Lemme Ask You This
From the minds of Talib Kweli and Tef Poe comes Lemme Ask You This, a podcast that lives at the intersection of art and activism.
Lemme Ask You This
Episode 13 - Aspirational Marketing Featuring Coltrane Curtis
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On episode 13 of Lemme Ask You This with Talib Kweli and Tef Poe, the guest is Coltrane Curtis from Team Epiphany. The conversation starts with Talib asking Coltrane about his recent international trip and how America is viewed overseas in the MAGA era. Coltrane talks about the challenges of explaining fascism to his children. Coltrane talks about how partying in NYC led to the formation of his marketing company, Team Epiphany. Talib asks Coltrane about lessons he learned from his father. Coltrane talks about how celebrity is engineered and explains how his team came up with the term "influencer." Tef asks Coltrane about niche marketing and the conversation turns to the cultural currency of Future's Dirty Sprite Ballet. Talib asks about focus groups and Coltrane talks about how his team created a way to use data to measure cultural currency. Talib shares his experience with working on the Getting Up video game and thanks Coltrane for the work they did together with Marc Eckō. Tef brings up how popular G Unit gear was and Coltrane breaks down how when people stole those clothes it made the brand cool. The conversation turns towards Coltrane's time at Ralph Lauren and the legacy of the Lo Lifes. Talib asks why rappers didn't wear their own brands. Coltrane tells stories about his dad and explains the need for having hard skills. Coltrane explains why Team Ephipany hires writers and the importance of the book Positioning. Coltrane thanks his family for putting him in the right positions. Tef breaks down the Pooh Shiesty/Gucci Mane situation. Talib asks Coltrane about his college years in Atlanta and about the importance of HBCUs. Coltrane talks about how COVID impacted his business. Tef asks Coltrane about the challenges of being a marketing person with morals. Talib asks Coltrane about his time as a host on MTV, which leads to a conversation about the challenges of being seen at a Kanye West show. Talib brings up the Jay Z GQ interview, which leads to a discussion about the tactical nature of magazines and the importance of reading.
Shot and Edited By Chino Chase. Additional Filming By Aaron Ross Media Co.
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So, yeah, me and you just got back from Tokyo. Was people asking you about politics over there?
SPEAKER_01Um, I mean, not necessarily politics, but just more about positioning around what our government system looks like. I guess that's politics. You know what I'm saying? I don't even know if you call this shit politics. This is something new, something different. But, you know, it was interesting to just they were just more asking, like, how do you survive through it? You know? And I think, you know, it's at this point, it's really hard to be ignorant, you know. It's like everywhere you go, you see it, you feel it, you know. Like what they say, they want to start the draft back, right?
SPEAKER_06I hadn't heard that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're gonna start the draft back in the end of 25. Yeah, and so it's like that that really hit us like on the way back. Because, you know, my boys are what? What uh he's 14, so four years, we gotta think about that, right? Like, and so, you know, so it's pretty heavy. But yeah, specific to the question of people just really asking, like, yo, like what is it like? Like, how are you moving around? Like, what does it feel? And it's like, you know, we live in New York, right? Like, so you feel a little bit protected, a little bit oasis, but when you travel through the rest of the country, it feels like, oh, whoa, it's a little tight, you know?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I was saying to Tef who y'all just met just now, huh?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, Teff is from St. Louis. Um we met in Ferguson during the Ferguson Uprising. Uh he's an MC uh revolutionary activist. He's traveled all over the world like me. But I was saying to him how in New York and really in the coast, we can be in these bubbles sometimes because you have a whole life without running into someone who or having to deal with someone who uh staunchly disagrees with you in politics.
SPEAKER_01Oh I mean, it's it's weird. It's like so our office at the company, right? Like we've always had to stay near like transportation hubs, right? So our office is on Wall Street, right? Just because people can get there from George, from upstate, from around, and and what that really means is I see a lot of tourists and I see a lot of people that aren't really native New Yorkers. And it's kind of wild when I walk, like I literally have to walk past, you know, the stock exchange, like from my parking spot, past the park to my office, and it's like you see the red hats, and it's kind of like it's kind of wild, like when you see it, you know what I mean? And it's like, you know, you take a deep breath.
SPEAKER_07You know that that's tourist off top, though. Oh, 100%.
SPEAKER_01You know what I'm saying? Like they at least bridging tunnel, like bridging tunnel. You know what I'm saying? You know, like it, but it's it's you know, but when you travel through the country and you really feel it, you know, um, you know, you're kind of like, all right, I'm gonna make this a day trip. I'm not even getting a telly, I'm coming back. I'm I'm leaving on the on the 5 a.m. getting back on the red eye. Like, I'm not trying to hang out and see what it is.
SPEAKER_07The hard part for people of color is that I even get caught up in when I'm, you know, I'm very vocal about all this type of stuff. And when I speak on it, I get it.
SPEAKER_00But you're very vocal with an understatement.
SPEAKER_07Right. So I get caught up in saying, you know, we must have all hands on deck. Now is not the time to be a coward. Now is not the time for neutrality. We must step up and resist fascism. But sometimes when you say that, you're neglecting or being dismissive of the fact that this is not a new thing. This is not a new iteration of fascism. This happened because of the conditions that is it's this is how it's supposed to happen. The way that it's it is now is baked in. When y'all say they want the draft back, like they felt like they was fucking up when they lost the draft.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01And you up the age. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I think this is great for us to have the I my challenge is how do you introduce this to a 14-year-old kid? You know, like so, like, you know, E is, you know, E, you know, models for Ralph, plays ball, does all these different things, you know, goes to the private schools, right? And so, you know, I'm always kind of like questioning how do I, how do I get him up to speed? You know, like where the cliff notes on this, right? Like, how do I, how do I, you know, you know, introduce the information, let him create his his own opinions and and move through it. And the challenge for me now is it's like, damn, yo, there's a lot for a 14-year-old. You know what I mean? Like when you get a chance to be a kid. So I'm trying not to like, you know, heavy hand it, but like at the speed at which this thing is deteriorating, you know, it equals the heavy hand of conversation on the other end. And so, yeah, man, it's it's a it's a daunting, it's a it's a it's a it's a hectic situation we're in right now.
SPEAKER_07Ladies and gentlemen, this is let me ask you this. That's I'm Talib Kwali. This is a Tef Poe. And we got Coltrane Curtis in the house. Great episode ahead of us. Yeah, man. This is a good friend of mine, Coltrain. He's we heard him talk about working downtown near uh uh Wall Street, and you have the team Epiphany.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_07It's uh I don't want to label your company with the people.
SPEAKER_01I want to hear you, I want to hear you do it. I want to hear you, I want to hear the team Epiphany is I'm gonna come over the top, but I'm gonna it's it's a company that does aspirational marketing.
SPEAKER_07Woo!
SPEAKER_01You like that? I like that. Okay, I like that. I like that. Let's introduce a new term. I like that.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, and you and I go back a long time and we're good friends, but you also, in the beginning of this conversation, have talked about your son and how he's modeling and all the flash shit he's doing. And shout out to your family. And it's I'm just gonna say, brother, it's good to see you. We don't get to hang out that often, but we really party partied a lot, like recklessly and dangerously.
SPEAKER_01Dangerously and recklessly.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, and it's good to see you. You have like grown into such a family man. And every time I see you, it's all about family, man. And that, and that's such a beautiful thing to see. Uh, and I'm I'm proud of you. Oh, man. And I love you, and I appreciate you, man. And and thank you for sitting with us.
SPEAKER_01Nah, I mean, I mean, the fact that you, you know, asked me to do it, you were like, we're gonna do it. I was like, yeah, clear the schedule, whatever we're doing. You know, I have to clear the clear it with the wife. But, you know, I mean, we're wifey. We're out to wifey. You know, we grew up in an era where it was partying. Most people forget about that, right? Like, you know, my career went from Ralph to Echo to MTV, a little complex in between. And then it was like, oh, I started an agency. But like, I think one of the most important parts uh that kind of don't discuss get discussed is the partying, is the networking. Bring it down, is the is the is the connectivity to people, right? Like, and you know, I think that literally brought us together because, you know, the era that we were partying in, there wasn't bottle service, there weren't high ceilings, there wasn't, you know, there wasn't a cover at the door, there wasn't a dress code, there wasn't, well, we couldn't wear hats. I remember that we were fighting the hat phase where there was a small dress shirt in that. I was fighting it too. Yeah, we were fighting it literally And we won those fights. We did, we did it's some nights we called an L. There's some nights we call physical L's, but you know, that was the era where it was like, you know, you know, I guess the music they were calling open format. That was when, you know, we were at Lotus and Nell's and Two Eyes and you know, spread, which was like a sushi bar that we, you know, did a party in that was just like one, you know, it'll be you and most, and on the other end it'd be like China the wrestler at the party. Like it was just some wild New York City shit. And but that's that was so defining in terms of like who we are today and and the need to entertain. Because a lot of the times I was thrown to parties, right? Like and so like, you know, when you really look at what Team Epiphany is now, you know, when I started it, it was I started with Ben. And you know, it was a shout out to Ben Hamen, and it was just an excuse for us to make money and get to Miami. And when we realized that, oh my God, like this can be a thing, um, you know, I had to find an adult. And that was my girlfriend that I was dating at the time, Lisa, right? Yeah, shout out to Lisa. She and I have been together for 20, 25 years. You know what I mean? And so, like, not only is she my wife, she's my business partner, she's, you know, everything to me, but you know, Team Epiphany became about because of, you know, the need to, you know, be aspirational in nature, right? In terms of like the work that we're seeing, you know, to how we're telling cultural stories through brands lenses, right? And um, and it was just something my dad did. My dad ran an agency for 20-something years, and I grew up in that. So I'm always always like, if Michael Jordan's son can't hit free throws, that's whack, you know?
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_07There's an urban legend about your dad.
SPEAKER_01Let's see. Let's see.
SPEAKER_07That he was involved in the marketing of Colt 45.
SPEAKER_01Cult 45. So I do remember. So this was the era where if you were a black agency, right? Um, and you did marketing, right? Like that was a thing. You know, the the the places where you went and got money from was pharma, cigarettes, RJR tobacco was a big one for my dad. Um, and then it was spirits. Um, and um I remember like vividly the spirit stuff, right? Because when I started the agency, I mean, even for the last 23 years of having Team Epiphany, we've always had a spirit client, right? Like, so you know, hopefully there's some progression there. Um, but I remember my dad had Christian Brothers brandy, and I remember that the name of the campaign was Coolin' Coolin' with the brothers. You remember that? Jet. Yeah, a lot of jet, a lot of ebony, you know what I mean? And so there was that. But I do remember Colt 45 joints going on, you know, uh malt liquor, like the dynamite taste. Nah, 100%. And so like I just remember my pops. I mean, I remember, I just remember the work. You know, he started our his business in our brownstone in in in Bed Stop, 514 when Rose Street.
SPEAKER_07Shout out to Bedford Siv.
SPEAKER_01And that's where where it was. And I remember like sampling programs of RJR tobacco cigarettes at like Harlem Week. And I remember like literally, it was me, my mom, my dad busting open packets of cigarettes and making them three packs to be able to sample cigarettes at Harlem Week, right? I'm sure you know you go to jail for that if you had your 10-year, your 10-year-old busting open cigarette packets, right? Making Lucies, basically sampling Lucy's, right? But like that's that's where I came from. Like, you know, and so I think like Multicultural marketing. Multicultural marketing now, you know. And I think the first thing he told me when I started the agency is like, you do not want to be a multicultural marketer, you know? Um, and um, and I remember that, like, like, you know, and it's very difficult not to be, right? Because it's where you come from and it's what you look like.
SPEAKER_07It's what you fall back on, what you're comfortable with.
SPEAKER_01But I've always remembered that, you know, where I was. And now going back to like the club stuff, I remembered when I started the agency, what was your differentiation point? He would always ask me. And I was like, well, I was always so close to celebrity that I just don't love celebrity because I believe that celebrities are engineered by communities of people and individuals that most celebrities never mention, take advantage of. And then to me, those are the real celebrities, those are the real brand architects. And so when we started the agency in 04, you know, at the time we were calling them tastemakers and like all these things. And then we kind of came up with this term called influencers. And so the tagline for our, for our, for our company was it was Team Epiphany. We influence influencers. And so it was challenging because no one knew what the hell we were talking about. Um, and we were running up in big brands telling, like, hey, trust these, you know, we got these influencers, and these people are the architects of celebrity. And if we have them, we don't need the celebrity because we can use the network that makes celebrity work for brands and turn the brand into the celebrity. And that was the that was the spiel's. And 23 years later, it worked, right? And we're still selling the same thing, but but now we're kind of like influential purists, where I don't really believe that, you know, the people that our culture calls influencers have any influence at all. I feel like they have amplification, you know, attributes where they can, you know, publish something on their channel and a lot of people see it, but influence is about trust.
SPEAKER_07You're talking about the difference between like organic influence and like paid marketing.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, totally. It's a pl it's it's a big, it's a it's a it's a big thing. I mean, I think this this world of influence lives. Well, we grew up in a world of print magazines, right? Um and when those print magazines went away, media companies still needed to spend the money to get the reach, to get the eyeballs, to see the products. And so people actually became the reach. So people became the media. And so, you know, when you're paying people to say things, it's the farthest thing from influence because influence is about trust. Like, what if I was like, yo, yo, kawaii, you need to get this scarf, and you went out and got 30 of them, and then the next day you found out that I was paid by the brand to tell you to get that. That's not influential, that's distrustworthy, right? And so when brands are using influence to create trust, and so you find out someone's paying for it, it's kind of like converse to the effect of what you want to create. You actually create distrust. So we that's the reason why we're we're jammed up right now.
SPEAKER_07Shout out to my man, Mr. Mech. I've seen him on the Math Hopper podcast, but he always says, you cannot pay me to tell you something's dope.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I mean, yeah, as soon as soon as you see hashtag ad paid sponsored, all of that, like, you know, unsubscribe, right? Because, you know, that's not your people's, you know, like influence happens in very small circles, very, very small communities. And um, and that's kind of like what we um, you know, what we aligned our ethos to, right? Or like real people doing real things. And so even when we work with talent, right? Like, um, I don't, you know, I'm direct to talent, like, right? Um, I don't use agents, managers. You might go through them to get the deal done, but I want to know, like, if I'm rocking with you, I want to know, like, all right, cool, like I see all of this, but what do you like, right? Like most people, you know, when they like use me an example, right? Most people be like, oh, like he likes watches, he likes cars, he likes all the sunglasses, like all the dumb shit. But like if you know me, like I'm Pops, I'm dad, right? Like, so I'm I'm gonna tell you about a stroller. You want an upper baby? Right. You can tell me about basketball. I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna tell you basketball and be like, oh, did you get these compression socks, these unicorn joints from Nike? Did you, you know, like I'm telling you about what I'm passionate about. And so that's what we build programs and campaigns on, is what's passionate, because then you're involved, right? Now it's just not transactional. And so, yeah, man, I'm a dork nerd just of this, but I I just think Shout out to all the blurred. Yeah, man, listen, man. I um, you know, at 50, I'm I'm as passionate as I was when I started this shit, you know.
SPEAKER_00Uh let me ask you this, bro. I watched a few of your interviews. Uh um I I was I love them actually because uh I love one of my favorite pastimes is to listen to black men that are smarter than me in my free time.
SPEAKER_04That's right.
SPEAKER_00And I pick up pick up game, you know what I'm saying? Um you spoke about not creating trends, but kind of identifying people that are into like niche trends that you typically wouldn't care about, but you can go find somebody that's like hella into it. And when the time comes, it could feel or seem as if you predicted the trend because you have the foresight to have the right people on the team. Yep. Um how how important is it to think outside the box when you're building the team, the right team for the sake of success?
SPEAKER_01Right. So, you know, there's this thing about diversity, right? Like, you know, most people would hire our agency because, you know, we're 70% minority, 70% female, and we're diverse. And when you go to the procurement team, you could check the box and be like, I got a diverse agency. That's dying out a little bit more, right? Um, the way that I really look at diversity is is is different. I really look at it as like diversity of thought, right? Like we got 100, 110 people at the agency. Um, you know, there's this thing about focus groups in in our world where you kind of like pressure test shit before you put it into the world, right? And that's like one phase, right? I have the ability to do that internally at the agency before we even have to go to an external focus group because of the type of people that work at the agency. Um, and uh I still sit on every single interview, not the second one, the second interview, right? Um, and I'm not really checking to see if like people's cells in Excel are adding up and what their formulas look like. Somebody else is doing that, right? What I'm really checking is to see what they're into. And I expect everyone at the agency to be into something different and then bring that, you know, people like bring your whole self to work. Like, nah, that's some real shit, right? There's some real shit at TE because I want you to bring that. And and eventually that person's passion will be executed through the work that we do, making our work completely differentiated. Um, and keeping me ali uh one, connected and young as I can possibly be. You know, still the guy that goes to bed at 9:30, you know, like I'm still trying to be connected, but really seeing what the kids are into for real, right? Like we have a um uh we we were working on a program. We just did it like last two weeks on this one kid on our um strategy team. He was into dead stock magazines and collecting them, right? And he had this platform called um, I think it's called Trading Pages, right? When it's where like all his homies, like weird, right, like collect dead stock magazines and they get around and they read them together, they trade them, they sell them together.
SPEAKER_07It's a real analog thing.
SPEAKER_01Right, you know, so while everybody's talking about like all taxes back and like, you know, like or you know, um, like I saw Sinaj, he was like buying like CDs and playing like disc men, right? Like this whole retro like vibe, like Deepop, like all these kind of like, you know, you know, recycled, upcycled, but kind of like rekindled kind of like trends. You know, this this homie was like literally like had this kind of like subculture of people who were reading like magazines that we grew up with. Wow. And so what we did was we actually created a platform and we hosted an event for him. And then it was like, you know, he was hosting like little gatherings and it was like, nah, let's make this fly. And so I called Frank at the edition, he gave me the space. I called my my tequila client Los Lobos, and they gave me money for the bar. And then I called the complex cats, and I was like, yo, I'm need y'all to amplify this. And so now, you know, we got a case study in something that's new and burgeoning, right? Um, niche now, major trend later. Um, you know, and now we're just supporting one of the kids that work at the agency, right? And that's just one of 110, right? And so for us, it's very important to have the kids see their work in the world. You know, agency life is is really it's why most agency people drink and be alcoholics, right? It's the reason why I'm sober five years, right? Like, is because like, oh, I still smoke traits.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, you know, it's like you're not crazy. Right, I'm not crazy, right? Um, I'm a zero smoker, but like, you know, it's it's really amazing for them to see their work in the world. That's what keeps them at the agency, right? Like most of the kids that work for us, their parents don't know what they do, right? They spend all this money on this education and come back and be like, I want to work in an agency, Mom. I want to move to New York. I don't want to make a lot of money, right? Like, like, what are you talking about? But the day you see your work in the world, it's just so fulfilling, and especially if it's something you're passionate about. So diversity of the of thought, identifying subcultures and trends, and then connecting that to brands is the sauce. And it's, I think it's something that we do better than anybody. I think there are a lot of the bigger shops that kind of like bootleg it. I've seen a lot of stunt double agencies after us. Um, never the same, never replicated, you know. But the reality is it's our job going back to being an aspirational marketer, right? It's like culture. If you take something off the shelf, put something back of greater equal value, otherwise there ain't gonna be no fish later, right? And so what happens is like we live in a world where people overfish, over mine our culture, and there's nobody really putting it back. And so for us, I really utilize brands to be able to do that. Like even when we did um we have Grand Marnier when um we have Future, and um it was um, you know, they're like it was like the 10th anniversary of Dirty Sprite, and the brand was basically like, oh, we just have a performance. And I was like, mm, you know, yeah, he can do that on his own. Well, how about we turn it into a ballet? What? Yeah. What are you talking about?
SPEAKER_07The Dirty Sprite ballet. Right?
SPEAKER_01And then we did it at Brooklyn Academy of Music. And then, you know, next thing you know, like, you know, Misty Copeland is sitting in the front row watching it, right? And so for us, you know, yeah, future performed, yeah, it was a ballet. But what was interesting was that it was probably 80% of the people who were there, it was their first time seeing a ballet. That's where loyalty is won, right? Like, not at the not at the cash register, not at the bar. It's basically when you can teach a consumer something, they can use what you teach them as cultural currency, and they can use that cultural currency to actually, you know, better themselves, right? Like, yeah, I'm buying more of that, right? Like before I even taste it, right? And so that's what my job is to do.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I use that term cultural currency a lot because a lot of my career and my legacy is is built on that. It's hard for me to sometimes move in some of these spaces and because uh you you come from this culture, so you have put me in positions over time we've done business together where you see what it is I do and see how it could connect to a certain audience. Yeah, but for an artist like me, I don't have like it's not obvious, I think, to the mainstream person what my value as a brand. And I I say that very cautiously because I don't I very rarely refer to myself as a brand. Like I almost never, you know what I'm saying? I mean, I would, you know, I would I leave that for other people, other people I put in position. Right. Right. Other people, but as far as me as an artist, not my job to do that. I might, if I work with someone like you, I work with somebody, and that's their job to take the Tyler Quali brand and figure out where to where to place it. But um cultural currency is so important in these days because we go we come from the era where like you had like you you mentioned focus focus groups, and the focus group was a real thing, I remember that people took seriously, and people looked at that as gospel. And I've heard you speak on why focus groups are archaic, why they don't make sense, because the consumer today, you can't market to them in that way, they're too smart. Right. Could you go into that a little bit?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, it's all a quin, bro. Like it's all a quin, right? Like, you know, brands make billions of dollars, millions of dollars, and they base, you know, what they put in the world, you know, or the final, you know, DEF CON two of that work getting in the world is a focus group of people who want to get paid $125 for a day to tell you if they like this work or not. So you gotta really look at it like, you know, the la you know, you you you gotta look at it like why is a room Full of people that say the overhead is $1,500 for 10 people, and that's the that's the you know the bridge between you getting the work out in the world or not. Like, no, like what you really want are people like us talking to you about your brand, but we know the value of us to do it. And so we've actually created a platform at TE. Jared actually created it.
SPEAKER_06Shout out to Jared, man. Yeah, 100%. How's he doing?
SPEAKER_01He's doing really great, you know what I mean? Um, dad married, you know, doing the thing, you know. But you know, Jared runs my strategy team. Jared is, other than my dad, he's the smartest human I've ever met. Um and He used to party a lot too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Jared was outside, you know what I mean? He still is kind of outside a little bit white bee, but they go to those like membership like clubs.
SPEAKER_01Like they they they be doing like zero bonds.
SPEAKER_07Membership has this privilege.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they do zero bonds and they do that kind of shit, you know what I'm saying? But Jared's kind of like fake outsider. Okay, okay. You know what I'm saying? You know, but he'll he'll still he's not outside outside.
SPEAKER_07Nah, he'll hit you with it.
SPEAKER_01He still hits you with like a double vodka on the rocks. You know what I'm saying? So he's you know, he's he's still giving that to you. But, you know, the biggest challenge was was just kind of like, you know, where are brands getting their information from, right? Like, and you know, you're asking, you know, people who want to take a small fee to tell you about the world, and it's like it doesn't make sense. And so what we were really finding was that we were coming up with the proper insights for brands, but we never had the data to support the insights, so it's very difficult selling in a big position change or challenge to a brand without the data. And so um, you know, Jared created this thing called context, where it's kind of like a study and a kind of like a report, a trend report um that he works on with um a company called uh Harris Paul. Um, Nielsen Harris Paul. He only got two of them. And Harris Paul is run by this dude named John Gersma, who's brilliant. Um, and it allows us to kind of talk to influentials to kind of get their trend information and get their stuff, and then utilize that that that data to support our insights that we have. And people always ask, well, how do you get influential people to participate? Um, well, if you really look at folk and look at people in general, they got the same challenge that we have. Uh, all entrepreneurs have the same challenge that we have, which is proving a vision and a story. And so really understanding data and making data help tell that kind of creative story is the next frontier of it. And um Jared is white right on it right now. And so for us, you know, it's really important that people who respect the culture have a say-so and molding the work that's for the consumer. And 10 times out of 10, you know, at these bigger agencies, they're not there, right? Like these people who have jobs, not careers. These are people that, you know, you know, it's like, I don't want to call too many agencies out, but it's like, you know, you walk in and you can tell it's definitely square, you know, and then they'll have like a little table of like cool kids wearing like vape and you know, all that kind of shit. And then they'll be like, oh, this is our cool guy team, right? And the reality is it's like they don't impact the work because they're sitting over there. Like what you really need is someone who, you know, cares about the culture, creating the insights, and then demanding that the work meets that meets that criteria. And um, that's the reason why the stuff is kind of like blah, right? Like from a design perspective, it's kind of like, and you know, I don't want to be like the old 50-year-old curmudgeon, but I'm not excited about what these new kids, these young kids are spitting out. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07That's pretty curmudgeonly.
SPEAKER_01It is, but I mean, but I want to actively be a part in what they do. But you're active, like I'm an active curmudgeon. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_07You're not just on the porch. You have to get it.
SPEAKER_01Nah, nah, nah. I'm outside trying to be like, all right, cool, like let's let's go out here. I think one of the best opportunities I had was Echo and Complex because Echo specifically, because I had the ability to fail up.
SPEAKER_07You notice I'm wearing the Echo Game. I saw it, yeah. I saw it. Remember, like this is like an echo uh throwback.
SPEAKER_01It's a throwback, but I see that thread count.
SPEAKER_02This is new because actually this is nice. I was listening to that too.
SPEAKER_00I said, that thread, this is the new boy thread count. Yeah, no, we didn't have a we didn't have a video that. The OG joints ain't had this thread count.
SPEAKER_07I'm just gonna let you know when I walked in and I had this echo joint on, Coltrane said I look like a Filipino breakdancer.
SPEAKER_01Yo, sorry. It's true, yo. It's true. I know, I already know it, man. I'll just be like, it's either like you bombing trains and you got the graph and the cans, or you break dancing, or you could be beatboxing. I don't know.
SPEAKER_07Now, to everybody who I got a lot of fans from my music, but I also got a lot of fans from Getting Up. From the Echo Mark, shout out to Mark Echo, um, to the Echo video game Getting Up. I voiced the main character. What was his name? Character was named Train. This guy. Cole Train Curtis. The main character of that video game, you heard it here, is named after this guy.
SPEAKER_02I never told anybody this story before.
SPEAKER_07It's the first time you're hearing it first.
SPEAKER_02Isn't that embarrassing?
SPEAKER_01Nah, I mean. You were involved in that whole situation. 100%, 100%, 100%. I mean, it was again, you know, like I'm at a Moorehouse. I worked at Ralph, I got this job. Echo was in South River, New Jersey, you know.
SPEAKER_07I got Echo wine still.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, with the black bottle with the bow tie. Yeah, don't open that. Don't drink that. From from New Jersey. I mean, you could have had it from then and don't drink that.
SPEAKER_02That's just strictly for the shelf. That's a shelf shelf talker.
SPEAKER_01You know what I mean? Don't drink that, Quad. Don't do that. Yeah, I send you some good wine. Um, but you know, I mean, that's when we kind of like connected. Like it was through Corey. Corey went to Morehouse. Corey Smith. Corey was at Morehouse and just never talked to me while I was at school. I always remember that. I was like, you are gonna sell me like this, bro? All right, cool. I'm gonna see you. And the next thing I know, I wanted to get Qua in a campaign. Yeah, I'm Brooklyn, yeah. I don't really do that, you know. Except for like when wife used to kick me out the crib and I had to go stay on Corey's couch. That's the only time I went to Harlem. But, you know, it was like being able to create ad campaigns and visions with like my peers. I was too ignorant to be scared. Like the things that I was doing then, I had no right, no, I just didn't, and it was just more about like, oh, what do you want this to look like, Kawa? What do you want to wear? And Kawa used to kind of like, kind of wear like, he was like the promo guy. Like, Kwa would have like, oh, that was like, nah, we're not gonna wear that Ka, we're gonna do these shoes, this, that. And it was really amazing because we would just sit down and be like, this is what our ad came was gonna look like. And it was really special because we were spending more money in media advertising dollars than the label.
SPEAKER_07No, I gotta thank you publicly because Echo, working with Echo at the time when I had my album out, it made it look so much bigger than what I was doing. The Echo ads and the magazines on the billboards, I was everywhere. I looked, and to my family, Oh my God, yo. It looked like I was a superstar.
SPEAKER_01Yo, because they would pass you and you'd be on a billboard like walking in the bus stop. Nah, it was great. And I really understood. Thank you for that, bro. I mean, thank you. Are you kidding me? I was about to tear up. Like, that was like, that was like, for me, you know, it could have, you know, Echo lost their way a little bit, where it was like, you know, you wound up getting like Lincoln Park and then, you know, over rotating about getting like D12 and like all of that. That wasn't that wasn't me. That was another guy doing that shit. Um, for me, it was just an amazing thing.
SPEAKER_07Shout out to Lincoln Park at D12.
SPEAKER_01Shout out to my guys. You know, it wasn't my guys at the time. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, yo, like, where's J-Rue? Where's where's, you know. I mean, I forgot who. I think that was like Mike Thompson did that one, or maybe it was Rabbo. No, Rabbo, Rabo, the artist, did that one. Um, and so it was really great because it was like you were able to have like cats that I listened to, love the music. We became friends, we're now like at a photo shoot, and then we then we started working with graphic illustrators to actually illustrate what you were wearing. So this way we were really looking at like, to me, I would say fine art.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_01I agree. With like coupled with like lyricism, artistry, with the support of a of a tough media buy. Like you would open up a vibe, a source, or whatever, and we would have like the first three pages, the gatefold, all of that. And then we would just map out, oh, this is what we want. I mean, I mean, Rascass.
SPEAKER_07I need your help. Mark Echo in that era painted a portrait of Nina Simone that he presented to me somewhere downtown. But man, so much was going on in my life. I don't know where that's at.
SPEAKER_01I need your help in trying to strike that. I would find that that's the one thing about Mark is that most people don't know. You know, he is nice on the sticks.
SPEAKER_07Oh, yeah, man. I remember Mark Echo from before Echo clothing. Like I remember the graffiti days of Mark Echo and when it was with before there was Echo clothes you could put on. Yeah. Like I've been a fan since he was just a ride. I was in college, bro.
SPEAKER_01I was in Morehouse being like, yo, I'm gonna, yo, I was like, what, I can get a job here. I remember they paid me $27,500 a year. I was like, yo, bro. I was like, bro, I own a house in Montclair, bro. Like, how am I gonna pay this? That's why I started partying and doing that. But like, it was just a it was just a sense of like cross-industry togetherness when people talk about collaboration. Like, it was like a peaceful conversation at Raucus. It was like, I remember I got my first plaque from Raucus, right? Like, and it was just great to be able to see like how we did, and then we were friends. And so, like that ad campaign that we shot that night would be at Lotus, right? Like partying and and and so it was just like a really sense of community. It felt like like, you know, for some people when you move around New York, it's the loneliest place in the world. And for some people, you're always home, you know? And and I think it made, you know, like if the boroughs are together, you know, and then we were able to kind of take that energy and move it around. I think one thing that was special about Echo was that, you know, there was Rock Aware, there was Mecca, you know, there was there was PB, there was all those guys, but they were big in New York, Miami, LA, and the big cities. I think the one thing that really made Echo echo was the fact that, and it kind of crafted me as like a really good marketer, which is really owning and having a presence in those B markets and respecting the fact that those markets had a different sound. And so, like, you know, like, you know, like I mean, in Atlanta, listening to Kizzy Rock, moving down to Houston and hearing Bun, you know, and and and I think like we brought that energy that we created that was really small room, low ceiling, good music, and we brought that everywhere we went. And so I think that's the reason why Echo won is because it won the B markets, but it didn't win them. It was just part of the communities that were in those markets. And that's the reason why like radio was so important in the promotion of what of what we did, you know. Like we, you know, we, you know, we were at Cornerstone. It was CL. He was running the Cornerstone. He was running the 1200 COVID. Cornerstone was so important. Right? Like, so now we got the DJs and now you got the music and shout out to CL too.
SPEAKER_07He's still doing his thing with Digiwax right now.
SPEAKER_01I like my Digiwax. Yes. Yeah, yeah. 100%, right? Like, so these are names and people who did it for the love, you know. Some of us got more paid, you know what I mean? Um, but we all share the same values, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, like I got I got paid, still drive a station wagon, you know what I'm saying? Like I'm still into the shit. I want to mozz the MPV. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you know. You know, but it was a special time, and I think um I really wish this next generation had it, you know? Had it. You know, they act like it's like.
SPEAKER_07Where Ray Kwan says he said, 23 niggas with vests on, our own restaurants, don't send in my son's membership form. That life.
SPEAKER_00That life, you know what I'm saying? That life.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That life, you know. I probably shouldn't say this on camera, but that's probably why you should say it.
SPEAKER_07Look at me, sound like.
SPEAKER_00Like, we used to have massive smash and grabs. And I don't want to say what store we used to hit in St. Louis, but everybody know. For the Echo Gear.
SPEAKER_01You had to have it. I'll tell you a good smash and grab story. Um, Jarrett, um, so we wanted to shoot Ghostface. Ghostface was at Violator. That was Lighty. Yeah, and that was and that was James Cruz. James Cruz? James Cruz taught me the game because you try to bully me. I was like, all right, that's what you're wanting to do. You're not gonna bully me, James.
SPEAKER_07James Cruz has always James Cruz since I came in the game, has always been top-tier executive, but he's always treated me like I was a superstar whenever I was in his presence.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that was that was him, you know what I mean? And so we were like, all right, so he was like, all right, you wanna shoot ghosts, you're gonna pay us, but you gotta shoot this guy named Curtis Jackson. And so I was on some like, ah, yo, whatever. I thought I was slick, and I was like, all right, so I'll shoot him, cool, but let's get this ghost face. And so, same set that we shot ghosts on, you know, ghost probably had like three hours on set. 50 had like 15 minutes. And I was like, all right, we just gonna shoot it. Cool, we're gonna put in a can, I'm never gonna use it. So then we was like, all right, cool, ran the ghost ad and everything. And then um 50 had on uh an Echo Rangers hockey jersey. And I had to use the hockey jersey as an in-store visual because we needed to move it. It wasn't because 50 was in it.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_01It was because it was the jersey. And so literally Macy's Federated called and was like, we need the visual. And so we sent them the visual of the jersey. Little did we know it was the perfect timing for when in the club dropped. Let me tell you, I think I remember this. They stole everything out of Macy's. The the posters, the jerseys, everything. And so literally, after it went, we went back and we was like, all right, we're gonna shoot the next campaign with 50. And literally he came in and we're in Lighty's office, and he was like, yo, I ain't gotta sell crack no more, yo. Had a brown paper bag and was just like, and then after that, it was out of here. And then after that, we created G Unit Apparel, and then it blew up. But like the reality is, is like, that's hip hop right there. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_07Now, okay, a couple of things. Yeah, you your son is modeling for polo, used to work for polo. Oh man. Shout out to Thurston Howe, you know, the skillion there. One of the greatest success stories in the world is this man went to jail at Vic Lowe, was foundational, starting in the low lives. They was doing the smash and grabs. When I was coming in the game, like I'm from Brooklyn. You couldn't wear polo unless you was bouted. Unless you was ready to fight, don't put no polo on. I got it. In Brooklyn when I was broke. So then, you know, he changes his life. He was the MC in the Raucus era at the same time. Shout out to Master Fool. And they was doing their thing. They ended up on the lyricist lounge TV show. Thurston Howell stayed one of the most prolific MCs, and then he leaned into his Spanish bag because he's Puerto Rican. So he started making like reggaeton tracks and leaning into Spanish. So he's very influential in the the the linking of the Latin and the and the and the black hip-hop worlds. But then you see this Ralph Lipschitz documentary on HBO. And he says in the documentary, he's like, those guys stole so much polo that they made me hot in the streets. Yeah. No. You know what I'm saying? So I mean that's I gotta salute Thurston Howard, bro. And then you see him and his son in the polo ad, in the garment district, all over all over the different big cities. Man, salute that, man. That's Brooklyn all the time.
SPEAKER_01Yo, man, I mean, trust me, I've been robbed for a snow beach. I've walked home. Mine was the ski man.
SPEAKER_07I mean I had I had a I had to make him pull out a hammer out his jacket. First, first he tried to he tried to hit me with like he had on the giant starter jacket. And he was like, yo, let's trade. He ran ran across the street with like I'm making jacket.
SPEAKER_02Let's trade. What's that's that's let's trade.
SPEAKER_07Nigga, no. My mama took me to Pennsylvania. We got this at the outlet. Nah, give me that though. Come on. No, he pulled out the hammer out his shit and he chased me around the block with that fucking hammer. And then I went and got all my all those guys that you all we went back and we we man, we drove around for hours looking for this dude, man. Nah. It was traumatic wearing polo.
SPEAKER_01Nah, it's so funny now. It's like it's you know, three, you know, 360. It's like I worked at the floor in in Atlanta and Lancaster. Nah, it was me and Derek. Derek Watkins. Okay, yeah. He turned out to be Fawnsworth. Shout out to him. So Derek worked with me there. Um, and it's just amazing that.
SPEAKER_07Derek, you need to come do this show as well, bro.
SPEAKER_01I mean, uh, you got his map? I'll set you. Okay, yeah. I'll do it.
SPEAKER_07And so Africa last time.
SPEAKER_01And so we got a call where it was like, yo, um, you know, we're we're doing this collection about Morehouse and the connection between Oaks Bluff, Martha's Vineyard, and you know, you know that. And then Ellington got casted for it, you know? Um, and that was just a surreal experience for me, 360, um, just to kind of like watch that happen. And it was really crazy because um, you know, there was this whole like it was through the eyes of Ellington, right? Like, if you really go look at that, that 22-minute documentary, that was just incredible, right? Like, really looking at through the you know, the world of like, you know, our our own Hamptons in the in the vineyard, right? And and the connection to Morehouse, it was like through Ellington. And so there's like this whole 360 kind of like feeling that I had through it. And then, you know, obviously he gets product, and one of the pieces that he got, a friend of ours, they just relaunched this Japanette uh Japanarack, which is like what AL Skills had on last year, right? And it's like, you know, like retail, they're like 800, 1200, resell, they're like eight grand, ten grand. And so Ellington gets one and it's in his closet, and he was like, Yo, I'm gonna rock this to school. I was like, nah, fam. Like, no, you're not.
SPEAKER_02You started having like rest started sweating, like, oh my god, they're gonna, and he's not built like that. You know what I'm saying? Like, he private school.
SPEAKER_01You know what I mean? Like, he wasn't built, so like he's like, What do you mean I can't wear that? Because you know, he wears all types of shit. And I was just like, nah, you can't wear that one piece because it's gonna be somebody in that is gonna take it off you, and it's like, I'm gonna let him have that because we're not really about that no more. But you know, it's funny how life is completely cyclical, but like love changed my life, man.
SPEAKER_07Like let me ask you this. I was watching Joe Button podcast, and I seen Mark Lamar Hill wearing a Joe Button podcast hoodie, which I thought was like, oh, that's true, that's dope, Mark. You can supported, but then Joe Button had on Christian Dior. He didn't have on his own much. Nah. Right? So I remember the era of um when G Unit came out. I think what made G Unit successful, and you could correct me if I'm wrong or give me some insight on this, is that Jay-Z wasn't wearing Rockefeller. Diddy wasn't really wearing Sean John. These niggas was not wearing their own stuff. Whereas whereas you would see 50 performing and when it was G-Unit tank tops.
SPEAKER_01100%.
SPEAKER_07Yes, part of it. I mean, I think that's like Like they would wear the G-Unit sneakers. And there's a story about them being mad at game because he didn't want to wear the sneaker.
SPEAKER_00No, no, uh, in his book, he I use this in life. It's called the G Unit sneaker test. I do this with all my partners.
SPEAKER_07The G-Unit sneaker test, break.
SPEAKER_00He called a meeting in one of his books where he uh called everybody to the room that was associated with G Unit. And then he looked at the shoes everybody had on, and he was the only person wearing the G-Unit kicks. He was like, I got a problem with you too. Nah, you have to support just yo.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it was so funny. I mean, I'm kind of like the same way. We have some really cool team Epiphany merch. Like every year I do like this like Il Collab, and it's like I only wear it like the year later, so it's kind of like dead stock and patina. Right. But like, that's a real fashion needs to be. Because you want to get it when nobody got it. You know what I'm saying? Like, no, you ain't got this, you can't get that, huh? Like 50 was like, nah, out the bag from China. Like, he was like, I'm putting it on, no iron, you know what I'm saying? Like, and you know, that worked for his brand, right?
SPEAKER_07Like, because people who listened to his music wanted to feel like they were in G Unit. I mean, they were at the concert, like, I'm G.
SPEAKER_01Yo, I mean, you know, that entire album, you feel like, you know, still to this day, like you don't want to listen to get Richard Dodd trying and not have like, you know, like G Unit stuff on. I mean, but I remember, I remember like when we used to go on tour, it was different. Like when we used to go, we used to, you know, you know, we used to be in the clubs, you know, but being in the club with them was a little different. You know, like one time we was in, um, I think it was Connecticut somewhere. Damn, I don't know. It was like a show, and I looked around and like I was the only person in the crew that didn't have a vest on.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_01You know what I'm saying? So how I go hanging out with you, and then I'm with 50, I gotta wear a vest. I'm like, yo, this is not, this is not it. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_07Like I mean, that's what being successful in the music business means, Coultron. I don't know if you know this.
SPEAKER_01Yo, my pops was like You ain't never seen behind the music?
SPEAKER_07That's what happens next.
SPEAKER_01Nah, my pops, I remember. He was like, wait, what? Like, I remember the two instances my dad had to intervene. One, Mark bought me a motorcycle and I had a bike. It was an echo bike. It was crazy. We was in a source with it, was fly. I was in the Puerto Rica Day Parade with it, it was crazy. I was one wheel wink 1100, like all the shit with the bike. I was with it, and my dad came to me. He's like, You got a bike? It says echo. He took the keys, he drove down the South River and walked into a meeting where Mark and Seth was and was like, yo, if my son kills himself on this bike, I'm gonna kill you.
SPEAKER_07Man, salute, bro.
SPEAKER_01You know what I'm saying? Salute. That's real, that's real shit. We had the same conversation. My dad had the same conversation with Lighty when he really found out like I was rolling with them, and he was just like, yo, if something happens to my son, like we don't have a problem, you know? And um, yeah, I just remember my pops like that. I'm the same kind of dad, you know what I mean? Like, I will pull up. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like I will pull up. But those are that was a different era, you know what I'm saying? But again, Echo allowed me to kind of like traverse all of those, you know what I'm saying? And like really be able to be like, have stories to tell, right? Like I feel like, again, like what's life if you don't have experiences and stories, you know what I'm saying? Gotta get off the phone, put it down, and live a little bit, you know, fail a little bit.
SPEAKER_00You said something critical earlier that I want to touch back on that's kind of relevant to my world as a political organizer. Um, giving folks the space to fail up. Yeah. In the political world, we don't really well, I give grace, but a lot of people in the organizing world got like zero grace because it's such a bottleneck opportunity to get somebody elected, to pass this proposition, to shoot down this messed up law.
SPEAKER_07And be feeling like the stakes is higher too, whether that's in your mind or not, is what it feels like.
SPEAKER_00Exactly, right? Um merging that with having a person collect data, you know what I'm saying, can be a real challenge, right? Right. Um what are some experiences for you that uh identify people who just can't simply can't do the job or people who may be able to do the job but come from a different terrain of world, you know, a different world than what you may usually pick up somebody.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, again, I'm a in a world of hard skills, right? Like, you know, um again, I always look back through the lens of like how I want to raise my kid, right? And I really look at like, you know, the people at my agency who stay, who stick, people who get hired. Um, you'd be surprised at people who don't have hard skills. Right? Break down what hard skills are. Hard skills. Can you write? Can you read? Can you apply what you've read to what's going on in your life and report that back to us so we can leverage that as an agency? And so Jared's team, I would probably tell you, you know, two years ago they were all published writers. Probably 90% of them now are published writers. That's right. Um, why do we hire published writers? Well, a couple reasons. Um, one, we couldn't afford the strategists as they were leaving other agencies because they were gr incredibly overpaid and underskilled. Two, um the people who are in it who can communicate what they're seeing and equate that back to a challenge that a brand has, that's what I need. And it was also in an era going back to print media, where print media was dead and dying. So now you have all of these writers and journalists who don't have positions. And so I can't teach you how to write, can't teach you how to read, but if you got both, I can teach you how to be a strategist. And so that worked out well for us extremely. Other things like account level people, account people were gr incredibly overpaid for for a long period of time in our industry. Um I'm down to pay people the the farm as long as you have the skills to do it. Um and what we were really finding were that, you know, the account people that were in our industry weren't relationship builders, they were more project managers. They can manage X's and O's, right? But the real good ones were people that, you know, can articulate what's going on in culture again through the business. And so if we're selling in something to a client that's difficult for them to culturally understand, and then the person that's uh leading their account doesn't understand why we're doing things and can't make decisions on their own. And so what we really found was that we hired communication experts, not publicists, but communication experts as account people. And so what that really did, it allowed them to manage the work, yes, but also understand and give the client, you know, the information to fight for the work on their own, right? Because clients have to fight for the work in rooms that you'll never be invited in. Um, and so it's important to give them the tools. And the people who give them the tools are the culturally connected account people who aren't traditional account leaders. And so I just really believe in hard skills. Um, and once you have them, you know, we're talking about having, you know, um speaking multiple languages, right? Ellington's first language is Mandarin, right? My I have my my younger one count, Mandarin, then English, and then Ellington spoke Spanish because of the school. And so when you really think about it, those are hard skills, right? Like that means you can move around the world differently and you can have conversations and get into culture and get into the cracks and crevices of shit.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_01Right. Like, so I'm really a fan of really incredible hard skills, you know. Um, and um, you know, even like our creative team, yes, we have the graphic illustrators, but we also have, you know, not just spatial designers, but architects, you know, um, because we have to build structures and build things and understand what can and can't happen, and then be like, hey, like we got X amount of money to do this, you know, can we structurally do this and budget, right? Guys can blink at that and do that in my agency, you know?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, you're building dreams, and in the movie Inception, the first thing they had to go get to build the dream was the architect. Yeah. Yeah, you gotta get the architects. You talk a lot about this book that you grew up reading.
SPEAKER_01Oh, wow. Positioning. You really did this, Quad. You got to make it crazy. And you're gonna make me cry if you ask this question. So go ahead. Okay, yeah, man.
SPEAKER_07Positioning. You grew up with this book. Go ahead. Grew up with your pops. Go ahead. Uh and um break down why how that book impacted you and why positioning is so much important so much more important than marketing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm not a marketer, I'm not an advertising guy, I'm in a positioning expert, right? I say that in small rooms. Um, this is not gonna be a small room, but this is the first time we're talking about it. Okay, yeah. Um, is because to me, you want to be well positioned. And if you're mispositioned, it's damn near impossible to reposition yourself. And I'll give you an example. Um, I'm in the club, I'm partying. I'm partying my face off, bro. You know, I start an agency, I'm good at the work, but I'm mispositioned because people think if I give this kid a mill, what's he gonna do with it? Because he's in a club every night.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What changed my positioning was something that had nothing to do with the work, the quality of work, what it looked like. It was my wife. The fact that, you know, um, I've been with my wife. We've been married, I think, 20 years next year. Um Salute to that. Um, I've I always say to everybody, like, um, I haven't had new buns in three decades. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's my wife, that's my dog. You know what I'm saying? Oh man. It changed the way people looked at me. When I became the dad and the parent and the husband that I am, it changed how I was positioned and it changed the way people looked at me and business.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so, you know, I'm I never I I'm not religious. I didn't grow up. My, I mean, I went to Morehouse, right? And I had to go to King Chapel and wear them damn suits and and do all of that, but that wasn't my thing. Um, I grew up on a book called Positioning. And it was a book that my dad, we read, like, reread. Like, I mean, he was super aggressive and militant with my education. Like, I remember like not doing well and him like doing shit like, take the door off your bedroom. You know what I'm saying? Be like, oh, like I'm gonna take your privacy from you. Like, you're gonna get this reading right, you know? And the one book that we re religiously every year was this book called Positioning. And it was really about perception and and and how you navigate and how everything you do and everything that you wear and everything that you say and how you smell, it changes how you're positioned in life. And so for me, that's the reason why like I take painstaking attention to detail about every fucking thing that I do because it says something about me. And so, like, as a marketer, yeah, like as an advertiser, yeah, but like I'm Yoda, I'm a Jedi because I'm floating above both of those things. Like when you really look at like that world, like you know, the strategy and there's tactics, but above all of that is positioning. And that's the piece that like to me is is is just the lost art of because in order to be well positioned, you have to be genuine and you have to be consistent. It has to be deliberate, right? Like you don't get an off day, you know? Um, and so to me, it's a book that, you know, when people my dad passed away, what, Ellington's 14, so 13 years ago. Um, and I was I was explaining this uh Susan in in in in my office, we were talking about losing people. And um the the the horrible thing about losing people is one losing them, but is the fact that over time are looking at the photos of them because they don't age.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right? Like, and so you're left with these things and these things don't age, and you expect them not to age, and so they become more to you. And so there's a couple things that I have from my dad that are like, okay. And the other day I like almost like I I put my rings in um in the cup holder in the car, and I like panicked, and I like literally was in the office. Like, I went home, couldn't find it, went to the office, and literally I was a damn near, and this is two days ago, I was damn near in tears looking for it, and I got back in the car. Uh I was like, fuck, I'm just gonna smoke one and just like fuck it. Smoking always always helps you calm your nerves. Yeah, it really does. You start to look around and then you just oh, there the rings are. And then literally they were in my car in the cup holder, but this is this is my dad's ring. Um, this is one of the two things. Um, and what's really special to me is that it's not a Morehouse ring. I went to Morehouse because my dad should have gone to Morehouse. When I went to Morehouse, I thought I was going to Hillman. You know what I'm saying? Like I was buying into that shit. Dear old. Um, and so my dad's ring is from Queens College. You know what I'm saying? So I really respect this. And then the other thing that I have is um this positioning book. But it's the book, it's original print, it's underneath my computer, it has all his post-its and notes. And anybody that starts working for me, um, you get, depending on how much I love you or how much I think you need it, you get two books. Um, you get um, you get this positioning book, the the the new issue, the new cover piece. Um, and then you also get um Gladwell's Tipping Point. Great book. Which tipping point to me was just the origin of influence.
SPEAKER_07Yes, not just a great roots album, but great book. I've read Tipping Point a few times. You know, and Gladwell's amazing.
SPEAKER_01And that's a, and that's a and those are my two books, you know. And so it's really interesting because now Ellington's starting to read it, you know, and as things start coming to focus, I feel like while a lot of people look to, you know, religious books, you know, to me, I look at positioning. And so um it's done well for me. Um That's beautiful, you know. Um it's very black and white and allows you to kind of like figure out how you're gonna navigate in life and color in between the lines and all that kind of shit. But like to me, positioning, right, is Jedi level marketing and advertising. And um, and um, you know, you know, I, you know, I love Yoda. You know what I mean? I love I love Star Wars and shit, you know.
SPEAKER_07There is no try.
SPEAKER_01There is no try.
SPEAKER_00There's no leader. You just gave a sh a shitload of free game. Absolutely. It's a lot of catch up.
SPEAKER_07It's like the positioning audio book over here.
SPEAKER_00It's a lot of catch up there. I want to write a book. I want to write a sure, bro. I want to write a book. I do, I do. I know a lot of younger artists that need to consider a vast majority of what you just said. Um looking at the the Pooh Sheisty and the Gucci Man situation, right?
SPEAKER_07Like um break that down because you you have an interesting, like, you know a lot more about that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, some stuff I won't say.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I want to hear about this because it sounds like the dumbest shit I've ever heard in my life.
SPEAKER_00Some stuff I won't say on camera, but um I talked to some people behind the scenes and I wrote a piece about it for my Substack. Um Yeah, I read that.
SPEAKER_07It was it was very deep, but I I felt like I had to even to read your piece on Substack, I had to know a lot about what was going on to get it.
SPEAKER_00I mean, you got this situation where um these young artists pool shisty, big thirty, they come from the underground of Memphis. They hit big amongst kids, and they kind of had this energy. If you're an older person, it kind of felt like if Pac and Biggie weren't enemies type thing. Like the marketable pretty boy thug with the fat, black, and ugly dude, but they best friends and they ride and they ride and do whatever with each other. Um it's a long story. One gets signed to one label, one gets signed to another label, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um with this situation, what I feel is you got uh I'm not I'm showing a lot of grace when I say this. You got a black family that doesn't fully understand the real realities of the music business, in my opinion. Okay. And um you take some of that ancient deep southern poverty type shit and mix it with uh niggas being willing to kind of give you anything so long as you do a particular thing, uh they fed the monster. And um I think it's a sad situation on both ends. You know, a lot of people um I don't type tap into like the internet uh streets because that's not real. You know, oh Gucci Man snitching, anybody snitch if you put a burner to their head in the studio, like you put a burner to the man's head in the studio and unscrewed his earrings allegedly, like what do you expect to happen? But um I think it's still a messed up situation though, because um some of it is about a contract dispute. And I think sometimes we see brothers in hip hop begin to kind of become the new nigga handlers. So instead of uh the white folks coming down there to have to talk to you about your contract, they're gonna send a nigga that they think could do it. And um I think the the Y's are starting to subtly reject the notion that they can be handled by those types of people. And um there is an element of crashing out involved, but there's also an element of you still you gotta remember sometimes when you're dealing with these rap, like certain rappers, you ain't really dealing with rappers. Like you ain't really dealing with an artist, you're dealing with a person that was trying to claw their way out of poverty through the usage of words and sound.
SPEAKER_07I mean, wasn't that Gucci just a few years ago?
SPEAKER_00You said it. So what I feel is I feel it's a layered situation, um, but um I think it's a tragedy all the way around, period. Uh and I think it should be an example to people that uh the art should still matter. Like if we inflate it with bullshit, in the end we're gonna get bullshit back, you know what I'm saying? Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Where did this happen at? Houston. Uh it happened in Dallas. Dallas. Um, it's where's Pooh Shistee from?
SPEAKER_00Memphis.
SPEAKER_07And Gucci's from Atlanta.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Atlanta's how different is Atlanta now than when you were in Morehouse.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I mean, I remember freshman year 93. I had no idea. I this is exactly what freaking was. Ain't nobody told me what it was. It was a normal day. And I walked out the back of my dorm and I was like, what is this? I love this. I love this. I love this. Um, and it was the time where the music was great. It was artists, right? Not street cats only. Yeah. Right? Like, I think if you only get one thing, then you got a challenge. And I think it was mixed up, you know. Like, you know, you know, you had Goody, you know, one of my best friends is Gip, you know, and you didn't really know who the street dude was, was there, right? Like Cats didn't know, like, you know, CeeLo was that guy. You know what I'm saying? And he's singing. You don't think each catch you slipping, it's CeeLo. You know what I'm saying? It wasn't big, it wasn't Dre, it wasn't Stax, it wasn't Dro. It wasn't none of that, right? And then you still had La Face and, you know, and organized noise. And then you still had cats, you know, at on Peach Tree and Peach Tree partying, listening to great, you know what I mean? So, like, to me, whew, I loved Atlanta at that particular point in time. And um, I remembered Fun's true story. I remember another my dad's story. Um, I was dating a girl. She was dancing at Magic. She was like the number one girl in Magic. We were living together. And um, I remember one day my dad knocked on the door. I didn't even know I know how he found me. And he was like, We leaving. He saw her. His pops white pops wild. He saw her, though. He knew why I was there. You know what I'm saying? He was like, yo, this is crazy right here, fam. You know what I'm saying? And I packed up the sob and moved back. Right. And again, saved my life because like you can't have a city of scammers. And, you know, I got cats in Morehouse that's still locked up on credit card scams, right? Like, and so the reality is is like, you know, as I'm thinking about where he wants to go to school, it's like, you know, I want, and he needs that black experience even more than I did. That was my next question.
SPEAKER_07Like the importance of HBCUs, because I met you, correct me if I'm wrong, but I met you through Corey. Yeah, 100%. Right? So, and Corey, and there's all these when Corey was my manager, there was a lot of things that he was involved in, and people in the music business, people in other businesses that were connected because of Morehouse. Yeah. The, you know, going to black HBCUs and what that does for for for what did it do for you?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I would probably tell you. Black HBCUs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's it's all good. It's double down, double down blackly. I mean, I think it really built a sense of community for me. It created a sense of fight. Um, to get in was hard, to get out is even harder. Um, but I think what it did for me afterwards, it it I didn't have the best academic experience because I wasn't going to, I wasn't going to Wall Street, I wasn't going to preach in my daddy's church, I wasn't going to be a doctor, right? Like, so anybody in the creative fields, like when I was at Morehouse with dreads, like that was like, oh my God, what is what's going on here, right? Like, and Corey and them were a little bit older, but like as you get out, you I identify with different, I found my own Morehouse, my own creative Morehouse through the people that were there. So you got like Clarence, you got Barr Brown, you got, you got Corey, you know, you got Jinx, you got Mark Anthony Green, you know, you got, you know, James Jeter now. You got like these different creatives who also all had a challenging time there because they weren't looking for a job. They were looking for creative careers, and Morehouse doesn't really do much to support that then, hopefully more now. Um, but I loved Atlanta. I felt like Atlanta raised me. That's where like I got with Kenny Burns. That's where I was taking photos of 2620. That's how I met Monty and Biz, taking pictures of them in the warehouse. Right? Like, and so for me, I was able to create lifelong relationships through Atlanta and through the Morehouse Connection post. But I there's tremendous trepidation to send my son to Atlanta. I do want him to park down a spelman, you know what I'm saying? Like it'll be a nice little look for him, you know what I'm saying? Especially coming out of that little low campaign. That's a good little thing right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Position right, you know what I'm saying? Position right, you good. But I don't know if Atlanta's for him. You know what I'm saying? So now as I think about like where I want him to go to school, I want him to go to the best academic school, but I also want him to have that black experience.
SPEAKER_07Man, this is something that is unique to black parents. I would have crashed out on the black experience.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I had to go to like Harvard. Like I couldn't go to, I would have crashed out. You know, you put me somewhere where it's women and I mean dudes with influence.
SPEAKER_01Bro, I mean, we at 112. We had Atlanta live. You know what I'm saying? Like Justin's just opened up. You know what I'm saying? We eat in the cheesecake factory. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_07You were taking your wife eat a cheesecake factory? You know, when the internet says you're not supposed to do that.
SPEAKER_01Let me tell you, yo, my wife, most people think my wife is Taiwanese, and most people think like, you know, I got, you know, I got she more hood than me. You know what I'm saying? She's from San Mateo. I think she she acts like she's from Oakland. Um and San Mateo is hood. It's parts of it. Parts of it, you know what I'm saying? But like she's um, you know, what's funny, having a uh a Chinese wife, she wasn't really super welcome when she went for homecoming. You know what I'm saying? Like it wasn't really into that, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_02I was like, yo, just give it a shot.
SPEAKER_01You gonna lie, she's great, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_02I can get the weird square one. I got the dope one. She finished gonna go on to the Balman, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01She would have beat a lot of them up. But um, you know, I uh so to answer your question, you know, uh E hasn't been there. I think uh we were gonna go when he was doing all the Morehouse stuff, but I think this year, um, you know, work is life for us, you know. Um we've got a couple things that we're doing on HBCU campuses this year. Um and I'm gonna bring him. I'm gonna bring him to homecoming. Um, but I want to bring him like, you know, like the Thursday before, you know, so you just don't see, you know, the Q's barking and and, you know, you know, you know, the Miss Maroon and white girls. Like, you know, all I I want him to see what it looks like. Right, not the school days. I want him to understand that, like, yo, when you go in this dorm room, like you might not have hot water for a week, my G. Like, this is not, you know what I'm saying? You know him. Like, he's you know, he's four-star, five star. He told me one time he um when he goes on planes, he only likes to turn left. And it took me a second. I don't get it. He only goes sits in first class, bro. Um, he only turns left. Yeah. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like I need him to have a black college experience.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, you do.
SPEAKER_01That's why I need that. But the question is, isn't what city? So for me, like, you know, Howard's, you know, pop up a little bit more, but still, like, I want him to have that killer. You know what I'm saying? Like that killer in him. You know? And so that to me feels, you know, the Weses, the the Yales, you know, I'm not a big Boston guy.
SPEAKER_07Do you feel like um that that best eye gave you that killer?
SPEAKER_01So what's funny is like um my friends always laugh at me because I finished high school in Montclair, New Jersey, right? And so like I went in, you know, I was born in Brooklyn, you know, K through 12, PS208, you know, Avenue, East 48th Street in East Lapush and then.
SPEAKER_07East 48th and Avenue K is by where I grew up at.
SPEAKER_01You know, like um, but Brooklyn, you were on foot, you know what I'm saying? This is the time when it wasn't no cell phones. You was key.
SPEAKER_07That's a two-fair zone, too.
SPEAKER_01Yo, you was you was that's what it was. You straight up the bus on Utica.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, with the with the key around your neck.
SPEAKER_01Latch key kid, you know what I'm saying? And I remember that walk from Malcolm X making that left on Monroe, I hopping off that bus and remembering like you gotta have your wits to you, you know what I'm saying? I remember these days when I they took them fives off me and I was walking barefoot in the snow. You know what I mean? Like I remember those things. And so I think it's a passage like a motherfucker. I made it, you know, it made me, you know what I'm saying? But, you know, my Atlanta streets days, you know, like made me too. Okay.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01The streets. But you know, I but I've always had uncles and the block looked out for you. Like, even like when you was in, it's like when you play ball. It's like all that shit can be done out in the park, but yo, leave Shorty alone. He's playing ball, leave him alone. Like when I was on the block, it was like, yo, leave Shorty alone. He looked a little goofy, you know what I mean, his beret and his little Avrex and his loafers and his jeans, you know what I'm saying? Leave him alone. But you were kind of protected, you know? And so I just don't think that that balance in hoods exist anymore. Like people like, you know, when you when you you know you think about, you know, not to get crazy with it, but like when you really think about when the streets ain't right, the hood ain't right. You know what I mean? And the and you You know, streets want calm.
SPEAKER_07And this this is some this is some old man shit to say. But I feel like with the more information people have, um, just the the worse it's going to get just by nature. It's going, it's going to ratchet up. It's going to be every generation. We our parents looked at us like, man, we would have never done that. We looking at the next generation like, man, these YNs is wild. Like, and the YNs today is gonna look at whatever they call them after that, like them niggas.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, like, when you see them YNs and they be having on the tech fleeces and a and a and a tech fleece ski mask on, and it'd be 92 degrees outside, I don't want no problems with him. I want no smoke with you, bro. You got it. I don't want no problem. But back in the day when you was in the park and it's summertime and the dude got the trench on, you know, he got the triple fat trench on. Do you you know you don't want no problems with that.
SPEAKER_07Do y'all feel like COVID sort of accelerated that shit?
SPEAKER_01Hell yeah.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, man. I mean, I think Because now it's like it's okay to walk at a bank with a mask on.
SPEAKER_01Hell yeah.
SPEAKER_07You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01No, I mean, and the tension that it created. Like, I I think we got out of COVID and we try to forget that it ever happened, right? And because you forget ever happened, you forget the damage it's done and how to replace it, right? Like, for me, COVID, COVID almost killed the epiphany for us, right? Because when it hit, before it hit, you saw a trend of every agency letting their people go to prepare for the financial struggle. For us, we were like, yo, how we gonna pick who we gonna save? We gonna pick everybody and we're gonna last as long as we can last. And so, you know, we had offices in New York, Miami, and LA. We had to close the offices in Miami and LA to save the people. And it really got down to like, you know, you know, like every day, Lisa and my CFO McKinsey, they would just be like, all right, we got this much, we can last another 20 days or whatever. And we got our little loan, you know what I mean? It carried us a little bit longer. But like, we we we paid everybody and we gave everybody their bonuses for two years and not having the revenue. And we almost bankedrupt the entire company doing it. And yeah, it's a great story to tell, but like, oh my God, the damage that that did to like knowing that like everything that you work for, even just tuition money for the kids, you know what I'm saying? You you risked.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so, like, how do you, how do you, how do you like fix yourself after that, you know? Um COVID, COVID had a lot of effects on a lot of different people, and I think the probably the the worst effects are the ones that we forget or the ones that are blind to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. In a few of your um past interviews, including this one as well, you've been able to pull out the humanity that a lot of marketers don't pull out, I feel. Um and I thought that was very interesting, you know, because it's like you could lead people to hell and save yourself.
SPEAKER_07And make a lot of money doing it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07And make a lot of money for you and your people. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, I think it's um, I think when you pour yourself into it, right, like it makes the work better, but it also limits what you can do. And I think when people get into this world, they don't try to limit what they can do, they try to rape, pillage, and make as much as they can. Um, and I would just also say that, you know, when people talk about having money or being rich and not to be corny, but I felt like I've always been rich. I've always had what I needed, and I've always been able to eat and provide based off of relationships that I've had, you know? Positioning. Yeah, positioning, right? Like, so I really believe, like I talk to E about it all the time, and it's like, would you rather have a relationship or a dollar? You know? Now, if you can get a relationship and a dollar, you're good, right? Because you can do some powerful things. But for me, it was just like, you know, not that the the streets fed you, but you never really went hungry. And I've always been a kid that's always had exactly what I've needed, sometimes a little more, but never a lot, right? And so looking at like how I was raised, it's like I and people ask, like, I look back at it and it was like, oh, uh, uh, you know, like my parents had a Volvo and they had a Subaru before, and before then they had a Carmen Ghia, and like they always had a little bit nicer things, but like, you know, didn't have a lot. You know what I'm saying? And it's like, I re I remember when my dad got his first Mercedes, and um, and I think he came on hardship or times or whatever, and um one of the options on the bins was a wood steering wheel. And as I can tell, my dad was Super Hood from South Jamaica Queens. He um, when he turned the car in, he kept the steering wheel. You know what I'm saying? Because he was extra for that. Chino relate to that. He's from Texas. He related to that shit. Yeah, he had a wood green, he had a E430. Uh remember it, you know what I'm saying? And he was just like, I kept it. So, you know, and my family's also South Jamaica Queens, you know what I'm saying? Like he went to, you know, you know.
SPEAKER_07That's why you was able to gel with that 50 cent energy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, 100%. You know, Basley Park, you know what I'm saying? Ajax Park, we play ball in there, you know what I mean? And um, but I've always just been about like pour everything that you have into the work, you know, and and um, and if you can't do that, then you shouldn't you, you know, people always remember the shots you don't miss, you know what I'm saying? Hit every bucket, yo. Hit every bucket, man. Like, you know what I mean? Hit them buckets, bro. And so if you don't pour every your heart and soul into it, like, like, I don't want no parts of that. And I think like in business, it's it's not a good thing, right? Like, so at Team Epiphany, we laugh all the time, be like, yo, like we can't give you B work. We can't give you B work. Like, it doesn't, it can't, we don't know how to do that. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know how to be like a client comes in and be like, you just did that for them. I want that. We can't sell that to you.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_01That's sold.
SPEAKER_07You're not gonna be satisfied. Nah. You're gonna be blown away.
SPEAKER_01100%. You know, I want to challenge you. Like, if you got two deals and we doing the same thing on a deal that somebody else is doing, I want ours to look different. And so I'm gonna get it right with you, you know?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, man. I'm excited about the fact that someone's gonna watch this and it's gonna come across their feed. They're gonna be doom scrolling in the morning. And they're gonna be like, why is why is Talib interviewing a nigga who used to be on MTV at the red carpets? And they gonna be like, man, that nigga from the red carpets is smart.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that's why I I mean Team Epiphany, I started after that red carpet, bro.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, in case you don't know, Coltrane used to be on MTV hosting celebrities questions.
SPEAKER_01I used to host like House to Sty. It's a show called, uh I forgot, Overtime. It was like I was like, it was like uh it was like uh it was like house to stop.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah, I forgot too. There's some shit on MTV up there. What did Coltrain do?
SPEAKER_0190 minutes straight, I'll be live on the red carpet interviewing celebrities about clothes. And one thing people know about me is I'm fly. I'm fly with that shit. You know what I'm saying? So if I'm talking to you about this shit, know about what we're fucking talking about. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, and every year there'd be like four people that I can have a convo with about the shit on that carpet. It was a stylist. Yeah, right. So my whole point was I don't want to talk to you. I want to talk to the stylist. And so when I came out of that, Team Epiphany, influencing influencers, I don't want to talk to the celebrity, I want to talk to the stylist, I want to talk to the writer, I want to talk to the creative director. And so when you really look around it, like, you know, like when you really look at like the beginnings of Ye, right, look at his team. Don C. Virgil, Chris Julian, who owned a secondhand clothing store in Las Vegas called, I think it was Fruition. That was his dude. Jerry Lorenzo was on that team. Fawnsworth Bentley was on that team. Yeah. Right? So when you look at that team, who gonna beat that team?
SPEAKER_07You know what's crazy about you saying that is that I started People's Party with Jared Meyer from Rocky. 100%. And Uprocks, a shout out to that whole team, and I have nothing but great things to say about them. But you know, that podcast was very corporate. And the bottom line of People's Party was we need to get people watching the Uprocks YouTube channel.
SPEAKER_01That was the That was the kindling.
SPEAKER_07Right. For this, we come from an activist background.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Like we want, we don't, we don't wanna like work for free, but that's not the chasing the money, just like in your business, it's never about chasing viral. We're not out here chasing viral, we're not chasing clickbait, we're not trying to talk about whatever the hot trending topics is. We're definitely trying to be evergreen. But you know, it's it's crazy. It's crazy that you bring that up now because man, with with Kanye, I'm I'm gonna pivot a little bit because I I'm I'm gonna table that thought. Because now's the time that's popping in my head about Kanye. As a marketer, what feelings did you have about people? How would you what do you think people's was in people's minds when they went to that celebrities? When they went to that wireless show. Because a lot of celebrities got criticized for that. Do you agree with that criticism? Or what what's your thing? What do you mean the wireless show? The wireless show and not the wireless festival, excuse me, the so five show. And LA. Oh, okay, okay. Because the wireless show got canceled.
SPEAKER_06Okay, okay. Right? Okay. Like Kanye, Kanye doesn't Kanye. Okay, I got what you're saying.
SPEAKER_07Okay, I'm gonna frame it a little bit better. Yep. Kanye is very polarizing, said a lot of wild shit, had a song called Hell Hitler, which he then switched to made it a Christian song when he got some pushback for. I think that's important to note.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_07Um, because I went and looked to see if you could still get this Hail Hitler, so you can't.
SPEAKER_01Mispositioned.
SPEAKER_07Mispositioned, exactly right. He does apology. The apology was well written. I'm a fan of apology. I think an apology is the cornerstone of civilization. I when in debates with people and we're having a little conflict. I have often sent people like articles about the correct apology. Because I want to give the correct apology if I'm wrong, and I want people who have wronged me to give the correct apology. On paper, that apology is so good, I don't feel like he wrote it. You know what I'm saying? Right. It's too good. It's too good. It hits all the points. Um, people went to the so far concert. People were disappointed in some of these people.
SPEAKER_01That's some of the people went.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, what's your take on that?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I think people can't. So first, I would want to go and see it. I'm a I'm a gay fan, like, of course, right? I think we all are musically. Yeah, I'm saying, musically, right? Like, I want to see it, I want to see it, I wanted to see that globe, I want to see that that curtain drop, I want to see him standing on that shit. I want to see that shit. Um, risk versus reward. For me, perception and positioning, right? Like, I don't know. I could fuck up a lot of things by just pulling up, getting the wrong, like the cats that I would have been with, me personally, right? So it's not like the protect that's not like you can't just be in the back watching you. Nah, I'm not the guy that I'm the guy that might pop up and be like, oh, why is he standing next to such and such? And then you wind up on the joint, and then that impacts my business. That impacts the lives of the people that eat. So I have to be mindful with that. Um, you know, my wife isn't the biggest Yay fan, you know what I'm saying? Um, never really has been. Um, I have, you know, and um, but I believe in life there's certain things that you gotta eat and live with, and there's certain things that you can't apologize for. You can't work walk certain shit back with certain people. And so um, you know, you know, my wife is probably one of those people, right? Like she can, you can't unsee what you've seen. Yeah, just in and just even or just even with me personally, right? Like there's just some things that if you cross that line, I can't get over that, right? Like, I can't unsee what I've seen. And so I think for a lot of people, they don't believe in that. You know what I'm saying? They don't believe in, some people just don't believe you can course correct that type of behavior, right? Yeah. And I'm kind of like, you know, I do believe in people have mental breakdowns. I do believe in, you know, I do believe, I mean, not to get crazy with it, but you know, I I equate, you know, Ye losing his moms is like me losing my pops.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I would say what carried me through it, like my dad just had a heart attack one day. You know what I'm saying? Like, what? Oh shit. Like, now what?
SPEAKER_07Yeah's moms, the way that he lost his mom was crazy. Tragic and crazy and unexpected and script. Like, like one in a two. Unnecessary. Crazy, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So you wake up, you see that, right? But the difference is, is I think what pulled me through was my team, my network, my family, and that. And as you saw him going through that, the one thing part of his experience was that he was now keeping the people that needed to be next to him as distant as humanly possible, right? And so, like, I do believe that the breakdown we all saw was about to go down. You know what I'm saying? Because the dude that we knew and loved was like, oh, it was this guy, yo. It's like the music's popping. But like, you just saw it getting darker and darker and weirder and weirder, and his behavior just becoming manic and manic. And so, you know, we all saw the writing on the wall, right? But we couldn't cross-correct it because we weren't allowed to get close enough to it.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01And so, because of it, it was like, yo, bro, like, there's some things you can't do, you know what I'm saying? And expect, like, yo, you're not gonna, you're not gonna diss them and be invited back. Yeah. Like, it's not gonna happen.
SPEAKER_07You just unlocked the new chamber for me because I I was thinking there's like four reasons why someone who is a quote unquote celebrity has something to lose by being seen there, as opposed to someone who could just buy a ticket and go on with their life, yeah, why they would show up at that, right? Because I was invited not by Ye directly, but by other people in our circle to come. And I want to see the show too, but I'm gonna go. I was wondering if you went.
SPEAKER_00And I try I was actually wondering if you went. And I I was trying to be slick about it. Right. So I try to send you a soft text the night of the show, like, hey, quality.
SPEAKER_08You in L you in LA?
SPEAKER_01Nah, man. I was just like, yo, like, who wouldn't want to see that? Yeah, I mean, so you wouldn't want to see Lauren standing on the top of that joint getting busy.
SPEAKER_07So now Lauren, like, and to that point, like, because I had people in my life who were disappointed that Miss Hill was there. Right. And I had to really think about this. And I was like, I'm gonna break down the four reasons. You just added a fifth for me. Um, one, I have a friend. We have a mutual friend, Tiffany Lofton, Tiffany Dina Lofton. We were talking about it, and she was like, Why did they cancel the wireless festival? I'm like, uh, because the nigga made a song called Hell Hitler. She was like, he did what? She didn't know. Yeah. Now she's a she's a younger, she's younger than us.
SPEAKER_00A lot of people don't know.
SPEAKER_07She's black from LA. She's tapped in with the culture, but she didn't know about that. So if she didn't know he made a song called Hell Hitler, then it's safe to say that a lot of people may not know about a lot of the egregious shit he said or done. They may not know about White Lives Matter or whatever it is that he's done, all this stuff. I'm tapped, I'm online at the time. I'm not online as much anymore, but I'm online at the time. I'm a friend of his, so I'm more paying attention to it than I think the average person is. 100%. They don't know all the controversies, right? Then if they do know the controversies, they see the apologies. Oh, it looks like a good apology. Like he, you know, you know, those people fuck up. People are human. He fucked up, he apologized, they're willing to accept the apology. Or that's number two. Number three is they're apathetic. I'm not into it, I really don't care. I don't care what he has to say, it's none of my business. You know, I'm not, I'm not, they're apathetic to the point where they're not even paying attention. Number four, they agree with the nigga.
SPEAKER_06You know what I'm saying? Number four is like move on. Yes, they agree. Kanye's Kanye's right. That's that's number four, right?
SPEAKER_07Um, but number five, which you just alluded to is that you see someone like a Miss Hill or someone like some of the other people who I'm close to, they still see Kanye as someone, and because of his influence in the world, he's so iconic and his platform is so big. Um what he what he represents to the people is so important that they feel like we have an obligation to be a guide in light for him and be there for him.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that's a big soul, that's a big heart, that's a big human. Yeah, you know what I mean? Where you're willing to risk the shit you could lose to still be there to support cats. I mean, I I would I don't know if I could do it.
SPEAKER_07It's not just because he had my name in his mouth on some disrespectful shit, which I'm over and he's over, and we've talked about that, but I st I still like that's part of it for me. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01You know what it is? I just believe that if that was uh, you know, if that was Jared for me. Which Jared? Bleak. Bleak, right? Cobb. Uh Jared Cobb, right? I would be there for him.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_01100%. Yeah, okay, that's a good way to put it. Right? Like, it's just like you just ain't that close enough.
SPEAKER_07But what if, okay, I'm I'm gonna give you a caveat.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Same scenario. Yeah. But Jared goes on drink champs and be like, man, I never like Coltrane. He wears too many baseball hats, and I wish he would read himself to death.
SPEAKER_01Um, two parts. I would just tell you that me and Bleak's relationship is so tight and we've been through so much that I would still be like, I'd have to give him a couple and still support him.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Which is why I still have these conversations.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, 100%. You know what I'm saying? Like, you really just look at like, are you really tight? Like, and your friendships take hits.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know what I'm saying? Like, and it's about is that friendship is important enough for you to push through and to unsee some things that you've seen, right? Okay. It's just like, I'm just not tight enough.
SPEAKER_07I'm gonna give you another caveat. What if after he said I don't like Coltrain hats, he was like, hell Hitler?
SPEAKER_03Yo, now we just point Jared. Yo, Jared's gonna give me hell for this, yo. He's gonna be like, yo, he's gonna be like, I'm putting your friendship to the game. Yo, you want to hit it in the same sentence type shit.
SPEAKER_02Like, oh, that's my chat. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03Like, you ain't gotta answer that. We're talking about the good, buddy.
SPEAKER_00But man, shout out to Jared, man. Bleak De Niro. Yeah, man. Man, Tony. I would I'm gonna say this. I don't know Kanye on a personal level, and I kind of look at it as a music fan the same way I look at going to see Miss Hill. I don't know what the hell is about to happen, but I don't want to be the nigga that's watching the biopic. Talking about, I could have been there. I mean I mean.
SPEAKER_07Also, Miss Hill, as a speaking of position and a strategy, Miss Hill had both her sons performing, which I know for a fact was part of that negotiation. Oh, I'll pull up, but YG Marley getting on stage and a song. Right. Like she put her children and the, you know, Marley family children on a global stage, risk versus reward. Right. I think in her mind, I'm not, I can't speculate on Miss Hill, but if I'm Miss Hill and I'm thinking about going, well, that's a that's a reason to go. Right. Okay, like Kanye did apologize for some of the more egregious things he said and done. You have a choice whether to accept that apology or not, but whether she accepted the apology or not, she's looking at that. And here's an opportunity to, not even for her, but for the family to position the children.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, that's a I mean, yo, here's the deal, bro. I'm not walking into that one. Yeah, I'll work too hard to fuck up some shit on some dumb shit. I'll catch the YouTube job.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, Miss Sill, they put her, they locked her up. So what she got to lose. Yeah. Miss Sill's like, y'all, everything y'all wanted to do to me, I already did too. She would have the worst of it.
SPEAKER_01She's free. Yeah. She's free. You know what I'm saying? And I think we all cancel it. I think we all search for that type of freedom. I ain't that free yet. I ain't that free yet. I'm gonna be at the crib. I'm gonna be at the crib, yeah. I'm gonna be at the crib. I also want to hear the old music too. You know what I'm saying? That's kind of like where I'm at with it. Like, I want to hear the like I haven't really evolved into like the new shit. Because I'd be like, just in artists in general. You know what I'm saying? Like, I could still have like a CD play in the truck. Like, I like my old shit. I like it. I I I got, you know what I mean? I don't need the new shit. Surprisingly, he did a lot of the old joints. Yeah, that that was that was that was fun. You know what I'm saying? But like I'm excited to go see Hove at uh at Yankee Stadium. I'm gonna go three nights, and I'm also gonna catch him on stage Rareek at the picnic, right?
SPEAKER_07Did you check out that GQ interview?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I did.
SPEAKER_07You have any thoughts about it?
SPEAKER_01You know what's so funny? Um, what's the young brother that interviewed him? Um I don't know his name, but he did a great job.
SPEAKER_07I'm gonna, I'm gonna in terms of journalism and black journalism, that young man did a great job, and I don't know him, but for him to have done the GQ interview with Jay-Z, it means he's been putting his work.
SPEAKER_01Well, let's talk, let's talk about the GQ engine. Like, you know, you got Will Welch, who just left, who's a killer. You got Mark Anthony Green, Morehouse dude, St. Louis, killer. Crib, right? And I remember that I was trying to get something done um uh at GQ, and they were both right they were both like, yo, this kid has to write it. I forgot, I keep, brother. Let me tell you, if if you listen in, I I've I'm embarrassed myself by not knowing your name. Somebody Google it, the young people. But not by not knowing your name. Um, somebody get on a computer. But um he was prepared for the moment, and you can tell he wasn't cramming. Yeah. He's a real fan. He's a real fan. He's relaxed, but he's a he's a real intellectual. Yes. And he I like the way he was dressed for it too. I mean, he was ready for. But you're talking about.
SPEAKER_07He looked like how I used to dress when I was a teenager, which made me feel good. Can I be honest?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You ain't never caught Mark Anthony Green or Will Welch not dressed for the moment. You know what I'm saying? So, like, it's GQ, bro. You know what I'm saying? Frasier.
SPEAKER_07Fraser Tharp.
SPEAKER_01Fraser, Frasier. Um, I like that because I think we just saw the birth of another young superstar kid who did it differently. And so um I think he becomes another beacon of aspiration to the others. And um, you know, and those are those stories, and those are the the pedigree that I think we have to study and uplift. You know what I mean? Because to me, I just saw the birth of a yeah, it's a Jay story. It's about Frazier to me.
SPEAKER_07It's about the interview, and it's about the way they did it. And I'll say it like this. Before you and me used to travel a lot, and remember we used to have those portable DVD players? A hundred percent. We used to have portable DVD players that was just a machine that just played DVDs. It was it had a screen.
SPEAKER_04That was it.
SPEAKER_07Right, which seems like a dumb idea now, but it seemed like the cutting edge of technology. I remember me and Corey got stopped at Jamaica and they held us up for an hour and a half because they couldn't figure out what it was. What it was. They was like, why would you have this? Yeah, it was. They were like, and we had so many DVDs, they were like, y'all are bootlegging and selling DVDs illegally. It's like yo, bro, we just live on the road. No, I watch these. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? I watch movies, bro. But I used to have a book bag full of magazines. So I'd buy, you know, shout out to Complex and you know, uh Source and Vibe. But I didn't just buy those magazines. I bought every magazine on the travel and leisure. Gee, I bought every magazine. You were reading stuff. I read the whole, like I kept myself informed. Man, when's the last time you bought a magazine?
SPEAKER_01To read? Yeah, to read. Couldn't tell you.
SPEAKER_07All right, I could tell you the last time I bought a magazine.
SPEAKER_01Couldn't tell you.
SPEAKER_07It was three days ago.
SPEAKER_01Which one you bought? What was it?
SPEAKER_07I was at the airport at the Hudson News, and they had the GQ magazine with Jay-Z on the cover. The story by Fraser Thorpe. And I bought that magazine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's worth buying.
SPEAKER_07And I read it on the plane. And I read it because of that interview. So that's the power of that interview. It made me do something I ain't did in 20 years.
SPEAKER_01You know what? Message. We need to go buy a couple hundred of them during them on deck. You know what I'm saying? Like, like that's that, but that that's the power. And so going back to the marketing of it. Going back to the marketing of it, right? Like, what does that say to me, right? What that says to me is that this generation doesn't live in in physical and permanence. And so the things that I create as a positioning expert who sometimes markets, right? The work needs to be a physical output. Right? Like you're looking at a consumer who doesn't have printed photos, doesn't have books, doesn't have magazines, doesn't buy art, right? They don't, they don't want a house, they don't want a kid, they don't want a dog, they want to live like nomads. And so now we know the value of that life. And so the majority of our work that we create at Team Epiphany is to be permanent. And so you'll find a lot of the things that we do for some of our clients is actually create magazines and long format content that is printed and that can live on. And so we do it for Delta, we did it for spirit brands, right? Like, and why are we able to do it? My entire strategy team are published writers.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So those are the same people that like if they sell a concept in, those are the people that can potentially write your social media content. And if we're writing from Substack to kind of like, you know, um, I'm gonna say, you know, tweets, right? I know it doesn't exist anymore. That's how old I am, right? But like those are the same people who can write. So going back to and bringing and tying all together, it's the hard skills, it's the lack of permanence. And the reason why you love to buy that mag is because it grounded you. You know what I'm saying? Like that tactile experience of touching what you're reading, yeah, of reading, yeah, right. And, you know, I'm not a I couldn't tell you the last book books I've read, but I'm a sprinter, right? Like I read, I'm snapped, right? And so I think that's not the best either. I think being able to have the time and the discipline to sit and read and calm. And, you know, I when I look at Ellington Reed, it warms my heart because he can blow through pages, it'll take me hours to read. Yeah, but it puts him in kind of like you can see his breathing has changed and he's calm and he's present. You know what I'm saying? And so, uh, you know, he didn't get a phone, he's 14, he didn't get a phone until he graduated seventh grade. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and so it's because we want him to be present. And so um, I just think like this next gen and part of how we try to do our part is making sure that they have things that are permanent.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, man. Being present, being aspirational, and being inspirational. Ladies and gentlemen, it's coach Ray Curtis. Oh, yeah, this is wonderful interview. This is probably.
SPEAKER_00Let me ask you this. One of my favorite episodes, man. Thank you. Thank you for coming to the video. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_07We just started this, and uh, you have been integral to leveling us up in terms of the level of conversation.
SPEAKER_01I will do my role in helping amplify it.
SPEAKER_07And you're welcome here anytime. One a good thing about this, like, unlike people's party, man, you could just pull up, bro. Yeah, like whatever, whatever. You know what I'm saying? Like, just pull up and just hang out, and we can do this again.
SPEAKER_01Some of you need to get out there too. It's late in the day, we can smoke one, but now it's early. Yeah, man. No, no, I can't.
SPEAKER_07We can smoke for the we're about to do some of the more hip hop interviews. We can be smoking and drinking for the one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, no, no, no, no. I can't do that early in the morning. Maybe shut me down. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Thank you for having me, brother. Love you, man. Love you too. 100%.