Lemme Ask You This
From the minds of Talib Kweli and Tef Poe comes Lemme Ask You This, a podcast that lives at the intersection of art and activism.
Lemme Ask You This
Episode 26 - Revolutionary Family Values
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Episode 26 - Revolutionary Family Values
Shot and Edited By Chino Chase. Additional Filming By Aaron Ross Media Co.
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I think I want to talk about uh how some of the fans are telling me that this some of this content is introducing another side of Talib to them. Explain what you mean. Uh the other night when we were at the show, you know, I'm feeling uh momentum of folks who are watching the clips, watching episodes, subscribing, and in a sense, you know, treating it like it's kind of like its own power verse, getting into this character, bouncing back and forth in Talib, bouncing into some Nico, bouncing into this character, bouncing into that character. And uh, so this is a new addition to that universe, and people been, you know, telling me that they feel like uh at least what I got from one gentleman, he he stopped me specifically and would not even let me talk. And he was like, Look, bro, you dope. I watch the podcast, you killing shit, y'all bringing out a whole new different Taliil Kwali to me. I don't know what he meant by that. Okay, but that's what he told me at the show. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00Okay, well, I'll take it, man. I'll take it. I'll take all that feedback, man. Like with the podcast, this is different than like my own page because this is a team effort. This is you, me, the whole team that that do this with us. So it's like somebody got something to say hateful about the podcast. I'm just gonna be like, well, thank you for watching. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. If it's me, I might respond differently. But the podcast, like, man, you know, thank you for watching. Sorry you had a a negative experience, you know.
SPEAKER_01For me, I'm just on a positive vibe, bro. You know what I'm saying? Like, it ain't every day that you get to manifest with cats that uh you you dream about manifesting with. You know what I'm saying? And I think all too often in hip-hop, we lose sight of still having reverence for the niggas who laid the way, for the niggas who paved the way. And and even still realizing right now, hip-hop ain't just a young man's sport no more. You know what I'm saying? Like things are evolving in a way where it's becoming, like you like to say, adult contemporary music. And even under that, you got other genres that are um becoming their own thing within hip-hop. So it's just been interesting for me to be um kind of basically on the front lines of watching a lot of that shit go down, I feel. Like the other night with the show, Rod Digga had a good point, you know what I mean? When she was like, the OGs is outside.
SPEAKER_00Well, I appreciate you saying that, and I appreciate one thing I could really say that I appreciate about you is that you are intentional about that. And um, I make myself accessible. I'm outside a lot. You know, I'm online a lot, I'm at the club, I'm at the event, I travel, I'm I'm I'm in touch with the people a lot. And that's there's a gift in the curse. And the and the gifts far away the curses. It's a net positive for me to be like that. I can't say that for everybody. Some people like being outside all the time might be too much for them. But for me, it's a net positive, right? But one of the curses is people could sometimes take that for granted. I think, and people start to lose sight of the fact that the stakes is higher for me to be outside than maybe for you some in certain certain situations. And um, and you know, sometimes people I don't get disrespected. I don't feel like people are out here disrespecting me. I'm not talking about the internet, I'm talking about real life. But I feel like um sometimes the the energy is different when you pull back, you know, scarcity creates value, as as people are known to say. And so it's like when you're always outside, people sometimes don't treat you, I think, with the with the same sort of reverence. And I think with you, that's never dissipated or changed. No. You've been around me a lot more than you used to be around me. It's like you've had plenty of time to get used to me. But you talk to me and treat me in a way that's not no sucker shit. It's some real man shit. But it's like it's like respecting what we are bringing to the table at all times.
SPEAKER_01You know what uh it breaks down to for me? Uh a brother from St. Louis by the name of T Dubbo. Uh he We were on the phone when we were about to go to the White House to meet Barack Obama. My plane never landed to meet Barack. You know what I'm saying? And I had wrote a scathing article saying basically as Barack Obama forsaken black people. It was I was being a fool, playing strategic games, trying to get that article published in Time magazine and have it come out the same time that I was in the Oval Office and they was like, haha, jokes on you, nigga. This plane ain't taking off. I can't publish. Jokes on you. But it didn't, the plane never took off. You know what I'm saying? So I never met made the meeting or whatever. But sometimes it'd be a gift and a curse and all types of things like that. But I tell this story to say on that phone call, T Dub said something that I never forget. He said, uh, people were talking about what we were gonna do when we got into the Oval Office and how we were gonna respond to it. And Dub said, somebody on the call said, I suggest we don't shake the man's hand. And Dub said, nah, I ain't gonna do that. He's a man. No matter if we disagree with him, agree with him, end of the day, that's a man. If he invited me into his presence, I'm gonna respect the man on that notion at least. You know what I'm saying? And I think on a very basic, basic, basic, basic, basic level, whether it be you, whether it be immortal technique, whether it be killer mic, whether it be my big homie GLC, any of these guys that have took a notice to me that didn't have to, you know what I'm saying, whether it be Coco uh producer from St. Louis, basement beach, them guys went diamond with Nelly, whether it be uh Keywand from the St. Lunatics, whether it be Murphy Lee, all these guys who have already did their thing, they don't need me. You know what I'm saying? So any opportunity to be around that type of lineage, which I use that word intentionally, the hip-hop canon, it's just important to me, bro. You know what I'm saying? It's just important to me.
SPEAKER_00No, I appreciate that, man. Like, yeah, man, I went up to the White House, I shook that man's hand. You know what I'm saying? And I was the meeting I was in with Obama was wild. It was like Buster Rhymes was there. Talking about Transformers. He's talking about how the gods' names sound like Transformers. You know, Supreme Justice Allah sound like some majestic, magical, you know what I'm saying? And he was talking about how that that gave him self-esteem. He was talking about the 5% nation in the White House with Obama, Alicia Keyes was there, ASAP Rocky was there, Pusha T was there, Rick Ross was there, Nicki Minaj was there. Nicki Minaj get invited to the White House no matter who president, apparently. Apparently, Nicki Minaj is the voice for black America. Um Yeah, that was a wild, it's a wild, wild time. But when I went up there, um to your point about wanting to make sure that you are efficient in the moment and that you are uh on cold when it comes to the movement. Um, I actually had several meetings with uh friends of mine, activists, who were more radical than myself. I made sure I tapped in with super radical voices. And um, what should I talk to him about? What should I make sure that I bring up? Make sure that I was on point and on code. And um politics is you know a funny thing because Obama and Valerie Jarrett, she was in the meaning, particularly Valerie Jarrett, Obama and Valerie Jarrett, but particularly Valerie Jarrett, they were very much in tune and in sync conversation-wise. Whether or not they were actually bad about it is a different conversation. But in terms of conversation-wise, they were very much in tune and in sync with the things that I was talking about, so much to the point where a lot of that shit that my more radical friends brought up to me, they put on the table before I could even bring it up. Which on the level of where you're dealing with that level of state, it's like how they know how to do that? You know what I'm saying? Like I remember thinking that, like, oh, they oh, this is politics for real. Like these things. It was almost like stop right there, Taleb. I know what you're gonna say. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. What was interesting about that meeting that we don't talk enough about in terms of black people financial lit uh financial literacy. Um what's crazy about it is the first thing he said was, y'all gotta pay your taxes.
SPEAKER_01So you know I used that in a rhyme.
SPEAKER_00What you mean?
SPEAKER_01You told me that one night we was kicking it. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. Uh on a balcony. And we was kicking it on this at this thing in St. Louis at the after party of a little show you had out there.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01And I don't even know why you told me this. I must have been. I maybe was doing the most of buying a bunch of shit or something. And you said, you know what Obama told me, bro? He said, uh, make sure y'all rappers pay your taxes. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00And I said, so I said, uh He said, he said he uh he almost wasn't able to have the meeting because too many people had taxed issues. God damn.
SPEAKER_01I know I probably was on that list. That's probably why my plane uh was delayed, getting to DC that day. Get out of here with that. But uh I said uh Quali told me Obama told him make sure I pay my taxes. White man never gave us nothing. We come from the slaver brackets. I like that. I like that bar. Real bar spit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, man. This is let me ask you this. My name is Tyler Quali.
SPEAKER_01Um POE, man. We back up in here.
SPEAKER_00We forgot to say that. We were trying to get in right now because the YNs next door, the subwoofers is a subwooffin. And um, we wasn't sure if we could get it in, you know what I'm saying? Because we don't want to shut down the creative energy of the Y N's, man. They got to express themselves through the music because if they not doing the music, dog in there getting it.
SPEAKER_01I should have asked him who what his name is. I only seen one cat, but he in there getting it. He got the whole shice joint on, hoodie on, he in full character in there, dog.
SPEAKER_00They don't be hot with them masks on.
SPEAKER_01Man, I don't. I guess they say being black in America is hot. Fuck it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I feel that, man. How you doing, Tef Poe?
SPEAKER_01I'm chilling, man. Chelaxin. I've been having a good time in New York. It's kind of becoming my second home for real. You know, I'm out here a lot now.
SPEAKER_00Where's Brooklyn at? Welcome to Brooklyn, man. It's so good to be podcasted in Brooklyn and to be BK all day, man.
SPEAKER_01We are very close to the crib. Yeah, man, it's dope. Um, it's also dope just seeing East Coast hip-hop in a good ass place. I feel like every time I come out here, I'm just seeing the East in a good place, bro. You know what I'm saying? Like, um, I think that's important for hip-hop, you know what I'm saying? Break down what you see. I feel like um for a long time, being a non-East Coaster, if I had to critique East Coast hip-hop on a generational level, it would be the there was a breakdown from the OGs between the OGs and the generations. You know what I'm saying? Like, you would see niggas hold a whole bunch of respect for UGK, you know, period. That's a line we don't budge. You know what I'm saying? Like, like that's just law. You know what I'm saying? A ball of MJG, that's law. You know what I'm saying? 3-6 Mafia, that's law. You know what I'm saying? Certain outcast, law, you know what I'm saying? And I always felt like it should be the same way for a lot of the straight for real New York guys that was equivalent to that in terms of paving the way. And I felt like sometimes people would play around with those names and wouldn't, you know, act like these niggas were still them niggas when it came to them skills and them songs and the ability to perform and move these crowds. And now I feel like if you're paying attention to the trends, that's a strong resurgence of our era's version of the grandmasters. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a great point. Um, as you're making that point, I'm trying to figure out what that might be. And part of it is that hip-hop puts the new in New York. You know what I'm saying? A lot of it is about people looking for the new thing in New York. I think after hip-hop sort of the home of hip-hop moved from New York to more down south after a little while. New York had it for a long, long time. And there was a lot of elitism, elitism going on uh when New York was like really the home of hip-hop, but for a long time it's been down south, I think. And New York has been playing, trying to play ketchup. So, in the quest to play ketchup with southern sounds and southern attitudes and tones and inflections in the music, and a lot of that has to do with capitalism, right? Because it's about wanting to make that money. So it's like, well, they getting it, so I I have to copy what they doing in order for me to get it. You start to ignore what it is that you come from. You know what I'm saying? And I think that's part of like the success of people like Roselda and them because they tapped into that frequency and it was missing.
SPEAKER_01They played a huge role in bringing the real shit back, I would say. You know what I'm saying? The vibrations of it all, the image of it all, the feel of it all, they played a huge role in getting cats back on cold for what people expect a traditional East Coast hip-hop song to sound like. And I'm not trying to sound like a traditionalist, because I really ain't, but I think it's important that uh we give each region its opportunity to be its indigenous self. You know what I'm saying? Like, I want to hear niggas that come from there do what they would organically do without being tampered with. And I'll hear niggas is barbarians. Niggas pick a specific style of beat that niggas from other places ain't gonna pick. And if the culture is void of that, we start feeling it just start feeling like hip-hop is in a weird ass place, like weirdos is running the shit. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. For me, as an artist, you want to challenge yourself. I first came out and it was this particular type of sound that people expected from me, and I excelled at that and I was good at that. But then you get to a point where you're like, okay, I'm an artist. You want to try different things, and then people start to push back on you. And your natural inclination, if, in my opinion, if you're a real artist, to be like, fuck that, I'm gonna try anyway. And you try and you try, and some things hit and some things don't. But it took me a long time to get back to the place where I was like, I'm gonna lean back into what it is that I'm really, really good at, and to be able to do that on my own terms and do that in a very comfortable way. And now that's what I've been doing for the last couple of records. But I feel like even if I experiment again in the way that I used to, I'll do it in a more knowledgeable way and instead of a instead of a way that's more like anti.
SPEAKER_01So let me ask you this, bro. Have you heard of 314 Day? So we have a day that's like a citywide holiday where they celebrate anything from St. Louis, Missouri, because it's 314. So businesses know this, schools know this, churches know this. Any point of life is impacted by this. Uh, every March the 14th. Niggas be calling off work, violence decreases, jersey sales go up, it's parties everywhere. That's dope. Only St. Louis rappers. If you are associated with the music at the crib, activism at the crib, acting at the crib, basketball, if you got any type of fame, any type of clout, even if you're just a regular person, it's a citywide holiday. Okay. You know what I'm saying? We've been doing this for years now to the point where other cities are starting to pick up because they're like, yo, this shit is crazy.
SPEAKER_00That's dope.
SPEAKER_01Even on the radio, it's nothing but St. Louis oriented music. Now, I've always wondered what would a New York joint like that look like?
SPEAKER_00Well, one, there's too many area codes in New York. And they tr and they change too often. That's one.
SPEAKER_01Um, but yeah, I mean It's a citywide hood day, so you can make it any day you want. You can make it the birthday of hip-hop.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was about to say the only thing that you I've seen close to that that that you're describing is the 50th anniversary of hip-hop at Yankee Stadium. That felt like what you just described. Something where the whole city was involved, uh was involved and invited, and like hip-hop really belongs to the whole city. Was it J. Rue that we were talking about that said it's urban New York City culture?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right? Um, I I felt that, that resonated with me. Um, that Yankee Stadium thing felt like that. But yeah, we have Brooklyn Day. There's Manhattan Day, there's Queens Day, there's Brooklyn Queens Day, which is a thing. So it's that's one of the names of the album that I wanted to name the album with me and Large Professor. I wanted to name it uh Brooklyn Queens Day. Um, but he shot me down on that one. Oh, for real? Yeah. Dang, man. But Brooklyn Queens Day was like, you know, it was like a day in the park. It was like on some hip-hop shit. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01That's crazy, man. Shout out to my boy Young Dip, creator of 314 Day, man. That's just crazy ideas.
SPEAKER_00Wait, hold on. So 314 Day was created by somebody named Young Dip?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he's a radio DJ.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Brother, the black dude.
SPEAKER_00That makes me like it even more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, man. So me, him, and Dip is a real dude. Me, him, and Trader Truth mobbed around St. Louis on the north side uh when the tornado hit, uh helping folks who was trapped in their cribs, helping folks who was abandoned. Um and you know what I'm saying, it's it's dope for me to know real comrades in the hip-hop community who have done super cool shit already, but still, when it's like time to help a mom out in a house that's got a tree through her window, you know what I'm saying? No electricity, kids on the porch with snotty noses, and and we like, yo, how many kids you got up in there? And we helping this lady get this tree out of her shit. And I'm doing this with Trader Truth, Young Dip, Rock World, Knuckles. These are all rappers, you know what I'm saying? This show you the power of hip hop, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's amazing to me to be on the front line with actual MCs, like I'm in the Avengers or some shit. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00You tap in with those type MCs all the time, though. Um, I know you tapped in with Killer Mike, but I don't really know your origin story. How did you meet Killer Mike and how did you end up tapping in with him?
SPEAKER_01Crazy story, man. Um, it's kind of like a mythological story. I think Killer Mike tells it every time he does a big show at the crib to a degree. Um, it all starts with really DJ Trackstar.
SPEAKER_00Shout out to Trackstar.
SPEAKER_01Um, he, I feel like me and him and a few other people trailblazed the mixtape scene out there. Like we was going ham with it to the point where we were kind of problematic with how many mixtapes we was dropping. And Trackstar being Trackstar always had a vision that was bigger than just St. Louis. You know what I'm saying? You know, he always had an expansive vision. So he ended up putting himself in a situation where he had a direct relationship with Killer Mike. Um he did a dope ass mixtape on Mike that was pretty solid. But other than that, um, you know, they started to develop a genuine friendship, genuine relationship through different things. And Track ended up leaving St. Louis and moving to Atlanta. Um, so he was always my direct pathway into Killer Mike. Now, at this time, I work at the Marriott washing dishes. Um also gone on and off of well, I'm about to go on 106 in part.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01And um Track Star was like, yo, I think we can set it up so you can get Mike on the verse. Now I ain't gonna even stunt. Mike will tell you this because he says it every time. Um he gave me a super ridiculous play on the verse. Like, there's no way in hell you could get killer Mike on the verse for what I got him on the verse for. You know what I'm saying? Like, part of it was love and respect. And also, also, it was, we were both at a different place in life at that time where something like that was possible. So uh he came into the studio, we had it set up, but keep it real, I'm stupid working class at this time. So I don't even know how I'm finna even get the bread to pay the little bit of money that he actually asked for. Because that's basically my rent for the month. You know what I'm saying? So I'm uh stacking paychecks and shit, nigga. I'm um putting them bitches in my rhyme books. Like, this was like my first opportunity to get a feature from a respectable rapper that I actually liked. So I just took it over seriously. I think what you see from me sometimes is I have this kind of like autistic level of respect for the GOATs. You know what I'm saying? Where as an MC, it's this certain shit you don't do if you want to be solid in the culture, because this shit is gonna outlive your physical flesh. You know what I'm saying? So um I could tell that he probably felt I had a certain level of reverence for him and he he hooked us up, man. You know what I'm saying? And from there, I was able to go on tour with Ronda Jewels through Trackstar and uh LP and Mike. Uh, and as always, when I'm around. Like that, I just play my position, man. You know what I'm saying? I'm there to make shit better. You know what I'm saying? You know, like that's one thing Immortal Technique told me when I went on tour with him. He was like, at the end of the tour, I see why some of these cats keep you around, keep you around. You know what I'm saying? You specialize in trying to make shit better. You don't fuck shit up, you get out the way when you're supposed to get out the way, blah, blah, blah. And I I took that to heart coming from somebody like Tech, because he ran a fucking militant operation.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know what I'm saying? He's not playing. Yeah. So, and the hit to even hear that, that I ingratiated that in how I moved even in my own circle. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00Now, a couple of years ago, Ferguson, where I met you at, got his first black, was it first black mayor? First black female, first black female mayor. And this year got his first black.
SPEAKER_01St. Louis got his first black female mayor. We just got our first uh, I believe his first black mayor in the history of Ferguson right now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So um, you wrote a piece about that. Yeah, well, I ain't write about it yet. I wrote a note, but I'm I plan on writing about it maybe. But I'm gonna see how I feel about it for you. I don't know if I'm gonna be. How do you feel about it? I think it's crazy. Because I didn't even know that.
SPEAKER_00It's such a black place. I would assume what's the data as far as how black Ferguson is?
SPEAKER_01I don't know the percentage, but I'm gonna say hella black. High as fuck. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's so black to the point where uh if I don't want to see no white people, I don't have to. You know what I'm saying? Um, but I got actually for the first time in a very long time, I got white neighbors now. Directly across the street. A house that was empty as hell, for like vacantly empty. This dude this black dude rehabbed it and then he sold it. And the white dude moved in. And I bet at first I didn't want to talk to him because I'm like, we in goddamn Ferguson. This guy, racial polarity, I don't need to be talking to him. But dude, hella cool, man. He be putting books outside for the kids in the neighborhood to read. He be fixing motherfuckers' car for free and shit. You know what I'm saying? I'm sure we disagree on certain shit.
SPEAKER_00I mean, that's how they get in. I'm just playing, I'm just playing, I'm just playing. But I'm just playing, I'm sure you have amazing neighbors.
SPEAKER_01He got some type of working class ethic, you know what I'm saying? So that's where it falls into play, you know what I'm saying? But people like him be teaching me because coming from that type environment, I can't always broad stroke a motherfucker just because they might have a little bit of MAGA in them. You know what I'm saying? I gotta kind of Fred Hampton the shit and find the working class ethic in the shit. Yeah, so you know, I I learned a lot from people like him. Gateway to the West. It's life, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, man. I learned a lot from reading your writing. Um, you had another piece on Substack that was real interesting to me where you were talking about how men were never really providers, but how we benefited from a system that keeps women down.
SPEAKER_01Oh shit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I want you to break that down for the people watching this show.
SPEAKER_01Well, my exact context for it wasn't completely we benefit from a system of benefiting women down, even though that is the general framework of what somebody could pull from the from the article and from from one tier. The maximum view of what I'm saying is like I write about black male masculinity from a more tender position, from a position of trying to understand what I'm feeling and trying to put words to my own human nature in a way that I don't feel uh is even safe in the popular uh spirit of thought for me to be doing sometimes. But uh what I'm analyzing is the fact that we as brothers have been through something so traumatic that I don't know a version of myself that's not affected by capitalism. I don't know a version of myself that's not affected by European misogyny. I don't know a version of myself that doesn't have patriarchal obligations, no matter how much I say fuck some patriarchy going out in the world as a black man, I'm gonna have patriarchal goddamn obligations in this fucked up sphere of survival. So it's a system where sometimes I question if we are trying to help the next generation get to a place where they don't gotta deal with some of the traumas that we deal with that come from not being able to connect with black women in ways that we should, because we feel animosity about being in a certain position, or we feel a sense of vitriol around the fact that, yo, I gotta go out here and get it. And if I can't, then maybe you can't even find a way to love me around that. You know what I'm saying? Maybe I don't even got value at home if I can't produce something. And that's a hard feeling for a brother to have to deal with. And I don't think a lot of us know love that just exists in a natural way that isn't contingent upon some form of a transaction. And I don't even think we analyze that shit with what we're doing with our bodies, you know what I'm saying, physically, mentally, and sexually, because we can always make choices just like they can, just like anybody can. And I'm not even saying that on some unhealthy, toxic shit. I'm saying that on some like, if we are gonna start producing healthier people, then we can't always just be looking out the window at everybody else and their decisions. We gotta look at us sometimes too. You know what I'm saying? And the thing about me is I ain't trying to come off as perfect. You know what I'm saying? A lot of people wanna come off in these times as if they had the solutions. And I forgot who it was that said it was a comedian that said, if you bump into a motherfucker right now that's telling you they got it figured out, get the fuck away from them. So I ain't presenting myself as if I got it figured out. That's Dave. I thought that was Dave, right? Unstoppable nigga acting. I thought that was Dave. And I took that quote and kind of internalized it. Cause it's like, no, I ain't got it figured out. So now that I know I ain't got it figured out, let's rock and roll then. From this starting point of me, me being this level of real with y'all, let's rock and roll.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, another point you raised in that piece was how we refer to each other as kings. I've heard Nicki Giovanni give grace to black men who call themselves gods. He's like, if this black man needs to call himself God to feel better about his place in society and to get some shit done, I'm tend to oze in, you know, and I feel like it's the same thing with kings. It's like kings has never been on the side of the people, historically or traditionally. Karas one, you know, he was kind of going at Run DMC a little bit, you know, because he was Karis One was going at whoever the top was. But the the lyric holds true regardless, because it was a double entendre. It was he was going at Run DM C, but he was also going at the system. When he said teachers teach and do the world good, kings just rule and most are never understood. If you were to rule or govern a certain industry, all inside this room right now would be a misery. No one would get along or sing a song. Because everyone be singing for the king. Am I wrong? And now with these protests, now people be no King's Day. But black men, we call each other king. And we do it the same reason we call each other nigga. We do it to sort of bond with each other and lift each other up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but a lot of people are trying to find a substitute for the word nigga, right? And I respect that. And that's that's where I leave it at in real life. But in my personal overthinking things, deeply analytical mind who intellectualizes things that other people go you weird for doing that, um, I don't need the word king. You know what I'm saying? In any capacity, because I ain't I don't need to be king of the city, I don't need to be king of the house, I don't need to be king of nothing. Because in reality, whenever you watch them movies about the empire, it's always a nigga trying to smoke the king. It's always a nigga poisoning the king. The king always dying from fucking gout. Like, that's where the term long live the king comes from, because the king don't live motherfucking long. So you feel me? So Yeah, like a Mary Baraka said, we trying to live. You feel me? And also in the historical context of the word, not all the time, in every case, but in a lot of cases, uh those kings and queens had a radical dilemma for real, man. Um those colonial forces came to them and said, Look, this shit gonna go down, whether y'all motherfucking want it to go down or not. You know, those kings and queens had a radical dilemma. You know what I'm saying? I rap a lot about Queen of Zinga, and she was a complicated figure because she was a woman who lived in a society where she ain't had no patriarchy, right? She was the top dog. What you mean, bow down to these damn crackers? You know what I'm saying? Like, she had men on their knees in front of the white man, and she sat on their backs, you know what I'm saying? And I just think that's kind of profound. Like, even at that time, she had that type of moxia about herself. Now, at that time, I'm sure if you were not of close partnership with Queen Azinga, then you got a problem because she's finna give these folks some slaves.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it made me think of that uh the Woman King movie. And uh, you know, this is like you know what's crazy? This jacket I have on. I got this jacket in South Africa. It's it's it's a little tattered here, but it's just Diani and Amani. And uh a South African woman sold me this, and I told her to paint the red, black, and green on it. It's somewhere on here. Or yeah, red, black, and green on here. And um, yeah, man, this hip-hop shit is so beautiful, man. Yeah. Because it brought me from talking about Africa on Africa Dream and fantasizing and visualizing going to being able to really, really, really go for real. Yeah. Um man, man, I just thought I just thought because you were talking and I thought about this child.
SPEAKER_01Man, let me ask you something, bro. Now that I've been able to get a different perspective on your workflow and stuff, man, as a person who is independent, and I'm sure a lot of independent artists can pick up from this tool, as a person who's independent himself and onboarding different projects all the time, and being hands-on with them projects, uh, you the difference between you and a lot of people is A, the capacity in which you do you onboard and stuff, and B, the consistency and the longevity by which you've been able to do this. And me and Donna were talking about it earlier, how it's not like you ducking smoke on very confrontational positions while also being a man who is conducting a very complicated business. Um for those out there, you know what I'm saying, the the guys that's in the league hooping trying to get their jersey up there one day like yours. What is some advice about onboarding that type of stuff? And I'm speaking for real for the conscious artist more so than anybody else, because they would be the guys who got similar political opinions while also trying to conduct business like that.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think the first thing is to know that uh a couple of things. One, this idea that being an artist is a path to the riches and the fame is convoluted. It's not based in reality. It's very recent that rock and roll stars even exist. The poets and the bards and the painters and the singers and the songwriters and the grios for most of history are are broke people and poor people and people who live in poverty. That's how they're able to have the beautiful art because they are amongst the people. So, this idea, this capitalistic idea of that you that you go into the arts because you're gonna be rich and famous, that's not what it is. That's a mist. That's not something that actually exists. And the people who do that, um, it's a very small percentage of people who are very, very rich when it comes to music. And the most of the people get rich off of music are the people who take advantage of artists. The people who exploit the artists are the people who have the most money when it comes to the art, right? Yeah, yep. Truth. So that's the first thing. The second thing is you gotta go into it um not even trying to do that. Like you're not, the point has never been to make the money or gain the riches. If that's the point, you're not really a conscious artist. You know what I'm saying? Um and then once you understand all that and you still are trying to do business, I think it's about having a good team. Yeah. And the thing I learned about having a good team is that you have to be honest with your team, but you have to be honest with yourself first. Okay. The thing that I've learned the hard way is that you expect your business partners to have your back just because you do good business. But people fold like warm laundry when it's time for the real shit to happen. When the world is against you, you find out who your real friends are, and your friends are not fellow artists or business partners. So at this age, in this stage in my career, I didn't have a tour manager or a touring agent, uh booking agent, excuse me, booking agent for a long time or any type of partner on that level. And I just now am going back to having those type of partnerships. I've been doing it independent. But now, because I've been independent, I know how to do it. And um I'm a lot more confident in my skill set. So because I'm a lot more confident in my skill set, I'm more confident in who I hire. But uh when I go to people who I'm doing that level of business with, I'm telling them, like, look, um, I'm not gonna be promoting shit on social media. And I'm probably shadow banned from where you want me to promote. So don't, if it's something where I gotta promote on social media, that's not for me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, I'm gonna say free Palestine. Um, I'm gonna stand up for the movement for black lives. Um, I'm gonna be problematic in that way. Um, and you have to know that going in. And you have to really just get people prepared for what they're doing. And if that's just being strategic, if you could prepare people for what they're dealing with, um that can potentially and should create the freedom and space for you to be a conscious artist or an artist that can speak his his or her mind. And the uh the last thing I'll say about that is ownership. If you're owning your product and owning the ways in which you get your music out there, can't nobody tell you shit. You don't have a I don't have a boss. Um another piece of advice is get canceled. Go through that. Get canceled. I feel like I've been through that. Get canceled because once they do it, you can't kill what's already dead.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I feel like you gotta go through some of that shit on the internet to decrystallize yourself as an artist.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know what I mean? Like that's what I've been through because everybody ain't gonna love you. So it's like I don't give a fuck about the comments and all of that. I'm realizing the utility of what we're doing has the opportunity to not just change my life, but other people's lives. And that's what it's about for me, the impact to change lives. I'm still in love with the notion that as a human being, I can change somebody's life every day. And for me, that's the riches of life. You know what I'm saying? Maybe even to even even to a foolish notion. Um, and that's probably why, yeah, I'm hella quiet because sometimes I'm just naturally studying the room. I don't need to talk all the time. But also, when you get me in an isolated space, I will talk because I want to share the wisdom. I want to share the knowledge, I want to share the information, I want to share the spiritual vibes, I want to actually curate some style of a real connection. And I learned that more so from the artist's world than I did the political world.
SPEAKER_00I saw you do that with my son. Um, you have been working on this thing, this Sunday dinner thing, and my son has been working on these Sunday series of teachings and artistic uh exchanges of energies and information. And um, it was beautiful to see you powwowing with my with my son about that. And then you, and then for me to be able to sit down with you and I share my moms, came through. Like you really saw my foundation. You was really in my Brooklyn world and habitat for real.
SPEAKER_01It's crazy because, you know, not only are you tolered the MC, you know, you also are tolered uh, I don't like using the word activist as much as we do sometimes, but you are a tali-libed revolutionary spirited individual. And, you know, similar to myself, you try to live your life as close to that line as you can. You know what I mean? So what you've created for yourself, even amongst your family, is very uh, it very much reflects that value in you. You know what I'm saying? Like, uh your kids aren't counterintuitive to what you would expect Talib's children to be. You know what I'm saying? They're intellects, they're super artists, you know what I'm saying? So it's like that within itself is a vibe, you know what I'm saying? Because it's like, damn, this is the next generation of my dog's thought, you know what I'm saying? My dog's thought process being maturated in human form on the earth to do his own thing, you know what I'm saying? It's a real blessing.
SPEAKER_00It's a real privilege because not everybody has that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, a lot of people have great relationships with their children, but to have a great relationship with your children and they do what similar to what you do, um, it's a good feeling. Um I imagine some of that is hard on them to have a parent who is known for doing that, and you gotta find your own way. And I feel for them on that. And I can't imagine or relate to because I am my parents' uh son. I am very much like my father and very much like my mother. I think like them, I speak like them, I act like them, but I'm not in the same field as them.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's different. So, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it was real dope to see the Sunday dinner joint, the Sunday series come together, I should say. We do Sunday dinner at St. Louis. I work with an organization called Live Free. Um, it's a kind of like an organization that works to drop the violence in different cities, address gun violence, and we've been very effective all across the United States in different ways. Uh, and it's how I know a lot of the people that people would be like, man, how you know these people? Uh, because we've been on the front lines of different conversations, you know what I'm saying? And um I'm working to organize basically something on behalf of my brother, Pastor Mike, called Sunday Dinner, where we start bringing folks together all across the nation to essentially do what we just did build, eat, talk, connect, and also just think about some next steps for what we want to be as a community. You know what I'm saying? Outside the general framework of who they're telling us we are, how do we get back to the core of our own values, our own understanding of what's going on in our neighborhood without always having to rely on um some preconceived negative notion that we can't do it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I thought it was Kismet that my son was also cooking.
SPEAKER_01You know, he's doing Sunday dinner for real. He's taking it serious, man. Yeah, man. He's taking it real serious. What I respected about him is he doesn't have to do any of this. That's what I'm saying. But he is making a deliberate choice to be about certain things. And, you know, that just speaks speaks a lot to his character. Gotta respect the greens.
SPEAKER_00Well, Teff, this has been really dope, but I I got one more question I want to ask you before we wrap up this latest uh incarnation of let me ask you this. Um, I've talked about it before, how really Jay Cole is an important factor in how I come to know you. Yeah. Because he went to Ferguson, Missouri during the Ferguson Uprising. Rest in peace, Michael Brown, and he called me to ask me who I should tap in with. And that made me want to go down there. And I tapped in with you. Yeah. So shout out to Mr. Jermaine Cole.
SPEAKER_01Facts, man. Umest to ever do it, dog. I know a lot of people talk a lot of smack about Cuz, but Cuz Cole, man, you know what I'm saying? He's he's a beautiful lyricist. Like, he's so foundationally sound on some of the stuff he be writing. Like, and the fact that I saw something that made me have more respect for him than already had. Dude watches MC content the way somebody like me or Mickey Facts does. So he was doing podcasts, and he was talking about uh this joint that Killer Priest got called NASA Case. And I almost jumped up when he mentioned it, because I'm like, yo, nigga, you gotta be a super MC nerd nigga to know about NASA case, right? Shout out to Killer Priest, by the way. That's one of my um original rhymes. I love Priest, bro. Sparring partners from back in the day. Priest, the god, it's so cold, bro. But uh I was really fascinated by the fact that J. Cole was in that avenue of the internet. And he described it, discovering that the same way that I did. Because it wasn't like I'm sitting at the crib listening to Killer Priest every day. But on my own little MC research type stuff, sometimes I go, man, what is such and such on? What is cannabis doing? Let me spend a day just getting into new cannabis stuff. So I said, man, let me go into Killer Priest universe and see what he got. And I bumped into that damn NASA case, man. If if y'all want to just weird yourself out, roll a doobie. Not roll a doobie. What is this? 1976? I call it doobies. And you gotta roll you a big old doobie. Sit in front of the TV and watch that damn. NASA case, it's gonna fuck you up. Man, that's all I can say. It's so, it's so written, it's written like the Bible. Like it's crazy. Okay. That's all I gotta say about it.
SPEAKER_00Killer Priest actually wrote a song called Bible, so yeah, basic instructions before leaving Earth. Basic instructions before leaving Earth. Man, shout out to Killer Priest. This is what I want to ask you. Let me ask you this. Okay. On your Substack, you said most of my rap predictions about J. Cole were completely wrong. You didn't explain, you didn't give no context. Yeah. So I want to give you an opportunity to explain what you meant by that statement.
SPEAKER_01As a fan, what I was talking about was for this album.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01This new album. Yeah. I couldn't predict what this album was going to be if I wanted to. You know what I'm saying? Like, sometimes you as a as a hip hop journalist, you use a little piece of metadata or a little piece of this or a little piece of that, and you try to pull as much together as you can. And since you do got some knowledge of the game and you got some friends in the game, and you can hear some whispers and some murmurs, you try to create your own assumptions about what might be happening. And I don't know why I thought certain features was gonna be on this joint. You know what I'm saying? I thought um certain things would be addressed from a certain angle. You know what I'm saying? And he just really just what he kind of did this time around felt like something that a lot of us independent slash underground niggas want to do one day. Like I would love to just be like, fuck it, y'all. Here go 40 fucking songs. Right. You know what I'm saying? Right. I don't give a damn how y'all feel about it for real. You know what I'm saying? Because I know they mixed to the to the best that they can be mixed. I know I'm rapping my ass off on them. What I'm saying is what I'm saying. How I feel is how I feel. The track listing is what I put together. This is what I did for me, and I'm done. Yeah. No doubt. I would love to do that. No doubt. I feel you. I understand. You feel me? I understand, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, when you be putting out a project, you gotta do so much self-editing and like, come on, man. Like, it it it just ain't a lot of freedom in that space like it used to be. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, man.
SPEAKER_00Well, shout out to Razcass. Um, as you know, we have the episode with Razkaz. Yeah. In the episode with Razcass, he's one of my favorite rappers, bro, all time. He said, uh, I like to take niggas that was in groups together and put them on songs together without them knowing. So Razcass sent me a song to do, which I told him I would do, but that's some Razcass shit. He just texts me and he's like, he just texts me the song and High Tech made the beat. Oh, wow. Razkas trying to get a Reflection Eternal song for the Tyler Quali Price. I see you, Razzie. I see what's going on. Anyway, that would that's just what happened to me just now. So I'm in uh KRS about to go on tour. Razkaz. We in the studio, I'm about to get in the lab and uh get Razcass's verse.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah? Yeah. Damn, that's crazy. Yeah. What's up, OG, man? I love you, bro. You wanted the best. It was a gift to meet you, dog. We so damn similar, it's crazy. You know what I'm saying? Like, man. Off camera, me and Raz Cass was out back kicking it. Yeah, yeah, y'all the same nigga. Oh, man, it was dope. That was fun, Taf. Yeah. Yo, I want to shout out some artists, man, back at the crib. Uh, KV the writer, uh, my my dog Rockwell Knuckles. Uh two people that's really pushing the line with some super creative new projects that they've been dropping. KV got this new joint where she went at Wesley Bell. Sounds like some shit you would do. What I respect about it is we are now in a terrain of music in this era where I don't gotta do all that all the time. Okay. It's other people who are gonna handle the business. I got my shit. And they're gonna handle the business for me. From an angle that I ain't gonna handle it. So that's what I like. You know what I'm saying? And I'm saying it on camera because it's important to say it. That's the type of MCs that I'm passing the baton to personally. Like people that, Lord forbid, if I can't continue the mission, I know the mission is gonna get continued with somebody like that. You know what I'm saying? No doubt.
SPEAKER_00Shout out to the crib, STL, Brooklyn.
SPEAKER_01Let me ask you this. I feel like I'm Patrice Lamont. Never catch me on no lack and I can't keep it music. I feel like I'm Patrice Lamont. Never catch me on no lack and I can't keep it music.