How the Military Teaches Better Leadership Through Planning

Summary
In this engaging interview, Simon Kardynal, a Canadian military veteran and leadership expert, shares insights on leadership evolution, building trust in groups, handling emotional moments in retreats, and the importance of self-awareness. Discover practical advice for retreat leaders and leaders in any field to enhance their leadership skills and foster a positive, resilient environment.




Takeaways
Leadership evolution in military vs civilian life
Building trust in new groups during retreats
Handling emotional and transformational moments responsibly
The role of self-awareness and accountability in leadership
Adapting leadership skills from high-pressure environments to retreats



Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Leadership and Canadian Myths
03:27 Evolution of Leadership in the Military
06:27 Understanding Leadership Assumptions
08:14 Building Trust in New Groups
09:23 Guiding vs. Fixing People
10:42 Handling High-Pressure Situations
11:58 The Role of a Cheerleader in Leadership
13:29 Characteristics of Great Leaders
14:28 Navigating Leadership Challenges
16:43 Handling Emotional Moments in Leadership
17:34 Influence of Fatherhood on Leadership
19:12 Lessons from Parenting
21:44 Rapid Fire Leadership Insights
23:03 RNR Outro Final.mp4
23:42 RR.Gift.RetreatRnR.com.mp4


🔗 Connect with Simon Kardynal | Trench Leadership
📧 Email: simonk@trenchleadership.ca
🌐 Website: www.trenchleadership.ca
📘 Facebook: trenchleadership
📸 Instagram: @trench_leadership


🔗 Connect with Holly Porter | Retreat RNR 
📧 Email: holly@hollyporter.com 
🔗 LinkedIn: Holly Porter | Retreat RNR 
🎵 TikTok: @retreatrnr 
▶️ YouTube: @intlretreatassociation
📸 Instagram: @retreatrnr | @hollyporterinternational 
📘 Facebook: HollyAnnPorter

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to All Things Retreat Podcast. I'm Holly Porter, your host and CEO of Retreat R R. With over 25 years of experience in designing transformative retreats, I'm here to share insights and inspiration to help you create extraordinary experiences. Whether you're a pro or just starting out, you'll find valuable ideas here. Enjoy the ride. Let's dive in. Hello and welcome to the show, everybody. Glad you're joining us today. Hopefully, you will leave with some inspiration and new ideas on how you can move your retreat business forward. Today we're going to be talking about leadership. And I have a great guest, Simon Cardinal. He's a Canadian leader, proud dad, and a 26-year veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces. His career spans from infantryman to senior leader in aircraft maintenance. And today he's passionate about helping emerging emerging leaders build strong foundations. He's also the host of his own podcast show called Leadership Podcast or called Trench Leadership, excuse me. Welcome to the show, Simon. Thank you so much for having me here. This is a real pleasure. It's been a long time. Yeah, I know. I I was a guest on Simon's show, and I thought, wow, that he'd be a great guest for us because retreat leaders have leader in the name. So why wouldn't we talk about leadership? It just makes sense. It does make sense. So so he's gonna put his little uh retreat thinking leader cap on today, and I'll I'll probably I'll probably give him some questions. I don't think they'll stump him because he's a leader and he knows how to step up to the plate and lead. Uh that I hope so. Anyways, I hope that's what people think. Uh thank you so much for having me. Uh before we get into it, D, do you mind if I just take two seconds and dispel some Canadian myths? Absolutely. All right. So so the first one is this everyone thinks, or many people think, I don't know why I lump everyone into it. It Canada is known for being polite country. Very, very polite. And sure, I would argue that most people are polite, but you do not want to cross a Canadian while we're driving. If you cut us off, you'll see a certain finger, probably two of them, flying up at you, and there'll be some headlights flashing and stuff. And yeah, they're that's when our Canadian road regularly kicks in. So they're not always pleasant. It's interesting. So um, let's see. Oh yeah, maple syrup. I don't like maple syrup. I don't know what the big deal is. They'll probably yank my Canadian card for that, but it's worth it. Not good. Also, it's the best in oatmeal. What do you mean? Maybe in oatmeal for sure. And then a little drizzles and stuff, but we maybe we go crazy up here. We put maple syrup on everything, and I just don't get it. Uh also, poutine. It's just a lump of cheese and then some gravy and potatoes. Not that great. Not not according to me. I've never had it. Yeah, well, next time when you come up to Ottawa, we'll go get you some. It'll you'll uh you'll you'll need a nap afterwards, but it's great. You know, it's a lot of fun. And uh the last thing is no one in Canada says a boot. It's not a word. We don't say it. We all say about it's it's just a thing. So okay. So when I hear it, it's just me not hearing it right. Yeah, that's exactly it. It's it's not us. Okay. Okay, got it. Well, I'm glad we clarified all that. Well, thank you for letting me get that out there. I love to spread the word. I love it. Well, okay, you ready to get into a few questions? Yeah, absolutely. Let's do this. Okay, so you spent over 26 years in or spending uh years in the Canadian Armed Forces. What did leadership look like for you in the early days versus later in your career? Uh that that's uh I will be as brief as I can be. That is a loaded question. It is. Uh so I joined way back in 1994. And uh at the time, I really honestly what did it look like then? I don't really know because I was a private. My job was to do what I was told, and I was moderately good at that. And so the thing was that what I my perception was that it was a very gruff, and especially in the infantry, it was very gruff, it was very quiet. You know, that is the sergeant, that is the thing, and the chain of command was very clearly defined. Because of that, it was easy to be a private. I just did what I was told, and that was that was it. That was the end of it. And away we went. But when I would when I joined the Air Force, because there's a program, a program where we can switch our trades and get retrained, I did that. And all of a sudden, I'm a technician in an entirely different world than the Canadian Air Force, the Royal Canadian Air Force. Okay. And all of a sudden, I went from being told what to do to people asking me what I think, and I'm only a corporal, which is just one rank higher. In the infantry, that corporal rank is it matters, but in the Air Force, it still matters, but it's different because the Air Force tends to look at things, especially in the air maintenance trades, in a more collaborative approach. Meaning a great example would be a corporal, a master corporal, and a sergeant. So the next three ranks are all standing around this airplane, they're trying to figure out how to fix it. It could very well be that that corporal is going to have the best answer and the most experience simply because they've been on that airframe longer. The sergeant and the master corporal are brand new posted in, and they just don't know anything about the airplane. Even though they're higher ranks, it doesn't matter because we're looking at the level of experience. Now, in the infantry, the sergeant is going to win 150% of the time because they've all been doing the same thing. They're all infantry sergeants, and the infantry is the same with the RCRs, with the Van Due, with uh the PPC LI here in Canada. It's the same, it's the same. Oh, but you get the idea. So that was then, so it was very graph. And we just and the other thing is we just didn't talk about our emotions. That was for silly people, and we just buried everything down. That that never worked, but that's what it was then. Now, now it's very, very different. We have the Canadian military has gone through some significant culture changes, and we had no choice because we were treating people very, very poorly, especially if I can be completely blunt, especially if they weren't white men. That's just a fact. There was a club there, and until very recently, that club pretty much got to do what they wanted to do. And it was not ex-I don't want to say it was accepted, but certainly eyes were turned the other direction. Not good, fortunately, and it's taken a long time. We're talking about about 15-20 years so far of significant changes happening, of forcing culture changes that was being pre just ripped out of the hands of the people that were really enjoying the benefits of it. And it finally that's all moved on. And we have, I believe, turned that corner and we've changed towards a culture that is truly more collaborative and understanding that not everyone needs to look the same and feel the same and think the same. Certain times in the military that's required, but not all the time. So now it's much, much better. It's not perfect, not by a long shot. But the great thing is the military is doing its very best to stay ahead of it and keep learning and understand that culture is not something you fix and you walk away. Culture is something that is always evolving. If you think you fixed your culture, you haven't, you're behind. And that's what something took the military a long time to get to. I know it's a little bit long-winded, but it's a it's a broad topic. Well, I feel like you kind of like opened the curtain and let us peek behind just a little bit. I yeah, it was it's it's yes. Yeah, it's wild. We'll check it out in the news. It's crazy. I know you probably have a lot of lessons, but what's one that you can think of from the military that most civilians completely misunderstand? Uh and we're talking about leadership specific, right? I guess. Um leadership lessons. Yeah, yeah. So uh the biggest thing I would say is to remember that when you're going along and doing your things, to not make any assumptions about what you're doing. And we're all doing that all the time. It doesn't matter what you're happening, what you've got going on, you are making assumptions. And that's okay. I'm not saying assumptions are bad. It's about recognizing when it's happening. And the great thing about the military is when we are building our plans, we are going out of our way to try and think about every possible scenario that could happen and come up with a plan and then a backup plan and then a backup to the backup plan. Now, of course, you're never gonna capture everything because sometimes things are just weird. But that need to be prepared and understanding about it helps the military members look a broader than just the tip of the plan that's happening. And it helps us to ask questions, understand that if we don't know, we're gonna go there. And we have to ask those questions. I will say though, the challenge, and I found this in the private industry, is the challenge the private industry has a better opportunity to say, well, what don't we know? They ask that question. Whereas the military is not good at that because it's like admitting you're weak. So we have to figure that out and we go and we do it. Uh so the strength is that we can look, uh, but maybe not as far broadly as we need to. Okay. Yeah, I like that. Um, this'll this will be a really good one for retreat leaders because as we bring them in, first time coming, you're bringing a group into your retreat. Um, how would you suggest they build trust quickly with that group of people if they've just met them? Uh, you know, I a lot of people, it's a great question. I'll start by saying that. A lot of people poo-poo on on icebreakers. And I did too. I thought, ah, this is a waste of time. I don't get the point. Until I did an icebreaker that was not related to the military. And I thought, okay, okay, I see the value in this. So I will say icebreakers, uh, but but specific icebreakers. My recommendation is the person leading leading the group would be to find out what people like to do and then find something that they don't like to do and do the thing they don't like to do and see how they're gonna force people to work together. Put people on edge a little bit, not not terribly, but just enough to know that they're on their heels. Often when I'm running these types of things, I set up some type of baking challenge. Okay, you're all gonna cook, make some cookies, figure it out, and come up with the recipe. And they gotta go and they gotta figure it out. And usually the cookies are not bad, sometimes they're incredible. And I've had a couple that tip my tongue and they fell right back on the floor, but that's also fun too. Because it's not about whether it's a good cookie or not, it's about how they came up with it together. And the lead person leading that group, you really get to see group dynamics when they're under stress, they've got to get it done and they've got to come up with everything. It's a lot of fun. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, icebreakers would have been top of my list too. I I think that's always a good way to do a group. So, what's the difference between guiding people and trying to fix them? Yeah. So, guiding people, that's a that's also so so many good questions. Guiding people, in my opinion, is taking that uh that person on a journey and helping them find the way on that path. It might be dark. I like to imagine it's dark, it's just the sun setting. You can see the path, but it's starting to get hard to see. That's and we are helping that member follow that path, stay on the trail. You know, and and and the other, what was the other one? Was guiding and sorry. Guiding people and trying to fix them. Oh, yeah, trying to fix them. Uh so that is that is you saying, okay, we're going on a path. Let's go. And when we get here, pay attention. And when we get here, you're fixed. That is us being very directive in how it's going to happen. Sometimes that's that's something that sometimes that's what's needed. Often, though, if we're at a retreat for leaders, it's about helping them get to those points. It's about helping them see that they don't know what they're doing. And that's okay. Being comfortable in the uncomfortable. Yeah. Well, and it's also you're assuming they're broken. Like according to who are they broken? Exactly. Maybe maybe we should ask a question. Staying curious is it's in my personal leadership statement, leadership mission statement. And it's the basic tenet of all things leadership. If you don't ask questions, you are not leading, you're managing. That's my opinion of it. Yeah. I tell that sounds like um, I'm sitting in a sales training. That's the same advice. Well, I must be on to something. Be curious and ask questions. Um so you've led in high pressure environments. How do you see that translating into leading a retreat experience? Well, I uh often a high pressure environment is because is created because something goes haywire. And I have to assume that in a retreat, you don't you you can have the best laid plans, but then all of a sudden the one of the kitchen staff gets sick. So one of one of your your concierge people is not working well, all of a sudden it rains too bad or the boats sink or whatever. You know, you don't know the power goes out. You can plan for all those things, but I can tell you where I've been in situations where the power went out. We said, okay, well, no big deal. We'll go to the generator. We go to the generator, the generators out of fuel. We go to the backup generator, it's missing. And it's the middle of winter and people are getting cold. What do we do? We had no we we couldn't plan for that. We figured it out. And it didn't look fun, but we got it, and basically it meant basically what it meant was 30 men, grown men, huddled together under a bunch of blankets until we got could get some backup. So, well, we figured it out and we got it. And that's the thing. I think my my recommendation would be to remember that as you're figuring out those plans, they don't need to be perfect. Really, all you're doing is you're assuring your team that you are doing something. It might not be the best plan, and that's okay. And my second piece of advice would be to if someone comes to you with an idea, it's okay if it's their idea. All that matters is you have an idea that everyone is safe and we're figuring it out. Doesn't matter where it comes from. So be open to those plans. I love, I keep hearing the word in my head as you're saying that be the best cheerleader for someone else. Like you just were that for me. Before we started the show, I'll just say I I'm launching International Retreat Association next week. And so high stress. All tabs are open on my computer, which crashed earlier, and it's a lot going on. And what did you what did you share? Let's share what you uh what you said to me. Yeah, I'd be happy to do that. Thank you. Um I'm blushing a little tiny bit right now. Uh so what I said was things are gonna go all right. You will experience mistakes. That that's just the way it's gonna be. But but you are equipped to handle it. You have been doing this a long time, you know what you need to do, and you know you can roll with those punches. So just do it. You are more than enough, and you've got every right to be at that table. So just go and crush it. You can do it. And thank you for that. And and it just fit right into what we were just talking about. And as a retreat leader and leaders listening, it's it's like you're right, things are gonna go wrong. We already know that, right? How you handle them, how you react to the situations is gonna be a true leadership skill. And being people's cheerleader, like I feel like retreat leaders are cheerleaders. I feel like that's that's a huge role. Like that that should be your your tag. Oh, I totally agree with that cheerleader. Absolutely. You're in all the high school stuff that we always believed behind it, and let's just say it for what it is now, right? Yeah, exactly. All of a sudden, oh well, they were right, they were onto something. What do you think separates a good leader from a truly great one in your experience? I think that is a good question. I think a truly inspirational, great, phenomenal, amazing leader is the person who's doing it and doesn't know they're doing it. They're just in it. I think a great leader can know they're doing a good job, like, yeah, this is going really well. This is fantastic, and they're they're they're aware of it, but that person that transcends into that next role is they have no idea. They're just in it. It's like this Zen moment and they're just kind of floating along. And you can always tell when that person's in it because everyone else is watching and going, what is happening there? And it's like they're floating on the ground and and you just know it. And everything just makes sense. And it's it's incredible to watch. It's rare, but those moments are beautiful to see. I have yet to do it. But I'll get there. That's awesome. Um, many retreat leaders, they're amazing. They know their craft, they they're great at what they do. Um, but you know, there's personality styles that are involved in this, or maybe they're an introvert. They're struggling with leading people. Okay. Let's just use that scenario. What advice would you give them? Well, I think if they're struggling, my advice would be to remember why you got into that position. Like most often, I don't want to say always, but most often, we don't get put into our first leadership roles because of our proven leadership skill set. We get put into those first roles because of our proven technical skill set. And what the example I love to use is I I'm I'm a I'm I'm gonna get a craft grade welder. So imagine there's five of us around and they come up to me and say, Hey Simon, you're the best welder on this team. You must be able to lead those other three welders. There's no guarantee of that. All I've proven is that I can run a bead. So how do we know we do that? Then you get put into there and then the testing starts. It's going to be okay if you struggle. It's going to be okay when you make those mistakes. It's going to be okay when you do them again. And again, what matters is that how you choose to get up from that and learn from those things. Are you gonna are you gonna let that be the thing that crushes you? Are you gonna be let that thing that helps you learn and refine those skills? I have had, especially when I was a new master corporal, the first our first formal position of leadership, I made so many mistakes. I would, I still say to this day, I had no right being in that rank level. None, none whatsoever. I was not prepared for it. And I got better, but I was not a good, in my opinion, I was not a good master corporal. I was a better sergeant because I was aware I struggled in that first rank level. That's okay. I I figured it out. I mean, I'm a chief warrantic now, so I I must have been doing something all right. Yeah. Well, well, and that awareness, I think as soon as I think accountability and awareness has to come in the in the leadership picture somewhere. And that's how we learn and that's how we grow, and that's why you got better. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Uh Tasha Yurik wrote a book about called Inspiration, and she talks about the surprising truths around feedback and understanding the importance of self-awareness. I just finished that book and uh the whole time I'm like, yes, oh yeah, incredible. And it's just it's it teaches us the importance of understanding we need to look at ourselves, we need to look inwardly and accept the fact that there's gonna be some stuff we don't like, there's gonna be some things that will make us cringe, but there are a lot of things that we get to be super proud of. Yeah, human nature is fight or flight, and often the the the runaway portion is us being the nuclear options and telling ourselves we don't deserve to be there, we don't deserve a seat at that table. Why am I here? Yada yada yada. Imposter syndrome. We've we've earned that right. You can trust yourself. Yeah, for sure. Retreats often involve emotional or transformational moments. How should leaders handle those responsibly? Yeah, you know, that is that's a tough one. I guess it it would really depend on what's happening. I would suggest that the leader really needs to be in tune with the vibe of the group. Is it is it is a joyous group? Can we laugh? Can we can we think? Or are people taking it really, really seriously and really deeply? Okay, that's fine. Figure that out. And then take the pulse of the group and the leader runs with that. Because remember, leading isn't about being in charge of this, leading is about understanding where it is and helping it go on the path you can see it going towards. And so if they're going that route, let it go, let it do its thing. If they're laughing, laugh. If they're not, don't just figure it out. The only thing I'd say is if you see 10 people over here and they're laughing and there's uh number 11's not, maybe you take a moment and figure that out. There might be a reason why. Yeah. I and yeah, definitely being in tune with your audience in any case, for sure. I love that. How's becoming a father influenced the way that you lead and show up in the world? Uh many, many, many, many ways. So being a father in general has uh made me a better human being and a better person, for sure. I especially I have a daughter, and my 24-year-old lives out in Vancouver, British Columbia, which is the I'm in eastern Canada. She's as far west as you can get. And yeah, it breaks my heart. She's a good kid. But what it reminded me is that how do I put this? You know, don't be a jerk. Like I was a bit of a, when I was younger, I was a bit of a misogynistic prick. To be completely honest, I hate to put it out there. I was just not a like, I was just immature. And having a daughter made me realize that, you know, everyone is equal. Like everyone has these things. I was unaware of the the privilege that I had for being a Caucasian male. And all of a sudden I'm seeing my daughter, she's growing up. There, people are trying to hold her back simply because she's not a Caucasian male. And I that infuriated me. And that made me realize we need to be better people, we need to be open our eyes to everything that's out there and accept that just because we're a little bit different doesn't make us wrong, doesn't make us better, or we're worse, just makes us different. And those differences are strengths, they are not weaknesses. My daughters teach me that all the time, and I I'm very lucky. Yeah, our our kids are our biggest lessons. We raised eight, and they're all adults now. It's like lots of lessons. That's a lot of lessons. I got I've got one, and I don't know how you do that. 19 grandkids. Now we're seeing we've got a few that have graduated from high school that are grandkids, and now we're seeing that that step of life. And oh yeah, it's it's definitely um uh challenges your skills all the time. Can I can I ask you a question about that? Sure. So did you see it? Have you seen a difference in how you your leadership uh showed up between your children and your grandchildren? Oh yeah. I I feel like um I want to do over, you know, not I don't want to live teenagers again. We had like seven in the house one time. Um it was nuts. Yeah, definitely. But I'm not so quick to give advice to my adult parent children because they need to figure it out on their own, you know. But I but I try to say healing things like the grandkids if they're struggling, or if they say something about the parent, especially as if they're teenagers. It's like I always try to think of like healing moments, like a different perspective. Oh, well, when this happened, or I try to think of a story of what their parent did to me, you know, and try to just like have them see it from oh, oh yeah, they were a teenager too once. I remember my mom saying in that, she said, you know, this is my first time being a parent. I didn't you didn't come with an instruction book. Uh we're just figuring it out as we go. And isn't that the truth with all parents? And I think sometimes the children don't realize that until they become parents themselves, and they're like, oh, wow, what did I learn? Or I'm not going to be anything like my parent, and then you're exactly like your parent in your parenting. Oh, yeah. I uh I I have a quick story, if I may. Um, so I'm I'm a little bit uh particular in how I like certain things done around the house. Some would say a little just a smidge of OCD, but uh uh I'm definitely particular, and especially when it comes to loading the dishwasher. I am so sick of pulling a fork out of the thing and it's covered in stuff because they were sitting behind each other. And so my daughter and I would do the dishes often, and she would just basically throw them in from the other side of the house, and of course, where they landed is where they landed. And I would lose my mind when I'd go to empty the dishwasher, and there's just stuff everywhere, and half of them get rewashed again. So I would, being the typical dad of Anne, I started, you know, go and tell her, hey, this is what it is. Eventually it got to the point where I'd see it like that. I'd take everything out of the dishwasher, throw it in the sink, go upstairs, get her to bed, take her back downstairs, clean this, and this is why you need to line everything up. And it was perfect, it was beautiful. I'm happy, and she is giving me super scowls. Flash forward, now she's in Vancouver, she's living with her boyfriend in her house or in the condo. They have a mini dishwasher, and she, through training and programming, some could say, has she has learned how to do that. And her boyfriend has never loaded a dishwasher before. So he's now just throwing them in there, and she's losing her mind. And so I'm talking to her on the phone one day. She's like, Dad, I uh I I I don't I can't believe I have to say this, but I think you were right. I I understand why you were doing that with the dishwasher. I was like, Yes, I knew it. There was a uh ending to my madness. Exactly. Yeah, it was good. A good moment. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, we could talk about them all day. Well, okay, I got just a couple little fast uh rapid fire questions for you. You ready? All right, no answers incorrect, just whatever's top of mind. Coffee or tea? Oh, coffee, 100% of the time. One word that describes great leadership. Inspiration, impact, impact, impact, discipline or motivation? Intertwined. I think. I think I know your answer to this one. Book or podcast. Oh, podcast. Oh yeah. Uh run or ride. Run. All right. Biggest strength as a leader. Oh, sorry, you cut off for just one split second there. Biggest strength as a leader. Empathy. Good one. Okay, I'm going to put your website and the show notes. Any last words for our listeners? Well, just thank you for the time for this. This has been fantastic. If anyone is interested in reaching out, my contact information is inside the website. You could go to trenchleadership.ca. Uh, my email's all in there, all that different stuff. If you really want to just have a personal one, hit me on uh LinkedIn. That's the number one place I use it. Simon Cardinal or Trench Leadership, a podcast from the front. Okay, and that'll be the show notes as well. So we'll we'll make sure you can do that. So, yeah, if you want to uh talk to Simon a little deeper on leadership, he's a great one. And it's been a great show, and I appreciate you coming on and sharing your words of wisdom with our listeners. Thank you so much for having me. This was a lot of fun. Well, you're great. All right, okay, everybody, till next time. We'll see you then. Bye for now. Thanks for joining us on this episode of All Things Retreat. We hope you're leaving with new ideas, fresh inspiration, and the motivation to take your retreats to the next level. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. It helps us grow and reach more retreat leaders like you. And if you have any questions, topics you'd like us to cover, or just want to say hello, send us an email at infoweetreatrnr.com. Follow us on social media to stay connected and catch all the latest updates. Until next time. Remember, great retreats start with great intentions. Let's make them extraordinary one step at a time. Thinking about hosting a retreat. Before you dive in, let's make sure you're really ready. Grab your free Are You Retreat Ready checklist and find out if you've got everything in place from your purpose to pricing to your audience and agenda. Don't guess. Get clear. This quick checklist will show you exactly where you stand and what you need to make your retreat a success. Click the link below in the show notes to grab your gift and take the first step toward hosting conference.