Episode 5 - Fannying Around with Micheal

Michael is an American author now living in Alicante, who left the US during the first Trump administration with her young daughter, built a new life in Spain, and is now figuring out empty nest life while writing books in the mountains surrounded by dogs, which, if we’re honest, sounds pretty bloody perfect.

But before that came years of awful periods, relentless bleeding, a brutal struggle to get proper healthcare in the US, and eventually a hysterectomy that felt less like a choice and more like the only way out.

We talk about what it means to try and get help in a system that makes women fight for every answer, the huge contrast between having agency in some parts of your life and absolutely none in others, and how hormones, healthcare, motherhood and politics can all collide in one woman’s story.

We also get into Michael becoming a mum through donor conception, the very practical business of choosing sperm from what is essentially a catalogue, and why she knew she wanted a child even if she did not particularly want a man.

Honestly, this episode has got everything.

Periods. Politics. Hysterectomies. Empty nesting. Spain. Dogs...Lots of dogs! 😍 🐶

And underneath all of that, a really powerful conversation about choice, bodily autonomy, and what happens when women are forced to become their own best advocate.

Right then.

Let’s fanny around with Michael.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

This episode is supported by the Women's Health Clinic. At the Women's Health Clinic, you'll be seen by our accredited menopause specialists, working to the latest international clinical guidance. We believe that knowledge is power. When you understand what's changing in your body and why, you can make decisions with clarity and confidence and feel back in control of your health. We really take the time to listen to your symptoms using evidence-based assessment and testing where appropriate and explain what's happening in a way that actually makes sense. From there, we support women to explore all effective treatment options, including prescriptions when needed. Our aim is simple to optimize women's health care wherever you are. No funnying around. Find out more at thewomen's Healthclinic.eu.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

Hiya, welcome back to Fannying Around, the podcast, where we talk hormones, women's health, midlife, and all the good stuff that gets tangled up in it. I'm Rosie here with Katie, Menopause Nurse, Specialist, Hormone Encyclopedia, and the woman most likely to explain your entire emotional collapse with unnerving accuracy. Before we go on, I wanted to say a big thank you to those of you who have reached out to tell us how much you've been enjoying the podcast. Last week we fannyed around with Katie. You were loving that one, episode four. It was a cracker, wasn't it? And the fun doesn't stop there. Today we're fannying around with Michael. Now, Michael's story is not a neat little my periods went a bit funny and then I got a fan for my handbag. No, it's much bigger than that. Michael is an American author now living in Alicante. She left the US during the first Trump administration with her young daughter, built a new life in Spain, and is now figuring out empty nest life whilst writing books in the mountains surrounded by dogs, which if I'm honest sounds pretty bloody perfect, doesn't it? But before that came years of awful periods, relentless bleeding and a brutal struggle to get proper healthcare in the US, and eventually a hysterectomy that felt less like a choice and more like the only way out. We talk about what it means to try and get help in a system that makes women fight for every answer, the huge contrast between having agency in some parts of your life and absolutely none in others, and how hormones, healthcare, motherhood, and politics can all collide in one woman's story. We also get into Michael becoming a mum through donor conception, the very practical business of choosing sperm from what is essentially a catalogue, and why she knew she wanted a child even if she did not particularly want a man. Honestly, this episode's got absolutely everything. Periods, politics, hysterectomies, empty nesting, spain, dogs, and fantasy men. And underneath all of that, a really powerful conversation about choice, bodily autonomy, and what happens when women are forced to become their own best advocate. Right then, let's fanny around with Michael. Hi Michael! We were saying, where do we start with you? Because uh there's a long list, and me and Katie always have a sort of previous chat of where how are we gonna frame the story and whether I think we I said to you in our sort of pre-chat where we start and if we're gonna have enough, but I think with you we could possibly do a series.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Um it's entirely up to you. I am flexible.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

So, Michael, first first and foremost, and tell us a little bit about you, um, where you are at the moment and how you got there.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

So I am an author living in Alicante, Spain. And I previously was in the tech industry and I worked in the Washington, D.C. area. And I fled the US during the first Trump administration with my young daughter, and the the two of us came to Spain, and um, I am now an empty nester. My daughter has gone off to uni in Madrid, and I am in the process of relearning how to be an independent adult.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

So I'm using your terminology, you fled to Spain. Tell us a little bit about that, and and you know, with the Trump administration and having a daughter, and how that came about and how you led to that important decision.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Um, I um I think a lot of people are fleeing from the US currently. I am lucky in that I had a place to flee to. I adopted a dog from Spain in 2012. So, and I had been to Spain as a tourist before then. So that kind of started my my love affair with Spain. So when things started to get bad in the US, and I started to realize that this was not really the place I wanted to be, I already had in my head that someday I was going to end up retiring to Spain. But I thought I, you know, it was many years in the future.

SPEAKER_03 5:46

Tell me about at what point it got really bad. Um, what was that tipping point? And as a as a um single mum living with a a daughter, how how that how that came about, how that felt.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Um, I mean, there were obviously a lot of very specific kind of legal things that were happening. And during that first Trump administration, we really saw kind of the the failure of the rule of law. But for me personally, it was more about the people in my life and how they were acting. And on the one hand, half of the people were very vocal supporters of Trump and the racism and the misogynistic policies that he was promoting, which was, of course, very upsetting. But on the other hand, there were people that did not support those things that were talking, like they just felt powerless. They felt that everything was kind of inevitable and there wasn't really anything we could do, and we were just going to spiral towards this doom. And I was like, Oh, I don't want that. I do not want that. Um, I can remember we did uh my daughter and I participated in the women's march right after Trump took office. And I, for my dog rescue, I had just purchased a large church van that held like 15 people. And I was intending to take the seats out because I was gonna use it for the dogs, but I waited to take the seats out so that on that day I could fill it up with all my friends and we could go into DC and we could march, which we did, and it was amazing. But then after that, like nothing, we kind of lost all of that momentum. And I kept thinking, well, you know, we're we're building to something. People who are smarter than I am and more powerful than I am, and more connected than I am, are definitely doing things behind the scenes. They just haven't come out yet. And apparently, spoiler, they were not. Right. And I can remember just talking to my friends in the spring and when the kids were finally out of school. And I'm like, okay, the kids are out of school. What are we gonna do? Let's let's march, let's take to the streets, let's riot. And no, like they they just weren't going to.

SPEAKER_03 8:17

People were almost just accepting what was happening.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah. You know, I think that a lot of Americans on both sides have just been brainwashed into thinking that America is the best place on earth and nothing could possibly be better. So no matter how bad it seems in the US, like that's the best it can be. Like, there's nowhere that you can go that would be better. Like, I don't know. I just I did not, that was not what I wanted for myself, and it wasn't what I what I wanted for my daughter.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Were your concerns about the the healthcare system in in the US for women and how that's going to impact women and their choices?

SPEAKER_01 8:58

So for me in particular, I had such a hard time getting access to healthcare. And the terrifying part of that is that I had a really good job, and I had really good insurance through my job that was very expensive. And I still, when I had issues, really struggled to get access to care. And I ended up, I ended up having to change jobs a couple of times. And that made it even worse because every time I changed my job, my insurance changed. And I would have, I would lose access to the providers that I had previously, and now I had a whole new list of providers. And I would just snorkel.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

What was that? Consistency is super important as well, isn't it? When you know we're trying to access care, we're trying to talk about things that are affecting our health. And actually, if you don't have consistency with your provider, that makes it really challenging. It's just another challenge. And just going back, Michael.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

I couldn't even get a provider though. They they would give me a list of providers and I would start at the top and I would just start calling, and they would say, Oh, we're not accepting new clients currently, you know, we're not accepting new patients. Try us again in six months. And I finally found got an appointment, and it was for months and months and issues for you.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

Were these they used to discuss, you know, issues that you you felt were uh to do with changes in your body because of perimenopause or menopause, or or was this a separate issue entirely?

SPEAKER_01 10:27

So I had always had really heavy periods, but during this time my periods were out of control. I I felt like I was bleeding all the time. Um, I had a very short cycle, and I would I would bleed for like seven to ten days, and then I would have like maybe 10 days where I was not bleeding, and then I would start bleeding again. Like it was just really frustrating, and it really inhibited my quality of life. You know, I it got to a point where like I had to wear double pads, I had I was wearing a cup and double pads, I couldn't wear pants anymore. Like I felt like I was in a diaper. In fact, I considered like, should I just be wearing a diaper? I feel like this is ridiculous. I I started wearing skirts, which is just not my style, but I felt like I didn't have a choice. And then through all of this, I was expected to like work and be professional and I had to look nice. And I felt I felt not just like exhausted, but also I felt gross, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

And did you have any idea? Did you have any idea at the time that this was your hormones, or did you think, oh, well, you know, maybe my cycle's just changed? What were you thinking?

SPEAKER_01 11:46

So my mother is one of those women that gets her period every 30 days like clockwork and only bleeds for like two and a half days. So the struggles that I had with my period for my whole life were very much like minimized in my family. It was, I didn't really have, you know, any frame of reference. And I just, you know, I'd had my daughter, I was not using my uterus. I was like, whatever's going on here, whatever malfunction is happening here, it just needs to go. And when I finally got an appointment with the doctor, I went in kind of, you know, very directly with, you know, I want a hysterectomy. I am done messing around with all of this plumbing that is not functional.

SPEAKER_03 12:34

And how often do we hear that, Katie, that people that women have waited so long to get the help they need and the right help. And by the time they've got to their doctor, their healthcare professional, menopause specialists, whoever it may be, they're just done. They're just absolutely done.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

I had gone to a gynecologist in my 30s or my maybe my late 20s when I was very young. Um, it was before my daughter was born, so it was probably my late 20s. And I had expressed my concern about, you know, even then my periods were very heavy and irregular and very my cycle was very short. And they had put me on hormonal birth control, which they said would completely fix all of my issues. And I did not make it two months. I had such a bad reaction to those pills, I was nauseated the entire like five or six weeks that I took those pills. And I think that like kind of that was my only experience with trying to have a non-surgical intervention solution to what was going on. That by the time I finally was able to see a gynecologist in my mid-40s, I was like, not even, I didn't even consider the possibility that, you know, hormone replacement might help or, you know, some kind of hormone therapy might help. I was just like, I wanted help.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

And it just, it always just blows my mind. You know, I see thousands of women, we have thousands of patients. And the amount of women that I speak to that just have so little information about what's happening to their body that they really feel like actually you have no options. And, you know, just me and Rosie in the in the short time that we've been doing this podcast have actually spoken to a lot of women who feel like their only option was just take it out, you know, take it out. I don't want it anymore. And you know, and whether that's right or wrong, you know, there there is no right or wrong. It it's the fact that you feel like this is your only option. And that to me is is crazy. That is, you know, that blows my mind.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

And I have really, you know, one of the things that I do differently as a parent compared to my parent is that I do talk to my daughter and I do kind of share information with her. And she and I have had conversations about, you know, if she decides that she wants to have children, then she should do that. But regardless, whenever she is done with her uterus, you know, we are going to consider very seriously whether she should have a hysterectomy, you know, and not beat around the bush. You know, let's get rid of it if it's not serving you.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

I I completely hear what you're saying, actually, Michael, but I'm gonna reframe it slightly because what I hope for your daughter is that because you know, of obviously your excellent communication skills throughout her childhood, uh, but what I hope is that women your daughter's age will, or when they be they come into womanhood, they will feel empowered with what is my uterus for? How does it work? How can I optimize my hormones? What role do my hormones play? Why am I bleeding heavily? What can I do about it? And and have these conversations will be a lot more fluid and it will be a lot less black and white than I have this, you know, I've had my children, or you know, I didn't want to have children, whip it out. And whilst I think, you know, we've spoken to to people like yourself where that has uh been a really good solution. I just, you know, it it saddens me that we feel as women that we have to remove a body part to feel normal, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Um I hope she has better options than I did, but I want her to know that she has options and that I want her to like to very consciously explore those options and make a decision and not feel like you know to not feel desperate, which I I honestly did at the end. I felt kind of desperate, you know, to to get back to some sense of normalcy.

SPEAKER_03 16:59

Talking about your daughter, Michael, and and how she came into this world, that that is of absolute huge interest to me. So could you take us back to your daughter and the decision to have your daughter?

SPEAKER_01 17:16

So I I have a little brother, little half-brother, and I was uh almost 14 when he was born. And I grew up, and his my stepfather passed away when he was not even a year old. So I grew up very much, you know, kind of as his de facto caregiver. And it was very stressful at times. Um, you know, my mother, of course, you know, had to work to support us, and she was very stressed out. And I came out of you know, high school, going into college, you know, thinking I do not want to have kids. Been there, done that, I am not having kids. And I went, you know, I went to college, went to graduate school, kind of got started in my career and began to, you know, work in professional environments where I was exposed to women who were older than I was. And as I looked around at these women in their their 30s and 40s, and some had kids and some didn't, and I kind of one of the things that I do is I visualize like, where do I want to be in five years? Where do I want to be in 10 years? I was like, I I want a kid. Like I actually, I actually love children. You know, I I have a master's degree in education, I've been a classroom teacher, I love kids. I think it was just, you know, the the way I was kind of forced into that, you know, pseudo-parent relationship with my little brother had just kind of, you know, traumatized me. I was like, oh, I don't want that, but I do want my own kid. So I can remember I worked with a woman who was a single mom and her daughter had burned down their house. Oh. And and kind of hearing her talk about that, that she and her daughter had to start over with nothing. They didn't have any pictures. This was before everything was on your phone from on the club. Like they just lost everything. And hearing her talk about how her daughter ruined their lives was like, Oh, I want a daughter. Yeah, no, I that's how you know when you really do like kids. Um, so I did decide that I wanted to have kids, and at the time I had already given up on men. Okay. So I had to kind of re-reexamine that. I was like, okay, I guess I'll date. So I did start dating men again. Um I was about 30. Okay. Yeah. So it took me a long time to come back.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

Just through through bad experience with men.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Um I, you know, men. I don't even know where to begin. That's a whole nother podcast. That's a whole different podcast. No, either. That's why we don't talk about them.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

I think it's I think it's really interesting. I'm fascinated by your story, and I'll encourage you to go on with with with the story in just a moment. But I think at 30 it's that point where uh you see a lot of women and possibly a lot of men, I can't comment for that. They get to the 30 and they think, if I'm gonna have children, I need to find someone to have them with. Yeah, exactly. Uh thankfully, or unfortunately, I guess I waited. I thought, well, I I my my thoughts are if I'm gonna recreate with someone, I want that to definitely be the right person, you know. I want because you're stuck with them then. You are and it's pretty important that this little person coming into your life that you're gonna be responsible for. You you you like those elements of them, and uh and I think we we're sort of fed this narrative of you know, find a find a man and have your children before you hit sort of 35. Yeah, yeah, and thankfully I got my dog, so I had my companion. I thought, and similar to you, you kind of think, well, how much do I want if I've not got this person in my life? How much do I want this child? And and thankfully I did meet a really good man, but it was just a little bit too late to think about children without without the complexities that come with having a child over 40.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Yeah, my mom was 39 when my little brother was born, and honestly, that was too old. For her, every woman is different, but for her, the difference in the parent that she was to me versus the parent that she was to my brother was stark. Yeah, she was just so much less engaged, it was just a different time in her life.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

And I think if it happens naturally, then wonderful, but if it doesn't and and you get medical help, then there's a whole lot of other pressures that you're put under, and there's a whole lot of other emotional turmoil you have to go through. Um and which is a very personal thing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

It's physically more dangerous too for both you and the baby after 45.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Yeah. I I see so many women in clinic who either intentionally or by accident have had uh babies in their early 40s, and and I even have a patient who had a baby in her early 50s, and they are it it always seems to be a challenge, and they usually come and see me in you know the the years after having that baby because they say, Well, you know, I had I felt great in pregnancy, and then I was, you know, it was the catalyst for my perimenopause, or the catalyst for me feeling horrendous. And now, you know, I have this tiny child that I also have to look after, and I'm really struggling. And and them, they are my patients that tend to struggle the most, actually.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Yeah, yeah, I definitely I didn't I didn't want to wait too long. Like I knew everyone says 35, you know, is is when things change, like in your body, and all of your your risk factors increase. So that was the number that I had in my head.

SPEAKER_03 23:10

So how did that decision that is is not actually the the run-of-the-mill decision? You know, where did where did it? I mean, I'm fascinated. Me and Katie were chatting just before you joined us. How'd you go about artificial insemination?

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Not we want not so details, Michael.

SPEAKER_03 23:32

Yes, all the details.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

So I I had had a semi-long-term relationship with a man who I thought might be a good father, and it turned out that he was. Am I allowed to curse? Do we care? Okay. He was a floundering, lying son of a bitch. Yes. And when that relationship ended, I was like, okay, I am not enjoying dating men. Like, I just it's it's really difficult. It's not fun. I don't want to do it. What are my other options? And that is when I kind of you know took a step back and I'm like, well, you know, can I have a kid by myself? And I started doing research and I made an appointment and I went and talked to a fertility specialist. Apparently, what I had is called social infertility. I don't know whether that's a good is that a good or a bad thing.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Like there was no problem with my sperm.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Uh well, from their from their point of view, it was a good thing because it meant that I didn't have a physical problem that they had to surmount. You know, this was simply, you know, I didn't have the opportunity for free sperm, so I was gonna have to pay for it. And there was a catalog, it was online.

SPEAKER_03 24:54

So there is actually a catalog that you yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

I mean, and this was almost 20 years ago, so it's probably much better now. And yeah, in the catalog, you see pictures of the what they look like, their job, the the So they have childhood pictures. So they have pictures of the the donors from when they were little, right? Which is wonderful. You know, I was trying to find I wanted a kid that looked like me, so I had pictures of me when I was little, and I just matched it up to this random child.

SPEAKER_03 25:25

That was gonna be my next what was your criteria when you were looking for a man then? So donor.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

I do not look like my mother. I look like my father. And this was always, and my parents are separated or divorced and have been for a very long time. And this was one of the things where, you know, your your mother will look at you and say, you know, your father was a horrible person and you look just like him. So it was very important to me that my child looked like me. You know, I wanted us to be a set. I didn't want her to ever feel that we were not a set. And boy, did I accomplish that.

SPEAKER_03 26:05

Yeah, I've seen the photos, crikey.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Yeah. But yeah, so I I looked for someone who had the same ethnic background that I have. So German, Hungarian, Irish, Polish, and Native American. So kind of a real kind of stew going on there. Yeah, and once I narrowed it down, there were very few options that kind of hit all of those buttons, but the ones that did did look like me. So, you know, it's before I had the gray hair. Um, but yeah, I I actually narrowed it down to three possibilities, and they had all kinds of extra data that you could pay to have access to. So I was able to access all of their forms that they had submitted, everything except for their name, um, their educational background, their physical health background, all kinds of very detailed physical specifications, like their physical characteristics, what kind of what kind of eye shape did they have? Were their lobes detached or attached? You know, their the shape of their teeth, like just really I don't know if I'm detached or attached to you. Mine are detached. Yours are detached.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Everyone listening now is checking whether they've got detached or detached.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

I made the spreadsheet and then I shared it with all my friends. So I had I got all of the information that I could, um, audio recordings of their voice, all of their essay questions, um, the the childhood picture, like all of that data, put it into a spreadsheet, shared it with my friends, got feedback, and and made my decision.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Do you know what this sounds really exciting? Were you uh like when you were going through the process, was it I and I was expecting it, it it just sounds like in my words, really a really exciting process. Do you I wasn't very excited? Were you at all nervous about making the wrong decision?

SPEAKER_02 28:09

Was it like I just love the fact that you got your friends involved and you had all this information and you were able to make this huge decision, but you know, based on why we talk we spend so much time talking about a lack of choice and a lack of decision that you know my my the the feminist in me it just thinks that this is bloody fantastic. Like what an amazing choice to be able to make.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

I I felt very in control, yeah. This whole process, I felt very in control. You know, I I didn't really get a lot of pushback. I think it is such a common experience for women when they're dealing with medical professionals to to get pushback on things and to feel like they're not being heard. But in this case, I was very much in control. I was in the driver's seat and there was no kind of, you know, well, do you have to ask your husband about this or whatever? Like that, that just didn't come up. And I don't know if that's because of the the place where I went, the doctor that I saw, the it I went to um Fairfax uh IVF fertility clinic, and I actually bought the sperm from their attached sperm bank that's like in the same building. Um and the the doctor I saw was a woman. So I don't know, it it went very well for me.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

The fact that you feel uh you felt so empowered in this situation is because you had all of the information, you know, like it seems like you had all of the information that you needed, and therefore by default, you're you feel empowered, you're empowered to make these choices. And I kind of want to, you know, take that. And I would like to now kind of skip forward and compare that to how you felt when you had your hysterectomy and how you felt, you know, uh about having, you know, about your hormones and your hormonal symptoms. And I I would like you to compare that, you know, if possible, if possible.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

So it was very different. When I finally was able to see a doctor about getting a hysterectomy, everything seemed to happen very quickly, and I definitely did not have the information that I wanted. Like I'm sure there was information I didn't even know that I didn't have, but like things that I was asking, I was not able to get an answer to. Um, when I finally got in to see a doctor, the first thing I did was uh check my blood tests, and I was severely dangerously anemic. And they sent me for a scan, an ultrasound, and they did not tell me going into it that it was a transvaginal ultrasound, which you know, I mean, talk about things that need a trigger warning, those are horrible. Um, you know, and they they did discover that I did have a large uh fibroid embedded into the wall of my uterus and that that was causing the problems. And they were like, well, you know, you're you're really anemic. We need to get you into surgery right away. And everything moved very quickly from that point on. And like, I didn't even know how much it was gonna cost. They told me that they couldn't get me into the facility that was covered under my insurance, so I was gonna have to go to a facility that was not covered, was not part of my network, and that I was gonna have to pay out of pocket for that. I was like, and how much is that?

SPEAKER_02 31:37

These are really big decisions, you know. This is not only are you being told that this is effectively an emergency surgery, this is something that needs to happen quickly, but also you're gonna have to pay out of pocket. This is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

And they couldn't tell me how much. I'm like, how can I prepare for this if I don't have any idea? And I'm like, give me a range. Is it going to be under a thousand, over 10,000, like somewhere in between? Like they could tell me nothing. It was so frustrating.

SPEAKER_03 32:05

I I guess um this comes to it's an added layer of worry. But oh yeah, it's very stressful. Would you say that there'd be women in your situation that perhaps wouldn't go ahead with the surgery, not knowing that?

SPEAKER_01 32:19

I considered not going ahead with the surgery.

SPEAKER_03 32:21

You know, I'm gonna get onto the differences between Europe and the states in in in in a moment, but I would imagine that would put the fear of God into some people. You know, they just cannot afford it. And I said to you before what are the consequences if you have the surgery and and can't pay for it, you know, what what happens?

SPEAKER_01 32:42

So medical debt is treated very specifically, it's treated differently than other kinds of debt in the US. And a lot of people don't understand how it works. I'm not sure I understand how it works, it's very complicated. But there are friends of mine who still to this day have very irregular periods, have excessive bleeding, you know, discomfort, and would like to have a hysterectomy and have not because their insurance won't cover it. So there are absolutely women today that need to have this surgery that aren't having it because they they don't know how they would pay for it, they don't know exactly how much it would cost, and they don't know what would happen if they had the surgery and then couldn't pay the bill.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

You know, just to and we'll talk about sort of hormones and HRT and everything as well. There is just so much to cover here, isn't there? But you know, it again it comes to it comes back to the information, you know, it shouldn't be that you have heavy bleeding, your heavy bleeding, you know, it is related to your fluctuation in hormones that is very normal in perimenopause. And and because, you know, if those hormones, if that hormone imbalance is not treated, then yeah, your heavy bleeding will continue. But you wouldn't it be lovely if we could if we could offer women options that aren't going to cost them tens of thousands of dollars or euros and say, hey, you know, how about we just try rebalancing your hormones first and give you some HRT and let's see if we can get you feeling great that way before you have to spend an exorbitant amount of money and be put in a situation that, you know, is potentially quite dangerous. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

You know, the the nurse who gave me my blood result information back said, you know, my heart could stop at any moment because my iron levels were so low. I was so anemic that it had become life-threatening.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

And isn't it isn't it incredible the amount of and harping back to the um artificial insemination and and the amount of information you were given there in terms of the male that you were potentially going to take the sperm from? And yeah, wouldn't it be great if we had a catalogue of of women's health conditions starting at puberty that we could reference, you know? One of the big differences. Yeah, it'd be great, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_01 35:07

One of the big differences in those two experiences is that when I went to the infertility clinic, I was going as someone with financial resources. Like this is a thing that rich people do. They go to the infertility clinic, I paid out of pocket for this, you know, this was not through insurance. They treated me like a customer, a consumer. When I was dealing with my doctor through my insurance, trying to get my hysterectomy, you know, I was going through insurance that was paid for by my employer. I was three steps removed from being the actual customer to the doctor as far as they were concerned. They were getting paid by the insurance company that was getting paid by my employer. And you know, also I think you know, the fact that this is women's health does make a difference. You know, if I was trying to access, you know, I don't know, some kind of you know, Viagra or some kind of prostate thing, I think the pop the process might have been a lot easier and been handled a lot more differently, you know. But going in trying to talk about, you know, my women's health, I definitely I didn't feel it didn't feel taken care of. I didn't feel respected. You know, I felt like I was kind of hanging in the wind and I was trying to navigate a very stressful process without dying.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

And going back to I you were saying that you felt like all the way throughout your life that your, you know, your your women's health or your your periods or you know, everything was minimized. And I think that, you know, arguably uh regardless of your upbringing, most women will feel like that, whether it's been minimized, you know, in in the greater narrative or minimized at home. But what that arguably means is that actually when we come to talk about these symptoms, we don't have the vocabulary. So we don't know how to even begin the conversation about the things that are, you know, really affecting our quality of life as we get to our late 30s, early 40s, 50s, 60s, and so on.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

I have another example of that. After I had my daughter, we had a hard time breastfeeding. And when I went to the doctor, when we went to the pediatrician for her checkups right after she was born in those first couple of days, they were like, Oh, you know, how's everything going? I'm like, well, you know, we're having a hard time breastfeeding. And she's like, okay, and she checks a box and she goes through, and you know, and then at the end of the appointment, she's like, okay, you know, and you know, I have I answered all of your questions? I'm like, well, no. You know, I told you we're having a hard time breastfeeding. And she's like, Oh, well, you know, I'll make an appointment for you with the lactation consultant. I'm like, okay. So we finally got to see the lactation consultant, and she gives me this whole rundown on latch. And I'm like, well, that's not our problem. My daughter has a fantastic latch. You know, the problem is that I'm not making enough milk. You know, like the milk isn't coming. And she's like, oh. So then she finally kind of, you know, took a step back and examined me. And I was like, you know, I realize I have really kind of cone-shaped breasts. They're not, you know, round like most women's are. And she's like, where did you even hear that term? Like, that's exactly what you have, and that's what the problem is. You have hypo, I forget the term anymore, but like there was a specific problem with my breast. I didn't have enough like breast tissue to make enough milk for my daughter. And she was so surprised that like I even recognized that the shape of my breast might be a factor. And I had to push twice to get someone to even look to see what the problem was. It was really frustrating. In the meantime, my child wasn't getting enough milk, and they were just, oh, just give her formula. I'm like, well, you know, I wanted to breastfeed. Like, you know. Like I think that's important.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

And so you had your hysterectomy. And how did you feel? What happened after that? You know, tell didn't you're obviously your bleeding stopped? And and how did you feel? You know, how are you feeling in yourself?

SPEAKER_01 39:15

So I did not feel great directly afterwards. They told me that I would be recovered within two weeks, and I was not. Um, they retested my blood, and I was still severely anemic. I my body had gone down so far that it was not able to bounce back by itself. So I had to go in for transfusions. Um, they wanted me to do blood transfusions, and it was one of those things where you don't realize that you have a feeling about something until you're in that situation. Because when they offered me blood transfusions, I was like, oh no. Like I'm not Amish, I'm not religious, but I was like, I had an immediate visceral reaction, like, I don't want that. And I feel a bit blood transfusion gives me the ick a little bit. I'm a nurse, I don't know why. Yeah, I had a very strong ick. It's like I do not want someone else's blood in my body. Um, so we did uh iron IV transfusions instead, um, which unfortunately I did turn out to have an allergic reaction to. So you were allergic to iron. Yeah, to the iron IV. I started to um like they said my body started to like go in shock. So they just they gave me uh Benadryl IV with the iron IV the next time. Um I had to do it several times, and that seemed to mitigate most of the reaction. So that turned out fine. Um and it did help. You know, it took a couple of months.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

Did they did anyone try and address your your you know, the fact that you were effectively in perimenopause, obviously now postmenopause, surgical postmenopause? And did anyone, was this ever a discussion? Was this, you know, did was HRT discussed, were your options discussed, lifestyle medicine, anything apart from just whip out your uterus?

SPEAKER_01 41:15

So when I had my appointment with the gynecologist, you know, we had discussed kind of what she was going to do. And she was not going to take out my ovaries, she was going to just take out my uterus and my cervix, and she was gonna leave my ovaries. And I was like, I don't really want that. Like I really I'd rather have the ovaries gone. I don't want them to be a problem. My my grandmother went into menopause very early, like in her late 40s. My mother started menopause in her 40s as well. So, you know, I I really didn't see a point in leaving my ovaries. And the gynecologist was very firm that we were leaving the ovaries. She's like, there's nothing wrong with the ovaries, it's better to have them.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

She told me that only 50% of women after a hysterectomy go into menopause, that if we leave the ovaries, I would have a 50% chance of interesting statistics, and I'm not sure it's quite right, but you we'll fact-check that one.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

On the morning of my surgery, after I was already checked in and in my gown, the doctor came to see me right before the surgery, and she was like, Oh, you know, we can take out your ovaries if you want. And I was like, Well, you were so firm before that that was not what we should do. I was so like in that moment, I had kind of like decision paralysis. I was like, You told me definitely not to do that. And now you're saying we can do that. I don't know what to do. So in the end, you know, we did leave my ovaries. And shortly after I went back to work, like two months later, I was fired from that job. So I no longer had access to that doctor anymore. So she had told me that I had to come back once a year and have my ovaries checked. And that's been 10 years and I've never had it done once. So gosh.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

And and so now, and I mean, obviously, this was in the States and now you're in Spain. And and how would you describe where you are in your your kind of menopause journey now? You know, is this all a distant memory and you feel like you're firing on all four cylinders, or is this something that you're grappling with, you know, day to day, despite having your uterus removed?

SPEAKER_01 43:35

So I am super, super happy that I had my uterus removed. Um, I actually did see a gynecologist here in Spain after I arrived. My doctor's office had one on staff, and she was lovely. And she is she prescribed me HRT because I do feel like I am having symptoms. I've got the brain fog. Um I was having hot flashes at night. I would wake up soaked in sweat. Um, so she prescribed HRT, and I've been on that since then. Short and we did discuss the fact that I'm supposed to have my ovaries monitored, and she did offer to have that um scheduled for me. Unfortunately, I don't know exactly what happened, but she did leave that practice soon after, and they did not have a gynecologist in the office for quite a while. And I think they have one again now, but it's a dude. So we do have access to the gynecologist at the local hospital, and I have considered making an appointment there. Um, I have taken my daughter to see the gynecologist there, and they were lovely.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

So I am at least making sure that my daughter has access to the and that it's you know, I think that it's it's it's something that she knows that she has to access. Like I don't think I uh and as Brits, we're we're different. I mean, Rosie, have you ever seen a gynecologist? I just don't, it doesn't happen as Brits, that that is not something that we do. So we're always you know stumped now when we get into our 40s and these problems happen. But yeah, that's that's that's great that it it will be something that she is used to doing.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

In the US, it is customary for girls to see a gynecologist, like when they're young before they're sexually active, and then they tell women kind of best practices that's accepted in the US is that you are supposed to see your general doctor and your gynecologist every year for a checkup.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

So and bringing this back to your daughter again at the top of the show, you mentioned um emptiness syndrome, and it sounds like your HRT is sorted. What a how how's your mental health at the moment and how's that sort of manifesting at the moment with with your daughter um off to off in university? Did you say Madrid or Barcelona?

SPEAKER_01 46:01

Madrid. Yeah. Um, I think I'm doing pretty well. I write, so I spend a lot of time in my little fantasy lands that I have constructed with my little fantasy people that I have have built. Yeah. Um I I tend to, you know, I have zero interest in dating actual living humans. All of my romantic interests are in my books. Um this last book.

SPEAKER_03 46:32

Yeah, I think I'm just I'm just looking at Michael and we chatted before. She lives with eight dogs in the mountains and writes books. I I just we I think I might just come and live with Michael. You're gonna have to come visit, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We've got a poll, yeah. Yeah. So you're in a you're in a good place. Because there's a lot of ladies that will be listening to this that are probably dreading this.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

This um that you know, this kids sort of fly in the nest, and I do joke about it, but honestly, like my little fantasy constructions are you know full of green flags. You know, the the mothers are loving and caring, and the fathers are you know wonderful and present until they die. I do have I do tend to kill them off, but that's you know, that's that's another podcast.

SPEAKER_03 47:23

Um there's a lot of zombies in your books as well, Michael.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

I know there's zombie stories with happy endings. Okay, we like like hallmark-worthy, happy endings. And the the last one, the love interest, was based off of the character um played by Hector Alonzo in Princess Diaries, who is the uh like the bodyguard of Julie Andrews, and he's so sweet with her. And the previous one, the the love interest was based off of Pedro Pascal. Okay, you like Pedro. Yeah, like I I I'm having my my life, it's just all fiction.

SPEAKER_03 48:04

And we ask everybody um this question at the end of the podcast. Um, if you could talk and give one piece of that of advice to your younger self, what would that be?

SPEAKER_01 48:22

I think that being able to finally get the hysterectomy that I needed was absolutely life-changing for me. And I wish I would have done it sooner. I wish I would have done it 10 years sooner, and I think it would have really helped me. Like I I did everything I wanted to do, but it was hard, you know. And there were times when I was so tired and I just kind of pushed through. And there were times when I was I was in professional situations where you know, I was standing at the front of the room leading a meeting with, you know, 30 people in the room, all men, and I was bleeding like a stuck pig. And I think that if I wouldn't have had to deal with that, I I don't I don't think like I would have conquered the world. Like I think I would have done everything that I did, but it just would have been so much easier for me.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

And I I would have wished that for my younger self. I needed a break.

SPEAKER_03 49:21

Always. Michael, it's been amazing talking to you.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

Thank you. I hope this is helpful. You know, I hope that other women hear this and you know it helps them to know what their options are and to advocate for themselves.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

And just quickly, I think it's just it seems that when we reflect on on everything that you've told us today, it seems like there have been, you know, really contrasting points throughout your your journey of womanhood where you know you've had such agency and and then in contrast you've had none. And and I think that that's that's a really interesting comparison. I think it will resonate with a lot of women.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

At the end of the day, I did have agency. Even when it was hard, even when I had to fight for it, you know, at the end of the day when it came to scheduling my hysterectomy, I was like, I need to do this, and I don't know how much it's gonna cost me, but I know that if I can't pay for it, they're not gonna put it back. I will figure it out. So I did have agency. It was just hard. It's just yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:25

I'm in awe of you, and I think you're such a brave lady for all you've been through and for just making the leap of having your uh having your girl and and moving to Spain because you want to. Um just quickly, because I know you've got a book that would help other people in your situation who are thinking of coming to Spain. What's that called? It's called Let's Move to Europe.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

And it is specifically for Americans who are interested in leaving the US and heading to Europe. My journey was about Spain, so that's what I know the most about. But it does touch on other countries and other rules and not just kind of how to do it, but what it's like when you get here. Kind of what are the the challenges that's challenges that you face once you get here. So you guys will not know, but for Americans, getting a driver's license in Spain is very difficult. It's a process.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:21

And we've not even had time to talk about the dogs, but I've got a lot of footage of my dog um actually coming and speaking to you, so I'm sure we'll get that on the social and tag. There's no there's no doubt that the dogs will appear, and we'll tag in your dog charity that you founded as well. Michael, thank you so much for your time today. Me and Katie are gonna stay on. Um, I'll follow up with you by email. But thank you again for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

Thank you, pleasure. It's been great. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

This episode of Fannying Around is supported by Clearboost, a women's health supplement range I created after years of working in clinic and seeing how confused and overwhelmed women felt by supplements. Each product is designed to support the symptoms that I see most often: hormone changes, low energy, poor sleep, low mood, and stress. Using ingredients chosen for their specific roles in hormone regulation, energy production, and nervous system support. The idea was to replace long random supplement lists with a small number of targeted formulas so women know what they're taking and why. Find out more at clearboost.eu.

SPEAKER_03 52:47

Wow, Michael. Love her.

SPEAKER_02 52:49

Oh my gosh, what a woman. I want to be Michael. I definitely want to go and live with her. I want to live in Michael's fantasy world. That's where I want to live. Minus the zombies. You know, I feel like there's enough zombies in my house to be honest.

SPEAKER_03 53:07

What an amazing. It sure is, yeah, and me. Um, what an amazing lady. And I think we knew from the top of the show um that we perhaps weren't gonna have enough time to cover everything. Um her menopause journey was um, you know, interesting enough without the injection of, you know, the politics that surrounded her her move, um the you know, the arrival of her daughter and the artificial insemination, and that is fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 53:42

Oh, I just had so many questions. So many questions. But I just I particularly enjoyed, and you know, I uh for me, everything is about hormones, everything is about, you know, choice, everything is about, you know, women's health. And I was just so interested in the contrast between, you know, the the agency that she had or the impact how empowered she felt when she was effectively choosing sperm to, you know, in contrast to to the journey that she's been on with her hysterectomy. And you know, I know and I I really I'm not I'm not, you know, what's the word? I'm not dismissing how how um uh empowered she felt about the decision of having the hysterectomy and how she feels like that was the right decision. But for me, I just, you know, as a as a women's health nurse and a mental specialist, I know that there were other options. And I know that perhaps that wasn't her only choice, but actually that was what was presented for her, and it worked out as the same as it has with other women that we've spoken to.

SPEAKER_03 54:49

It worked out to be the best thing, but there's just I think it worked out to be the best thing because it's it uh it put a stop to most of her problems, but that could have probably happened a lot sooner, given the right treatment and the right advice and the right information.

SPEAKER_02 55:08

Oh, that's the thing, and it gets me every time, Rosie. And I I don't know why, but I find, you know, I find talk about having a hysterectomy to solve problems. I find it quite triggering, actually. Yeah. I was twitching a little bit for you. I thought I know what came. I just I really struggle with it, and it's not because it's not because I think it's the wrong thing to do, it's not, you know, it doesn't matter what I think. It's it's the fact that these women all arrive to that decision because they are desperate. Yeah, because they are desperate to not feel how they felt, and whether that be because of progesterone intolerance, whether that be because of heavy bleeding, it's just that desperation that I feel, you know, as a uh a conscientious menopause specialist, an advocate for women's health, and an advocate for choice. Should we get to that point where we're so desperate that this is, you know, a logical step? It just I find it hard.

SPEAKER_03 56:16

What's really interesting for me is that we've done um the number of podcasts now, and we've analysed um women in the UK, we've analysed treatment in Spain, and talking to Michael, um, the system in place in the States, all very different systems, and not knocking any of them, but even with those different systems, it's still not clear, we still haven't got the right information. No. It's not a geographical problem. It's a problem with being a woman that we're just not given the right advice from day one.

SPEAKER_02 56:53

Right. And you know, um, and I feel like probably this will come up again, but you know, uh I'm an NHS nurse to my core, you know. We I worked on a busy, uh, you know, uh a busy NHS ward. Um, and for people listening abroad, you know, National Health Ward, where it was a teaching hospital, I worked with excellent gynecologists, and we took out people's uteruses all the time. You know, that was our bread and butter day in, day out. And I can honestly say that, you know, as a senior nurse at the time, I can count on one hand over a period of eight years where I discussed hormones, the impact of hysterectomies, uh, with these women. We just took them out. You know, exactly, exactly what really the the you know, Michael was describing. I went in, we talked about the cost, and and then it was removed, and I, you know, that was our yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:53

Um I I don't know if I'll put this bit in, but it I was just thinking, like, you've got a a a male that's impotent. Do we just is one of the options to remove yourself? Yeah, just lop it off, it doesn't need it anymore. It's like with a rusty knife.

SPEAKER_02 58:11

But I think this is what this is what pisses me off is that I feel like why like it for a star, actually it's factually incorrect. So, you know, to think that you could just remove something from your body and it not have an impact, you know, structurally, or you know, oh well, you don't use it for baby making anymore, so whip it out, like it's not that simple. It actually isn't that simple. And you know, that doesn't mean that it's the right or the wrong choice. And I I really want to make sure that that's very clear. This isn't an element, you know, there is no element of judgment whether that is the right or the wrong decision because ultimately only Michael knows that. But but it's just, you know, have we given enough education to women about what is their uterus for? You know, what impact is this gonna have? What are your other options?

SPEAKER_03 59:05

What was mental when she was on the the table, uh table, trolley, waiting to go into surgery? The doctor came on and went, Yeah, we can whip out you every as well if you want. Oh, shut up.

SPEAKER_02 59:20

Honestly, but it's like this is the thing, isn't it? And it goes back to what Michael said right at the beginning, like minimalizing, constant minimalizing of like, you know, they're so unimportant, and this is such an unimportant, you know, blase decision that actually we've changed our mind, we can just do it. Do you want to do it? A bit like, you know, do you want to add something last minute? The supermarket checkout.

SPEAKER_03 59:44

Uh like it's it's just I just honestly stats she'd given her, which I know you pulled up at the time, uh, just pulled it out of the air. You you know, I don't know whether she did or not, but I'm alluding to the fact that she went, well, 50% of women that don't have their ovaries really don't go into don't go into menopause straight away. Based on what? Yeah, based on what based on nothing because then she came to the operating table to say, Well, yeah, we can whip them out if you like, you know. We're doing a bog off today, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:16

Yeah, it it's it's just, you know, I just it it drives me mad. And I I I think that there are, you know, uh excellent, excellent, excellent, truly fabulous gynecologists uh that do amazing jobs. And you know, this is certainly not an attack on on you know the job that anyone does, but it is just incredibly frustrating where everything that we talk about, there is just a massive absence of information on how your body works, why it's doing what it's doing, and what are your options. And again, you know, for the tenth time, I will say it doesn't matter what you choose, you know, only you know what the right decision for you is. But I would argue that you can only make that decision if you've been given every single bit of information. And I loved that Michael said, you know, that actually with her daughter, these are really common conversations and you know, she's reshaping the future, and that's what we should all be doing. And you know, I I I think I have these conversations with my boys, they don't give a doodas about, you know, the fact that we've got periods and wombs, and they don't care, but you know, soon they'll understand that actually, you know, there's lots of women in their lives, and these women have uteruses and periods, and it should be a conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:37

I think nor just just making it normal, normalizing it and having it just I remember my uh back in the day, my brother, who's 18 months older than me, always knew what colour tampons to go and get my mum from the shelf, and go, Mom, Mom, shall I go and get the tampons? Yeah, yeah. And and that's you know, that was back in the early 80s.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:56

That's amazing, Rosen.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:58

You know, he and is a very kind and considerate, caring husband and father now. And I think just you know, there isn't this sh shame of hiding tampons up your sleeve of your shirt or you know, feeling a bit silly asking, you know, someone to grab them from the shops for you, or you know, uh it it does start when it does start when they're young, you know. But it does. You know, it shouldn't have to be this, you know, strange thing that we talk about. It's just very normal. Yeah, normal.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:30

Absolutely. Amen to that.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:37

Fannying around was brought to you by Everything's Rosie, presented by me, Rosie Frost and Katie Pitt Allen, and sponsored by Clear Boost Supplements and the Women's Health Clinic Europe.