Say More about being free from division and free to disagree

This week we discuss the Fullerton Free sermon from April 26th, 2026

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:23

Well, hello, everybody. Hello. I'm here, your special guest host for the day. Well, I don't know. I'm just in charge of the soundboard today. And I'm really proud of Kyle for not talking while the song was going on. I mean, that is one of his usual. Big day, big day. Anyway, um, Katie Smiley, and I am here with the SAMOR podcast, and we have two very amazing people here with me. And one of them is my buddy Kyle.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

What up, yo?

SPEAKER_03 0:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

What's good, fam? Amazing. Have you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Is that like one of the 2026 things?

SPEAKER_00 1:09

To be friendly to me.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

I prefer to say the ute. Hey, so um, my other special friend that's here is Kristen Johnson. Hey. I have no special hellos.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Work on one right now. Workshop it.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

I think we have enough on our agenda.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

She's like, nope.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

I'm not doing that. We are excited to be here today at our weekly podcast where we discuss the sermon and scripture and ideas that were presented on Sunday. This is from the message on April 26th. I couldn't get that word out. And the title of that message was uh free from division, free to disagree. And the person who gave the message, who is currently not in the room, isn't here to give a recap. So what do we think he said? No, I'm teasing Darren. Darren is out of town this week. So we um we he talked, he gave us a starting point in Romans 14. And in Romans 14, Paul is talking about this idea of disputable matters. And that is um kind of a phrase that isn't one we use in regular conversation. Like at the grocery store, you're not talking about disputable matters, really, are you, Kyle?

SPEAKER_00 2:30

That's how I make friends. I walk up and say, let's discuss what are your disputable matters today.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

I bet you have lots of friends. So many friends. So many friends. And um in that, Paul is encouraging the church um in Rome to consider um their behavior. The examples he uses are regarding food and special holidays, but it's um something that we can easily think about in our own lives. What are some of the the disputable matters of our faith that we kind of can be tempted to really divide fellowship over? And um Darren gave us uh the ideas of how to disagree really without dehumanizing and demonizing, and there was another D Dividing. And dividing over. Um, and how uh he also gave us a few pointers on how to think about conversations with folks, and we'll talk about those as well. But we got a lot of questions, and we've been really talking about them this week. Even yesterday at uh our staff meeting, we did some great discussion on some of the questions that we had sent in. So thank you for participating in this. It's such a great opportunity to really process some of these ideas together and to keep going.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

So, should we dive in? Yeah, and I would just say too, hopefully, like you are also having conversations. Like it's fun for us to get to sit in the room and have them, but like we don't actually get to talk to the person that sent the questions in. But hopefully, whether you sent a question in or just heard the sermon, you are also engaging in real dialogue, not just listening to us dialogue. I love that. Keep talking.

SPEAKER_03 4:12

Yeah, say more.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Yay! And I feel like this message specifically has led to a lot of follow-up in general. With yeah, in my life, with the I loved our staff conversation on it yesterday. Uh, my wife and I talked about this for five hours yesterday. Like we could like it hasn't stopped because we're like, this is a really big deal. And we get that it's a really big deal, and we understand why there's a lot of questions to it because I still have a lot of questions to it.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

So and I feel like some of the conversation, at least that I've been a part of, has been. I think we say that and it can sound like, oh, everyone's got like all these concerns, but like it's been really rich in a like like, oh, the freedom to lean in, and like, you know, Darren talked a lot about unity without uniformity, and like how do we live that out? Like, what does that look like? And that's like exciting, happy conversation, hard, but happy, as opposed to just like, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

Sometimes we say there's a lot of conversation, and people assume they assume the negative or the tense or the ouch kind of conversation. I wasn't implying your conversation with Patty was negative.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

She and I really we argued for hours and hours. We were at a concert and we just yelled at each other the whole time. It was healthy.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah, yeah. We were like, it's a good background music to it.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Excuse me, I wonder, you're disturbing our conversation right now.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

You said, what's good, fam? What's up, fam? What's good? Anywho's, okay, we're gonna get started with one question that's a little more definitional. And I is that a word? Yeah, that was right. Definitional? Sure. It sounded weird. Go with it. Kristen shook her head a little, which means it was not a word.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

I know. I know I know what our roles are in this moment.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

We can sit right firmly in our place. Uh, what is relativism? Is relativism that there's no absolute truth to whereas what was talked about is that there is absolute truth, but there isn't, it isn't always knowable and understandable. What do we think? Is it relative, your answer?

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Uh my answer is that I'm not a philosophy major. But my truly, but my uh brief exploration of it, um, there are many kinds of relativism, but essentially whatever area you're talking about, if you if you are if it is relative, you are saying there is no absolute objective truth in that area. So whether that's talking about morals or talking about epistemology, which is essentially where our conversation would fall with like kind of beliefs of logic and faith and all of that. Um, so yeah, I would I would say kind of looking at Darren's sermon, he was certainly not saying that there is no absolute truth, nor would any of us in the room say that. But we might not always have the ability to fully know and definitively declare that truth because God's ways are higher than ours. So there is a danger in assuming that our ways, our perspective is inherently aligned to God's absolute truth. We have to maintain some humility, but that doesn't mean there is not absolute truth.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

So relativism, it's interesting. I do have a philosophy degree, is what my degree is in.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

I didn't know that. Hold on. Welcome, Kyle.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Um it has always, uh, or at least since like the fifth century BC, it's been a thing, especially in Western philosophy, that has been discussed and debated. And it's always concluded with the same inherent flaw to relativism, which is to say all things are relative is in itself an objective statement. Um to say, like, if all things are not solid, but this is a solid thing that I'm saying. And so it's always a bit of a self-defeating uh viewpoint, which often has been used, uh relativism has been used to land on objectivity. Um and so I think that the best way that I've ever kind of heard it uh explained is that we believe that there is objectivity or real, um, like reality, but that we all as subjects do not see things from that objective perspective. So uh like or interesting, like we as humanity only have the limitations of our viewpoints and our experiences and maybe the things we've taken in or understood or time, but like we're also bound by those sort of things that while that objective, that absolute may or does exist, we don't have full access to it because we are limited by the nature of our limitations. It's the our humanity. Yeah, it's the idea that like we if I were to say like close your eyes and picture a table, like we all picture a different table, but also all of our tables have end deans because you can't imagine a table that keeps going on forever because then it's no longer a table, you know, and like uh the just those sort of like we are yeah, subject to our limitations and our individuality.

SPEAKER_03 9:13

So I think I feel like I know more about that because the two of you defined it. And so thank you. Yes. My this is silly because we've already kind of given all the info we can about relativism, but as we're both talking, I think all three of us, not both, all three of us are talking. I know. Um it's relative who's here. I uh I I am also aware of our current cultural definition of relativism, not because it's as big of a deal necessarily now, but I can remember in high school or college, um, it was becoming sort of a hot topic of conversation that especially in reference to the church, that um, you know, it's like a cultural hot take that says, you know, you can't be one who thinks that there's no absolute truth. And so there it's in my mind anyway, relativism can be associated with like a slippery slope sort of a feel. Yes. And that's the culture that I grew up in in, you know, like in high school in the 90s and the onset of like cable news or whatever. There was just a big hot button flare around that kind of idea. So even like, yes, there's a dictionary definition and a philosophy definition and just your cultural moment, what you might take it, because some people might come from a I think you just said the definition's relative. Kind of. Isn't that crazy? But you might have grown up like in the 70s and you might think of it in a different kind of way because maybe it had a more positive connotation to you. Like, no, it's okay to have different approaches or opinions. So, anyway, I'm just saying that out loud. Totally. And and we're really making it clear, aren't we?

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Well, there's there's like some freedom in acknowledging that we are all limited by our own perspectives. Um, because that means that I can learn more. And uh, and so instead of starting with a well, it's all relative, there's no truth, to be like, oh my gosh, I don't have the full picture yet. Like I there's like a really I don't know, there's I know that at the same time there was like that all that fear of postmodernism was like such that big hot term. And the best way I ever heard that described is like postmodernism essentially was an architectural term at first, and it just means like decentralization. And they used the idea of like LA as like the perfect example of postmodern. Like when you say go to the heart of like LA or the most important place, interesting. There's seven, eight, ten different answers.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

Yeah, there's hubs all over, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

And people hold that as like, no, this is the most important spot. This is and it's just that it in general, as we expanded, as we were able to travel a little bit more, we found different things to be like this is the most important. And I think that there is a degree where in uh this relativism, like we we have seen the different people hold other things to higher value, and that and that does get in complication. And a lot of what this division, this disagreement has come from is people say, no, no, my hub of LA is more important than your hub of LA. And uh that's good.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

Yeah, good clarity.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Just uh keep keep going with it.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Love it. And also, I mean, you know, Darren's not here to say what he was thinking of when he used the term relativism, but it is um it's it's an interesting thing for us to kind of consider and think through. Um, we had a few questions that were in similar themes, so we're not summarizing necessarily. We're going to just sort of go through a few, but this um idea came up a few times. So here's here's a question for us. How do we think about engagement with others along these lines when things are pushed in the following way? Sorry, um I need to cough. On one extreme would be a disagreement about the color of the hymnals. On the other would be, let's say, a disagreement about whether Jesus rose from the dead. As we approach the latter, the more fundamental and deep convictions, particularly where one believes that the spiritual well-being or perhaps even eternal destiny of people who are in error is in question. How are we to employ the principles Darren espoused? I think this is a philosopher. Such good language.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

I sorry, I gendered the author, and that it's not on me. That's not my that's not my call.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Um, can I remind us what his pointers were? Yes, from the message. So Darren had five pointers. He mentioned staying curious, separating the person from the perspective, um, stop stopping performance, uh performing your convictions for your insider audience, letting Jesus be the judge, and what letting the welcome of Jesus be bigger than your opinions. So I think those are what were being referred to in the question as the employing those principles.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

How do we want to do that? Do we want to like go through them?

SPEAKER_03 14:09

Like well, I kind of like the idea of just thinking through some of the the maybe essential core of this question that I see it for now, especially as he as he kind of moves through this idea of like, okay, when we think about the ladder where there's um doctrinal disagreements or theological issues that we come up against on the side of orthodoxy or like what is, what does the Bible say? What can we know for sure? What should we be in a hundred percent agreement on? And then where is it that we need to think more closely about disagreement rather than division? So I mean, I think we got that question a couple times. So um, and I, you know, I I don't know what you guys, if you want to get started, but any ideas there?

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Yeah, I have been uh to be very frank with all of it, this is the hardest that this has ever been to me uh coming into a podcast. Like I have been I was talking about it on staff, and and a lot of it is because I don't know that I'm good at this. Like uh I want to be really good at this, like I desire with all my heart to be great at this. And I also get really, I have a really hard time with some of the things that uh that divisions exist for, uh, both being like that's a really dumb thing to be divisive over, and other things where I'm like, I don't want to be associated with you if that's your viewpoint. And uh, and where I'm like, and I don't know that I'm or I know that I'm not right in the way that I'm doing it. And uh so this has been a big A, I'm just really glad that we talked about it. Um and B, I'm glad that our staff can continue to talk about it. C, I'm glad that our church is talking about it. Like, but it's not easy uh because I think we can all like I went to a concert last night. I said that, and uh I don't like concerts.

SPEAKER_03 16:04

You just keep saying it over and over again.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

They're kind of my least favorite thing. Um, and um my wife loves concerts, okay. And so I'll go with her sometimes because uh if she really wants me to, and we might not agree that a good use of an evening is going to a concert, but we love each other more than concerts, you know, like uh and so it's easy to not get into a uh d uh division from that, you know, but it's hard when it becomes a bigger thing. Um, and as we were talking to the staff yesterday, what are the things that you want to like stand firm on? Uh that is as varied, like what is gray and what is black and white is as varied as there is people in the world. And so this really is difficult. I'm just reiterating his difficulty, and I'm not offering no solution.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

So thanks, Kyle. You're welcome. I mean Frank. It's Frank. He said he was gonna be Frank.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

I finally get to be the person I want to be. Yeah. Frank.

SPEAKER_03 17:01

Thoughts, Kristen. I just put it on the spot.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Well, I there's a little bit more to the question that we didn't read, which was kind of taking what we did read, like employing these principles and thinking about this extreme of hymnal color to uh whether Jesus rose from the dead. Like the part of the question was, does that modulate our curiosity? Does it increase the overlap in the Venn diagram between my opinions and what God says, meaning like I can more confidently say I'm right or not? And I think that's actually helpful to kind of think in those terms because I think there's this like I don't think it mod modulates our curiosity. I think even on things like a difference of opinion on if Jesus raised from the dead or not, um I think I have to maintain curiosity if I'm gonna have any kind of productive conversation. And and yet we might end up dividing, like, because that is a something super important. And I think we're gonna get to this. But like I also think though that I well, I know that I am a lifelong learner, and the more that I learn, the more that I realize those things that I think are worth dividing over get smaller and smaller. Um I I think some of that is humility of knowing I understand less than I thought I did. Uh, and some of that is realizing like I don't we were talking beforehand about like how Jesus defines the gospel is repent, for the kingdom of God is near. That's never how I heard the gospel defined growing up, and yet I know that how I heard it defined might be a strong term, but often referred to things like the four spiritual laws or the Romans Road. Well, those have only been around in the for in that format for decades. And the church has been around for a couple thousand years already. And so there's gotta be this like we have to hold things with some looseness and with some curiosity to just say, okay, could we actually have things we're both saying that we agree on? Or could there be a way to say, yeah, ultimately we do disagree, and does that mean we have to divide? Like, I think we jump to divide so fast, and it I can do the same thing. Like, I mean, what Kyle was saying, like, I can feel that internal tension rising and being like, no, like I know what I think on this and lose my ability to relate to someone because I'm just feeling all the things, yeah. And that's not a good place to have be our deciding factor, I don't think.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

It is and would be an excellent study in person or in a person or in a group of people to look through um what we see in scripture to say um what would we see Jesus dividing over? What are the core tenets of who Yahweh is in the Old Testament? What is it that Paul is saying, like, because he uses that phrase, these are matters of first importance. He uses that in Corinthians. So what are those matters to really um, yes, churches make statements of faith? We have one. This is something that's very common in the evangelical church. So it it is more of a theological statement about the nature of God, the nature of man, the nature of creeds that you're about to. Yeah, there's creeds that help the early church um establish these guardrails and establish boundaries. But um it is even in our creeds, you know, as a young kid, I memorized certain creeds because that was a part of the religious tradition I grew up in. They're not that long, right?

unknown 20:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

And Brian was reminding me, we were talking about this. That I mean, one, the free church's origins are very anti-creedal, yeah, though we have statements of faith and things like that. But creeds were actually written to divide. Creeds were written to set up those guardrails and those boundaries. And that's not a bad thing. I'm not anti-creed, but even in that, that is the exercise of doing theology, right? Those those creeds are not the actual Bible, they are humans good and good-hearted intent to try to bring clarity and and divide out those that don't believe the same thing. And that has a place, but also like it has limits. Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

One of the other questions that we received kind of is very similar to this, but helps us frame the conversation a little bit. And it it was this one of the messages or sorry, one of the messages today was not to judge other believers for their beliefs or to assume that your interpretation is equivocal with God's. The primary goal should be to accept each other. I'm wondering where the line is. Or if there is one between having different perspectives and still living in unity and having irreconcilable differences in belief. Should differing beliefs in the church always be reconcilable? For example, maybe the Westboro Baptist Church or Christian nationalists, does it harm the work of God if those outside the church see Christians accepting even those beliefs that we might believe are in pretty direct contrast with God's word? And that's it. I mean, that's a great extension of what we're talking about right now. Just where we can think about sort of the line on one side that is, okay, so what are our beliefs that we hold to? And then um, where can we be safe? And then the other side of that spectrum is okay, but now these folks say they're safe, but their behavior is in question. How do we put those things together? Where do where's the line there? You guys have thoughts on that? Of course we do.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Of course you do. Like, who does have thoughts on that? Like, I was sharing this uh pre-recording or whatever, but I look back at a year, a year ago, three years ago, seven years, whatever, to pick a time period, and I'm so embarrassed by some of the things that I held so so firmly that this was like of the utmost importance. And I think that's because I've come to really value growth and change and getting better, um and and knowing that I haven't arrived yet. Um that in the any way that I can find solace in those who I believe are doing really horrific acts in the name of Jesus is to be like, I maybe they're still on their journey and like and that's okay. And yes, and I was sharing last night with my wife, I was like, I have such a hard time believing that people can change, and yet the entire thing that I'm doing is working, like spending my life dedicated to the idea that people can change through the power of God, but it's so hard for me to believe sometimes, and uh, and so when I see hate in Jesus' name, or I see destruction or murder or like in the name, it's really hard for me to be like, Great, I don't want to divide with that person because of this, you know, and uh where all I want to do is to disassociate from them, but I just know that people can know God better and can love God and love people like Jesus tells us to.

SPEAKER_03 24:43

Yeah, I mean, and you're saying we've like I can see that in you. I see that you have personally been transformed and changed as you've studied and thought about God and experienced him when other people and all of that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Right. And so I I if I believe that I have or that I can then I have to believe that others can as well. That doesn't mean that I want them to turn into an image of me because like uh that's not good either. Like I know where I'm falling short. And a year from now, I'm gonna be like, gosh, Kyle, you were not there yet, you know, and like and that's okay. You know, like uh you can get so I don't know. It just it gave me a little bit of assurance, uh or a little bit of sleep, I guess. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Yeah, yeah. I two kind of different thoughts. But one, I think specifically thinking like the Westboro aspect of this, I think the question can be taken from two angles, right? Like if I were actually in a conversation with someone from that church, how would I stay curious and seek to get clarity be on what seems to me to be hateful and very different? And that would be one angle. But I think there's also the what maybe this question is more getting at is like the assumption or fear that we're getting lumped in, right? And so I have you know, non-Christian friends that could say, like, but look at that church. And I think it's okay to say, hey, like I I hope and believe, I hope I believe that they are loving Jesus and pursuing him to the best of their ability. It looks different for me to pursue Jesus than from what I see of their outward display of their pursuit of Jesus. Let me tell you about the Jesus I know and the Jesus I'm pursuing. I probably am divided from them, but also like without being in a relationship with them, I don't have a lot of room to fully judge that. Like, I don't think I'm being called to put out a statement on my perception of our differences. Um but also I think some of this conversation about kind of rules or guidelines or whatever, it made me start thinking about um to me, you have rules and guidelines in games. And following Jesus is not a game. So it's a it's a life, it's a relationship. But when and even Jesus, when he's asked to prioritize the law, essentially, he says, love God and love others. And that's really different than rules, because rules leads to kind of a checklist, like you did this or you didn't do that. And Jesus looks at the heart, which is super different and is in full alignment with the Old Testament, of God kind of saying that over and over, of sacrifice and not, you know, looking at the heart, not the sacrifice, looking at David eating the bread and not being judged for it while at the same time. Like I immediately thought of, oh, but Uzza did die when he touched the. So okay, there's there's complications there. But but I was thinking about like games versus relationships. And like when I play a game, I read the rules because I want to win and I want to know the strategy and I want to find every advantage and disadvantage and opportunity. But that's not how I approach relationships. I hope. I mean, relationships are about knowing a person, mutually loving and respecting and enjoying and growing and bonding. And there may be a place for some form of boundaries or rules within a relationship. I'm not saying there's not, but that's on how we give and receive love. It's not on winning. And I then I started thinking about like the emotions or attitudes with rules and games versus relationships, and like I'm very competitive. So I started thinking about like sports and debate. I know it's shocking, but like you've played games with me. Uh the the mindsets that come with that though, or the emotions, like there's so much suspicion and distrust and competition and self-preservation or self-promotion or like superiority or like trying to actually exploit the weakness of someone, or you know, fears of being wrong or losing or being embarrassed, like that, like none of that fits in relationship. The mindsets and attitudes in relationship are like love and joy and delight and peace and security and like relaxation, like mutual benefit. And so I feel like if not saying there aren't guidelines in doctrine and all of that, but if our mindset was one of this is a relationship, my relationship with God, my relationship with this expression of the body of Christ, like if I start feeling those things of competitiveness and suspicion and distrust and like fear of being wrong or embarrassed, like something's off. Like I need to I need to pause and maybe even in a conversation, say like, hey, like I need to come back to this because I'm I'm not in a good I'm heated. I'm a I'm not coming out of this in like, but how do we find a place of security and trust? You know, like I so I think sometimes it's okay to say like, hey, I can't do this right now. Yeah. Like, but also like let's let's do this again at a different time with when we can be in a different mindset or I can be. I can't control your mindset, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

It's um it's so important along the lines of what you're saying that we do have real relationships where we are actually being honest. We talked about this ahead of time too. And so I feel like we could keep going for hours. Um, but it is important that you say the thing you're thinking out loud sometimes, despite the consequences. You have to be loving and gracious, not be malicious or slander other people, but to try to not assume the worst of others and say, in community, in Christian community, here's the thing I'm thinking, and um, and allow the spirit to use other people in the body to help you refine your beliefs over time. What culturally speaking we do right now, not everybody, but of course, but like we we have filtered ourselves into the only people we really say what we mean with are the ones we kind of know are gonna be in our camp. And um that has been destructive to us as a church over time because um then our beliefs don't get the beautiful and God-given discernment of the Holy Spirit together as a as the body, because we um we really don't get the opportunity to bounce that off of someone and say, uh, hey, with my friends that are not, I don't have any friends in the Westboro Baptist community. But if I did, you know, I could say that doesn't seem like it aligns with the heart of Christ when you mock or belittle people in public or, you know, those kinds of things. And if we can't see eye to eye on that, maybe I do need to divide, but I I don't ever have the opportunity to say something too, but I do have the opportunity to sit next to Kyle and sit next to Kristen and sit next to my husband and my children and say, I see where you're coming from, but have you considered this scripture or the Ten Commandments? Or have you considered what Paul says is the old self versus the new self? Does that appear to be really the thing or the behavior or the belief that you ought to be holding right now? And if a person says, like, I disagree with you, well, I mean, we talked about this, but like James says, or is it James? No, um, as much as depends on you. That's in Romans. Be at peace, still Paul. Yes, Romans, it's still Paul, be at peace with all people. And so, like, there it's what depends on me. I mean, which is very little. I can't control what you do. No, so you can't. I mean, try. I mean, I have tried for six months, everybody, but I cannot control that case. Um, anyway, we're getting to be 32 minutes. So, any last thoughts on that before we move on?

SPEAKER_00 32:53

I I think that there's just a really like attractively written question coming up next.

SPEAKER_03 33:00

We don't usually name question askers, but if this question asker per se was married to someone in the room, I would just like to say that when this happened before.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

You got no option. I had no option.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Well, no, I was gonna say I actually preached the message and had my own spouse ask the question. At least this one. You're getting a spousal question that was not based on what you said.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

In fact, I think she was trying to come up with good answers. Well, now you just outed that we're talking about you and you, Katie.

SPEAKER_03 33:30

So, anyway, all of that to say, this is the question. I appreciated the part of Darren's message where he shared his pointers, especially the suggestion to share a meal together for better understanding. I find sometimes when I'm talking to friends, both believers and non-believers, the conversation starts to turn towards a debate. Most of the time, I'm not interested in debating. Can you offer up some good one-liners to steer the debate back to a more chill conversation?

SPEAKER_00 33:56

She's really talking, and how does she stop me when I start to debate me?

SPEAKER_03 34:00

She's like, Are you a debater?

SPEAKER_00 34:01

So I will sit in there at dinner with Kyle and I'll be like, let me tell you. And uh and I just want to shut him down. How do I do that quickly?

SPEAKER_03 34:08

Uh our staff decided yesterday the best thing really to do is just to tell someone, calm down. Calm down, relax. Yeah, a shishing moment is really that is satire. Let's all that is not usually the best. Okay. Um, I do think keeping this is hard because I'm even thinking of situations like in the last six months where I wasn't really able to do this, but taking breaths, remembering who you are, staying centered, remember reminding yourself that this is I have a piece of this, but my like I only have my side of the net in this conversation. So if someone else is getting heated and heated, I can stay calm, I can work this through. Um, I can also apologize if I don't later on. Like I'm only a human being, right? And the other side of that is also understanding that usually people are debating because they feel so strongly about a thing that it feels in some way as like core or essential to their identity. So asking curious questions tends to help them tell you the thing under the thing, which is like, okay, you seem really upset. Do you want to talk about why this is so important to you? Rather than the issue and debating the issue, tell me where this came from.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:30

How did you get to this point? Tell me why this feels so core to who you are and why is it so important to you that I believe it or that I listen or absorb it? You know, that kind of a thing. It's a little more the curiosity is less about the thing you're debating on and more about the person. Where did you, where'd you get this? Like, is this something your parents taught you? Is this something that you learned in church? Did you have some sort of life-changing moment that you see as essential? So I I mean, I know that if you're if you really want to step away from the conversation, that doesn't work. But it does set tend to take it away from the details of the argument and more towards the person you're talking to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

My group yesterday talked a little bit too about like flipping the table a little bit in the way of like, can you make the other side of the case as passionately as you're making this one? Just to try to get someone to maybe wrestle a little bit with like, do I even am I so fired up about this thing, but I don't even actually maybe know what the other side believes? Because I'm not listening. Um, that probably won't work in your marriage, Kyle. But and then this one probably won't work either. But like my natural introverted response is to literally plead the introvert and be like, hey, like I am not a verbal processor. Like I, so can I come back to you with my thoughts later? Um, Katie knows this from firsthand experience. Like the follow-up email is a golden item that, like, hey, like I, but you have to do it. Like, if you if you plead the inner introvert, you have to actually give them some feedback later. But that could maybe be not in a debate format. That could be in writing or in some other format. But sometimes some people like me were not good in a debate because I haven't thought that thought yet. And if I'm listening to you, I can't be thinking too. I need, I need a little more time.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Well, and especially if you're if you're not debating back with them. Like uh I saw the some comedy sketch or whatever a while ago where it was like this lady goes in to return some cheese at a store and she's like, There's a hair on this, and the lady's like, Okay, we'll give you a full refund. And she's like, No, no, I wanted to argue. Like uh, I was I was I was all ramped up to like and so like it had nothing to do with the cheese seller, you know, like uh it was that they had already built this whole thing in their head and they needed to get it out. And so knowing that if I'm someone who starts to get into an argument without the other person arguing back, it's because I've already been arguing this in my head for 30 minutes or for three years, or like, or felt alone or felt isolated or whatever, and like finally someone's there to hear it. Like, I get it. Like I like I I want to love that person because I get where they're coming. Like, like I feel it too.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

But that's really good. Yeah. So there it is. We did it. We have more questions, but we just couldn't answer all of them today.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Yeah, thank you for all the responses y'all. This was this is this was really good for me. I hope we keep talking about it.

SPEAKER_03 38:27

Yeah, I think this topic and this idea of division versus disagreement is important for us to wrestle with. Um, and let's keep doing it together in community.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

One other um thing of just uh no, I just I was really thinking a lot about the um letter to the church in Ephesus in Revelation 2 in context with this of just especially kind of thinking about both loving and remaining in relationship and you got guardrails and rules and just kind of that idea that that church was praised for like having all the right answers, like doing the right things, being vigilant about the right things, but having lost their first love. And so it was just a real kind of conviction to me of just if Jesus is our first love, are we trading pursuing Jesus in fellowship with others for the hard work and perseverance and enduring hardship and hating evil that the Ephesians are praised for? Or are we doing the hard work but also pursuing love? Like, and if we've if we've dropped that love part, Jesus asks for repentance. And so, like, I think we can avoid tolerating wickedness and discern falsehood and all of that and keep loving God and loving others. So maybe something to read this this week for us.

SPEAKER_03 39:41

Yeah. The message there is really beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Look at the bar she drops at the end right there.

SPEAKER_03 39:47

Fear is not a replacement for true discernment. Yeah. So wow, okay. I think we can't do this because I think we have other meetings, but we could probably just turn off this recording and keep talking about it. So we hope you are too doing that in community and um experiencing Jesus together. Here we go. We're gonna say, wait for it. Oh, here we go. It's really not enough.