Episode 20 - Aja Monet Featuring Aja Monet

Episode 20 - Aja Monet - Lemme Ask You This Podcast with Talib Kweli & Tef Poe

Shot and Edited By Chino Chase. Additional Filming By Aaron Ross Media Co.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

So y'all were talking about how y'all were the first kind of Okay, don't talk about this private conversation. No, no, no, don't talk first. No, let me let me get it down. No, don't be. Let me let me cook. Let me cook. Okay. Let me cook. So I walked in and y'all were talking about how y'all were among the first of this generation to be as active in terms of making a trip to some place, a place like Palestine. You mentioned Dream Hampton as somebody who went a generation before, but I say all that to say because I was watching a podcast that you did, and you were talking to someone who was giving the social media generation credit for a lot of the activism that we see. And you gently and politely pushed back on that. And you said, Well, you know, we have to make sure that all this activism we're doing, we stand on the shoulders of the people who came before us. And there was a lot of legacy work and groundwork and uh foundation work laid for us to even be able to do this level of activism. Yeah. And I thought that was a very important point for you to make making. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for having me. This is Aja Monet. Um I am Talib Kwali. This is Teppo. This is Let Me Ask You This. How are you doing, Aja Monet?

SPEAKER_04 1:33

I'm good, you know. I'm grateful. I'm grateful to be here with you all. Grateful to be alive.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Thank you for coming on our show. This is a burgeoning podcast that we just started.

SPEAKER_04 1:43

Yeah, I hear. I see. I'm excited and grateful to be able to be build with y'all and be with you guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

You know Tef Poe already. I ain't got to tell you about his legacy.

SPEAKER_04 1:55

Yeah, I know Tef. I haven't seen Tef in a very long time. Super long. So it's very good to see you. Um, a lot of things to catch up. But we were just saying that I mean, it's kind of surreal to be living through this moment where I met Tef in Palestine.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

So, you know, the origin story of our friendship or our knowing camaraderie is through um that work that we did to go and build solidarity and be a part of a delegation. So um yeah, and I think to your point, I was trying to make this the case that you know it's so interesting because I'm I'm sure even you felt this and like you said, people get older and so then we learn things and you know, ideas evolve and perspectives evolve um about the movement in general. But it's just so interesting to see how quick um in our lifetime so much has happened, so much has happened.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

So many people don't remember very critical things that at the time to us these were like the biggest incidents in the world. I sit next to the people on the plane and they like I never heard of Ferguson, I never heard of Mike Brown, I never heard of Trey Line, I don't know what the plan, like for a lot of people it got left in the capsule.

SPEAKER_04 3:21

Well, I think it was it's that, and then also there's like a been a huge attack on our narratives, right? Within like education systems. I think there was a time that like teachers and educators were trying to keep the young people uh you know abreast of what was going on in in a modern contemporary sense. But I think that's our work to do, you know, as sort as people who lived through moments that we organized to change and shift. Like our work is to document to archive, to tell the story. Um you know, I think Talib, you were very intentional with that, putting it in being a part of not just like showing up to things, but also putting it in the music and challenging other artists to do so. Um you know, but I think this is the this shows the the fickleness of the internet and of social media um that like it's constantly being updated and it's a fee that was predicted on. So there's no people don't have time to process what's happening. They're just kind of like sharing and posting and seeing how many likes they can get and keep it get the dopamine hit, keep it moving, you know. And then there's there's this assumption that making, which is what I wanted to talk to you about. There's this assumption that we had when we went to Palestine, not even assumption, it was the charge that making people more aware would change the conditions. The the idea that, like, remember, they were like, go home, tell people what you saw, post it up, advocate, get your government to stop doing this, etc. And so we came back with this like intensity about some of us more than others. Some people, I think, were so consumed by other things on a local level. But like, there was this intensity to come back with like, you know, a char to tell the stories of what we saw and to share and to post and to like, and then now it feels like people took that very minute element of what we were doing and ran with that part of it, not fully understanding the political, social, political, cultural, organizing and relationship building that came from that time.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

I mean, I I think you've always been very intentional about bringing that aspect I don't want to call it the word, but life into everything we do artistically. I've always noticed it about you. Like, even if things were spiraling too far in one direction, even if people didn't want to hear it, you would be the person to be like, yo, I object. You know what I'm saying? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

That's accurate.

SPEAKER_04 6:05

Hey guys, simmer down now.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Don't act like we don't know you now.

SPEAKER_04 6:10

Silver down now. I'm very loving.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Yes, you are. That's the whole point. This is all in the spirit of revolutionary love.

SPEAKER_04 6:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

The deepest kind.

SPEAKER_04 6:19

And I have a great sense of humor, Tap.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

We have we have had some great times. Yes. Insane laughs. Like, like, like gut plus.

SPEAKER_04 6:28

I think part of the thing that people don't realize is like the reason why Palestine to me is so it's so harsh of a tension is because we were young black people going into this with so much grief and like angst about what we were dealing back with back home, and believing that we were on a mission to do this work together. And then there was still like not enough opportunities for us to be together without the pressure of Americanness, a day to day of Americanness. And so going somewhere where your passport kind of becomes this cape that you could wear and have us sort of live in this liminal space together for a bit, um, it allowed for like real the germination of so much joy too, you know, which is really it's kind of sad to say, but I don't even think it's sad. I just think it's the complexity of the nature of being human, you know. Like while there's deep suffering and deep pain that you're experiencing bearing witness to, the humor is kind of what got us through it all.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:37

You know what I mean? People wouldn't know how funny it was.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Like, it was how funny it was, you know. I respect that that trip taught me a few things about myself. Like, ultimately, you just gotta be yourself. And sometimes, especially black men, we crystallize ourselves to try to be this thing that we really ain't in the name of other people's optics and perceptions and type shit. And the truth about me is I've discovered I'm not Malcolm X, I'm not Tupac, whatever. I'm none of the myself. So who I am is a very goofy person, a very silly person. You know what I'm saying? I'll find the humor in anything, you know what I'm saying? And I just gotta stay that way. Even on this show, we'll be talking about something serious, and I'll just be like, yo, that's crazy, that's hilarious. Like, we can't overtake ourselves so serious that we can't see put the real versions of ourselves out there to people. I don't like humor.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Yeah, yeah. Well, humor is is the root word of funny is fun. But you know, humor is deeper. Break it down. Yeah, humor, humor. I'm talking about the difference between fun and joy. Like, humor is like very joyous, right? It's like you have this poem, Black Joy. It's like it uh what the reason why we fight so hard is to be able to experience joy. We don't fight for the sake of the struggle. Yeah, we fight for the right to have joy and to be flawed, to uh, to be excellent and to be imperfect.

SPEAKER_04 9:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

You know, and and and even just now, you describe the American passport as a cape. And that's such a deep layered metaphor, even a bar, even a punchline. Like to borrow from comedy again, we say it's a punchline. Like, that's just you just did you come up with that on the spot? Or that's a thought you already had. No, it's just something they came up for the spot. Yeah, like like it's it's beautiful. Um that it's it's beautiful that you are someone who has been very intentional about making sure that the art is recognized as of a big part of the movement. Even on your new album, your poem about Sonia Sanchez. You talk about showing up to the revolutionary jump off with a poem. And they'd be like, Wait, I I just got you just got poems, that's all you got. But that's but it's it's so needed.

SPEAKER_04 9:57

Yeah. Thank you for that. I think like, well, there's a new record coming, which I haven't told you. There's another one coming in May that's um produced by Michelle and Deggio Cello. Nice and Justin Brown and myself. So I'm really excited about that. And there's gonna be a little bit more experimentation, exploration. But the last record, I think it was, I mean, Tef, you've known me in the movement's essence and in sort of the support of other people in the spotlight. And so I think for many years I just believed that like I was gonna always be the person that was like lifting up other people doing their work. And I felt I felt okay with that. I was like, as long as I have my, you know, I have have the ear of the people that are gonna shift culture, then I feel like that's enough of a role to play. Um, and then it started to become more and more clear to me that like, wait, I was raised by some of the greatest revolutionary poets. Not just like, that's not just like rhetorical. Yeah, no, that's your actual lineage. The actual. That's like not in the abstract. Really the the the air and the environment that I was in. And not just, you know, uh literal poets, but even MCs that cultive that were cultivated in the poetry space. Um, and they all seemed to me to be the people who were politicizing me, were making me aware of what was going on and where we could talk about what was going on, as well as like address it, even as we were flawed. So I feel like, you know, growing up in a in that culture, you kind of have this um accountability continuum in your, in your, in your ethos and in your in your body. And so even when I went to Florida and I was like in community with, you know, an organization that I believed was really at the precipice of changing the country, um, I was just like, how do y'all not know about The Last Poets? Like, how do y'all not know about Amiri Baraka? How do y'all not know about Sonia Sanchez? These are, they weren't just like, you know, accessories to the movement. They were integral, they were strategizing and thinking through these, they were doing workshops in their homes. The CIA was like attacking and created a whole entire master's program, creative writing program to counter the collectivism that was built and the social, you know, connectivity that was built through these arts and cultural movements. So, you know, when you see what's happening with Watts Prophets and the Watts Cafe, and you see Obasi in Chicago, and then you learn about, you know, um the things that Amir was doing in Newark and Last Poets in Harlem, like these were burgeoning uh revolutionaries, but they were building movements and cultivating a revolutionary class consciousness that was politicizing the public, and that was their intention, that was their goal, you know?

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:55

So right now it's so funny to see that there's so many more organizations that have popped up with like this arts and social justice and you know, artists against apartheid, like all these things are great, they're exciting. But I remember at the time it's still being tense in discussions with still.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

I vividly remember that. Because people were saying, like, basically, for real, for real, if we being honest, and you know I'm always trying to keep it historically accurate. Folks were saying people like me and you were a bit out of pocket for being artists and standing on a certain level of revolutionary business. Like, I vividly remember it wasn't an easy walk.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

No. When you call yourself a surreal, surrealist blues poet, I think that descriptor encapsulates a lot of what you were just talking about.

SPEAKER_04 13:44

I think it was my attempt to.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_04 13:46

Because I think when I said poet, people that were part of our culture and our move and our movement didn't really understand what that meant. They had a very like archetype idea, caricature, really. Um, people within like elitist academic spaces didn't understand what we're doing, what black people do with their language. I mean, you were raised by, you know, a mother who's a poet essentially. And um, I think it's so important that our people learn what we're doing in the language. Like these things are technical. I mean, some of the th things that people take for granted because we have the gift of gab or because we speak a certain way, they think that it's not, there's no skill, there's no study, there's no mastery of craft, and there's no development of the language or the pushing of the language, just like with jazz. I think people hear like improvisation of live music and they don't actually study what is happening in the music. So it just all sounds like gibberish, and they don't actually realize who's evolving the language, who's pushing it forward, who's taking it versus who's just, you know, a derivative, who's just like, you know, copying something they heard. And I think that that's important for us to be studying. We used to read more. We used to be, or that was at least encouraged and instilled in the cult in the culture a bit more, especially within a certain time period. So I don't know. I would say every generation goes through their struggle, their phases, it kind of ebbs and flows. I'm sure you would say so too, because people called you guys like conscious rap versus mainstream rap or regular rap, right? But that was always an ethos that people subscribe to and live by just because it wasn't being sold by the companies. You know, doesn't mean that that culture wasn't the undercurrent of how we breathe and live. I think it's when people find something out and it's new for them, they act brand new and then they want to like try to teach you about something you already know, you know. Right? And that's kind of the name of the game now, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Yeah, you spoke about your time in Miami and um smoke signals with the studio is such a great concept and great work that y'all are trying to do. One of the turning points in me kind of getting back into movement work, and I spoke about this on the show, was going to visit Harry Belafonte, and he was like, go see the Dream Defenders, and that's they're doing the real important work. And this was in 2013 around Trayvon Martin. And I went to Tallahassee to the building where they were had taken over the state capitol, and I spent the night with them, me and my son and Mani. And one of the moments of joy was we all got together and listened to, they were listening to terrorist threats by Ab Sol. And I was familiar with Ab Sol, but I'm not, they're younger than me. They were a college age at that point. So I wasn't tapped in with how much Ab Sol and his music was touching the people. So it's interesting to hear y'all talk about not feeling like the art was seen, but also for me to be in the moment and see how much the art was helping the movement.

SPEAKER_04 16:52

Well, yeah, you could speak to this too, but I think Dream Defenders was very pivotal in pushing that first in our generation. Because I think they and I think that they actually culturally like were looked down upon because they were so like tapped in and flying, trying to put people on with nice, like with dope, you know, poignant slogans and phrases and and and leaning on cultural relevant. They were politicizing stuff that was like the zeitgeist of the pop culture mainstream. Like if there was a, I don't want to name brand any artists, but if there was a popular artist that black people were listening to, they would take this, flip the song title or a phrase from the song and put it in a way that politicized it for young people.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

That dead press mixtape when they was rhyming over Aliyah and on them thing. Like it's that type of energy.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

Yeah, I would say that what Dream Defenders was doing was creating sort of a political, you know, movement mix, uh, a mixtape of movement, you know, though, but literally move, how you move meant like creating meaning out of the how you move, you know, and and deciphering meaning out of some of the things that people took for granted or thought was just like turn up or was just, you know, um garbage to ingest. I think Dream Defenders was really, and to the point where they at one point were proud of that. I think it became something that catapulted them and so much support. And then I think as they started to, because we were all stumbling, you know, people were stumbling into figuring this out. These these weren't people that set out to be like, I'm the NGO class wasn't what it is, you know. It wasn't people that are like, I'm gonna become the head of an organization and be an ED and figure out budgets and hire people. Like they were young people that were just enraged by the state of our country and what was being allowed, and they wanted to do something about it. And I think as they were fumbling into figuring it out, they got catapulted into support by people from across the national support. And then there were other organizations that I think they were trying to find their footing with, and some of them welcomed them with open arms, and some of them had shade for them, and some of them, you know, they were they were from the South too. So that's a whole other thing. Not having the ability to be rubbing elbows with certain people at certain functions, and you know, learning how to advocate for your organization from from a place where people don't typically go outside of at least from Miami, they don't go there but to party and bullshit. They don't really see the undercurrent of the people that live in that.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:36

So, yeah, I think like I'll say that Dream Infernance was one of the few organizations that I saw coming up that was seeing the the power of our culture and then started to internally struggle with that because they wanted to be taken seriously as an organization that was really bringing movement and change into actual material conditions shifting. So there was times where people were like, we're not doing enough of the other stuff. You know, we need to be focused more on canvassing. We need to be focused more on this action or this policy or that, you know. And I think I think there was an opportunity for us, and there still is an opportunity for us to see the cultural piece as more than just an accessory, but actually really like how you alter the way you see things. I don't know how you feel about it.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

No, I completely agree. Um I think it's a layered subject because you gotta have politics in there, but the culture should be the politics. You know what I'm saying? Like what you are defining as culture should be the politics. So, like I was telling Aaron earlier, I make conscious music in theory, but every time I'm going to the booth, I'm not purposely going in there to create a song that you can classify as conscious. I'm really just making music. And through who I am, it's gonna be DNA, the DNA of what I believe is gonna be in my lyrics, the type of beats I pick, etc. So if you're being real as a black person living through this madness, and you're an artist, it shouldn't be this grand fallacy of a concept that putting stuff that matters in your art and your music is such a drastic reach to people. I just I don't understand that.

SPEAKER_04 21:21

Yeah, it's the air you breathe that kind of bleeds through everything that you create. I mean, I'm sure it's the same for you, Talib. Like you're just you know, you were making music, and the music reflected what you what you were living, you know, the streets you were what you talked about, bookstore, you talked about you know, you was walking through the city feeling Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

And from at that time, in order to be instilled to this day, I mean, part of the whole Kendrick versus Drake thing, people, the the the culture put Kendr Kendrick on top, not because Drake is not a talented artist, but because in the way he was coming at Drake, he was leaning into Certain cultural aspects, I think. And he was saying, hey, you know, you're a colonizer. You're not really part of, you're not like us. And to me, that's kind of like I'm a romantic about hip hop. I thought we were supposed to be having messages in our music. I thought the consciousness, and the best MCs of my day, Rock Him, Keris One, Chuck D, you didn't get to, even Ice Cube, you didn't get to be called the best until you had that level of consciousness in music. So it was definitely something, and then I came up when a time of hip-hop when Spike Lee was making the Malcolm X movie, and you had X, but you had these buttons you have when you're noticeing your pretty buttons. Like I used to have a lot of buttons, a lot of pins, a lot of medallions. It was part of the swag, part of the flyness to be conscious. So that sort of uh married itself to what was happening in my home. That my parents are educators, and my mother was all those things I was getting in hip-hop that was making me feel cool. I was, I already had the foundation in my home.

SPEAKER_04 23:02

Yeah, I feel like that's how, like, there's this whole discussion about Earl versus J. Peg Mafia and that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

And I was like, we Yeah. We, me, Yasseen, and Track Star, we're talking about that in the studio for like an hour.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

I wish I was there for that, man. I wanted, I just want to say, man, and you know what? I wasn't gonna talk about this because I didn't think it was gonna come up, but this guy, J. Peg Mafia, is a fucking weirdo, man. That's what we talked about. He's a weirdo. Listen, this guy, I had this guy on my show on people.

SPEAKER_04 23:31

I just wanted to say before you get into the girl being raised by an academic mother having a father that was, like, which is something that JPEG was trying to like throw at him. But it's like his father was like a full-on South African revolutionary who inspired the the last poets title of their name. They would not have the name if it weren't for his father, um, Kiora Petsi Kikatsile, who is also known as uh um bra Willy. And Pops from Last Poets always talks to, you know, he brings him up. So I say that to say, like, what did you think would come of a young person like him, if not, you know, someone who is just gonna look at the world differently, you know, have another entry point to how to examine the conditions in the world that we're living in. Of course, silly and strange and obscure and surreal and all types of other ways, um, and have to stumble through LA and the beast that is LA that can put you in one arena versus another arena. Um, but the choice and the decision to have to raise a person that has some sort of self-determination and ability to discern within themselves what who they are, to make a decision for themselves. That's a very hard thing to do for any black mother parent person of any child. But then for them to become an artist and a and a, you know, somebody that other people look into and listen to, it even becomes more, I think you become more precious about that because you know what's at stake.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Yeah, and that's if you have a parent like that, which I I do, I have two parents like that, that's a privilege. A lot of people don't have. Speaking of, yeah. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people don't have it. And I don't, you know, and so, you know, with someone like J. Peg Mafia, who I have my own little issues with, I have to give grace to him. His critique of that is coming from, it seems to me, a place of hurt and a place of just trying to trying to uh navigate privilege or lack of privilege. Yeah. Um, I had him, I had J Peg Mafia on my podcast. I had never heard of him. Uh, Uprocks people, they said we should get J Peg Mafia. And Yasseen Bey was such a huge fan of his that I was like, let me have him on my podcast. And he got super drunk on the podcast. He threw up like three times on the podcast. And I'm not telling no secrets because we aired the episode at his insistence. Because the episode was so wild. I was like, we're not airing this. I'm not trying to embarrass this young man. He was like, No, no, no, this is real. This is how I really am. You know what I'm saying? I was like, okay. So it came out. And then uh I saw, I mean, I guess he's Kanye's engineer. And about a couple of years ago, after Kanye had made all those comments about my baseball hats and all this stuff, I ran into Kanye at a bar and we chopped it up, and he was like, Come to the studio, we're gonna talk, because it wasn't the right place to add a conversation. He said, Come to the studio next day. Went to the studio and I saw JPEG Mafia in that hallway. But he looked different than how I remembered him from the podcast. He was thinner, his style was different. Like he has gone through some style transitions. I was like, that looked like JPEG Mafia, but he didn't say nothing to me. So I was like, maybe that wasn't him. Kanye's like, yeah, I work with JPEG Mafia, and he came in the room. I was like, that was you in the hallway. He was like, yeah, I was like, how come you didn't speak? He was like, I didn't think you would recognize me. And I was like, yo, you threw up on a podcast three times. I remember you, bro. And I gave him like love. I was like, yo, that was so like artistic for you to make the choice to this. And you know, I gave him some love, and then a couple of days later, you know how you see someone and the algorithm pulls a video of them into your feed? Just a video of him saying, Yeah, I went on Quali's podcast. I threw up three times. I was embarrassed by that, but he's a weirdo, so fuck that guy. And I was like, that's why he didn't speak to me when he saw me in the hallway. Because he talked about you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:17

Yeah, it's so funny when people are weird with you because you can, like, you could tell that they were talking shit about you at some point. Like you walk into the room and they're just like, and you're like, oh, hey, what's up? And they're just like, can't face you, and it's because of the guilt of what it whatever they said or didn't say about you when other people are talking shit. So I think it's like, for me, I don't know enough. I don't know this music, I don't know nothing about anything. All I do know is I do know Earl. I think he's an incredible MC. Um, I think he's grown a lot. I think he's still developing and growing. And I think a lot of this stuff is deeply spiritual.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 27:55

You know what I mean? I don't know he who should not be named, or many people I don't like to name, because then it does things in the universe. Um, but I've seen who you said was he was engineering for several times, and I've been in spaces where energetically it's felt very dark, you know. I don't even like to say dark because dark is beautiful, but it felt not um not of good, you know, positivity. Let me say. Did not feel the movement was of positivity, and it feels like a very vampiric, like a lot of the people that he has around him and a lot of the people that um spend time with him shift to become more vampiric. Like I've seen there be this sort of normalization of that sort of energy, and that's my biggest critique of some of the black men that have supported these men that have done really damage to our communities by way of words, but also by way of actions. And I'm like, this is not a game. We're not playing with these are people's lives we're we're talking about, you know, that it has real implications. Um, this brother has made intentional allegiances to people that are continually harming our communities and intentionally saying so. So I don't trust nobody that's around trying to make excuses for, you know what I mean? That's just who is your people's says a lot to me. Who you who you side with and who you build allegiances with. That says enough. You know, there are some people that are worthy of compassion and we struggle with and we we grapple with, but I think some other folks have been given a lot more grace than they deserve.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Heard I struggle with, as a person who has kind of set my life up in a very intentional way regarding platform, regarding uh so-called fame, regarding access to certain stuff. I struggle with people mocking folks, wanting to be more revolutionary-minded, wanting to be more conscious-minded, wanting to do better for themselves in the community, especially when it comes to black men. I struggle with not dropping the full might of the gauntlet on people like that. Because it's like, what you mean? Like, like, like I know people who really ain't got lights. I know people who really been sleeping outside for over a year. We had a E6 tornado tear through the black part of the community. Black people don't care about environmental justice, and now we're dealing with it, and a racist administration that says that science ain't real. So then it's enough to have to deal with that and the fascist content of it, the fascist order of it, and deal with idiots that don't even realize what's happening to us.

SPEAKER_04 30:51

Yeah. Like, you mean I gotta fight them and you or want to deny that it's even happening. Like, want to tell you, like, you could literally be having your face being punched, and they're like, nobody's punching you.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:02

And you like you with a busted lip talking about nobody punched you, you did that to yourself. To me, that's the part that's really like the audacity, you know? Yes. But that's patriarchy at its finest, you know what I mean? And that's men, you know, and black men just the worst of them just really want to be white men. You know? So it's really like it takes radical like love and acceptance to get to a place where you just dissect what in you aches, what in you hurts, what in you greases, what in you is carrying and perpetuating that hurt that harm. And what do you choose like willfully to heal? Who in you, like who around you is is supporting that process and holding you accountable in it, but like with love and grace. And it's sad that I really feel for brothers, man, because the lack of love for each other is really crazy, sad, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 31:56

It's ferocious. Um well, that's why I really appreciate the brothers that I am around, brothers like Tef Poe, brothers like Yasseen Bey, brothers like Vic Mensa, who was we were with last night. And this guy is such a special guy. Yeah, I love Vic. Um, he's so important to the culture. To watch his transformation, and I'll I'll call it that because that's what it looked like from my perspective, from an artist who was really trying to make it in the music business. And he had always mainstream big looks, but it was always something inside of him that I felt like just as an outsider looking in, that a lot of that, a lot of that industry stuff didn't really sit right with his spirit. He was tormented for sure. Yeah, it looked like it from the outside.

SPEAKER_04 32:34

As someone that saw him was a part of his journey from the very beginning, if not before. Um, and has been in a deep relationship with him throughout the time as like a little brother, you know. I feel like it's been hard. It was at a point really hard to watch, you know. There are things that we've we've had to talk about and come to terms with in our friendship that like, you know, it was hard for him to hear, you know. But he always he always listened and would and would hold space for what I had to say. But I think I was one of the few people that was being most honest and most loving and caring. And it took a lot to get to this point. But, you know, my God, what a beautiful thing it is to see that journey and that transformation. And for him to continually commit to that journey and that transformation, it takes. I'm grateful he's still alive to see it because there was a time where I was having to make calls terrified that he would not live to see what we currently are bearing witness to, you know.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

It's special for me to see it because uh how you just described your relationship with him, I feel the same thing about our friendship. And that we're able to have these type of conversations. Um, we both follow uh Vic. We were talking to Vic last night about his Substack and his half African stuff, African stuff, and uh his trip to Cuba. And you have Cuban roots, and Cuba's been in the news lately. So I wanted to give you an opportunity to speak on some of the more recent developments with these blockades and these sanctions and what's been going on in Cuba.

SPEAKER_04 34:12

Yeah, I mean, it's so funny because I was mad when Vic told me he was going, because I was like, bruh, I told you I'm gonna bring you there for the first time. And then, and that was a whole other thing, right? That like these organizations, um, some of these organizations now are very much looking for the virality of visibility in order to gain momentum around what they want to bring attention to. Which in some ways has has a has a positive effect to some extent, but I think the the long term is really negative because it's not really focused on building deep relational, you know, um political education and resilience and self-determination. And so, like when he told me he was going, the first thing I said was like, who's bringing you? You know, like what so what's the what's the deal? Who's the organization? What do they do? Have they been there? And at first he didn't really know. So he knew some extent, but he was kind of like Vic's the kind of person where when he cares about things and somebody wants him to be involved, he's gonna do his best to show up.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

So And for revolutionaries or people who have that revolutionary spirit of mind, and Cuba holds a very special place because he's never been there before. Yeah. My mom was gonna go on on that same same trip, but it was not go.

SPEAKER_04 35:35

Yeah, it was interesting to me, one, how he got invited and I hadn't heard about it, and I've been in this work for way longer than him. So that was interesting. And and then it was interesting that they were there wasn't proper to me um training of people before they left. Which you know, before we went to Palestine, we had training.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Mock simulations of every scenario.

SPEAKER_04 35:58

Of every scenario, you had questions, you had a team helping you with how you deal with things as you come in. So that let me know that there's a very different landscape we're in and within the movement in just a few years.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

I do feel you.

SPEAKER_04 36:11

And so, you know, there's things that, and because he doesn't know, because he's just coming into it, because he's people see him as a voice and they see him say these things on our lot of these things we've talked about or argued through, and he does an essay about it and does, you know, a whole thing. And then people think that you are a Malcolm, you know, they think you are the person that is professing these things. So surely you could have come and be a representative for this cause or this issue. And for me, I just was like, as someone that loves them and as a mentor, I was like, this is irresponsible. You know, I I would never put you in this position. So I say all that to say, I think it was beautiful that the trip happened. Um, I think it was important. And I think that it's very complicated because that was part of what I was trying to tell him that I have friends, close friends, and people that are blood related who live in the country, and they see the current administration just as evil, as corrupt as a Trump.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:15

But they see it as a leftist Trump. Yes. They talk about it from the perspective of like the extreme, you know, that it's it's and so because we are so self-righteous sometimes in our ideas and our rhetoric that we don't really understand the manifestation of what a revolution requires, what it demands, and what it does to the people. Yes. Um, especially the people that are still living living under those conditions. So, yes, the blockade is is horrible, and what's happening to the blockade is horrible. But even more so, the lack of autonomy for the people is is is equally horrible. And it feels weird that we feel entitled to go there with the privilege of our passports and to make claims about what we think is right or wrong when the people can't.

unknown 38:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:04

You know, that just feels, to me, hypocritical. And there has to be, there has to be a clear understanding of what it means when we go somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:16

You know what I mean? You don't just go somewhere and be voyeuristic and let me go see what's going on, which a lot of people have because some people just have a very um exotic curiosity about Cuba, especially people who've been studying revolutionary books and language and and history for so long that they don't actually understand what it entails. You know? Um, my one of my friends, when Vic went went, I told him, I said, Hey, if you can come see this guy that's there, he's really he's a really important person to me. He did a lot of great work when I went there. Um and when he went, you know, one of the first things he said to me was he texted me, said, Sister, you don't know how important this is for me to have a project, you know, to have something to look forward to that he's coming and I get to see him, you know, and talk to these people and see what's going on. Because when your day is Groundhog's Day and nobody hears you and nobody cares about you, you know what I mean? There is this sort of tension about that reality. So for me, I try not to, I haven't said a lot publicly because I'm writing.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:25

And there's things I'm writing that will eventually get to that to the public. But I don't know how you feel. There's a lot of stuff that has come to pass in public.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

I feel a huge way about it, a lot of stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 39:36

Yeah, it's come to public, and it's like, it's kind of like if you didn't write something or you're not in the street.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

I'm not pump faking like I live there, I'm not acting like I live there. When Taliel Kwali texts me, I get off a couch in Ferguson, Missouri, five minutes from Canfield, and then I go to the airport and fly there from that place. I I drive through where Mike Brown was murdered at, and it is completely a ghost town now. It is abandoned, it's hard for people to live there. It looks nothing like it looked pre-the-prising. People still contact me about Ferguson-related stuff as if the narrative hasn't moved forward in 12 years. So they're still stuck at like quite frankly, I'm gonna say it on camera. Don't call me trying to talk about Patrice Colors, don't call me trying to talk about Opal. Don't call me trying to talk about Alicia Garza. Don't call me trying to talk about these uh Fox News conspiracy theories. Even as a leftist, you got people that are supposed to be leftists that call still are calling us to do these Ferguson stories that got nothing to do with the everyday tangible reality of what I'm actually seeing on the ground. I don't care about none of that stuff. I got young kids hopping out, still shooting at the police, getting shot while I'm getting my hair cut at the barbershop. I got helicopters going over the community, people still being harassed. Israeli level surveillance implemented into the community. Yeah. Nobody owns any of the land there.

SPEAKER_04 41:02

Well, I think, can I say something that's really good that you brought that up? I think that I don't know about the stuff you're talking about with conspiracies and all this. But we did have a lot of these talks at the time. And one of the things that has yet to reckon with this current moment that we're in is like what the cost of some of the decisions that leadership or people within organizations made in those earlier years of that movement, what the cost of it has has done to where we are now. And there has been yet to be a real honest confrontation and analysis of that because people are still carrying those wounds.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:40

People are still carrying the damage of some of those decisions. And while people were talking about certain things politically, they were still driving Teslas and wearing and having fancy and living in fancy places and doing fancy things, which is fine. I'm not knocking people, I want everybody to live good. You know, I want everybody to live good. I think what's what's unfortunate is that when we live good, especially when we take on the leadership within a movement that was garnered around Black Death. Right. And the resources and the visibility that was garnered around that was from Black Death. Yes. And for me, there is an obligation to be honest with the public, especially the black people within our community that are seeking justice, seeking accountability, and are seeking support and infrastructure for that. So to me, when I look at now, one of the frustrations that I have is like, why haven't we had any, there's no movement for Black Lives Library, no clinics, no legal services. I mean, brick and mortars.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

I don't disagree with anything.

SPEAKER_04 42:47

No uh post offices, no grocery stores that we own. Look at what this mayor's trying to do with the budget that he has within New York City to make free groceries, to make, you know, uh, you know, kids have access to free health care. I think when we look back and we do a real assessment and a DNA of our movement, we have to think about what did we win?

SPEAKER_01 43:12

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 43:12

What and when I say win, let's not even talk about a win or lose situation. What did we effectively move forward that changed the conditions for the better of black people in this country? And how do we measure that? Not for individuals, not for certain awards and for certain classes, what things that we have to be accountable to? And I say all of us, every single one of us, that we have to look at back and be honest about. It's okay.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:39

Some of us didn't know what we were doing. Some of us got into shit. We knew we were doing, and we did it. We were selfish and did it anyway. You know, but say that.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:49

I think the part of it is like we have yet to see, black people have yet to see accountability with each other in a loving way that lets us be vulnerable. And say, you know what? I fucked up. I got caught up in this. Because some of that was intentional. People were sent to do that with us. You know what I mean? A lot of that was strategic. Even when we look back at what happened in Florida, and I look at what happened with smoke signals, certain things, like I still feel away.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_04 44:21

There's still so many things that I question and I'm like, damn, that we we we didn't take seriously. Letters from the FBI, people showing up, weird things happen, all type.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

All that shit that we experienced that ain't in no books, ain't in no movies, ain't in no we came home from Palestine for one. For me, my life was never gonna be the same.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Never.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

I did the wildest shit you could do after doing that trip. You supposed to sit your ass down. I ended up going to London, meeting with Julian Assange, having a private meeting with this maniac, filling him out. I was just all the enemies of America, so to speak. I was seeing.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

You know how we talk about that meeting off camera at some point. I didn't know that one. Yeah, I'm just I'm guaranteed I'm probably.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

I got a lot of wild shit I can share with you about that. But uh what you're saying is so real. And what I'm what I was saying wasn't in the name of lacking accountability, because even more so, like the reason I live in my community still is because it's kind of like Bob Marley being having to come back to the rock, whether he wants to or not. And so I still gotta see my mama living in a certain way. I still gotta interface with my nephews and their possible future challenges in a certain way. And so for me, I lived with blinders on due to the movement, due to music. For years, I felt like I had a vision of the world, and I just wanted to escape that world as much as I could while helping other people escape it. Now I'm able to, I don't have a national organizing aspiration like that. I think that the work I do in my everyday life, uh, it's just me touching people who are gonna go do things. Or really, kind of how we interviewed Clink Johnson. I'm into the whole Black Jesus thing. I'm into uh the single moms knowing, like, yo, we ain't got no food on this particular day of the week. Those dudes is always feeding people, gonna feed us. You know what I'm saying? We can let the kids run around. That means more to me. Yeah. Developing a track record of that for 20 years means more to me than uh did I spark the ideology that unearths white supremacy off the planet. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 46:38

A practical application of what we do in the.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

And through that, people get to approach me and say, yo, this is where you fucked up. You know, that's periods of time where people ain't fucking with me at home. You know what I mean? Like, that's a real human discourse where I'm like, damn, okay.

SPEAKER_04 46:54

Yeah, it gets messy.

SPEAKER_00 46:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:55

You know, that's how you know you've really been in community, though, because it gets messy and you have to really deal with that mess. You know, but I think to be intentional about sticking through that mess. I think the other part is a lot of these people that ended up becoming catapults into leadership positions around movement were like not people that grew up in predominantly like black hood.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 47:18

You know, like struggling communities. There's a lot of people were some people, let's say some people were people that like went to school with all white people or like, you know what I mean, didn't have maybe a strong cultural connection. There's just different degrees and layers because just because somebody's black doesn't mean we all have the same upbringing or consciousness around that upbringing and political orientation of that upbringing. So there was a lot of work for us to do as black people to understand the diversity of us. You know, that the one thing that connected us wasn't just our issues with the police. You know, there's a lot more that we have to learn about each other than how fucked up this cup this country is being to us. You know, there's so much more for us to discover. There's so much more for us to love. And we were pushing for that. We were pushing, I think that's what art does, and that's the possibility of it, is that it's really our prayer, it's our spiritual, you know, um harvesting. It's like the it's the ability to, or cultivation, it's how we pour into each other, it's how we um pray, it's how we imagine, it's how we, you know, envision, it's how we nurture, nourish each other. And so, like, don't take that for granted. That's why we never took smoke signals for granted. The organization might not have understood it, but every time we left doing that, I promise you, people came back. You know, and it wasn't like just what we're fighting against, right? It was like, oh, I'm fighting with these people. These people I love. I'm willing to go through to bat for this person because I loved. Like I had a different relationship with you and Tara and everybody else because I feel like it still sticks so hard. You know, we left with like, even Mark Lamar Hill, like is, you know, bless his heart how much he's changed and how much he's been through. He on pockets doing all this stuff. I know. I'm like, Mark, I still know you, Mark. That's my dog still.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Shout out to Mark.

SPEAKER_04 49:11

Still know you.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

Mark, you got a home here as well, Mark. I'm falling asleep and those congregations and these convoys or fellowships, whatever you want to call them, just spaces where impractical people can come together like that, they're important because I know Mark Lamont Hill through that trip. It ain't like we talk every day. It ain't like, you know, we we don't talk hardly ever, if maybe once a year if we do talk. But I know through seeing going through that experience with him and being face-to-face with the IDF, catching a plane with the man, sitting on the buses with the man every day, going through checkpoints with the man, hearing some of the things he said about his personal convictions when nobody was really looking. I could look at him on television and know who I'm looking at. That's right. And so I think something that happens all too often, and I see it a lot of times amongst black men, and this is why I think is what I was saying is even more important. Six points ago, like I sent Talib a uh screenshot of a conversation that was happening between somebody we all know and another local activist. And the conversation was just rooted in negativity, in my opinion. And I'm like, why are we always the people who trying to change shit, starting it at a negative point? And then what you're gonna do with this young man is you're gonna put him on the internet to say all this negative bullshit, even if it is righteous within an intent, you're gonna put him out there to say all this negative shit and then turn the TV off. Go back to your regular life, you got your college degrees. You know what I mean? You you're gonna have a way forward. But after he burns down the village, he's trapped. Nobody's gonna call him for no jobs, nobody wanna book him for shit. He just blamed, he just flamed everybody else out.

SPEAKER_04 51:00

I think social media has not, this current generation has not learned some of the things that we take for granted, having grown up with community and in a physical way, right? Because you had to face people. There's a difference of having to like deal with gestures and like recognizing it's a human that's gonna be impacted. We are talking about a generation of people that are disassociating and the normalization of that disassociation. So, like, to me, there's plenty of issues I have with people. So many issues. That's right. And I'll talk my shit with my friends, people I I love, and we could we could sit and talk about it. But fundamentally, I don't wish them no harm.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 51:40

I just politically disagree with you.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

I disagree with how you- strategy, tactics, all types of things.

SPEAKER_04 51:44

Yes, I might disagree with the way you move, I might disagree with the way you you handle certain things, but like I don't wish you no harm. I'm not sitting around talking about thinking about you all day. I literally just have a specific issue.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

I feel like people, you should be protected, right? So us putting you in a position where just because we know you will go off, don't mean we set it up for you to go off.

SPEAKER_04 52:06

That's that's so, but I think we're at a time. What I'm saying is that this is the part that I have to remember. Like, there are meta glasses. You know what I mean? Those glasses look just like yours, and somebody sitting there and you think you're having a real conversation, you think it's private. You think it's something that you guys are struggling with and thinking through. Like sometimes I have to remember, I'm like, these people don't, they're not to be trust. I can't trust everybody. That's right. We're in a time where trust is so fickle, you know, the ability to understand that what is being shared is between the people who are sharing it. And then we can decide how we want to share with other people based on our ability to do so, not somebody taking it and doing it for us.

SPEAKER_03 52:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 52:47

But this day and age, I think it's just really scary for all of us to think about because the attention economy is real.

SPEAKER_02 52:55

The attention economy.

SPEAKER_04 52:56

And there's a lot of people who are benefiting off of that attention economy. And so what we're talking about is like, you know, Meta and all these guys, they just got sued. The movement's not talking about it. And people still posting on social media and doing all these things. But we're talking about they're getting sued for the negative impact on children's minds, and we can look at it. There is proof. There are there's cases, case studies, there are people that we can reference to, but we still are giving people influencer awards. We're still showing up to places talking about content creator. This is the best content creator.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

He hates the word content creator.

SPEAKER_04 53:34

Which, which, which lets you know, if we're talking about what the attention condoms and the damage it has done, social media specifically, has done to our our young people and to a regular everyday adult.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:47

Then that is like damage that like meth.

unknown 53:50

That's all.

SPEAKER_04 53:51

You know, it's like to the point of like it's doing that kind of damage.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Physical.

SPEAKER_04 53:55

Physical harm. Yeah, physical harm, yeah. There are people, there are documentaries about people who have completely neglected their real lives. Children, their babies have died because they couldn't take care of their children because they were so in the computer, right? Yeah. There's people, there's children that have tried to kill their own friends because they thought somebody in a computer told them to do it.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

This stuff is all very real.

SPEAKER_04 54:15

So these are all things that we know to be true, but you want to be the best content creator. Children are growing up with that being their dream and their vision. So then that makes you think, well, well, if it's meth and it's doing the harm it's doing, then why are so many of us rushing to be dope dealers, you know? There was a time we would be like kind of critical of the nigga just killing their own community.

SPEAKER_01 54:40

We come from the crack is whack era.

SPEAKER_04 54:41

Like crackers whack. Like, so when I'm doing-house. So when I'm doing my shows and I'm on social media, like the only reason why I'm trying to get there is to get you off of there. Let's come to me in person. Let's be offline together.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

Let's be offline together.

unknown 54:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 54:56

And it's for me, it was like, y'all, this serves a purpose, but we have to know when it ends. And this current iteration of the culture and society hasn't, we don't have any classes or programs in schools that are teaching young people how to deal with social media. There should be a class.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 55:14

They should be going through training. When I used to work at Nickelodeon years ago, I was an intern in Nickelodeon, and I used to be a part of the creative on air promos. So they were the little skits that go in between show and like commercials. And you know, you'd have like Nick Jr. be like, now back to the show, you know, or we'll be right back. These little skits, they were things that people sat in a room and wrote and created because the federal department of like film or whatever the term is, makes it so that children cannot distinguish between reality and um, you know, fake, the fake world, TV world. So they need something in the TV to let them know that they're leaving this imagination space into the real world. And that was regulated. It's called regulations. Wow. Children have none of that, you know, unless your parent is regulating your TV, you know, or unless your parents are regulating your computer usage or your phone usage. And maybe you can try to make little, you know, um, there are programs now that you can try to make some safeguards for your children. But that should be a universal thing. There should be a policy for everyone to have those things. So to me, if I know that this is true, these are the things we're dealing with, then it's really hard for me to trust some of these people that are on social media and claim that they care about my emotional, psychological freedom and liberation, you know? When they're using like a tool that's continually keeping me here.

SPEAKER_00 56:56

Man, this is such an important message.

SPEAKER_04 56:57

It's like, because it's deep. I gotta check myself, bro. I gotta like, I gotta have a conversation with my partner, be like, we gotta put our phone outside when we go to bed. We have to do that, you know? And we have to be intentional about when we're using it, why we're using it, but you slip up. You get on, y'all, y'all been on there. We've been on there. And I used to talk to you about it.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

Everything you said, I relate so much. I relate to so much because we've had these conversations. This nigga is back with you.

SPEAKER_04 57:29

On the way to see Dave Chappelle at that university, and I remember having it. I've been waiting to talk to a deep one.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

I wanted to talk to the brother. Yeah. But everything about that. But everything you said just now, and I've I've shifted the way I've been on it. But everything you just said right now is exactly why I was doing what I was doing. Because everything you said, I knew that it was a drop in the water. My little argument with trolls and the pushback, but I'm like, yo, we cannot let these messages go online without some form of push it back. And our argument, our discussion was about, like you said, strategy and tactic. You know my politics, you know my intention, you know we we agree on the movement for black lives and supporting it. But it's like I felt like somewhat, I felt like this idea that what I was pushing back, whether effectively or not, what I was pushing back against at that time on social media was that social, this idea that social media is not real. This racism and bigotry we experience on social media, this hatred we experienced on social media, that's just on the internet. That's just trolling. Those are just bots. Meanwhile, people are dying. Meanwhile, people are getting bullied to death because they're not knowing how to navigate and social media.

SPEAKER_04 58:42

And real harm is being caused by lies that people are making on social media.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

That's right. And that's what I was pushing back. And and and and I I I faltered on it and I I was I was good at it and I was bad at it, but I stand on my intentions.

SPEAKER_04 58:55

I think you were right and in in maybe the intention. Yeah. I think the execution or which is like a harsh word, but I think the the reality of like how things manifested for you, which was hard to watch as people who loved and admired you and know you in real life, was like seeing it being permission for people to want to assassinate your character because of the tone by which they're seeing you with on the internet and not realizing you are who you are as a person. And so to me, the complexity that allows, and this something I had to learn because I used to go off at people on the internet, and I know my friend Ferrari, he was known for that. And he had a bunch of things. He used to have a, you know, Ferrari was, he had a whole thing called stop being famous. Now the nigga's famous.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

But Ferrari is gonna light you up though. He don't don't go on his page thinking you can trick.

SPEAKER_04 59:44

No, no, no. Ferrari is still tapped, but I'm saying, like, these are, we all had to learn certain things about how we there were times I had to call him and be like, bro, like the tone, like this is coming off this way, and people had to do that to me. You know, I remember Saul hit me up one time. I was in Saul's living room in Paris going off about capitalism because I could barely pay for my damn phone bill. And I was like, this is some bullshit. I was going off. And he was like, Are you okay? And I'm like, this is just messed up. This is just no, I'm not okay. And you know, like he was more like abstract at that time. He wasn't really as politically intense as he's gone since post-October 7th. He's kind of gone real ham, which has been admirable and dope. But I think like at that time, there were still people that were carved carving out how they would, you know, how they would talk about certain things or where they would do it. And so to me, I'm learning the value of that as you age. You get new, hopefully. Yeah, hopefully, you get some wisdom. Yes, yes, indeed. You know what I'm saying? Tell them you still get you got some more wisdom to get because I don't see no gray coming up anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:55

No, well, I mean, that's that's that's that's movie magic right there. It's movie magic. Shout out to Fat Joe, go buy his uh uh beer products off the shelf. Um, I don't use Fat Joe's beer products, but somebody should.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:08

I don't know, I don't know about that, but I'll just say uh shout out to the movie. Yeah, you know, there's a sense of humor coming up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's an album coming called The Color of Ring.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

Yes, um, May 20th. Thank you for your time. May 22nd. Um I your Tiny Dust was amazing. I saw you perform Brian Jackson.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:24

That was so dope to see you on there. It's so dope to see you on all this difference of knowing.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:29

I wanted to say to you, Tef, like, and tell it, I feel so grateful to like have your support over the years. Um, but it's been really cool to be able to kind of grow and choose my own path with my art. And like now that I actually put my whole heart into it to be supported by the people, to be supported and to see where I'm not supported is also heartbreaking sometimes. But I really appreciate y'all for like, yeah, having me on this podcast and continually reaching out and checking in.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

This podcast is designed specifically for you. And for people like you, for people whose voices need to be uplifted or celebrated, but you have to have a specific lens to sometimes get artists like us. And if we don't do this for each other, nobody's gonna do it for us.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:19

No, I think it's it's dope, and I hope that y'all continue to like have fun with it, you know, be accountable, be intentional. Um, you know, I hope look forward to get hopefully we get older and wiser and new lessons. There's so much we could not say.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:35

Yeah, and this is a home for you. Like you were on People's Party, and we did the whole like, this is your life going through. So I didn't feel like we had to do that for this, but this was more uh open form conversation about what's going on recently. But anytime, the way that let me ask you this, designer, anytime that you were in the same city as us and we have the cameras, feel free to come and sit in. Like, this is just it's for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

You can take over the whole show, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:57

Yeah, it could be your show. Whatever. You got a pride, you got something you want to do, you want to perform, you want to talk about something. You got a guest that you think we should speak to, just let us know.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:04

Yeah, I think the the main thing for me is just to say thank you. And um it really frees me to do my art. It is the most liberating thing. There's nothing more powerful for me that has helped me get through these this time than being on that stage, than playing with a band. And I just want people to experience that with me because we do it with so much intention and so much love. And I get to work with so many incredible musicians that are really like just like people like John Coltrane or Max Roach or whatever, them niggas are live. Right now, there are that versions of people who are putting and pushing the envelope in music, and they don't always get the maybe the clout or the or the visibility, but they are there. And there are people with us in mind, there are people that are um are creating with us in mind to create new pathways and new imagination around what what's possible and what we can do. So I just want to be a part of that moment and that legacy right now. I feel like um I just hope that you know I get to continue to do it. You know, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:11

I feel like you've always been very intentional about like making sure there's a spiritual connection between you and the greats of the past. And um a lot of people say that's the Jordan's Gwendolyn Brooks, Sonia Sanchez. And what's wild for me is a person that's Mary Barack is what's wild is a person that knows you is seeing you actually morph into our modern day version of the people that you used to be describing to us as that level of importance. I agree with that. You know, it's pretty crazy. But my question up under that is how have you navigated becoming this version of yourself? Because I know a version of you that used to put other people on. And now it it looks like you're taking your skill set to put other people on, to put yourself on.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:08

That's funny. That's a really good question. And I think um only people who know me know that, you know? Really? There's some people that my friend was saying, my friend Mateo, he was like, Oh yeah, it was so crazy to see you at a festival, and like he's like, I'm watching from other people's eyes. Like they see this as just like another show or an entertainment. Like, oh, look at this poet up here do doing these poems about these things. And he's like, But I know you as Aja, like this person that I saw go through these phases and iterations in life. And so for me, I don't know anything else but to just be and exist. And I wanted to always, my dream was always to make people feel the way the poets I loved made me feel, and to do the things that made them proud. So, so as long as I'm like staying true to my Myself. I think that's what keeps me going. And honestly, it's just a joy to like be an artist. You know what I mean? Because honestly, it's the one place that gives me the most space to be vulnerable, to be complicated, to experiment, you know, to imagine. And it's hard to advocate for yourself, you know, because I think when I'm doing it for other people, it's it's like easier. It's like, how you don't see how great this person is? Come on now. You know, like I get really animated. And I think people were so used to that that there's it's interesting to see the transition of like who's been able to deal with me moving to a place of like, hey, this is something I have that I'm excited about. Wanna see it? You know, huh? I love, I loved it. I worked really hard on it. I thought of you when I was making it. Please, you know, like there feels like more of a, I feel like I'm in a place where sometimes I have to get out of begging, you know, when it comes to myself and just owning and stepping into like my power and being like, yeah, if y'all fuck with it, then cool. If not, keep it moving, you know, like that's just a different energy, you know. And I think there's also like this thing where some people expect you to be like tap dancing. Like that's another thing, too, when you get to a certain level of the industry. Um, if you're not tap dancing a certain kind of way, or if you don't act a certain way around a certain kind of person, you know. But to me, it's like, are you real? Are you a real person? Do you believe in the things you believe in? And that still stands true no matter what.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:41

No matter where I'm at in my life, you know? Luckily, because I've been around for so much, like, Vic was one of the first people that I'll never forget it. It was uh January of 2020, and I was in Brazil, and he had sent me a message, New Year's Eve, that that New Year's Eve. And he said, like, you do so much for so many people, and you've been such a big part. He's like, I look forward to the Aja that will finally like take leadership of her own life and like shine. He said something like that, like, for you to fully shine in you know the glory of like what you've poured into other people. And I remember crying because for so long I had been that for Vic. And to this day I still am, I always will be. But I had never, he had never said anything like that to me. And it felt like he actually saw me. And since then, there's been a big shift in our relationship, too, for him to be more supportive and like, what do you want to do? Oh, I think you should do this, you know. He's on the new record. We just released a song called Melting Clocks, him and Mick Jenkins are on it. Love it, and that was really cool. Um, he was sad he couldn't be on the last record. So, you know, I think a big part of it, and this just beyond Vic. There's so many artists that I've that I've poured into that I feel like some of them are supportive, and some of them might just be like, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:08

I do have one more question because y'all brought up spirituality. Um and both of us studied theology in college. That's something else we share. I've heard you speak about and going back to the theme of the need for the arts. Um, I've heard you speak about the poetry of holy books and how that's impacted you as an artist. Can we go out with you speaking on that a little bit?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:34

Oh well, I don't know. I feel like I don't like to be blasphemous, you know, but that's one of the things about going to Palestine that was so deep, right? Like I remember hearing the call to prayer. And I think it was all of us, we were standing outside and just hearing the call to prayer was so powerful that I was like, oh, this is deeper than anything I've ever experienced before. To walk the streets of Jesus and Muhammad and you know, all these great religious leaders, and to be like, it ain't just a book. You know what I mean? These are lives that people were living. And it's so interesting who gets to tell those stories of those lives. Because I'm like, I would not trust anybody with my story. There's not many people I could look to right now that I would trust, that I'd throw a stone, I'd be like, you could write my story. So I have grace for text, for religious text, you know what I mean? But I also move with a little bit of like skepticism of who wrote this and what was the intention of the writing, you know? And so I think that there is value in the stories and the lessons of the parables of the stories. Like I just came from Miss Ricky, Mama Ricky's house where Georgia does church service, um, Georgia Ann Moldrow and her and her mother. And she was telling the story of Samuel and Ruth, and you know, I was like, man, I missed. That's why I loved going to church when I grew up. Was because it was the way that the pastor or the people who were, you know, ministering could connect these stories that's that lasted through so much time and still relate to us, still connect to where we are right now. So I feel like that's what I take from sacred text, that there's some reverence for it. There's reverence for the spiritual continuum and truth that is like through it, but I don't think of it as like doctrine of Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:41

I wasn't, I wasn't saying that that's what I think you think of it. I was more talking about the language.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:45

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:45

I mean like the actual poetry of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:48

Oh yeah. Well, I think like poetry is like about for me, it's one of the most beautiful elevations of language. And it's what the way that you measure, you know, the devotion to one's craft. And so when I think of like sacred text as poetry, then I think it allows all of us to look at poetry as some fort of some form of sacred text. It allows us to see the like um the the fl the faulty of hum humanity, but also the beauty of what that devotion to pour into something and write from a place of spiritual, you know, oneness or meditative um reverence and reflection. And I think that's what I love about sacred texts is that there's poetry in and throughout it, and that poetry comes to be when you go through these stories, these fables that you see people experience. I always say, like, everybody turns into a poet when they go through love.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:44

Damn.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:45

Or heartbreak, you know, or or grief, you lose someone. Everybody's a poet then. Everybody's a poet. You know, you become a poet real quick. You think you almighty and tough and you start.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:56

And you turn into roomy.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:58

Yeah, you certainly straight up. Love and grief and joy and pain.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:04

Emotions that we have in you in your roomy. Right. Your inner roomie comes. Well, thank you for having me for hanging out. And we're gonna hang out later tonight.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:12

Yeah, they're playing ever.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:15

Yeah. I don't know when it's coming out, but y'all, you know, y'all will know about it. Ladies and gentlemen, this guy's been the outcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:33

Just call me John Cobb.