Episode 4- Fannying Around with Katie

Is It Perimenopause… or Do I Just Hate Everyone?

In this episode of Fannying Around, we chat with Katie — global events boss, mum of three, and a woman juggling a big career, teenagers, school runs and the creeping suspicion that something hormonal might be going on.

Katie is almost 42 and loving life… most of the time. But like many women entering perimenopause, she’s started noticing some strange shifts. One minute everything feels overwhelming and everyone is annoying. The next minute she’s fine again. Sound familiar?

We talk about the slow creep of perimenopause symptoms, mood swings, intrusive thoughts, anxiety, and why so many women don’t recognise what’s happening until they’re already deep in it.

Katie shares how she’s approaching midlife with a positive mindset, from taking small “micro moments” for herself (sometimes hiding in the car for five minutes of peace) to learning how to say no without guilt.

Along the way we also discuss:

•  Why perimenopause often starts earlier than we think 
•  How symptoms can creep in quietly 
•  Why women are often misdiagnosed with anxiety or depression 
•  The importance of understanding your hormones 
•  Practical ways to look after your body and mind during midlife 

This is an honest, funny and reassuring conversation about navigating perimenopause while still living a very full life.

Because menopause isn’t the end of anything — it’s just another chapter.

And sometimes… yes… it might explain why everyone is suddenly so annoying!

🎧 Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

This episode is supported by the Women's Health Clinic. At the Women's Health Clinic, you'll be seen by our accredited menopause specialists working to the latest international clinical guidance. We believe that knowledge is power. When you understand what's changing in your body and why, you can make decisions with clarity and confidence and feel back in control of your health. We really take the time to listen to your symptoms using evidence-based assessment and testing where appropriate and explain what's happening in a way that actually makes sense. From there, we support women to explore all effective treatment options, including prescriptions when needed. Our aim is simple to optimise women's health care wherever you are. No funnying around. Find out more at thewomen's Healthclinic.eu.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Hello, welcome back. Fannying Around Episode 4, the podcast where we talk hormones, women's health, sex, sanity, and all the other bits of life that can suddenly go a bit sideways. I'm Rosie. I'm here with Katie, Menopause's nurse, specialist, hormone whisperer, and the woman most likely to explain your entire personality shift with alarming accuracy. Today we're fannying around with another Katie. Katie is 42, works in global events for a very big company. She has three children, a nice husband, a very full life, and by all appearances, is absolutely holding it together. Which is why this episode begins with one very important question. Is it perimenopause or do I just hate everyone? If you've ever found yourself irrationally furious at somebody breathing near you, repulsed by the sound of your partner chewing or quietly planning a divorce over absolutely nothing, then this one may be for you. Katie talks about perimenopause not as some tragic decline into beige cardigans and women's troubles, but as a kind of midlife rebirth, a shift, a rewiring, a point where you stop trying to be everything to everyone and start listening to what your body actually needs. We talk about careers, kids, hormones, intrusive thoughts, micro moments of self-preservation, and why sometimes the most important thing a woman can do is just sit in the car for five minutes in complete silence. Yes, you know what we mean. Most importantly, we talk about the fact that menopause is not something that just happens to old ladies. It's a midlife thing, a busy life thing, a trying to hold it all together thing. And if you know what is happening, it doesn't have to be something you simply suffer through. Right then, let's fanny around with Katie.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Katie, thank you so so much for talking to us today. I'm very happy about this. When you said you'd do it, I was like, Kieran, guess who says they're gonna talk to us? Katie Bradley's gonna talk to me.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Oh, good. Yes, here I am. No, I was delighted. I saw, I think I must have responded within about two seconds. I was like, oh, this looks good. Me, please. Hands up, hand up. So, yeah, amazing thing to do. And so far, I have to say, I really enjoyed the episode with Taz. We were talking about it, weren't we, Rosie? So, yeah, I'm really pleased to be part of it. How amazing.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

We were talking uh about it, and you said you were worried that you didn't have any milestone moments and you weren't sure that your episode was going to cut it, but I have absolute confidence that your episode is gonna be up there with the best.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

I think a good intro to the to the to the chat actually is so Katie, for everyone listening, Katie is a very good friend of my or an old friend of my husband's and a wonderful friend. And I put out on Facebook saying who wants to chat about, you know, hormones, and Katie agreed, but we're having a bit of back and forth, and Katie was saying, Well, you know, I just don't know whether I've got anything to say. I don't know whether I've got any kind of major things to talk about. What's my story? And I was like, Well, you know, I'm sure we'll find something. She said, I just don't even know if it is perimenopause. Do I just hate everyone? And I was like, Well, Katie, there we go. That's it, isn't it? Is it perimenopause or do I hate everyone?

SPEAKER_03 4:43

Exactly. So talk to us a little bit about that then, Katie. Is it perimenopause or do you just hate everyone?

SPEAKER_02 4:50

I don't know. Different days I'll give you a different answer. But uh, long story short, yeah, I I think sometimes for me it's that that that mood of just you want to say, no, I'm not, I'm not doing today. Everything is really pissing me off. I want to hide, I don't want to have to deal with it. And then for me, anyway, within maybe half an hour, I've totally changed my mind. And I love everyone, and it's not so bad. And you know, it's that fluctuation of moods and moments and periods of time where you're just like, what the hell is going on?

SPEAKER_03 5:25

So, Katie, tell us a little bit about you then and your life, how old you are, kids, career, where where are you at at the moment?

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Yeah, sure. So I'm almost 42 and I feel wonderful for it. Um, really loving, I think, where I am in general, my age, you know, where where I where I've got to with work. So I really I'm one of those people who I really love what I do. So I work for a big, big corporation, I do global events, which is, I mean, it sounds really sexy, it's really hard work, but kind of sexy sometimes as well. Um, so I have that, which is a very much my individual identity. That is me. But then after a long day at work, I take that hat off and I go back to mummy mode where it's what's for tea, I don't have P Kit, I need help with my homework. So there's a lot going on. There is sort of two sides to who I am, I suppose. And I really like that. And I think that in a weird way for being super busy with it all, it keeps me quite sane, if that makes any sense at all. It does to me. Absolutely. And so you asked about kids, so yeah, three kids. So um, a seven-year-old called Charlie, a 13-year-old called Elizabeth, and then a 15-year-old called Harry. So quite a spread, and obviously dealing again with delights of all the phases of children from you know year three up to now year 10. It's it's quite a whirlwind, but keeps them on my toes, and you're constantly learning things about you know, your kids, yourself, that's um all sorts. It's quite a lot of hormones in your house, Katie. Oh, don't. The number of memes I've looked at, like you know, we've got all these teenagers, then this crazy seven-year-old, and then me. And I honestly, it's like a potluck. What day are you gonna get? Is it gonna be harmony and everyone loves each other, or is it, you know, one's leaving home, I'm screaming and blinding them with yeah, get on with it. So, yeah, it's an interesting one on the hormone front.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

I think it's um I I f I think that is it perimenopause, or you know, do I just hate everyone? Is such a pertinent question. Because I think like, and I think we can all relate. I think every single woman can relate, and I think it's really similar to how you feel before your period as well. So even if you're not in perimenopause, it's similar, but it's so believable, right? I mean, I really believe myself. Sometimes I I'm looking at Kieran, and you know, for the record, like my I've got a really nice husband, he's a really good guy, and I look at him and I I'm genuinely, you know, in my head, I've moved out. We I've got, you know, I've worked out custody, who will take the car, you know, and I've gone, I've checked out, and then I really, you know, I'm really convinced that it's all his fault. And it's only, you know, I don't know, in the next 30 minutes, so I'm like, oh shit, did I put my oestrogen patch on today? I don't think I did.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

There we go, all of a sudden. I mean, I I've I've I'm exactly the same to the point that sometimes I'm I'm I'm like, what's what's annoying me? I'm here just you know, Ron stands me having a coffee, and I'm like, oh, it's his breathing, it's his fucking disgusting breathing. Go away, I can't bear it. And I'm like, what are you doing? And this poor guy is like, um, do you want a cup of tea? And I'm like, just no, you disgust me. Get out. But I'm honestly, what is what is that about?

SPEAKER_03 8:44

I mean, I think we're lucky that we've all got very nice and disstanding partners, and if you you know scratch the surface, they're all genuinely good guys. Um we were talking before you joined us, Katie, about the statistics of of divorce uh at the perimenopausal age, and I and you know, we'll we'll put this in the comments on on the socials and of the podcast. But we're laughing because you know, we have got understanding husbands who we can probably after half an hour go, sorry, love, you know, I've gonna rub that gel on or slap that patch on and back to normal now, you know, and they can take it in their stride. But I imagine um a lot of men can't.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

It's a really hard time for them, you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

But also, do you think that we're laughing? Because we are, I would actually say, in a minority of women that understand that perimenopause is a change and it's a thing and it's real, and these are the effects that it has. And so I think we can, you know, we can kind of look at our moods and our reactions and the way that we're perceiving things and the changes like that we're having mentally and say, oh, well, this is because, you know, not for better, not for worse, but this is because my brain chemistry has changed. This is because I am changing on a cellular level. But actually, I meet many, many women in their 50s who come and see me in clinic who, when I say, you know, how long have you felt like this, they'll say, Oh, two or three years. But then when I ask them, you know, uh when their anxiety started, they'll say, Oh, well, probably when I was in my 40s, when I got divorced. And, you know, there's just so much to unpick there, isn't there?

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Yeah. And it's interesting you you you sort of mentioned change because there's a big part of me that I recognise change is happening, I'm totally not in control. There are many options to to to regain a bit of sort of self-balance, and that's very individual to all sorts. But I love the narrative that it's a positive change, you know, it is a really hard time. But where's the flip side of it's it's like a rebirth for women, it's not the end, it's like, oh, you know, I've gone through perimempose, you know, that's uh the end of end of being a woman. Someone once said that to me, and I was like, what are you talking about? You know, I know as a uh as an individual, you start, you you get your periods, and that's horrendously what the hell is going on. And then if you if you so wish, you choose to have children um and you go through all that as well, and then you come out this other side and you think, oh, you know, I've got a lovely family, and then you hit this bloody beast to deal with as well. But it's not necessarily got to be a negative thing. I I love the fact that it can be be seen in a positive light. The more people talk about it in a positive way and share stories like like you're facilitating with this, I think it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

And we always say, don't we, Katie, it's it I think it's always been sort of positioned as an a thing that happens to old ladies, but it's it's not, it's definitely a midlife thing. So actually, there's a whole lot of life, you know, if you're lucky, and I hope we are, you know, you could have another 40, 50, 60 years having gone through menopause, perimenopause, menopause, and and be on the other side in control.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

I think as well, you know, for for me, and and I I was literally before you got on here, Katie, I was saying to Rosie, you know, personally, you know, I went through so I went through perimenopause at about 37, 38 just after having my second child. And really, I was actually none the wiser. It was mad, and I only realised because I was actually studying the irony, studying for my menopause specialism at the time, I was like, hang on a second, and then I couldn't work out if I was making it all up. But anyway, it turns out that I was perimenopausal and have been, obviously am subsequently. But I've got to say, you know, I am in a privileged position because I I know what changes to do, and I and we'll talk about that throughout the podcast. But I am certainly, you know, healthier, fitter, better at 40 than I was at 30. And as far as I'm concerned, there's no reason why that's not going to continue. You know, I hope to be staying the same at 50 and the same at 55 and 60. And, you know, what I feel really, really passionately about is that this isn't just my narrative. You know, this is every woman's narrative. All you need is the tools. So you need to know how the rule book has changed, because it certainly has changed. And you need to know, you know, how do we manage, how do I manage my new body and my new brain? And what can I do differently? Because actually, if you get it right, then and and it's not complicated, you know, it's not, it's not rocket science. If you get it right, then bloody hell, 40s and 50s is all to play for. You're in a prime.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

Yeah. I I think that's what when I when I, you know, first said, I'm really happy with where I am, you know, that you've got that old stigma over things, you know, thinking when I was 18 or 40-year-old, oh my god, they're ancient, they're almost in the grave. You know, not true, not true at all. And to that point, that this this shift period, this sort of positive change into something else, where you maybe take a bit more interest in diet, because that is a huge factor of like how your body reacts to what's going in it, whether it's different times of the month, how it'll respond to different nutrients, or just being aware that unfortunately you can't have an Easter egg for breakfast every day, or you can't have you know the processes only on weekends, only on weekends. Um, so I I think that bit, and then the exercise as well. I mean, my husband will laugh, going, What are you preaching about exercise? You haven't done any for ages, but that could just be you know the brisk walk to school, you know. I'm not saying we're gonna join the spin class every day, but you put those two together: the the better diet, the being aware of what you're eating, exercising a little bit, I think that goes a really long way. And then, like you say, Katie, you you're feeling better for it, and that becomes you and your new routine. That is the rule book going forwards of of how you're gonna be, and what's not to love about that fitter, healthier, feeling fresher. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 15:12

So, Katie, um, going from the title, is it perimenopause or do I just hate everyone? To this when we spoke, you had a really positive attitude to how you were going to attack perimenopause, and you said to me, you know, you almost see it like a rebirth. For for ladies and who are listening to this and are just entering perimenopause and probably have a career similar to yours, three children. What kind of steps, what kind of things have you done? How how do you keep positive?

SPEAKER_02 15:44

Yeah, that's a really good question because I I you know, for me, it's like this is brilliant, this works, and I appreciate that everyone is different. And when I think of almost a little bit like self-preservation, it sounds quite extreme, but that self-care bit, I don't have much time. I I barely have time to blow my nose and have a cup of tea most days. But I've noticed that it's those micro moments of time to yourself. So I do again, I'm a bit a bit of a loony, but I will give myself five minutes. Just sat in the car, the engine goes off, peace and quiet. I know that I'm about to go into chaos or tea time or something hasn't been done properly or whatever. And it's just, you know, I'm just gonna sit here nice and calm, eyes closed sometimes, and that instantly sort of almost like a supersonic recharge, and then I'm ready to go home, or you know, go and take the bin out, just stand, gaze at the gaze at the sky, run the bin, done a job, take a little minute for myself. So I think when you are super busy, the idea, you know, we'd all love to go on a spa day to to you know fill your cup and get refreshed. Who's got time for that? You know, it's those micro moments where you can prioritize yourself that I find really really achievable. That's the bottom line. That is achievable.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Do you think that that's what's changed, Katie? Do you think if you compare 42-year-old you to 32-year-old you, do you think that that's the switch? It's actually, you know, you've you've prioritised yourself and you're taking time to understand your body.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Yes, trying to. Um, I think also if I went back 10 years, I had more time for, you know, nothing because life wasn't as busy. So you had those moments where I'm just gonna sit and scroll on my phone or read a book or do whatever. Now that that time doesn't exist, so you have to be really efficient in where you get that. The other bit that goes hand in hand with that is I've never been very good at saying, no, no, I don't want to do that, you know, and and then sometimes it's lovely things, and this goes back to the do I hate everyone? Because you know, you might get a friend who goes, Do you want to go for a drink on Saturday evening? You know, just one after bedtime. And I'll think about it and I'll be like, no, no, thank you. No, I don't, there's no excuse, there's no reason. I just don't want to fucking do it. I'm no, and that's part of I suppose my little self-care toolkit that I that I apply to me is those micro moments where I'm empowering myself to say, I don't want to do that, or I need five minutes in the car, everyone else needs to stop. This is my space. So those are two, you know, they're not groundbreaking, but you know, I do it.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

I think, and and you know, and I I I I'm with you, Katie. You know, I I think perimenopause is freaking fantastic, and you know, there's loads of things that I think are brilliant about it, and I spend a lot of my my time personally and professionally convincing women that they are, you know, not gonna turn to dust just because their ovaries are not producing enough estrogen. But that being said, I do think, you know, I do think that there's a fine line between feeling empowered and saying, no thanks, I don't want to go for a glass of wine, and no thanks, I'm not gonna come to your crap party that I would have tolerated. But you know, I I think there's a fine line between that and then becoming actually quite withdrawn. And and I meet women who are perhaps, you know, 10 years ahead of us and who, you know, very insidiously have lost themselves in this kind of process of of change. And I think that that's equally sad. And you know, I I I think that I love reframing, you know, perimenopause and menopause and hormones, but I think it's also paying credence to that and making sure what do we do? You know, what do we do to stop that happening to women?

SPEAKER_03 19:53

I think it's um we spoke at length, Katie, about these micro moments and making the best of your time. And we were talking about sort of how we'd behave. So when the kettle's boiling, you're you know, whipping something out of the bin, you know, mixing something in a bowl and possibly, you know, stroking the you know, combing the dog at the same time. You know, it's it's having those chunks of time and then making the best out of those chunks of time. But I guess going back to what you've said, Katie, for me there's a big difference there because I think what Katie guessed Katie is talking about is having the confidence to say, no, I don't want to do that. I want this time for myself. I'm gonna take that energy back and not give it these other people. But I think what's happened to some ladies is they've lost that confidence, they don't know who they are anymore, and they almost probably feel scared to go out there and be in that social situation that they probably don't want to be in, or probably you know, imposter syndrome is is is sunk in and they're not quite sure what to say and how to act. I I and I think that may be the difference there.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

To that point, that that filine, and and other Katie, you're you're quite right. I'm at that beginning stage of it's empowering. I feel great saying no and and being able to do what I want and owning my own time, albeit they're in your micro minutes of time. But that feels great. But I suppose as you go through this journey and it may get harder, it might get easier, or you go through those waves of how how how how it affects you, you've just got to be, I suppose, conscious that you don't withdraw and you don't say, God, this is lovely, I haven't seen anyone for two weeks, and I really can't can't be asked, you know. I do hate everyone, it's true, it's it's I just don't like people. But that but but to that point, it's really interesting, exactly things like we're doing here, those conversations where people can listen, they can understand, they can almost recognise themselves or parts of themselves in some of that dialogue. But the power of having that that community around you, whether that's strong women, strong men as well, as we've Already alluded to with our wonderful husbands supporting us. But you know, having that network that you can talk to and that they recognise, well, you know, you said no the last two weeks, so we're gonna come round and see you. You know, that's that support. And I think the the more this conversation goes on, the you know, the the the less inclined people are to be like, well, I don't want to bother her with how I'm feeling about perimenopause or my experience because I I I just either don't feel comfortable or feel like I can't burden people with that. It's an open conversation. Women should be there for women.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

I really strongly believe it's validation as well, isn't it? Like we were saying kind of at the beginning, you know, our our feelings and our emotions are very believable. God, they're so convincing. And, you know, I don't want to sound trite, and it's certainly not dismissing, you know, these very real feelings of anxiety, but I think being able to talk about, you know, things like social anxiety is a really big one. I noticed that really creeps in with my patients. And I think if that just goes round and round in your own head, that is going to be very damaging for your confidence, and it becomes, you know, uh oh, actually, I am just an unconfident person and I don't do very well in social situations. But if you have perhaps a close friend or you know, uh a very good podcast that you can listen to that that validates your feelings of feeling, you know, a bit more anxious in social situations, and actually, you know, well, I'm 43 or 53, and this is actually a common symptom of perimenopause. It kind of gets you out of your own head, doesn't it? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

And I and I think that's that's always the danger. I mean, the the anxiety thing. I I never struggled luckily with any sort of anxiety, but definitely as I've been creeping into this, that's just strange anxieties about things that are totally ridiculous. And again, going back to that point where it seems so real, it's terrifyingly real, you know, just things like you know, my son's going to play in the garden and he wants to go in the tree house, and then all of a sudden I go outside and his legs have fallen off, and there's been an absolute scene. And I've I've convinced myself that that a hundred percent is going to happen, and it's terrifying, and then you have to really like what are you thinking? Stop, snap out of it.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

But in that moment, it is it's all encompassing. I I you I know that brings me on to I have so many patients, and actually more than you would think. And this cohort of patients do tend to be my younger patients who really struggle with intrusive thoughts, and intrusive thoughts are really typical in perimenopauses. And you know, I I I spoke to a patient once, and she actually had to stop uh or really reconsider cycling um in the midst of her perimenopause, uh, cycling to work, because she was cycling to work in school with her little boy on the back of her bike, and she was living in a busy city, and she became absolutely convinced that she was just going to cycle into oncoming traffic, and it really affected her daily routine. And she almost felt, I could tell she almost felt embarrassed to say that to me because you know she was a very strong, very capable woman, you know, single mum, absolutely bossing it in every other aspect of life. But all of a sudden, this thing called perimenopause has come along and is starting to make her, you know, think things that perhaps are a bit uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Just in general, then, Katie, because we know that menopause and perimenopause and these kind of symptoms can be mistaken for depression and get treated incorrectly. If a lady is listening to this now going, that's me, I've got complete anxiety, I've got intrusive thoughts, I've withdrawn, I don't go out of the house, I don't do anything with my children because I keep getting these scenes replaying. What's the first step someone should take?

SPEAKER_01 26:06

I and again, this is absolutely my bag because I feel very passionately about you know women accessing help at the right time. And you know, it help looks different for everyone. But I think as women, we quite often say, Oh, I don't think my symptoms are that bad. I'm not, it's not that bad. Like, how bad does it have to be before you know we access help? And I I would say to any woman, and I do say frequently, you know, to any woman that's experiencing symptoms that they believe to be hormonal, you're, you know, it doesn't even matter if you're in your early 30s. Actually, you know, if you believe your symptoms are hormonal and this is something different, a different anxiety, a different feeling of flatness, uh, you know, poor sleep, any symptoms that you think, oh, this is a bit strange, or this is new, or this has crept in over the last six months. And I I you know, I should say, yeah, go and access help at your GP. But what I would say is if you do that, make sure you are, you know, forearmed with information about what is going on with your body. Because what commonly happens is women will say, okay, fine, I'm gonna pluck up the courage and I'm gonna go and I'm gonna talk to my GP. And the GP will say in that 10-minute appointment, yeah, okay, we'll get you a hormone profile done. So we're gonna do a set of bloods on you. And this woman perhaps might be 39, 41, 45, 46. What women don't understand is when they have that blood test done, that is a blood test for Tuesday afternoon, and it's gonna tell you what your estrogen is doing on Tuesday afternoon, doesn't tell you what your estrogen does on Wednesday morning or Friday evening or you know, Saturday, because your hormones are fluctuating. So, quite commonly, what happens is women will get their blood tests back and their blood tests will say, absolutely, completely, hormonally normal. There is nothing wrong with you. Now, in my mind, that woman to then be told, you know, that all of the feelings that she had about, am I going mad? Well, that's just been completely validated, hasn't it? She is going mad because this GP has just told her that her blood test is completely normal. So what happens then? So and and this is, you know, this is I I feel very strongly about this. So I would say, you know, to answer, sorry, to answer the shorter with the shorter answer to this is yeah, go go to your GP. Anyone experiencing symptoms that they think to be hormonal, go to your GP first, of course. But make sure that you know, you know, is a blood test going to be helpful for me? What do I want out of this appointment? You know, what is the information I need to gather? What are my rights? Where do I want this to go?

SPEAKER_03 29:04

Because I think if I can harp back to Lisa's episode, she took a long list and there was no way she was going to be fobbed off. So if you could channel some Lisa, but going back, there was a key word that I think myself and guest Katie um spoke about um prior to the podcast, and that's symptoms creeping in. It's not suddenly you wake up and you go, Oh, I feel different. It was a slow creep for you, wasn't it, Katie?

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Me, Katie, yeah. Um, I think it was just a really noticeable shift in that mood. And I mean, I always thought, oh, I'll I'll get hot sweats, or I'll get some of the sort of the triple A symptoms of perimenopause. But then actually, I didn't have those. So when it was this funny mood, and I wouldn't necessarily say it was a low mood, it was just what I would call like a a low energy mode. When you when your computer goes into, yeah, right, I'm I'm on, but I'm not really here, and I just feel a bit strange. And it it sort of crept in and then it would go away, and then you think, oh, so much better today, and then it's back, and it's almost like the tide just ebbing and flowing in, and it before you know it, it's crept a little bit closer. Um, so you don't automatically then think, right, I'm getting myself down to the GP because I want to test or talk to someone about it. But then you start putting all the pieces of this mega jigsaw together, and it's funny, it's the bit we were just talking about. I would never think of intrusive thoughts as something associated with this. That intrusive thoughts are just sort of, you know, God, I think I'm in the I am I weird. Oh, let it go. But a lot of people won't associate that. So when we look at my creep, there are bits of the puzzle that I'm not even considering that in the picture because I don't know about it. But the more we talk and the more, you know, this has been amazing for me because like, oh, that's interesting, that all forms part of that that piece of what's going on. But the more people talk about it and and link those dots, you find that the creep isn't so subtle. It's not, you know, oh, I didn't think about that. It's like it's been there all along, but you're just not you're not thinking about it in the right way, or at least I haven't been.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Yeah, absolutely. It it's about having, you know, the options, isn't it? So when you know, you know, there's hundreds and hundreds of symptoms associated with menopause. And you know, when we know, it you know, if you think prior to having your first period, we're overloaded with hormones. So subsequently, every cell that you have in your body has a hormone receptor, and and that means that periods of hormone fluctuation are are can be really challenging and they really affect every aspect of your body. And I think sometimes some people and you know different generations or whatever can be quite dismissive and say, Oh, but you're just saying everything is perimenopause and everything is menopause. And I'm quite upfront about that. Well, yeah, no, that is exactly what we're saying. Because it it may be that yes, you have arthritis, it may be you have a back injury, it may be that you do have historical uh anxiety, it may be that you do have depression, you might have a mental health problem. However, the fact that you have hormones and they're fluctuating is going to be impacting every single aspect. So just having that knowledge helps you think, oh, hang on, things have got a bit strange. It must be my hormones because of the age I'm at. And I think knowing that, you know, we used to say that, you know, actually, let's just wait until you get sick. Let's wait until you're in your 50s and you've got, you know, osteopenia and muscle wastage, and you've put on, you know, 10 kilos. Let's wait until then, until your blood pressure's gone up and your cholesterol's gone up, and then we'll then we'll treat all of those things. But now, really, what what we do in a really interesting uh meta-analysis in the states suggests that actually, you know, interventions that are done earlier, so lifestyle interventions, so the right exercise, the right diet, taking the right time, even those micro minutes that you were talking about, Katie, like it, you know, the right hormones, all of those things done early, so the earlier the better, have more favorable health outcomes. And it's just knowing that, isn't it? It's just the information that we should have.

SPEAKER_02 33:53

Also, I mean, in I'm I'm a very visual person, so instantly I've gone to be the person who doesn't exercise very much. I'm I'm fully training for a marathon. I know I've got a marathon to do. No one would do a marathon with no pre-training. I mean, someone might do, but in my head now, it's like it's the menopause marathon. I'm I'm prepping for this. I'm doing my work now, so by the time I'm on my however many close to the end mile in a marathon, I don't even know. I'm still I'm still going and I've got it, and I'm I'm armed, I'm prepared. Because yeah, why wait till the very end, like you say, when everything kind of has gone wrong and you're solving that problem rather than we know it's coming?

SPEAKER_03 34:32

I'm seeing like a rocky montage at the moment of you, Katie, and me and just bringing this back to to you and and um your situation at the moment, then. Uh are you have you sought out HRT or are you on any tests? Have you uh I know you mentioned you're on the coil and that had some effects. What what what's going on with you medically at the moment?

SPEAKER_02 34:58

So medically, touch wood, okay. Um I I'm not on anything, and I think I know this is this is probably not the right thing to say, but it's it's kind of how I feel about a lot of things that I'm told I need to do, whether it's the collagen in my bloody coffee, which I think for me is nonsense, um, or all the other things that I'm meant to be doing with my face creams and my whatever else. I kind of haven't quite got there yet. I'm a later doctor. I personally, for things like the the HRT, I'm not quite re I don't think I need it, which may be incorrect, but I kind of don't feel I need that yet. But do I, Katie? That was going to be one of my.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

I don't know why you don't need it, Katie. I've been dying to say this. So you've got the Mirena coil, is that right? Yes. Best thing that any woman in their 40s or late 30s can do. And the reason being is because your the first hormone that fluctuates, or the first hormone that goes a bit uh haywire, is actually your progesterone. And so women that have the moreno coil, so that has uh a progesterone in it, um, it actually tend to do better in perimenopause, and it's because you already have the progesterone arm, and albeit you know, it's not as a big a release or a systemic release as oral progesterone is, but you still get some systemic effect of the progesterone. And so what will be happening is that will be just maintaining a little bit of hormonal balance for you. So, you know, absolutely you you know, you you've kind of already done one half of it, really, if you think of it like that.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

Okay, yeah, that's me all over. I seem to, you know, be able to tick a box without realizing I'm even holding a pen.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

But the Mirena coil, yeah, the Mirena coil is amazing. I love it, love it, love it, love it.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

Well, when we were talking um yesterday, Rosie, um, I sort of traced back to the point where this whole, you know, I really do hate everyone, what the hell is going on? And it pretty much would have been at the end of the lifespan of my previous coil. So as it's getting, you know, it's still super effective, I'm a big fan of the coil, uh, but as it's, you know, maybe not as efficient as it was in those first few years, that's when that's when I noticed, you know, the creep. And so it's really interesting to see that once I got it replaced, it was like, okay, feeling really good. My question then is do is that very well known? Are people very aware of that? Because, you know, what if unless you can't or you really don't want to, I'd say everyone have it. I mean, it's what works for me.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

I that's you know, that that tends to be what I say. So there's two schools of thought. So we used to say that the gold standard of HRT is the Mereno coil and then a transdermal estrogen. And now the more data we have, we kind of lean away from saying that. And what we say is the gold standard is a micronized body-identical progesterone with an estrogen gel or patch or spray. And the reason we say that is because the progesterone that's in the moreno coil isn't body identical. How so we can't say it's as low a risk in terms of uh the body-identical progesterone. But when we look at what the moreno coil does, so we know that the moreno coil reduces your chance of ovarian cancer, it reduces your chance of endometrial cancer, it helps maintain a bit of hormonal balance, you know, it stops any endometrial thickening associated with higher estrogen levels, whether that be from HRT or your own estrogen levels. So absolutely, and I, you know, I think we all know people, and obviously me lots in clinic, but I think personally we all know people who will say, God, in perimenopaurus, my periods just turned, you know, it was like a massacre. And the Morena coil is excellent for that. But I think I don't know, I think it with women, uh, I just think there is just such an absence of information that we become a bit squeamish when it comes to our own bodies. And sometimes, you know, when I say to a woman who's sat opposite me, have you thought about the Morena coil? Their their response is, oh, oh no, no, oh no, no, I couldn't, I couldn't. And I think we envision this like huge, great big corkscrew going into our uterus. But it's just not having the information, is it? You know, it it's not why would you? And and I think Katie, you've rightly said, we're all just so busy that you know we don't have time to sit and ponder what contraception is is best for us. We just go to our GP and hope that they're gonna give us the right option, but quite often they don't.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

I think as well, when you go for a contraceptive, you're you're thinking of its first, you know, main use, you know, and you're not you're not aware of the subsequent other benefits of that contraceptive, i.e., the coil. A lot of ladies will be going to the GP and going, oh, you know, I'm uh I'm in my 40s, I don't want to fall pregnant, just in case, you know, or looking for a contraceptive, and they have no idea of the benefits of the coil as an example that it's going to help them through that. How long would you have a coil in for? Just out of interest. How long is it?

SPEAKER_01 40:28

So it in for contraception is eight years, so it's licensed up to eight years, but for HRT, so if you're using it to protect the uterus against uh oestrogen or endometrial thickening because of HRT, then it's five years. And so I, you know, obviously this is a non-medic, this is no, you know, medical advice, I've got to be very careful. Um, but I would probably get that coil changed every five years. And you know, when you have the coil, I think it's about you know knowing what your baseline is. So, you know, what how should you be feeling? Well, I I think that every every woman should, you know, it's a very reasonable expectation that they should be able to do the things that they want to do with some level of enjoyment and uh, you know, achieve what they want to achieve, whether that be in their career or their home life, and maintain healthy, happy relationships, and you know, be able to string a sentence together and remember things. And we all have our different baseline. And I personally would recommend that every woman understands what HRT can do. So it doesn't matter whether you decide to take it or not take it, as long as you have all of the information that as to as to what that HRT is going to do or not do for you, and then you can make up your mind.

SPEAKER_03 41:47

Katie, last question then, who we ask everybody who is a guest on Fannying Around, if you could have a word in the ear of a younger Katie, let's say a 20-year-old Katie, bounding about that university campus with Kieran. Um what words of advice would you give her?

SPEAKER_02 42:08

I I was thinking about this, and my I'm I'm a go-withy gut kind of girl, if you can't kind of tell. Um and I was thinking, oh no, well, would you say that? Would you really say that? And and I was like, Yeah, you would. So I would say to my younger self, don't do anything differently. Good. I honestly would. And I don't know whether, and and that's not to say everything everything's been tickety-boo, but it just I I wouldn't be where I am right now talking to you, you wonderful people, if I hadn't done things how how I've done them. And I think I don't know what what my future marathon is gonna look like, but right now I feel ready, I feel armed, I feel empowered, quite frankly, after talking on on this chat to say, yeah, I think everything's gonna be good, everything's gonna be fine. I I think Katie'll say, maybe just educate yourself on HRT a little bit more, which I will, I will, I'll take it away. Um, but yeah, don't don't do anything differently, would be what I would say.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

I love that. I really love that. And you know, there's no rush, Katie. Like I think it's yeah, like you said, this is a marathon, isn't it? You know, it's uh it this isn't what can we do tomorrow. This is, you know, how can I prepare my body over the next 10, 20, 30, 40 years to be the best that it can be? And I think that that's really cool. I love that. I think, you know, having met younger Katie, I think you're probably very right.

SPEAKER_03 43:37

Yeah, I'm glad you were me. I think just as well speaking to you, Katie, I think approaching anything with a positive attitude, and that's been a similar pattern to the other ladies we've spoken to on the on the podcast. If you can approach approach it with a positive attitude and connect mind, body, and uh and and get through it, I think you're you're on the Right track, aren't you, to start with?

SPEAKER_02 44:02

Yeah. The power of positivity for me is has always been a really big thing. And just be kind to yourself. I mean, life's difficult enough. Just be kind. Take the five minutes in the car. Hide behind the bin. Whatever you need to do to level set.

SPEAKER_03 44:17

We're gonna try and get some pictures of you for the socials of you having your five minutes in the car. Just for me, to be quite honest.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

My kids decided the other day on the way back from the beach that they didn't want to go in the car with me. They wanted to go in the car with their dad and their dad's friend. And I made a 15-minute journey last 55 minutes. Can you believe it? That is heavily. That's also it was probably quite illegal. I was driving very slowly.

SPEAKER_03 44:52

I love this parent stealing. My brother was saying the other day that um he went to have his beard done because he has no hair, but he makes a fuss of his beard and he'd gone for a beard trim. He's a primary school teacher, and they get this allocated time on whatever day they choose to take it. And the beard trim only took 20 minutes. He thought, I'd just go and sit down for 10 minutes and have a pint in the local pub. And he just got his pint and his book out, and then his mother-in-law. This doesn't look like marking or beard trimmed. So be careful where you choose to have your micro minutes, people, is the uh lesson that we can take from that. Listen, Katie, thank you. It's been an absolute joy to have you on, and I think a lot of ladies will take a really positive um message from this episode. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 45:43

Thank you so much, yes, and yeah, it's been a real treat. Thank you, ladies. And come and see us soon, Katie. I will a hundred percent. Yes, please. Yes, please. All right, have a great day.

SPEAKER_03 45:55

Thank you, darling. Thank you so much. Lovely to meet you. You two, bye.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

This episode of Fannying Around is supported by ClearBoost, a women's health supplement range I created after years of working in clinic and seeing how confused and overwhelmed women felt by supplements. Each product is designed to support the symptoms that I see most often: hormone changes, low energy, poor sleep, low mood, and stress. Using ingredients chosen for their specific roles in hormone regulation, energy production, and nervous system support. The idea was to replace long random supplement lists with a small number of targeted formulas so women know what they're taking and why. Find out more at clearboost.eu. Oh, I love Katie. That was great, wasn't it? That time just flew by. I felt like we could have done three of those.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

I think what's brilliant about Katie is that she'd already told herself she was gonna nail perimenopause. And I don't know if that comes from her job and being super organised, working in events, and but she'd already sort of got a plan ahead of her that you know, this is what is happening, and all these things don't feel quite right, but this is what I'm gonna do about it.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Yeah, you know, I think it is just I think it's the acknowledgement, isn't it? Like, oh, like, hi, hi, Perimenopause, you're here. This is what you're doing. And I think that even just the acknowledgement that it exists allows you to reframe how you think about it. I think the trouble comes, is when you are blindsided, and you know, you're expecting something to happen at 55, and actually, you know, it kicks you in the ass at 39. And I think that you know that's that's where you kind of lose your agency on how am I going to think about this.

SPEAKER_03 48:07

Because with a lot of ladies, and because hers, she said, sort of creeped up on her, and there were symptoms then talking about the um intrusive thoughts that she hadn't linked to perimenopause, but you know, just speaking to on the podcast, realised that oh yeah, that's part of it as well. I'm similar. We we had a chat before the podcast, and I've got lots of little creeping things where I go, oh gosh, I'm screaming at the mug cabinet again, or whatever it is, these mental things, and then you go, Oh, that's a bit mental. Oh yes. I'm sure that's not how it happens for every lady. I'm sure, like you say, some women, it's like a bulldozer, and and they are completely blindsided.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Well, no, I I I mean, in in my clinical experience, I think it is relatively insidious. I think it is, you know, you put the crappy sleep down to, you know, your husband snoring or stress at work, and then that goes on, and then you put the brain fog down to the fact that you're not sleeping very well, and the increase in anxiety down to a life situation, or perhaps you know, something that's happened to you in the last five, ten years, and the muscle aches down to the fact that you know you do train at the gym quite a lot, and it just goes on and on and on. Yeah, and then they layer on top of each other, and then it becomes all these small symptoms and things happening to you actually, and I think that I I think what you know, and as I said earlier in the podcast, I absolutely love Katie's positivity and applaud it, and I think it's fantastic, and I I very much think the same, but you know, I I also want women that don't feel as positive and that do have a crippling anxiety and just feel flat as pancake, you know. I think that flatness, we it I don't have one single patient really that doesn't tell me that they feel flat and they have anxiety, and I think that they are the two symptoms that creep in. And I always describe it to my patients that life has just lost its colour a little bit, and I think if you feel a bit flat and a bit meh, then it's very difficult to get yourself off the back foot and then well.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

I guess it becomes a vicious circle, doesn't it? Because if you feel flat and meh, you don't want to go to the gym, you don't want to go out, you probably uh and then it starts becoming.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

I think you know, and then and then how do you get out of that? And I think some women and a lot of women are stuck, and they are, you know, they've suddenly got to the bottom of that barrel quite quickly with all of these insidious things that have just crept in, and now they're stuck and they know that they need to think positively about it, but they can't because they're right at the bottom, and you know, those women, I would say, you know, aren't to feel like they failed, aren't to feel like there's no hope, aren't to feel like it's all rubbish, but it's just that they might need a little bit of help, and I think that's where we talk about you know, intervention and what is intervention and what does it look like? And I think you know, Katie's shown that intervention comes in in many different ways, but it's about the acknowledgement that your body has changed. What can you do about it? What do we need to do differently? So taking small things like the micro minutes that Katie was talking about to you know, exercising differently and eating more protein and and and hormones if that's what you know you want to do, but it's it's about knowing your options and never, never, never, and I cannot say this enough, but never feeling like there are no options because there always are, always.

SPEAKER_03 52:01

Fannying around was brought to you by Everything's Rosie, presented by me, Rosie Frost and Katie Pitt Allen, and sponsored by Clear Boost Supplements and the Women's Health Clinic Europe.