Possibly the Most Interesting Man You've Never Heard Of

Mark is one of the most quietly remarkable people I’ve ever known and in this conversation he shares the kind of wisdom that only comes from lived out experience. 

We go deep on identity. What proximity to large sums of money actually does to a person. The real cost of mastery. Why most people are knocking on doors they were never meant to open and one question that reframed everything for me:

“Every person lives their life from an identity — whether they admit it or not. It will affect everything you are and every decision you make.”

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Nothing creates a perspective quite so much as close proximities to large sums of money. Every person lives your life from an identity, whether they admit it or not. God, when you made me, you created me for a very specific purpose. When you introduce me to someone, what do you say about me? Having a clear understanding of what you feel like is your identity with the Lord is critical because you'll live life through that lens. It will affect everything you are and what decisions you make and what you do.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Welcome to another talents podcast episode. I'm Cody Williams, and uh I'm here today with quite possibly the most interesting man you've never heard of. Because he's not super active on social media, but he's very, very interesting. Uh Mark Bourgeois, do I say it right? Very good. Um, Mark is a friend, he's a partner, uh, somebody that I have a massive amount of respect for. Um, so Mark, thanks for being with us today, man. Thanks for having me. Um I I I'm I'm being a little cheeky with my my statement of the most interesting man you ever heard of, but you do have one of the most unique career paths and journey that has brought you to where you are today. And um, I'd love for you to just let if we could just start there, man. Could you just give us a little bit of your your career journey? Um, because it's such an interesting journey.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Sure. Um, well, the career wouldn't have happened without my wife. So Melissa and I have been married in about four weeks. It'll be 41 years. Wow. And so, yeah, I'm very, very thankful for her. Come on. And so we've got four adult kids. I have two boys, 38 and 36, and two daughters, 33 and 31, and six grandkids, including the You have six grandkids? Most recent born last Saturday. Are you serious? That's right. Yeah, yeah. Our second grandson. We have four granddaughters and now two grandsons.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Dude, congrats. I did not realize that was serious.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Yeah, that's a man. I'm very thankful. Um, so yeah, we uh we got married straight out of college three weeks after undergrad. And um the first uh 13 years of my career was in the pharmaceutical business and healthcare. And I mentioned to people many times that um unfortunately I had a the wrong theology of work. And what I mean by that is I grew up, I came to faith as a sophomore in high school, and my perspective was that there was a big distinction between secular and sacred. That if I was going to be a serious believer, then I had to go into some kind of ministry. And so, um, but that wrong theology, um, I was pretty miserable for about the first nine months uh out of college. And um, a guy that I worked with gave me a little pamphlet, I'll never forget it. It's called Why We Go to Work, 40 pages, and it was the theology of work.

SPEAKER_04 3:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

And the understanding that God gave man work before the fall got more difficult after the fall, thorns, et cetera. Um, but the reality is that God gave man work as a way to partner with him. And so that freed me up uh to actually consider God, what do you want me to do? What would my career path look like? Um, because maybe I'll represent the gospel through a business career, not through a pulpit and a microphone. And um so I was very fortunate, even within a Bachelor of Arts degree, undergrad. Wow. I got a job in the pharmaceutical business, which was completely a God thing. And I was in that industry 13 years. I was very blessed in the mid-80s through the 90s until 1997. Um that industry invested a lot in its people back then. And so I was fortunate, got to go to a lot of universities, incredible training, did my MBA as part of my corporate life. And then um I worked for a company called Warner Lambert. And we launched Lipitor, the big cholesterol drug that if people anybody in the audience that's my age will probably remember. What's it called? Lipitor. Lipitor, okay. Yeah, it became the largest drug in the world. Wow. The largest is trivia for you. Um, the largest single healthcare transaction ever is when Pfizer bought our company, Warner Lambert. Um, the total purchase price was a little over 90 billion. But this is back in 1997. Yeah, 97, 98. And then I think I think, you know, they bought they bought a bunch of stock and they ended up rolling into the position. So I think they may have announced the transaction in 2000, but the reality is the largest deal ever in the history of healthcare. Wow. So I was very fortunate. They invested in in us, Melissa and I and our kids, we moved five times all over the country. And um, and so we came back to Tennessee. So we've lived back in Middle Tennessee. I went to high school here in the 70s, and we moved back in '97. Okay. And at that point, I'm praying what to do next. And um, I got an opportunity to work on Wall Street. And I'll spare you a lot of the details, but the bottom line is I was very fortunate to be offered the opportunity to help be one of the early pioneers in the private equity investment banking world. And so I did that for uh about 26 years. And we did a lot of all over the world, uh, of eight and a half million frequent flyer miles, if it does anything. Oh my gosh. Eight and a half million million. So my family, I wanted my kids really to grow up here in Tennessee, but New York is where you have to be. And so um I had several pretty senior jobs on Wall Street uh uh in Manhattan. I had an apartment there for a long time. And uh was there probably two weeks out of four, and the other two weeks would have been somewhere else, London or Zurich or Hong Kong or something. Wow. And um we're just very blessed that, you know, it was early days. And a lot of times, you know, people can say it was all their whatever unique brilliance of something. I was just in an environment that was early with the adoption of private equity by institutional capital. We didn't deal with any iNetworth families, um, but we dealt with large pension funds, insurance companies, sovereign wealth funds, endowments foundations. And um, they were adopting really alternative investments and private equity being the mainstay uh early. And so I was able to be part of that ride.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

So better than what were what was your um what was your role? What were your titles what role did you play? So I was if you're you want to say who you worked for or whatever, but I'd love to know like what roles did you play?

SPEAKER_00 6:56

I was the head of North America for UBS Investment Bank. Just a small little bank. Little bank, yeah. And did that in North America and worked with some amazing people. Um we had a great team. I think we did a really good job. I was there almost 10 years. I was at Lehman Brothers as a senior managing director uh the day it went to zero. Wow. 2008, 2008, September 15th. And I was only there about 11 months. Um, but um yeah, I wasn't your eight fault. Hey, right. But um uh in each of the you know roles, you know, I was fortunate to learn a lot. Um I went to Credit Suisse. Um, I was a gold bed of distance. Another small little bank, a little vocal bank. I was a gold bed of distribution there and the uh CEO of the Americas for Asset Management. Um again, very fortunate. Um had a lot of people that I was able to work with. Uh and I worked for a couple of boutiques. So anyway. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Did you have um a lot of people that worked under you?

SPEAKER_00 8:02

In different, yeah, in different roles. Uh Credit Suisse probably was the largest group of people that worked for me in that era. Um so but anyway, yeah. So I've hired a lot of people, let a lot of people go as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

How many people do you think you had under you at that time?

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Well, in the Americas, I mean, there were different reporting lines, but in aggregate, you know, that's a couple thousand people total. Wow, something like that. Wow. I don't know. Um, you know, they certainly didn't all talk to me. Sure. But um, but I had, I think I had probably um somewhere around 20 direct reports back then. And then they had people underneath them, except for the usual org chart.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Wow. What was um what were your age range when you were doing that?

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Oh, uh, that probably was when I was 30. I think I started working in New York when I was 36, 37, something like that. Um yeah. Uh and then really And now you're 45. So now I'm 45, yes, exactly. Yeah. Um so I've been out, you know, been gone for uh a few years. Um so it's total about 27 years I was up there.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Okay. Yeah. I feel like um so much of my relationship with you is watching so so you well, I guess let's just finish out, you know. Um I don't know that you it you would I I would never I would I've I know you well, and I would never say you're somebody that I've seen just retire and set off into the sunset because you're always sort of doing things, but um where did you go after that and maybe why?

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Yeah, I think um at the really the end of my financial services career, um, you know, my wife and I began thinking carefully about okay, um, what is our legacy? You know, how are we thinking about uh being good stewards of what God's blessed us with? And so um really contemplating investing our own personal capital into companies and um specifically looking for sort of marrying together the underwriting discipline of having done a lot of very substantial transactions on Wall Street, um alongside for us, uh finding a CEO or a founder that had faith as a big part of their life. And um so that hopefully when they're wildly successful as they stand on a platform or they utilize their platform in business, um, they're doing it unto something. Yeah. And um so that's really what I've tried to do for the last few years. Okay. Do you feel like the what what drove that desire um I would say probably more than not the need for good role models models in the marketplace. Because inherently, if you've been able to build a substantial company and you know, God's blessed you with, you know, some stat wealth and capability is part of that, you have a voice in the market. Yeah. And um, you know, when you think about where we're getting right now with AI and all these unique technologies, it's amazing, right? And um the philosophy that an individual has for themselves in their life is always going to spill over into their company. It can't not happen. Wow. Right? Yeah. And so, you know, I mean, I've I've heard people articulate it, I don't know any of these individuals personally. But, you know, if you think about any AI company, well, who is the founder? And how did they program what is the morality of that particular engine? Right. And and there are questions in that that frankly are beyond me. From a technological perspective, I don't understand all of that. But I do understand is that what I think of the world, what I think of God, what I think about my own spirituality is going to spill over and have a substantial influence in the company that I run. Wow. So so I I I want to have more people that have a good perspective of God. And that doesn't mean they're all part of the same denomination or whatever, but they love Jesus deeply. They have a commitment beyond their own comfort. Um as the American church, I think many times we we desire to have all the elements of knowing God in a very deep way, as long as it's I'm comfortable. Yeah. And uh I've experienced my own life that those things inherently don't go together.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Wow. Wow. So anyway, there's uh something deep, deep about that. I love how you just drop a nugget and then you go. So anyway, um, you know, let's let's just sit on that for just a second. You and your different roles over the years, different capacities, uh, have probably seen a lot of uh high dollar transactions, um, high net worth individuals. Um, it's probably put you in a position uh in just proximity to to see to see a lot of things. I think I think um I think you're you know, I think you're being humble about your career, which you've always been such a humble person in your posture, which is one of my favorite things about you. But the truth of the matter is, is that in the roles that you carried and played, you were dealing with very uh big things um in in big scenarios and um things that would change a lot of people in maybe not the best ways. And so it's interesting to kind of hear you just touch on a little bit of your journey, but then move to uh your heart and where you're at now. And um I guess two questions that that would come to my mind if I'm you know, just for the the the businessmen, business women listening to this podcast, you know, how did you how did you protect or safeguard yourself through that career from just getting sucked into uh it feels like that whole the whole world can any any business for that matter, we can we can get really attracted to dollar signs. And and um you seem to have this really healthy relationship with money in a way that I don't know that I I I know a lot of people that would know how to not let uh that whole experience corrupt them in a sense. Um how how how did you navigate that? How did you how have you navigated that? Maybe you're still navigating that.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Well, I think that how people think about money, um, hence talents, is a really an important conversation. In the end, you know, uh a lot of these phrases are used a lot in the church world. But when you think about it, if you really do understand that we're just a steward and that, you know, as a lot of the biblical stories talk about, whether, you know, Jesus provided talents to you, what did you do with them? Yeah. Um, whether, you know, you were given opportunities. Um trying to be thoughtful around money is really important for people because in the end, if you ask most individuals, what do you struggle with? Um, I think an interesting question to ask people when you meet them is, you know, after you break the ice of in a little conversation is what are you afraid of in your life? And um fear, you know, obviously the single adage that I feel like through the New Testament is used again and again as an admonition for us as believers is do not fear. Wow. Right. And so, but if you ask yourself truly with some vulnerability, what am I afraid of? Money comes at the top for a lot of people. Wow. And, you know, for me as well. I mean, I grew up in a great family. Both my parents have passed now, but um, we didn't have much. Um, I didn't really ever feel like we were poor. Um, but now looking back, it's like, oh okay, we uh I'd work my way through college full time. Wow. And so as I'm going to school, um, you know, did everything from load trucks, third shift, was a security guard. I ended up working in men's retail clothing, you know, because it was a inside that was nice. Yeah. Not so hot or cold. Yeah. Um, and then, you know, I I was trained. I had some great relationships that I built in that era that I learned a lot from some people. But um, but through that, and then coming onto the Wall Street thing, which is total God opportunity, wow, um, was understanding a, you know, and I guess I'm this is truthful, but you know, I didn't go to Harvard Business School or Stanford or Princeton, right? But I had an awful lot of people that work for me that did. And so, you know, I always walked into that understanding that the Lord has put me here, this opportunity he's given me. Yeah. And so I want to be faithful to do it well. Wow. Which, by the way, there's, you know, inherent in that is conflict. And for some people, they can't handle the conflict. And it's like, okay, you know, the in Manhattan, you know, there'll be very, very robust arguments. Um, and then, you know, people would go from that to go to dinner together. And not bad and I. Wow. Because then it was a personal, it was about the transaction. And especially if you're on opposite sides of the table to some degree, they were trying to do a good job on behalf of whoever their constituency was. And so, how did they represent that? Okay. Unfortunately, a lot of Wall Street works in a zero-sum game.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Um, I didn't look at it as there was some game, but in the end, I had a job to do.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

And so I tried to do that very well. Um and worked very hard. Um, but the money part of it, you know, you're around it, but at some point, I mean, not you're not gonna spend the money you have now. Yeah. Right? So what are you gonna do with it? Well, the real question is, is then what what does God want you to do with it that has some meaningfulness for people, other people? So anyway.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Did you have, you know, growing up, um sort of you know, in an non-wealthy environment, for I don't know how else to say that. Yeah. Um what when you first started making money at a younger age? What did that feel like? How did that change you? Do you remember those feelings?

SPEAKER_00 19:36

And yeah. Um I guess I remember after I was working in New York, like the second year, and um you know, I worked in some ways maybe about the same number of hours I did in the healthcare industry, but I made 20x the amount of money I would have made in the healthcare industry. And to some degree, um, you know, one of the guys that was one of my mentors when I began to work on Wall Street, um, he said, Mark, never forget that nothing creates a perspective of arrogance quite so much as close proximities to large sums of money.

unknown 20:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

And what he meant by that was a lot of people became very arrogant in their perspective, their personality, their aura. And the reality is this isn't your money.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Right? It's a money from a pension fund or an insurance company, right? But yet you want to act like because you're in the room in this conversation, in some way that changes your worth. Wow. It doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

And so for me, I was blessed to have some mentors that were like that. Um another another uh phrase I remember that one of my first bosses gave me. He said, Mark, never forget the market can remain irrational much longer than you can remain solvent. That's a good perspective. Because you think, you know, you fall in love with this company, a stock, a deal, whatever it is, right? Right. And it's like, oh, this thing can't go wrong. Right. Right. Right. And uh, oh, the market's just, you know, it's it has a period of volatility. Um, okay, great. But again, you know, you just have to be very careful with how you're thinking through all of that. Yeah. Um but I also guess I now think about life in a perspective of I'm really investing every day the same way I should think about investing money. So I want to be intentional about relationships, I want to be intentional about actions and activities. Um, candidly, one of the things that, you know, if I were to turn black the clock, you know, eight and a half million miles is a lot. Yeah, that is a lot. And so, you know, I was here every weekend. And so I didn't miss football games and, you know, Sunday church and all this kind of stuff with my family, but I missed everything between Monday and Friday. And when, you know, one of your kids has a birthday, right? When something's happening, you know, in their life, I wasn't here. And so that was a downfall of the career path I pursued. And um I'm thankful for the things it blessed us with. And at the same time, I'm not ignorant of the fact that it costs something too.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Wow. Do you um do you regret that at some level?

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Yeah, I I think you know, all my kids again are adults now and grandchildren, but um I know it it has a residual impact. Yeah. And um yeah, uh, so in the end, I think that people have to think about maybe their life in a little broader perspective. Um how so? Well, I guess, you know, being a baby boomer, I was when I was raised, it was like, okay, the the ultimate responsibility of a man was to provide for his family. Okay, great. Um, to what level? Wow. Right? Yeah. And um given this opportunity to work on Wall Street, wow, um, high octane. Um, yeah, you know, I always viewed it that I'm a service provider, I'm an investment banker, right? And then I'm serving somebody unto an outcome. Great. Um, so I did that pretty intensely. Uh and in reality, you know, I was probably too imbalanced when it came to the level of what I allowed that to do for my schedule.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

If you if you could go back, how would you maybe do that different? And and I I ask you that question because I'm not trying to harp on any mistakes you have, but I think that you're speaking to the tension that many of us feel between providing and uh for for our families and and um the tension of finances and then the tension of just being a good parent, being a good mom or dad, and giving our kids what we feel they need, not just monetarily or financially, but also uh from a nurturing perspective and right the connectedness and things like that. Um yeah, I I I I think I think there's a lot of people that currently struggle with that tension. And there's actually been times where I've called you and be like, hey, how do you because I feel like I'm doing that. I'm like, man, I worked a hundred hours this week. And um sometimes I don't know that I feel like I know how to get out of it in that moment.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Yeah, I mean, the reality is there is a cost, and you know, the whole 10,000 hours rule, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Um 10,000 hours is 10,000 hours. So explain that for people.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Yeah, so to master anything, right? So whether you're a golf pro or an athlete, a business person, a great attorney, uh, whatever it is you do, if you're a you know, uh if you're a construction person, right? I mean, I met guys that are so talented at hanging drywall, you know, is truly a gift.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

They're incredible at it.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

And so to do anything with that level of mastery, it's gonna cost you about 10,000 hours.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

Got it.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

And so by the time you get through that, you know, that means you're not doing something else for 10,000.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Mastery comes at a price.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And um, you know, when I think about a lot of people that are musicians or whatever, right there on the road, you know, they're doing touring, all this kind of stuff. And I know that's a real challenge for a lot of them as well, is like, yes, I want my music to get out to the world. Um, but, you know, okay, what does that mean for my family? And how can I deal with that? Um, you know, in the end, it really does come down to uh individuals and their family, their wives, their kids. And then how do you in some way deal with that question? And candidly, what I should have done, I didn't do a very good job at, was really sitting down and talking through that process. Instead, I just went to work, right? It's 6 a.m. I'm first guy up, I'm heading to the airport, right? Um, or I'm in Singapore and I'm flying back and it's Thursday night or whatever it is. So um the big thing to me, I think people have to think about their lives in I really do believe seasons. God gave seasons to you know the physical earth. Yeah, great. There are seasons of life.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

And um I think for people to be intentional around, okay, what season am I in? Right? Okay, my kids are small. Okay, what does that look like? What does that look like for us? How do you think through a schedule that, you know, your spouse says, okay, yeah, I can do that. I understand where it's gonna cost us something. Right. Um, but I'm I'm up for that. Um, you know, as you get your kids older, right? So that's a different season. You know, Melissa and I are now in a season of empty nesters, right? And I it's funny because I think in many ways, each season you recalibrate your whole marriage. Wow. Right? Yeah. I was like, wait a minute, we don't have any kids to go to ball games or, you know, dance recitals and stuff like this. Right. So it's like, what do you like to do again? Yeah. Who are you who are you now at 56 than you were, you know, at 26.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

And um, yeah, you gotta recreate it. I think it's so interesting the dynamic of seasons because I've often thought about when it comes to seasons, I think number one, it's important that you recognize the season that you're in, and that your community or your family, they they recognize and agree with the season that you're in. I think one one thing that keeps people in big trouble is just not talking about it. Right now. Um, but I've often thought about this conversation of gifting, work, purpose, provision, finances. For you to be faithful with the gifts that God's put in your hands. It requires a certain perspective, a a certain way of operating, a certain level of discipline, um, responsibility that you carry. And I think sometimes we can swing so far in that arena that we sort of abandon some of these other things. It's really what you're saying. It's like 10,000 hours of mastery costs you something else, yep, somewhere. I've often I've often wondered is the gift on your life have an expiration date. Meaning, you know, most of the times in our 20s, 30s, and 40s, we're just trying to put all of our career and all that into you know the let's go to fifth gear. Is there a sixth gear here? Let's go to sixth gear. And then and then at at the so if that's the case, then we've got to put our family in, say, third gear, because it's like, well, I'm I'm in sixth gear over here, so I can't be eaten. Um, but what would it look like to sort of balance that a little bit during those those prime years of your kids growing? Is your career over? Is there is your are the gifts still there? You know, if you pick up the gifts, uh this is a a funny analogy, but um Eric Johnson, somebody we both know, uh friends with, he his youngest daughter turned 18, and all of a sudden Eric was like this avid golfer. And I was like, like, dude, I didn't know you like golf this much. And he's like, Oh, I've I've always loved it, but I just committed that I was never gonna play it the way I wanted to until my my my youngest turned 18. So they go off and he's like it would, it was all a part of his plan, you know? And I think sometimes I think about work and and building something in the same manner of like if if it's gonna be at the expense of a kid, maybe we can maybe we can have a a plan where we pick some of this stuff up. But I don't know, what do you think? Do you think gifts do gifts follow you? Did would you have been the person you are now if you would have put the throttle down, so to speak?

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Oh great question. Um I am so incredibly thankful uh for the reality that God takes our decisions sometimes when they aren't the best ones. Yeah. And he still is able to work with that. And you know, all things work together for good, those that love God and are called according to his purpose. I I really I hang on to that. Um, there are a few verses that I quote every day, you know, um, and that's one of them as a promise. Wow. And so the reality is um there's a balance in it of okay, yes, if you want to be great at something, then it is gonna cost you something. And so you've got to talk that through, you know, with your spouse, your family, hopefully, and and come to an understanding of that. Um, and almost like Eric, you know, said, okay, I'm willing to not not be a scratch golfer or whatever my handicap is now, um, until my last child's 18. Good for him. That's awesome. That's such a really well-demonstrated experience, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:48

It's also a good excuse why you're not a scratch golfer.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Right. Uh, I didn't do that. And and so I say that not in any sense of false guilt or something, but as that's reality. Yeah. Yeah. And so um, I am thankful that my family worked through some of my seasons where yeah, I I had the I had the pedal on the floor. Yeah. Um, and and to that end, you know, God taught me things through that season as well. I I would say I don't think see I don't think gifts have an expiration date. But I do see gifts as having different outputs. So, you know, I I get it. When you're in your 20s, man, you're just trying to get there, right? And man, I'll get that next promotion or that next opportunity or whatever it is. Um, 30s, a lot like that as well. Well, now your kids are probably getting to double digits, right? In some cases, depending on a lot of people have kids later now in life, so whatever. But um, you know, 40s, okay, sweet spot, right? I need to be making it happen. 50s, okay, you know, I'm gonna probably maybe the most senior roles you'd have in your career. And then things begin to slow back down, right? Okay. Um, I I do feel like, you know, I'm 63. And so when you get to your late 50s, you really do begin to think, I began to think about what is this concept of mentoring? And what does it mean besides just, you know, talking to people? How how do I do that? Um, you know, uh, I've seen some people illustrate it really well. Uh there's a good friend of mine, and I'll I'll not mention his name, uh, but he's he has a very, very substantial uh political role.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Is it Donald Trump?

SPEAKER_00 33:45

No. But uh I he's a good friend and I respect him a lot. And one of the reasons he went into his political career after a business career is because he had mentored a young man. And you know, when he met this young man who is from a different socioeconomic background than him and his family, he said, I'm gonna mentor you. And his mentorship uh consisted of taking him to dinner every Wednesday night for five years. Wow. I was like, What? He when he told me that, I was like, Wow, that's amazing that's a commitment, yeah. Yeah, and I would have been like once a month, maybe, you know, it's like yeah, every week. Wow. But it was the outcome of that experience of understanding what that person's life was like that led this person into making a decision to do something, you know, for a broader, you know, group of society than he'd ever considered before. Wow. Because he was able to see life through his lenses, yeah. Um I don't know. I I I also am a big believer that as people think about what what career should I pursue, right? Getting out of college, you know, we're in the in the middle of this AI, you know, development, quantum computing, which will change the world, I think a lot. Yeah, I agree. And for all of that, um the questions become, well, what would my career look like now? And um so I think for a lot of people, uh really working through where do they feel their giftings are, you know, getting some really thoughtful counsel. Um, you know, my 36-year-old son has an aerospace defense prototyping business, which is amazing. That's that's awesome. Yeah, he has this really smart, he's very smart. He, you know, thank God for his mom. Uh, but he uh he was so the the business is high stress, it's aerospace defense hardware, right? Taking big, huge C and C machines, taking a block of metal and making it something incredibly intricate. Wow. Um and so very, very tight tolerances. And he has, if you name all the big aerospace defense companies, you know, those are his clients. And I'm chairman of the business. We get to work together in that. Wow. And so that's an incredible honor for me. And at the same time, I'm watching him go through what I went through.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

You just hinted on it, so I want to stay on that lane, but you just hinted on AI in the world's changing. I think that I don't know, you and I probably nerd on that more than more than some, but I I actually think we nerd out it, nerd out on it, and most should. Um right now, that's kind of my conviction because I do think that right now we're seeing something that's even more substantial than the than the dot com, yeah, or then the invention of the internet. Um you know, Jack Dorsey, uh, owner of Square, just did it first, yeah. Uh made a really massive layoff. And uh he had a I I thought it was a pretty well written written letter just explaining, hey, this was inevitable, we could wait to do it or we could do it now. Right. And, you know, um, so there's a lot of talk right now about how fast the world's changing and how many jobs we're gonna be out of by 2030. And um uh a lot of people I think aren't ready for that, or they don't know what it looks like. I don't know that we know what it looks like, you know, fully, but um, you know, I think I'd love to hear just some of your thoughts on where you think we're going as a society with all of this and what this will do to the way we work and the way that we put our hands to something and and that has that feels like it has purpose or meaning. Because I think for so many people, the work that we do has a purpose to it, it has a meaning to it. Um, but yeah, how are you thinking about all of this stuff?

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Well, yeah, that's it's a big question. Um, I do agree with you. I think probably the level of change that will happen in the next five to ten years will be the greatest of my lifetime, yeah for certain. Yeah. And um, you know, because it's gonna touch every part of your life. Um, and what roles and what jobs are needed or not needed. I mean, obviously it's we've seen some of the uh volatility within the software industry. Um, and so, you know, I was fortunate to work with some of the biggest software investors, private equity investors, and I've listened to what some of them have said. Okay, great. So is this going to amplify the skill of your best people? Certainly, it will, no question. But will it also eliminate the need for some of those entry-level roles or jobs? I don't know. Um I do think in the end, uh, every business is going to have to face the reality of what does my industry look like in a post-AI adoption world? And, you know, what do my competitors look like? What's that landscape look like? What do my gross margins look like, et cetera? Um, but if I kind of come back, whether it be in through AI or anything, I would say one of the biggest things that I'm learning, haven't completely learned yet, but I'm learning. But I've been fortunate to think about is really what your identity is. Because every person lives your life from an identity, whether they admit it or not. Wow. And um I'm very fortunate. There's a guy named Jamie Winship that I've been fortunate, I've never met Jamie, but I love his book called Living Fearlessly. You know the plug. And uh he and his wife Donna have a podcast, and he their focus is identity. And he has a prayer that I just think is so well put. And the prayer is if you really want to understand your identity, you know, get alone with the Lord, quiet your life, quiet your heart, all the things that are happening, and just really get in a place of waiting before Him and ask God this question. God, when you made me, um, you created me for a very specific purpose and meaning, and you knew everything that would happen in my life before time ahead of time. Therefore, when you introduce me to someone, what do you say about me?

SPEAKER_02 40:30

That's so good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Because, you know, when you think about God said, you know, consider my servant Job, right? Uh what's the characteristics of Job, right? Yeah. Uh, or or you look at any other individual, um, but I I I think that's an incredibly important topic that you don't hear talked about as much as it should be, in my opinion. Yeah. But understanding your identity, what is my identity? And um, I just got back from Africa, you know, about uh less than a week ago. And whether you're in Africa or you're in, you know, New York or Chicago or wherever you are in life, having a clear understanding of what you feel like is your identity with the Lord is critical. Because you'll live life through that lens, it will affect everything you are and what decisions you make and what you do. So I I think that's a big deal to me. The the other perspective I've thought about a decent amount is um there are times when I feel like I went through a pretty good, thoughtful process of making a decision. Okay, God, what you know, what are you saying about this situation? What are the facts around it? Where's your heart in it? Biblical principles, you know, obviously those are everything needs to fall within the framework of those biblical principles. Uh, because God's not going to tell you to do something that, you know, isn't is against his character. Right, right. Okay. There's uh, you know, the Matthew 7, ask, seek, and knock. Right. I've thought a lot about that in my life. And I feel like one of the things I learned was I I go back to God and ask him, God, what questions should I be asking? Because I really believe it's a process. It's ask. And when I feel like then as I'm asking those questions, I get a better understanding. All right, now let me go seek those answers and whatever that answer looks like. And then based on that seeking process, I'll then go knock on doors that I think follow that pattern. Yep. But if I just want to go start knocking on doors, but I didn't ask.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

Right? Or I didn't really seek. Yeah. All I did was go to knocking because that was my natural proclivity. Wow. Let me just go knock on a lot of doors. Oh, yeah, we need to do this, or let's just, you know, brute force. Let's just go do it. And um in God's kingdom, there's an order to it. There's an order to it. Um, I also think about uh something recently I read um Watchman Me, an interesting guy. He's written quite a few books. When the normal Christian life is the one most people know of.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

Uh, but there's another one where he talks about why did God describe himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. If you read it, in several of the places, he says, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. Why? And um, and in going through that and looking at it, Abraham, Abram, when he was called, right, Mesopotamia. He uh Mesopotamia was known to be an area of a lot of idols. There's nothing mentioned about Abram or Abraham of character or interest that in any way qualified him for God's call. It was purely. God's sovereign love for him. Right? There's nothing in him. He wasn't, you know, Noah righteous, right? Or Enoch walked with God and God just took him, right? Or whatever. Yeah. So throughout all the Old Testament, there was nothing Abram was this amazing character or whatever. No, God called him. And I feel like the lesson to me about Abram, the God of Abram, is I am blessed to be called by God without any merit of my own. Completely unconditional love. Isaac being the prototype of Jesus, right? The promised one, right? Supernatural birth after they're too old, etc. Um, Isaac lived his life a lot through inheritance. And I think to me, when I think about the God of Isaac, I think about, okay, what is it like to live a life through inheritance? That I'm in Christ, right? He has been given everything from the by the Father, right? And so I am in him. And so it's in an inheritance that I walk through that place. Yeah. And the last one is Jacob, the deceiver, right? And the meddler and, you know, scratching out and fighting the gritty guy, right? But it's it's not until he finally is on, you know, the other side of the river by himself that he wrestles with God. And at the end of that, he literally surrenders himself.

unknown 45:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Say, I I can't do this anymore. I don't have enough strength. I don't have enough manipulation, right? Uh he was he was gonna go see Esau, right? And more than likely could have killed him. Wow. And so it was he like, I don't have any more wrestling in me.

unknown 45:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

And that really is just the Holy Spirit of saying, okay, when you finally surrender to him and say, God, I want you to fill me and I want to be used by you in whatever way you want. But each of those is important. So it's each part of those three that challenges.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

That's powerful. Anyway, that's powerful, man. I want to um I wanna I wanna if you're okay with this, I want to, I want to ask you to maybe share um I want to talk a little bit about generosity at some level, but I want to ask you, would if we could could we share the um the Chris McClarney story? I just it's one of my favorite stories. Chris is one of my favorite people. Um, he's actually on the podcast as well. But uh you you there's a reason I want to bring this out, and and um it was a well you just share the story, and there's I'll tell you why. But you you really helped Chris in a significant way early on in his life as a as a worship leader and a songwriter. Will you unpack that for us?

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Yeah, sure. We were well, um, my wife and kids, we were very fortunate that we had found a depth of community in a local church here in Franklin. Um it was initially called Abounding Grace. Now it's called Grace Center, and um it's a wonderful experience. And so Chris and his wife Jasmine, I think he was 23, 22, 23, something like that. Early 20s. And we hired Chris to be a worship leader. And he's just an amazingly gifted and anointed worship leader, as you know. And so uh, so we're just in really enjoying Chris and his wife, and um and probably within, I don't know, it seemed like within the first six months or so, he wrote this song, Your Love Never Fails. And he and Anthony Skinner um, you know, wrote this song, just great song. And um I'm sitting in the back, and you know, uh they probably sang that song every other Sunday for months. Yeah. And uh, you know, we kind of had the church service that, you know, worship could be 25 minutes, worship could be 50 minutes, you know, whatever. Um, and sometimes we'd sing that the chorus again and again. Wow. And it was such an impactful song. And honestly, I don't have any musical gifting or skill at all. And so, but I was sitting in the back and the Holy Spirit, as clear as I can hear him, said, You are supposed to help that song live outs outside the four walls of this church. Wow. And honestly, I didn't know what that meant really. And so, yeah, I was very fortunate that I talked to Chris and just said, Hey man, um, you know, I I believe I'm supposed to help you get that song outside the four walls of the church. I don't know what that means. And so we we set up a dime to go have lunch, and so we're sitting there together, and he tells me about it, and he said, Well, yeah, man, he said, I'm I'm trying to raise um you know, X dollars. And uh he said, I I was thinking about asking five people. If five people could give, you know, uh a reasonable amount, um, then I could get to my number. And I said, Okay. And um, you know, I I then you know said, Well, look, uh you don't need to go ask five people. And so I'll give you the money. Um, I don't want anything for it. I don't want any ownership or anything like that. I just need to obey God. And that's what he's told me to do. And so, you know, Melissa and I and our family were able to, you know, give through our church and provide that to him. And I also said, Oh, by the way, you need 25% more than you asked for. Because I'm sure you're trying to be conservative. Let me give yeah, let me throw out a number that's not too big. He's not a businessman, he's an artist, right? He's creative. And uh, but that that sort of you know uh partnered us together for a long. And Chris and he's he's such an amazing man of God.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

Oh, uh Chris is the best. But yeah, you're Love Never Fells. If you have been in the church for any length of time, you'd know that song. Um so I just love the seed story of it started at this little church that just kept getting repeated and then and then finally was released through that. Um, what you when you first told me that story, I think what stood out to me that I think is really significant is uh I think being carrying a heart of generosity is an important thing for for all of us to to you know to a perspective carry. I don't think anybody would argue that. But there's another component there that I think it's really that that that that I get excited about when you share that story, and that is your ability to be tuned in enough to go, I'm willing to be generous. And then when God starts to put something on your heart and starts to direct that that that generosity, um, you were assertive enough to go, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, great. Like let's let's do that. And I think often generosity can generosity is not something anybody disagrees with. I give you a a really hard sob story case situation, and you're like, yes, I I have a I'm I have a heart to give to that, but but to choose a life of generosity where you're saying, Hey God, whatever you want me to do, I'm gonna do. Whatever that is. Like if you ask me to do something, I'm I'm I'm gonna do it. I I think that if more people walked around with that spirit, uh this world would be a better place. I don't think we can, yeah. We I don't think we'd ever outgive God, um, you know, for sure. So I love that you you carry that and that you've done that. Um, you've done some other generous projects, you know, throughout your life. Um tell us a little bit about the uh the worship uh oh nations of worship. Yeah, it's called it's called now. Yeah, nations of worship NOW Nations of Worship. Tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

Yeah, I that's been an incredibly uh huge blessing for my family and I. Um and it really came out of a uh a church service where I felt like the Holy Spirit, you know, and I'm I'm not the most prophetic guy um in the world, but I felt like at this one particular Sunday, God gave me a word to share with people. And um, so I shared the word, and the word was that God had God had put something inside of a few people that were in the audience where they were impregnated almost with this purpose. Right. And but they'd held this thing for years and they'd never birthed it. And so that was the analogy I thought of. And um, but what God was calling them to do was to go back and if you would almost, you know, re-energize that idea and say, Okay, God, maybe now is the time you're gonna actually birth that. That was it. Okay. And you know, somebody came up to me at the end of that service and said, Hey, I think that's me. And I said, What happened? And this guy's incredibly skilled. Uh his name's Ian Eskelin. Ian's an amazing producer. Producer. Yeah, very known.

SPEAKER_01 53:09

And he was an initial artist. And uh he did stuff for like Michael W. Smith for years.

SPEAKER_00 53:15

And Ian earlier in his career, and we laugh about this now. He uh yeah, he he had some uh provocative endings to some of his concerts. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I think there was one where he told me he said he uh they had some like lighter fluid and they lit the keyboard on fire.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

This is or something like that. It's before YouTube.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

Yeah, right, exactly. But uh, but he decided um he and Peggy had their their uh son and decided I'm not gonna go to her. Wow. And so he became a full-time producer. Wow, helping people live out the calling God put in them. Wow. And he's just amazingly gifted at it. And he told me this story that, you know, when he was a young guy, he went to India. And while he was in India, an old man came up to him at this really small church and he said, You will bring worship music to India. That is 25 years prior. And he was telling me, he said, I think this is the season God wants to birth at. 25 years later. 25 years later. And so Melissa and I were fortunate that we had to partner together. And so we started, um, and I was committed that we will go take all the skill and excellence of what producing music looks like in Nashville and the US, but bring that to these environments where typically it doesn't make financial sense. And while, you know, I respect people, uh, you know, the reality is for a lot of labels, you know, ARPU or average revenue per user, right? The RPU numbers don't work, right? It doesn't make financial sense. Sure. Like, okay, that's exactly where we'll go. We'll go produce great music originated by those people in that country, written by them, their instruments, their style, all of that.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

See, I think the that's distinction that's important there is that it's not bringing sort of an American product to another country, but it's it's saying what is the culture here? That's right. What is the what is the language here?

SPEAKER_00 55:19

Yeah. So we were fortunate. So we went to India first and we've done I think it's 14 songs, original songs in Indi in uh in Hindi and Malayalam and Urdu and some of the languages India. I think we've had about 60 million streams on YouTube. 60 million. And it's just been an incredible blessing, and the artists are just fantastic. 60 million, man. That is a lot of influence. It's a lot, yes, and so I'm thankful. And now we're we've gone to Africa. So our next uh work will be out of Africa, and we spent a decent amount of time in South Africa and Kenya and some other places, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:55

And you're doing this. I mean, this is really a generosity thing.

SPEAKER_00 55:58

This isn't Yeah, Melissa and I have been blessed, and so we feel like this is one of the callings on our life is to invest because you something think about what your life would be like spiritually if you didn't have songs to express your worship to God that were in your language. Yeah. And I just think that's such a critical component of knowing the Lord. And so having but having also an environment with the art of worship in that local culture, transparently, um, you know, we want to do it in also languages like Farsi. That, you know, I from what I understand, the underground church in Iran is growing like crazy. Wow. Um, Arabic. Wow. Um, you know, there's some closed environments where you know there won't be videos with those. Yeah. Um, but to be able to actually produce great worship, and I think having it originate from the lives of the people that live there is really important.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

Oh, that's so special. Yeah, man. I love that you're doing that. Yeah, if people want to check that out, is it um yeah, now Nations of Worship on YouTube?

SPEAKER_00 57:03

Yeah. If you just go to nationsofworship.com, you'll find it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

I've seen the videos, they're phenomenal videos. Yeah, we're really good videos.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

They the guys have done a great job, and Ian's amazing at it of taking all of that and then bring all the tracks back here and they'll mix it and every kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

So yeah, yeah. Man, I love that you're doing that. I love the impact that it's having. All right, I got one last question, and that question uh is really to I'm I'm not gonna say like give advice to your 20-year-old self, but I I want to ask you um of all the life experience you've carried and all the things that you've been able to accomplish and do, and whether it be in the workplace or even in ministry, um, when you look back at your life, you know, what is some of the what what would be the advice you'd give to that maybe, you know, 25, 30, 35-year-old self about where you're going, what you're doing, and um, or or maybe what would your advice be to me? You know, uh, you've been a mentor in my life, but um, you know, you know the passions on my heart. And uh I didn't even mention this, but Mark's been a really big um mentor and and partner really in in talents and just what we're what we're slowly rolling out here. Um been a really big encourager around that. But yeah, give give give let's go back 30 years and and give me give me some of your best pieces of advice. Then wow, um fix all my problems right now, right?

SPEAKER_00 58:41

Yeah, in five minutes. Uh so I think probably an advice advice to anybody in earlier in life and myself, included 30 years ago, would have been um don't sweat quite so much of the small stuff. Um there's an easy, at least for me, there was an easy ability to make everything a crisis. Right? Um, oh man, something's happened travel-wise, I'm not gonna make that meeting in XYZ City, doesn't matter, right? And that became, you know, literally, oh my goodness, such a big deal. And now I look back, it's like I did thousands of those meetings, like one less. Um I think that having a perspective of truly uh having faith, God really does want good things for us. Um you know, I had the wrong philosophy of who God the Father was for a long time. That you know, I'm just I'm I'm sort of wincing every time, you know. Um, but seeing him as no, he deeply loves you. And I I probably two weeks ago, as I was thinking about this coming back from Africa, um, if like the Holy Spirit gave me this perspective. And I never thought about it this way in my whole life. And the idea was son, do you understand? I see you with everything that's in you, minus any fear, any sin, any bad decision you've ever made. I see the purity of who you are, the giftings you have, the things people love, right? Uh, the joy that you bring to people, um you know, that that's how he sees you. He's not looking at you and saying, Oh, well, you know, yeah, but Cody's got this issue, right? Or this problem or something. He sees you in that purity. And so if we can see that that's the way he looks at us, now that doesn't mean that if I make bad decisions, I won't reap them. I will, right? I'll weep what reap what I sow. Um but one of the elements for me that I feel like I did not get right for a long time was so my business career was very blessed, and a lot of really impressive people, a lot of billionaires now, and spent a lot of time with them personally. Um at times I would struggle to know, okay, God, I'm here. You bless me to be in the room. Surely my role is in some way, shape, or form to share my faith. Okay. And so I'm like, yes. I unfortunately had adopted what I had been taught, which was sharing my faith was this information exchange that I needed to convince somebody of my view of apologetics on what the scripture said. And um, you know, I again I I give Jamie Winship credit for this statement. Um he said, sharing your faith is understanding that you've been healed by God and what your goal is, is just simply to hold the other person while God heals them. Well, what have I done? Did I think that because somebody repeated a particular prayer in a particular way, they came to know the Lord? Wow. And so really what my goal is then is this is I am shared to be a witness, right? Not a prosecuting attorney. Wow. Not a defense attorney, certainly not the judge. I am a witness to say, this is what God's done in my life. And how he's loved me, and now he's brought me to himself, and how I've seen that yes, I am a sinner and I've come short of the glory of God and all those things about salvation and who Jesus is.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:57

But I'm I like let God love that person. Yeah. And yeah, I can it is about sharing truth. Don't get me wrong. It's there are truth aspects of it. I feel like in the Western world, every time I come back from Africa, this hits me again. Um, you know, the scripture, John 8 32, you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. Well, that word know is a Greek word conosco, that it doesn't mean information exchange. It doesn't mean I read a book. I could read a hundred books. So I understand the concept. That is not it. It is that I have deeply experienced what that truth means and how it affects and impacts me. That is knowing the truth. Not, oh yeah, I can repeat repeat particular verses or particular facts about God. So I would say to myself, truly loving people where they are with the heart of God, to be authentic about it, that it's out of my life, yeah, not, you know, oh, I've got to evangelize you out of a transaction. Yeah. That probably for me, uh the issue of identity and the issue of what am I on earth to do? Well, I want to represent you well.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

Whether it's in my job, my neighborhood, my school, wherever I'm at. And that freeing yourself to say, love people where they are, um, because an authentic change life will change their life.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

That's a beautiful note right there. That's a beautiful note right there. I think we we can we can, I just want to end right there. I don't want to say anything. Mark, thank you so much for having sitting down having this conversation. I just um I think there's something that's uh really important about the next generation, the generations below you reaching up and going, hey, let me have some of your wisdom. And you've always been so gracious to give that wisdom. So thank you for being a friend and uh thank you for helping me even with talents and uh and and sitting down and sharing some of that wisdom. I love what you're doing, man. I appreciate you so much. God bless, brother.