Episode 23 - 38 Spesh

On Episode 23 of Lemme Ask You This with Talib Kweli and Tef Poe, we have MC/producer 38 Spesh as our guest. We start by talking about why we are filming at the Apollo Theater in Harlem and Talib gives a history of the theater. Spesh talks about the consistency of upstate MCs and how NYC acts as a gatekeeper. Tef asks Spesh to provide his version of upstate's Chitlin Circuit. Spesh talks about his Son of G Rap album. Talib asks about Trust Comes First and Spesh breaks down his relationship with Benny The Butcher. Talib and Spesh talk about not having a plan B. Spesh explains how crack sells itself. Talib asks Spesh about his mother and Spesh talks about the song Mother and Gun. Tef asks Spesh about his vision as an artist and Spesh talks about wanting to teach thru music. Talib talks about Spesh's album with Planet Asia. Spesh talks about being inspired by the Five Percent Nation and how hiphop changed while he was locked up. Spesh talks about the importance of staying true to your sound. Spesh talks about focusing on the fans and how people used to sleep on him as an artist. Talib asks Spesh about making beats and Spesh talks about how he learned to produce while on house arrest. Talib asks Spesh about linking with DJ Green Lantern and DJ Shay. Tef asks about the difference between a good lyricist and a great lyricist and Spesh talks about studying greatness. Talib talks about being a conscious consumer. Talib asks Spesh about working with Benny The Butcher and Ransom. Spesh talks about cooking gumbo in jail. Talib talks about how Method Man no longer curses and how the Make 'Em Pay beat got rappers in their feelings. Talib asks Spesh about how radio DJs are out of touch. Tef asks Spesh about niche marketing and Talib gets clarification on Spesh's comments about Jadakiss. Spesh shows love to Jadakiss and Talib tells a story about Grafh. Talib asks Spesh about Che Noir and their song about mental health. Tef brings up the importance of having messages in music, and Spesh talks about how his children have helped his career. 

Shot and Edited By Chino Chase. Additional Filming By Aaron Ross Media Co.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Tef, you ever been to the Apollo Theater? No, I've never been to the Apollo, bro. But welcome to my home. You know what I'm saying? Like, I grew up in New York City as a musician and as a musician from New York City. The Apollo Theater is legendary. We are in Harlem. This is the Black Mecca. The Apollo Theater was started in 1913, and so many acts have come through here from Ella Fitzgerald to James Brown to Lauren Hale to even as recently as her. People got their start on the stage. You know, Jessica Care Moore, whose family, she got a star here. And all of us, black people, grew up, grew up watching Showtime at the Apollo. So it's only fitting that we get to do this episode here with our special guest, 38 Special. Definitely in the house. Definitely. What's up, man? How you doing?

SPEAKER_03 0:57

How you doing, my brother? Man, appreciate you having me, man. Expect special. Always.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Yeah, the Apollo Theater represents like I'm gonna start like this. James Brown became famous really when he did his album here, Live from the Apollo. So before that, it was more like he was doing like please, please, please, and records that were like more pop and for the radio, but uh the white audiences were not ready to understand how he what his performance was. And live at the Apollo is the first time you hear James Brown performing in front of a black audience. You hear the screams, you feel like you're in the building. And that's what really, I think, really set his career on a path for him to become one of the greats. Before that, he was just a regular RB star. You know what I'm saying? But he came from this down south and had to come to New York City. You come from upstate, right? And you've been making the rounds on the podcast, and you've been really representing upstate and really representing Rochester. And you really have been vocal about how New York has been a gatekeeper, the city has been a gatekeeper. So I wanted to start with that discussion.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

Definitely. So, you know, like coming from Rochester, it's it's hard. Like, New York City is definitely the mecca of hip hop, you know? Which, you know, everything started here. Like, being from a place that's six hours away, it's kind of very hard to be accepted. No matter how good you are. You know what I'm saying? So that was something, that was a barrier I had to break that took years just to get New York City to understand that it's other spitters outside of the boroughs. That was a fight in itself, you know what I'm saying? And um took a while to crack that, you know, consistency, consistency, consistency, you know, bars, balls, balls. And now they finally starting to see, like, okay, you know, it's some people that actually know how to rap very well. Yeah, you know, from upstate, you know what I'm saying? But it's been a long time of fighting.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 3:06

I'm sure you can relate as well. Yeah, coming from the Midwest, man, for sure. Honestly, that's I think that's why so many people from the mid relate to the upstate movement. Because we fight in the same battle to get embraced as people who could actually rap and come from a part of the world that's kind of a little bit more remote than the coastal elite cities. Uh, the violence be different. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm sure you you relate to being the biggest from where you're from is different than being the biggest in one of the actual big cities. You know, you gotta be way more militant. Facts.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Facts. Y'all both deal with very cities that have been plagued with violence. You know, Rochester was murder capital for a long time. One thing I noticed about people, me being a New Yorker, I ran around with street dudes. But when I first started, I don't know how it is now, because I'm older now, but when I first started in the city, the street dudes really didn't gel with the rap dudes like that back in the day. And so what when you had like Jay-Z, who was the hustler, you had Wu Tang coming from the hustler background, it was like an anomaly. Right as opposed, it was like, you know what I'm saying? Like they, they, they, they weren't any less hip-hop, but there was like a clear, my experience was there was a clear distinction. And then when I went out to Cincinnati, we've talked about this on the show, I went to work with High Tech in Cincinnati, and I noticed that all the black people there, the only opportunities they had was to sell drugs. In New York City, I could go from Brooklyn to Manhattan and see black people and immigrants doing all types of different things. But when I left outside of New York, as far as the hip-hop space went, all the hip-hop people I was rocking with was all in the street culture, all doing street things. Do y'all feel like it's Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Yeah. I wanted to ask him a question about that, actually. Like um, being independent. And they got this thing called the drug dealer underground. People like Boosie have to come through like this mock Chitlin circuit coming out of the South. They hit Arkansas, they hit Memphis, they hit St. Louis. What is the upstate version of that? Like the mandatory spots you gotta hit.

SPEAKER_03 5:13

Well, the upstate Chitlin circuit would be um Pennsylvania, New York, Connecticut, Boston, well, Massachusetts, you know what I'm saying? Uh the whole New York State, you know, summer Ohio. It works its way up to even Detroit and Chicago. You know what I'm saying? But like the main area, our main areas that that keep, you know, that I'm in heavy would be the Tri-State area, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts. That's kind of like our Chitlin, you know, circuit for our area. Yeah, I always wondered about that. Because I meet these coast independent rappers? That's a good question. Yeah. Because, you know, that's people don't really understand what the Chitlin circuit is. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, and people don't really even understand that music is regional. That, you know, and once you get an understanding of that, you know, you you kind of know how to approach it. You know, people be making music for other regions, not really realizing that, like, you know, you got a circuit that's your area that you could eat off of, but you gotta feed them. You know?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

And uh that that that's that's those is the areas, though. Hip-hop, because it's really to make great hip-hop, you have to tap into your soul and your community, I feel. And hip-hop more than any music is regional. And if you don't touch the people where you're from first, it's very hard for you to be recognized as a hip-hop great.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

I agree with hip hop. You said it's a great. That's important. I feel like that's your quest, man. You want to be a great, you know what I'm saying? Like you were pushing to be recognized with with them dudes, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_03 6:55

Definitely, bro. You know, like, man, I I I came in this joint, you know, my first real album was Son of G-Rap.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

So shout out to D G-Rap, man. We don't talk about G-Rap. Shout out to D Rap Gonna enough. He's so foundational. It's just rap trees. There's roots, styles. Right? And G-Rap is a tree that a lot of styles come. We talk about Big Pun, we talk about Black Thought, we talk about Nas, all of Queensbridge, right? Really, like there's a lot of, there's not enough respect put on that man's name. Right. So I'm glad you did that project.

SPEAKER_03 7:30

Facts, though. So, you know, that was like, that's like the foundation for me. Like working with the greats, being great, you know what I'm saying, and uh pushing my pen to the maximum level, man. You know, surrounding myself with the best of the best spitters, running towards that. Like, you know what I'm saying? And that's that's that's what it's about for me, man.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Um, tell us how you started The Trust Comes First with the label and the crew, and what that represents to you.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

So, you know, I started it back in 2014. You know what I'm saying? Uh I realized that people respect movements, and sometimes, you know, movements could be bigger than the artists. That's true. Uh originally I was uh doing it by myself, just spitting, and I realized, like, you know, I need to like build a movement. All of my initial friends, none of them rapped. But I had relationships with artists throughout my journey, and I knew who was talented. Benny happened to be one of them. So when I first started Trust Come First, Benny was one of the artists that I initially signed to the company. So, you know, it was a few of us, and we were putting out music in that area and getting a real good, making an impact in our area. It ain't really traveled too far outside of our area, but in our area, we had a strong impact. And um, I still didn't know how to like liquidate the situation. We were just putting out music, giving it away for free. These were the mixtape days. We just wanted to be heard. So doing that caused a lack of consistency because I wasn't making no money off it. So I'm focusing on other things. And uh, you know, that was around the rise of Griselda. You know, I I stopped putting out music because I was doing other things, and then, you know, Benny went over there. And then I got to see, like, oh, okay, they're paying attention to this area. Yeah. And that was enough motivation for me to be like, okay, I'm about to start back, you know, focusing on music. But once I put all my energy into the music, then I started seeing the results that I needed. But I never, prior to that, I never put the energy that was needed into music. See, that's the thing about it. A lot of artists be thinking they're going hard when they really not. A lot of artists have plan B's. Yeah. Can you explain that?

SPEAKER_02 9:46

I think that's important what you just said.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Shout out to Redhead Kingpin. Redhead Kingpin got a record called We Don't Have No Plan B. And in the video, my grandmother, Javodi Green, is in that video. Wow. That's fine. At the bar, like getting a drink at the bar in the Red Hat Kingpin video. And that's the name of my label, Javodi. Wow. Yeah. Shout out to Javodi Green, the Redhead Kingpin. We don't have no plan B. That's deep.

SPEAKER_03 10:07

No, that's real, though. It's like I had to put myself in a position where I had to figure out how to make money off my talent. See, that's another thing, man. Having options could could be a hindrance. And uh I had to literally put myself in a position where all I had was my talent and my hustle. So I'm gonna put these things together and figure it out. But I had to block everything else out. Because when you got hustle, you know, you're subject to a lot of different things. So I really had to zone in and really, really, really block everything out and put all of my energy into music and walk away from everything else and look at this like this is all I have. I had to be real with myself because it's like a lot of artists not real with themselves. They feel as though they have other things because they might have a hustle, they might have a line on some income. You know, they might have a- But they don't really love it as much as we love it. That part too. Right. Yeah. Right. And they probably don't love it as much as they love it. But even loving it could get discouraging without seeing no results because I've been there. Yeah. And I love it. And like I said, I've stopped before. But I stop because I have other options.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

When you got other options, they make it easier to stop something. I want to add on to that with two points. One, we sell books. I used to work at a bookstore, a bookstore called Inkiru Books, and I still sell books online. And this summer we're gonna do some pop-ups. And we just had a meeting at the crib about the right way to do the pop-ups. And we've done pop-ups before where we take all the books. I got all the books at the crib, right? I saw the books online, qualityclub.com, go check it out. Um we take all the books out and put them out at the event. And we don't sell no books because it's too many options. People get overwhelmed at the event. But if I pick five or six books and showcase and make it more exclusive experience, then we move more of those books. So that speaks to the to your point. Right. And that's just a lesson in hustling, right? Right? And I you talk about hustling a lot, but also gotta also big you up and thank you because it's something I heard you say that alludes to this point. I heard you say it on Bagfuel, and shout out to the Bagfuel dudes, where you talked about how you don't network and how you don't go out and how you don't go to the events, that all of your accolades and everything you've got is from putting that time into the studio. And I'm someone who has put a lot of time into the studio, but I'm also someone who, because I had a chip on my shoulder about being called a conscious artist, I did all the South by Southwest, all the AC3s, all the how can I be down. Y'all know me if you in the city, you see me at every club, I got relationships with every rapper, I'm at every event. And I I slowed down on that about 10 years ago, but I spent a lot of time doing that. So when I see you say that on the podcast, I said, man, that's a very important lesson for new artists to come in. Like you think the first thing people tell you, well, first, you it's all about relationships. You need to network, you need to be seen, you need to be on social media, you need to create content. You know, this manager, this is a manager.

SPEAKER_03 13:01

And I don't mean to cut you off, but you know most of the people that are saying that is the people without talent.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

That's right, and they're the people who are exploiting us.

SPEAKER_03 13:07

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

The people who are eating off of what we do.

SPEAKER_03 13:09

That's right. You feel me? That's right. Like, so you know, I I I this is how I look at it in the most simplest way. It was once upon a time I sold crack. And I couldn't market it. It still sold. It still sold. Yeah. That same mentality, I take that in everywhere I go. I didn't have to tell people I got the crack. The word got out. Right. Right. Crack sells itself. It definitely sells itself. So I make sure that I got good work. Right. As opposed to being seen with some work. I make sure I got the best work. It's gonna get out. Right. That mentality right there applies to everything. You know what I'm saying? And like, people don't understand, man. All of that street shit that you go through or that you experience, if you have a mind, is just something that preps you for business. Any business. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, for sure, bro. And that's just that mentality.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

For sure. I want to shout out your moms. You got this album, Mother and Gun. Facts. Very powerful album. And you say on the album, you say, My most reliable sources is my mother and my gun. Facts. And you really tell your story about how your mom's held you down, you got incarcerated for whatever it was you were doing in the streets. Yes. You break that down.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

Oh man. Like, I'm pretty sure a lot of street guys could relate to this, man. You know, we get in trouble, and you know, we really realize the value of our mother when we're in trouble. Yeah. Or when we sick, you got grown, you get grown, you get sick enough, you still like, let me call my mother. Like help me get through this. You know what I'm saying? And you really don't realize the value of that till you can't make those phone calls anymore. You, you know, a lot of us take that for granted. You know, and um, I had a lot of time to reflect after losing my mother about, you know, how much she impacted my movement, my thought process, and all of those things. And uh, you know, I'm just very thankful to be able to, you know, have somebody that was in my life for a period of time to help guide me through these different things and hold me down so I could really experience what love is. You know, unconditional love. Yes. You know, and usually in the community we come from, that comes from your mother. A lot of times, fathers, it's sad to say, but you know, in the community I came up in, you know, it ain't too many fathers really around. So your most reliable source becomes your mother, you know, until you have something else to be able to depend on. So the concept of mother and gun was like, this gun is something that I know I could depend on to protect me. Outside of my mother, it really ain't too much that I I could really depend on and have that much confidence in. And, you know, that was the whole concept of that project, you know what I mean? And, you know, it was kind of like a shrine for me showing appreciation and shit as well. Um, I want to ask you something, bro.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Um, being an independent powerhouse, uh, I know for independent artists, it's about vision. Knowing where you're gonna go next. A lot of times when people watch Nipsey interviews, they would get blown away by the wisdom, but a lot of it was just vision. Him knowing where he was going next. Uh you got a hell of a fan base right now, and you collecting a lot of power. Uh what's your overall vision for 38 Special?

SPEAKER_03 16:44

Honestly, bro, you know, after I I just wanna be comfortable, highest level of comfortability, right? Whatever that may look like, and be able to teach. You know what I'm saying? Like, I want to be able to teach my people, you know, how to, you know, uh make it out of their situation, to want more out of their situation. You know what I'm saying? And uh, you know, that's the end goal to be have a highest level of comfortability and to be able to teach my people. You know? That's really all I'm trying to do.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

That's why these albums with Planet Asia are so important, I feel like.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Shout out to Planet Asia, shout out to Planet Asia, unlikely parent for me, you and Asia.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

It makes sense to me though, because we don't know each other that well. Right. I know you as I'm I'm a fan of your music. But Asia is one of my best friends in this business. And that's like my twin. Like, you know, down south they say twin all the time. That's like my real twin. Right. You know what I'm saying? And um, he's been talking about you for years. Like my introduction to you musically come through Planet Asia. Right. And Planet Asia been early when it comes to whatever sound is next in hip hop.

SPEAKER_03 17:47

He really is, though. Yeah. He's he's good on that.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Yeah, he is. And um, y'all got the trusted chain, because he got the gold chain and you got the trust. Y'all got these albums. You told me you're working on a new one. Yeah. But the last one, like the songs in there, man, mystery school, that's like my favorite type of hip-hop. Yo, that's my shit, too. That's the show.

SPEAKER_03 18:05

That's my shit.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

You know what I'm saying? And like, there's a record God degree. This record is powerful as necessary. When you talk about teach, right? Immediately I think about this God degree record. Right. And, you know, you come from a hustling background, you talk about that in your music, but the way that you answer that question, I hear this in the music, like, this need to teach and to show like the pitfalls and the perils of things. Um and you know, not enough people are are tapped into how street dudes are really coming with consciousness because they think of conscious as cornier condescending or they think of conscious as like positive and uplifting. And conscious doesn't, it's not synonymous with positive and uplifting. Right. Consciousness is just being aware. Exactly. You know what I'm saying? And I hear that in your music.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

Yeah, it's crazy because growing up in the 90s, right, and where I'm from, the street dudes was conscious.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

Like it was a heavy 5% nation. And, you know, they, you know, the older guys, you walk out the house, it's like, what's today's mathematics? It made you want to study something. You know what I'm saying? Back then, it was cool to be smart. It was cool to have lessons. Even though you was a gangster, it was cool to have knowledge itself. You know, and that was the way I was raised. You know, and I feel like that's something that's lost. You know what I mean? It ain't cool to be sharp no more.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:26

You know what I'm saying? But that's why I keep that in the music. Because I actually come from that.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:31

You know what I mean? Facts.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

Um Kwali brought up a good point. I have been hearing about you for a very long time. And when you explain kind of like the trajectory of going away for a little bit, coming back. Um, when you did go away, because I think a lot of artists need to hear this, because people go through that stuff where they feel like, damn, I got a buzz, but do I really want to step on it and push it? You know, do I really want to put that elbow grease into turning myself into a real rapper? Um, when you went away, what was going through your consciousness? Like, did you still see yourself as like the 38th special that would be sitting here doing these interviews?

SPEAKER_03 20:10

I never ever, ever doubted that I would be here doing these interviews. Not one bit, no matter what I went through, and I went through hell.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

So even when you took a break in your mind, that was a break. It was coming back.

SPEAKER_03 20:21

I always knew, even like when I went to jail, it was 2009. Probably didn't come home till probably like 2011. And the transformation from music changed into a complete 360. It went from New York having somewhat of a stance in it, right, to not, no one cared about it. Did that affect you going to Atlanta? It affects me completely. I actually moved to Atlanta because I thought that's where hip hop was living. Hip hop, I say that all the time.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

I say hip-hop. Hip hop has been in Atlanta for a long time, bro.

SPEAKER_03 20:55

So I went down there not knowing that that wasn't the place for me. Even though hip-hop is living there, I had to go back to where the fuck I'm from and wait till hip hop come back around this way. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yeah. You know what's crazy about you saying that? I think about the trajectory of two chains a lot. He's such a great artist. And he's been to so many, from Titty Boy to now, there's been so many different iterations. Whatever he, whatever he tried, the bars was always there. Always. Even if the songs didn't connect or the group thing, player circle didn't quite connect, the bars was always there. And now, in this era, as he's older and his focus has shifted, he put out a lot of trap classics and a lot of a down south classic, and really is one of the foundational people who define that sound. But I think he's still like one of us. We still want you to hear the bars. So you hear him with Static Select or you hear him with Griselda and this new era of two chains, or you hear him on an alchemist beat. It's it's wild. So it's like when when I hear you talk about I went to Atlanta, it didn't work. If you stick to your guns, they're gonna have to come. Back around to what it is that we're doing at some point.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

Agreed. Yeah. Agreed. That's really what it's about, sticking to your guns. It could get discouraging. I, you know, I say this a lot. Like, you might have to make music that's not cool. You might have to accept the fact that you're gonna ride around with your lady and she's not listening.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Yeah, that's that's in my in my world, that's a red flag, bro. Like, you gotta be a fan of me, bro.

SPEAKER_03 22:27

You gotta be my fan.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

I like that too. No, real shit. I feel the same way. He's been Talib for a long time. You feel me? Everybody ain't Talib Kwali, you know, and they took all the music and the weight.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

They gotta be with you when you were shooting in the gym, bro.

SPEAKER_03 22:40

So, you know, that's hard for artists to accept. Like, damn, I'm gonna go to the club tonight, they're gonna spend everybody's shit but mine. There's no space for this. It's like I got, or I might like ride with this girl, she's not gonna listen to me. So, what artists do, they be like, damn, I wanna get in that space. I've been there. I wanna get in that space. When it's like you got your own space, nigga.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

I also heard you say though, I don't remember, I don't remember where I heard you say this though, but you said that uh that that people be emailing you now that you emailed back in the day.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

Facts. That just happened to me so much, bro. Facts crazy. I didn't want to say no names with one person in particular. He keeps bugging me to post him on my gram and all of that. I don't want to say his name, but I reached out to him before I was who I am. He kind of played me. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 23:25

Yeah, I experienced that a lot. I be seeing motherfuckers reach out, then I go further up and be like, damn, nigga, I nigga, I nigga, this seven years later, nigga. Real shit. Yo, that's how that shit be. Hey, you gotta be beautiful, though. You gotta look at it. It's the grind. Yeah, it's beautiful. And I understand it now too. You gotta prove yourself. Yeah, can't be in nobody's inbox. That's why, you know, like, yo, check my shit, homie. That's another thing for rappers, right? Y'all gotta stop trying to be fans of rappers. Yeah. Rapper don't do nothing for you. Oh god. So all of that, trying to send shit to rappers, yo, check me out. Yo, check me out. Get a fan, nigga. Right. Worry about the fans, not the rappers. You don't rappers don't give a fuck. They're gonna look at you, they not. That's not the nigga you want.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

And then sometimes you get a tape to a rapper, they're gonna take them bars and flip them.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

Yeah, they give a fuck once you once you in position. You know what I'm saying? Yeah and when you in position, you ain't gotta do all that. But you know, worry about the fans, man. Don't worry about if the rappers is fans of you. You know what I'm saying? That's good advice. Facts.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

For you, what comes first, the beats or the rhymes?

SPEAKER_03 24:27

To me, the rhymes are more important. Um the beats are easier.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Well, what did you start first? Started rapping first. Started rapping. So a lot of rappers, and Kanye says this, and other people say this, they started making beats because they couldn't find the sound that they were looking for.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

Basically, I I started making beats. I just was a music head, man. I was actually a young kid on house arrest, couldn't leave the house and had a keyboard in there. So I just started fucking with it. One of my homeboys, shout out to skateboard Kenny, had taught me something. He made a beat, and I said, How the hell you did that? We the same age. I'm like, how the hell you did that? And he told me some shit, like, man, you know, man, make a sound, play some keys, go to the next sound, play them same keys in a different order. The cheat code right there. Cheat code right there for producers. For producers right there. And I stuck with that, man. And I, you know, like I said, I was like 14, and by the time I was 16, Green Lantern was impressed by a beat that I made. It got in his hands and he just took me under his wing. Let's shout out Green Lantern. Shout out to DJ Green.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Very early in my career. One of the first shows I ever did that put my name on a map was a show called Brooklyn, Vermont. I used to think Green Lantern was from Vermont, because I met him at that show. And it was Black Star and Eminem. Wow. Wow. And Green Lantern. Wow. And the show was significant because I knew M because he was doing rap Olympics and he was on the streets freestyling, battling everybody. And we were all familiar with him, but it was right around the time he got his deal. Black Star was already a thing. So I remember they came to us in the dressing room, they're like, yo, would you mind if Eminem goes on after y'all? Because it's, you know what I'm saying? Like his star is about to, and I remember us being like, yo, we'll go on before anybody, like whatever. But I remember that being a thing in my career. That's when I met Green Lantern, and that was a moment in my career where I realized, oh man, this white boy about to blow. White boy that leapfrogged over us at the show. You know what I'm saying? So shout out to Green Lantern. But he's also one of the most genuine people I know. I was just with him. He's in Arizona. I was just at a show out there with De La Soul, man. And it's always a pleasure to see him as someone who did he DJ for Eminem? He did it. Yeah, yeah. Nas and Eminem. Nas and Eminem. How you, man? Come on. He made the Champ is here beat. Yes, he's a man. You know what I'm saying? Like, he made all types of crazy beats. We working on, I got a new album I'm working on. Where I got, where he's, you know, he's in his jazz bag now. Yes, he is. So I got some of them beats on my new album. I'll play that for you off the off the camera. But like, man, shout out to Green Lantern. Shout out to Green Lantern, man.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Facts. Man, who's um, who's a a MC that you haven't square danced with that you say one day, me and we're gonna have that conversation. Yeah, because he be coming for them sees. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

He coming for him.

SPEAKER_03 27:20

Oh man, the next people I would like to work with is Nas and Jay-Z, man. I think that's that's obvious in your trajectory. Yeah, man. Them is be the guys that I would like to do music with. That's obvious. What you I come from that clause, you know? Facts. Yeah, man. Shout out to uh DJ Shea. Shout out to DJ Shea. R.I.P. the DJ, man.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:43

The legend DJ Shea. A lot of people don't know. I I my first mixtape out on Bell was recorded in DJ Shea's studio. That's how I actually met Benny, driving out to Buffalo. You know, him and Green had a relationship, and well, DJ Shea and DJ Green had a relationship. So, you know, they were telling me to go out there and record with Shay, because Rochester Buffalo's an hour away. And that's how I actually, me and Benny end up gaining a relationship. But DJ Shea was like a coach to me as well. You know what I'm saying? I appreciate Shay a lot. He helped me a lot with just like my recording process, becoming a recording artist. I was always a raw rapper, but it's the difference between being a rapper and a recording artist. You know what I'm saying? For sure. And uh Shay helped me with that.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Can you give, when you want to go? Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. Can you give some of the lyricists out there that are writing songs? Because I be having the conversations. I'm an MC, I'm in the underground. So I talk to these people, right? Your name comes up a lot in Caspiat. As a person that makes people want to rap. Can you give folks, not too, I don't want you to give too many of the secrets away as far as putting the package together, but can you give folks an understanding of what it takes to be a great lyricist versus a good lyricist? Because there's a lot of good lyricists that think they're great. But when I listen to the rhymes, I don't hear the stuff that makes it great. I don't hear the, you know, sometimes people overrap, under rap. They don't know the different mechanics of songwriting. And just give them a little bit of advice that would lead them towards an understanding of greatness.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

First off, you gotta study greatness. I would suggest that y'all go and listen to the classic projects Nas, Hove, G-Rap, Big, Pac, X. So you could understand different levels. And I mention these names for different things. I say Nas for creativity, Ho for street motivation, Tupac and DMX for passion and pain. You know what I'm saying? Biggie for flow, like G-Rap for storytelling and multiple word schemes. See, it's a lot of different levels to this in order to become the complete package and be able to really impact. In order to be that great, you gotta really study the greats that did it and did it very impactful. And uh that would be my main advice. Like, there's really no formula to this that I could tell you that ain't already been set an example. And that shit is, you know, on whatever streaming platform you want to go to and get it.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Right. And so easy, too. People complain about music. Like, I don't like anything I hear on the radio, or there's nothing out for me, or it's like, bro, like, music is in the air. You can shazam some shit and just get it out of the atmosphere. It's like no excuses. You could spend a whole year just listening to like Griselda type upstate music. You can spend a whole year just listening to Mad Lib and Alchemist. You could spend a whole year just listening to like that Detroit music you be talking about. Right. There's so many, but it's like we not conscious consumers. We want the industry to tell us what to listen to, a lot of us. And that's part of the issue, I think. Um but that's I think what made Griselda and Conway and Benny and West Side Gun and the extensions of what they do with when it could go guard to like Boldie James and Rome Streets and people get excited about that. I seen Rome Streets on an interview recently where he was talking about, man, I thought at some point it was over. I thought at some point it was just gonna be all happy shit and pop shit and and drill rap and mumble rap and uh, you know, what about the stuff that I like? And I'm so happy that that stuff is still, you know, here. Courtesy of artists like y'all.

SPEAKER_03 31:23

For real, man. That shit was definitely dying. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

Yeah, y'all. I hear the stories of I'm fascinated by a lot of the stories of you guys being regular people. You know what I'm saying? Because so many people get to where y'all got, but they don't talk about them being regular cats. You know what I'm saying? I've heard stories of Benny talking about how he and the stories he telling, I know they're real because they sound real. But stories about how he would leave upstate, get in the car, drive somewhere just to shake somebody's hand.

unknown 31:54

Right?

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Um and you know that's how I I leave, go across the country.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Just to let you know, you said I was on the phone with you, you said we might get the interview. He lives in St. Louis. He was like, I'll be there.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

He just got off the plane. We ain't fresh from the airport.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

World up. I mean, we gotta do what we gotta do. You know what I mean? Um, I feel like y'all's movement is the cornerstone of that. You know, y'all put it out there like this is a do what we gotta do movement. Right. Um but when you were living, I'm just so fascinated. When you were living that life, regular life, right? And you're like, when y'all having conversations amongst each other, like, nigga, one day I'm gonna have the woo-woo woo, you gonna do the doo doo-doo, like, hell nah.

SPEAKER_03 32:37

Hell nah. That's a good question because it started just with passion. We just wanted to make the best shit. We was actually doing it for a while and ain't know how to make no money off of it. They ain't give a fuck about making no money. Um, I think deep down inside we all knew that one day, you know, motherfuckers is gonna understand who we are. You know what I'm saying? I think that every single one of us had that mindset. I know I did, you know, but I never it was never a conversation like, you know, one day, you know what I'm saying, we gonna be performing over here, performing over there. It was never a conversation. It was just like, yo, let's get to work.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:28

And I think that's how it happens. I think when people have those conversations, they talk their way out of it happening.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

People place the obstacle before the idea. Exactly. They come with the idea and they think, oh, it ain't gonna work because of this and that and this and that, and then they start focusing on what's not gonna work. Right. That's a backwards way to think. Right. Yeah. Um this song that you got with Benny, y'all, you and Benny got this magical connection um to weapons. Do you know your verse from that? Yes, I do. Would you mind spitting that verse?

unknown 33:57

Oh, man.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

Because that's one of my favorite verses by you. Damn.

SPEAKER_03 34:04

I used to grind and pay my mom a mortgage. I don't remember that verse.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

It's all good. It's okay. That's why I had to ask first.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

Because you know, because we got a lot of verses. And if you don't perform it every night. I would have had to step in the corner, listen to it. If I listened to it a couple times, probably even once, I would have known it.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Quest love said that Black Thought can keep 20, 25 songs in his head at a clip. Right. Depends on what they perform in that.

SPEAKER_03 34:32

You wanna know what's crazy though about that song? That's one of the songs I gotta throw into my performance set because they always ask for that. But I never I performed that one time. That's a good one. And they went crazy. I gotta throw that on my performance set. That's a good one. Facts.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Yeah. And that's a couple years ago.

SPEAKER_03 34:46

Like, how long? When did when did that come out? And that was a while ago, like 2018. That was like eight years ago.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Yeah, the hometown hero. It's crazy. Thanks, bro. The bust of rhymes, the Jesus Arms is crazy. Like so many, so many great, great verses. Um coke runs with ransom. Whoa. Mickey Fax was on here and said that Ransom was the best. That was his number one. Um I hear you talk about ransom only. Me and Ransom got a joint called Minority Report. That's crazy, man.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

Like, let's talk about how ill Ransom is for a second. He's amazing. Yeah. Like, yeah, Ransom is like high-level lyrical assassin. You know, I look at him like, you know, like somebody I know I could call that's gonna get the job done. I never gotta even question. It's like, okay, I need somebody that I know is gonna really, really rap. This is for ransom. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, he ain't nobody to play with. And he is coming with that shit. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So yeah, ransom, one of the best ever. Yeah. You know, pinwise, and us as rappers, we know it. That's the thing about it. The actual consumer, they might be a little late, but us with pen work, we know how to measure talent. You know what I mean? So it's like, you know, we got certain rappers, that's what they call certain rappers, a rapper's rapper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. You know what I mean? Because a rapper knows that he's that guy. And Ransom would be one of them guys that, like, yeah, all the rap the rappers know. Rappers know, yeah. Rappers know. You know, just in case y'all confused on why the rappers be saying it. You know what I mean? I want you to know there's some rapper shit. We know how hard it is to come up with this shit. That's why the rappers know I'm that guy. You heard me? They know. Because they know how to do it.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

And if they don't know, you gonna tell them.

SPEAKER_03 36:35

I'm gonna definitely. You gonna tell them. Yeah, I gotta tell them.

SPEAKER_00 36:39

Yeah. I want to get more into that, but before we do that, I want to pivot to like cooking show segment. We're gonna start like a cooker show. You really got the recipe for gumbo out of hot Cheetos? Definitely, bro. Okay, break that down. Because you said in your bars that when you was locked up, y'all was making gumbo out of hot Cheetos.

SPEAKER_03 36:56

Definitely, man. All my people in the county know, man, what we do with a plastic bag and some soups and some bags of chips and hot pickles and all of this type of stuff. We just throw in a bag and turn it into something marvelous, you know?

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Have you seen that movie? Um, uh, I forget the name of the movie, but it's a movie about how there's a Mexican dude who worked at Fritole Lay and he came up with the recipe for the Cheetos, for the hot Cheetos. Oh, wow. How it became the highest seller snack for Frito Lay? Wasn't it an accident? It was no, he was like, he was watching people who used to take the chips, the Mexican people in LA, and put the chili powder on the chips, and and his little girl liked it. And he he was like he was like a janitor or something. He wasn't even somebody who was supposed to even be making, coming up with ideas. And he gave them his this million-dollar idea and he leveled up and it became the highest selling stack. It's a story on Disney or Hulu or some shit.

unknown 37:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

But shout out to Thurston Howard III, too, because he got a cookbook. He got a jail cookbook. Oh, were? Yeah, like the recipes that when he was locked up.

SPEAKER_03 37:57

Yeah, man. I could make one of those too, man. I might have to take that, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Tracy Morgan has a show called Lass OG. I was on that show. And that was like a plot with his character that he learned how to cook in jail, and then he came out and was doing the jail recipes in a restaurant. Oh, yeah, did he make the food truck? Yeah, he had the food truck. Method Man was with his was in the food truck with him. Yeah, Method Man killed that. Yeah, man. Method Man is be killing your records too, bro. Oh, he goes retarded every time. Yeah, man, every time. Method Man's on my new album with Large Professor. Would you agree that Method Man somehow, when he stopped cursing, just became a better MC? Yo, I just now noticed. I didn't notice he stopped cursing. He ain't cursing years. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

He influenced me to stop cursing. I ain't wrote. If you hear anything with cursing in it for me, it's old as heck. But I still be cursing.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

I just hardly need to get my point across sometime without saying that extra that extra curse word.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

Just, just, just, but I'm about to try that. I'm about to try it. I had to start challenging myself. You write so many raps after a while, and it's easy to just be like, da da da da da da, fuck this, da du da da. It keeps you going when you can throw that profanity in there. And I started feeling myself being like, yo, it's words and paraphrases and catchphrases that you ain't even getting to as a writer, because you read just throw three, four profanity words in there, you know what I mean? So but I've been noticing without the profanity, take me a little longer sometimes in terms of pushing through the third tier of thought. Because I'm I can't just access my, you know, regular move and dunk, and I gotta like try to hit them with a fade away type shit. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 39:35

Yeah. It's different. You and Benny have showcased an amazing amount of solidarity through all the changes that people go through. Um, being that y'all have showcased this solidarity and coming from the Griselda movement, do you have any thoughts you want to share on some of the talk that's going on about what's happening with Griselda and these conversations with Jay-Z?

SPEAKER_03 39:59

I really don't know nothing about they business. That's not your bag. Yeah, I really don't know nothing about they business. Shout out to them, though. You know, I respect everything the boys did, you know what I'm saying, and doing, but I I really don't know they business.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

I'm fascinated by it because of how this make them pay, this Drake beat, making everybody rap exactly how they feel. Whether you're a Drake fan or not, you gotta admit, this make them pay beat guy niggas in their feelings. People like, you know what, I'm gonna rap on it, and I'm gonna tell you how I feel. Yo. What is it about that feed? It's just Denise Williams. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's like, we heard this sample before.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

My man's called me when that album dropped. He said, the only good joint on there is make them pay. The night he said that. I said, well, that's gonna be the tracker everybody rapping on, yo.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Yeah, man, people are. But I like it though. I like, I like the, I don't, I don't know the business. I don't know all this to talk about these private conversations and everything, but it just in terms of the art, I really like to hear somebody like Conway really share his feelings like that. I feel like the older we get, the more I want to hear. I want to hear how you how you really feel about some shit.

SPEAKER_03 41:04

Right. You know, I love when motherfuckers express themselves through music. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 41:08

I also like the way that he rolled it out too. I like the way that it's like just just like vibing in the studio, you know what I'm saying? Let us letting us into like, you know, being more personable with it. Um have y'all heard, I meant to look this up before this interview. Um but DJ Clue was in an interview. And he I might need to look it up before I speak on it. But uh, if I'm paraphrasing, he was in an interview, and I think the same thing happened with DJ Self. DJ Clue and DJ Self, these are guys who have been on the radio for a long time. These guys are heavy in the clubs, these guys are put in a lot of work, but they're both guys who have are now essentially gatekeepers. They've been in the industry for a long time. And in both situations where they was asked about y'all's movement, I feel like the answer was not really informed. You know what I'm saying? The answer was like trying to like maintain their place on the radio and trying to maintain the uh what the the goal of having radio play is instead of like speaking from a place of representing the culture. And I feel like they would have back in the day, but they too baked into the system now.

SPEAKER_03 42:15

I I you know, I I wouldn't be surprised if they just was uninformed. Yeah. About what's going on. About what's going on. I honestly feel like they was they, you know, you gotta realize, man, like the stuff that I do, the last thing I'm thinking about is radio or club.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:33

If it comes across your desk, then that, you know, that you the last person. If you're radio club DJ, I don't expect you to know who I am.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Cypher Sound said on the show, he said the radio is not for us. Right. He said, My job on the radio is not to play the underground, whatever. Like, my job is to play what people who don't know about hip-hop want to hear. Right. So get that out of your head that I'm gonna come up there and like if we can slip it in, we'll slip it in. Right. You know, but um yeah, and cypher's someone who has championed my career. Uh there was an interview with Tyler the Creator and Funkmaster Flex. Tyler's album dropped the same time as DJ Khaled's album. And Tyler did an interview on Flex, and Flex was like, yo, I don't understand how you're so successful. And I don't, I'm not playing none of your records in the club. Like, nobody I know is talking about you. You know what I'm saying? How did you do better than DJ Khaled, who has all these hit records and all these relationships? And you know, Tyler was kind of like trolling him a little bit in that interview, I think. But I think that was a watershed moment in the industry. That was like almost like a physical, tangible breaking point. It's like them old rules don't apply no more. Right. You know what I'm saying? Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

It was ill to watch. Um, how much how important has niche marketing been for you? Like understanding the niche that you fulfill. That's the most important thing. You know, working it.

SPEAKER_03 43:54

It's been the most important thing. Before then, I used to just make music. I like all kinds. So if I like the beat, I rapped on it. Because I could. And I realized that it took me a while to realize, but that you have to have a lane and stay in your lane. Master your lane. Worry about everybody else. And I, you know, it's hard to come to that understanding when your lane might not be the popular lane at that point. But it don't matter, you gotta become good, great at it, you know, and you'll be able to do something. But that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Yeah. Yeah, man. We take this rap so seriously. Uh for black people, this music is not just art that you hang up on the wall and just appreciate its artistic value, it's survival for a lot of us. And so I feel like the conversation around you being competitive on songs with Jadicus and people like this is that to me is what's being lost in the conversation about how seriously we take it. But I'm of two minds when it comes to this conversation, because somebody like a J. Cole, people got very upset at him when he said, like, do I really walk around thinking I'm the best? No, like I put on a rap cape when it's time to do the rap bars. And as a 50-year-old man who's been doing this for a long time, and as someone who has been on many records with the greats, as someone who loved this, not only did I relate to what he said, I completely agree, because that's how I see. That's how I see it. But me and Tef, we we don't argue, but we was debating it. He was like, nah, nigga, like, if you said you the best, I'm gonna let you represent what you were saying.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

Yeah, I just feel like an outstanding is gonna be different on this one because you have actually been, at some point in your tenure as an MC, considered possibly the best in the world. You feel what I'm saying? So it's like if you climb to the mountaintop, of course you're gonna be like, nigga, it's just the mountaintop.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

You're not right. It's just music. That's what we're talking about. Okay, who's, you know, the best is nothing to you. You have with Yasseen Bey for a living. Right. You feel what I'm saying? So somebody like when he said that for me, it was like disheartening in a sense because as fans, we put a lot on the line when cats go on these I'm the best campaigns. And if it's just a talking point, then let me know off the rip when you're making the records. It's just like, it's just like, for me, it's just like when people make gangster rap. Like if it's just rap, let me know. You feel what I'm saying? But even with the MC stuff, if it's just rap, let me know. Because now, for where I'm at in the saga, you do got brothers like this brother who deserve to be in the conversation for best in the world, right? Has put the work in, got the movement, got the statistics. Yet we got cats that's kind of in the lane being recognized as such, and they like, I don't even want it. You know what I mean? Like, well, for me, that's a problem in hip-hop then. It's it's because it's like we don't get the highest quality assurance, then. You know what I mean? Like, let the people who want to represent and push the boundaries of lyricism, and when I say that as an MC, I know that there's MCs out there that want the problems that come with pushing the boundaries of lyricism to be theirs as well, because they understand everything that comes with the whole ensemble of saying, hey, I'm going for that. I'm gonna break the fourth wall. I wanna be, I gotta shatter what y'all think the the rankings are for me to get in there. Yeah. That's a conquest. That's something you gotta really go through, changing the whole culture, the outline of how people think. And I just felt disheartened. I get disheartened when I see people who have the might of the music industry behind them. And they kind of like, yeah, I was just going to work, bruh.

unknown 47:51

You know?

SPEAKER_02 47:52

It's like watching Khaled tweet through the next game. I mean, you might feel like that.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

I don't really care about sports, but people was upset about that shit. Like, you got all this, you paid all this money for these seats, and you're not gonna watch the game.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

But yeah, I mean, how you feel about like the the industry not, I ain't gonna even say the industry, I'm gonna say the people's look at the game, not putting the proper lyricist in the proper positions, the proper rankings. I know over the course of time that's been a huge controversial issue with people.

SPEAKER_03 48:23

Yeah, man, I realize that, like, you know, being at this, it's all like, you know, relative to that person, like who you feel, who's your top five, who's your favorite rapper, like what's what it's all subjective. It's like, what impacts you? You know, what talks to you? With me understanding that, I realize, like, nobody could be better than you. Everybody is the best at what they do. You could nobody could be better than you at what you do.

SPEAKER_00 48:49

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 48:50

That's what keeps me, my, my, my, my, my confidence so high. Like, say if I'm going in the studio and I'm with an extreme lyricist, I'm not worried about what he's gonna do. Because I know he can't do what I'm doing. I'm the best at being me. The people that love me love me for being me. There's nobody that could be better than that. That helps with my confidence level, and I think every artist should focus on that. Should just focus on what they bring to the table and know that they the best at that.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:16

At being themselves. You know what I'm saying? Um that's just how I feel, man.

SPEAKER_00 49:22

You know? Yeah. With this Jadakus comment that has gone viral with you. Um you didn't say it was implied, I think, but you didn't mention his name. You said, I feel like I was the best verse on the record.

SPEAKER_03 49:37

I said I smoked the record.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

I smoked the record. And I had the best verse. I feel like that's different, this nuance. I feel like that's different than saying I smoke this individual. That's completely different. Yeah. I think that's getting lost in the conversation.

SPEAKER_03 49:48

I think that's definitely lost in the conversation, man. If we all on the cipher track and I'm like, yo, I got the best verse, then why? That's just how everyone should feel entering this situation. We should all strive to kill a record.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

Right. You know what I'm saying? Now, when it comes to the part about, can I I didn't, I didn't see what you said until today. I've just been seeing what the talk about it. But I was like, I'm gonna sit down with the dude, so I'm gonna I'm gonna watch what he actually said. And when you said, yo, he's ducking me. Come outside, that felt, to me, knowing that y'all know each other, that felt playful. Definitely. But people, I think, took it like you really like trying to like challenge his place in the game. Of course.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

Which is what that's why people Nah, of course not. You know, he's a legend. Yeah, you can't take nothing away from a legend, you know, it is what it is. And he inspired, you know, all of us that come from, you know, uh my my era and shit. So, like, you know, nah, it ain't that. You know, he know what it is. Yeah, it's playful. This is a competitive, friendly competitive study.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

And he, I saw the tweet he put, and he was playful. And he said, I'm gonna go in the studio. So if anything, if we get some hot Jada Kiss versus out of this, it'll be a win-win for the coach. Definitely. Absolutely. Man, Graf, shout out to Graph. I know you work with Graf a lot. Shout out to Graf, that's my bro. One of my favorite people out here in the business. I remember Graph, we did a record called Hip Hop for Respect, where I'm gonna do Diala with Shot. And 88 Keys brought a teenage Graph to the studio. Oh, okay. He was like, yo, he's next. And Graph is on that record. The record came out in 1997, 98, whatever I'm gonna do. But I walked to the store and bought that record. Graph is on that record. And um that's when I first met him. Oh, wow. And I'm on his a single of his from last year. That's great. Yeah. Um he tells a funny story that made me think of your situation when you said about like, yo, is he, is he with, like, are you not returning my phone calls? Like, he tells this funny story about uh getting mad at Buster Rhymes.

SPEAKER_03 51:39

You ever heard the story? He told me this.

SPEAKER_00 51:41

Yeah, I see that I've I've seen him tell it on different podcasts, right? But long story short, for people who don't know, he was mad because he had Buster's number. Buster said, and people for anybody who knows they're good friends right now to this day. Back then, he had Buster's number and he asked Buster to get on a song, and Buster was not returning his phone call. So he pulls up at the studio, and you know, Graf could be aggressive with, you know what I'm saying? He's calmed down a little bit, but he pulled up at a studio and he pressed Buster about the song. They got into altercation, they start pulling breaking bottles and taking outside, and it got crazy. Right. It's beautiful to see that they came together and that's over with. But I remember watching that thinking, sometimes niggas ain't gonna call you back. And that's what it is. Like, like, I got people in this business, I got people that I know that that love me, that I love them, but they cannot get me on the phone. Right. You know what I'm saying? And so I was that's that's when I was listening to you talk about that, I was like, that's what this is. It's like, I know, I know Jada Kiss ain't ducking this dude, but sometimes you just be like, you know what I'm saying? It's not it's not in your bandwidth right now.

SPEAKER_02 52:49

You know what I'm saying? I think it speaks to how much of a maniac you gotta really be to be on the internet talking about kiss. Come outside. It's Jada Kiss, nigga. Somebody to play with. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_03 53:00

That lets you know you gotta be a maniac. You don't give a fuck.

SPEAKER_00 53:07

He said, but it's kiss. Man, um, this has been a great conversation, man. I appreciate you. I got a couple more questions before we let you get out of here. Um, Shay Noir has been on so many of your records. Yes. Um she's so powerful, um, so important to the culture, and I feel like people don't talk about her enough. Um, y'all got a lot of records, but I think my favorite record by y'all for many reasons is mental health.

SPEAKER_03 53:32

Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

And I wrote the hook down because I think the hook is very important. If you don't remember it, I'm gonna say it. Right. You know what I'm saying? But um, it's the uh, we say, uh, what's mental health to a street nigga? Mm-hmm. Right? When you're going through shit, who's gonna speak with you? Can't tell my bitch the reason why I'm sad. If I tell her my problem, she repeated when she's mad. Bro, I felt that in my soul. You know what I'm saying? Because you have to protect your energy sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 53:58

Right. No, real shit. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

And um, and speak more about the importance of why y'all felt like y'all had to make that record in hip-hop, in the hip-hop space.

SPEAKER_03 54:08

Because I understand that it's no vulnerable space for for street guys. It doesn't seem like it's cool to be able to vent or be vulnerable, so we hold it in. Me, I rap, that's my therapy. I have a place to I feel the same way, bro. I have a place to express myself.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

Man, say say that again, because it's so important.

SPEAKER_03 54:28

But everybody don't got the outlet. Yeah. So I, you know, I felt like me making this song would be like an outlet for them. They could play it and be like, all right, somebody else going through this shit, it made it through this shit, so good, I'll be all right type shit. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

Yeah, records like that important, man. Um, how important is it for you to keep the message in your music? Like a message of some sort.

SPEAKER_03 54:50

It's very important, man. Like, that's probably why I don't listen to so much music. I want to be able to take something away from it.

unknown 54:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:59

You know, even if I can't fully apply it to my life, let me learn something, you know, that I possibly could use for later. Tell me about an experience. If you went poor, tell me about it. If you lost all your money, tell me about it. Like, you know what I mean? Tell me your pain.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:15

So, you know, I could I could learn something from it. I want to be able to walk away with something. So that's how I approach music. Like, even though I'm giving you balls of saying slick shit, of saying this, that, and the third, I still want you to be able to walk away with something. In the midst of all that. But I know you can't feed steak to a baby, so I don't want to be up here preaching. So I gotta, you know, kind of like hide the jewels in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? In the applesauce in there.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

Yeah, I might have to hide the jewels in the applesauce for real. Speaking of the babies and the jewels and everything, can you unpack how having children has inspired you as an artist and maybe changed you as an artist?

SPEAKER_03 55:55

Oh man, like my biggest motivation is definitely the kids. And it changed me a lot because it actually made me want to put more Jews inside of the music as well. Because you think you like, yo, damn, when I'm not here, my kids and my grandkids is gonna go back to listen to this. Just because. And I realized this may be a way for me to talk to these future generations. You know what I mean? With these Jews and my outlooks and my perspectives, they'll be able to go and listen to that a hundred years from now. Great grandkids. Let me see what's how special thinking. So I didn't want it to all be bravado and bragging and things of that nature. I want to make sure that I'm putting my true feelings, true experiences inside of this. So the future generations I have something to go back to and study and learn from. You know what I mean? So it's very important.

SPEAKER_00 56:42

Yeah, man. Ladies and gentlemen, 38 Special. Let me ask you this, bro. Thank you, bro. Appreciate you, salute.

SPEAKER_02 56:49

Thank you, man, for your time. It's great. Y'all like, y'all tough with 38 Special. It's real. It's real. It's not AI. This is really a real battle.