The Power of Pre-Writing: From Blank Page to Clear Plan

Have you ever stared down a blank page, unsure of how to attack it? Have you ever sat among a pile of library books wondering how to turn them into a research paper? If so, tune in to learn how to approach any writing task confidently!

In this conversation, we discuss what leads up to a strong first draft: choosing a topic, gathering materials, and turning loose notes into a solid outline. We’ll explore three phases of prewriting–conception, brainstorming, and outlining–that organize the process and reduce stress. Learn how to make a strong start whether you’re considering your Common App essay, composing a cover letter, or adding text to a website.

Join us @ netcollective.org or wherever you get your podcasts. We’re here to help you: Navigating Everything Together, from classroom to college to careers & beyond. One conversation at a time. 

#netcollective, #writtenexpression, #writing, #collegeessay, #organization, #brainstorming, #outlining, #projectplanning,#prewriting, #researchmethods, #netcollectivepodcast

Learn more at Netcollective.org

Follow us on:

IG @netcollectivepodcast 

FB - NET Collective Podcast

Transcript

Kay 0:00

Pre-writing. I didn't have less much left in the tank. Then you lose the content and the message that you're trying to actually convey. And it can create a sense of failure. Going from conception to brainstorming to outlining to starting with not a blank piece of paper.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Welcome to Net Collective, where we navigate everything together, from classroom to college to careers and beyond. I'm Kay McBrudy, career coach and founder of Waterville Partners. I'm Vanita Patel, school psychologist in private practice. I'm Ruth Hayes, education professional and founder of Fultio Practice. Net Collective, navigating everything together. One conversation at a time Welcome everyone to the next episode of Net Collective, where we navigate everything together. This is Vanita and Kay and Ruth. And today we are going to start our written expression series. And so this is episode the first episode in that series. And Ruth, you are going to kick us off with pre-writing.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Yes. So we're going to be going through the entire process of writing from pre-writing through editing. The other episodes that are coming up are going to be research, drafting, editing, and then we're going to have a deep dive into the college essay, which I know we're all looking forward to. So today is going to be pre-writing. This is basically everything you do before you sit down to write your first draft. So we're going to break it down into three main topics conception, brainstorming, and outlining. And so we're going to talk a little bit about each one of those. So the first one I want to talk about is conception. And this is kind of the pre-thinking. This is before you're even doing an outline. This is just kind of thinking about what you want to do. So the first part of that is to consider your audience and your genre. So what kind of writing is this? Is it technical? Is it scholarly? Is it narrative? Is it fiction? And think about what you would need to do to fulfill each of those. So I know one of the ones we've talked about a lot, Kay, is the distinction between academic and professional writing, which can be a difficult leap for some new new grads to make because you've been doing academic writing your entire life and that's what you've been planning for. What do you see as some differences between those two genres?

Kay 2:16

It's interesting because I think of the written expression as another communication vehicle, right? There's the language, but then there's the written. And when you think about the different writing pieces, it's really how do you get your messages across? And not in a paper per se, but it might be in an email, it might be in a report, it might be in a cover letter or resume. And so they have to really rethink how are, you know, reframe their audience and all those pieces. And it's there is not necessarily the same formula that they've used to write their papers up until this point. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

And that's why I really wanted to make this general, because people have to do so many different writing tasks. Um, and a lot of times we are only prepared for the scholarly. And when you can think about what those abstract steps are, you can prepare yourself a lot better. Writing emails is a great example. Um, I've received plenty of messy and disorganized emails, and I always put a lot of time into that, even just thinking about what you want to do, what you're trying to communicate and convey.

Kay 3:15

Well, and even written handwritten notes are something that you don't see very often. And I always say to my clients, if you really want to stand out, I mean that's great if you send a thank you email, but what if you actually wrote one? Oh yeah. It's a lost art. It it is, it is. So you can, I mean, again, how do you write a crisp thank you note or something?

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Exactly. And honestly, I feel like physical objects are getting so much more precious because everything is digital and everything is online. So that's a great way to make yourself stand out. I'm a huge fan of doing drafts of something that I'm gonna write by hand because I know I only maybe got one of those cards. I want to use it wisely. So I will like go over drafts of something, if you know, for a card for a new baby or something, just so I can make sure I have everything down. Um so that brings us to another part of conception. This is really part of the entire process, um, but we'll start here note-taking. Um so we want to be writing this down. Get as much out of your head as you can throughout the process. Um, organize it in a way that makes sense to you, especially when you're thinking about conception. Don't worry about Roman numerals, don't worry about what this is gonna look like or what's gonna happen. Just jot down what you're thinking about. And that can be things like, you know, words to use or avoid, it can be people that you're focusing on, it can be topics, it can be, you know, general areas of research that you want to look at. Um but just get everything down. Um so there are lots of ways to organize that.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Could this be as simple as bullet points? A hundred percent. Because sometimes I'm a big fan of bullet points because you know, I talk a lot, we talk a lot about brain dumping, and I feel like I don't want to worry about how my uh notes look at this moment in the process. I just want to get it out so I don't forget. I want to free up my mind to do the harder step. So can this pro can this point in the pre-writing process of note-taking just be just is it do you are you giving us permission to be messy or disorganized?

SPEAKER_02 5:15

Is that okay? You have permission to be as messy as you want to be until you get to that last version. Gotcha. And that's one of the things I want to, probably the most important thing I want to emphasize throughout this conversation is that this has to work for you. You're the only one who's doing this task. And unless you're, you know, in middle school and someone's teaching you how to do your first research paper, no one's gonna look at this, no one's gonna look over your notes. It's not for anything other than to help you. Um, so I think that's a great idea. If you if it will help you to use formats, and you know, we've talked about a few as we're getting ready. Cornell notes is a great one where you kind of divide the paper into columns for title headings and then your general notes, and you can summarize at the bottom. Um, I love doing index cards. Um, you can use that with the traditional like outlining method that we'll get to a little bit later, or just in general, to kind of have either um references, you can put biographical details there, or just any little scrap of something, and they're so portable and they're not attached to anything else, and I find that very, very liberating.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

And you can do them in different colors too, like color-coded note cards. So if if you're collecting data on this author for your research paper that can be in one color and such such and so forth, so it can there's some different ways to organize it as well if you use note cards. But I feel like a lot of students don't use the note cards. Why is that?

SPEAKER_02 6:35

I think it's just we live in such a digital world. Yeah and I think people are used to looking at things on screens. But I've actually, and don't quote me on this, but I believe there's been research done that if you write something with your hands, you have better recall than if you type it out. And that's what I find too. There's also just so much more flexibility. Like there are a lot of different programs you can use to you know put your ideas together, put things together, but I've just never seen anything that matched the utility of writing something down and drawing an arrow to another thing I wrote down.

Kay 7:02

Okay, this is a curious question. Do you think because in a lot of places they may not teach handwriting the way they did years ago, that sometimes the students are more comfortable with the keyboard than they are with a pencil or a pen? And that's part of it?

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Yeah, I I think it's habit. I think part of it is habit. And you know, I I think that to Ruth's point, there is a uh um what's that called, like a a neuron firing when you pick up a utensil and you're gripping it in the way that you're supposed to, and you're forming the letters and people can't see me, but I'm actually air writing right now. There is a a wiring that happens in in our brain system that I think is linked to recall and is linked more to precision, you know. So yeah, I think that's another lost art is writing with you know using paper and pencil.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Oh yeah. In another 20 years, cursive is gonna be an archival skill. Like you're gonna learn that deep into a history career.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

So you can look at primary documents. I think that there are some high schoolers right now that don't know how to write their name in cursive. Oh, yeah, because they haven't learned. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. So I know this is talking a lot about the physic physical aspect of writing, which is a bit of a detour, but it all goes together. Oh, 100%. With pre-writing, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

It all goes together. And then you want to have your eye on the entire process as you're doing it. You want to make everything you do as efficient as possible, which is one of the reasons I'm going to advise you to save everything when you're taking notes. Um, keep things together. You don't have to look back at them, you don't have to use them, but you never want to waste thoughts. So if there's a book that you come across and you're not going to use for this paper or an idea that you have, or even just a line of prose that you have, get that somewhere because you might come back to it. Um and then also freestyle note-taking, just get a notebook, get things down. To your point, Vanita, about writing things down physically, that also gives you the freedom to draw things and to organize things more visually, because depending on the kind of learner you are, the way you inform you organize information in your own brain, that's going to be more or less um helpful for you.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Meaning it doesn't just have to be words.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

It does not just have to be words. Yeah. I'm a huge fan of arrows. Um that's right. When we talk about outlining, we'll get there because I'm always thinking about kind of causality and how I'm making a logical link. So a lot of my very early outlines will just be single words with arrows in between them, maybe names. And then you can kind of fill in everything as you go. Also, part of conception, I would say the initial research, and we're gonna have a whole episode dedicated to research and doing a research project, so we won't get into that too much. But I will say finding books about your topic is something you need to do way before you make an outline. Um, so that you can see what's there. You don't you want to have most of your materials gathered before you do any of the next steps, not all of them, through you know, brainstorming, through um outlying, and even through drafting, you'll find other things that you want to talk about, you'll bring in other resources, but you should have a basic sense of what you're going to use before you get ready.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

And I would think that would depend on the s the genre of writing you're doing, right? Like if this is a narrative, unless you're making a comparison with your life and someone else's life through an autobiography that they've written, I I would think that what you're saying about bringing in a bunch of books has more to do with like research writing. Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Well, you're not gonna bring in a bunch of books about yourself, but I will say that you can do a similar process. So, you know, definitely if you're doing something that requires other people's work, put all of that together. But if you're going to be writing about, say, a particular time in your life for a college essay, I would spend a little time just jotting down what you remember without thinking about what you're gonna put it together as, how what even what narrative it is, just write down everything that you have. And that's kind of your raw material. That's your research that you you have to start with. And that will save a lot of um the time, but also some of the uh just save some of the feelings of going through those and and reliving memories as an actual process as opposed to writing about them after you've expressed them.

Kay 11:09

When you're collecting all the raw information, is it helpful to think about the end result at any point or just save that for later in terms of, you know, what are the takeaways that I'm wanting for this paper? What do I want my audience to I'm thinking of a college essay, for example. Like what is, do you think about, you know, what are some of the buckets in terms of what you want to convey?

SPEAKER_02 11:32

So I would put that into um brainstorming. And we're gonna get to that in a second. All right, yeah, and I and that's why I want to make such a clear distinction because it is really easy to kind of cross your streams with this kind of stuff, and you can wind up being less efficient than you want to. Got it. Um so I would say definitely do it all. You can be, obviously, you're thinking about what the assignment is or what you're trying to do, but I would say just keep keep a completely open mind. This is just gathering stuff, seeing what's there. Um and then I would pick a loose topic based on your materials and notes. And so by topic, that can be, you know, a specific area of research that you want to uh work with. It can be a specific period in your life that you want to write about, it can be a specific person that you want to address, but kind of make a decision about where you're going. And that's the really the culmination of the conception process, right? So you have an idea vaguely of what you want to do with this, and then you can start planning it a little bit more. Um, the other piece that I would put into the conception bucket is just your executive functioning and kind of pre-planning the entire process. Um, and we have a great episode about um kind of how to do this, how to get yourself going on different projects. But Vanita, if you could jump in and just talk a little bit about how to plan for doing projects.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Right. Yeah. Uh planning and doing, you know, as as we talked about in one of our previous episodes, they do rely on different skill sets within our brain. So you can have a great plan. And since we're talking about writing, we'll stick, you know, we'll use that as the example. You can have a plan for writing. Like I am going to, you know, here's the brainstorming. I have these ideas that I want to include. These are the words I want to include. This is a topic, but then stringing it all along together, that is taking it to another level. That's, I mean, all of it is doing because we are we brainstorming is still doing, right? It's thinking and it's doing. So that's great. Once you have that part, then you have to string it all together. And if you think about writing in general as a whole, you think about all the executive functioning skills and behaviors you need to just write a paragraph. You have to think about the topic, you you're brainstorming, you you come up with the thesis, you come up with your topic sentence, and then you write the thing, and then you have to go back and edit it. You know, so think of all of those steps and think of all of the executive functioning pieces that go with that, just the writing, right? You have to organize your thoughts, you have to manage your time, you have to stay engaged, you have to be regulated, you have to be connected to the topic. So, you know, yeah, that there there's certainly um I we do find that of all the academic uh pieces, written expression is correlated with uh executive functioning because of all of those skills that I just mentioned.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Yeah, it's literally the process of getting things from the inside of your skill to the outside of your skills.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

To the outside.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

And that is why pre-writing is so important, and that is why I'm so glad you're breaking it down for us, because there was a time where I think pre-writing really wasn't really as emphasized as it is, and it has been for for several, several years now. But I can't imagine not pre-writing for anything that I do write.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Exactly, because you have to know where you're going. Um, and that brings us right into brainstorming. Um, and brainstorming is often confused with conception and outlining, but I really consider it a distinctive phase. So, brainstorming is what happens after you've gathered those initial materials. You know generally what direction you're going in, but you need to think more specifically about what that's going to look like. So, what how what argument do you want to make? Um, what's your specific thesis? And you know, the brainstorming process is going to culminate in if you're doing an argumentative piece of work, a scholarly piece of work in your thesis, in a loose structure if you're doing something more narrative or something professional, um, so that you know what you're doing when you sit down to write that outline. I think a part of the distress that can come in from outlining is kind of sitting there and saying, Well, wait, what am I actually trying to do here?

SPEAKER_01 15:44

This is challenging my way that I used to think about pre-writing because I always thought that brainstorming came first. So brainstorm brainstorming, you have to have something in in the street.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

What are you brainstorming for? Yeah. So that I think can be really good because brainstorming is a process. You're thinking about it, you're forming the information into something, the germ of something that you're gonna turn into an actual piece of writing. Conception, you're not doing that. You're just gathering the resources you need to do that. And I think that can take a lot of pressure off of both of those phases of it, because when you're gathering materials, you can read an article without thinking about how you're gonna use it or how it's gonna fit into your thesis, because you don't have that yet. You're just gathering materials, you're taking notes, you're seeing what's there. And then you're honing that through the brainstorming process.

Kay 16:33

Aaron Powell Okay, so here's a weird question. Can you do both? Can you do some pre-brainstorming, if you will, or do some initial um thinking in that, then do your gathering, and then do the conscious brainstorming that you're talking about. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Do you mean at the same time? Well, conseculate or not consequently. I mean, I guess I'm saying concert. Yeah. Well, but can you start with some brainstorming like you normally do with your process, then focus on the gathering piece, and then really do maybe the more formal brainstorming. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I don't know. I'm just it's yeah, I have to.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

You're brainstorming ideas. I'm brainstorming ideas on how to do this.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

And that's why I put in like that first consideration. You're like thinking about it, and that's you know, that's usually the the word that we would use for it, but I'm kind of that kind of idle, all right. I have this thing, what are some things, what are some topics I could look at? What are some ways I could do it? Kind of have uh a few different paths in mind. Yes. When you're brainstorming, you've chosen a path, but you're not sure exactly how you're gonna get there. Got it.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Okay. I like that.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

So key elements of brainstorming, um, I would include free thinking. And this is just your subconscious, these are your shower thoughts, letting ideas and resources knock around in your head and kind of combine themselves. I think this is a very, very important part of the process. Um, and also takes a lot of stress and pressure off of you when you are outlining and doing your drafting because you've kind of chased down all these leads. You've let your mind do it. Sometimes you'll do this just without even thinking about it, without even noticing, and things will bubble up. I noticed, for example, when I became a parent, I had to start kind of planning in time that I was going to be thinking about this because you've just got so many other things in your mind. Um, but you can even be doing a different activity. So, for example, when I was getting ready to um outline this this episode, I spent some time, I was chopping vegetables for dinner, and I was just thinking about what are some different ways I can put it together. What are some and then when I sat down to actually start taking notes, there is something there. And you can do it with less pressure. Um, and you may need to plan that in if your schedule is tight with caregiving or school or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

And if showers, and if you can't remember, right, that's just it. I think I said in one of our uh previous episodes, I do a lot of my thinking in the shower. I don't have note cards in the shower. So what if you forget? Like what do you do you just try to keep it in the front of your brain or keep repeating it to yourself? Like when you're you know chopping the vegetables and you're thinking, oh, this would be a great idea to prep for tomorrow's episode. You know, did you have something to write right next to you?

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Or I I generally do, just because that's how I am. You're a writer. I generally absolutely write within any room I'm in. But yeah, I would I would take a break. Like maybe don't get out of the shower, you have things to do. But like put down the knife, write down your note, and come back to it because that's another way to keep a thought from escaping.

Kay 19:26

Aaron Powell Sometimes people will do I'll do voice memos to myself. Oh, that's a good idea. I'll send either a text message to myself, you know, with a voice memo or something so that I don't so I don't lose that thought.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Aaron Ross Powell That's a really great one. I think that's one we've lost a little bit as a culture because 30, 40 years ago, that was a whole thing, like note to self, and you'd like to be dictating into your thing. And I think that can be a really good way to organize some of these thoughts without the pressure of putting them on paper. Great suggestion.

Kay 19:52

Aaron Powell And we loop back to the digital. Yeah, exactly. Back to the digital, using it to your advantage.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. And the takeaway for all of this is to do what works for you. So if you find it's better to keep all of your notes in one document so you can move things around, do that. If you want to have index cards, so you can mix them and match them and throw them around, do that. If you want to have a notebook, do that. Um and speaking of mixing them around and throwing them all over the place, next up would be concept mapping. So this is kind of using those freeform notes, those, you know, just experiences that you've jotted down to look at, look for some narrative through lines, look for the germ of a thesis, look for cause and effect relationships, and think about the logical progression of the information that you're gonna lay out. What's the scope of it? What do you really need to focus on? What do and don't you need of this information, and how are you gonna put it together? Um, there are myriad electronic options to do this where you can do a concept map and do different things, and basically it's completely free form. You can make just circles and put things in them, connect things with lines. I really like doing this on paper, as we've talked about, doing a little analog. And index cards are great because they're just completely mobile. You can take your index cards and lay them out on the floor in different combinations and move them around, and I feel like that's a very, very useful piece.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

So is this the start of organizing all of your brainstorming notes and your conceptual notes? This is a start of organizing. Yeah, correct.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

This is organizing it, starting to look at what will be the content of the writing that I'm actually going to do, right? And so the end the end goal of the brainstorming process is that you have a thesis or you have um a loose structure for the narrative piece that you're writing, you know what ground you're going to cover. And now you're ready to start going there.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

So graphic organizers would be under concept maps, right? Yes. Or okay, yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

And I think that's just nomenclature because I would consider graphic organizers a type of concept map, but some people would say the opposite. Right. That brings us to outlining. So you've done all this, you've thought about it, you know what kind of thing you need to do, you've put your resources together for the most part, you have notes to review, you have an idea. Of what where you want to be going with it. The outline is when you're writing down an actual roadmap for this piece you're going to make. And I use roadmap very intentionally. An analogy I use a lot with my students because a lot of people won't want to do an outline. It's you can see the necessity for something like a large research paper, but I would suggest doing an outline even for, you know, a 50-word college supplement, right? So that you know what's happening. And I've heard had many, many people tell me, you know, I don't have time to do that. I'm really crunched, you know, even if it's a timed essay or something. And I always say that's kind of like saying you don't have time to look up directions because you've got to get going. Where are you going? Exactly. You have to know where you're going. And it's going to make it so much easier.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

I wonder, can I can I interject for one second? When I think of the word outline, a visual image pops into my head and it's not a pretty one. It is one of those from when I went to school a thousand years ago. They were the outlines that that are embedded in my head are complicated. But I think what you're saying is it doesn't have to be the complicated with the Roman numeral one and then the, you know, and then the subheading and then the A, B, C, and D, and then the one, two, three. Those days, I I I'm I'm hoping they're over. I would like to think that there's more simplistic ways to outline.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Yes, absolutely. And that's actually where I was gonna go first. The classic formal outline structure is that, right? You know, you have your you're separated into topics, that's your Roman numeral, the capital letters for subheading, you know, and you kind of organize your notes that way. If that works for you, that is a great process. Use it. Um, it always just created more work and confusion for me. Um that's definitely the way I was taught to outline in school. And, you know, as they're teaching you, you have to turn the stuff in. So I'd you know, be doing that. So it's always more about producing the document than doing anything that was actually gonna be useful for me. And I don't know if anyone else is like this, but I tend to get in my head about, you know, like you were saying about the bullet points about how the formal designations for things. So I'm sitting there, like, is this a capital letter or a a Roman numeral? Is this gonna be a local case letter?

SPEAKER_01 24:07

You know, where do I house this statement that I want to make sure? But is it better with the Roman numeral B or under one? You know, it's like you know, letter B or one. Yeah, that's where I would and I would spend so much of my mental capacity on that. Yes. I didn't have less much left in the tank.

Kay 24:23

So then you lose the content. Yeah, and the and the message that you're trying to actually convey.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

And it can create a sense of failure because I'm I'm failing to do the outline the way I'm supposed to. So how am I going to write this? When really it's it's the outline that's failing you. So it is a very it's it can be useful if you want to organize it that way, if you want to use it as a template when you're doing something larger and more complex. But I would say just do it in a way that works for you. It can those formal ways can be useful, but if it doesn't work for you, do something more personalized. So for example, I don't usually divide out my large topics first because that's something that kind of more emerges from the text. So I'm thinking usually in terms of cause and effect, in terms of argumentation, and in terms of the logical flow of information. And so if you can get that down, you know, the larger groupings I think will kind of emerge for you. So I do a lot of bullet pointing, a lot of, you know, just words with arrows between. Um I'm a big fan if you are doing a research paper. If you know you're gonna use a quote, if you know there's something you're gonna say, just write it in. You can always take it out later, but you want to have as much stuff there when you actually do start drafting. Um and then that includes not just quotes and things, but anything that you come up with. So if you think of a segue you want to use between two topics or a turn of phrase that's really useful for this subject that you're talking about, just write it down in the outline. That's one piece of writing you don't have to do in the drafting process.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

I have a question about uh I know we're talking about pre-writing. Okay, I get that. So so I know you're gonna continue to talk about, you know, the actual writing phase and the editing phase and all of that. But do you ever think it's a good idea when you're starting this early on in in an essay, you know, that someone has to write, uh to set small goals for yourself? Um like uh one of my goals is to not use the word very, V-E-R-Y, or or you know, be use more adjectives or descriptor words as I am starting, you know, this this particular writing assignment. Like where would you recommend that? And if so, when would that come in?

SPEAKER_02 26:34

I would say it would come in once you're really solid on the other um steps of the process. So, you know, you're far enough advanced in your professional or academic career that you feel good about being able to synthesize information, you feel good about being able to get something down, and then it becomes more about the, you know, really the the nitty-gritty of editing and thinking about word choice and word frequency and all those kinds of things. So I think it's good. I wouldn't think of it as a goal, just in terms of the way you're kind of addressing it psychologically, you don't want to think of it as something you're trying to do, but something you're kind of keeping in mind. So I really like that. So one one thing I'll do is I'll recommend students um create a word bank. So if you've been overusing very, right, you know, write down a couple of synonyms. If there's a particular noun that's gonna be used a ton in a research paper, just write down some synonyms so you can cycle through them and not have to think about it. Maybe even beforehand. Oh, yeah. You could even start your own word bank. Exactly. I've literally gone in around and like checked off each time I used one to make sure that I'm because word frequency is something that's a huge like pet peeve of mine for some reason. So I'm always looking at how often I'm using things. So that can definitely help if there's something that you want to uh passive voice is another one, you know, if you want to make sure you're not doing that.

Kay 27:45

I was gonna say, but that usually comes in the editing phase, right? As opposed to maybe in this pre-planning phase. Um and I I mean when I've done it, I actually um you know, I've got two in college now, but when they were younger, we had a dead word bank. And so there were dead words like very and some of these others, and we we said, don't use those, you know. And we would go back afterwards and edit those out.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

But I wonder if using that not waiting until the editing phase because you want so if you look at writing as a continuum, right? I wonder if it's better to be aware of that and practice that earlier rather than later. Be more proactive with the words you want to use or avoid rather than use them and then take them out.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Yeah, if there's something that, you know, if you're at the level where you're thinking about that, and it especially, you know, as you're conceiving the topic and as you're doing your brainstorming, you're thinking about I need to work on my word choice or I need to avoid passive voice or anything like that. Definitely do it. I would put that under take notes and save everything. Because if anything like that occurs to you, just jot down. I need to watch out for not saying the word lemur too too much, right? Because we're gonna be talking about a lot of lemurs right now. Um that can come at any time. And you know, whenever you think of something useful, it doesn't have to be on what you're doing. That's why I think it's so freeing to get rid of the Roman numerals because you're never thinking, like, well, is this isn't the time to think about this thing. This isn't the time to jot this thing down. No, it is. It's right now. Do it. It's right now, do it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

And that's why the pre-writing is so significant. It's such a significant step. You don't just ever start writing. Yeah. Even even if it is a small paragraph, at least you can think about it and jot down a couple of things, right? How much time do you think some of these steps?

Kay 29:32

Is there like a guideline for how long these things might take people? Or uh is it everybody's different?

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Yeah. Every piece of writing is different, every person is different. So it really depends on how you are. If you really need to organize things visually and see what everything looks like, you might spend a little bit more time on, you know, the the brainstorming. Um if you for me, my outlines are very close to a draft because the the blank white page is the most terrifying part of the process for me. So I'm doing my outline, but I'll write down whole sentences if I think of them. I'll put in whole things if I think of them. So really the right way to do it is however it helps you the most and however it's most efficient for you.

Kay 30:11

Well, and probably back to one of the concepts that you had talked about earlier, um, Vanita, is just to plan. When you're planning, plan your time so that you that you not only appreciate that there's now a pre-writing piece, but how that you have to allot some time to that. Yeah, block whether that time out whether it's in the shower, whether it's walking the dog or cutting the vegetables, you need to block out some of that time.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Exactly. And that's something I've encouraged students to do. Um, and I would encourage, you know, professionals or if you need to do, you know, writing in your adult life to try this as well. Um, like we were talking about before, make a checklist of every single um uh thing you need to do to complete this project, and that includes like finding books, finding books, reading them, and taking notes on them, making bibliography um entries for them, those are all separate tasks, right? And then I'll have them estimate how long it's going to take. So just write that down and then write down how long it actually took. And we can come back and review it. So I think that's a really good way to get a handle on your process. And then if you feel like you're spending way more time on something than maybe you should or you want to, that's something you can ask someone else about, ask for help with.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

So before we wrap up, you talked about the three um three uh what's the word? Three phases? Phases of pre-writing. So can you just give us a one or two sentence overview of each phase? Just to wrap it up into a nice little bow.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Yeah. So conception is basically deciding what you're going to do broadly. So what type of writing do you have to do? What's the assignment? When is it due? What kinds of things are you talking about? This is your initial research where you're just kind of trying to figure things out and gathering information, not really directed yet. And this is also a time to sit down and kind of plan out from with your executive functioning skills how you're going to work on the rest of the project.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Um, and then you move on to brainstorming. Once you have the basic information gathered, once you've written down those autobiographical notes, once you have a little bit of loose stuff, then you can start to hone it a little bit more. So look over those notes and see what emerges. What's a good thesis idea? Um, what's a vignette that you want to share? How do you want to link these ideas and events? What's a narrative through line that you might have? Um that can happen as much on paper or in your head as you want or need it to. Um but you want to come up with a process that's gonna work for you. And if you have anyone to bounce it off of, you can talk about it. I find talking through what you're doing both makes it less daunting and helps you to recognize what you're doing. It becomes real. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Kay 32:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

And the more you hear yourself and and and you're you're coupling it with writing things down, just solidifies that knowledge, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:54

Exactly. So you have it ready to go and save everything. That's for all of these phases. Save every single thing you write and everything you come you come across. And so then the final phase is outlining. And that's when you're really writing down your roadmap for what you're going to do. So you have your thesis in hand, and now you're really thinking about the structure. Where do I want to go in what order? What arguments do I want to make? How are they going to be supported? And how am I going to move between them? And the last piece of advice I'll give before we move on to the drafting process is to copy and paste that outline into a new document. Because you never want to start a draft from something blank. So you have it in there, you can write over it, you can just delete the outline as you go through with the actual draft, so you always have a full document. That's probably the best piece of advice I can give you for really leveraging that outline.

Kay 33:40

Awesome. Wonderful. Going from conception to brainstorming to outlining to starting with not a blank piece of paper. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Perfect. Excellent. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you guys. We'll see you next time. If today's conversation resonated with you, please share this episode with anyone who may need it and follow us at netcollective.org or wherever you get your podcast so you don't miss what's next. We are Net Collective, navigating everything together, one conversation at a time. Thanks for listening.