Lemme Ask You This
From the minds of Talib Kweli and Tef Poe comes Lemme Ask You This, a podcast that lives at the intersection of art and activism.
Lemme Ask You This
Episode 11 - One Rap Battle After Another Featuring Nicole Duncan-Smith
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Episode 11 - One Rap Battle After Another ft Nicole Duncan-Smith
For episode 11 of Lemme Ask You This with Talib Kweli and Tef Poe, friend of the show Nicole Duncan-Smith returns. The show starts with Nicole talking about the need for more conscious content. Talib ask Nicole about how she became involved in battle rap culture. Nicole recounts witnessing the battle between Keith Murray and Fredro Starr and then describes being at all female rap battle events. Talib asks Nicole if battle rap culture is more misogynistic than mainstream hiphop culture and Tef talks about how female battle rappers get to respond. Tef and Talib talk about how challenging battle rap culture actually is. Nicole talks about watching rappers battle to get on in the industry. Talib asks if today's battle rappers understand the history of battle rap and then a discussion is had about the history of the Bridge Wars. Nicole shows love to Roxanne Shante. Tef Poe explains how the Bridge Wars seem to set a precedent for rap beefs outside of NYC. Nicole talks about her work with the Hip Hop Museum. Tef asks Nicole about her favorite female battle rappers which leads to a discussion about how fans of music should explore outside of the mainstream more often. Nicole and Tef explain Jae Millz recent run to Talib. Nicole and Talib talk about how they met. Talib talks about the first time he met Russell Simmons and the conversation turns to Affion Crockett's A Hip Hop Story movie. Tef talks about how Jae Millz using Ron Browz beats is adding to his recent resurgence. Talib asks about the importance of Black Media and Nicole breaks down the history of Black journalism. Tef asks what the current version of Unsigned Hype is. Talib talks about the challenges of being a legacy artist in an online ecosystem. Nicole explains how the algorithm is the new Unsigned Hype and how she focused on shining light on up and coming artists. Tef and Nicole discuss how using inventive ways and not relying on standard practices to get your music out there is necessary. Talib asks Nicole about her work with Health, Hope and HipHop.
Shot and Edited By Chino Chase. Additional Filming By Aaron Ross Media Co.
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What's up, y'all? It's Talib Kwali, the BKMC, the Little Lebowski Urban Achiever. And this is let me ask you this. And let me ask you this. Who is sitting right here on the couch with me?
SPEAKER_01It's your boy, the Vanglorious Tef Poe, in the building, man, in the house, in the studio with my guy, my brother, Talib Kwali, man.
SPEAKER_06Vanglorious, that's a good word. We should bring that back into the lexicon in general.
SPEAKER_01Hey man, so a lot of people out there think I'm slow or something because I spell the word wrong. But I did that because I want to.
SPEAKER_06Hey man, that is a white supremacist construct. All right. I'm all spelling this shit.
SPEAKER_01That's right. So I dropped the I on purpose. You know what I'm saying? Okay, Vanglorious. Yeah. All right. I wanted something that sounded like notorious, but I didn't want to get sued. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_06Van Glorious. Rest in peace to PXO. This is protected by the red, the black, and the green with the key. Now, we have a guest today.
SPEAKER_01Yes, man. Uh uh cultural historian. Yes. Uh a person that was there for a lot of the things that we be running our mouths about sometimes as hip-hop fans and academics, and a huge battle rap fan, but you know more about the woman than me, so you know.
SPEAKER_06Oh, yeah. Well, this person uh is a good friend of mine. We've known each other for a long time. We've been in the trenches in this hip-hop cultural battlefield for a long time. Uh, she is a journalist. She's written for all the things. There used to be this thing called magazines, and uh they had pages in them, and you could get them at newsstands back in the day. She used to write for all these magazines, rap pages, Vibe Magazine, The Source, uh Atlanta Blackstar.com and Oprahdaly.com and all hip hop.com and the Grio, who she used to work for, and hip bt.com, all these.coms she wrote for as well. But she started out working with magazines. She's worked with Steve Stout, Londell McMillan. She is uh the director of corporate communications for the ultimate rap league. Is that still true, Nikki?
SPEAKER_05It is still true.
SPEAKER_06Okay, word up. And uh the uh the she wrote a children's book, I Am Hip Hop, which we have to talk about. Uh shit, the Haymakers Presents Battle Con, the rap conventions, the the advisory board for the hip hop museum. We're gonna talk about hip hop and health and hope and foundations with the wonderful, the beautiful, the talented Nicole Duncan Smith.
SPEAKER_05You make me sound so important. Oh, you're very important.
SPEAKER_01I mean, hey, it's not like we're lying, you know. I'm loving that sweatshirt.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I like that too.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. I'm um I'm a kunter. Yeah, not a Tovey.
SPEAKER_01Okay. That's why it's scratched out.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Scratch it out. Bitch, where were you when I was walking?
SPEAKER_01Now I run the world.
SPEAKER_05What's up, gentlemen?
SPEAKER_01We chillin', man. Um, what's your vibration today?
SPEAKER_05High.
SPEAKER_01Real high.
SPEAKER_05I'm on it, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Happy, joyful. Um, what's going on in the world of hip hop that you think is important right now?
SPEAKER_05I think this kind of conversation is important. Um I went to this concert a couple of weeks ago and Chuck D performed. Right.
SPEAKER_01Wow, okay.
SPEAKER_05And so I was listening to the music of public enemy and juxtaposing it to the life that I'm living right now. And then I'm looking at the young people that are around me. And I'm around a lot of young people. I like to keep young people around me to keep me. I'm 52, so I like to keep young people around me to keep me young. And I was like, where's their public enemy? So something like this is important so that they can get something to stimulate their mind and maybe let them think something different. Shout out to the young and you know, NBA young boys and all of them, but there is another, there's another thought process, and that's what's missing. So I'm excited about this because this adds something to it.
SPEAKER_01Well, you on this journey with us, you know. So we appreciate you for dugging with us and bringing your expertise and everything else that you bring to the game to the table.
SPEAKER_06No doubt. Well, thank you for coming on the show, definitely, Nikki. Um, I'm glad to have a conversation with you. We have a lot of private conversations, but I'm glad to take some of this public. Um, I didn't mention how much you love battle rap. I mentioned a little bit when I was introducing you, like your accolades in the battle rap community, but you were someone who, you know, and I this is something that I didn't know about you for a long time. Like, by the time you got all up in the battle rap spaces, I I didn't know. You know what I'm saying? So how did you get so involved in battle rap and why are you so involved in it?
SPEAKER_05This new era of battle rap, right? I remember when I was in seminary, right? So I was in seminary, I guess 2011, 2012 or so.
SPEAKER_06And um break that down for people who are like, she was what? And what's going on?
SPEAKER_05So I am a reverend, I'm an ordained reverend, I have a master's of divinity. Um, I've always been um spiritually based. I consider myself a pluralist. I'm a Christian, but I consider myself a pluralist because I think God is bigger than religion. So the the the language that God has revealed himself to me or herself to me is through Christianity. But I don't, you know, I don't dismiss God through anything else, whether it's Yoruba, whether it's you God is a cultural thing, you know, an understanding. And so when I went to seminary, I went to seminary because I wanted to write better. I wanted to write children's books, I went to write stuff like Chronicles of Narnia for black kids now, right? So Chronicles of Narnia is actually a way to introduce people to Christianity, right? The whole thing about the lion, lion of Judah, and his the lion goes back to his father over there past the sea or whatever. So it's all of these concepts of how you understand God. So I was like, oh, I want to be smart, but I want to say stuff that is accurate. I don't want to just rely on the Bible, right? So I wouldn't go to a lawyer that didn't go to law school, and I wouldn't go to a doctor that didn't go to medical school. So I was like, I can't be a spiritual or religious thought leader if I don't go to seminary and really unpack why you believe what you believe. And so while I was there, I'm still loving MCN, um, my husband was like, yo, look at this cat called the saga. He's a Christian battle rapper. So I was like, oh. And I'm watching it. So, you know, we all I grew up with, I I worked at Trackmasters years ago with this cat named Punch and Words, and they was the punch, shout out to Punchline.
SPEAKER_06That's yeah, they were battle rap. What I tell you too, Punch is everywhere.
SPEAKER_01I was telling Kwali that I felt like Punch is a legend that us non-New Yorkers don't get to see a lot.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, he's like Forrest Gump in a lot of ways. He's everywhere. So they were battle rappers. I remember they got excited about Eminem getting on. So I always was in love with battle rap. And so when he sent me the um saga stuff, it was like a whole like rabbit hole. I'm just going in why, and then I'm seeing people I knew, like Beasley used to work at Sony Music with him.
SPEAKER_06Shout out to Beasley. So me and him went to the Million Man March together. He told me that. Yeah, man. I was crazy. We didn't plan that. I just seen him on the journey, and I was like, I knew him from the hip-hop spaces. So me and him went on that journey together.
SPEAKER_05He had a long time before Smack or whatever. Well, well before that. But he was talking about Forte, and he brought that. And then he brought up, you know, rest in peace, John Forte. He was like, people don't. That's right, rest in peace. He was like, people don't realize that I'm actually plugged in with everybody. I was with William Man March with Kwali. I was like, that makes sense. Yeah, man. That makes sense very much You know what?
SPEAKER_06People would have never known that if we didn't do this podcast. Exactly. Because where else are we gonna talk about something like that?
SPEAKER_05You know, shout out to Beasley.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, shout out to B Wild.
SPEAKER_05And so all right, so my first battle rap event was Keith Murray versus Okay, come on, come on with it, come on with it. From um Onyx. Um Fredro.
SPEAKER_06Fredro. I seen that on the internet.
SPEAKER_05Let me I was there the funniest things ever What what year was this? 16, maybe 15, 16.
SPEAKER_01And these dudes was like were they the the icons that we know them to be?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, no, this was this was after the success. The Fredro, uh Keith Murray thing was at long after they had hit records. Wow. So that's what made it even more interesting to me.
SPEAKER_05That's what, you know, it was interesting to me until your man, Keith Murray, who's a wild boy, but he's a great guy, but a wild boy.
SPEAKER_06That's an accurate description of Keith.
SPEAKER_05A Jamaican hat with the Rastafari locks and start and Frederick was so mad because he'd been getting trained by Lodelux and he was all serious. So that was, and then was all kinds of funny things happening, like the stage was falling. I was like, oh, I love this because this reminded me of hip hop in the 90s, where they was just trying to get off, right? He's just trying to where the bars, because it was other rappers too. So it was the bars mattered more than anything else. And so that right there got me like then. I saw a Beasley, he was like, What you doing here? I was like, What you doing? He said, I own this. I said, bam. And so, and then he kept trying to get me to come out to events, and I was like, I'm good. I I see it on, I'll see it on YouTube. I'm okay.
SPEAKER_01You just said a lot though. That whole I do this with him a lot because he has the habit of doing this. Like a casual story to him is something that's very mind-blowing to other people, and you just kind of just did that just now. So you were at a battle. Let's break this down because you know nowadays folks need backtrack style conversation when it comes to facts. So you were your you said your first battle rap event, Keith Murray. And am I correct when I say Fredro Star from Onyx? Wow.
SPEAKER_05My first this era battle rap.
SPEAKER_01Okay. And this is where you reconnected with Beasley.
SPEAKER_05And Big T, Big T FL. And I was I was right there. He fell was dark, and it was something he tripped over.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_05And so I was like, oh my God, because you know he's a sight of the. He's a legend.
SPEAKER_01A super legend.
SPEAKER_05Respect on that man's name, but he fell. And I was like, let me get him up before someone see him.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_05But I can't lift him up. I'm four foot nine, 130 pounds. I just couldn't do it. So I went and ran and got somebody, we got him up. I just didn't want it to be somebody taking pictures of it. So automatically I went into communications, publicist type of thing. Like we got a protect the rapper, um, which is a big thing for me, protect the artist. Um and then after that, Beasley was like, Nikki, give me your number. Let's reconnect. And I was also at the same time, I was like starting to be cool with Debo. And I felt safer at the Queen of the Ring events. So Beezy was like, why would you go to theirs and not mine? And I'm your friend.
SPEAKER_01What made you feel safer at the Queen of the Ring events?
SPEAKER_05They were women, but guess what? They fought a lot. So maybe I was wrong.
SPEAKER_01Like, I I wasn't at That's part of the reason I asked that, because I'm a big Queen of the Ring fan. And especially in the early conception of Queen of the Ring, they were coming in there with legit feuds.
SPEAKER_05I thought the girls, because they're girls, you know, go to their thing.
SPEAKER_06Clearly, you've never been to a lesbian nightclub.
SPEAKER_05I have. And guess what? And I think that I'm okay with saying this bad bunny. Queen of the Ring is like a lesbian nightclub. It's a lot of things going on. Shout out to that.
SPEAKER_01I've never been to a live event, but I've watched plenty of.
SPEAKER_05Oh, it's my I I actually got close to my play sisters. I consider my sister now, um, C3, one of the best to ever do it for sure for female rappers.
SPEAKER_01Very respectable.
SPEAKER_05Not battle rappers, rappers, you know, I think she's a meaning. Absolutely. And I saw her at one of the Queen of Ring vents, and she had girls chasing her around. I was like, who are you? Come here, little girl. You out here wilding out with whatever gift you got.
SPEAKER_06So Is um, I got a question. Is it is, you know, the world, I imagine, for for women is is a misogynistic experience just in general. And then hip-hop, for a lot of reasons that I don't I don't want to unpack right now, is is extremely misogynistic. But battle rap is is like it's taking, it's extracting like the root of what the raw, raw part of hip-hop is and putting that on display. So do you feel like the world of battle rap in your experience has been more misogynistic than the world of hip-hop in general, or it's like the same?
SPEAKER_05I would say less.
unknownLess.
SPEAKER_05And why I would say less is because um sure, it's misogynists, like what they say is awful, whatever. But the guys typically will be like, I don't want to, I'm not gonna, they treat everybody like the little sister. So misogyny as a system, of course, is there, right? But they're not like I felt it worst in mainstream hip hop. This is everybody's trying to kind of come together. We're trying to, it's an underground, it's the underground culture. So the same way a Thai Phoenix might feel really comfortable around regular people, it's you know, it's how to tie Phoenix. You know, Miss You know the underground Miss Jace, all of them, right? So it's that environment where we just, and when your sister gets rhyme, and then there's always a female in the crew, you know. So you got um Dot Mob and they had um Shana Ashley, right? Um you have Miss Hustle, who is the first lady of URL. It's always it it is some of that, but you don't feel the misogyny the way that I felt it in um traditional um the rap industry, right?
SPEAKER_06That's real interesting.
SPEAKER_05I can I honestly uh now you now if you ask somebody like Miss Fit, who has a brand built on feminism, right? She's gonna say something different. Okay, right? Because that's a part of her her thing, right? And she sees it. She's also a young woman, she's in her 30s, whatever, she sees things a little differently, right? I see it as they actually help each other. The guys be like, yo, get on this. You know, I I see things a little a little different.
SPEAKER_01So I would think that what I kind of perceive to be a perceivable difference is in the mainstream, if you want to be a misogynist, where is there gonna be a response to you? In battle rap, if you're a misogynist, you might have to stand in front of Shorty six months down the road. And the whole world is gonna get to determine if you, you know, actually the man or not. You know what I'm saying? Like you could be that if you want to be, but you better smoke the boobs off of every female MC you face.
SPEAKER_05So I think that this is that you're going to something. The respectability politics are out the w out the you know, the window in battle rap. So you can say Shuny's a whore. Look at her out there having sex with everybody. And Shuny can get up there and be like, and you got a little penis, so what? You know what I'm saying? Like the there is, because there is guys that out women for being um human beings who are sexual people, right? Or she's promiscuous, or he's she's this or she's that. And the girls just flip it on them, right? And the difference is that this is an intellectual sport. And that's it evens everything out. You know?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and it's agreed to. It's like it's like roast battle or just any type of sport. Whereas from the outside looking in, if you didn't invest in that, if you didn't come to the arena for that, if you're not participating in that, you might be a f and you might be offended by some of it, and you have the right to be offended by by some of it, but you have to respect people's um space and autonomy to participate in the type of sport they want to participate to. And if it if it's consenting adults and they all consent to that left that type of competition, you gotta respect it.
SPEAKER_05It's the funniest thing to see girls tear guys up. And they s the guys, because guy a lot of times guys, because of you know, just the embedded um socialization that you know they better, right? They they rap better, they think better. You know, we've seen that blown out the window because there's some sisters out there that are just crazy with their pens, right? And or this is the biggest thing. Oh, she didn't really write that, somebody wrote it for her, which is a carryover from, you know, um regular hip-hop. Um, not regular hip-hop, but traditional commercial hip-hop. And so I love to see someone just unpack and or more creative, because you don't have to be the best lyrical miracle person, you just have to be the best that day or have a crowd on your side.
SPEAKER_01Or the best strategy going in. Like I don't I wouldn't consider myself any form of of what we in this culture today would define as a professional battle rapper, but part of my motif as an MC is battle rap, you know, and I have been influenced by battle rap, and I have been in rap battles. So I was on 106 in Park, undefeated. And talk to talk. I a lot of people at the time, you know, keep it 100, I'm an honest person, I'm not a historical revisionist. A lot of people outside of my city was like, yeah, we ain't really that impressed. Like, it's cool, you know what I'm saying? He winning, but what's the big hooblah? And for me, for one, I had been so removed from battling that it was just another thing to do to try to get up out of St. Louis. And so I had to go into it knowing, like, A, I can't lose because I haven't been battling, and B, I can't bump into no real battle rapper. Like, I could do this so long as I got people getting up off the couch thinking that they could come here and be on TV and rap. But if I bump into one of them niggas that's been uh uh in one of them damn arenas like that, uh it's gonna be a little bit of a challenge.
SPEAKER_06The DVDs, yeah. Like you know what I mean? For me, it's like I've been challenged in little situations in my life where people be like, oh, he uh he would never like people say, you know, some artists like me, not just me, not just personalize it, but an artist like me. This is why it's important. Like it was important when when Keith Murray and Fredro did that. Because no one had done that. Regardless of how you felt about the battle, it was important that they stepped in that ring. Method Man, the way he stepped in the ring, certain artists come out. Joe Button. Joe Joe Button, yeah. It wet what regardless of how they perform, it's it's a bold step to step in that ring. Because um, for me, I know for a fact that I have the technical skill and ability to be able to succeed and and dominate in a space like that if it's a big if, if I were to take the time to do that. But there's so much from what I'm observing, it's so much time and effort. Like I gotta stop everything I'm doing and just do that. I feel like that's the issue with battle rap is that it takes so much time and focus to be that level for nine minutes. What you mean? For nine, yeah.
SPEAKER_05That you can never use again.
SPEAKER_06That you can never use again.
SPEAKER_01But in the course of that nine minutes, so much is going on.
SPEAKER_05But just think about like what it can be a career in the nine minutes. No, absolutely. But just think about what Quali's saying. All that energy to put together nine minutes, you can't perform it again. You can't sell it again.
SPEAKER_01I know.
SPEAKER_05You get the one check to that point. Battle rappers today, if you're one of them, can get paid per battle anywhere between 25,000 to 100,000. I know a contract. I actually moved posted it. I worked on the contract. $200,000 for the year for two battles. So that's 18 minutes. There are rappers assigned to labels that don't see that. So it what Smack did, Smack and Beasley and Chico did, shout out to them because they did this, they created an industry where these people can be professional battle rappers back in the day. You were a battle rapper to get on, right? Yeah. I remember. You be ciphering and then you battling somebody and you might get seen. I remember being in Chris Lighty's office just chilling and them bringing up people, and they are, you know, who's my guy is better than your guy, or outside of Justin's or whatever. Like you battle to get seen.
SPEAKER_01That's the urban legend behind my song.
SPEAKER_06Violator. Yeah, man. Shout out to my song. Sean. Shout out to Chris Lighty. Rest and peace to the king. Well, since we speak in history, right? Um, do y'all feel like you know, the battle rappers of today know and understand the lineage, like, you know, like if you look at Karis One and Shan, right? People look at Kendrick and Drake because Universal was involved. It's global. Like my cab driver when I was into Heaty was like, have you heard they not like us? You know what I'm saying? Like, it's global. You know what I'm saying? Like the stakes. Got gear I wear for every day. Listen, it was um, it's all the way up with these guys. Like, it's it's global phenomenon. Yeah, but I be feeling like the KRS Shan battle, and I know this might I look, I'm gonna date myself. This might make me sound like an old ass man. You know what I'm saying? But I feel like that battle was more serious. But as I'm also I'm also I'm also a dude who's like, or more impactful, even. I'm I'm also a dude who's like Godfather two can't be the best because Godfather one exists.
SPEAKER_01Let me ask you this and and I should know this. So where in the timeline of uh MC Shann and KRS in my business?
SPEAKER_05So this is two different things, right?
SPEAKER_01So the question I'm asking is in the timeline of them battling, when did uh Scott LaRocque get killed?
SPEAKER_05I have a letter at the museum that Scott LaRocque wrote to both of them to tell them to stop going back on.
SPEAKER_00So it was happening.
SPEAKER_05It's actually a type letter. Because really, it was offensive when um MC Shann, you know what I'm saying, put out his record and made it seem like hip-hop started in Queen.
SPEAKER_06He didn't say that, but it's like he was talking about his from his view, how hip-hop started for him, and they was like, that's not how hip-hop started. That's what it seemed like to me.
SPEAKER_05This the song was just talking. He was like started in the park. Started out in the park. We used to do it, like, but it just was for him in that section. I don't I didn't hear it as he thought hip-hop started in a park. Hip-hop for him. We used to hip-hop started out, started out in the park. We used to but you you can't even do like this with Chris. Keris one's gonna hear it. And he was borderline, homeless at the time. Borderline. Like, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_06Like homeless.
SPEAKER_05Homeless. He was like, nah.
SPEAKER_06Scott LaRocque was this was the social worker. The social worker that Chris was in the shelter. Yeah. Chris had Keras one and Willie D and all these guys was living in the shelter. Yeah. And Scott LaRocque was this was the social worker that they used to have to go to see. And he was like, yo, and they was they was dominating lyrically in the shelter. They were killing all the other houseless people in the shelter with the rhymes. And Scott LaRock was like, Y'all nice. I'm a DJ. I'm DJ Scott LaRock. And he put them on.
SPEAKER_05So so to your question, there was this energy going back when the records come out, right? By the time the records come out, the CN was signed to the Juice Crew. The Juice Crew dominated radio. So it kind of had to like be for show a little bit because you couldn't get on the radio if it wasn't for Mr. Magic, right? And so, and then you know, Kane Kane always says, My best friend is Keriswan. They helped me move to whatever. So it was the tension, but a lot of it they saw at a certain point that um we can get money with this. And so this battle. From the beef. The beef, yeah, the tension started to pick up.
SPEAKER_01Do you think it was money or um this is a real question? So don't think I'm just asking it for the sake of satire. Was it money or was it the equivalency of what we would consider clout, or was it even a they did a tour with Sprite? That was for money.
SPEAKER_05That was for money. Like a lot of this was they were trying to sell restaurants. Wasn't that after the fact?
SPEAKER_01That was years later. It was years later, but they the whole concept.
SPEAKER_06KRS was hungry. He was homeless. And he was showing up at Latin quarters as a homeless dude, and they used to be dissing him. Like, look at this bummy little dude, and but he's nice on the mic. So he's he's developing a chip on his shoulder, and he's trying to play his songs for Mr. Magic, who's down with the juice crew. And according to KRS, the legend has it that Mr. Magic kind of brushed him off and gave Nicole's shoulder.
SPEAKER_01So Mr. Magic initially brushed off KRS1?
SPEAKER_06Yes. That's what that's what the story is.
SPEAKER_05That's what Flat Tide told me. Rest in peace, flat side.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and so KRS1 is like, okay, he you know, he starts dissing, yeah. That's where he's going at the crew. I'm going at the juice crew. And Mr. Magic brushed me off, and your dude was talking about hip-hop starting the Queens, and nah, I'm not I'm not with that. And he he beast it out.
SPEAKER_05And so the crazy thing about this, when you think about the juice crew, is that Shan wasn't really the battle rapper. He's a fly kid, right? Think Jay-Z for Queens at the time, right? He was that dude. Shantae was the battle rapper. Shantae was so ill at like 11 and 12 that she was going around to different projects outside of Queens and winning money. And she was, at one point, they put signs up that said the little girl with the braces don't let her in. Like my daughter was in the movie, The Rock Saint Chante. So we had to hold it.
SPEAKER_06Good movie, by the way.
SPEAKER_05Thank you.
SPEAKER_01So the reason I'm asking you these questions is because I feel like in the Midwest, and shout out my homie Julet, we just had a conversation about this. A lot of us equate, and I don't know if if New York hip hop is, think like this, but we equate, especially a lot of the OGs. We we have equ we look at it from a historical type of timeline type of thing, and we look at different violent incidents in hip-hop that have occurred, right? And we can make the case that so many of these incidents occurred from niggas doing their own version of KRS one and shin.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01I think I mean everybody can't weather that type of storm. Everybody can't weather that type of storm.
SPEAKER_05But that was the but so you you there was more than just the Keras one and Kane when you talk about disreference, right? So you have the Kumo D and Of course, more records came after that. No, no, no, no. Around it like early Treasures 3.
SPEAKER_01I mean I get it.
SPEAKER_05No, I'm just saying, like that was the thing. You could get on UTFO and Roxanne Shantae. I mean the Roxanne Revenge, like it was a thing. That was a thing. A part of getting on radio is creating commotion.
SPEAKER_06To the Break of Dawn, LL went at Modi, Ice T and Hammer in one record.
SPEAKER_05Like it just that's what just what you did. Like, but I don't think because I I see where you're going. It wasn't that. It wasn't that. At the end of the day, it wasn't as hot-headed as you guys might have seen it because I think your context is kind of looking at the Tupac and Biggie thing, right?
SPEAKER_01Well, not even that.
SPEAKER_05Because if I take Tupac and completely out of that, right?
SPEAKER_01And I talk to like authentic OG St. Louis hip hop hits, they would probably say more times than not that a certain style of street dudes having an issue with each other, they would look at that incident as like the genesis of what so many other incidents that look similar to that come from. Like that was the rule book on how to handle it or what it was gonna look like.
SPEAKER_05So I don't know if that's applicable here. You think this hip hop was a tool for people to get a little bit of paper. By the time you start getting signed to a label, is the the the beef is driving you some to get some money, right? In my mind, the the one that looked serious might have been was it just ice and Tim Dog? You know, you never heard that. I don't know that. Oh, that one was serious.
SPEAKER_01I know a lot about Tim Dog. I keep I don't know if we can talk about it in the podcast, but y'all know there was a whole Dateline NBC uh special about the possibility of him faking his death.
SPEAKER_06I didn't know that. I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_01Look it up.
SPEAKER_05So, but I mean, but so so so the Shantae thing, go back to Shantae. So there used to be thing, a thing called the New Music, New Music Seminar?
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And they would have DJs and MCs. She beat as a 14-year-old girl, 14, 15-year-old girl, who quan from Sassasonic. Um who else did she beat? She beat Busy B. But but everybody said she beat Busy B, but um Curtis Blow voted her very, very, very low. Red alert was one of the um was one of the judges and he validated the story. He said Curtis Blow voted her very low because he said, This is the beginning of hip hop. We can't have a little girl be the best rapper out here. Right? So it really was that we're trying to make a an impact. I I got a a flyer quality from 1977 where Mellie Mel won won a battle rap contest. An authentic flyer.
SPEAKER_06That's is that in the museum? It's in the museum. Tell them more about the hip hop museum.
SPEAKER_05So the hip hop museum, we've been working on this for 16 years. I've been associated with the museum. It'll be five years this May. Um, I just accepted a position as the special uh special assistant to the CEO, which very similar to my job with um O Boy. So um Oh Boy? Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Can you talk about that?
SPEAKER_05We can. Russell Simmons, that's my guy. So um Russell Simmons, I was his special assistant. So it's always kind of like the Girl Friday, I guess. I don't know. And so it opens in December 2026. It is um created and founded by people who were really in the Bronx in 1973, actually before. We have this thing every Thursday at our annex building, Culture Lab, where we have the theodores and the mean mean jeans and all these old DJs from back in the day who were in the park coming to and spinning and then having sessions about what it was like. I met his name is Trixie, the very first breakdancer. And that sounds crazy, right? But there was a first one, right?
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_05Or or even Coke La Rock. So there's a guy named Coke La Rock.
SPEAKER_06That's the first MC, they say, right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and let me tell you, you want to know how he did it? Yeah, he started. I don't know him personally about it. He was a part of Cool Herc's crew. He he thought Kirk wasn't that cool, not as cool as he was, because he was a G-boy. Kirk was very Jamaican, very go to work, you know, straight line, but he's in the streets, so he would always have money. So he knew that the way to stop the gang violence, because the spec black spades and the gangs was crazy in New York, he would start shouting people out on the mic. And he started rhyming, and he would get paid to say people's names all night. And he just started getting creative and slick with it, kind of like toasting, kind of whatever. And that became the genesis of rapping. And then he said one day he was looking, looking in the audience, he see the skinny guy just like on everything he does. But the next year, 74 or 75, he's at another party um uh like near where the you know World Trade Center used to be. And it was Mellie Mel, and Mellie Mel had perfected rapping. And he said once Melly Mel started doing it, he was like, Oh, I done lost it. Like I'm I'm never gonna be able to do what he does. I'm entertaining just the group here. He's creating storylines. And so Mellie Mel can Mellie Mel and Cass can say that they actually um and and that that crew, you know, there's a bunch of them, but they that generation kind of created it from where Cochle Rock had it. So the battling thing and having those diss songs, that was a part of it. You see the force MCs who force MDs? The force MCs were first to force M Cs Force MCs, that's right.
SPEAKER_06That's right. And they were battling so they to change the force MDs to to level up. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Because what they used to sing on the ferries, right, and get money that way, like you know, but they would be going to be.
SPEAKER_06That's them in New in New Jack City, right?
SPEAKER_05No, I don't know.
SPEAKER_06And singing around the the the garbage can. That is them. Yeah. That is the well, I thought it was true, but it might have been them.
SPEAKER_01So who's on your um women MC? I try not to use the word female because I think people in battle rap be running crazy with the female, female, female. So even if it's the right adjective to use, I try not to just keep from sounding crazy. Uh when it comes to women that are MCs um in the battle rap culture, who are your go-tos? I'm a big Bonnie Godiva fan.
SPEAKER_05Bonnie's dope.
SPEAKER_01I like 40 bars.
SPEAKER_0540's dope.
SPEAKER_01Uh, but who are some of yours?
SPEAKER_05C3. I said her earlier. I love her. Um Miss Hustle. Jazz the rapper. I I like the Bardashians. I I like the Bardashians anyway.
SPEAKER_01So I like the Bardashians a lot.
SPEAKER_05So that's shout out to official um KCJ, um and and Jazz the Rapper. I mean, I think the 40 bars.
SPEAKER_01Official just got into that scuffle.
SPEAKER_05She did get into a scuffle.
SPEAKER_01How you feel about that?
SPEAKER_05Um, I think that um it gets sensitive. Shout out to Coffee Brown, right? Um, sometimes Official has just lost her mother. So the same it's the same thing that happened with Mook and Briz. You can't go up to somebody just lost their mother and say something. But at the same time, official kept spreading the narrative that Coffee's um baby's father wasn't really dead, or it was so that was very, you know, emotional. So I don't want to talk about it because I will punch somebody in the face if they say something about my mother. It's personal on both sides. It's personal on both sides. I also think that Coffee Brown is an amazing artist. She brings her West Coast flag to everything.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um, but again, my top ones is C3, Miss Hustle, Jazz Rapper, um and these are just people I really enjoy. I enjoy watching Farah and Shooney, you know. Farah's funeral when they together as a tag team. Crazy, crazy. Um 40 is amazing when she's not when she's prepared. She knows that she she struggles, she gets in her head and she forgets her stuff. Um Vixen is amazing. Um and E Hart.
SPEAKER_01Legend.
SPEAKER_05A legend.
SPEAKER_06And so See, I'm not tapped in with battle rap at all. It sounds like y'all speaking Jupiterian to me. I don't know what the fuck is going on.
SPEAKER_01Nah. And that's on me. You know what I'm saying? Like the thing is for me, when commercial hip-hop slows down, they go in tangent because sometimes battle rap is slow sometimes. And sometimes the the music biz is accelerated, and sometimes, you know, sometimes they work together. But as a real hip-hop head, I think sometimes the older we get, we be missing like on the ingenuitive part of the culture. So people will spend all night watching the Grammys, but complain about hip-hop being dead or where's the raps or where's the disc.
SPEAKER_06That's why I'm I feel like that in general, like in music in general. I I completely agree with you. I'm definitely not tapped in with battle rap. Yeah. Um, like I should be. But I one thing I always say is that people, when people complain, oh, there's nothing to listen to. And everything's same on the radio is like, bro, there's billions of songs out there. This music, this whole thing, you could spend a year listening to a genre that you never heard before, yeah, and just expanding your horizons, and you know, like just beyond battle rap, battle rap is part of it, though.
SPEAKER_05Like that's which is regular rap. Like, there's so many raps. Yeah, but in regular rap, yeah.
SPEAKER_06You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_05So, so Jay Mills.
SPEAKER_01I was gonna that's my next question because it was like, yo, Jay Mills is B Magic cooking right now. She asked me off, she asked me off camera, did I know B Magic? B Magic is my man's. It's like that's my dog. I'm I'm like, I be with B Magic. We're talking about doing an album together. So listen, I need y'all to do this for me.
SPEAKER_06I need y'all to do this for me, all right? Because I know Jay Mills, me and him got records together. Shout out to Jay Mills, but I've been hearing these records, the back and forths, and and goods, DNA, and I have no idea what the fucking problem is. So for battle rap for dummies, break down for me what's going on.
SPEAKER_01I'll let her do it and then I'll cue in from another angle.
SPEAKER_05Sure, sure, sure, sure. Goods, it starts with goods and DNA and Jay Mills. Jay Mills has returned to battle rap, you know, and you know, he he's a smack.
SPEAKER_06Glove Millsy.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so you gotta think about it. He's a smack DVD guy, right? And the smack DVD era is very different than the ultimate rap league. Shout out to them, right? Very different. And usually those guys are um in this particular style of freestyling, a cappella, um, not freestyling, but a cappella MCing, um, are legends, the pioneers, right? And so he, but everybody wanna return because it's some bread over here now, right? And so he comes back and he's had a couple of kind of rough ones, and he's figuring it out, right? And I think the goods, because we know goods, shout out to Virgo Gang. Goods is so slick, goods is so smart, so smooth. Um, he also was really nice, like as an MC, right? Yeah, and so he just was like nice.
SPEAKER_06All of them is nice. All of them is nice, right? All of them is nice.
SPEAKER_05So DNA and Goods is this no man. He's like, What? And so DNA puts out a disc. I don't know who came first, the application.
SPEAKER_06I saw the DNA, I heard the DNA record.
SPEAKER_05When he was at the Chunk King joint, like nah, he was eating food. Yeah, yeah. He was sitting, it was not chunking, um, the Brooklyn Chop House.
SPEAKER_06Is that where he was at? Look, yeah, it looked like some some nigga shit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was rolling with the J. Mills conquest. And then I said, all this shit getting regional. I gotta bunker down and be with the homies. He started bombing on the crib, dog. So this is the thing. He had to bomb on the crib, dog.
SPEAKER_05So this is what's brilliant about um Jay Mills is that he's forcing them to come out and get on the beat and rap because they all got music. He's actually helping them, he's helping everybody because he's making us listen to the songs, and the rumor is that battle rappers can't make music, which is a dead rumor. I know some great great, great songs from battle rappers.
SPEAKER_01I feel like that's been dead for a while, but people act like it's true.
SPEAKER_05So, but that's the thing. The consensus, you know, perception is reality, right? And so he's making a so when he started getting on my man uh uh verb, right? That's your man. He's been cool. Wait, wait, me, I'm cool with Averb. He's a Duncan. It's a Chad Duncan, right? He first he said he was my cousin, then he told somebody he was my husband, which is not true. Are you related to this nigga? I'm not related to them, but he would love to love for people to think that, right? Um, and so I don't got no issues with Verb. He's just, you know, he's still over there. I'm I'm over here because he's quick, he's quick with the whatever. And so he's talking crazy to Jay Mills, and Jay Mills just every other, I'm making a joint. And he's like, you got X amount of days to respond. And this is part of the conversation. Some of them don't write as fast. So Jay Mills is winning because he knows how to not just write a great song. He he got, you know, rhyme with him. He's making joints. And the most competitive one is this, and then Jack Boy got in and he killed both Jack Boy and and he did it with the fast, like the swift swiftness. Now he's with B Magic. B Magic is very competitive.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I see. I know Verb and Magic. I got songs with Verb, but Magic is my man's man's. So I'm bonking. I'm magic is like the like one of us. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's a little bit more distance between Verb and the St. Louis MC community. But magic is a little bit more distance. With a verb and who? The St. Louis MC community. But Verb, I mean, but then that ain't no slight. He just don't be around us like that.
SPEAKER_06Oh, it's coming out.
SPEAKER_01But you know, magic is my man's. That's all I'm saying. You know what I mean? And Magic is great at making music. This is something people don't know. Like, he's a phenomenal battle rapper. Like, I think Alchemist even had him voted as like Battle Rapper of the Year one time. But he he is uh equally as talented at making music to me, if not better. You know what I mean? A lot of his songs are phenomenal.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean, I think that um he got him because that that's a really good song. They his disorder.
SPEAKER_01But also, this nigga can we point out something about the whole J. Mills situation? You got the nigga that made Ether making your beats, fam. Like, it ain't like this nigga made the beat that took out Hove, cuz of course, of course, like we at the crib rapping against the nigga that's gonna be.
SPEAKER_06I don't know. We should talk about how we how how don't how did we meet? I don't know.
SPEAKER_05I remember so the Schaumberg wanted to collect. Damn. Yeah, the Schomburg wanted to collect hip-hop stuff, right? And they didn't want to pay nobody, but they wanted to, so they hit they hit up Russell Simmons.
SPEAKER_06Um you were working for him at the time.
SPEAKER_05I was working for Russell Simmons at the time. And um, your old manager at the time, he and I went to college together. Corey? Corey.
SPEAKER_06Okay.
SPEAKER_05Corey Smith.
SPEAKER_06So he went to college with Corey.
SPEAKER_05Uh-huh. And so many ashtray. I invited Corey.
SPEAKER_06Thank you, sir. Thank you.
SPEAKER_05I invited Corey to this this this thing. He brought you his artist.
SPEAKER_06And we linked. Okay. So we became friends, and then Russell Simmons was doing the hip-hop summits. Yes, the hip hop summits, yes.
SPEAKER_01The hip-hop summits.
SPEAKER_06The hip hop summits all over the country.
SPEAKER_01I was one of them little niggas in the audience. Okay.
SPEAKER_06So Russell Simmons, she was working for Russell Simmons, and Russell Simmons wanted me to be involved in somehow in the hip hop summit. So Nikki comes and tells me this, and she's like, Alright, we Russell Simmons will have a meeting with you. And I'm like, oh shit, that's Russell Simmons. So I get to the office and I'm sitting there waiting to meet Russell Simmons, and I'm sitting there with Jinx the Juvie. You know who Jinx to Juvey is? Jinx DeJuvey was signed to Rawcus. No, he was signed to Coo G Rap. Coo G Rap was signed to Rawcus. So Coogie Rap was uh shopping Jinx the Juvie around.
SPEAKER_05He was gonna get signed to Def Jam.
SPEAKER_06That he was in a meeting that we didn't know that at the time, but he had just got shot a couple weeks ago. So he's recovering from being shot. And I knew him. I knew him because I knew G-Rap. G-Rap was on my album.
SPEAKER_01And um Jinx the Juvie had just got shot.
SPEAKER_06He had just got shot. He was young too. He was like 15. Yeah. And Russell or somebody poked their head out the office, said they seen me and Jinx the Juvie and they looked and they was like, come in here. And I go in there and she's in the office, and Russell Simmons is in the office. And Russell Simmons starts talking to me and Jinx the Juvie and dropping bars about the industry. And he's saying she. He's saying shit too.
SPEAKER_02No, this is the best story ever. He's saying shit. And Russell Simmons start talking to me and Jigs the Jubi. Right. Dropping bars. Drop a bar.
SPEAKER_06He was. Yo, he's saying, he's saying shit like, yo, you can't be out here getting shot. You know what I'm saying? Like, you gotta do it.
SPEAKER_05You want to save the world.
SPEAKER_06Like, you do street life alone. That street life ain't gonna go nowhere. You're not you, you know, you're not gonna get nowhere. And he's looking at me like, right, right. Like, I could I'm confused because I'm like, what? Why am I in this meeting? And he's telling Jinx to Juvie, and this is where it went, it got crazy. He tells Jinx to Juvie, you can't be like these street dudes, because that street life is not gonna, it's not gonna last. You need to be more like positive, conscious rappers, but not like them weird niggas, not like them weirdo niggas like like outcast, common, most deaf niggas like this. And I'm like, wait, what?
SPEAKER_00Damn.
SPEAKER_06And I'm just taking it in, like, oh shit. This is how he really feels. He calling people in from the office, like this guy used to work for me. And he, but he's he's giving like good advice, but he said that shit about my people, and that's what made me realize he maybe don't know who I am in the meeting. Yeah, like because why would you say that in front of me?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's crazy.
SPEAKER_06And I was like, Um, are we gonna talk about the hip hop summit? He's like, What you talking about? I'm like, I'm here to talk about the hip hop summit. I says, That's Tyler Kwali. That's what she said. She said, That's Tyler Kwali. He said, You not jinx the juvey's manager. No, and he he kept missing up your day.
SPEAKER_05He was like, And he's like, Nicole, you set me up. I didn't know. That's what he said.
SPEAKER_06He said you set me up. I never didn't set me up.
SPEAKER_05I told you he was coming, and you called them all in. I thought it was oh my god.
SPEAKER_06He said he was, yeah, man, he was. Oh, so what did you do? He was like, I'm so sorry. He was apologetic. And every time I seen Russell Simmons after that, every single time he's like, hey, Talib Kwali, hey, he's turning to whoever's next to him. This is Tyler Kwali. Have you heard his he's amazing? He does conscious hip-hop. You should check him out. Every time I seen him after that. What did you do though? I don't remember.
SPEAKER_05On on an album.
SPEAKER_06Oh, I had I okay, I did two things. I did on no, that's okay. That was that was I was about to say Michael Rapport, who's lost his fucking mind. But that I had him imitating the raucous dudes. But I had Afion Crockett doing Russell Simmons. I I recreated that meeting on one of my projects. And I had A Fion playing Russell. I told Afion about it, and he did the shit. I don't even know which album that's on. I got too many albums. Let me tell you, Avion's movie, a hip hop story, where he plays Russell Simmons. Yeah, it's amazing.
SPEAKER_05It's amazing. I think Freeway for a minute was like a little upset with me because I called Freeway, like, yo, it's great. But I didn't realize that they was kind of like dissing Freeway a little bit, like in it in the movie. Not really, it was prepared. It's comedy.
SPEAKER_06Comedy homage.
SPEAKER_05So, but um, but back to battle rap, right? I think that what Jay Mills is doing um is actually the most exciting thing in battle rap right now. It's creating traditional MC.
SPEAKER_01I think it's cheating a little bit.
SPEAKER_05How's it cheating?
SPEAKER_01You got the guy that made the beat. It ain't cheating. Nas used the battle cheat.
SPEAKER_06Is that cheating? Is that is that cheating? To know Ron Browse. Is that a cheat code? That's crazy.
SPEAKER_01It's the man that made Ether.
SPEAKER_06Get your game up. He's stuck right there on Ether. Get your game up. You need to go find your guy. He's like, he made Ether.
SPEAKER_05Find Ether. Get your money right and go get Ether. Go get a hit. Go get Derek Angeletti.
SPEAKER_01Go get the producer who took out Jay Z.
SPEAKER_05No, that's no.
SPEAKER_01Nas take take take.
SPEAKER_05Let's talk. Let's talk. The Nas Ether. What he said.
SPEAKER_01I'm saying none of this because I I think it's a bit more. I ain't touching it. I like Ron Brown's projects.
SPEAKER_05Harlem though?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, that's Harlem Connect.
SPEAKER_05So that's the thing. Like you can't Harlem does what Harlem does. So I went to see the Pimper Clean. The Cast Pimpertins Easy to Block Captain Battle. And Loaded Lux had a viewing party in Harlem. And it was Loaded Lux was there. Mook Murder Mook was there. Uh Uncasa was there. Mickey Fax was there. Jay Mills was there. Dave East was there. And Aesot Rocky was there. And when I tell you, it was like a par it was like a old like a party. Like it was so lit. And at one point, when the battles weren't going on, they all just grabbed their mics and started rapping. I love battle rap because it creates the energy where people start rapping. And so so often and rap music in particular, people are getting away with the bullshit. They just are, you know, singing on tracks. They're not talking about, you know, whatever. I I give me some bars, you know.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I do. Thank you for talking with us in depth about battle rap. I don't want to just pigeonhole you as someone who just knows about battle rap. You also are journalists. Yeah. Um, you have worked with mainstream things, you've done independent stuff, you've done regular journalism, you've done uh activist journalism. And um I want you to talk to us a little bit about the importance of black media and independent journalism.
SPEAKER_01And to tell in on that behind him, what has changed? Pause.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01Pause. That's a super pause. Don't even use that. Just go ahead. I'm out of here.
SPEAKER_06I'll ask my question after that. Go ahead, Greg. You know, can finish with your question.
SPEAKER_01No, my question is what has changed in the scale of black media from then to now? Like you kind of had a golden era of hip hop media specifically, which was led by black journalists, being an alternative voice, and you know, we don't really have as much of that now, and we're trying to bring it back in different avenues. But what has changed from then to now, in your opinion, as a expertise?
SPEAKER_05The internet and and and blogging and social media, because now everybody's an expert, and you don't have to go to a specific person to get a review or to, you know, and go online. And everybody also believes that they have and everybody everyone does have an opinion. It might not be an informed opinion, it might not be um one that we should respect or not.
SPEAKER_06Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they all stand.
SPEAKER_05It also cheapened the value of not just magazines that are still around, but you know, like I I I now write for Chuck D's new magazines.
SPEAKER_06Shout out to Chuck D. Shout out to Chuck D. Rap Radar.
SPEAKER_05Not Rap Radar, um Rap Central Station.
SPEAKER_06Right. The hip hop radio. What's the hap hip hop radio station? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Rap Central. Rap Central. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And so I write for them now. So um, so that's what happened, right? Um Chuck, Chuck and um, I would say Chuck and Grouchy Greg, well, all hip hop, all hip-hop, were some of the pioneers out there um successfully doing what we did in the magazines online, right? And so now it's just a saturated space. It's cause I'm so old now. Like I like Clubhouse during COVID really reminded me that yo, you are not We're not gonna let you sit here and call yourself old because you you don't look aging yourself.
SPEAKER_01But black don't know, she do be on Clubhouse.
SPEAKER_05No, I was on no, I'm saying during COVID, I was on Clubhouse. You know, when it first started. I'm just playing. It's okay.
SPEAKER_01You don't look old enough to be talking about you old.
SPEAKER_05I am.
SPEAKER_01That's something my grandmama would say. You don't look old enough to be talking about you old.
SPEAKER_05Juices and berries, juices and berries. And so the kids would be like, My auntie. And I was like, oh, there was like names I had never heard. They was like, I read your stuff. And I was like, oh God. And so, but that's good too, because I'm respected as an older person. There are people that I look up to, right? In that space. Um, the Karen Amayo's, the Rob Marriott's, the Michael Gonzalez's, the you know, the OGs.
SPEAKER_06All OGs look these names up if you don't know these names.
SPEAKER_05Harry Allen, Rest in Peace to Greg Tate. Like they were peaching a lesson.
SPEAKER_06We put Greg Tate on the end of the Black Star album, No Fear of Time. We put his voice on the end of that album.
SPEAKER_05Brilliant, brilliant, man. And so that's the change. I think that black media has always been important. And I um disagree that it's gone away. I think that it looks different, it feels different, and the onus is on us to support it, right? But when I look at the crisis magazine when it came out um in the early 1900s, we weren't supporting it like that. They were struggling consistently to put it out. And so even Jet and Ebony, they were the only ones out there, but they were struggling to stay afloat, right? They weren't getting the aver advertising dollars because even back then it really was about the advertising dollars. Essence and rest in peace, Russell Goines, he was the person who put the money up for Essence, um, and also Black Enterprise. Like, you know, we need money. We've always the golden errors is because there wasn't nothing else out there.
SPEAKER_01So with that being said, for both of y'all, I would I I would have a question. Let me ask you this what is the equivalency to like Unsign Hype in the Source these days? Like, I I remember that used to be like a column where you could really see who was on the way, and and usually that meant they was really on the way. I was unsigned hype in the source in the mid 2000s.
SPEAKER_06I was I was the vibe version of Unsigned Hype. Shout out to Larry Black Spot.
SPEAKER_05Black Spot, shout out to Black Spot. Yeah, man.
SPEAKER_06He put me in the he saw me perform at Megar Ever's College with Baba Toonjay Olatunji. And he put me in that whatever the vibe unsigned thing was.
SPEAKER_01Yep. So like things like that, right? Where this means this is a signaler to you.
SPEAKER_05So just so you know, the source was founded by a white boy, Dave. Dave Mays, Dave May. And then and also the person, Maddie Cave.
SPEAKER_01Who did Unsigned High?
SPEAKER_05But Maddie C, who did Unsigned Hype, White Boy, you know, shout out to him too. You know. So it's always been, while it's a cultural space, hip hop is a cultural space, there's always been, you know, white folk in here um supporting black artists and black thought leaders. Yeah. So, you know, say deal with that how you want. Deal with it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm with you on that. So But what are some cultural signals?
SPEAKER_05What I mean is like I don't think there is another place like that.
SPEAKER_06And I don't think we should Is it net is it is it needed in this space? That's what I'm saying. I don't think the way people receive music and the content is so different that that, you know, for me as a like for me, Tef, as a as an artist that benefited from a different era, where more physical error, CDs and whatnot. I'm still in Sam Goody and all this back in the day. Yeah, I find that the consumer is way less excited to support me than they are to support a brand new artist. And this is I could be wrong about this, but this is how it feels. Yeah. How it feels is the consumer looks at something I'm doing as more as a part of the establishment. This is something that has come out through a label system. I've seen this guy on MTV or BET. You know what I'm saying? Like I this guy has had CDs, he's had a chance, he's had a shot. I'm not excited about that, as excited about listening to this to this person's music on the internet or on YouTube as I am about discovering a new artist and being part of a community that's that's discovering something.
SPEAKER_05And that's what makes you kind of dope, what you and and um Yassine, what you guys do so um it makes it so amazing, is that y'all position yourselves like new artists and y'all take chances to do things like artists?
SPEAKER_06I I attempt to I don't know if I attempt to position myself as a new artist, but I attempt to position myself in proximity to whatever that is.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, yeah. I suppose. Yeah. So so right now, algorithms is the new unsigned hype. So if I like a certain type of artist, I do get that. I'm gonna get my Spotify list is gonna say.
SPEAKER_01Well, I do get that, but what I'm asking is even a question kind of like outside of the comf the confines of the system for the sake of the artist, right? Like if I'm an artist like I'll name one like uh Sir Eddie C, a super underground guy that I know that is really clawing through the the noise, trying to get heard, seen, you need certain signalers still to let you know that you're on your way.
SPEAKER_05You need a hashtag. You need to so you need to post a lot, right? So so the way that I understand.
SPEAKER_01Well, what let me see what I'm let me ask, let me finish what I'm saying. Sure, sure, sure, sure. So, okay, so small things let you know that you kind of are gaining traction as artists, right? So it's like, okay, it used to be freshman cover of the double XL, then we learned that was kind of cap. It used to be this, it used to be that, where you could be at home knowing, like, okay, the media is meeting me and my artistry in an effective space to let me know that I'm doing something right.
SPEAKER_05So, so I we have, I don't believe in unlearning. You can't unlearn, it's always there, right? But we have to rethink about how exposure is, right? Magazines are no longer not lit no more, right?
SPEAKER_04Ever.
SPEAKER_05Though I am writing for some magazines right now. Um when you go viral, or when you're in the algorithm.
SPEAKER_01That's the new That is the thing. But so much of that is paid for.
SPEAKER_05So what? Then get your money. It used to be paid for it, it's been paid for it. Yeah, yeah. Like that's just what it is. So you when you when you have to the guy I work with, his name is Um Nufset. Very, very I call him the Teddy Pendergrass of this new era of because he's a dark skinned guy, he's like dark skin type of Drake guy. He raps about grabbing girls by the neck and doing the things or whatever, young guy. Actually from my same high school, the high school. Um he just kept doing it and dropping the same thing in different scenarios, right? The drop mic, the do this, to do that. LL reposted him. He got like 80,000 followers now. Then, you know, he got a call from another big person, right? And so your grind, and he also was signed to the Bird Gang 2 with um Jim Jones. That's actually how I met him through the Jim Jones stuff as a press person going to interview new artists, right? And so his grind got him discovered. And so it still gotta work. And I think sometimes artists don't believe in the work, they don't really understand how hard, how long, like the work work that goes into it, right? They don't understand how people used to take their actual records and go places with it. And the equivalent now is making sure you're on every playlist, and if you gotta put some extra money on there, you do it. Your TikTok thing, you get your friends to do make up a dance or like this order 20 versus one. So they were doing that for a minute, they were doing a 20 versus one quality. You should do one. Oh my god, it's the funniest thing ever. So when and it's various sexes or whatever, you get the 20 girls, and the guy gets to pick which one he goes, but the new artists sometimes they have the girls doing other groups.
SPEAKER_01I'm into all of that, but I think there's a way forward without it.
SPEAKER_05Those are the way no, no, you can't do it without it.
SPEAKER_01I'm here without it.
SPEAKER_05You got other things though.
SPEAKER_01You had um I'm here without even considering it.
SPEAKER_05You had BET, you're rapping there, you have Quali as a friend because your activism work.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but I'm saying there's gotta be signalers for people who don't want to go say, hey, let me do pop the balloon to get to get famous, right?
SPEAKER_05This is the thing. The signal you gotta work. So whatever works for your brain, you gotta work.
SPEAKER_01No, I do agree.
SPEAKER_05That's my point.
SPEAKER_06And there are, and I and and I I also agree with Jeff. There are many different ways to do it. The algorithm, learning that and participating that in a way that's beneficial to you is one way to do it. There's people who ignore that and just just do little pop-ups and just just just bring an audience to them just by the the nature of how they're doing it. There's all types of things.
SPEAKER_05They align themselves, but but they there is the work. My point is there's the work, yeah, and that there you have to figure it out and not rely on what it used to do in the 90s and early 2000s. That's just that's not that's not it. So I'm giving you examples of how people get on my radar as somebody, you know, who up until I stopped writing for all hip hop, I just stopped I'm kind of right for them now, but uh I stopped being a a staffer there. The get on my radar for me, I loved there was a young guy, 350 Heme, um out of Florida. Um he assigned to Motown Um Gangbanger. After my interview with him, I was like, yo, you gotta stop. He literally got killed like two months later. I'm the only person with a video interview with him, right? And sure, like Chuck could go run after the Kuali interviews, right? I I'm like, nah, give me the kids, right?
SPEAKER_06Hey, well I'm taking shots over here.
SPEAKER_05No, no, you're a great no the legend. Chuck will go for the legends, and I'll be like, give me, give me the ones that he don't want. And so, but they they work their behinds off to get into those spaces. And so, whatever that tool is for them to move.
SPEAKER_01And you just said something important. I still feel like all hip hop is one of them spots that's kind of like what I'm trying to walk walk down into. It's like you get on all hip hop as an artist sitting at the crib trying to make some records, you can feel like, all right, I'm shooting some effective arrows in the right direction.
SPEAKER_05But even the not known artists that are on all hip-hop, they didn't been at it for one, two, three, four, five, ten years already. Not ten years, but you know what I mean. Like, it's very few people can that has Pop Smoke story. Pop Smoke went to a video shoot and said, I could do that. And the next year he was the star that he was. That doesn't happen all the time. And that young man was a very, very special human being. All he needed somebody is to look at him.
SPEAKER_06Shout out to Brooklyn.
SPEAKER_05Shout out to Brooklyn. So it's hard for artists to break through now, but it's only hard when you it's hard because people don't do the work. DNA, kind of going back to the battle rap stuff, him and Rain Um 910 made not to be in their pockets, but almost $250,000 in a year off of one project independently putting out. What they did is they said, you you with his battle rap fan base, y'all buy the record for ten dollars, cash at me ten dollars, and I will send it to you. So he cut out the publishing, cut, you know what I'm saying, all the other things, the middleman, and they they kept that money. They sold the para. I mean, I believe in that uh the thousand law, um, where if you get a thousand fans to buy a hundred dollars worth of stuff all year, you can live good, right? I mean, and then imagine if you got 5,000 dedicated fans that will pay a $25 shirt, the $25 uh uh album CD, whatever, or download whatever it is, um, a ticket, the $50 ticket. Like, so you just have to be creative and hustle. And I think there's so many are it's lazy, it's a lot of laziness. It is a lot of lazy artists. I'm popping and I'm cute. There are a lot of lazy. Uh you know, I think it's laziness. Because if you grind hard enough, the universe is attracted to energy. And so it's people that you be like, how they make it? They put the energy out and it came to them. Not to be like, but I'm a preacher, so that's that's what it is. The energy rewards are other energy.
SPEAKER_01I got a homeboy that does something like that called Cash for Dope. I got an album with this dude called named Indiana Rome. Um, he lives in Atlanta now, but he's like a Midwest rap legend. But he uh started this series where you cash app him the money, and then he sends you the album directly.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05You need a fan base to do that, right? A consistent fan base to do that.
SPEAKER_01He got apparel and everything that you just named.
SPEAKER_05A hundred thousand followers. And it might be a thousand of them that will pay. Because a lot of times people just watch it's it's a false indicator to see these people following you, right?
SPEAKER_06Um Nikki, it's been a pleasure to have you on this with us. Um, before you get out of here, I want you to tell us about the health, hope, and hip hop work you've been doing. I feel like that's very important work.
SPEAKER_05Yes, thank you. Um Health Hope and Hip Hop is a foundation um founded by my man Oya Gilbert, who was um in the 80s and 90s a hip hop artist out of Delaware, right? Um, he has multiple myeloma, and he decided to start this foundation. Multiple myeloma is the cancer that took the life of Guru from Gangstar, and it's also the cancer that took the life of Leonard Hubbard from The Roots and so many other people, right? And so um he had started his foundation, you know, um a year ago, two years ago, right? And about a year into it, um, Grouchy Greg from All Hip Hop caught me up and was like, Hey, don't you have multiple myeloma? I do. I've been living with multiple myeloma for three years, and that actually I'm 248 days past my bone marrow transplant. Um, and shout out to Kwali, because right before I had my transplant, he took Me out, you know, he he did some special things and um just to make sure that I was good. So thank you. That mattered a lot. Um, and so when the guy comes to me, he's like, Oh, we need to get talent for our gala. Now it's a gala in Willemborough, so you know, uh Wilmington, someplace in Delaware is Wilmington. Um, I'm from Philly. And so um they was like, who no a lot of people are not gonna go there, you know, for a little bit of money. So they said they had a nice budget. So we were going around, and I said, you know what? Let me ask Slick Rick if he will do it. And I talked to Slick Rick's people um because they believed in the cause and they also knew that this was something I was um surviving in, right? Thriving in. And so um he came up before we raised money. Freeway was there as a guest, jumps on the mic. Young Guru is actually one of the um board members. And our goal with this work is to go around the country. The money we raise is to go around the country to teach people of color who love hip hop culture to just go and get your blood tested. A simple blood test can save your life. Unfortunately, Guru was one of those brothers that never went to the hospital until it was too late. So, young brothers, specifically brothers, girls will go to the hospital all the time. Brothers need to go. And so we're doing a stoop series in um in Brooklyn all summer. Shout out to the planet of Brooklyn. I consider myself a Brookadelphian, you know, a term came up with first. Um then um we're doing this DJing series where we're getting DJs to go on social media to spend to raise money that way. Um and we're doing something called Take It Personal. And Take It Personal is a song from Gangstar. And we're doing panels at festivals where um we'll have a doctor, an advocate, an artist, whomever, to talk about the importance of just going to the doctors. So simple, but it will save your life, you know. And luckily, my work with the hip hop museum, I'm able to kind of pair it where I can get some of these um legends, because a lot of these artists, you know, have their own health story. So we're expanding it past just this blood cancer thing, right? We're looking at people heart conditions, you know. Um, my my man, Master Ace, has MS. So he's gonna talk about that, right? And so we want to save lives. I I I really got the and I'm the I'm chief communications officer for the organization, for the foundation now. I I really got passionate when um Scoop passed.
SPEAKER_06Batman Scoop passed.
SPEAKER_05Batman Scoop was somebody scoop. Yeah, he was um somebody that would call me and encourage me when I first um was diagnosed. He was like, You're a warrior, you got this, da-da-da. And so he was like, What you eating? You eating festivals? And I don't know what his health story was, but it it broke my heart, you know, how he transitioned because it was health-related. And so sometimes we're good with giving it and maybe not applying it to our lives. So my goal is anybody who loves hip-hop to get them really down with their health program. And it's not crazy. Dougie Fresh got an amazing um health organization, also, got the hip hop doctor, all this stuff. We can live longer, and so that's what it is. Thank you, Kwa. Thank you, Tay.
SPEAKER_01Oh, thank you for sharing your testimony, your story, and speaking truth to power. Absolutely, and representing this culture that we all love and have been able to feed our families off of, and just being in the trenches of this thing and being a true soldier. So, yeah, we love you and we appreciate you.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I love you, Nikki, and I appreciate you. And we're here to live, and I'm glad that I'm living on this planet at the same time you are.
SPEAKER_05Oh, quali.
SPEAKER_00Small time in the small city on the point.