Discipling Kids
Where practical parenting meets practiced theology for families and ministries discipling kids for Christ.
Discipling Kids
Why Families Matter to God (with Dr. David Palmer)
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Why do families matter so much to God?
In this episode, I’m joined by my senior pastor, Dr. David Palmer, to explore the biblical importance of family and the unique role families play in God's redemptive plan.
We discuss:
- Why families matter to God as seen in Scripture
- Where we see the importance of family throughout Scripture
- Why God so often uses family language to describe His relationship with His people
- The connection between our physical families and our spiritual family in Christ
Throughout Scripture, God reveals Himself as Father, welcomes believers as His children, and forms His people into a family. This conversation explores why those themes matter and how our earthly families help shape our understanding of belonging, discipleship, and life in Christ.
Welcome to Discipling Kids Podcast, where practical parenting meets practiced theology for families and ministries, discipling kids for Christ. I'm your host, Pastor John Scheller. Welcome back to Discipling Kids. I am so excited to have with me Pastor David Palmer. And David, you and I, we go back several years. You were the man who led me to Jesus. You baptized me, and you were there, you know, in that time of my life when I met my wife, Roseanne. You baptized her. You married us. We moved away to Kansas City. We came back eight years later. Uh, so I could be the pastor of children families here at Kenva Baptist. I mean, one of the first things you did when we got here was you dedicated my children. John, we have a lot that we've shared that's been spiritually significant. Not only spiritually significant to me personally, but spiritually significant to my family as well. And so I am just so appreciative of you and the work that you're doing and appreciative of your family. So it's a it's a joy and a thrill to be able to talk to you about why families matter to God.
SPEAKER_01It's a joy to be with you, John, and uh love this topic. So thanks for having me as a guest on the podcast.
SPEAKER_00Of course. And David, you got your Masters of Divinity from Gordon Conwell in Boston, a PhD from Hebrew Union here in Cincinnati in New Testament. And to balance you out, you are married to Dr. Christine Palmer, Old Testament scholar, who's also on faculty at Gordon Conwell and got her PhD as well from Hebrew Union.
SPEAKER_01She's uh the one of the greatest gifts in my life. So yeah. And and together we've we've had to think theologically about family in our own family life.
SPEAKER_00Take us to why do families matter to God, and how do we see that in the Old Testament, and then we'll work our way into the New Testament as well. But start us off in the Old Testament. Where do we see, even in Genesis, why families matter?
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell I think that the scripture opens with God as the creator, male and female. He he expresses his creativity by by designing us in such a way that there's a pluripotency to creation, that that what God creates multiplies, and we see that the seas teem with life. And God is a God of life. And so, you know, Jonathan Edwards said famously, it's not a sign of deficiency for a fountain to overflow. And so God, God's word, God's person, there is an overflow of the love of God. So creation doesn't happen because God lacks something. I think as a new Christian, I had somehow along the way picked up the thought that God created us because he needed us or because he was lonely. And I didn't know it at the time, but that's really ancient Near Eastern cosmology, that the gods create human beings so they can serve them. And in the scriptures, God's life and creativity overflows out of the abundance of the love within the Trinity, and God has relationship within himself. So the image bearers have this unique quality. We sometimes talk about the image of God, but one of the features of the image of God that I think is underdiscussed is the very capacity for relationship. You know, the geese don't have that, the trees don't have that, uh, you know, newts don't have that, uh, salmon spawning, and no one else has a relational nature like human beings because that is reflected in God's own relationship within himself. And he expresses that, male and female, the Adam bursts into poetry seeing Eve and knows himself in relationship to her. You know, he knows himself as Ish, Hebrew man, only when he sees Esha with the Hebrew directional hey. That here is the woman taken from my side, and now I know myself. And I I would say that when Christine and I met, that I felt that I knew myself, and then all of a sudden I met this woman whom God had prepared to be my wife, and I I knew myself. Myself came forward in a way that I'd never really seen before. And so I think that the husband-wife relationship reflects God's creativity and design, and and then having children in our in our image is a reflection in Genesis 5 of having children that not just look like the us in some ways, but who reflect us and and come out of the relationship that we share. One of my best uh lines I got from uh an older Christian at Kenwood, how do you talk to your kids when your kids first ask you, like, mommy, daddy, like where did I come from? And you know, that question sometimes can come earlier than you're ready for it. So it's good to have thought about that in advance. And an older, wiser Christian at Kenwood told me what they said to their kids, and I thought, this is what I'm gonna say. And they just said, you're here because your mom and dad love each other. And it it wasn't time to get out the anatomy books. It was time, it was you're here, and in a sense, like we are here because of the love of God within himself.
SPEAKER_00Praise the Lord. And even thinking of that, what some people have called the cultural mandate of fill the earth, subdue it. Part of that is accomplished through the family, right? Procreation, having children. And I've even thought about that. He could have created Adam and Eve and children independent of each other, right? But he creates us all in a way dependent upon each other and a dependent upon the Lord. Right.
SPEAKER_01There's a mutuality, a reciprocal relationship of obligation, which is, you know, the word covenant isn't used, but the reality of covenant is on display. That we're in a relationship of mutual obligation uh to one another and to God. And so, you know, I've often thought about this that God could have designed us in a way that, I mean, what if we were like mold that just spawned? And like, how depressing would that be? And yet, we're not like that. We we have relationship with one another and intimacy. It's the overflow of love between a man and woman that that produces children in their image. And again, not just that they look like them in some way, but that they are the outcome of a relationship of love that existed before them. So I just think deep down within us, I think this is so important for children to grow up knowing that they are the product of a love relationship that existed before they did.
SPEAKER_00And that's a safe space to grow up. Why do you think God places such a strong emphasis on parents teaching their children?
SPEAKER_01I think it's I think it's for the children and for the parents. I think it's another divine genius move that's for our own mutual good and to, you know, to tell us what what is most important uh for us. And you know, I I think about like again to contrast people with wild animals, like you see a caribou give birth, and within literally minutes, the young caribou is able to run at high speeds. Our children don't emerge like that, they can't even lift their head up. So, like the pinnacle of creation, humanity is born in such a state of physical vulnerability. We can't even move around. And so we can't speak, and and and so there's something in that that I think also reflects God's design. And I think as as a young parent myself, I remember wrestling with what is my goal? Like what what am what am I actually trying to accomplish here? And it was really helpful, again, for me to listen to older Christian parents. Christine and I didn't grow up in Christian homes, so we felt that we were discovering what does it mean to have a godly family. So Kent and Barbara Hughes' book, Disciplines of a Godly Family, was incredibly helpful for us. And it was like mission one, communicate love. And I thought, I can do that. You know, I just communicate love with talking, hugging, holding, uh, reliability, dependency. And then I didn't actually think about it at the time, but looking back on it, those are really some of our first theological impressions. God is consistent, dependable, displaying signs of love and affection before we are actually able to reciprocate it. So right, Jesus says, I first loved you. And I think that is really important. And of all the things that we can do in this life, we can work and play and pursue the accumulation of wealth or social prestige and standing. We can try to uh have athletic uh accomplishments of all the array, business success, all the things that we think to go for. I think it's uh so moving that God would place a primary responsibility that we would teach our children about the Lord, and that means that I need to know the Lord. I can't teach my son or daughter about Jesus if I don't know Jesus. And I think there's a profound divine wisdom in that. It sets uh knowledge of God within a relational context of of a home. It also, you know, sometimes I've been blessed in my life to I've visited 35 countries, I've participated in cultural dynamics in a lot of different places, and sometimes I just step back and I look at what is so unique about Christianity. And this is one of those uniquenesses for me, that our faith is it's always set inside of a relational setting. Christianity isn't uh like a set of teachings that we just uh gain on our own and live out in isolation. It's it's uh it's a relational setting like the home. And I think the that our home, just like our kitchen table, is an extension of the altar in God's we call it the temple, but you know, in Hebrew, it's God's home. The tabernacle is God's dwelling place, but it's really his, it's his, it's where he lives. So we're we're invited into the hospitality of God, and our homes are extensions by faith of the hospitality that we experience from God, our Heavenly Father. And so all that's happening in the sanctuary, our our home is is actually in some ways it's connected to that, and a um it's replicating the the rhythms of worship that you see in God's house, my house should be like that.
SPEAKER_00A resource that was helpful for me, and I know helpful for many was Rosaria Butterfield's The Gospel comes with a house key, emphasizing that hospitality is a Christian duty, not just a spiritual gift, um, and that how Christians are called to welcome strangers, love neighbors, share life together, and to be neighborly, inviting people in into that home to experience the gospel. And I've heard you say also, you know, how parents are primary, but also primarily responsible for discipling their kids, teaching and sharing faith that's in the home. But we also see exam examples in scripture where that's within the context, though, of a greater faith community as well. So talk to me about how this community is also helping shape the family.
SPEAKER_01Right. That's a great question. And there's a sense in the Bible that God's family is constantly growing. It's not just growing in godliness and Christ-likeness, it's not just growing in in an in a number count, but it's growing in terms of there are more and more people who are being brought into the family. And it's more like it's not just having children, but it's more like the kind of exponential growth that happens when when a son or daughter gets married. And, you know, Jesus says in John 14 that I'm going to prepare a place for you in my father's house. There are many rooms, and the imagery there is of a household that is expanding. You know, uh foreigners who are are invited to participate in Israel's worship. It's a mixed multitude in Exodus 12 28 that comes out of Egypt. So there are the group of people at the base of Mount Sinai are not just the biological descendants of Abraham. There's a significant portion of Egyptians who, after seeing the Lord's power, say he must be God, and and they leave Egypt. And, you know, the first Canaanite that we meet by name in Joshua, Rahab, reports, We've we've heard about this God and what he's like, and she then becomes becomes a mother in Israel. So there's both a uh a right kind of exclusivity or covenant bond to the family by God's design, but the the scriptural family is a family that that readily adopts new people into it. You know, I had a front row seat for your conversion and early growth in faith, and I just I love it. I I didn't know, like I couldn't have imagined then as I was pulling you out of the waters of baptism that we'd be pastoring together someday. I mean, how awesome is that's awesome. Um when I was led to faith in Christ at age 16, uh, my best friend, he's still my best friend to this day, it was two o'clock in the morning. He led me to faith uh after playing midnight tennis uh in lighted courts, and he dropped me back off at my my home, and he went to his house and he woke up his whole family at two o'clock in the morning. He woke them up and he just told them, David has come to faith in Jesus, and they all celebrated. And then they they picked me up for church next Sunday, and they welcomed me like a son into their home. So that's a that's a aspect of the missional outcome of the you know, the culture, you mentioned the cultural mandate, culture as a s as a as a way of life that's visible, and mandate, you know, the Latin mandatum commandment is the the commandment is for fruitfulness to fill the earth. And you know, that's that's the ultimate goal we see in Habakkuk or Isaiah, that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, like the waters cover the sea. And that happens, the family relationships are vital to that, and we also discern that family relationships in both Old and New Testament are family relationships through conversion, adoption, and that uh God's family is big and it's growing.
SPEAKER_00Pastor David, that is super helpful. So help us understand then, and you're and you're connecting these dots for us. How then does family and family language help us understand our relationship with Christ and one another?
SPEAKER_01You know, that's a great question. The word that Jesus uses most often to describe us is disciples, learners, students. This language is really prominent in the gospels. And if we look at the rest of the New Testament, we do have this passage where Jesus is told in his preaching ministry that your mother and your brothers are are here, they're looking for you. And Jesus says, My mother, my brothers are those who hear God's word and do it and do it. So he he redraws the the lines of family in that passage in a way that is striking. But throughout the New Testament and in the letters, we see the language of familial relationships being applied to the household of faith. So you have language of brothers, it is language that alerts us to like calling one another a brother or sister is a is it's a theological outcome of having a shared father. And so I I don't pass over that language lightly or or too quickly. And the affection that we have for our siblings, the care that we have for their good as a result of having a common common father. And in Christ, we are adopted into the family of God, and we do have a common father. The Holy Spirit, Romans 8, bears witness with our spirit that we're that we are children of God. So we have the language of brother, sister. We also have the language used in the letters of children, like in John 1, John 1, but also thinking of John's letters, like he nothing brings him greater joy than to know that his children are walking in the truth. So the Paul, you know, somewhat daringly likens himself to a to a mother in the pains of labor. And I just I just think for any man to use that metaphor, there's a lot of respect there. So you've got to you've got to really see in that though, like you're you care for your brothers and sisters in Christ, or we're both pastors, like the there's a very real and genuine concern and care for the people that are under our shepherding care. Like in Christ, we we love them and we care for their spiritual well-being. And that's a relationship that's created um through a faith in Christ. So I th I that's one thing I would say about the family in the New Testament. And sometimes we have relationships within our biological family that are fantastic and wonderful, and sometimes we don't. And sometimes the relationship that we have with our sp spiritual family, and when I use spiritual, I don't mean unreal, I mean like super real. The the actual relationship of affection and familial bond that we have in the church, in the household of faith, can can at times feel even closer than our biological relatives. Uh there's one other word that comes up that I wanted to speak to briefly about, and it's the word household. And when we think of a household, in our cultural context, we we think of a single family dwelling, husband wife, 2.5 kids, we think that's a uh a typical American household, even though the reality is uh American households have a a lot of different shapes to them. The word household in the new in the New Testament actually describes something that's a little different than what we than what we're used to. So uh we see this, for example, in Acts 16. Uh so we see Lydia, who is this wealthy merchant trader from Thyatira. Her husband's not identified, but her household comes into view. And who is that? It's probably it's a term that. That refers to the whole social group that's around her. So maybe that's husband and some children, maybe that is some extended biological relatives, but that's also including under that umbrella the people who work for her and their families. And so people of means in the first century, or even middle class people, have a have a household, meaning there's a larger extended group of primary relationships in their lives. My point in that is when you hear the language of household, don't restrict that just to your wife and kids, that the household is it's really your sphere of relationships that you work closely with. And so I think that means very practically that people who work, the people they work closely with, that they have a level of obligation to be pointing those people to Christ. They're gonna you're gonna see if you're a teacher, the students that you're teaching and their families, you have a level of relationship. That doesn't mean you're showing up on their front door every night to say, it's time for the nightly devotional, I'm leading it, let me into the house. But there is a sense that life is lived uh together and relationships that we have. Most people come to faith through their immediate family and their church family, and I think what the New Testament describes as a household. And so um very concretely, I think this means I think that it's one of the most profound Christian actions to like host international students in your home. Celebrate Christmas, Easter with your family, but bring someone to the table that maybe's never seen it before. The the table in your home is a great place to encounter the love of Christ. And so just like the temple, you have the ministry happening in the sanctuary proper, you have all this activity in the courts, and then you have the outer court where you have proximity to the things of God. So I think as we manage our own familial relationships and the primary task of disciple making, you know, we we took our kids when they were young, we took them on mission trips with us. We brought them with us to all these spaces of ministry. So um I think it can be a danger if all of your energy is pointed internally into your home. You end up it's a danger. I'll just call it a danger for what it is. You can end up making an idol out of your own nuclear family and out of your own parenting. And I think God's template, if you will, of the family it is meant to share life, but there's uh life is shared with with others in community, you know, on your street, in your neighborhood, in the local congregation, and in your in the household spaces that God allows for you.
SPEAKER_00That was a long answer. It was an excellent one. Well, Pastor David, do you have any other final thoughts you'd like to share with us about why families or even family language or the concept of family, why that matters to God?
SPEAKER_01I think my my final thought about that is um I think one of the most beautiful lines in the New Testament, uh, and it's said in a couple of places in different ways, that you know, Romans 8, God's goal in redemption is to make us more like Christ, and we as glorious as that is, then without pause, the scriptures tell us so that Christ would be the firstborn among many brothers. So even like the outcome of redemption is expressed in the language of a growing family, and I just find it really orienting. You know, I grew up in a in a pretty broken family, and um coming to faith, the word of Christ has proved so fruitful in my own family, my own biological family. All of my siblings are committed believers now. My mom is, it's just God's word is is fruitful and it multiplies. And serving as a pastor, I I've just been so richly blessed by seeing myself and experiencing the love of God in and through the family of God in the local church. And I've also see that the mutual affection we have as Christians for one another is very real. And it's an orienting category for life to feel like God places us in families and in the greatest family of all, which is his family. And we have a father whom we can admire and love and is dependable, and we can respect, and we can together seek to be about the father's business. I feel like when I'm working, serving, doing my ministry in the church or outside, I feel like I'm working the family business in a way that I just love to be part of. So it's a fruitful and helpful and orienting category, God's design for the family.
SPEAKER_00Well, Pastor David, brother.
SPEAKER_01Amen. Thank you for your time today. It's great to be with you, John.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for listening to Discipling Kids Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe so you can receive the latest updates about new episodes and other events.