Say More about Gentleness

This week we discuss questions about the teaching at Fullerton Free Church on May 17, 2026 from a sermon entitled "Free From Aggression, Free to be Gentle." 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 1:00

I feel uncomfortable about the final part where it says let your heart align, which feels like something a cult leader would say. Like, listen, we know you have objections, but just like turn loose of that and just kind of allow your heart to conform to what we're insisting on.

SPEAKER_04 1:15

I appreciate that it said learn a lot and laugh a little.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

That's realistic.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Yeah, okay. I feel like the balance of that isn't quite exactly what happened to you.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

I'd be more realistic if it said laugh a little, learn a little. Learn maybe, maybe speak even. Hi everybody, welcome to the Say More podcast. This is a uh a weekly podcast that uh is run out of the Fullerton Free Church, which is at the corner of Baston Cherry and Brea, if you're looking for the home office. And uh let's see. Every week at this podcast, we we do a uh we respond to questions that are themselves responses to the teaching from Sunday. So for instance, hypothetically, yeah, it's like a response to response. Um it's like that movie Inception, but not like that movie Tenant. I've never heard of either. One goes backwards. I won't I won't spoil it for you. Um this is we're today we're gonna be talking about the teaching from May 17th at Fullerton Free Church, which was uh a message called Free from Aggression and Free to Be Gentle, part of the broader Jesus Frees Us series. I am Darren McWaters, I'm one of the hosts, and this is my last episode. What? Ta-da!

SPEAKER_04 2:25

I didn't even think of it.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Weird, right? It's my last episode, so I was thinking about it, but weird. So there's that. I'm here with Katie Smiley. Hey, and I'm here with Kyle Kirschner.

SPEAKER_04 2:34

Hello!

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Now, it doesn't mean it's my last episode of anything ever. It might be that. It could be. Who knows? Nobody knows. Nobody knows.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

Well, welcome back.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Thanks.

SPEAKER_04 2:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Thanks.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

And um I'm glad you're here.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

The great news for everybody at home, if you're feeling nervous, I'm picturing that family again that's waiting to eat their spaghetti. Uh the great news for that family at home that that relies on the Saymour podcast for entertainment while they have their dinner on Wednesday nights, is that I have uh changed the email address on this over to podcast at Fuller Gym Free. So everything's been handed off. You guys know how to work the AI song generator. You know, it's not it's not a big deal. You know, I'm not necessary in this in this math.

SPEAKER_04 3:20

Um, I want to say thank you to whoever sent us the AI version of the family sitting around looking at the spaghetti on their table. It was cool.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

It was a good It might have been Danny Allen's.

SPEAKER_04 3:29

It might have been it was a great AI image of uh people waiting all night for the podcast to drop. Yeah. I need my say more. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Say more, eat more.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Uh-huh. So new slogans. We can't, we don't want to take too much time today because Katie needs to order a hat.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Oh my heaven.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

She told us before we started that she's got places to be. So it's fine. It's fine.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

If you want to open your laptop and order the hat while we're what I shared was that I was having trouble focusing, and so I just got some hat purchasing hats.

SPEAKER_04 4:06

Hey! Wait, a hat for him to wear or a hat for you to wear?

SPEAKER_00 4:10

So I can be the ultimate fan mom. Oh that's sweet. That's so nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

What will it will it say like like my kid's the best, or will it say what will it say? What kind of hat is it?

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Bad things about your kid. No, I'm teasing. It'll just uh Whoa.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Take that, Jack McWatters Brea. He doesn't even live here. It's just for Brea from Montana.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

It's just for Brea. It'll have like the little, it'll be green and gold, and it'll say like Brea All-Stars, or there's a B on it, or whatever. It's so fun. Yeah, I'm very excited for him. Yay.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Uh, all right. So let's do really quickly two things. I'll give a quick summary of the teaching from Sunday, and then we will confess to our listeners that we got no questions.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

None whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Which can that can be a couple things. We'll talk about why that may be in a second. But first, quick summary. Um, the message from Sunday was basically talking about the fact that um in in Matthew 5, well, it started in Matthew 5 and talked about the fact that when Jesus talks about um not retaliating to other people's violence with violence of your own, or when they ask you for your jacket, give them your shirt as well, or your vice versa. Or um when they slap you, don't let their aggression set the tone for your aggression. At the end of that section, he invites us to not be like the rest of the world who's kind to people who are kind to us, but instead to be like our Heavenly Father, who is kind to everyone, gracious and generous to everyone, let's the sunshine and the rain fall on all people. And then at the end of that, in verse 48 of Matthew 5, he says, Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect. So I began the message even just by saying, like, a lot of times that verse, Matthew 5.48, is kind of taken out of context and used to say, like, oh, we're you're just supposed to be perfect. But in that specific speech, what Jesus was saying is you have the opportunity to put perfection on display by being gentle and kind instead of aggressive in response to other people's violence. So then I kind of went into the idea of non-aggression and and the idea that like Jesus doesn't fight back, he doesn't retaliate, he um that that's just not his approach. The the whole incarnation and his death and resurrection is a picture of the character of God stepping into a volatile situation where he's disliked and hated and people are unkind to him so much so that they would kill him, and yet he doesn't turn that same murderous, you know, power uh back on people. So he is he doesn't re-respond with their same kind of aggression, and he gives us the freedom to not have to retaliate that way as well, to be people of peace. And so that's why when he talks about himself, I I ultimately got into the spot where Jesus describes himself as gentle and lowly, and he invites us to take that same yoke upon ourselves and to find rest, or then the teaching in Galatians that talks about the fruit that the Spirit of God produces in us, which includes gentleness. Now, gentleness isn't the one that people talk about the most, right? Because it can be equated with weakness or it can be, you know, being like steamrolled or whatever. And in our culture, as in ancient Greco-Roman culture, we value aggression more. So we feel like you've got to show your power and you've got to show your strength, and you can't let anybody see your vulnerability. And um, so Jesus, Jesus' teaching and his way of living would have been countercultural then, just like it's countercultural now. We continue to be people who feel like our leaders and our countries and our politicians and whatever all have to be like, you know, aggressive, but Jesus says, no, there's a better way than that. So uh my invitation was just to to follow the way of Jesus and let the Spirit of God produce the fruit of gentleness in us and to recognize that we don't have to respond in kind when other people are aggressive toward us. So that was that was I kind of jumped around in it, but that was sort of the message from Sunday. I did also, as a little asterisk on the side, say that what that people will typically object and say, well, Jesus turned over the tables. So I made the point to say in three years of ministry that's described to us in the gospels, he only did that once, maybe twice, depending on how you synthesize the gospel accounts. So you if if you're gonna say that that justifies violence, then you get one violent opportunity every three years. Um and most of us who drive cars have already burned that.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

So you kind of I think you said even on the way to church, you probably burned that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:39

And you live very close.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

Like that's not a long time. No, and I yeah, but I i I it can be very aggressive between. But I have to go uphill, that's why. I have to accelerate.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Um in the morning, as I'm not gonna name names, but there's parents who drive through our parking lot to get to their school, which is very close by.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Just name them, just name the name.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

A lot of aggression. Yeah. We've had to put up speed bumps to avoid it.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

I saw that they put up a speed bump, but it's only like a half speed bump, and it's very easy to go around.

SPEAKER_04 9:10

It's not hard at all.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

I haven't seen anybody drive over that speed bump since they put it in because of how easy it is to circumnavigate.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Yeah. Well, it was it it was a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Yeah. I'm not sure circumnavigate was the right word. Might be circumvent.

SPEAKER_04 9:26

Yeah, you don't have to go all the way around the world. Yeah, you're right. Marco Polo. It's like Magellan or whatever. Marco Polo.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

He says as a curse. Marco Polo, I got that vocabulary wrong. He says in a pirate voice. Um gentleness. Yes. Sorry. Well, let me just say this. Now you have a summary for the message. We did not get any questions about the message. So let's talk for a second about why that may be. I think it's most likely because the message was so incredibly clear. Yeah. That people were like, Well, that answers that. And they just I mean, that's what I felt.

SPEAKER_04 10:02

I was like, what even can you follow up with?

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Yeah. Like, there's no we don't have any questions.

SPEAKER_04 10:06

That was very like when you're flipping a table, do you think that it's best to start in the middle of the table or like one of the ends? Like, where do you think the easiest flip spot is?

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Well, you want to be careful that you don't hit your own toes when you flip it through because it's likely gonna come down depending. So if you can do if you can actually get backwards rotation on it, like if you can kind of push it under and over. Oh, oh, that's better for you. That's interesting. But it's harder to do.

SPEAKER_04 10:33

Do you feel like a bit blick? Please. Just please.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

We don't have time for your shenanigans, Kyle, because Katie's got hats to buy.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_04 10:46

Oh, Katie, bring a question. I'm excited to do it.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

We did um, well, you asked like uh AI if it had any questions for you, and it came up with a few.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

I put my sermon notes into the AI and I was like, what kinds of things would people ask?

SPEAKER_00 10:59

The AI sounds like the Google.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Yeah. And the AI was like, I don't know that people would ask any questions. This seems perfectly clear.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

That is not true.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Hold on, I can pull up whatever it asks. Hold on.

SPEAKER_04 11:12

I mean, I guess the biggest one as you were reading them through is like, does gentleness work? Like, is this realistic in our society, in our life? Like uh I can see, I can hear, I listen to a message, and I'm like, yay, gentle. Um, but like day-to-day, is it real? Like, should it be? Like, what does this actually look like?

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Yeah, and yeah, the AI also asks, like, is this only possible for Jesus because he's God? You know, like is that is it somehow like an extension of his deity and not actually accomplishable by regular mortals? Uh I to me, I think the that question though, and I would say this to the robot if it was here today, and of course it is, because it's listening all the time. Um, I the question does it work? Like, is it is it a real thing or is it just good theory? I think the answer to that depends on what what it means, does it work? Like, what are you hoping the outcome is? Because if you're saying, well, if you're gentle, then you're gonna get rich. Like, if that's what does this work, well, then no, or you're gonna be in control, or you're gonna be happy all the time. Like, I don't know what your what your goal is. Yeah, does it work? If your goal is any of those things, well, no, it's not it's not gonna do any of those things. But if your goal is to live a life like Jesus, which will include some grief and some sorrow and some loss and some false accusation and some, you know, like violence potentially done against you or whatever, if your goal simply is to live like Jesus, then yes, it works. But if your goal is to live like Jesus for some ulterior motive, like to get some sort of payoff out of it, no, I don't think it does always work. I think there are plenty of people who've been gentle and been stomped on, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

I think that's true. Like releasing the outcomes is a part of a gentle heart, right? Just not having to dictate how things go. Um, you're not in control of how other people react or what they say. And so you're really able to, if you're able to embody gentleness, it part of it, it means that you've released the outcome to to God and given it, given it to him.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Yeah. I think in those moments where I have managed to do this well, I do feel a sense of um internal satisfaction that aligns with the fact that I do actually feel like Jesus' way is the best way.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

So there is a some peace that comes with going, like, well, that was a really weird day, or that was a really hard season, but I did it like I think Jesus would have done it. And that didn't make it easier, but I do feel good about the fact that I never gave up on Jesus' way, you know? And I don't know if that's worth something. That's not gonna be worth something to everybody, but it is worth something to me in those moments where I feel like I've stayed aligned with the with the spirit of Christ in a thing. But I do think like I think religion so often it sort of baits you with outcomes, like you said. It says like if you do X, then Y will happen. And that's why then people I think sometimes walk away from religion because they do X and Y doesn't happen universally or consistently. So if the message on Sunday was like, don't be aggressive, be gentle because you'll have more success, or because you'll be more influential, or you'll like I think people might try that because they'll go like, oh, I want more success or whatever, but then they would find that that isn't that isn't strictly true, right? And then they abandon it. So I think we you have to come at it and go, well, it's not really about whether this works or not, like from a from a personal gain sort of standpoint. It's a question of whether or not it aligns with what Jesus was like, and as Jesus has been revealed to us in the Bible, it does align with what he was like, and so it's valuable and it works because of that alignment, and that's it, kind of.

SPEAKER_04 15:18

But that's like huge because I think that the the temptation is always like, okay, great, a message on gentleness. What are my three like steps to being more gentle this week that that would then we'll make God like me more, or then we'll make whatever like the the question of why, you know, of like what what's my goal in the first place? It it shapes all of all of these like freeze us conversations that we're having, right? Is like the goal isn't that then yeah, you'll be rich, or then you'll be powerful, or then you'll be more influential, or then you'll be the goal is that you see that Jesus is the right way and you follow it, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Right, yeah. Yeah, I I think that's hard for people because they we're just so used to being offered like a treat at the end or like some kind of prize. Yeah. And that's even I mean religion in general can sometimes be framed in terms of like, do these things so that you get to walk on streets of gold or so that you get God's favor or you get your prayers answered or whatever. And then in the practicalities of of living a religious life, when those things don't always work, then you have to be like, Well, I'm not sure I've been I like I I think I've been misled. But when you can step back away from that um that focus on outcomes, like you said, Katie, whether it's controlling other people's opinions or whatever, and instead you can say, No, it is it has value because his way of life and what he modeled, what Jesus modeled to us is better than any other model. You when you follow that, there is value, even though the results are mixed. You know, some people follow Jesus and and they are successful, and sometimes they make money, and sometimes people really like them. But there are other people who follow the way of Jesus and they're deeply disliked, or they don't make any money, or they're you know, whatever. So there isn't a universal outcome other than like it is the best way still.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

So and it I I guess I'm I'm thinking of a few things, but I am thinking about the example we have of um gentleness in historic historical like civil rights activism. Right. I'm thinking about Martin Luther King Jr. And how the outcome was change in the laws, but there was a lot of people who never even saw that outcome because they were willing to do to commit to this way of life and were killed or were hurt or were, you know, uh had really unjust things happen to them, but they're committed to this way of life towards some greater end. And I think like the overarching thing for a Christian is that Jesus is the outcome, but is getting to the place where you can actually come to grips with is that really what I want?

SPEAKER_03 18:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Is that is that outcome what I'm looking for? Or am I actually looking for the favor or the treat or the prize? I mean, he's prize enough.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

And even thinking about civil rights, like he, you know, like the the way that Martin Luther King Jr. did what he did is so commendable and so like that non-aggressive position did make a difference. But we are now living in a time where a lot of those liberties are kind of being uh retracted and withdrawn. So even that was temporary. Like, was that like we I think it remains to be seen whether the work that he did will be lasting, will have created lasting change, or whether it will be a couple steps forward and then we have we'll have a few steps back. And so even that depend it depends on how you look at the outcomes were good and they're move kind of moved the ball down the field a bit, but then it only takes a little bit of time, and then people have the ability to sort of run that ball backwards, you know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 19:14

Well, even like I was just thinking as you were saying that in like the end of Hebrews 11, where it's like that, you know, the all the faith, all the people who uh you know stood for their faith, and then it ends up. Yes, and it ends with like and none of them saw it come to fruition. Like uh it's only like so that it's better through us today with Jesus, you know. Like, and I was like, oh, that's crazy. Like if I was Abraham, you know, like that was what 6,000 years ago or whatever, and I'm like that he didn't get to see the conclusion, and like that's that faithfulness in like that it's just interesting. I don't know. I I I appreciated that like timeline they offer the wrong view, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

The hope trajectory-wise, I mean, even is isn't that also what we believe about the story that God is writing in the course of human history, and he's using human uh human ambassadors to influence that. So maybe even now to back up what I've just said, if we take the long view, even of the work that Martin Luther King Jr. did, like we currently live in a day where some of those liberties are being withdrawn. But if we take the long view, we know the story that Jesus is writing is one of liberation for all people, you know, male, female, Jew, Gentile, slave, free, Greek, Scythian. Like, we know that's the long-term trajectory. So even if we live in a period of time where some of the liberties that were gained in the 50s and 60s in America are kind of walking backwards or regressing, we know Jesus has a bigger story he's telling, and that trajectory won't fail, but it doesn't always happen in your lifetime, and it can be discouraging in your lifetime for even for Abraham and some of those people at times to go like, Man, I'm waiting for this promise to be fulfilled, and I'm and I'm not gonna see it during my life, but I'm gonna be I'm gonna trust that that's the story God's telling.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Um, what else? I mean, I I just want to say thanks to the AI for submitting that question.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Can we talk more about perfection for a minute? Like that word. I was my question as you were preaching was like wondering if um the word, like when he says be perfect and um as I am perfect, I was thinking of where it's like the Bible says to be perfect, where maturity kind of brings you to be perfect and complete and lacking nothing. Like, is that the same route there? Because that feels more like a shalom or like a wholeness of a maturity kind of perfection rather than like a, you know, logistical perfection where you do everything just right. Um, and I don't know if that's the same because I haven't done the work. And you know, here we are. I can't pull up my Bible software and figure it out.

SPEAKER_04 21:57

But apps open, you can't do that.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yeah, too many I have too many hats to buy. Um, I was just thinking, like, is that where Jesus is going with that? Meaning, like, do this. This is the holistic way I want you to be living, and I want your maturity to look like strength under control. Yeah. And, you know, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Well, to me, the whole mission of Jesus, right? I think about I think about John 1 and the idea that like no one has ever seen God, but Jesus has made him known. So, like, what's Jesus doing? Jesus is revealing to us not the whole, not the whole shebang of what God is. Like, we understand God is broader than any of us will comprehend in ever. Yeah. But Jesus is revealing us, revealing God to us in a way that is functionally helpful for us in the way we live and interact with one another. So without knowing what the root word is, and like I'm not I'm not as aware of the language in those two passages to be able to speak to that. But thinking about the mission of Jesus, I do think there is a sense in which what he's trying to do all the time is to go, this is what God is like. As I have revealed it to you, it's very different than what you have read or what you have thought or what your religious leaders have told you or whatever. Uh, your way is not God's way. I'm showing you God's way. Will you reconsider your way and go his way instead? And in that, find the life he built you for. So that perfection or that shalom or that wholeness, I think it's is the same thing in both cases. It's going, there's a way that seems right to you and it's wrecking you, but there's this other way that you were made for, and and it's about alignment with the heart and purpose of God. So look at me and see the way I'm doing it. Take my yoke upon you and find rest and wholeness and you know, like peace, because you're you're all this striving based on what you think you know or what you think you understand, it's actually hurting. It's like the the idea of the one who lives by the sword dies by the sword. I think Jesus is saying, like, all of that aggression that makes so much sense to you, it's actually killing you. So turn loose of that. Like, that's not my way. He says to the soldiers, if I'd if I'd wanted an army, like if that's the kind of person I was, I could have my followers would have taken up swords and spears. That's not who I am. It's not who I've ever been. And it's because he's trying to reveal this other way.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

I mean, Paul tells us to put, you know, to take on the mind of Christ, which he describes as um like-minded, having the same love, being one spirit and one mind. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit and humility, value yours value others above yourselves. I almost said value yourself above others. That's the sorry I flipped that. But yeah, so that's that's the you know, the mind of Christ is uh making himself nothing and taking on the very nature of a servant, which sounds in some ways like gentleness, you know. So it's so important to remind ourselves that if we're supposed to be taking the mind of Christ that that isn't like take on the power and go get what it what is yours. It's dead, it's take on humility in such a way that you are willing to die for other people.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Well, and that passage in Philippians 2 is a great encapsulation of the strength under control idea because it says even though he was God, he did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped at or clung to. So he's it's it's not a question of whether or not he's got power or strength or whatever. He's that's all his. He he turns loose of that intentionally in order to accomplish this goal, right, which is to model humility and sacrifice. So for us, I think when we think of gentleness as weakness, we're you know, we're we're not recognizing that it is they it's that no, there is some strength and power and influence and whatever, but we don't need to cling to that. We don't have to grasp after it, we can turn loose of that, and that's that's that strength under control.

SPEAKER_04 26:02

Well, and it feels like that that the reason why we grasp and try to hold on to it is because we value the recognition from the others around us that we have authority over them. Like, uh, and so if I'm like, oh, I need to be aggressive, so that person knows that I'm in charge right now, I'm being very sassy with my hands. Um I like that. They know, and but that is because I've placed my value on their um like not just respect, but like their viewing of my authority or something. And you're like, oh, that's kind of gross. Like, uh, why do I care about that? And and that really does push you towards like, oh, if if that's not the relevant factor, then and my relevant factor instead is to show them love, like then why would I need them to just be like, oh, you're right, you're in charge.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

Yeah, in order for someone to receive kindness from me, they don't need to know what I do for a living or what my power is or my like none of that's necessary, but we do feel the need so often to posture and declare that stuff to articulate it. And in some ways, the like the constant need to assert our control or our authority or whatever, it actually undermines the real nature of that because people are like, what this what's going on, you know? Right. So yeah, I don't know. What's going on? What's going on? Uh all right. Well, it's been great.

SPEAKER_04 27:29

I know now I'm sad. I oh no. I hadn't considered that this was I was like, oh, maybe we'll we'll get one more. I didn't really thought about it.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

Wow. Sorry, don't be so sad. I'm sad. I'm not dying. Well to you. Maybe I mean, do you know something? I don't know. Is there something you'd like to share? Oh, gently. Um all right. Well, it's been it's been nice while it lasted. I I wasn't thinking of it in terms of my own demise. But now pressing the red goodbye song button feels a little ominous, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Um to land to end on the word ominous.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Uh well. I was trying to make a scary sound, but it sounded more like a monkey sound. I don't know. It kind of sounded like the couch from uh one banana, two bananas.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Veggie tails reference. If it doesn't have a tail, it's not a monkey.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

I don't you guys don't know that remote. I'm not sure that's scientific.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

But you know, here's the thing veggie tails are not meant to be science. That's not what they scientists. Okay. Uh uh thank you very much. Uh, those of you who are listening at home, but we appreciate you, even though you didn't write in any questions this week. Enjoy your dinner. Yeah, enjoy your spaghetti. Yes. Uh, Katie, let's get that hat bot. What do you think? Okay. What'd you say? It has to be flex fit.

SPEAKER_04 28:56

Or the uh are you a snapback or you No, I can't do snapbacks because big enough. Uh big brain. Could you drill an extra hole?

SPEAKER_00 29:06

No. Into the plastic.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

Well, like, yeah, that's the point.