Lemme Ask You This

Episode 10 - Ignorantly Delivering Knowledge featuring IDK

• Talib Kweli ^ Tef Poe • Season 1 • Episode 10

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Episode 10 - Ignorantly Delivering Knowledge featuring IDK


Episode 10 of Lemme Ask You This with Tef Poe and Talib Kweli begins with IDK talking about being born in London and how Talib and IDK met. Talib asks IDK about how he gets so many great features. IDK talks about the OGs in his life that he gets advice from. Tef asks IDK about his musical curation process. IDK breaks down how being an only child drove him to be more creative. IDK talks about how he never lets outside circumstances get in the way of his goals. Tef and IDK talk about working at Harvard University. Talib asks IDK about how being incarcerated as a young man impacted his drive and the discussion turns towards how artists operated during COVID lockdown. IDK talks about navigating jealousy from people in the industry and how sobriety helps him stay focused. IDK talks about his belief in the intangible and why he thinks believing in a higher power is intelligent. The conversation turns towards the similarities between science and religion and how fear of the unknown causes violence between human beings. IDK breaks down how growing up in diverse communities helps him to be more musically diverse and then talks about how he created the song Red with Mike Jones, MF DOOM, Westside Gunn and Jay Electronica. Talib asks IDK about working with Young Thug and Tef asks IDK about what he sees next for hiphop and IDK talks about rebuilding himself as an artist. Talib talks about the challenges of experimenting as a conscious artist. IDK explains how science is an art. Talib asks about who has the best jollof rice before talking about how Ghana is pushing for reparations. Tef asks IDK if being a deep thinker has hindered his success in a vapid industry and IDK explains why he is a good bet. The conversation turns towards the impact of Lofi and how different generations discovered the music of J Dilla, Madlib and MF DOOM thru Adult Swim. Talib talks about doing a TV show in Tanzania with Cameron Diaz. IDK talks about performing on the Tonight Show with Black Thought and Kaytranada.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, man. Yeah, man. Uh, how often do you get to go to London?

SPEAKER_04

Um I say once or twice a year. Do you still got people out there? Yeah, my grandmother. I mean, well, my aunt. So my aunt, my mom, my mom's sister. She's out there. I got my sisters on my dad's side. Um, the, you know, they're out there too. And that's really mainly it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

My name is Talib Kwali.

SPEAKER_00

I'm Tef Poe.

SPEAKER_01

And in case you don't know, this is IDK.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You know what I'm saying? What's up, IDK? What's up? And a lot of people don't know that he was born in the UK, but raised in the DMV in PG County specifically. You know what I'm saying? And this is the second time we sat down, had a conversation. The first time that I met you was on People's Party. You were actually the first guest on People's Party ever that I did without knowing who the person was before I sat down.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, wow. I never did that before. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because my it was based on, you know, interpersonal relationships. And you were somebody that Bermucci and Jared brought to me. It was like, yo, we should, we should interview this guy because he's doing his thing.

SPEAKER_04

That's fine.

SPEAKER_01

Right. So I had to like look you up and research you before I even agreed to it. Because I wasn't familiar. And I when I looked, I was like, okay, I see what's going on. So in that conversation, we sat down and we chopped it up and we became cool.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Nah, man. A lot of cool things came out of that. I for through you, uh, I actually, that's how I met Dave Chappelle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You start pulling up a yellow spring.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and then we formed our relationship. Uh, so there's a lot of cool things, and I get a lot of insight from you. Yeah. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01

We go down the phone. So me and Teff have these long conversations. I met Teff in Ferguson.

SPEAKER_04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Uh, during uh uh Ferguson Uprising, rest in peace to Michael Brown Jr.

SPEAKER_04

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01

And uh we have a lot of similar type of conversations where he be like, Well, let me ask you this. So that's why we started this show.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So it's like you and me, me and him have the similar, similar relationship.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, it's crazy. Yeah, man. Yeah, sometimes you need to counsel the OGs, man. You know, cast that's been through the the gauntlet before the insight of just a wise person in life in general, you know what I'm saying? Regardless of their position, you know what I mean? Respect. Nah, it's true.

SPEAKER_04

And that's that's I definitely like like a lot of how I even got to where I'm at is always been uh based around asking questions, you know. Uh contrary to popular belief, it's not I don't know for me. You know what I mean? I try to make it that as much as possible. You know, I try to know, I try to learn. Uh navigating certain things require very special attention. And sometimes you've got to talk to people who are in it to kind of understand it, you know? And that's I definitely do that.

SPEAKER_00

Facts, man.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

One of the things that made me realize that I should interview you is listening to your 2019 album, Is He Real?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And you had Put Your T on It. Mm-hmm. You had GLC at GLC on it. My big homie, the big Midwest, man. GL, what's up? And you had DMX on it. Wow. And you know, we spoke about that album because that was like new and fresh when we first started talking. So we spoke about that already on People's Party. If you want to check it out, you can still go check out IDK on People's Party. But since then, you've been able to do records with damn near anybody you could put your mind to. Like you like, if I want to do a song with somebody, I'm doing a song. Yeah. There's nothing stopping you, there's no obstacles in your way.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_01

So how are you doing this?

SPEAKER_04

Uh, well, it's like, one, it depends on each unique situation. Uh, the biggest thing, and I say I've said this before, is just having the audacity to even ask. I think people try to limit themselves and they put the pro the obstacle before the idea.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

People do that all the time. The obstacle before the idea is a bar. Yeah. And I just don't really do that. I I see the idea and I see how to make it possible. Um there's a plethora of other things that that that are, you know, have to be considered. Obviously, I have uh, you know, records with people who are no longer with us, and that requires uh very sensitive uh attention to detail in how you ask and how you go about making sure that all parties involved are properly, you know, uh taken care of one, you know, because you know the music industry and and some of the things that come along with that, and just comfortable. More importantly, making sure everyone's comfortable. So, you know, I just I think I I I do my best to uh ask the questions necessary from the people who uh can actually provide those answers. And then I go about it, you know, the way that I think is the right way.

SPEAKER_01

You're not just doing this with songs and production, though, because you also you make uh the beats and play the music as well. You also do it just with your career. Like you're into education, you're into fashion, you're into all different types of things. You're very versatile with your palate and diverse. Um where are you getting that from?

SPEAKER_04

Again, it's like I got OGs around me that are really good, and and I think I have a curation of places where I can obtain information. That's a great way to put it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So it's like I know for you, when it comes to anything underground rap, all that, and even beyond that, I can I got I can call you and understand the landscape of which I'm about to get into.

SPEAKER_01

We've had a lot of behind the scenes conversations. Yes. About a lot of things. Yes.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And and I have my friend A side when it comes to certain cultural things, or when it comes to fashion itself and in itself and things like that. Same thing. I got like, you know, if it's about life, there's a plethora of different people I can reach out to from my ranging from my grandfather to like the the barbershop I used to work at, the owner. You know, so I think what I've been able to do is curate or almost engineer how I'm able to receive information and from whom that information comes from. And then I take that and then I also tweak it to make it make sense the best way for me. And I think with that, I've had a high success rate of getting shit done.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I think that's really the honest truth.

SPEAKER_00

Right up. Let me ask you this, bro. Um, listening to your music, curation seems to be a big part of what you're doing. Yeah. Um, you know where to place things. Um you know what how to make the collaborations pop harder than they probably would pop on their own. Um how much of that really is a part of what you're doing, and maybe people aren't noticing that that's a high-level skill set of yours. Right.

SPEAKER_04

So, so what when people ask me what I do, obviously the easy answer is rap. I make music rap. But if I want to be honest, what I do is I solve problems. I understand how to produce. I know how to produce an idea. So there's an idea, and a lot of people have those. Very few people produce it into something that's real or a product or whatever you want to call it. So, from an overall standpoint, that's what I really do. And so, for me, um, when it comes to like music and as you say, making certain beats pop or being able to put things together, I am it starts from being a kid, only child. I remember my first imaginary friend, her name was Kimberly. She was based off of the yellow, I mean the pink Power Ranger. And that that was like my friend when I didn't have like toys and stuff like that. Now, I didn't grow up poor or nothing, but man, being African in lower middle class is almost like being poor sometimes. Because they don't want to spend nobody on nothing. You know what I mean? They they're like, you want a toy, they'd be like, go get a book. You know what I mean? So so for me, um I I literally had to find ways to imagine things. But then when I when I when I went when I was incarcerated, that allowed me to turn imagination or taught me how to turn imagination into an actual thing that exists, something tangible. And so I think what I do is I take, I see a problem, and I love solving problems, and I'm like, I wonder why MF Doom, J. Electronica, Mike Jones, and uh West Side Gunner ain't on a song. I like the idea of that. That sounds cool. It's a cool idea.

SPEAKER_01

The fact that you see that as a problem is fascinating. You're like, just I have to solve this issue. Not the song not existing.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, but that's the reality, right? And I want that to happen. And so then I solve it the best way that I can. And that not only involves the layer of creatively making it make sense the best way possible on the song, but then also you have to deal with the other aspect of the music, which is what it takes for it to come out in the world legally. And I have a good team around me of people that uh I've curated, put it together, and then we all come together and make it make sense. So I'm a I'm a I'm a I'm I can be scary to people. And the reason why I say that is because I'll sit here and say the craziest, wildest idea to you right now. And my lawyer said this to me was he's like, yo, but you like six months later, you'll really be doing that. And that's one of the, and I thought it was normal, but he let me know, like most people I know don't do that.

SPEAKER_01

It's creative visualization and it's speaking truth to power, and it's producing, like this might be a controversial take, but when I think of the best MCs, for me, for you to make my list of best MCs, you can't just be nice with the rhymes. You can't just be nice on the stage. You also have to be able to produce a product that can show people that you are nice on the mic. You also have to be able to, like, I need to see your body of work. And then it can't be any excuses. It can't be because I don't have a deal or nothing like the best MCs, you get it out no matter what. Right. That's part of it.

SPEAKER_04

Right. Yeah, that should be crazy. I learned this when I used to cut hair. They say a good barber never blames his tools. A craftsman, a good craftsman never blames his tools. That's right. It's like, man, if that's the case, then I got an excuse for everything. That's right. Even if I got a deal, I'd be like, oh, the label, they pushing this artist more than me. Or they didn't give me the budget for this.

SPEAKER_02

If you're the best, you can't be stopped.

SPEAKER_04

That's what I'm trying to say. Thank you, man. That's a ball. Absolutely. That's really like what it is. I don't really let circumstances dictate whether I can get something done or not. I understand the circumstances and I look at what's good within the circumstances. And I like the like like there's this feature that I'm I'm working on getting for this next record. This guy is never featured on anybody's songs in the the history of ever him ever working on anything. And I'm you know, I'm very close. They love the song. He's about to release some stuff and go on tour, but they like they didn't say no. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Which I like the fact that you like you said, that people put the obstacle before the goal. You set the goal, like, no, I'm doing this. And there is no, there is no no. It's it's the yoda of it.

SPEAKER_04

There is no try, there is only do. There's a caveat to that. This is a very important one, though. It has to make sense. It I have to believe it needs to be in this world. Yeah, and it's not just because I need it then, not just because of me. It's not selfish. That's what allows me the audacity to keep going because I could look crazy some of this stuff that I'm trying to figure out. But I'm like, I know what I'm doing is right. I know my intention is the right intention, and that is what guides me. If I didn't have that, I probably wouldn't make a lot of this stuff happen.

SPEAKER_01

It's like that quote from the departed. I didn't want to be a product of my environment. I made my environment a product of me.

SPEAKER_04

Damn. Wow. Yeah, that's that's corsai. A product of me. Yeah. That's that, but see, that's what it is. So it's like when I'm fighting with, not fighting, but when I'm on a commerce, uh, a conference call with Harvard General Counsel for two hours trying to explain my class and making sure we we can keep it going in an interesting climate, let's say, I know the reason is a good reason. It's not a selfish reason, and that's what guides me.

SPEAKER_01

Let's get into that. Both of y'all have worked with Harvard.

SPEAKER_04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So I would like to hear y'all compare and contrast experiences working with hip-hop in academic spaces like that.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, it's complicated. I was the Nasir Jones Fellow at Harvard. Nice. Uh, I was also an American Democracy Fellow as well. Um, and then I started uh, similar to you, uh a program that helped uh visual artists uh work with the institution to present um various uh projects that explained their worldview about different things pertaining to their local realities. Um COVID hit, so my students did they didn't get to come to the campus, but they still presented it through the uh university's means. Um but I spent a lot of time on campus and um I had some lonely nights, but I had some great nights too. Uh because I was able to get ingratiated into the black Boston community in a way, um the music community. Couple guys hit me up uh out there, they was like, yo, we fans of your music, we got a studio. I started working with these cats uh at this store called Mass Appeal. Uh and I met so many different people that I probably would have never met if I was like more not so uh if I was too afraid to actually mix it up with the local community. Um but outside of that, just being on campus, it could be very isolated and very lonely. For me, uh coming from St. Louis, Missouri, it was really more so about just turning over tables and taking advantage of every meeting and just expanding my connections.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, yeah. I mean, for me, it was just as simple as me remembering when I was in prison and trying to plan out my next moves, um, and then coming out, going to school, not being able to pay attention focus, thinking I wasn't smart enough to even be in college, and then getting into music and somehow navigating my way to where I am today, and then looking around, like, oh wait, everyone doesn't do this? And then when I started receiving praise for the my ability to think things through and accomplish things, I started realizing, man, I maybe I am smart at something. It's just I I really uh just gotta love it. And then I thought to myself, there's people in prison right now, and there's even just in the world that are just like me, but they don't have that example. Yeah. Um, I was forced to have that example because I couldn't fail. I just couldn't fail.

SPEAKER_00

Man, I'm same story.

SPEAKER_04

I couldn't fail. Facts.

SPEAKER_01

I've heard you talk about your prison experience and other interviews, and of course, in People's Party, we went over that in depth. So I didn't want to go back into like do the same type of interview, but I did want to ask because now it's been a few years since we had that conversation.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And so what I've seen from my own eyes, and what appears to me to be, is that a lot of your hustle and your ambition, and I've heard you talk about people being confused by your level of hustle and bit, like how is he getting this done? He must have a team, you know what I'm saying? Like how he got all these features. A lot of your drive, I feel like, comes from you ain't never sending me back to prison again.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It comes from like having your freedom taken away from you and being state property and knowing what that's like. And so you celebrate life in a way that other people who have not had the experience of going to prison may uh don't. Is that accurate to say?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, no, 100%. I think that uh I'm probably the most confusing person or rapper to a lot of people. Uh until you get to meet me and and and really sit down and talk to me, then it's it all makes sense. Right. But I think I I've had somebody mistake me. They were like, they they thought I was like an African prince or something. And I just had mad money. African king. Oh yes. But they thought I had like mad money and I just wanted to do rap, so I just started throwing money at rap. Like a lot of people, I've heard that actually. Really? That's like a conspiracy theory on the internet. Right. It's kind of crazy to know that, but uh it's flattering, you know. But uh unfortunately I have to work a little harder than that, you know what I mean, to get to get what I um get. But yeah, it's really because of that drive. I went to Sierra Leone when I was 14. I got to see real property, you know. I learned how to uh cut hair with a blade and a comb when I was in Sierra Leone. So when I got to prison, I knew how to do that. You know what I'm saying? It it was a lot to it. And uh and when I figured it all out, ultimately, the reality of it all was that, yeah, I came from really not having my freedom. It's funny you you mentioned state property. I forgot. That is technically what I was.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And so now you put me in the music industry after having all of those restraints and still overcoming them. This I'm not saying it's a piece of cake, but man, listen, I'm with it. You know, COVID, COVID, you're talking about I gotta stay in the house. That ain't nothing for me. Yeah, that's nothing. The house, I can still go to the grocery store, I could still play Call of Duty, I could still, you know what I'm saying? Girls could still come over. Like, that's that was nothing for me. I thought I was I probably thrived the most during COVID, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01

I have survived the guilt about that a little bit.

SPEAKER_04

Why is that?

SPEAKER_01

Because I did very well during COVID. Because I had because I was forced to change my thinking, I was forced to not be on the road and have to really think about where other revenue streams are gonna come from. Because my most most of my revenue is from touring. So when it's no more touring, I had to look, I had to go through my me and Federico sat down, I went through my computer songs I did that I never put out. I that I hadn't listened to in years. That's just I never had the time to go back to them. We started putting little projects together, People's Party went up. We did we got the Liberation album done, we got the Black Star album done, we did Midnight Miracle out in Yellow Springs. Like we was and because like I had to retrain myself to uh figure out how to how to go out there and get it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's real. Nah, but that's what it is. So it's like, listen, no matter what happens to me, you will never see me go and complain about certain shit on the internet pertaining to other people being a reason for something that I don't I don't have. Even if I even if I gotta holler at them man to man or on a phone. Or on them DMs. In the DMs, any of that, right? I just don't really just I don't really because I overcome everything. And that's what people like. That's why I'm like, listen, there's there's people out there who definitely are jealous of the things that I have or feel a way about what I do and have things to say, never to my face, but you know, I hear the whispers and things like that. And uh at the end of the day, all that m does not matter because I'm the kind of person that no words can stop me. I'm really like a product of that cliche, which is nothing can stop me but me. Like I really am like it's all here. That's why I don't I stopped drinking and stuff. I don't really, I don't smoke. I don't anything that can alter my mind, I don't I don't play around with it. Because this thing could get me out of any situation or into any situation. I'm able to create whatever my future is gonna be through this, you know? So I take really good care of it. And a lot of people, there's a few people that just kind of have things to say that that uh that that mostly don't know me, but like, you know, I realize this this is not gonna end very well for you if you really like if that bothers you that much, you know. That's right.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Let me ask you this, bro. Um how much uh of your life involves keeping some level. Of faith in the intangible active in your life. One million percent of it. I asked that because I noticed a lot of times as artists, I had to check myself on some a couple weeks ago. Sometimes we start looking at other scenarios, people who have low levels of faith, right? But they're very intellectual people. And what they're saying might sound right, but when you look at their life, you're like, you're nowhere near where I want to be, what I want to be, how I want to be living. Nothing about you is aspirational outside of the fact that you might be a little intellectual, but your faith levels ain't right. And I could tell because it is reflecting in how what's happening in your life. And I feel like just listening to you, you are a person who, without me knowing very much about your personal life, it seems that you have high levels of faith in yourself and other things.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Um, yeah, I know I believe in intangible 1 million percent. Um I think the most I would say the smartest people, and no no disrespect to anybody in this room if you don't believe in that intangible or God or anything, but I believe this is my personal opinion for whatever it's worth, the smartest people know at least that there's not they're not for sure that it doesn't exist. At least because it's just way too much that we're discovering on a daily basis, there's way too much information. We we know less than what we do know, right? We there's way more out in this world, in this universe that we don't know than what we do know. So if you are smart, you at least know that. And if you know that, then you can't shut down the idea of God now. You cannot believe for sure that God is, but you also can't believe for sure that it doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Or you just believe, yeah, maybe that there is a God.

SPEAKER_01

We just had Keris One on stage with all of us. I was all at the show. And uh I was watching an interview with Karis One around the same time where he said something that I had never heard before that resonated with me on this particular subject. Because, you know, got Karis One went from criminal-minded to spiritually minded. He went from heel to referring to himself as God. You know, he I think Karis One, I'm not, I'm not sure Karis One is five percent, but he speaks, he, he, his, his thought pattern, I think, unifies all the different conscious uh uh uh streams of thought, right? Particularly when it pertains to hip to hip hop. And he was talking about religion. And he said that uh he said, man, I love atheists. And it was it was the way he started that was weird because you know he's spiritual, you know he's like, he said, man, I love atheists. They're so interesting and they're so smart. And he was like, I got a lot of people I know who are atheists who their analysis of the world, because they're not emotional and not that they're not tainted with religious biases, their their analysis of the world is so on point and so smart. But I don't have the privilege of being one. And when he unpacked it, he was saying, not just because of being from marginalized people or melanated people, but also because when he was in the homeless shelter or in the parks when he was homeless, he used to be like, yo, I'm one day going to be the best MC in the world. One day I'm going to make the masses move. I'm going to be, and he said, I know for a fact that there's a higher power for me speaking those words as a man thinketh, so shall be. You know, he understands that. And he and uh so just from his own story and knowing the people he come from, it's like, yes, atheism makes sense logically. But we were talking, Aaron, we were talking about it early, earlier, that logic, we can't stop at logic. Logic is not the only thing that has value. 100%. And if you stop at logic, you're gonna end up a narcissist.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. And I and that's a great way to put it. I think too many things happen to me as a thinking person, or uh I I like I think I say high-level thinking, hopefully that that applies, you know, uh, or what people would agree.

SPEAKER_01

The real high-level man.

SPEAKER_04

Right. High level thinking. Uh uh I think um it's very clear to me that um there's too many quote unquote coincidences with certain things uh that I for me to say that there isn't a God. And honestly, the reality of it all is And there is there is no coincidence as well.

SPEAKER_01

That's which is what you're saying. Right. There's so many coincidences, it's not a coincidence.

SPEAKER_04

Nah, and and and and that being said, I think what confuses people is the word God and how it ties to religion specifically. But how about this for all my atheists out there? How about this? But what if we just call God a scientist? The scientist that engineered this world that made it so that oxygen was produced by trees, and then it went to the sky, and then air, and then water comes down, and waters the plants, and then in the ecosystem, right? There's no way. We know how this MacBook, well, we know this MacBook is a series of components that come together that work and allow you to work on this thing, this infinite world, where it's like the phone is flat. Right, but then like there's nothing back here. But if you go here, you could be in this phone for the rest of eternity and never get all of the information. But there's nothing right here. That is the work of God.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And what is what is the purpose of science? I mean, the scientific method, I think, the scientific method, right? You have to have an idea, have a theory, test it out, look at the results, and then wait a results, right? Because you are trying to figure something out that you don't know. Right. Trying to figure out the unknown. What's the purpose of religion? Trying to figure out the unknown. How do we get here? The whole point of it is questioning how did we get here? What is the purpose of all this? Where are we going? They're asking the same questions. They're just using different methods to gain those answers.

SPEAKER_04

I I think I actually had this conversation with one of the professors at the engineering school uh at uh at Harvard. And I was like, yo, I think all sciences is trying to figure out what God is.

SPEAKER_01

It's the same shit.

SPEAKER_04

It's literally that. It's like, it's like an explanation. It's like, all right, here's a great example. When you know when you wake up and you got sleep paralysis, some people be like, oh, it's REM sleep and your body shuts down or die. And some people like it's literally Satan trying to take over death demon.

SPEAKER_01

Same shit.

SPEAKER_04

It could be the same thing. And you know, but here's the pure.

SPEAKER_01

Here's why people have such a hard time accepting that on the science side and on the God side. Uh because in order to accept something that simple, that's very simple. You have to accept the fact that there's a lot of shit that you don't know. You have to be willing to upset, you have to be willing to accept the fact that the scientific method is trying to figure out things we don't know. You don't know. People argue about religion and be willing to fight to the death about what happens after you die, even though none of us know what happens after you die. None of us know that for sure. Because we ain't none of us here have ever experienced it. But people will argue to the death. No, this book says this. What you talking about? This book says this. No, and then they fight and they're killing each other over something we don't know because they don't want to admit, you know what? Maybe I don't know.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's the it's wanting to be right more than wanting to have a solution.

SPEAKER_04

And I could take it even a step further. It's the human being's inherent fear of the unknown. Every sin every little fear that we have on this earth is rooted in the unknown. That's right. It's about not knowing what's gonna happen. So we obsess about trying to figure it out. And in the process, we have these interesting issues. I am okay with the unknown.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I'm all right. I had to be okay with the unknown. I was locked up and I didn't know my release date. And I went up for parole and they denied me and put me on administrative refusal. And I didn't know when I was coming home. Like I had to be all right with the unknown. To embrace the uncertainty. And guess what? I could I took control of what I did know. And it's like, okay, I can write these ideas down. I know I'll get out sometime soon. I know my max release date would be this day. So let me just work backwards from that. And and um, and uh that whole idea of me like working on the uh being okay with the unknown is probably the foundation of a lot of my clarity. You know? Things are very clear to me because of that. So word up.

SPEAKER_00

Does that also kind of lead you into being able to write so many different styles of things because you're not settling in one positionality or one absolute worldview necessarily?

SPEAKER_04

Yes. Um, that definitely has a lot to do with that. The DNA though comes from something else mostly, and it's how I grew up. I mean, I was born in London, I came to America. I was two years old. My mother had me when she was 19, so she's young. So I grew up with my mother basically. Uh, she brought me by herself, so you know, my mom's from Sierra Leone, dad's from Ghana. Like, grew up in a DMV, got kicked out of middle school, went to middle school in Pennsylvania, did that for a little bit, came back, went to high school, got kicked out of five high schools, went to prison, went to boarding school in Kentucky. It's just all this the stuff. And in that, and all of those experiences, meeting different types of people, getting different palettes within my music, talking points, all these things. I've I've met almost every different type of person in a general sense. So now when I make music, I can connect to this style of music and that style of music equally, and it makes sense for me. You know, and I think that is really what the DNA comes from of diversity, at least. It's my life has just been diverse.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. All your projects are super diverse, but I feel like you see yourself as like you just going crazy. You're going crazy with the styles and with the features. You got the Neptunes, T-Pain, Sway Lee, Lucky Day, Slick Rick, Offset. That's just a few of them. But you mentioned the song earlier, Red, uh, J Electronica, West Side Gun, MF Doom. We performed it, a version of it on my set. That's one of my favorite songs by you. Can you tell us how that song came together?

SPEAKER_04

Uh, that particular song started with a beat from Illingsworth that had no drums on it. And I put drums on it and a little extra little thing, uh little uh vocal thing that was really catchy. And then um, knowing that I had the MF Doom thing that I'd done with him already, but I had extra pieces left, I wanted to put like a little piece of that in there. It wasn't supposed to be a feature, actually. It was just supposed to be like MF Doom vocals. Like gave him like a sample or something. Yeah, but then when he passed and we had the discussion, it was like, look, man, give him that love, give him that respect. Like, it's all good. You know, that's what we're gonna do for that. Um, me, Jay, like a tronaka actually DM'd about it and stuff too. And Jay, I just told him I was the last person I hit to get on there. Gunn sent me his verse in like 24 hours. It's quick. He recorded himself.

SPEAKER_01

Did how much of the song was done for Gunn to hear it when he sent you that verse?

SPEAKER_04

I probably did my parts.

SPEAKER_01

Just your parts. My parts, yeah. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_04

It was early, but uh his verse was a little longer too. Uh, but we but we had, you know, had to put everything on there, so yeah. Um then we then took a little bit. He took a couple months, like six, seven months, to send me his verse. But uh he eventually did. Yeah. And it was fire.

SPEAKER_01

I got a couple songs with Jay Electronica. The first time we worked together, I had to go to uh a meeting that Farrakhan was having.

SPEAKER_05

That's how I tried to track him down. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. You got young thug on his album too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thug was on there. How'd that song come about? How did y'all do y'all create that song?

SPEAKER_04

That was through actually JaVel McGee. He's he has like some records with him, and then I did my thing with it, produced it, all that. And then after I did it, Doug hit me and was like, yo, this is crazy. This is because he remembered what it was and then what I turned it into. And then he's like, yo, you gotta hit me, man. We gotta do more shit. And he he got locked up, you know, a couple short, well, I don't want to say shortly after that, but before we ever got anything, a chance to do anything in a studio, he had got locked up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Man, um, so uh you sound sonically like one of the leaders of the new school. Um as a yo as a young visionary, what are you thinking you're gonna do next? What are you seeing next? What are you hearing next? What textures and colors, where are you taking us? You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, um, well I'm taking guys down a different journey, but the same path. Like, uh, or different journey, but the same, we're gonna end up in the same place. You know, what I did, what I did in the past is like put different types of sounds on one record. Now I'm more so like, this is my rap record, this is my whatever record, but both hip-hop in the essence. But rap is one thing. There's there's ways to be melodic and it's still hip-hop, and whatever the case may be, and there's a journey that I'm about to go down that's risky, especially coming off of a project where everyone's giving me all this praise, to then not double down on that exact thing. One is a very me thing. Uh two, it's I'm looking at myself as I'm this is the rebirth, you know. We're starting from scratch. Like, you know, I've gotten to like venues like uh Urban Plaza and Webster Hall, but I'm starting back fresh again, like I just started and uh going to smaller venues. It's a good feeling, right? Yeah, yeah. So we're rebuilding everything, but I also need to establish at the same time this is one side of me, this is the other side. And fans can like both or pick which side they like more, and they can fight with each other, uh, not physically or anything, hopefully not, but just you know, argue with each other about which one they like.

SPEAKER_01

I gotta tell you, that's a challenge. Um, I I think it's more of a challenge for artists like me than for you. I think from from the first time people hear hearing you, even on those early mixtapes, you're a producer. So you're bringing in, you're experimenting from jump, right? And I think what I hear you saying is it's always been he's a rapper, he's a rapper, he's a rapper who can make beats. By the time you get to the simple album in 2022, it's now this shit feels like it could be any type of this music could exist in any format. Like that album feels big and um international, feels like even disco even from Southeast to Paris. Like it's it's like you're you're living life, you're talking about it on the record, right? You're like, yo, I want I want a record that could play in this lounge in Paris, though. Not just one that could play in the Southeast. Right, right. You know what I'm saying? But so in my career, I've done things like that where I've tried different sounds and ideas. I think my most experimental stuff is um the stuff I did with Idol Worship, which was really for me a pop thing. It was a pop, I wasn't rapping, I was more like singing and adding accents to it. And I tried, I had an album called uh Fuck the Money, which had more like commercial production on it. And I called it Fuck the Money because I didn't want to make my fans pay for that. I didn't want to make my fans pay for me fucking around. Experimenting. I was like, yeah, called fuck the money. That one's for free. But the the older I got, I'm glad that I experimented. I got I got songs with just about every I used to be like you. I got songs with every different type of artist. I got songs with Gucci Man, my fans mad about, you know what I'm saying? Really? Yeah, they hate it. My fans hate it. They like, why would you sell out? It doesn't even matter what the song was. The idea that I would, that me, I would do a song with someone like Gucci. And this is early Gucci, this is this before jail Gucci. One of my channels.

SPEAKER_05

So that was a little bit Gucci, that was a little bit more gully Gucci.

SPEAKER_01

So my fans was like, nah, you you're supposed to be the conscious poster child. You know what I'm saying? Um, but as I got older, I find that for me, I want to, I'm more drawn to doing what it is that I know best and doing like that certain type of hip-hop and getting into the, but I only know that because of all the experimenting I did. You understand what I'm saying? Um, and I feel like with you, the simple record is like very different from the mad, the mad lip joint, the devil smiles joint. You know what I'm saying? Like it's just like a whole different chamber.

SPEAKER_04

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, and that's you know, I've been planting the seeds, but when I say I'm like, I'm come, I'm going for it, you know? I'm going for it on these next, this, this rap one, I went for it. This next one, I'm I'm going for it, but it's all in the name of hip-hop. You know, I think people people uh confuse hip-hop with rap. You know what I'm saying? It's a rap is a part of hip-hop. It's like I had this meeting with NASA and J S.

SPEAKER_01

Rap is something you do, hip-hop is something you live.

SPEAKER_04

Another bar from the teacher. Yeah. Lit. So I'm like, I look at it like I had this conversation with um someone at JPL NASA where we were talking about, we were walking through the facility and they were like, I was like, what's that picture? Because it was like a painting almost. And they were like, oh, well, that's an image of the, I think it was the moon. Because when they sent the first camera up there to take a picture of the moon, it broke. And they had to basically look at the light and read the light and draw it based off of reading the light. And at that moment, I was like, oh, wow, science is an art. It's not a bachelor's of arts or a bachelor's of science. That doesn't make sense. Art is the overarching thing, and science is falls under it. Engineering is an art. And that that's a very complex thing. I'll simplify it. This is the most simple version of what I mean by that. Now, I'll go in a little bit about the complex version, but the simple version is in order to solve a problem, you have to draw symbols. You need to know art to draw. Yes, right, to some degree. That's that image of the moon was art, right? Now, what I mean in a complex way is uh there is an art to solving a problem. It's like this thing, this thing, if you do it this way, there's an art to engineering, social engineering, all of these things, there's an art to it. Yeah, and I think people look at it like that. So the same thing applies to hip-hop as it pertains to music. Because it's just because it's melodic doesn't mean it's not hip-hop. What are we talking about? What's that song about BC Boys? Is it called Girls? Yeah, that like that song is like they're singing, yeah. But it's hip-hop. It's like what are we talking about? Garner is hip-hop. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, is he rapping? He's rapping, but he's singing when he's rapping. It's a feeling. That's really what it is. It's all that. So that's kind of where I'm at right now. I'm like looking at everything I've ever done and realizing how much of it is hip-hop. And there's a reason why people put rap and RB together in a certain category, too. And it's not just because it's quote unquote black music. Yeah, it's deeper than that. Yeah, it's the feelings, the soul, you know? So yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, word up. Now your parents are from Sierra Leone and Ghana.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Which one is which one is which?

SPEAKER_04

My mom's from Sierra Leone, my dad's from Ghana.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so Sierra Leone and Ghana, who has the better Jolloff Rice?

SPEAKER_04

Um I have to listen, I I'm gonna go with Sierra Leone. I think people sleep on Sierra Leone, Jolloff Rice a lot because it's such a small country. Uh, we don't we don't compare culturally in terms of our our history definitely does. But in terms of our um uh or the popularity of our culture, but it's soft, it's it's kind of more natural. It's uh I like I like Sierra Leone and more than Ghanaian, but I love Ghanaian jalo. I love all of the jolof rices, man.

SPEAKER_01

The first jolloff I ever had was uh Ghanaian. Um I love Jolloff rice. As someone from whose parents is from Africa, can you tell us why this debate is so heated on it?

SPEAKER_04

I think, man, black people, we just like the beef over everything, man. We'll find anything. I don't know what it is about the joll of rice. We just be wanting the beef, man. It ain't No, it ain't even a it's not a conversation that's even worth it. It's about who is the cook. Right. Which mom or auntie or grandmother made it? That's really what it boils down to. It's not about the country, you know? But uh, yeah, that's that's my idea.

SPEAKER_01

No doubt I'm proud of Ghana right now. Um because uh, first of all, I got to go recently. Shout out to Vic Mensen and Chance the Rapper. But back by the African Union, Ghana is now stepping up to push for reparations. They step into the United Nations to rally global support for a resolution that could declare the transatlantic slave trade the gravest crime against humanity of all time. So that's what Ghana's on right now.

SPEAKER_04

So yeah, salute to Ghana. Whatever I could do to support that conversation, that's uh that's a that's real. That's real. That's real. You know, that is that is a salute to them for pushing on that because it is very true. I don't know why people try to like brush that off like it ain't nothing, you know. And uh I look at black people in America specifically, and I'm just like, man, I love I love seeing black Americans doing what they're doing, because a lot of times people say, you know, if you look at where people have come from, uh, you know, my in my eyes, it's very clear that although we are not exactly where we need to be, we deserve to be and where we want to be, the amount of proc progression based off of where we came from is a beautiful thing to really see, if you really look at it that way.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um, I think it's it could be dangerous for some people to look at it that way just because it makes it maybe by default you become content with what you have and we don't want that at all. But I always want to just say, like, man, kudos to what we are able to do, provided we don't have the best circumstances, and a lot of people don't give a fuck.

SPEAKER_01

That's true. Yeah, I like that we can have these Pan-Africanist conversations on the show.

SPEAKER_04

That's my favorite part of the show. Yeah, nah, man. Show love, man, to the reality of the situation. Like, it's uh it is beautiful, but we we we we want more, we deserve more, and we're gonna keep working for more. Shout out to Ghana, though. Shout out to Ghana, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You make pretty big records, like hits, quite frankly. Thank you. But being a hit maker and also having a broader perspective than the average songwriter, has that had an effect on your placement in the industry, you think? Does does the fact that you're a little deeper than the average person that's writing these hits uh uh take a toll on your career in any way?

SPEAKER_04

Um no. I am one of the most steady stocks in in rap music, if you wanna, if you will. It's you know, it's taking its time, but it's gonna be a good thing. Steady stock is a good thing. Steady stock is a big turn. I'm a good I'm a good bet, you know? And it and then at some point it's gonna really, really go to where it needs to. Everything that I've ever done, at some point will finally connect together. So nothing I'm doing is in vain. I think I'm I'm telling my story. I think in the process, I'm learning how to organize how I storytell. Um, in the process, I'm learning how to not rely on other people and being able to do certain things myself. And I think in due time, I continue down this path. It's all gonna connect in a way that nobody's ever seen in rap music before. And I strongly believe that. So what I how I look at things and what I'm doing, you know, they're all in the likes of people like Kendrick Lamar or Jay-Z or or Ye or um who else, like, I mean, you could we can say Q tip, we could say we could say you. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's one thing. Like, I gotta make sure I I I you know, like, you got hits. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't know if people because of the underground rap thing, especially your era, because they were really strict about that shit. Like, now you can kind of do what you want to do, right? But nah, like, niggas was coming with shit. Like, I'm just I'm just a product of what's been laid out there. And I think that my career, just like every single other person who's ever made music and been successful, is different than everybody. Um, I think that I've I've connected in really good ways. And, you know, we look at ourselves, you know how this goes. We forget about what we're actually doing because we see our goal and we ain't there yet sometimes. So we forget that. You know what I'm saying? Like for you to say I got hits, I'm like, you know what? Yeah, well, you know, if you think about it, it does have a lot of screams in some of these songs that you know what I'm saying, they're in this era on the rain when it was a hit.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so yeah, I I I think it's just more of that until it all comes to this big snowball effect, you know?

SPEAKER_01

You know what I find fascinating is how the fact that we are slightly different in generations, you're younger than me, how our lens is different. We've talked about this on the phone, and how the way that we get introduced to certain music is different. Like for me, Jay Diller and Mad Lib and MF Doom have always been a part of my musical DNA from the time that I came into and then they be quickly became my peers. And you like for me, I was up late watching Adult Swim. You know what I'm saying? And I remember that era of when Mad Lib and them was with and Doom particularly was tapping in with Adult Swim. I mean, people don't know Doom did an Adult Swim Christmas album. There's a Christmas record by Doom that you could listen to. And um explain to us how you go from being a fan of that style of hip hop and hearing it on Adult Swim to now you're able to really tap in with these artists.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because for your, you know, the devil when uh the name of the project, when the devil was. Even the devil smiles, you tapped in with Mad Lib on a lot of those beats.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and I thank you for your insight on how to kind of make some of those things happen. Uh, but going from that was just basically, you know, I got into lo-fi hip-hop through Adult Swim and things like Dilla and all these, you know, artists, madam. Man, I hate that term.

SPEAKER_01

I I have respect for the lo-fi community because the lo-fi community, people who listen to that, they support the type of hip-hop I do. You know what I'm saying? But when I hear the term, it's triggering to me.

SPEAKER_04

Why?

SPEAKER_01

Because it for me, it feels, and this is my issue, it has nothing to do with the people who listen to lo-fi, and God bless everybody who listens to lo-fi, and people who fall asleep to lo-fi lists, play while they do when they homework. Like, I know how people do, but for me, it feels like music that's based on the type of hip-hop I do, specifically high-tech and J.

SPEAKER_03

Rolls and like this.

SPEAKER_01

But you take out the woes and the pain and the angst of the rapper who's on the track, and you remove that element from it, and you just have the lo-fi beats. So it's like you get the vibe of the underground hip-hop. You catch this vibe and it's vibey. And the generation of people who listen to that, they don't even really know so much. I find they don't so know so much the artists who make it. They are listening in playlist as opposed to listening to individual artists and albums.

SPEAKER_04

I got you.

SPEAKER_01

So it's like I put on this low-fi, lo-fi playlist. And then it's a bunch of shit.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's like uh it's like it feels like a shadow of what I of what you do. But I realize that that's my own personal thing.

SPEAKER_04

So this is what I say to that. It's up to us, you, me, everybody who feels any type of way. I don't feel a way about it, but you gotta reclaim that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

That's what I'm speaking on now on this platform. No, because the beauty of it is now, think about jazz, right?

SPEAKER_01

Because I'm like, yo, that's people say loaf. I'm like, that's hip-hop.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's hip-hop.

SPEAKER_01

But it's hip-hop without all the without the hood elements, without the black elements, without the the elements that make it uncomfortable. It takes everything, take all the things that are are are comfortable by hip-hop and puts them in a playlist.

SPEAKER_04

So, yes, I agree with you there. And uh, but the the caveat to it is this you allow now a generation of people who wouldn't otherwise listen to it to now exist, right? That's right.

SPEAKER_01

Which is why I have to put respect on them before I can start.

SPEAKER_04

But see, but now there's a platform. Now you make songs, and now it's able, like you go to uh a bunch of old Dilla beats or old Dilla Records, and because of the lo-fi movement and it blowing up, now you got millions, 20 million views on this song that back in that time wouldn't have had 20 million views when that was happening.

SPEAKER_01

Yo, it's the same thing CL Smoove was saying on straighten it out by Pete Rock and CL Smoove when he was saying, listen, uh, we take these samples that y'all are complaining about you taking our essence, but we giving it an audience of people who never discover it. And now you're creating that whole generation of kids who want to dig and go back and find it. You're saying the same thing about the profile.

SPEAKER_04

So now we it's up to us to reclaim what that means. It's like, oh, yeah, y'all like that over there. Well, this is where it comes from. And then the ones that really, really love it so much, they come to that. You know what I'm saying? And now you can fit in the playlist right where it's happening. Or you're these things are aggravating the algorithm. And the important thing of subgenres that people are are forgetting is if I just search hip-hop, so much is gonna come up. But if I search lo-fi hip-hop, I have a specific thing that I'm looking for that I'm trying trying to feed emotionally, yeah, and I can go to it and do that. Uh, I think, and I'm a big fan of um Flying Lotus. Yeah. But he said something, I didn't love that he said this. He said something like, uh lo-fi hip-hop is like uh mall music or something. I don't know what he said.

SPEAKER_01

Listen, I don't I didn't hear him say that, but I I what you just you paraphrasing what he said? Yeah. I feel like I'm saying something similar, but I'm putting how I feel on me rather than putting it on the artist who created because everything you just said is right and exact about how that opens up the lane to have more people tap into what I do. But I understand how you could feel like that, it's a feeling, and not all, not every feeling is right. A matter of fact, a lot of feelings is wrong. You know what I'm saying? But it's a it's a feeling that you feel like, oh man, you feel like they missing some. And I can see how someone like Flynn Lotus, who is a bridge between what I do and the lo-fi generation, because really he opened the lane for that with the type of BT he's doing.

SPEAKER_04

Right. But see, here's what I think. The moment you decide I'm gonna make art, but I enjoy the commerce, especially the successful part of the commerce aspect of the art, you have to understand that you now give it to the world to make what they want to make of it.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah, it belongs to the world once you put it out.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, and that's absolutely true. And it's like, bro, you know, when I make music, people be like, yo, how are you so vulnerable on music? Because when I make it, I don't expect to put it out. I make it because I like it. That's what I do. And then when I'm deciding to put it out, I've made the conscious um um effort and understand and have the conscious understanding that when I put this out, it's for people to do what they will with it. So look, think about like this lo-fi hip hop, right? Y'all niggas was just making shit. Boom, boom. All right, let me sell a couple records that I die. For it to blow up into this huge thing, you got the this is pretty much the best results of let's see what happens. It's huge, and it's by your turn, own terms, because maybe some of the playlist music is specifically engineered, just like pop music would be to get attention, right? But within that, I'll be real, there is a lot of the essence that's still completely there, bro. Like it's so, it's right there. It's like, it's like there enough that when you make it now, you don't have to do get the Taylor Swift record deal and have millions of dollars pumped into you to be it to fit into an algorithm and have some kind of success. They've done it for you. Make the music. Make the music. That's what we do. That's what so my opinion is I agree with you, but it's provided a plat provided a platform that if the platform didn't exist, we'd be complaining that the platform don't exist. We'll find a reason to be mad at the shit. Yeah, I think it's very complaining.

SPEAKER_01

It's way sexier to complain about what you don't like than to talk about what you do like. It's way sexier. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_04

Nah, but niggas can eat if we, you know what I'm saying? I think that's the biggest thing. It's like, bro, we do this because we love it, but we also have to pay our bills, man. We can't be homeless. There's a lot of people on Skip Row that had a dream and it didn't work. You know what I'm saying? I do. So to the platform, man, fuck it, man. It's kids that could listen to you to the shit now. It don't gotta be because they dad played it or anything now. I know about a lot of shit in that world is either adult swim, because that was my lo-fi hip-hop on YouTube when I was growing up, right? Or my stepdad, luckily, he was, you know, he's from uh uh Africa, but he came in, he was DJing. So he'll play all yours type of shit. He would love like Tribe Call Quest, he loved your music, he loved like uh Dilla, things like that. So luckily I got that. Most African kids' dads wasn't on that though.

SPEAKER_01

So I'm gonna connect this, I'm gonna attempt this segue. Yeah. Cameron Diaz had a show on MTV around 2006 called Trippin', which she would take uh friends of hers and people and celebrities and artists to impoverished places and marginalized places, and we would like build wells or bring food and stuff like that. So I went on a trip with her um to Tanzania, Tanzania, as they say, and a Sarageti plane, you know, where Simba, Lion King, all that shit happened. I I was there for real. And you could go on YouTube and watch this, and I got in a hot air balloon and we tracked lions and we built wells, and I went with Justin Timberlake and Jimmy Fallon. And one of the things if you look at it, they asked me, what would you have been doing right now if you weren't here in the Serengeti? And I say, I'd have been watching Adult Swim. So now years later, I'm here with you talking about Adult Swim. And that you watching Adult Swim led you to have a record with K Trinata and Black Thought that you perform in on Jimmy Fallon. Yeah. Tell me about performing on Jimmy Fallon and how you hooked up that record with K Trinata and Black Thought.

SPEAKER_04

Um, so I mean, starts with the record. I just, I heard the beat and I did my thing on it, and I'm like, you know, Tariq uh thought was supposed to do something on another song anyway. And uh I ended up having to drop it. He wasn't able to get the verse to me in time. He still talked about it, you know, when when we when we met. Uh met up. But um that shit kind of led to me doing this. He's like, I got you, baby boy. Sent me the joint, send me the verse over. I'm like, yeah, you went crazy on it. And then uh the record comes out, and I'm realizing people really like it. So I was like, you know, the idea of performing this on Fallon probably would make sense, especially because he's he's on it. So I reached out, I actually asked him what's the best way to go about it. And he's like, send it to me. I'll send it to Julie, uh, who works there, and see what she says. And then she liked it, and then they played it for Jimmy, and Jimmy loved it. Jimmy loves hip-hop. Yeah. So he's like, yo, Jimmy loves the record when y'all free. You and Kay, he put me and Kay in a group chat, and then Kay was like, this state. And I was like, yeah, that makes sense for me too. And then that's how we ended up doing that. And um, and the performance that everybody saw was actually our first time doing it that literal way. We rehearsed, we didn't really even rehearse. Like, we kind of we had really camera blocking, yeah, and we tried to do the best rehearsal we could have done.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_04

And uh what people saw was just the raw moment. We just had to do it. This was what it was, you know. I'm like down to the last minute. I'm like, yo, because you know, Thought was wearing like a green beanie, and I was like, man, can we switch it to a white Koofy? Because the prison stuff, it makes sense. You got the beer. I know niggas like that look like you when I was locked up, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04

And uh he was like, uh, and they we figured that out, you know what I'm saying? It was all the little details were all happening.

SPEAKER_01

That was powerful. Imagery was powerful, you know. Black thought, that's my birthday twin. That's one of my favorite people. He's a very spiritual person, he's a very deep person, but when he's on the tonight show, he's at work. So you don't get to see often his personality unless he's rolling out a project. Maybe he'll come and sit on the couch, maybe he'll do an extra verse, go into commercial where he says some deep shit. But you having him like that on that record allow people to see, you know, our MC, America's top MC, the world's top MC, but in his essence, even though he was at work and it was beautiful to see.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, man. Shout out to him. He was like the big, the how he was rapping, he was like the the literal version of the the Muslim guy, the brother, Muslim brother that's like trying to tell me, like, yo, this is how the streets is, you know, you in this situation now, careful who you befriend. They will switch up in the end. You know what I mean? Like, it was just felt so organic to my reality, you know? Man, so shout out to him, shout out to K Trinata on the beatbox.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, shout out Ed. You know what I mean? You sampled me on that record. Which one? K Trinata, Timeless. That's you, that's me. I never knew that was you, bro. I need my runs. I didn't know that was you. That's me. That's from my record with Kaitronada and Anderson Pack. And I didn't hear it when you did it on the tonight show, but when I went to listen to the album, it's crazy. I'm gonna tell you what happened. I'm playing it from, I'm listening to the album from my phone, and I keep starting it over because I'm like, why does my a cappella keep playing? I'm trying to listen to IDK. I keep starting it over. Like, why does it keep playing me saying Caitronada timeless? And like three times, and I'm like, oh, the record starts with me.

SPEAKER_05

So it's awful, sir. That's hard. I didn't know that. I was joking, Mikey's not on me.

SPEAKER_01

That's a gift. I don't need I don't need the payment. I'm just happy to, I'm happy to have heard my voice on something that small.

SPEAKER_04

I never knew that was you, because that's his tag. He don't use it often. That's his only tag. So he uses that too. Every now and then you you get lucky and you get the Cachinata classic time. Yeah, that's his record. So then I started hitting it. I so I took the NPC, I put it in the NPC, and then I just hit it with the uh-uh. It's time. So I turned it into a part of the beat. Yeah, and go.

SPEAKER_01

It's really just a tag. So really, I need to be featured on the song.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, but it was classic.

SPEAKER_05

I would have known that.

SPEAKER_04

That would have been fire.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, man. Oh, wow. Wow, now I know though. Yeah, man, we we really uh aligned on some divine design. Because we always the way that you came into my life and the way that we keep connecting is like ever since you came into people's party the first time, we've been aligned and been connected. And I appreciate you, bro.

SPEAKER_04

I appreciate you too, man. Thank you for coming on the show, man. Of course, of course. No doubt.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, appreciate you getting it.