

Like yeah, I mean it was it was basically he dropped dead, but it was two days because he was on life.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

The fact that you're able to say that is really like I don't know if that took you a while to say or but in that moment, like where was the tension right away? Were you trying, were you like in denial at all before you took him off life support? Um did how how quickly did you accept that?

SPEAKER_06 18:51

The weird thing is that I I think when I imagined going through the worst thing ever, or like that worst day ever, I sort of thought that I would go numb or have shock because you hear that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 19:07

So I thought, like, oh, that whole day will be a blackout and you just can't really function. But I felt like I had every possible thought going at once. And I felt like every possible stage of grief, like denial, bargaining, acceptance, depression, is like all swirling there at once. And at the hospital, it was like I couldn't escape my brain. It was playing out every possible scenario of like what my future, like, am I gonna be expected to get married again? Like, am I gonna like choose to just be a widow single forever? Am I going like what's gonna happen next? What is the like I was just playing through every possible, I was like drowning in my own thoughts. Um, so I wish that I would have gone and shot that. Sounds kind of nice.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

I well, I asked that question because you like in the book, like the way that you tell it all, like the the way you recount it, is it's so vivid, it's so detailed. And I'm just like, wow, like I think in that situation, most people would be like, it's all bar. I don't I don't even remember.

SPEAKER_06 20:11

Well, I know that I think that's the interesting thing about sudden death. I talk with lots of widows all the time, and sudden death widows, we don't have years and years of caretaking or dealing with the diagnosis and processing what's gonna happen and talking about death with our spouse and like facing the terrible, unimaginable circumstances. We have a day, an hour, two days, maybe that first week. If they were I've talked about this a lot with others, where it's it's like we are living five years. I for me, it was 48 hours. So I felt like every detail was just so sharp. And I was I would go to bed at night for that first year and like recount what happened.

SPEAKER_04 21:00

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 21:01

And what's interesting is that some of these details are wrong. You're not the first person to catch an error. There's a major error because I didn't have my family read this before it came out because I wanted to make sure that it was my story, right? And I start the book with saying, like, this is my version of the story, and other people that were there and lived it alongside me have a different version, and like, but this is my version that I'm telling. And so I didn't have them check, but then my family, Annalise, was like, Hey, you said that I slept at the hospital. Because there's a story where I noticed her sleeping at the hospital, and I swear to God, I saw her on these plastic chairs sleeping and staying the night, and it was my mom.

SPEAKER_03 21:43

Really?

SPEAKER_06 21:44

And I feel really bad. Like my mom is the one that stayed the night. So thank you, Sue. Thank you, mom. Um, but I made Annalise look like a hero that she wasn't. She's like, I went home and went to the house.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

She was the hero.

SPEAKER_06 21:56

But, anyways, I just say that to say I I have. Have these details very much set in my mind. But my family also has their own from that day. Cause my sisters really lived those 48 hours alongside me.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:10

And they were doing their own play by play. And so they have kind of different facts. And so my one time my therapist was like, maybe you should go through and make a timeline. Like that would be helpful. Like one it was around 1 p.m. that he had a stroke. And so I did things like that. I don't know why. I think it's because you're trying to like have it set in that it's real, that it really happened. And you're trying to maybe get to that acceptance point. Like this actually happened. So you're like recounting what happened. And so I was ready to write the book.

SPEAKER_03 22:40

I knew Do you think that people it's people try to not do what you're doing because it feels too painful or it it feels like they're accepting something?

SPEAKER_06 22:52

It's definitely a personality type. I mean, I didn't write this book in the first year though.

SPEAKER_04 22:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:57

So it's been seven years, and I wrote it, you know, it takes a while for a book to come out. So I wrote it five years after. And I don't I think I would have written a different book if I'd been called on to write a book.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

Like right away?

SPEAKER_06 23:13

Yeah. And it probably would have been a little bit immature in some way. So it was nice to write it after I had learned some lessons. I think that book would have been maybe an interesting book on its own. But I think that first year, you're really like, I have it worse than everybody. My life is worse. You guys don't even know. Lost. I think the book would have been like that. You're angry. Like, look how bad I have it. Where I one of the journeys that I talk about in the book is realizing, like, oh, this didn't just happen to me.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

This happened to everybody around me.

SPEAKER_06 23:50

They're all grieving too.

SPEAKER_03 23:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 23:51

But I that took a while to learn. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

I feel like um this was obviously we've been so connected for so long, but it felt like you had this just massive wave of like community just trying to support you. And it was funny because like in the book, you talk about like people want to help and say the right thing and give money and all these kind of things, and then you're but you're just like, all of this is it's blood money, you know.

SPEAKER_06 24:19

And no, I I would call it blood money. Yeah, that's why I referenced people gave me so much money in my GoFundMe. I was now and like a few years after, I was just so overwhelmed by that. Like, wow, thank you. Because really, like I I don't I didn't spend it responsibly. At the time, I was very upset about it because Ryan and I were self-employed. We were like scrappy business owners. We had one salary split in two, like that never ended for us.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

Oh my gosh, you're right.

SPEAKER_06 24:50

Because we're both working the same business while parenting and kind of juggling both of those. Like money wasn't we didn't have a ton. And so I was angry that we were able to like pay off things and that all of a sudden I had this cozy bank account that Ryan and I didn't grow together. Like we had kind of plans to build this business, and and it would have been something that he would have been so stoked about, but it only existed because he was dead.

SPEAKER_04 25:21

Right.

SPEAKER_06 25:22

And so I hated him.

SPEAKER_04 25:23

Right.

SPEAKER_06 25:23

And I was I had a bad attitude about that for sure, which my mom would say things like, Oh, look at so and so. They gave a thousand dollars. That's a lot of money for them. And I'd be like, Oh my gosh, send it back. Is it a lot of money for them? Like, I don't want it. I was like blowing it on Amazon for things that didn't fit. They would just come in the mail and I would like throw it in a pile.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

Just coping.

SPEAKER_06 25:45

Like that. When did I buy that? Like just a lot of bad retail therapy. I was like buying, I would like want to go on a trip and just pay for all my friends and pay for the beach house and pay for like we're going to the spot. Everyone's getting $500 treatments.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

I I remember this. I remember so I'm very intuitive in that sense. Like I get I get the dynamic of like what you're feeling in um I could so I'm the guy that wants to like try to do it in a different way, but I remember at the memorial. Like, I don't I mean, you talked to everybody that day and your whole family was sick. But I remember for me after the memorial's over, you're sitting on like the steps with Wit. Who's so sick, he's super sick, and you're just like just whole and you're just like and I I just wanted to hug you because I was like, I don't know what else to do right now, but I'm here and I'm really sorry. And um but that memorial service was I know if you've heard this. Anybody that was there would say that's the the I've never cried, laughed. It was the best memorial service I've ever been to. It was so beautifully done. The joke about um um probably from James. James who the hell is Rory who who that was to be honest, I got the video because like I think we was it live streamed or something? Yeah, there's somewhere I like brought it back and showed it to all my family because I was like, guys, this was you just have to watch this. This I've never cried and laughed so hard.

SPEAKER_06 27:28

It like and felt great at the time I didn't have much thoughts on it. I was I was so out of it. And that feeling that you're saying of like seeing me on the porch or the stairs, it's interesting at a memorial when you're a widow and you have a little kid that's so sick. Yeah, and you almost feel like you're traumatizing everybody by having to see you. I remember that feeling because I was like, oh no, Wit has a really bad fever. For those that haven't read the book, we all got the norovirus right around the memorial. So Wit has like a terrible fever, and I was like, oh no, I'm gonna go on that stage. He's like glued to me. He's not gonna want to get if someone's gonna try to pull him off. He's gonna scream, and this room filled with a thousand people, they're all going to be traumatized. And I remember that feeling at the memorial, like, I wish that we could have been more strong and less traumatizing for people, but that's just where my head went at the time. Um, but I was so happy later. I watched the memorial now a bit because of Pete, our mutual friend, who lost his dad when he was 10. Um, he told he didn't have much from his dad, but he did have the VHS of his dad's memorial, and he said he would rewatch it like every month. Like, and he just wanted to get to know his dad, and here was a group of people. And when Pete told me that, when I organized the memorial, that was in my head. I was like, I need as many people to talk about Ryan as possible. Yeah. And I need them to make sure that we hit all these aspects of who he was. And I knew that because of Pete, I was like, if this is what my boys have, I don't know if they're gonna have his personality. Pete is like very unique, that he's like a real nostalgic guy, so sentimental. I don't know if William Rory they're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

But you just want to give them that option.

SPEAKER_06 29:27

But um I wanted to make sure that I had that in case they were the type of kids that were like wanting to study their dad one day. And so I have re-watched on my own, but I rewatched it like I I watched it with Wit when he was six. That's also in the book. Um, and then I just recently watched it with Rory, and it's still it's everybody did such a beautiful job. And it does, it's nice that I have it because also if someone doesn't understand who Ryan was, I have something that I can just point to.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

Like Yeah. Oh, it was it was so well done, and I think obviously it showcased the creativity that all of you guys carry, like Ryan, you, um, everybody that like rallied the harder creative team that you guys had. So you guys started um a creative agency.

SPEAKER_06 30:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 30:24

Um, how many years before his death?

SPEAKER_06 30:26

We started it a year after we got married. So Ryan was like a huge entrepreneurial type. Yes. And I do remember the first time we went on like a non-date date, because we were in the I had him in the friend zone for quite a while.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

So I do remember this. How many attempts did he make?

SPEAKER_06 30:44

Four, five, the fifth one was successful.

SPEAKER_03 30:48

Gosh, that's resilience. No, I know. That's resilience.

SPEAKER_06 30:51

I feel like men don't like pursue girls like that anymore. No, that's when I was that's a lost art. I was like, oh, I got options. Now I'm like, if somebody does that to a girl, I'm like, take it.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

Take it. Somebody's that crazy about you.

SPEAKER_06 31:05

No, he that was such a gift of Ryan that he was like so fully convinced that I was the one. And that he like from the first moment he met me, he was in love with me. And you get used to that feeling. Like we got married, and he just was always looking at me like I can't, he would say, I can't believe I got you.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_06 31:30

And when that was gone, that that was the hardest part for sure. I didn't realize how much of my identity I kind of put in that and how much security. Like all these insecurities like flooded me after Ryan died. And like, who am I if I'm not the one that Ryan loves? So that was like a journey that I had to go on, like finding identity in Christ, like outside of like validation for Ryan. Yeah. But at the same time, what a gift he gave me.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 32:00

He really loved me.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 32:02

And I got off topic. We're talking about our business.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

No, I we needed to address that because I think in a lot of ways, what you're saying is like to me, and I could be wrong, but what I feel like I see when I play that back is because my my friendship with Ryan was actually prior to you.

SPEAKER_05 32:18

Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

And him and I were like the two guys that always got chose to like MC wedding receptions.

SPEAKER_06 32:23

Yeah, or like, you know, I went to a lot of weddings alone because he was the MC.

SPEAKER_03 32:27

Yeah, no, it was that was like our our friendship, but it was like, you got this one, you got like that. Was the joke. When I started dating my wife, um, I would come up to the PBC campus, and I remember they did some um Americ PBC American Idol.

SPEAKER_06 32:46

Oh my god, and he was the host.

SPEAKER_03 32:48

And he was the judge.

SPEAKER_06 32:48

Oh, the judge.

SPEAKER_03 32:49

He was the Simon Cow. Oh gosh. And I'm trying to like impress this girl I'm dating. So we did this whole skit that we wrote for it, and he like just mocked me like Simon would. And I was so like, shut up, Ryan. I'm trying to impress this girl.

SPEAKER_06 33:06

But he was like usually pretty kind. Like, oh no, no, he was always really like it's super bonny.

SPEAKER_03 33:12

And and and I looked at him and I'm like, Ryan. And he was like, dude, it's Simon. I am in character. I'm like oh, okay, fine, I got it. Wow. Um, but I remember just the joy and the kindness, the creativity that he carried, how he made everybody feel like around him was incredible. So when I think about you like shy, quiet Leslie, yeah, my version is like Ryan helped bring all of you up. Yeah. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 33:42

Yeah. I mean, in like I said, I think film school did a bit of the work. When I met Ryan, I was like, I want to write screenplays, I need to finish my screenplays. And he was the type of personality that wanted to do anything created. And so he was like, Yes, let's go write together. So right away, we started writing together once a week. And like I was saying, on this like first non-date date, he's just telling me about everything he wants to do. Every he wants to write books, he wants to start businesses. And I'm like, Okay, what businesses? Like, you just want to start businesses. I'm like a very specific, let's get the actual assignment. And he's like, just businesses, like you just start them and then you sell them and you start another one.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Oh, I love him.

SPEAKER_06 34:25

But what are we selling? What are yeah, how is it making money? So that was a lot of our relationship that carried into our marriage. And he just had so many dreams and ideas, and I was a lot more pragmatic. And so, very Ryan, like right when we got married, he quit his job.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_06 34:44

My dad was not happy about this, but he was like, I want to do more, I want to do bigger. When I first met him, he had quit his job because he wanted to do something creative.

SPEAKER_04 34:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 34:52

And so he was like begging me from the start of our marriage to quit as well. He's like, Come on, we'll do something together. Come on. And I'm like, I'm paying the bills, I'm paying the rent.

SPEAKER_03 35:02

Mr. Creative.

SPEAKER_06 35:03

And he was just like, We had there's so much more that we could do. And every day I'm just going to the office and like I was like, okay, it took him a year. He finally convinced me because I was like, show me how you can make money doing something, like, pick something. And so he was the reason that we started harder creative. But I was kind of the pragmatic, like, okay, this is what the business could be. And because I was a producer, I like took on that role for our business. But what's wild is that I I would have just been the perfect little employee until the day that I died. I was just ready to do what other people wanted for me. And I would have probably still been jumping around to different like creative agencies and been an employee, employee. But when Ryan died, being self-employed and having harder creative was like such a gift. Yeah. Like that was really the inheritance that he left.

SPEAKER_03 36:00

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 36:01

Was that he went for it.

SPEAKER_03 36:03

He started that business that he talked about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:06

Yeah. And and I would have never had this the financial security that I had because I probably would have had to immediately go back to an office. Or I I didn't, I wasn't, I was a single mom, so I was like, I didn't want to work 40 hours a week.

SPEAKER_04 36:20

Right.

SPEAKER_06 36:21

But with Harder Creative, like I could kind of set my hours, and I've ended up like growing the team after you died because I was like, okay, I won't do all the roles that Ryan and I did. Who could do this role? Who could do this? Like, how could my place so in that first year I started doing it and it was sad my work was like very connected to him. It still is. That's yeah. What's weird is that I did get remarried again. Spoiler alert. So there's that part That is in the end of the book. Yes. Um, but there's that part of losing a husband that gets complicated when you have another husband.

SPEAKER_05 36:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:00

And the romantic parts I think are less the big part of my grief now and like companionship. But I miss him so much when it comes to creativity and cooperation. Yeah. Like whenever I write something, I like wish that I could bounce it off of Ryan. Because you really were like really strong writing partners. And when there's a problem with clients, it's this funny, silly, boring things. Yeah. We loved, we loved making stuff. We made commercials. It's not super sexy. Like we made dog food commercials, right?

SPEAKER_03 37:36

Oh, some of your videos are the funniest things.

SPEAKER_06 37:39

But we had so much fun doing it. Like we're selling products, which who knows, that might be the devil's work advertising. We want to get into narrative, but we're doing that. But we have like a whole team of people who are collaborating together. We get to push ideas, we get to try, and we like have control. And that was always his thing, is that he Ryan was like wanted to have creative freedom. And so I really love what we do, but I miss him so much. And that's like my week to week, day-to-day. I feel I feel the whole of Ryan not there.

SPEAKER_03 38:15

Did you um with Harder Creative, did you take some time off?

SPEAKER_06 38:20

Not that much. I I did take a look at it.

SPEAKER_03 38:24

I mean, part of that's just coping, right?

SPEAKER_06 38:25

Like I took six times.

SPEAKER_03 38:27

I just need to get back into it.

SPEAKER_06 38:29

I love work and it might be a problem. I don't I've tried to think about that with God. Like, how does this the work-life balance? But I do think I can offer something to people that are that struggle to like find joy in work. I love helping people find their joy in work because I do believe work is part of heaven, right? Yeah. It's part of the society. Yeah. And it's it's we are made to work, yeah. Especially creating.

SPEAKER_05 39:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:01

Right? We're made in the image of God and God is a creator. So I I feel like even when I'm doing very secular work, I love it. I just feel like I am alive and I'm having so much fun. Um, I do have to work on like how much work I should be doing on a given day because relationships also are hugely important. Um, so I I love it and I don't remember where we were starting.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Well, I think the the love work. Well, what you're saying is um I've been studying a lot lately, like the difference in your like work-life balance and work-life integration. And it's just this idea that the work that you're doing and the rest of the things that you love, your family, your kids, all those kind of things, it's kind of just this ebb and flow of some weeks you have a project, and that project requires longer hours, but then the integration part of your life is like I'm gonna catch this on the other side. And you you know what I mean? Like you just know it's not forever.

SPEAKER_06 40:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:06

The thing about creative projects is like there's a start and an end date.

SPEAKER_06 40:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 40:11

So I think that probably helps.

SPEAKER_06 40:12

But I think that Oh, I know what I was talking about that I didn't I love work, so I didn't take that much time off.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Okay, yeah, that's what it was.

SPEAKER_06 40:19

I didn't take that much time off. You can edit all that out when I forgot.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

We're good, we're good. I totally remembered. I can't afford an editor, so we're gonna just have to start.

SPEAKER_06 40:26

You're shredded or what are you talking about? Um, okay, so I I love it so much. So for me, even though my work was very tied to my grief, I ran back to it as sort of a lifeline.

SPEAKER_05 40:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 40:42

I I took six weeks off. And because I'm self-employed, I got to decide sort of when I started. And my clients are all so sweet, right? They were grieving too. And so they were like, whenever you're ready. So it wasn't there is that risk when you're a business owner. Like, are they gonna go away? Will there be clients?

SPEAKER_01 41:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 41:01

And I did feel that because now I was financially responsible for my family, even though people gave me money, which I'm so grateful for again. I wasn't at the time, but later I was like, wow, that really did help get me through. And one thing it really did was help me take risks with my business because Ryan and I we were afraid of spending too much money on resources and contractors to edit videos and someone else to produce. And we were taking on as much of it as possible to take as much out of the fee, right? And because I had that sort of cushion, I was like, I'm gonna take bigger risks. I'm gonna hire people to do all these roles. And I my team became like a team of six instead of just me and Ryan and like occasionally Daniel on set instead of three. I like doubled it because I felt like, oh, I have this sort of pocket of money. If this blows up, I can scale back.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

You're fun.

SPEAKER_06 41:56

And what happened was that it was huge, it helped us grow.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 42:00

And that also made me a little sad at the end of the year to see how much we had grown. And I was like, oh, if Ryan and I had just gotten a loan or something, or or kind of got some way to get that cash up front, how it does really free you up to kind of take some risks. And you saw I saw the fruit of that.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

Um, but which I would think that Ryan would be really proud because he was wanting to build, he was wanting to go start companies and businesses and that entrepreneurial side of him. So I'm sure he's like super proud.

SPEAKER_06 42:32

I don't know how it works. I don't know how it works either. And he write, do you know?

SPEAKER_03 42:36

Yes. Can you let us know?

SPEAKER_06 42:38

Auntie Wright, let us know. I always say, like, I hope that he's not watching because that feels like kind of weird and like voyeuristic like repeat. But I and I don't want him to see everything, but just some, just some part. Also, it's like, oh, when we see each other again one day.

SPEAKER_03 42:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 42:56

Are we gonna be talking about the commercials I made? It's really strange. But I do feel like when we we get some big swing, like this year, we did the biggest project that we've ever done. We had 50 people, you know, permitting, and we have trailers for the hair and makeup, and we have like four grip trucks.

SPEAKER_03 43:16

Kind of like this podcast.

SPEAKER_06 43:17

It was exactly like this podcast, like a crew of a hundred. Yeah. Hi guys.

SPEAKER_04 43:21

Thanks.

SPEAKER_06 43:22

Um I just like during that whole thing, I just kept thinking of Ryan. And I was like, he would have loved this.

SPEAKER_03 43:32

So when you look back at what you guys started together and then what you've continued, what have you learned from his death and this entire and and your journey together and building that? What have you what have you learned that you now implement into heart of crave today?

SPEAKER_06 43:53

I think that the biggest thing that Ryan taught me was to go for it. And that was something that I said at his memorial. Somehow I had the mind to say anything. I don't even know how I came up with stuff to say. I I hadn't even for 10 days. And I was throwing up, but I was like typing it um the night before. And I was like, I hope this makes sense. But one of the things I said I remember was that Ryan was always like, just go for it. When someone had their big creative idea, and I said something like, If Ryan were here and he took you out to a coffee shop, he would say, Go for it. Go for it. And that's something that he really taught me how to be a risk taker. And yeah, maybe he did make me into not shy Leslie.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:39

No longer shy Leslie. Except every now and then I am talking to people.

SPEAKER_03 44:43

I think there's fruit. There's such fruit from what you're building now, where it's at now, that is so cool because it it is. It's like a testament to some of the things that he wanted, that he instilled. And you're living that out. Maybe even subconsciously sometimes, because you're like, I don't know. But like it's amazing to see where you've taken that. And that I do think that in business a lot of people get stuck because I don't know, we're in our own way. Right? Like our own limiting.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

We're afraid of failure.

SPEAKER_03 45:19

Whatever. Whatever it is.

SPEAKER_06 45:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:21

Um it feels like you've been able to break through that that ceiling.

SPEAKER_06 45:26

No, I do feel like a lot of it is Ryan, like trying all the like going for the book and doing Bids for Wids, which is like the nonprofit where we tell widow stories. That's all very Ryan because I think before I wanted to know exactly how do you make something successful before ever attempting it.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 45:48

And now I see that it's like, oh no, it's really just showing up every day and doing it.

SPEAKER_04 45:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 45:54

And just trying something and making something. And so whenever people are sort of stuck, they're stuck with that project they've been working on for years and years and years. They haven't put that like first iteration out. Yeah. And just try to put something out.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:09

And just throw things at the wall and see what sticks. Like take that step forward.

SPEAKER_03 46:13

I think I'm guilty of like wanting it to be perfect.

SPEAKER_06 46:17

Same.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

Before and just like just just launching, just doing, just going.

SPEAKER_06 46:24

I mean, that is the way that the internet and the world is right now. Is that some of it's sad because there's not there's a lot of content. Not everything is like amazing. But it is a the reward game right now, is showing up. If you just show up and you make something and you get creative, I also think that stopping and remembering the fun of it and doing it because it's fun and creating is fun. And there's that like magic part of it. That was also very Ryan, where it does it is work, but wow, you get. Yeah. You get to do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 47:03

And I think if you can hold on to the fun and release the results and just keep showing up, eventually something does happen.

SPEAKER_03 47:12

Your what you just said is so powerful in that I think I think a lot of us, a lot of the times, we don't connect our passions and our creativity with how we also make money. Like a lot of people live in this divide of like, well, those are two separate things. Like I have to go do this job that I hate Monday through Friday, but in the evenings and the weekends, I'm doing the things I love. And it feels like what you and Ryan started was oh no, we like to do this, so we're we're gonna just turn it into our jobs.

SPEAKER_06 47:46

He would always say, like, life is too short for boring, yeah. Yes at work.

SPEAKER_03 47:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 47:50

And so I do think maybe there's there's a time and place when you have to do a boring job to like for your family, and there can be beautiful things in that. But I always feel like when I'm doing something boring, I just think of it as like funding the creative thing that I'm doing. So it's still connected to it, and I can find joy in it in that way. Like, oh, this is funding this thing that doesn't make money yet.

SPEAKER_03 48:14

So tell me about um vids for wids.

SPEAKER_06 48:18

Vids for wids. Did I say that right? Yeah, vids for wids. Vids for wids.

SPEAKER_03 48:22

Um, what's the mission of that?

SPEAKER_06 48:25

That is really just to help widows feel less alone. So, you know, people want to know what to say to widows. Things like you're so strong, everything happens for a reason, and all of those things there, they're not super helpful, and there's not a lot you can say that's helpful. But the one thing that really actually helped and was like a lifeline at the beginning of grief was just other people's stories, other widows telling very specific, having like dark humor or just telling about a very specific moment that was like, I get that. That actually like helped me get through. And so I decided to kind of take, you know, what I already know how to do, make videos. And then this desire to want to help widows, like I was already being connected with widows all the time. And then I knew that other widows helped me at the beginning. So I was like, oh, I should just create this resource where it's a little bit funny, it's a little bit weird, but really the mission is to help widows feel less alone by like telling other widows' stories.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

I don't I never knew how good it feels to laugh and cry in the same setting. Like, so good. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I left Ryan's Memorial just like I just feel like I went through a therapy session and a comedy show, and like I it feels like you're able to just get stuff out that's like it's the best feeling.

SPEAKER_06 49:57

I was like my favorite movies are sad and funny, yes, our favorite TV shows. Like, are the comedies that make you cry? There's nothing better.

SPEAKER_03 50:07

No, there's nothing better.

SPEAKER_06 50:09

I it it does, it just feels so good, and I think it's because it's so human. Yes, nothing is all sad, and nothing is all funny without sad.

SPEAKER_04 50:18

Right.

SPEAKER_06 50:19

And I remember after Ryan died, grabbing a lot of books and going through, you know, the internet and posts and and feeling like a lot of Christian widow content was very sentimental, sappy, um, inspirational.

SPEAKER_03 50:38

No dark humor.

SPEAKER_06 50:39

And I was like, this is beautiful, but I I can't take this in right now. Like, this is actually just making me mad. And I just didn't feel it didn't feel human or connected to my experience because when Ryan's at the hospital on life support, my sisters are cracking jokes about tampons, right? It's like it was just there, it was funny and sad. And I know a lot of people want to say when you're cracking jokes in your worst moment ever, that's a coping mechanism, but I don't believe that. I just believe it's the most human thing to do is to laugh and cry and laugh and cry and weave in and out of it.

SPEAKER_03 51:16

When in the book you talk about um the BOB.

SPEAKER_06 51:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:20

What is it? BOB?

SPEAKER_06 51:21

I'm so glad you prunged through that. Yeah. As one of my male readers.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

Well, I have five daughters, so that is true. Um so nothing's nothing's uh nothing's but it was really fun listening with Charlie. We're literally driving around and she's like, This is hilarious, dad. I think she asked me, is this awkward for you? And I was like, No, this is hilarious. But your dad's comment in the book you share the story about when he walks in and he's like and he you're holding this box in your in your lap or your hands or whatever.

SPEAKER_06 51:50

Like right after he died, we are in the waiter room. He my dad's like, okay, we need to decide what we're doing next. He's like leading us, you know. Right. My dad is a little bit more serious and I love your dad so well. Oh, he's just a tender, oh, he's the best.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

He always is saying, Cody, you gotta smell like the sheep, Cody. Exactly. I'll tell you that much, Cody. The martyr is what the nickname is. All right, Cody, you and me, Matt, are gonna smell like the sheep, okay?

SPEAKER_06 52:17

Honestly, he he he's lived his life going for the you know, the last. Yes, the last will be first, and you know, are strong. And so, yeah, he's the beautiful dad. Yes, but he has four daughters, he's outnumbered just like you. Will you share that story? Very serious moment. Ryan has just died, and we're all sitting in these waiting room chairs, like we we can leave the hospital now. Like we did it. I'm like holding Ryan's phone and his keys and his glass. No, I didn't have his glasses yet, and his ring. And I have this huge box because it was like that was the only thing that I had in the way. I spent the night there. The only thing is like Ryan had bought it at the store on our trip. So I was like, I need tampons, and it's we're on a trip. You bought one like this big. And I remember they were like the extra large tampon. And I remember even my sister when she first came to the hospital, she like made like classic Julia comet. She came in, she's like, whoa, orange. I was like, my husband's dying. You're gonna make fun of my tampon box. Okay, so I have this big box, and I don't care about anything, right? Because my husband died. Like, I I don't care, I couldn't care less. And my dad's like, Oh, can we be a little more discreet?

SPEAKER_03 53:38

But in the buildup of the story, I love how you're like, dad's finally gonna speak.

SPEAKER_06 53:43

The pastor, the our leader, our leader is gonna speak, and that's what he says. Like, uh, can we be a little more discreet? And then we're all like, Give us that my sister's like, we just needed that. We just all started busting up like it doesn't, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_03 53:58

It's so healthy, it's so healthy. I just think I I agree with you. I think sometimes we need to laugh more in the midst of what feels like such pain. Tell me this. Um, I don't I don't say this to be critical to the church, but I think people want to get it right, they want to support you right, they want you know, they want to say the right things, and so we have this intention, but like the intention, the motives are right.

SPEAKER_04 54:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:26

But um now that you've gone through what you've gone through, like what's your advice to like leaders and pastors and I'm a huge, I don't have a lot of bitterness to my church.

SPEAKER_06 54:38

I'm a church kid. I always say I went to church during COVID. Like, yeah, that's how much I love church. Yes. The minute they let us go with masks on, I was there. Um, I so I don't have I'm so grateful for my church. Yeah, of course. Even the the weird prophetic words and the things that people came up and shared to me and the awkward comments. I'm grateful for those too. I think that it's better to say something dumb than to not say anything at all. There's if anything, I just laughed, you know, when people said things. And like I said, I didn't mind you're so strong. I think it just more did like a brain, like weird, I've gave myself a stupid assignment. But I feel like I always say just show up when in doubt and don't say, don't ask, let me know if there's anything I can do. Just come up with something really specific, and you might get it wrong. Like someone brought me a Costco thing of protein shakes that I hated and tasted terrible. Um, they got it wrong. But like, guess what? I remember it. I remember someone leaving me that. Yeah. Like people did my roof, people like mowed my lawn and all those things. And I they're not gonna give you thank you cards. They might not even be grateful because that thing you're doing only happens because someone dies.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:10

But will they feel loved? Absolutely. And I I'm so when I look back on all the ways that the community showed up, I'm just like overwhelmed with gratitude and like maybe I wouldn't have made it.

SPEAKER_03 56:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:23

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 56:24

I just think it's such good perspective because everybody wants to get that right. We want to support you right. We want to help you get through it. In in the book, you talk about the one of the first times you're back at church, and it was like a lot of people didn't know what to say. Well, they were told they were told not to talk to you. Is that what it was?

SPEAKER_06 56:42

Someone from the mic, I don't know if it was Pete or my dad, was like, hey, Leslie need like gave her space. They said something from the mic, like, let's not bombard her with like things that are gonna hurt her feelings or anything like that. So basically, when I came, I felt like they were all like afraid of me. Yeah, they were afraid of breaking me with their comments or their hugs, and so I did feel like there was like a radius around me where I was like, Oh, there I'm not safe.

SPEAKER_03 57:11

Wow. But but that's so good. I just think it's good for people to hear. I I think people want to get it right. And it's like just just show up. And I agree, I think that statement of like, what can I do for you? It's so hard to answer because I'm putting it on you.

SPEAKER_06 57:28

Well, yeah, I mean the grieving person has a lot to manage, like that's and now I'm putting it on you, like and now they're gonna manage their support. It's very unlikely that they will hit you up for something. They're not gonna hit that person up. But I think about even my mom, like, I in the book, she shows up every day and does my laundry. Like, she did so much for me, and I would get mad at her because of her little comments and her little like she would say the wrong thing, but she kept showing up and do it. Say like keep showing up and saying the wrong thing. Say the dumb thing. Yeah, do the thing that's maybe not that helpful, like set up something in their yard that like accidentally ruins their plants. I don't know. It that doesn't really matter. It's just like knowing that there's so many people you're like forcing away, you are so surrounded by community, yeah. That that is huge, and I'm so grateful that I had it.

SPEAKER_03 58:21

Yeah, that's so beautiful. If you um what's changed in you about I don't know, I'm not gonna like what's the number one thing that like but but I'm sure there's dozens of elements or aspects of life that's changed for you. Um and maybe the way you think or the way you see things or the way you go for things or the way you do things. Um what are some of those things?

SPEAKER_06 58:50

Because of grief, because of loss. I think that when you go through something big, you know that anyone could die. That you're gonna die. Life becomes death is real more fragile. Yeah. And that's a superpower. And that's really if I do like the before and after Leslie, that's the difference.

SPEAKER_04 59:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 59:14

Is the like noticing. And so I think when it if we're bringing it back to creative projects and stuff, like I am just so grateful for anything that I get to do. And the end result is not that like writing this book. I have no idea how many it's sold or how many it's going to sell. I just can't believe I got to write it.

SPEAKER_04 59:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:34

And the joy in writing it, and then with people, just even literally like reaching out and touching people and feeling their pulses warm. I don't know that people exist. And I feel like that is the biggest change in me post-loss. And that's really I don't know if you can know that until you've gone through it.

SPEAKER_04 59:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:58

And the not cool but cool thing is that everybody is gonna go through that. Like you're gonna lose somebody in your life.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:06

And so you will, if you haven't yet, you will get that superpower. And I think now, seven years out, it's like trying to remember to harness that. Cause it's really easy to get in a route race and to get caught up in the concerns of this world and to get caught up in like the people pleasing expectations and feelings of failure and all that. And then I just now can I know where I can pull myself back to, pull myself back to 2019. Yeah. And that feeling and to just knowing how fragile life is, and that this person that I'm mad at or holding a grudge over, like they're gone tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:42

What am I doing?

SPEAKER_06 1:00:43

Yeah. So I think that that really is. If if you can find that, if you can learn that, it's huge.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:50

Well, Les, this book is so powerful, and I promise you that um because of this podcast episode, there'll be at least four more books I can't.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:02

But they're gonna also get the audiobooks.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:04

I can guarantee, yeah. Eight, because because you're not allowed to get this book without the audiobook. Honestly, that is a hack. And and you have a great reading voice. So that's like knowing you and then hearing you. It was just it's it's a super power way to read a book, guys. So um, Leslie, thank you so much for sitting down with me and hanging out and catching up. Thank you, Cody. Thanks for thanks for coming back to me even after my my young childhood.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:31

I feel like a lot of healing took place.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:33

Yeah, I feel I feel like we've gotten through a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:36

Yeah, and you didn't prank me here.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:39

And um, can we just talk about this really quick? You're remarried.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:43

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:44

Saul. So real quick. I knew Ryan. Um I knew you did hood to coast and then I get to meet Saul. I kind of trick Saul. Does he know I tricked him? Is he mad at me about that?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:56

Did you prank him too? No, I do we need to get him in here too. We did hood to coast.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:00

I was on the guys' team, you were on the girls' team. This is when you guys were dating. I think you were dating.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:06

No, we were married.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:08

No, you were not married. Because he told me he was about to propose. So I know that because he told me that.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:14

Okay, he wasn't on the team then. We were when we were dating, he took my kids to the beach. Right. He like wrangled them and organized stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:22

So, so I I fly in, I bring my big van that Shannon drives for the girls so that our team has like a good, comfortable van. And Mort's, we're like down a guy because Neil got Neil got COVID.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:35

We weren't married yet.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:36

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:37

Oh, it's so funny. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:39

And um in Neil in Neil got COVID. So uh we're like down a guy, and I'm like talking to Mort, and Mort's like, we're at somebody's house doing like a spaghetti feed before everything starts. And Mort's like, I'm like, what about Saul? And he's like, oh, he doesn't want to do it. I'm like, let me go talk to him. And I've never even met the guy. But I was like, so I go over there and um and Mort's like calling people off, like, let Cody just talk to him, let Cody just talk to him. So I don't even remember what I said, but I had an extra pair of running shoes, and I quickly got over whatever Saul's, you know what? I just said, hey, what if you just came and did like one?

SPEAKER_06 1:03:21

Yeah, you guys really tricked us.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:22

Like, what if you just did like one? And he was like, I could do one. I could probably do one. I was like, Yeah, you should just do one. And then I'm looking at more, I'm like, just keep going. Because you it's if you've done head to coast, it's impossible to stop. It's too much fun.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:33

Oh, he loved it. He's so grateful in me.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:36

So I felt bad because it was like this trick, but then I really liked him, and we had a I got to spend a 24-hour window with your future husband. That's wild. And he was wearing my shoes, and he looked better than my in my shoes. Then I still have those shoes.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:52

Last small fees of all.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:54

I just remember going like, this guy's ridiculous. Like he's just like, oh, I don't really run, I haven't trained, I'm not really ready. And then he comes and he does three legs and he kills it.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:04

And he's just well he's in shape, but he wasn't running.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:06

But then the best part was this after we're all tired, we get done. Um, I come back and I'm getting my stuff at like your house or whatever, and um, and he's he's out in my van with his vacuum.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:23

Danny Tanner.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:24

I'm like, and I'm like, oh dude, you don't have to do this. Like, all that he's like, no, no, no, we made this mess.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:29

Man can detail the car.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:30

It was so, but I just I love that I get to have met him in that capacity because I don't know him super well.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:37

That's all you need to know about him.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:38

But great at cleaning. I got to spend this concentrated time, and it was while he was vacuuming it, he's like, Yeah, I'm gonna propose, or whatever. Like he he like so I felt like so excited and connected to like your new future, even though I'm like, I still feel like I'm family, even though I don't see you as often as I would like. You are but um, but just talk about him really like the gift that he's been in this whole journey, because that is it's a pretty amazing part of this story.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:07

Saul is is a gift, and it's funny that you bring up vacuuming and cleaning. I mean, I bring that up a lot in the story. He's an architect, he's like a perfectionist, and everything must be clean and perfect, and he creates beauty out of you know, ugly homes, he transforms them. And so he was really funny to come into my situation, which it was really quite a mess. Three years as a single mom and kind of letting a lot slide and kids are eating weird food for dinner every night, and the baseboards of my house completely ripped off. And I just started like getting rid of furniture that was getting ruined and not replacing it.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:45

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:46

So when we're dating, he's like, What is this house? It was like a house of horrors to him, I think. But he came and he really not just like physically wrought beauty to my life, like he remodeled my house. We met while he was remodeling my. My kitchen. But he also brought so much beauty metaphorically, right? Like he he just knows how to like create moments and romance and all it's just it's very like a typical rom-com story that I was just this mess, and here like glides in this architect, and he's like, Here, let me help you. Now, does it create some tension that I'm quite messy still? And he is like very yes, but I'm so grateful for him. And for he has that personality. There is a personality type that can come in and adopt kids that aren't your kids, yeah, and take on that like non-bio dad role. That is a huge sacrifice. And he just is so game, and he he wants to come in and like immediately he jumped in, even while we were dating, he's like, Can I do the bedtime routine? And I was like, Whoa, I don't know if I'm ready for that.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:56

But then all of a sudden, my kids weren't getting out of bed five times a night. I don't know. He's just brought such a gift to my life in so many ways. And with this book, he's just been this huge cheerleader about the whole thing and every step along the way. And he's like made it possible for me to write the book with the kids. And so very grateful for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:15

Saul, Saul is um, I have a friend Derek Johnson, who is he's blonde, blue eyes. I call him like a human Kendall.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:23

Because he literally looks like a human Kendall.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:26

Saul's like a dark-haired version.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:28

Tall, dark, and handsome. Yeah. Saul's very Kendall-esque.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:30

Yeah, he looked literally. I'm like, this guy's like perfect.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:33

There's like nothing.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:34

When he first showed up, rolled in the scene, I was like, oh, that's not my type at all. I want like the scrappy like basement guy that's like writing and like scruffy and did he shower? I don't know. Like that was my Saul's like three showers a day. And I was like, oh, he's not my type. He's like ABC's The Bachelor.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:52

He's such a gift.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:53

But he broke through.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:54

He broke through.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:56

And I was like, you're actually exactly what I need. He really is what I need. He's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:01

Such a gift. I just love the I don't know, just the story that there is life on the other side. Yeah. Of death and grief and hurt. And yeah. Um, you really are so strong.

unknown 1:08:15

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:16

I hate to say it, but it's true. Leslie, thank you so much for being on the podcast with me. Thank you. And I'm I am serious. Let's go blow up her book cells. Get the audiobook, get the physical book. And how else can they follow along in this journey? If if if you're a widow.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:36

Yeah, VidsforWids at vidsforwids on Instagram, vidsforwids.com. Um, and for my stuff, Instagram probably, Leslie Harderberg, um, LeslieHarderberg.com.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:48

And if you have a creative project that you want to help with.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:51

Oh, a commercial.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:52

Yeah. If you're looking to do a commercial, harder creative is the bomb.com. Do we still say that?

SPEAKER_06 1:08:59

It's so bomb. It's so tight.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:01

Tight bomb tight. Yeah, go go look her up. She's amazing. Honestly, Leslie, you're one of the most talented people I know. And I'm not just saying that. I'm so excited that you're on my podcast. I'm so excited that I get to know you and watch your story. And I'm just so excited to see where you're at. So thank you so much. Thank you, Cody. You're the best. You're the best.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:24

Oh, we're still doing that too. Bomb.com.