JCIP #371 - Joe Giles

In episode 371 of The Just Checking In Podcast we checked in with Joe Giles.

Joe is an artist and creates, in his words, intuitive abstract paintings rooted in emotional expression rather than planned composition.

We came across Joe through his interview on friend of the pod JD and his platform, ‘What’s On Your Mind?’.

Joe’s life story is not what you’d expect. He was born in Sussex in the South East of England. However, he was raised in a religious cult. 

The cult controlled every aspect of Joe and his family’s life; education, work, and thought. 

He wasn’t allowed to watch TV, radio and never had a holiday. 

His father left the cult when he was just eight years old and from that point was raised by his mother. 

Seven years ago, in August 2019, he was ex-communicated from the cult and was able to escape the cult. However, he has never spoken to his mum or his two sisters ever again. 

Thankfully, he was able to reconnect with his dad, and his brother left one year after Joe in 2020. He now lives in London and can see him occasionally. 

At 29 years old, he was thrust into a world he had no idea how to navigate and had been sheltered from for his whole life up to that point. 

To unpack and heal from the trauma he had gone through with the cult, he tried CBT therapy and other methods but what helped him the most was art and painting.

He took up painting in 2025 after going through several mental health difficulties at the same time. He experienced the loss of a relationship break-up, lost his job and his dream apartment. 

As a result, he had an identity crisis, and painting was his therapy to get through that period and has now become his passion. 

In this episode we chart this journey from cult survivor to artist, reuniting with his father, discovering art, its power to heal and everything in-between. 

As always, #itsokaytovent

You can find out more about Joe's artwork here: https://joe-giles-art.myshopify.com/.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Hi guys, welcome back to another episode of the Just Checking In Podcast. I'm your host, Freddie Cocker, and this podcast is brought to you by Vent, a place where everyone, but especially men and boys, can open up about their mental health issues, break down stigmas, and start conversations. In each episode, I check in with a special guest. We have a NASA and a chat about all things mental health, as well as anything and everything else they are passionate about. If it helps that person with their mental health, we discuss it. My special guest for this episode is Joe Giles. Joe is an artist and creates, in his words, intuitive abstract paintings rooted in emotional expression rather than planned composition. I came across Joe via great friend of the pod, JD, and his platform What's on Your Mind, where he interviewed Joe about his journey, how he discovered his love for painting and art, and a snippet of his own mental health journey. Joe's life story is not what you'd expect. He was born in Sussex in the southeast of England, so far so normal. However, he was raised in a religious cult. The cult controlled every aspect of Joe and his family's life, which included education, work and thought. He wasn't allowed to watch TV, radio, and never had a holiday. His father left the cult when he was just eight years old and from that point was raised by his mother. Seven years ago in August 2019, he was excommunicated from the cult and was able to escape it. However, he has never spoken to his mum or his two sisters ever again. Thankfully, he was able to reconnect with his dad, and his brother left the cult one year after Joe in 2020. He now lives in London and Joe can see him occasionally. At 29 years old, Joe was thrust into a world he had no idea how to navigate and had been sheltered from for his whole life up to that point. In his words, he was discovering the world with a kid's set of eyes and felt like a blank slate, as Stephen Pinker titled his famous 2002 book. Joe then lived in different places around the world, including Morocco, Turkey, before moving back to the UK, living in London, and then Manchester, where he resides today. To unpack and heal from the trauma he had gone through with a cult, he tried CBT therapy, which helped him unpack the brainwashing he had experienced and taught him how to articulate what he had gone through. But what helped him most was art and painting. Joe took up painting in 2025 after going through several mental health difficulties at the same time. He experienced the loss of a relationship breakup with an ex-partner, he lost his job and his dream apartment. As a result, he had an identity crisis, and painting was his therapy to get through that period and has now become his passion. In this episode, we chart this journey from cult survivor to artist, reuniting with his father and brother, discovering art, its power to heal, and everything in between. So this is how my conversation with Joe Giles went. Joe, welcome to the Just Checking In Pod. Thank you very much for letting me check in with you, mate. When I came across your story on JD's What's on Your Mind channel, I was so interested and keen to have you on. JD joked with me that I should basically be paying him commission for the amount of guests that he's given me now, which is great. What I didn't expect off air was your incredible story, brother. So how are you on the Saturday morning, first of all? Yeah, very well. Very well.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Sun's shining. Saturday. England just won their opening game. Life is good.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Thanks for dating this podcast, mate, but we'll see how we go. I don't want to waste any more time than we need to before diving into your journey, mate. So without further delay, are you ready to start the show and talk all about it? Yeah, let's go. Let's do it. Let's start your podcast by talking about your mental health journey first, mate, as there is a mountain to discuss here before we talk all about the incredible work that you do in art. So I ask all my special guests on this topic this question first. Take me back to early life in Sussex, teenage years, and looking back, were there any early mental health experiences, if any? Who's the Joe we meet here?

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Yeah, so um life in Worthing in Sussex was good. It's a good childhood overall, I would say. Yeah, it's a good place to grow up. You've got the sea and the south downs and a lot of beautiful kind of nature around you, which is great. Overall, yeah, teenage years were all right, they were good. There was a kind of a need within myself to fit in. Um, this desperate need to be cool and accepted, you know, and to be one of the tribe, and a kind of a feeling which comes from what we're gonna discuss later, I guess. That feeling of not quite being enough, which was carried on into my early twenties, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Well, you've alluded to it there. Let's start with the thing that has shaped most of your life up to this point, mate, which was your membership that you were born into of a religious cult. Tell me how it shaped your life whilst you were in it, and how it controlled every aspect of your life too.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Yeah, the words you use there, control, is the overarching defining factor of a cult. And yeah, it controlled everything, like literally everything. So you're born into it, nobody joins. You go to a church school, which is just church people. Um, I joined that in year seven, I think, so 12, 13. And then yeah, you go through that, you're just around church people. You go to church every single day, four times on a Sunday. Yeah, and then you kind of leave school, you work for a church business, and then you're expected to go on and get married quite young and have family, you know, and then the cycle repeats, kind of thing. But yeah, they controlled every aspect of your life, so no TV, no radio, no cinema, no holidays. The list of rules is as as long as your arm, ridiculous ones down to like not being allowed to wear coloured socks, for example. Where that comes from in the Bible, I don't know, but yeah, it controlled absolutely everything. And there was a big emphasis on people like confessing their sins, so any very small misdemeanour that you'd done, you were courage to confess it. Because if you die with unconfessed sins, you go to hell forever. So, you know, that was the kind of the teaching. But then the things that you confessed were then kind of stored and then kind of used against you where needed, kind of thing. It's kind of a business cult now. The people who have money, it's a big emphasis on money, it's a very, very rich group of people, and the people that have money kind of rise to the top of the hierarchy within the community, which is a Christian based, supposedly. But you know, the people that are at the top were the wealthy businessmen rather than the people with a close connection to God kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

One of the traits of being in a cult is that you don't think you're in a cult. So when did that ideology or I guess modality of thinking start to crack in any way?

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Yeah, that's very true. Nobody in a cult says they're a cult. And yeah, growing up in it, I didn't think I was in a cult. Obviously, I thought I was one of God's chosen people, and the rest of the world was sinful and evil, you know, and we were very privileged to be in this place. They're getting a lot of backlash in the media at the moment. I'm not gonna say the name of the church for various reasons, but there's a Netflix series called Unchosen, which has become quite popular, and that is based on this group that I was growing up in. But yeah, I was kind of in denial that it was a cult, never thought that. And even when I left, you know, it took me a kind of year after I'd left to kind of even accept okay, no, this is that shit crazy, this is not normal at all. So yeah, it takes a while for that programming to kind of dissipate and get out of your system because that's what you were programmed from birth.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Before we talk about that process and the moment when you left, mate, your dad left the cult when you were just eight years old. So great for him, but you now spend the next 21 years without a father figure. How did that impact your life when you were in the cult at the time?

SPEAKER_01 8:59

It was difficult, and it was difficult because it was unusual. Very few people leave, less than 1%, I think, leave from my calculations. So yeah, eight years old, suddenly, you know, we were a family without a father, which is normal in the wide world. Parents get divorced, you know, people grow up in single parent houses, it's normal. But for me, in the environment we grew up in, growing up without a father was very, very unusual. So that made me feel quite different and kind of less than. And like I alluded to earlier, money is a big factor. Typically, females don't work after they're married. So, although, you know, we were comfortable, we had a normal life, but in the scheme of the church, we were poor, so to speak. So that kind of really affected me, kind of feeling sort of inferior and different, and sort of we were a family that people needed to take care of rather than kind of being self-sufficient. So there's always that, you know, attention from other people that would come in to try and help us as kids, like help with practical things around the house. And then me as the oldest boy was expected to be the kind of the head of the household and the father figure, you know, at the age of 10, 8, 9, 10. You know, so an adult in a kid's shoes, basically. So yeah, there's that kind of lost childhood, so to speak, which I kind of reflect on now. Even within that strict background, my situation was was even more strict because I was supposed to be this kind of adult in a kid's shoes.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

It's interesting then because it sounds like there was a social stigma placed on you, but as you've been speaking about, also a class stigma because of the aspect of money as well. Would that be fair to say? Yeah, very much so.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Yeah, and this sort of feeling of inferiority, which I had growing up, you know, and it was everything, you know, the house we lived in was smaller, my mum had to work, which I kind of hated, you know. None of my friends' mums, none of them had to work. So I really kind of felt that like I was failing in some way because I couldn't provide for the family. When you're 12, that is good. Yeah, looking back on it, it's ridiculous. But that's the kind of the thing that I internalized at the time. Cars we had were kind of not as flashy as everybody else's kind of thing. And there was always a worry. I had this kind of, I was very worried as a teenager that, you know, this was my life. I was gonna never gonna do anything, never gonna become anything kind of thing. Yeah, so it was quite a stressful time. And the kind of the attention we received as being a kind of like special family, so to speak, and having to have this kind of attention which we didn't want or ask for.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Let's talk about the moment when you were in air quotes excommunicated. So it happened seven years ago at time of recording, August 2019. You said there wasn't one big trigger moment for this, but rather an accumulation of so-called rules in air quotes you had supposedly broken in air quotes. Tell me about the build-up to it and how you felt when it actually happened as well.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah, like I say, it was a bit wasn't one big sin that I had done. It was accumulation over a kind of a number of years. So, as I mentioned earlier, everything you do, you confess. And for me, this was like pornography, right? I discovered pornography 15, 16. Pretty normal. Yeah, you're going through, you know, adolescence, puberty, you notice the opposite sex, you know. For me, I'm straight, you notice girls, and but for me, that was like a guilty thing. That was like a sin, you know, this kind of lust. You shouldn't have that. So I would confess to the priests, you know, a couple of middle-aged men, you would have to tell them, you know, all your kind of sordid, your sordid activity, you know, watching pornography, and they would ask you questions like, you know, what was it that you watched? They kind of wanted to know the details, oh, which is ridiculous. And then that kind of evolved into actual people get involved with women kind of thing. And I was, you know, confessing this all the time, and in the end, they were like, Well, you're not changing, you know, fuck off. And I felt terrible. It was awful. I felt like, you know, a real, real sinner. Like I had failed, there was something inherently wrong with me, I was evil. You know, I internalized all the brainwashing, basically. They say, you know, if you don't change, you've got to end up in the gutter, was one of the things. If you leave the church, you'll end up in the gutter. You know, you'll never make anything of yourself. These are not veiled words, these are actual words that they said. You will end up in the gutter, you won't amount to anything.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

I internalized and believed everything that they said. You mentioned earlier that around 1% of cult members ever leave. So when did you feel lucky that you were actually part of that 1%? Because I imagine you weren't at the time that you left, right? No.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

No, at the time I was um excommunicated or kicked out, um, yeah, I felt like a total, like my life is over. This is the end of it all. And the first year was very, very difficult, as it is for quite a few people that leave. But after a while, you know, I started to the first people I connected with were some of the people that I worked with, like non-church members. And suddenly you kind of realize, oh, these people were actually quite normal. You know, they're normal, they're friendly, they're kind. Because that was one of the things that we were taught was that there's no love in the world. Suddenly you meet these people, oh, they're really kind, they want to help me, they want to, you know, hang out with me, want to socialise. So that's when the kind of the veil started to slip. And this appreciation of being kind of lucky to escape kind of accumulates and gets more and more year on year as my life develops and as life gets better and I have more experiences like wow, yeah, I really was lucky. There's so much the world has to offer.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Before we talk about recovery and how you've grown since that moment, you've also not been able to speak to your mum or your two sisters. You've got a brother and a dad who's obviously left the cult, you've not been able to speak to them for over seven years. How do you reflect on that?

SPEAKER_01 15:12

I mean, there's a cost to leaving, but that's the biggest cost that anybody pays is their family and friends. So, yeah, my mum and two sisters, yeah, not spoken to them, not seen them in coming up seven years. Because for them, excommunication is total and absolute. For them, it's like you've died. In the church, they have these uh like photo albums where they have like catalogue so every family has a picture of them and I don't know, it's like the community photo. There'll be no mention of me or my brother or my dad in those. I'll tell you a story about the day I was excommunicated. They'd have to get permission from like the leader who's based in uh Sydney, Australia, before they kick anybody out. And I was at work and got a call from one of the priests to say tonight you're gonna be withdrawn from, as they call it. And like you can't go back home. I was living with my mum because you live with your parents until you get married. My brother had a house, you can live at your brother's house until you sort your shit out. So I was like, Oh shit. The worst thing that could happen has happened. And then I was like, no, fuck it, I'm gonna I'm gonna go back home and get some stuff. And they'd said, We're gonna organise for all of your stuff in your room to be moved, so you don't need to go back home, you don't need to see your mum again. I went back to my mum's house where I'd been living, woken up that morning, went into my bedroom, and it was literally like I had never existed. Everything had been cleared out all the furniture, everything in the cupboards, it was just literally an empty room like I had never even existed. So that was like a really, really hard moment. It's like total rejection from your family. Yeah, you know, my mum was there, my sister was there and was crying, and that was literally the last time I saw them. They had organized for some people to come around to the house, moved all of my stuff, that was it. Photos of me on the wall taken down. I no longer existed in their life.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Wow, mate. That must have been so difficult. I mean, obviously difficult for them, even when in their sort of still cult thinking, but Yeah, it is difficult, and as well to have some sympathy for them.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

There are some podcasts specifically about the church and ex-members. There's one called uh Get a Life podcast, it's quite good. And there's a lot of focus on obviously the experience of us as people that have escaped and left and building our own lives, but there does have to be some sympathy for, you know, my mum, for example, because she's lost two sons as well. You know, even in their world and their beliefs, which you know I've removed myself from. They still believe it, they still lost family members. So there, you know, it does have to be some sympathy there.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

I want to talk about recovery now and how you started this new life at 29 years old. You said to me off air, you were discovering this new world with a kid's set of eyes. A blank slate, like Stephen Pinker says in his famous 2002 book. Just unpack that for me, mate.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Yeah, and it was exactly like that a blank slate, because you've had this conditioning, you've been this good church boy committed to everything. Suddenly you leave, the world is your oyster, so to speak. Nobody knows you, and there's everything to discover. And yeah, so you're kind of having new experiences at the age of 29, 30, you know, first holiday. I was 30, I think. First everything, first cinema, first holiday, first drinking in a pub, first going to a restaurant, first date, literally first date. Wow, you know. But you know, with the kind of maturity of an adult, you are 29. So it was quite interesting. And it was a great experience. Like every week there was something new that you were doing, and there was this ability also, because there's nobody from your previous life, like literally nobody that has come with you, so you couldn't become whoever you want to be, which you know is quite a unique experience. Not many people get to recreate themselves at that age, like totally, with no sort of fear of comeback from your past or your family or your previous conditioning.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

This is a bit of a frivolous question, but you lived without radio, TV, YouTube, phones of all the different generations for your entire life up to that point. So when you were allowed to watch, you know, the iconic films Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, E.T., Jurassic Park, Harry Potter, all of these, this goes on, TV shows, books. How did it feel? Was it like this turbocharged like catch-up of popular culture and meme references?

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Yeah, yeah, it was. One of my fears, one of my fears when I left was a bit of social anxiety. Like, are people gonna think I'm weird? You know, now how am I gonna fit in in the social setting? Yeah, it turns out it's fine. I'm more normal than I gave myself credit for. But popular culture, yeah. I remember the first girl I dated kind of took it on herself to show me the in-betweeners trick, Harry Potter.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Right, here's the basics. Joe, do your homework. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Exactly, exactly. It was amazing, yeah. Like first Harry Potter film we watched, it blew my mind. And I still get those reactions today if I discover something new, and it's like, wow, that's incredible. Like how someone created that from their mind, kind of thing. And growing up as well, another thing we weren't allowed to do was read books, literature, we weren't allowed to read literature, and so yeah, discovering some of the classics. George Orwell's 1984.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

I bet that hit different for you.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

It's like, bloody hell, this could literally be written about this group of people and Animal Farm. Yeah, just expanding your mind. All of these things that we were taught were evil pipelines of filth, and you're reading and it's just expanding your mind, you're sort of going to theatres, seeing all this creative stuff, traveling to see different cultures, and it's just like expanding the mind. You kind of realize that your whole life it's been suppressed. One of the things they used to say, the leader used to say, because they don't want you to think, right? The reason they banned TV, radio of course, is because people might get ideas. One of the things he used to say, direct quote, I do the thinking, you do the doing. That was literally a direct quote from what he used to say. He used to kind of flip-flop and change rules, like he invents a new rule which might seem in total contradiction to something he'd said like a year before. And he would say, if you don't understand it, don't oppose it. He's like, I know, you just do what I say. You know, and we just followed like sheep. So suddenly you have this whole world of of literature or film of music as well. You know, I love music, as we all do, but like just discovering whole New genres of music which I'd never literally never knew existed. Indie rock never knew existed. Reggae, never listened to it. Heavy metal. When you listen to Rage Against the Machine, that must have hit different.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Yeah, Rage Against the Machine. Yeah, Manic Street Preachers, it was like, wow. Yeah. Yeah, it's quite a good experience. But I'm still discovering music now.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Different genres. It's it's amazing. We're speaking about pop culture references here. If you haven't watched the Simpsons episode about the movementarians when Homer joins a cult, please go watch him, mate. I haven't, no, I will check it out. I've often said on this podcast, mate, that when I came out of my victim mentality after seven or eight years of very, very intense therapy, it felt like suddenly the proverbial wool had been lifted off my eyes and I could see the world in full technicolor. I could fully own who I was, what I went through. Do you share any commonalities with that, mate, once you left?

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, going through like traditional therapy has helped a lot from that perspective. I mean, I don't know your story, but you teach yourself stories about yourself and you believe these stories about yourself, and you have a paradigm about the world, right? How the world is, how the world operates from everything you've been taught and your own experiences. But when that kind of lifts or breaks or disappears, it opens up a whole new vista. And then you can see actually, you know, the mental health problems I've had, this kind of like self, I don't want to say self-hatred, but kind of self-depreciating, lack-loathing, yeah, yeah. Self-loathing, inferiority. You know, I'm not really to blame for that, really. I'm a kind of a victim of circumstances. So from there you can start to have a bit more self-compassion, a bit more self self-love. There's nothing wrong with you.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

You're normal. In the cult, you were taught that everyone was the same, but not from an equality perspective, but from this sort of religious communistic perspective, basically. How did therapy allow you to accept yourself as an individual, embrace who you are, and coming back to what we said earlier, prove yourself right that you were enough?

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Yeah, really good question. Because yeah, growing up, like you say, was very communistic. There's leaders and followers, we are followers, we just do what you say you're gonna do. And there's no form of expression, self-expression or creativity at all. There's set paths in life. Everybody follows the same path, you know, and for men, it's a career and business. That's the only path that is available to you. So for me, like wanting to do different things and experience different things and create things was like not normal, and this kind of, you know, like I mentioned earlier, growing up, having this attraction to the opposite sex, and that was evil and wrong. But going through therapy and learning all of that kind of taught me that, yeah, I am right, I have something to offer. I have something to offer to the world, people resonate with that, people kind of like what I have to offer. And I always had this kind of deep, deep belief inside me that there was another life out there. And so this therapy and deconstructing the stories from the past has enabled me to realise that, yeah, I was right. Here I am. Here I am, six, seven years on, I'm not living in the gutter, I'm not addicted to drugs. Yeah, fuck them.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

I've called this next fun section appropriately Mr. Worldwide, after the music icon, that is Pitbull. I'm assuming that you've listened to Pitbull. You took this whole new mantra of embracing who you are, wanting to see new things, try new things to its logical conclusion, which is living in different cities across the world. So you lived in London for a time with the next partner, but I want to focus on the year you spent in Morocco. At the time of recording, they've just played Scotland. You lived in Marrakesh. Tell me about this period, mate.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Yeah, it was awesome. It was absolutely awesome. Great place. I don't know if you've ever been, but great, great city. It's hot all year round. I went there on holiday with my brother, met a girl, fell in love with her, moved there. And that was one of the beauties of having no baggage, having no ties. You could do whatever you want. So I moved there for a year, kind of very spontaneously. About 14 months, I think I was there. But a great, great city, and it really gave me this opportunity to kind of reset. Like nobody knew who I was, nobody cared about my background. There's a lot of people there in Marrakesh who were kind of trying to escape society a little bit. There's a lot of French people, quite a lot of Australians randomly.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Australians get everywhere, mate.

unknown 26:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

You could go to Tim Buck too and you'd find some Aussies, mate.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Yeah. Really random. But yeah, people that kind of wanted to escape. Everyone had a past, but no one cared. Everyone was just there to live their own lives, have a good time. And what I liked about it was these other expats, a lot of them kind of older people, like an old older French people, living there, doing whatever they wanted. No one cared. And I kind of really got connected to that. You know, they just kind of like just dissipated with traditional life and just moved to Morocco. But it was great, yeah. I really, really enjoyed it. And it gave my mind this kind of extra. I think anybody who's lived abroad can relate this extra kind of perception of what the world can be. Like things we were taught, aside from my cult upbringing, but just general societal rules, how the world operates in the West, you know, everything was totally different then. You had this society which was functioning amazingly. They'd interpreted societies just in a totally different way. Yeah, it was awesome. Waking up every morning and I'm living in Africa, it was incredible. Really, really good time.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Marrakesh is famous for its markets or suks, as they are known in Arabic, which have formed the heartbeat of the city for over 800 years. So if you're a tourist, they might be more infamous than famous. You were a white English ginger man. So when you walk through uh Jama'a al-Fanah, how long did it take them to realize you weren't a walking mark for them to fleece?

SPEAKER_01 28:03

I never managed to nail negotiations. Yeah, there was a time, obviously, the main central square, Jam FL, is very, very touristy. Everybody goes there and everybody gets fleeced. Yeah, and there's negotiations because there's no price on anything, right? It's just a haggle. The girl I was dating at the time, I remember trying to buy a wallet, and one of my friends had come to visit, and they started off at like 1,500 dirhams. He got it down to like 800 and he was really in chaff with himself. And then this girl, you know, my girlfriend at the time went and brought the same one for 200 because she's a local.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

They saw him coming.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Yeah, yeah. They're so good at it, and you feel really guilty at like trying to get cheaper. Even outside of the center, obviously, I didn't live in the Dina. I lived in a place called Giles, which is a bit more modern. Yeah, around the apartment, people kind of got to know me and they stopped trying to rip me off and fleece me. And when they did, it was like, bro, I live here, just shut up. I know how this works. I was flying back to England quite a lot for work. You go to try and hail a taxi to get to the airport, and someone will come up to you and say, Oh, like where are you going? I was like, I'm going to the airport. But oh, yeah, no, you come with me. No, these taxis don't go to the airport. Like, you need to come around here and get a special tax. I was like, mate, stop trying to pull a fast one. Like, relax. These taxis go wherever I want them to go, you know. Oh my god, that's I've had a good laugh from that one. Yeah, but it was good, it was really good. I loved it there. I really, really loved it.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

You were also in the city at the same time as the Qatar World Cup in 2022 when Morocco famously made the semi-finals. So, what was that experience like? Because I know from brief experience, having kind of interacted with some Moroccans here in London, Moroccans are a passionate people at the best of times. So that whole two weeks prior must have been absolutely insane.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Very passionate, very patriotic, very, very proud to be Moroccan. I think from I can't remember the build-up to the 22 World Cup, but I don't think there was much expectations on them. No, no, not at all. But when they won their first group game, we watched it in a like an Irish bar. The whole city literally shut down. Like the whole street was just covered wall to wall with people with the red flares, people climbing up on top of buses on lampposts, singing, chanting, all the flags, everything. It was absolutely mental. You know, and it went on all night. It was just like totally and utterly wild. Them seizure bars must have made a lot of money.

unknown 30:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Everyone, they were just like giddy with like, you know, excitement. And that just got more and more and more as they uh progressed through the tournament. But I think the Moroccas were really, really proud. Like the world is seeing who we are. Yeah, and it was sad when they got knocked out. I think they lost to France, I think. From memory, yeah. Yeah, and people were like really, really upset and crying because they really thought they could win it. But it was an incredible experience. Yeah, in the bar, we watched the game in the the same bar each time. And yeah, it was every time they scored, the whole place just went mental. Everyone was dancing on table. It's a bit like English fans, really.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

It was kind of like that, so I felt quite at home. You then lived in Istanbul in Turkey for three months before moving back to England and moved to Manchester, where you live now, mate. We're gonna get to this in a little bit, but did you feel like you had put a few proverbial paint marks on your proverbial blank canvas at that point?

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Great reference.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Yeah, I did. So it's like I did this for a living, mate.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Yeah, I had, yeah. Like you mentioned earlier, when I left, it was a blank canvas. And living in those two places, very, very different environments from anything I'd ever experienced before. Or even knew existed, you know. I hardly knew where Morocco was on a map before that, but yeah, I'd spent time there. But yeah, it was definitely they were like kind of permanent marks now on my character and my personality. I've done something that even quite a lot of people that I know now have never done living in these kind of places. You know, people move abroad to Spain, Dubai, Bali, very few English people. It's just Dubai and Bali now, mate, to be fair. Yeah, yeah, very few English people go to live in Morocco, right? But I'd done that and yeah, I still carry, I would say, some of the experiences that I internalized there to today. Yeah, definitely it's formed who I am now. Very, very glad I did it.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

You mentioned earlier about your brother and your dad. I want to talk now before we reflect about reconnection, right? So you were able to reconnect with your brother and your dad after you left the cult. So your brother left the cult a year after you. Maybe he was influenced by you, who knows? But you're also able to reconnect with your dad 21 years after he left the cult. Take me back to that moment of reconnection and reuniting, mate. And what were your emotions as well?

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Yeah, it was very, very emotional in a way because obviously my dad left at eight. My mum, from memory, never used to slag him off or badmouth him. But the kind of story was that, you know, your dad has lost his way. The kind of expression that they used. So yeah, but no connection with him, didn't know him. I was a boy then, I was a man all these years later. So I was quite nervous. It took me a while to kind of build up the courage to message him. I think it was about a year after I left when I first reached out to him. Yeah, he was living in another part of the country in South Wales. I was still in Sussex at that time. And yeah, I didn't know what it was gonna be like. Obviously, this is my dad, but I didn't know him. What was he gonna be like? Are we gonna connect? What you know? Yeah, very, very strange and a lot of mixed emotion. This was someone that we had grown up being taught, whatever you do, don't end up like him. And now I have the opportunity to see him. So yeah, we met. He happened to be down in Sussex, and yeah, he got remarried. He's had two children, so a half-brother and a half sister for me. But what amazing, when I first met him, like we looked quite alike, and there wasn't really any awkwardness at all. It was amazing. We just connected and chatted for a long time, met the um brother and sister, which I I knew they existed, but I'd never met them, didn't know their names. Yeah, we just chatted phrases, it was totally kind of natural. And then over the years, as we've kind of got to know him more, don't see him as often as I, you know, would like, because we live in a long way away and life's busy, but yeah, we realised we're actually very, very similar. Yeah, he's not an evil man, he's just a totally normal guy who went through the same experience that I did.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

I imagine when you were in the cult, you were told this narrative about him, right? You might have felt angry at him, maybe even believed certain things about him. And I imagine on his side, how much of an emotional torment and torture it was to have to leave four children to escape a cult. Connecting with him at the age you did, were you able to have more empathy in a way that you perhaps wouldn't have, maybe if you had done it when you were 21, 18, 22, whatever age it was?

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Yeah, I think so. Because obviously I never heard his side of the story. And ironically, when I reconnected with him, I was exactly the same age as when he left. Wow. Maybe well, I think he was 31. I was 30, I think, when I first reconnected with him. So coincidentally, obviously, I was the same age. But for him, yeah, I kind of realised now how big a decision it was for him. Obviously, I left and it and it's just me and my life, but he had to make the decision to leave four children for his own sanity, for his own life. Look, I was kicked out, he made the conscious decision to leave, so the wall had fallen from his eyes. He no longer believed in the teachings of the church, you know, and he was kind of paying lip service to something he didn't believe in. And you realise how much it was for him. Like there were three court cases in family court where he tried to have access to his children. So it's not like he just fucked off, you know, he made this contract sin, but he he really, really tried.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Says a lot about the family court system, mate, to be fair. If he couldn't get his children back from a cult, but there you go.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

A lot more sympathy for him now, and a complete understanding, really, of the decision that he had to make. This is not a decision that anybody should have to make. But what are the alternatives? You know, you live the rest of your life miserable.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

You lost your family unit when you left, you've rebuilt it slightly with your dad and your brother now, or they live in separate parts of the country, as you said. Have you tried to connect with them more? Like, do you spend Christmases together? And and also are you more driven to create your own family unit now or not?

SPEAKER_01 37:04

I think, like you mentioned near the beginning, leaving with this kind of like childlike set of eyes, there's there's quite a lot more that I want to do and want to experience before I kind of settle down and have children of my own. But yeah, reconnecting with them, obviously I have, you know, blood run stick in the water, as they say. You know, I'm very, very close to my brother now. He's one year younger, he left a year after me. Growing up, we were not close at all, despite living in the same house. We weren't close, we never shared any feelings for each other. Because you couldn't trust anybody, right? If I told you something, there's the risk that he goes and tells the priests, you know, for my help. So yeah, we never shared it, but now we're quite close, yeah. So that's quite an interesting uh shift.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

Do you think that I don't want to call it trauma bond, but that just experience of having been cult survivors has brought you together in a way that perhaps it wouldn't have previously? Yeah, possibly.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Yeah, I mean, possibly. We mean we both kind of were suddenly exposed to this world at a similar time, and we didn't really have a network of people, so we kind of had each other. Now, when we meet, we will talk about I don't know, any news from the church, people that we used to know and stuff, but we don't really talk much about it. It's more kind of like forward conversations. So I don't know if it's a trauma bond, or I don't know what the definition of a trauma bond is, but you know, we're brothers, so we you know have that natural connection, I'll say.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

I want to reflect now, mate. So, first of all, what has this mental health journey taught you about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 38:41

That's I am more resilient than I ever gave myself credit for.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Very, very popular answer to this podcast, mate.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

You have no idea. And it might sound cliche, but it's true. And you look at the kind of stack of evidence that I've been through, you know, all of this you know, 28, 29 years of brainwashing and conditioning didn't stifle my creativity, didn't stifle my character, didn't stifle who I was. That's a massive, massive bank of evidence that I am self-sufficient and I'm you know more capable than I ever was. But it's taught me that not every moment has to be good and you don't need to feel guilty if you're not feeling great. Because that was another thing we were taught, like, you know, everything has to be positive, positive, positive. It's okay to feel a bit energy depleted. There's nothing wrong with you, there's nothing sinful about that. Um, so that's been a big one to just kind of like ride the emotions. Life is up and down, and that I'm self-sufficient, like I said, like I stepped out into this world with nobody, you know, managed to get a good job, have a good career, had some good experiences, and yeah, like this belief that I had that I was sinful and damaged and evil is not true.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

And as a final question, mate, before we talk about art, if you could go back and talk to the eight-year-old Joe whose dad had just left the cult, the 29-year-old Joe who had just been excommunicated from the cult himself, or the Joe who was living in Marrakesh and the boss man in the market finally knew not to harass him. What would you say to him, knowing what you do now, if anything at all?

SPEAKER_01 40:21

I mean, to all of those versions of myself, I would say, like, don't worry. The things that you fear are gonna happen, like won't happen. Stop catastrophizing. Live and enjoy the moment now, because there will be a time where you'll look back with fondness of that time. So enjoy it, enjoy it now.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Let's talk now, mate, about how you turned pain into purpose with Joe Giles art. You only took it up in 2025, so just a year ago at the time of recording. Tell me how and why you discovered painting and how it's benefited your mental health.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Yeah, so like I say, about one year ago I started painting. I picked it up after quite a lot of loss, like a series of negative events. I was in a relationship with a girl at the time, which was very, very meaningful to me. Um really, really good relationship, everything that I, you know, wanted. And through a lot of like external circumstances, she was foreign with her, she lost her job and hence lost her visa and had to leave the country. I lost that. We were living in a um like my dream apartment at the time, it was like a duplex penthouse in the middle of the city centre. Beautiful, beautiful place. You know, like my I kind of felt like I had made it, and because of the breakout, you know, I had to move out of that because yeah, I couldn't afford it on my own. And I had quite a good job. I was working in for a tech startup in London, got fired from that, all like within a very, very short period of time. So I kind of had this bit of an identity crisis, I would say. Everything that I attributed value to to myself, relationship, the place I lived, my job, my career, just like gone. It was like ground zero again. And so yeah, suddenly I was on my own in Manchester. We had moved to Manchester from London because of her job. So I was kind of here, didn't really know anybody. And when I was in that relationship, she had always kind of appreciated my creative side. So just there one day, kind of on the off chance, I thought, oh, I'll buy some paint and a canvas and just start painting. Um, so yeah, I painted some kind of figurative pieces, and I kind of stood back and like, bloody hell, I made that. Like, I love it, it's really good. I I would buy that. So yeah, I just kind of started to make more and more and more, and I realized that yeah, this is what I love doing.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

And what was it about painting that in the process of it that benefited your mental health, mate, as well?

SPEAKER_01 42:59

I think it's the pace of it and the dynamic, because I create abstract art, there's no right or no wrong. Like there's nobody that can say about my work or anybody's work that that's good and that's bad, and that doesn't exist. And that just the process of creating, you're kind of in your own bubble, you're in your own world. This is you and the paint, and you can express whatever you want, literally, whatever you want. And there's no boxes that you fit in. I'm creating abstract art. If I suddenly today wanted to go and draw something, a landscape, I can do that. There's no one saying you can, I can't do it. Just the process of it, it's like it takes time, obviously. You can't rush a painting, you have to layer by layer, and you kind of have to address things in it that you might not like. So you can work quite quickly, and there's a piece that's like a lot of tension, you don't really like it. But you have to confront that because you can't just leave it there, otherwise the painting will be rubbish. So you kind of have to do that. And other times there'll be kind of a lot of tension in the work, and you'll just keep working, working, working, working, and nothing's happening. So you kind of just have to put it away, leave it, pick it up again a few weeks later, and then something else will evolve. Yeah, there's a lot of life lessons from painting, I would say. Everybody should do it.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

You've just triggered a nice little pop culture reference for me when uh the toy repair man comes to fix Woody in Toy Story 2 and he goes, You can't rush art. And that's literally what you just said, which is great.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

It's true. Just the very nature of it, you can't rush it. Like at the moment, I'm painting with oil paint, which takes like forever to dry. So you have to do this work and you have to, because as part of our kind of DNA in the West is this like, we have to be busy, we have to be doing something. But you know, I'm having an evening of painting by myself, and you're forced to step back from it and then just leave it and then come back to it with a fresh set of eyes in the next day or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Yes, very true quotation. We spoke earlier about your life feeling like this blank canvas or blank slate when you left the cult, right? So was art a kind of natural fit for you? And I'm gonna use another pop culture reference here, you know. Agent Smith says to Neo, I am inevitable. Was art inevitable for you?

SPEAKER_01 45:17

I don't know, I don't know. Maybe. I mean, I've always liked drawing and creativity, but that was never an option for me in the church. Like, like I said earlier, business was the only career that you had. Possibly, yeah. I've always liked creating stuff. Even at school, you know, my English fold was just full of doodles and scribbling stuff. And I remember when I was in year four, which was in a state school at that time, it wasn't the church school. In year four, we had a visit from the mayor, the mayor of Worthing, and we were like painting trees. And I remember the mayor stopped at my painting and said, Oh, I like the colours he's using. Because all of the other kids were just drawing like brown trunk, green leaves. You know, I had like different shades of brown and different shades of green and stuff. So um maybe it was inevitable, I don't know. But I've discovered this, I wasn't kind of looking for it, but I've discovered it, and it's the thing that I kind of resonate the most with, and I feel most myself in it, and I can talk about art very, very easily, you know, my art. Whereas, you know, I've been in a career in sales for like 16 years, same industry. But when I talk about art, it's just like very free-flowing to me. So maybe it wasn't everything. I don't know. We'll never know.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

Well, it sounds like even then your individuality was trying to come out, mate, even if you had forces placing down on it.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

You mentioned the word individuality there, and I think that is quite a key point because individuality is suppressed. But even within that environment I was growing up in, I kind of always liked to be a bit controversial and shock people, say things you shouldn't really say. Sounds like me, but by accident.

unknown 46:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Yeah, I was I was always very interested in kind of doing things that would kind of like create a reaction.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

My great mate and friend of the pod, Dean Corney, said therapy comes in many forms, right? I completely agree with him. And it isn't just traditional sit-down therapy one's one. And we've really got to, I guess, drill this into lads because they might just see the word therapy and think, oh, it's just me sit sitting down with someone staring at them, and they might not feel comfortable doing that, right? Is art your therapy, mate?

SPEAKER_01 47:27

Um, yes, I don't think art's gonna solve all of my problems, but it is definitely a therapy. Like if I've painted in a day, that day is a good day. It's an very much a releasing of emotions. I'm very intuitive with my painting. So, yeah, sometimes it'll be very like violent brush strokes if I'm feeling a bit stressed with a very dark colour. Other times it'll be very light, cheerful, you know, like more sort of delicate brush strokes or with a palette knife or whatever. But I feel it helps me to express things which I can't particularly articulate. I look at some of my abstract work and that kind of says something. Like you see it and you feel something, but I can't really tell you what it is, so it's quite a good way of kind of getting these things out rather than bottling them up. It's a good way to vent, eh, mate? Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

You said to me off air when you paint, you have to let your ego get out of the way. What did you mean by that, mate?

SPEAKER_01 48:27

Um, other painters will understand what I mean. But the way I paint, I don't start with any structure in mind, any preconceived idea, or maybe a little bit of an idea. And I just start by layering down some shapes, whatever's sort of coming to mind. And then after a while, the painting starts to respond to itself. And yeah, abstract artists will know what I mean, but then you kind of just follow where the painting is leading you. And then sometimes you'll think, oh, this looks like whatever, and you want to impose your own ideas onto it, but you kind of have to step back and go, no, no, that doesn't work. Just go with the flow, go with the flow, go with the flow. Let whatever's trying to come out, because my paintings they all kind of have their own personalities. I don't know if anyone has studied this, but I'm sure they have a song or something. Yeah. And sometimes I feel, I guess it's kind of flow state a little bit, but this stuff is just coming out and it's not really coming from me. Yeah, and there'll be a bit that I don't like, but it kind of works with the overall thing. So, like, you just have to get your ego back and just let it go. The other thing with ego as well is I paint for myself. Like when I'm painting, I don't really care about how it's gonna be perceived by other people, by a gallery, by an audience. But it's very, very easy when you're painting. It's oh but wonder what people are gonna think when they view this, or are people gonna like this? So that's when you have to get the ego back and go, no, this is for me. This is for me. Like, fuck everybody else. You know, if people don't like it, I don't care, I like it. It's just harder than it sounds to do because we're so much caught up on what other people think.

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Yeah, Ryan Holliday wrote a very good book about this called Ego is the Enemy. So that's just taking me back to that book for sure. Yeah, I've read it. Our next question is very basic. What has been your favourite painting and why?

SPEAKER_01 50:19

Oh, um, my favourite painting that I've created is a piece, it's called War and Rumours of War. I and I think it's the one that is the most intuitive, very, very colourful, very right. It started, so there's a quite a good backstory to it. Um it started at the beginning of this year, but I mentioned my ex-girlfriend she had to leave the country for this visa problem, and she moved back to where she was from in Caracas. And I woke up to my friend messaging me when the Americans were bombing Caracas and kidnapping the president. Yeah, so so my friend was messaging, like, you know, your ex-girlfriend lived there. So I messaged her and like you okay and everything. And that was on my mind when I was starting this painting, and I literally started with the Venezuelan flag, and then it kind of built up, and I was thinking about this all day because this feeling of kind of like total helplessness. Obviously, you know, we're not together anymore, you know, but I still care about her. She's living there in this very dangerous thing, and they're bombing literally like two kilometres away from her apartment, and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it. Totally out of my control. So I started with a Venezuelan flag, and then there's kind of this big kind of monster appeared, which is for me was like Donald Trump, you know, this big powerful figure that can seemingly do whatever he wants with no impunity. And then these other things appeared, which like a shape for me was like the rest of the world was watching. You know, we don't agree with what's going on, but hey, they've got lots of oil, you know, kind of like grabbing stuff. But then as it goes, obviously I started to think more about this person, and then it suddenly became really, really bright, really colourful, really and this and that kind of masked all of the negativity and darkness which was going on behind it. So that's a painting I'm quite proud of.

SPEAKER_00 52:03

Have you ever experienced creative block? And if so, how do you manage it or overcome it?

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Um, yeah, sometimes. Sometimes, yeah. It's not creative block kind of holistically. I've always got something to do and something to express, but I will get creative block on a particular piece. There's a piece I'm working on now just outside of my studio. I've been working on it for days and like just nothing's happening. And there's always this kind of fear which comes at every point in every painting, is like this is dog shit. I might as well just bin this. Like, what the fuck? Like, you think you're an artist, this is absolute shit. But then you keep working through it, you keep working through it, and then something comes and then it turns beautiful. The other thing as well, if a canvas nothing happens to a canvas, I'll put it aside and I'll pick it up maybe months later and kind of go over it again and it becomes something really beautiful. So there is something in that, I think, for a life lesson, you know, breaking down, picking them up.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

It sounds like your artist block demon is the artist version of Gordon Ramsay. Just chatting with you. Yeah. You're fucking shit. Yeah, that's how I feel sometimes, yeah. We are both people pleasers in recovery, mate, for different reasons in our respective trauma histories. And one of my biggest triggers when it comes to this part of my life, I guess, is someone telling me what I should think and what I should or shouldn't say, especially. Do you share any commonalities with that?

SPEAKER_01 53:34

I think so, yeah. Yeah, people pleasing, like that was pretty much my life. Towing the line, doing what people wanted, trying to be the person that people wanted me to be, playing a role. And for most of my life growing up in this church environment, I kind of had a facade on, I had a persona that I was trying to project. I was never myself, it was 100% people pleasing. But yeah, now, yeah, people telling me what I can and can't do is uh a bit of a trigger. I have a big problem with authority. Um yeah, people pleasing is is a thing, but then and now because growing up as well, sorry to keep going on about it, but we were told how to feel and how not to feel, what to think, what not to think. And I remember sort of telling one of the priests one time, like, oh, you know, I feel this, and they're like, Yeah, you shouldn't feel like that. It's like, yeah, but I do. You know what I mean? Like, like you can't really control how you feel like yeah, but I do. So yeah, I think we probably share some commonalities there. When it comes to art, mate, where do you take inspiration? Um, from everyday life, really. And a lot of things that come from what I'm feeling, things that I'm doing, books I'm reading, films I'm watching. There's one that I'm quite proud of. I like, I did, and I called it Shantaram. There's a big novel called Chanterram about a guy who escaped prison in Australia, ended up in Mumbai in the 80s, lived in the criminal underworld. Incredible, incredible story. And so, yeah, that was kind of on my mind when I'm painting this piece. So I called the piece Chanteram after the book. Things that are going on in my life, things that I see. I'm very, very observant of like shapes and colours in nature, so small, unusual things. I look at graffiti a lot, like what's this person trying to say? All of the above filters into the work. So each piece, you know, it might take a few weeks to complete, is kind of reflective of my mental state during that period.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

We spoke earlier about your favourite piece. So I want to ask you a slightly different question, if possible, here, mate, which is what has been the piece that has captured either your mental health state at the time or has benefited your own mental health by doing it?

SPEAKER_01 55:47

Ooh, what a question. Yeah. Probably the uh I kind of paint in series or phases, and the first kind of series when I started painting the series, we were like figurative heads, which were very disturbing, very dark, very like, what the fuck? So I went through that, and obviously you're kind of constantly evolving as an artist, but then I shifted very directly into abstract art. It's not my best piece of work, but it's the piece that reflected the most, and I was like, wow, this is amazing because it's so reflective of how I feel. And I called it the rebirth of passion. So it's after all that stuff I had spoken about last year, all that had happened and all the kind of financial stress, the loss of everything, being very, very alone. And then I started to kind of do the work, so to speak, getting back into therapy and started to feel quite good. And then I painted this piece which is really explosive, really vibrant, really, really passionate. And then another one that I've done, it was probably my biggest abstract piece, and it reflects people moving out of a fire into a very peaceful thing, and that was titled We Were Fools to Believe. And I'm very proud of that as well, because that's very reflective of what I was thinking about at the time. It's like my journey, and it sort of shows these figures sort of moving towards something bigger and greater.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

We spoke about social class earlier, mate, and your painting titles have these very cool sounding names, you know. The artist scene stereotypically is known for being a bit middle classy, bit upper classy, maybe a bit pretentious. How have you found the Manchester art community? Have you experienced any classism? And if not, how has the community benefited your mental health as well by connecting with others in a way that you weren't able to in the cult?

SPEAKER_01 57:30

Yeah, 100%. I mean, the art world is very interesting because it's the people with money that buy the art, people that create aren't the hippies or the alternative members of society or whatever. But the Manchester art community is amazing. Obviously, I didn't really know anybody in Manchester. So I joined this gallery called Head's Gallery. So I have a piece in there, I have some other pieces in their gallery. And through there, I've met lots and lots of cool creative people and got invites to quite a lot of very, very cool events. I don't experience any classes of myself in the particular creative industry. You know, I go to events organized by Heads, where where I met JD, I love the people. There's the musicians, producers, fashion stylists, photographers, video editors, all these people. I'm fascinated by them. Because like I said before, I was always obsessed with trying to be cool growing up. And now I'm part of this community and they accept me. And these people are cool as fuck. You know, they accept me into their group, and it's like such an honour. Really, really good people. I owe them a lot, really. They were the first people to show my art in a gallery. Through them, I've met other people, you know, uh roundabout way. I've met you through them. Yeah, it's great. I owe them a lot, and sort of being accepted in a group of people that I really resonate and connect with is very, very important for mental health, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 58:52

One more question before you reflect. I ask musicians a lot this question, which is about failures or mistakes that they make in live sets, for example. And you spoke a little bit about it earlier. So when you make a mistake, or what you perceive to be, I should say, a mistake in drawing a piece of art, or even you might view a whole piece of art as a mistake or failure, how do you react to it? How do you learn from it?

SPEAKER_01 59:17

Um, yeah, with painting, it's quite interesting because you will draw something. One of the big things, you've got a piece that's is nearly finished, but you know it needs something else to just finish it off, and you'll come in with something and then you just destroy it. And it's like, you just ruined it. It was so close to being finished, and then you just ruin it, and you're just like, but then at that point, for me, you have to be very, very accepting. Well, it's happened, it's happened. I can't take the paint off. It just has to sit there, so we go again, we go again, we keep going, we keep going. See where we get to next time. And it always does, it always amazes me how it ends up. If you accept it, okay, that was a mistake, I fucked up, we just need to keep going. And I think I've put brought that into my life, I think. And then I'm always amazed at how the painting ends up. I'm as surprised as everybody else at how the piece finishes.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

Let's reflect now on your art journey, mate. So, first of all, what's been your proudest achievement on it so far?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

Um I think the proudest achievement probably a few moments, but being asked to give a talk in front of about probably a hundred other artists about my work was amazing. And, you know, one year into painting and I'm being asked to speak about my process, about my thought process, about my practice, I was very, very proud of that. And people ask me that did you get imposter syndrome if I'm doing that? You know, you'll be in front of these people that have been painting for years and years and years, very, very talented artists. And I was like, no, none of that at all, because I'm quite big into manifestation. I've been here already. You know, this was giving a talk in front of artists and being recognized for my work, having my opinions about art listened to and respected. I've been there already.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

And as a final question before we move on to our mental health chat, mate, similar question as before. What has this art journey and being an artist taught you about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

That I have something to say that people will listen to. That my voice and the way I express it through my work, people resonate with it. I'm not Joe Giles, the little scared kid alone in the world anymore. You know, I have a voice and people will resonate with it. A couple of weeks ago, a guy came to buy one of my pieces. He came into my apartment, I laid them all out. He came to buy one, and he walked away with seven.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:52

And for me, I was like, hey, yeah, you're the boss, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:57

Special price today, special price today. Um but it wasn't about the sale or the money, it was the fact that these pieces, which are 100% unique, come from my head, come from my emotions. People are resonating with them and want to hang them in their houses. For me, that's the biggest compliment that you have a voice that people resonate with.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:19

We've come to our final topic of conversation on this podcast, Joe. I've absolutely loved it. And it's one I have with all of my special guests if we have time. It is a general natter and quick fire chat about our mental health. So, firstly, how was your mental health out of 10? Right now, solid eight. What age were you, mate, when you became self-aware of your mental health for the first time and you realized that the feelings you were having weren't physical and they were actually in your mind? Um, because of everything we've spoken about before, quite late on. So, like 26, 27. Can you tell me about the first or the most important conversation you've ever had with someone about your mental health? So if you can remember, who was it with? What did you say, and how do you look back on it? Did it feel like the big moment and weight had been lifted, or on the other, something quite easy and normal to do? My mind's gone blank, mate.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:06

I can't think of anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

I finally made you speechless. Yeah. You've become the blank slate.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:15

Yeah, that sounds really uh ungrateful because there are conversations I've had with people that have obviously helped. Like I literally, my mind has gone totally blank. No, don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:23

I'll leave this in.

unknown 1:03:23

Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:26

What things do you find in life, mate, that trigger your mental health? So it could be things people say to you, sound, smell, sensation, or have you not figured all of them out yet?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:35

If I think that somebody else thinks I don't know what I'm doing, that is quite triggering. Yeah. A boss. Like, why did you do this? Why did you that? And it feels like a personal attack, but it's not.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:47

It's just a question. That's a big one for me. Conversely, obviously, there has an obvious answer here, but what positive tools do you use to improve your mental health or help you feel better? Which ones have you found that have worked for you? And which ones have you tried but haven't?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

Uh, well, guess what? Art is a big one for me. No! Yeah, for me, I mean I've done traditional therapy. Which is good, really good, really, really helpful. I do a lot of like self-help books, like The Mountain Is You, really good book. Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself by Joe Dispenser, and all of the work in there. It's really good.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:21

But art for me has been the way of processing stuff. Well, you've answered my next question about books, so I'm gonna ask my question after that, which is if there was a mantra in life that summed up your mental health, what would it be and why, mate? Uh a mantra, a mantra.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:36

Um be who you want to be. Simple as that. I think it's a very simple statement, but it's kind of one I live by and don't be ashamed for being who you are. Don't feel you need to fit into any boxes. What do you love about yourself? Uh my resilience, my creativity, my passion for life. I don't take myself too seriously. It takes a lot to stress me out. Pretty chill. Take each day as it comes. You know, I enjoy small moments in life, you know. First sip of a beer, morning sun, going to the gym, living life in the moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

And as a final question, mate, you can answer it any way you want. What more do you think we have to do to ensure men from all backgrounds, all social classes, all walks of life feel comfortable and safe in opening up about their mental health issues or just their general mental health, if most importantly, they want to do it?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:33

I think, I mean, we've come a long way from where we were five, ten years ago, but still there needs to be some de-stigmatization of it. But I think the way I view it, there are still sections of society which would say, you know, you see it online, therapy is for pussies, men need to be big, men need to be strong. But if you follow that to its conclusion, if you have a mental health problem, something you're struggling with, something that's holding you back, if you are the alpha male in control, that's a problem. So you just fix it, you go to therapy, you do the work. There's no shame in it at all. You know, you can still be the alpha male, big, strong, doing your thing, and be working on your mental health. The two can coexist.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

That's my uh two penny thoughts on it anyway. That's a great way to end it, mate. Joe, thank you so much for coming on the Just Checkin' In podcast and talking to me, brother.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:28

Absolute pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:29

Thank you for having me on. Well, that's all we've got time for on this episode of the Just Check In pod. A big thank you to Joe for being my special guest and for letting me check in with him. I'll put some links to where you can find out more about all of Joe's amazing art and follow him on social media in the show notes. As always, thank you to all the vendors who've checked in on this episode. Remember, if you've liked what you've heard, give it a share on social media by tagging us at venthelpuk or one word. Tell your friends, family, or work colleagues about us, write us a review and give us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Consider supporting our Patreon at patreon.com slash venthelpuk or make a one-off donation to our PayPal. Both those links are on our link tree. That's linktr.ee slash vent helpuk. We hope to check in with you again very soon. And remember guys, it is always okay to vent.