Episode 7 - Fannying Around with Marina

Midlife, Anorexia and Learning to Listen to Your Body

This week on Fannying Around, we are joined by Marina, a 50-year-old mum and businesswoman living in Jávea, Spain. Marina's story explores body image, hormones, burnout, nourishment and what it really means to reconnect with yourself.

Marina speaks openly about growing up around restriction, developing anorexia as a teenager, using alcohol to cope, becoming a mother, and the long journey back to feeling safe and comfortable in her own body.

The conversation moves through perimenopause, exhaustion, brain fog, stress, weight changes, fasting culture, nutrition, alcohol, hormone health and the moment Marina realised her body wasn’t failing her at all… it was trying to protect her.

Katy also explains why so many women feel disconnected from their bodies in midlife, how hormone changes affect everything from cortisol to energy levels, and why listening to your body might be the most important thing we’re never taught to do.

This episode is honest, emotional, funny in places, and full of the kinds of conversations women rarely have out loud.

Topics include:
• Perimenopause and hormone changes
• Anorexia and body image
• Alcohol and coping mechanisms
• Brain fog and burnout
• Nutrition and fasting culture
• Motherhood and identity
• Learning to trust your body again

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

This episode is supported by the Women's Health Clinic. At the Women's Health Clinic, you'll be seen by our accredited menopause specialists working to the latest international clinical guidance. We believe that knowledge is power. When you understand what's changing in your body and why, you can make decisions with clarity and confidence and feel back in control of your health. We really take the time to listen to your symptoms using evidence-based assessment and testing where appropriate and explain what's happening in a way that actually makes sense. From there, we support women to explore all effective treatment options, including prescriptions when needed. Our aim is simple: to optimize women's health care wherever you are. No funnying around. Find out more at thewomen's Healthclinic.eu.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

We talk about how so many women live disconnected from their bodies for years. How we push through, ignore the signs, blame ourselves, try the fasting, the supplements, the gym, the next thing, the better thing, without ever really stopping to ask, what does my body actually need? Marina's story is about learning to listen. Not in a fluffy lighter candle and buy a journal way. Although crack on if that's your thing, but in real, honest, sometimes an uncomfortable way. It's about nourishment over punishment, curiosity over shame, and realising that midlife might be the point where your body finally says, right, are you listening now? Right then. Let's fanny around with Marina. Hello. Heads up, Katie Pitt Allen joined the podcast. I'm there.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

I'm coming. I'm here. I've just been in my little box for about two hours, so I feel like slightly blocked.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

So Katie used to have really bad problems with her mic and her sound. So now she has to go and sit in, like, is effectively like a giant shoebox, don't you?

SPEAKER_03 2:19

It's not even giant. It it's like a tiny miniature matchbox, is where I'm sitting.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Marina, tell us a little bit about you then. And um when we put the the fannying around bat signal out and said, Come and speak to us, ladies, share your stories. What made you think, yes, I'm going to join those two maniacs and talk about myself for an hour?

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Well, firstly, I love talking about myself. No. Um I was um, I think I was just really drawn to the to the topic. Um, and I've had some insights into my own body and into my own relationship to my own body, and I thought that maybe discussing it here might be helpful. But also, um, it's really funny, as I was saying, I've just joined a nutrition program and I'm now on it for the next six weeks with these two amazing women who are one of them is a hormone expert, and the other one is a nutritionist, and they're both really buff and really light lean, and one of them was an athlete, a tennis pro, and the other, I mean, they're just yeah, any any kind of Facebook reel, they're at the gym pulling weights. And so one of the things that I started to notice last year, actually, I think, was that um while I went to the gym and I wanted to get strong, I kept putting the weight on. So it was really fascinating to me. I was like, well, this is really interesting. Um, what's going on? That this is new for me. So if I usually if I do exercise, then you know the weight would drop off and everything. But I kept it kept going up, and I was like, oh my god, this is crazy.

unknown 4:05

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

And so I'd been in and out of um doing all sorts of other things, such as um uh fasting and and and just wanting to understand I know, and and just wanting to understand how it worked, and of course, um I have a tendency to when I'm drawn to something to get really, really, really um obsessed by it for a while. And then I'll just get, but I'm like, okay, I'm done with that, I'm on something else that I'll get really obsessed by. And so I started um just exploring this whole domain of autophagy and ketones and ketosis and um like just exploring what it would feel like if I if I did these things. And so, you know, for a while it felt great. However, what I've come to realize is that actually while I was doing all of this, it was adding a lot more stress to my body. So I I only have come to this conclusion quite recently. But what I've realized is that when we're looking for answers, though that journey that we go on actually can be really beneficial because it's part of the this, not this, but this. Not that, but maybe this. And that's really helpful, I've I believe. As somebody that only really learns by doing and experiencing, not just by reading a book. I find reading books really difficult in terms of um assimilating knowledge. Like I'm not the type of person that can read a book and then go and do the thing and understand it. I'm much better at give me the experience so that I can embody that, learn from it, and then kind of come out of that experience going, well, this is actually what I've learned. This has been my experience, and actually doesn't work for me. Or it did work for me ultimately. But what I what I've come to also realize is that when you're in the quandary, when you're in the reflection, when you're in the I wonder what, I wonder if, I wonder how, hmm, in the curiosity of it all, it makes this journey so much easier. Because I know that when we don't understand generally as women, what we tend to do is blame ourselves, we tend to worry, we tend to blame, we tend to shame, we tend to, you know, do all the things. And so that doesn't actually make it worse, right? Um, but I so I've I've now landed on something that made total sense to me, which is sustainability and nourish and nourishment, and and going, well, what feels good to my body? I mean, starving myself really actually started not to feel great.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

I just wanted to talk about your relationship with your body and what that's been like over the years, starting from a young woman to now, and you've spoken there about um weight loss and weight gain and being happy in yourself. Just talk us through a little bit about um your experience so far.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

So gosh, I it wasn't until I was about 35 that my relationship with my body started to change. Um and I uh when my well, first of all, let's talk about environment because my mother was a ballet dancer. So for those of you that don't know what other the how ballet dancers relate to their bodies, they're really strict. And even though she stopped dancing when she was about 21, 22 because she had my two sisters, the way she lived her life was very much on that same trajectory. So she would restrict what she ate enormously, and that's the kind of environment I was brought up in.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

I imagine that was very challenging as a young woman.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Well, it was normal for me, but I had a big appetite. So I loved food, right? And so I see my mother, and she'd be eating this cottage cheese and a little bit of brown at lunchtime, and and then not much at dinner, and I was like, oh, I I suppose that's what I'm meant to be doing then. I was a boarding school for most of my my my young life anyway, so we were given all sorts of things, and um, but I didn't really notice that I had a weird relationship with food until I hit puberty, so but that was really more about my confidence and basically not having any whatsoever in the least. Um, I hit 13, 14, and I don't know, there was a switch. It was weird. It was like I never really thought about my body, I never really thought about what it looked like, I never really thought about what I looked like. I and I hit 13, 14 and suddenly became, oh my god, super self-conscious. And I think I just went into massive depression actually, but no, I didn't talk to anybody about it. I started having suicidal thoughts. Um, I everything was really black. Right. And unbeknownst to me at that point, um, I made a decision, but unbeknownst to me, and I'd tell you in a sec, that the decision that I made back then, without me knowing it, actually saved my life. So that decision back then was to basically go, um, I feel so unlovable. Oh, I guess the only way to to to actually feel lovable or that somebody would love me is to look thin. So that was the start. And so I stopped eating. I I I um I started and I drank very heavily. Um and by the about the age, yeah, about the age of 18, I was about seven and a half stone or seven stone or something like that. I'm now at around 10, and I'm I'm I'm a good weight, but back then I wasn't eating, my hair was falling out, and I was drinking. And that brought on a whole barrage of other experiences. Um, I lost my virginity to a guy that didn't care. So I didn't really understand how these experiences were forming the way I viewed my body because I didn't have the awareness that I do now. I didn't have the awareness that I did at the age of about 35, 36. And so what would happen is, is I would use alcohol to have sex. So I couldn't have it without it. And then and so though all of this was going on. All of this was going on, all of this is going on. Once again, I didn't really have the awareness. And it wasn't until I was about 35 that I well, I kind of started to go on my own personal development journey. I got really interested in transformation. Um, I decided that I wanted to invest time and energy in understanding why I felt the way I did about myself. And as I got more grounded, more clear, more sort of as my head started to be less noisy, I I realized things about the way I was being that were like, why the fuck would I be doing that? So what then occurred was that I realized that I would have sex drunk because I couldn't stand the sight or of my own body when I was in bed with somebody else. I had so much noise about what I looked like, how I felt. Um, I just wanted to be free. And when I had that insight, I realized that it all came back to how what had happened back when I was about 16, 17 years old when I'd lost my virginity, is that it didn't feel safe um to do to have sex without actually um being without having alcohol. So it would because the experience was so horrible, it it felt like I can't do that that way, it's too painful. So the relationship I had with my body was a particularly, I don't like it my body very much. Um a rejection, if you will. And and um it wasn't until I actually got pregnant 36, 37, that that at that point I was like, well, I've got to look after my body, I've got a baby inside of me. Oh so that was really the unraveling. So it wasn't until my late 30s that um the the the the sort of inquiry really started about what's going on with my body. Um and and as such, I had a major epiphany, which was my anorexia kept me alive. Because while I was obsessing about not eating, I wasn't thinking about killing myself.

SPEAKER_03 13:44

Because it gave you the control, Marina, right? It gave you Yeah, massive control.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

So it was almost like a safety, it was almost like this way I can I can keep myself alive, I'm feeling safe. So it was a huge thing for me to have that realization. And after I had my son, I went into um he didn't sleep for about two years, and I was so exhausted, so exhausted, to the point where I I would wake up, have energy for about two hours, and then need to go back to bed again. So I looked for a fun, I looked for somebody that could help me out with that because I was like, this is not normal. And that's when I started, that's when the unraveling really started with my body, actually, because I started to kind of we got the we got everything back and we realized I was completely depleted, but also I had all sorts of gut stuff going on. And at that point, it became because I didn't want to have a look at it. It was almost like I knew that something was up. I didn't want to have a look at it, I didn't want to go in there, I didn't want to have to deal with my body, I didn't want to, I didn't want to, I didn't want to. And what was interesting about this all was that I must have spent so much time in my head because ultimately, when you don't want to be in your body, when you don't have a great relationship with it, you tend to spend time up here, completely disconnected. Yeah. So I didn't really have an understanding, I just felt really shit. So I just was like, well, I better kind of look at that then. It was almost like to the point of whatever's going on with me, I need to have a look at this because it has to be better than me ignoring, carrying on ignoring it. And so that was when I started to actually get curious about as I we unraveled this, I realized that actually it was an opportunity for me to get curious about my body. It was an opportunity for me to understand my body better, it was an opportunity for me to know and and and kind of start this journey of how do I eat so that my body feels good. It stopped being a thing about losing weight, I guess, and became more of a thing about how do I maintain a healthy body?

SPEAKER_03 16:10

Sustenance.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yeah, and I've been in and out of that reality for a while, by the way. It's not so clear-cut. It wasn't like, oh, yes, and now this. There are old pieces of conditioning that would still linger.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Um it's a long time to go without help, Marina, from the age of 18 to 35, did you say? Yeah, but I was there at any point where you said, I mean, I'm not quite sure what your support network was like, relationship with your siblings, your friends, your parents. That's a long time to exist like that without asking for help.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Well, I did actually. I did actually have help. Um, but once again, it was all very psychological. It wasn't sort of body, and um which obviously that they are connected, but it wasn't until I was about 31, 32 that I started to really delve into this whole transformational world.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

And I I think as well, also that's very brave because actually when I speak to women who have previous experience of anorexia or bulimia, that real disconnect does, it does, it does exist. And I think that it then becomes very difficult to then talk about food in in any way, shape, or form, let alone, okay, so you have this thing that's your enemy, and how are we gonna make it your friend? How are we gonna make this work for you? And to tackle that head-on, I think must have been a real challenge, Marina.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

So what was interesting about this was that I it wasn't like head-on, actually. It was as I worked in other parts of my life, I started to realize that well, namely the relationships I had around me and mainly relationship, and and the thing is, is the only relationship we're ever in is the one with ourselves, right? So as I noticed that, and as I started to realize that, I'm like, I'm the only one in this relationship with myself. So if I want my relationships around me to change, I'm going to have to be the one to do that. And as I started doing that, I realized that I started to actually become more loving towards myself and you know, choosing different things. So, you know, I would I would do all sorts of drama, like I would just attract loads and loads of drama in my life. And over time I realized actually that it's not what I want, it's not good for me, let alone anybody else that I kind of am in the vicinity of. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:14

And what what would you say the relationship with your body is now, Marina? Oh, it's so different.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Is it in what way? Tell me, tell me. Um, so as I said, I I I've come to this point where I just want to nourish my body, I want to have energy, and I want to ensure that my body has everything that it needs for it to do the thing that it's really good at, which is to support me. And the thing I've noticed is that when I have really focused on that, what seems to emerge, because I think it's a bit like my sense of this, by the way, is that our bodies want to support us, and it's so fucking intelligent. Like we birth babies, and the babies come out and they like like they grow inside of us and we don't do any of that shit. It just does it, or there's like this energy that does that for us, right? And I'm like, the intelligence in that.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

So well, I I and you just to just to jump in, because I I spoke about so much in clinic today, and I feel like I say it sometimes and you know in a very trite way, but just an example to what you're saying, Marina, is that you know, estrogen actually supports every single process, a regulatory process in our body. It is a super, super, super, super, super hormone, super anti-inflammatory. It is our superpower. And your body is so clever that when you don't have enough estrogen, then what will happen is your body will start metabolizing your testosterone and turning it into estrogen so it can continue to support the regulatory processes in your body. And that is just, I just think that that's pretty amazing.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

It is, and it compensates. So I I went back into um exploring my body again. Um I I I went to functional medicine lady um because once again I was really tired and I knew that I'd started to have brain fog again, and I'm like, uh, this isn't this isn't this isn't right actually for me. I was exhausted by eight o'clock in the after in the afternoon. I was like, oh my god, I can't keep my eyes open. So I was like, I've been here before, I need to go back and get checked. And I did, and I got the Dutch test and I got my hormones checked, and literally my day was like this cortisol, right up, crash. That was it. That was basically what what my body was up to. And so I realized that actually there were other things going on as well. Like heavy metals, et cetera, and how the board the body stores the heavy metals because it doesn't feel safe enough to let it go when it's got a whole bunch of other things going on. And I was like, wow, it really knows what it's doing. And there we are going, my body's shit, it's breaking down, it doesn't know what it's up to. And actually, the opposite couldn't be true. Like it's so not true. In fact, I would say, trust the body. The body knows. The body's in the present moment. The body actually does its thing. And as you say, like it compensates when it doesn't have what it needs. And so it does all this weird stuff. And you're like, it doesn't work. And you're like, well, actually, what does your body need? What's it asking of you? I think the thing that we've forgotten to do is to really listen. Because nobody ever taught us that. Nobody has given us sovereignty to say, or any kind of agency, to say, actually, the thing that we're going to teach you is to listen. And this is how we're going to do it.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

And I, you know, I think as well, going back to how at the beginning of the conversation where you were saying that when you first started thinking about how to optimize your body, then you looked at autophagy and you looked at fasting. And I think that we overcomplicate these things because actually our body does that automatically. You know, unless you're eating every single second day, your body will do that automatically. If you go 12 hours without food, it knows how to work. And actually, I I see so many confused women. And quite often, I saw a lady today, and she was saying that she'd just spent, you know, hundreds of pounds, uh, euros, sorry, on on supplements. And she'd bought selenium, she'd bought a bit of this, she'd bought some ashwagandha, she'd bought hundreds of things, and she was literally just throwing everything at it. And it was when I stopped her, and you know, what are we trying to achieve? So what are you hoping to achieve? And actually, she couldn't answer the question because it was just really confusing. And when you unpicked it, all she wanted to do was actually just to feel better. But when we looked at diet and simple things that we forget, then actually there were a lot of changes to be made there.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Yeah, and so um one of the things that you know it's so interesting, right? I think I heat you you you think you you eat a certain way, you think it's healthy, you think it's this, you think it's that. And one of the insights I I had yesterday actually around this is because I'm I'm working with these two amazing women, as I already said, and one of the things they talk about is fat adaptation at the beginning. So to stabilize the sugar, because one of the things that I've realized about me is that I would have these crashes. So I was like, what the fuck is that about? And literally it is the sugar crash. It's like you, and so they just want you to stabilize for the first two weeks, and then we and then they, you know, it's not like you you take carbs out completely for the rest of your life, it's just to adapt in that state.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

Well, and and the reason also, and I'm just gonna add, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna add the scaffolding to what you've just said, because actually what we know is when we look at women, let's say over the age of 35, and we look at the role that your hormones play when we're looking at insulin resistance. So, you know, in layman's terms, how does your body process glucose? Well, a lot differently than it did when you were 29. And it doesn't mean that you have to never eat sugar or carbs ever again, but you are always going to be on some kind of roller coaster unless you adapt your diet. And it doesn't have to be miserable and boring, but bread, pasta, potatoes, and rice probably aren't going to be your friend all day long, Monday to Friday.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Right, and and so what's been fascinating is at this point in the process, what I've started to realize is that what I thought was too much food on my plate is actually exactly the right amount of food. Of course, um, but it's the right type of food. So, like huge amount of green and then you know, X amount of protein and then X amount of fat for now. I mean it will change. But um, what I realized was how distorted my reality of what too much food looked like, right? And what I thought was healthy over um throwing a supplement at it versus actually getting the micronutrients in so that I can have that stability. And I I I cannot begin to tell you the difference that just there's I'm on my second day, the difference that it's already making. Um, I don't have any sugar cravings, I feel full, I feel nourished, and I feel clear in my head. But the other thing that I've also done is to stop alcohol. This has been a game changer. I'm sure. And I knew it would be. I knew it would be, but it was a habit of a fucking lifetime, and it got to the point where I was so scared to not have it in my life of what that would look like, as to how that would be, the types of whether I could ever go out again. I mean, all of this anxiety arose, but it was this moment where I was, I'm done. I'm just done. So I stopped from the beginning of January. I've had what, maybe a couple of wines, but that's it. I don't drink in the same way as I used to. I can, I don't have to go, I can go out and have a w a water. So what I've realized is is that this entire sort of story and reality was just kind of, I was like, well, let me experiment, let me get curious. Is it possible to do this? Um, and and what would it feel like? And then there was this moment when I realized I value my brain over the boobs. That it was almost like, what do I need to value more so that this changes? And I realized that I actually really value my brain. I really value having clarity, I really value having energy, I really value feeling good in my body. Because the interesting thing about this was I was trying to do that in the wrong way. By drinking booze, I'd have clarity, I wouldn't feel so tired. But it was this sort of like never-ending kind of sort of the dog at the time to catch its tail because you would you would feel it, but it was it was almost like fake. It's not sustainable.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

And I think, you know, uh I think when we look at perimenopause, menopause, hormone change, whatever you want to call it, a transitional period, although I don't particularly like that. But I think when we look at this time, then you know, it is an opportunity of uh, you know, all of these wonderful things that can happen. And yeah, it's a massive pain in the ass. And if you don't get it right, it's really easy to cock it up and you will spend 10, 15, 20 years feeling hideous. However, it doesn't have to be like that, and actually just listening to your body and taking because I I really do feel, you know, it it gets to the point in it around this hormonal change where you really don't have a choice but to listen. You have no choice.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Your body is going, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello. Engine light is off.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

So Marina, you you when we started the conversation, I asked about your relationship with your body. Um, let's fast forward now then. How old are you now, if you don't mind us asking? I'm I'm I'm the young 50-year-old.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

However you want me to be.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Old enough to know better, young enough still not to care. Um something like that anyway. But it it's been a few years, shall we say, since since your 30s, and it sounds like you've been on a really interesting journey. And I think we were speaking before Katie journ joined us about the thread that ties a lot of the podcast episodes together is this lack of information, and usually it's a lack of medical information. Um, yours is your story is a little bit different, but again, still comes down to this information and being informed about our bodies and how they work and what they do and what we can do to fuel them and help them. What's that relationship like now?

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Well, it's a lot more intimate. So it's it's a lot more kind of I love being with my body. So, you know, whatever that looks like, going to the gym, going for a walk, you know, what do I fancy to eat? I have conversations with it, whereas before it was like I have no body, it doesn't exist. Why do I feel so shit? And um it gets a look in, I guess. It's a bit like what would my body love to do today? What can I how can I nourish it in the way that it would feel really good to me? I live in it, right? So yeah, I I try and keep my house really clean and tidy, but then I'm trashing my body and it's like, uh, what doesn't make any sense, right? So it's a bit like um, how can I how can I respect what I what I've been given? Um and and so I I asked, I I just kind of become a came but became aware that I was just asking different questions about that. Um, so my relationship to my body is a far better one, of course, then you can always go deeper. Um I'm I'm not the type of person to spend hours having my root my my my skin routine and it's just something I just don't do, but maybe that's you know the next invitation. Um but you're right, Katie. Like that there comes a point when that it's just like your body goes, Look, I'm just so fucking bored of you not listening to me anymore. I'm gonna I'm gonna make you feel like really shit so that you actually notice me. And and so like you take care of me. Hello. And actually, I see that as an incredible intelligence. It's like I'm gonna make you feel so shit that you have no choice but to go and get a little bit more informed or to do the thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

Do you and do you know what's really cool about this, Marina, is that we kind of touched on the fact that the body is really clever and it it does these things, you know, that to protect us and support us. And what is really, really cool about this stage of life is that it is actually a bona fide critical health window. And so what that means is, you know, all and this is, you know, not according to me, this is clinical data that says that the things that you do or don't do in this period of perimenopause or menopause, early menopause will shape your future health. So that is just really incredible, is that actually your body is not only putting the engine light on so you listen, but also the things that you do or the way that you listen have the power to shape what the next 10, 20, 30, 40 years look like.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

That's yeah, and I love that. And I also love the fact that it's actually at the right time. So I could not have been in this place to do what I'm doing now in my early 30s. And I and I guess it's a bit like um preparing to have a baby. You know, if you prepare before you have the baby, you look after yourself. That the the kind of the whole experience is so much better. I certainly didn't. And my body was like, well, fuck you.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

I think you get this renewed appreciation for your body, don't you? I mean, I don't countless people I've spoken to who have had injuries. I had um trapped nerve in my neck, and I know a good friend of mine um fell and and and you know did some really um interesting fractures onto it to her arm. And this we just kept saying to people when we when when we'd meet or or with with friends that we'd meet, I just want to be better now. Like I'm not you know, and you you forget what being well is like.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

And I think that that's it, realizing that actually you're not you're not gonna be here forever. And I want to, I don't know, there's a part of me that because I I also my mother my mother ended up having something called cortical basal degeneration. Um, and that hit her around 58, 59. She was diagnosed with it then, and it's a degenerative disease of the lower cortex, and I had to see her go through that and experience it at a and I was like, oh wow, okay. So that for me was very confronting. Um, and it it it kind of woke me up to the fact that I'm not gonna be here forever, but also you know, they don't know enough about it, but a lot of this is is your body going, you need to listen to me because ultimately you need to be changing the way that you're doing things, whatever. And she was under a lot of stress for a lot of years, and so I that really marked me. And so I hit 50 and I'm like my my my commitment right now is really just to listen and and and respect what my body needs, and I want to feel alive, I want to feel good, and I want to feel energized. So, in order for that to be the case, if I if that is really my soul's desire, then I've got to align my lifestyle to that. And yeah, is it a pain in the ass? Well, sometimes it is because you've got to change shit up, and you're like, oh no, I have to now eat that thing, or oh, um, I I'm gonna get up and it's just changing small things that can make a really, really big difference. And um, but once again, as you said, it gets to the point where you just like you feel like you've it's a non-choice, it really is a non-choice.

SPEAKER_03 37:05

There's no choice, no choice. And I, you know, I I I meet lots of women who have made really positive choices, and then I meet lots of women who have literally been banging their head against a wall for about 15 years, and they are tired, they are inflamed, they are sad, they are sore, uh, you know, all of these things, and uh and I, you know, I feel like a bloody broken record, but you just think actually, if you were given the information or just an insight into how your body was going to change and the fact that what it requires will be different, would you have spent the last 15 years or the last 10 years or eight years, you know, just literally doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for a different outcome? Because I I don't think so. I don't I don't, you know, I don't think women are stupid, I think we're incredibly uh resilient, but I think may that be our greatest strength and weakness, actually.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Anyone that goes to your practice is very lucky to have you because I think um there's a lot of information out there now, but it can be very confusing because it can be very contradictory, but also um once again, it's a bit like when we know what's going on, we can then stop blaming ourselves. Absolutely, and so I d the work I do with women is is it doesn't matter what work we do, right? It it all comes back to the same thing, which is if they if we don't understand what's going on, blame ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 38:48

And uh I you know I have to be careful, but uh again, uh you know, last week there was a lady who, and she was a young lady, and she was sat opposite me saying, you know, I I've she was so apologetic. I've I think I'm a bit more anxious and I'm not quite sleeping, and you know, I feel like my body's changing. And her husband came in with her, and her husband was as quick as she was opening her mouth, he was then saying, But do you not think it's got more to do with the fact that you're drinking lots of wine on the weekend? And she said, Well, you know, I don't I don't know. Maybe, maybe. Oh, yeah, no, okay. Well, I I think probably I'll just go home and just take my supplements. And it took everything that I had not to jump off of my chair, launch myself across the desk, and throttle this man. But I was very professional because actually this was like a window into what happens to women, every woman in the world, because that's an insight into her own brain. Because what questions do we ask ourselves? You know, are these changes really happening to my body or am I just imagining it? And shall I just carry on and you know, not acknowledge the changes to myself or to anyone else? And and that's where we come unstuck, not because we're stupid.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

No, and I think it's a big identity shift too. So but but it's not marked. And I and I deal with this with women all the time because when I I work with women who inherit wealth and suddenly they land this this thing, right? And and they're like, but I wasn't prepared for this. Now what? And so this is exactly the same. It's like when there's no mark, when it's not marked, when then we don't know what to expect, it becomes this. I am I don't know what the hell's going on. I don't know how to get from A to B. I don't if if I don't know I'm in Birmingham, how am I supposed to get to London? But nobody's told me that I'm supposed to go from A to B. And so when we understand what we're dealing with, we can then make the changes in a way that feel really good to us. But until that point, we're throwing things, and and what you were saying, it's like we don't know, or we don't, it's out of our purview, we don't kind of see it because something's always done, so it can't be that then. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 41:12

And I think there's so many, you know, like you said about fasting, which is just horrendous. We could do a whole new podcast about fasting, but you know, fasting and and you know, women that say, Oh no, breakfast, I don't eat breakfast, never even breakfast. And all of these things, like, how are you supposed to follow the rules when you don't know what they are? Right. Um you know, the your body changes and it changes so uh, you know, so insidiously that I think a lot of women don't understand that it is about just refreshing what you thought you knew about your body.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

I think a lot of ladies feel silly as well, because we're asking for the answers because the information isn't out there. And I think we've spoken, you know, you've got to ask because it's it's not there, or it's unclear what is the correct answer, or you know, at least so you almost go with this. Oh, I feel a bit silly, but oh, it could just be that actually it's me being silly. And it's that kind of attitude. And if you've got someone fueling that, a husband or friend, whoever, you know, you're you're gonna go on feeling like that until feeling silly and just you know plodding on, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 42:29

Yeah, yeah. And I think also the further you get away from yourself, the harder it is to come back. And I think that, you know, like you did, Marina, I think that actually, thank God that in your late 30s, you know, you had a baby and you're you were, you know, forced to really make these changes. And I think that that's that's a really good time to do that because the amount of women that I meet that are in their 50s and their 60s, and as I said, have, you know, only got the memo a little bit too late, and not that 50 or 60 or 70. And I started a lady who was 79 on HRT the other day. And you know, not that these these times are too late, but they are in terms of time that you've lost and time that you have spent not feeling yourself.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

And I think um, you know, understanding what you're going through, it makes it so much easier for everybody you're able to express that to everybody else around you. I'm as you said, I get mad at a banana. Well, yeah, I don't put up with that that much shit anymore, actually. And I find myself getting so fucking angry over the smallest thing. And I told my partner the other day, because there was this thing that I saw which was amazing, actually, the woman's brain and how it changes in menopause. I don't Yeah by Lisa Moscone. Yeah, and and so you know, before menopause, it's Like everything's across the logic and the and the and the emotional, and then you've got the man's brain, which is basically it stays in one compartment, one side or the other side. I was like, wow, and then it has to be your primates, that's why. Yeah, I think, yeah. And and and then I'm like, oh well, that makes sense. And then and then as we get older, the menopause hits, it's like the the they start, we become the the lines don't cross so much anymore. So we start becoming more about me. What do I want? How do I fit in this? This is actually something that's biological, right? And so I said to my partner, I'm um, so I'm honestly in my in my moving towards man era. I can be a little bit more selfish about this now. I want to go and do this, bye. And so it it it's almost like a permission slip to go, actually, this is what my body needs. It's biological, it's what's being asked for this, and I'm gonna go and do that. And maybe that's part of it, which is um, you know, if we're still we've been so fucking conditioned to look out for everybody else, everybody else, everybody else, everybody else, everybody else, everybody else. And so it's always out there, out there, out there. What do you want? What do you need? How are you? What are you up to? Uh out there, but it's not coming back to you, back to you, back to you, back to you. It's ultimately it looked to me like our brains changed and says, Come back to you, and and what do you want? And otherwise load. Well, you and I'll make get all your words, well, yeah, and you might get out and ate a K47 and shoot everybody. I mean, I don't know. It's a bit like when I get that way. When I'm so that when I when I get so triggered and get so angry, it's usually because I'm tired. My my body's just going, I think we just need to like take it down a notch. Like, just go and breathe, go and stand in a wood.

SPEAKER_03 45:57

With no people.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

With no people, yeah. Um, Marina, I think I know the answer to this question, but it's a question we ask everybody that comes on the podcast towards the end of their episode. If you could have a chat with a young Marina, an 18-year-old Marina, and give her a few pearls of wisdom, what what would you um what would you tell her?

SPEAKER_01 46:23

Oh, that's quite an emotional question. I think um just just let me sit with that for a second. I've got all the goosebumps going on and I've got quite a lot of emotion coming through my body at the moment. Um let me I'm just like whoa take your time. I think I think I would say to her that um she she has everything that she needs, and the most important piece of this all is to when she feels you know that that that journey that she was on it works out okay in the end, and actually um it it's okay to feel the way that she did, and it's all part of this rich tapestry. Everything that's happened up until this point, um, in in up in my life that was dictated by her a lot of the time has been brought so much wisdom and understanding. Um it's a bit like um the shadows that we don't want to go into are where the gold bleeds out. It it's like the wisdom in the wound. And and and I'm so grateful to her because of her um her teenage rebelness, her feistiness, her her angst, her depth, her um all of the places that she went to, which she went to, um have given me such insight into the breadth and width of what's the richness of of life and and and being human and allows me now to really kind of hold space for women to go through the stuff that they go through. So I'm really grateful to her, actually. So I just really wanted to say thank you.

SPEAKER_02 48:34

Brilliant. Um, that feels like the perfect place to end. Thank you so much for your time today, Marina. It's been fascinating talking to you.

SPEAKER_03 48:43

Yeah, it's been really wonderful, actually. Thank you. Such a pleasure to have you. Thank you so, so much for your time. This episode of Fannying Around is supported by Clearboost, a women's health supplement range I created after years of working in clinic and seeing how confused and overwhelmed women felt by supplements. Each product is designed to support the symptoms that I see most often: hormone changes, low energy, poor sleep, low mood, and stress. Using ingredients chosen for their specific roles in hormone regulation, energy production, and nervous system support. The idea was to replace long random supplement lists with a small number of targeted formulas so women know what they're taking and why. Find out more at clearboost.eu.

SPEAKER_02 49:37

Oh Marina, that was wonderful, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 49:42

Do you know what I really valued, Rosie? I really valued her honesty. And I think that, you know, we're so lucky when we talk to women on this show that I think people are honest, but I wonder if, you know, with Marina, it it felt like such an area of vulnerability to be.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

And just we always ask people before they come on, you know, is there anywhere you don't want to go? Um, and Marina was like, nope, absolutely fine. But I could feel her um reliving some of that past and that trauma, especially from when she was a teenager. And it was really evident at the end of the podcast when when we asked her that question, that that was a really hard, and I I've actually felt quite emotional when she you know, that was a really hard thing for her to do, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 50:37

I think really when I I feel like a lot of Marina's story was about pausing, and I was actually just about to say quite a lot of the time, if you say, What would you tell your future self? I would probably just whittle off some answer. Yeah, yeah. You know, I probably hadn't given much thought to, and I think that it's about pausing, and I I love the fact that Marina did that, she took that pause to really connect with that question, and I felt like that was the theme that ran through everything that she said, is uh it was really a story of of reconnection, of uh, of pausing and of listening to your body. And I I think that that is something that certainly I do not do those things.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

We we rush I don't know about you, but from the moment I wake up, I don't even have children. I rush through life, I rush through the day. And and Bobby was actually taking the Mickey out of me tonight because I sighed and went in the kitchen and said, Oh, I just don't know where the day goes. And he said, You sound like such a mum thing to say, but it's so true. We rush through life, we don't stop to pause, to listen, to appreciate things, our bodies being one of those things, you know.

SPEAKER_03 52:04

Exactly. And I and I think, you know, I really and again I I that's why I like this podcast because I think, you know, personally, you know, as a as a medical professional, I love clear-cut answers. Like I love, I love HRT, I love medicine, I love doctors, I love nurses, I love creating things, and I love, you know, problems that have lovely answers that we can all move on with. And I know that a lot of my practice is also empowering women about, you know, diet, lifestyle, exercise, sleep, all of these wonderful things that are tools. And I think that it was really great to talk to Marina because she had really done a deep dive into those tools.

SPEAKER_02 52:54

Yeah, it's still on that journey completely.

SPEAKER_03 52:56

And and learning the hard way, you know, like doing, you know, every every fad that, you know, autophagy and fasting and whatever else comes up that you think might optimize and you know, inverted commas, optimize your your health and your hormones and whatever else it is. But actually, the moral of the story, I think, is just you know, stopping, listening, and uh sitting, sitting with the truth, you know, sitting with your truth about how your body has changed and how to move forward.

SPEAKER_02 53:28

And everybody's different, and that word sustainability came up, and doing something that feels good, that is right for you, that fits in with that rhythm of your body, you know, that isn't gonna sort of sway you from, you know, a normal routine to something completely out of running 10 miles a morning and eating a Snickers, you know, it it's it's listening to your body and going, yeah, that actually feels right.

SPEAKER_03 53:54

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think for for women it takes time. I think you know, some women's bodies have been shouting at them for years, and and some women are just really in tune to, oh, hang on, my body's changed and something feels uncomfortable. And none of it is right or wrong. But it if anything, I hope that this podcast and and women like Marina are uh, you know, uh listened to and actually encourages just even one person to listen to their body a little bit closer. We've succeeded, haven't we?

SPEAKER_02 54:32

Fannying around was brought to you by Everything Rosie, presented by me, Rosie Frost and Katie Pitt Allen, and sponsored by Clear Boost Supplements and the Women's Health Clinic Europe.