Short circuiting giving: Sandy Blackburn

Sandy Blackburn has spent decades asking a simple question: are organisations actually doing what they say they value? As founder of Social Outcomes and Impact Culture Australia, she helps for-purpose organisations build the systems, clarity, and culture to back up their ambitions — and she joins Adam to talk about what that really looks like in practice. From impact reporting to organisational posture, this is a conversation about what funders are looking for, what donors deserve to know, and why simplicity is often the most radical choice.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Morning friends. Adam from Friendship Tree. Back again today for our podcast series. Got a beautiful guest with us today, Sandy Blackburn, amazing human, friend of mine, founder and CEO of Impact Culture Australia. But before we get into it, welcome Sandy. Thank you. And before we hear, Sandy, your passion and how you got to here, can you just tell our beautiful community a little bit about your organization, what it does, and what it's doing right now?

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Well, I actually have two organizations because I'm just a, you know, crazy person. Yes. So twelve years ago or so, I set up social outcomes. And the purpose of social outcomes is to kind of lay down the fundamentals of this impact work. So how you articulate, measure, and report on your impact. Once you've got those down, then you kind of graduate onto Impact Culture Australia, which I started just over a year ago. And that's saying how do you take those fundamentals and embed them into your organizational culture so that your culture is doing the work as well of helping you drive impact, not just these documents that you have. It has to be deeper into the operating architecture of the organization. So they're two sister organizations, four-purpose organizations that I uh run in my not sleeping time.

SPEAKER_05 1:14

In not spare time. In not spare time. Fantastic. And um for our community watching and listening, it's always so interesting to hear what's the spark? How did you arrive here? What has been your motivation over the last decades to do what you do? Can you just take us back to, you know, how it started?

SPEAKER_00 1:34

If you asked my parents, they would tell you I came out this way. Right. It was always this way. And sometimes people ask if either my brother or I are adopted, because we're so different. So my brother is um a CFO, um, you know, he's that way inclined and all very sort of orderly and so on, and very much about commerce and this kind of thing. And I'm this raging social activist. So when I was tiny, like tiny, three, four, difference for me was always rich. And so I was really attracted to all the kids at school who weren't like me. And so it really started then, and I just found everyone who was different or had a different experience or looked different or came from a different place or spoke differently a lot, whatever the difference was, to me that was fascinating and made life richer. So I was always gravitating towards difference. And then as I got a little bit older, I realized that they were punished for that difference institutionally, interpersonally, all of those things. And I went, that's not right, they're the most interesting people out there. So the social justice piece really grew from that kind of base.

SPEAKER_05 2:35

Right. And I guess to reflect a little bit for me, you know, when I was younger and we had this conversation earlier, it I had a real affinity with nature, and I guess as I've got older, um, you know, working out once you have family and you've had friends and you built community and you've had some tragedy, you realise that um, you know, nature and us as humans and community is all linked as one. Yeah. So for me, my drive and my passion has always been based around advocating for people and things that can't necessarily speak on a platform or get their word out for themselves. So for you, um, how how is that how do you weave that in now? Like how how do you take that young Sandy Blackburn and how do you weave that into your organizations?

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Well, that young Sandy Blackburn at what was I, 21, something like that, decided to go off and work in the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa. Wow. And that was in the black community, yeah, you know, for the most part, that was the best education I could have had in terms of social change. Seeing grassroots really organized, really considered, disciplined, thoughtful, meaningful, at scale social system change.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Um, so to be part of that at a grassroots level and learn from everyone else who's more experienced than me set me up for life in terms of how I think about things. And one of those things, I suppose, is this concept of humanity. So the the translation of the word humanity from um all of the African languages in Southern Africa relates to I'm only human through my relationship to you. But in isolation, which is where we largely live in a country, a Western democracy like Australia, we've forgotten that. And so we tend to live in isolation and thinking about our own needs. Um, but really, if we are to be fully human, it is about being in community, but it's also about understanding that your children are my children, your needs are my needs, and there's an interconnectedness between us. And I think that's why it's an affront to our humanity when we see these things happening in the world that dehumanize the black community or in Gaza or in Somalia, um, wherever it might be, Ukraine, where people are dehumanized. Um, it has to be an affront to our humanity. When we see um, you know, people who are struggling with the NDIS, for example, or having NDIS programs removed, and their lives are so much worse, and we've all got friends in that situation, particularly those parents that have children that need support, and that support is diminishing. So, how do we work on the systems that change these things as part of just being human? And so I think it was really that. I couldn't imagine when I came back to Australia because my dad's ill health, um, I couldn't imagine doing work that wasn't about that affirmation of humanity and trying to live in a world that was not just and not an equal playing field. You know, we talk a lot about excellence and someone's excellentness and but there are tailwinds of that excellence. And so the more we can make the world an even playing field, which it currently isn't, the more excellence can arrive from every community, not just the ones who are the most privileged.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Um and even philanthropy, sometimes we just, you know, reward excellence, um, excellence in music, excellence in performance, excellence in the arts, things like that, excellence in academia and medical research. But we need to make sure that we're tapping into the human potential of everyone on the planet to see what excellence actually looks like.

SPEAKER_05 6:08

Yeah, so excellence is is also just the tip of the sword, right? Yes, all the other heavy lifting is done behind that. Yep. Um, so really interested. Um tell us a little bit about what's happening in Australia right now and what change you can see happening as far as social outcomes and impact sort of measurements.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

So I remember about 15 years ago, we started talking about how we need to flip in our sector from thinking about activities and activity-based reporting to thinking about the impact we're having, thinking about the social or environmental outcomes that we're working on. And so that's been a slow boil for about a decade after that.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

And I think in the last three or four years in particular, and especially in the last two years, I've seen this really massive upkick in organizations now starting to better articulate, measure, and report on their impact and also be funded as a result of being really clear around what that is. So it's not just someone saying, I'm passionate about X, which years ago that was a good story, right? But now you're going, okay, I don't really care whether you, the founder, are passionate. Tell me, is what you're doing creating an impact on people who are experiencing disadvantaged? That's what I'm here to fund. So we've seen that shift from it being a little bit about, you know, or all about our activity to our outcomes and what the organization can demonstrate that it's doing. So I think that's a really positive change. And we still need super engaged people in doing that work, but it has to be focused on what changes for the people that they're here to serve. So we've seen that shift from an internal focus almost of me and my organization and what we're doing to what the people we're working with are achieving in their lives and how they're changing and how the systems are being addressed and things like that. It's outside of our organizations, and I think that's the right shift. So that's a really exciting thing to see in the last few years in Australia.

SPEAKER_05 8:00

And simplifying how we talk, how we how we can you explain that a little bit to our community? Because I think from the discussions you and I have had, that sometimes we get caught up in too much information, too much reporting, when we're not getting our message through clearly in a few key areas. So tell us about simplicity.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

So with every swing, so we've swung from activities, we've swung to outcomes. There is a temptation to keep swinging and to go too far in the other direction. So it feels like for a lot of organizations they're saying, oh, we have to map every possible outcome that we could create. And we're ending up with 30, 40, 50 outcomes that we now feel like we have to measure. And I would say that's way too much. We do not have to do that to be able to communicate the impact of what we're doing. So I think a handful of things, like half a dozen things, measure a small amount of things well and don't go outside your sphere of influence, like downstream outcomes. That eventually these things will happen to someone if this thing happens, if this thing's happened. It's too far away from the work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

So if you're going to be able to articulate the impact that your organization is having and what's changing in the lives of people you serve, you have to keep it close to your work. And you don't have to measure every single thing, which I think for organizations is really normalizing. Because there's a number of organizations who would say, I'd like to do impact measurement, but it just feels like too much. We don't have the time, we don't have the money, we don't have the headspace. So I'd be saying pick a couple of things that are really meaningful and measure them and talk about them in your impact report. A handful of things. That's enough. And you've got to be asking yourself, how much information does a funder actually need to make a decision about whether they want to partner with us? And the answer is actually not as much as you'd think. And philanthropy and and you know, corporate investors, they'd say the same thing, that's not actually as much as you think. We don't need to see 50 data points. We're not going to read that whole thing. We've also got time pressures. But uh a short, eloquent, meaningfully written report, impact report, will do the trick. If I've got confidence that the way you're measuring that is um material, like it makes sense, handful of things. That's enough. So I think when we're making this swing away from activity to outcomes, that's great. But let's not keep the pendulum swinging, let's stop at something that's practical, particularly for the size of the organization. So the really huge organizations, they can probably have whole teams that do this kind of work. But for the small and medium-sized organizations, we don't have to over-engineer it. We can keep it nice and simple, nice and articulate. But the way to do it up front is to be very clear about what your impact is. So you don't think about measuring until you've done your theory of change, and your theory of change should be really tight. So spend a bit of time articulating what your impact is and how you get there. And when you've got that clarity, then that will give you the things to measure, those handful of things. But there's a bit of work to do inside the organization for everyone literally to sit down and talk about it with each other.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Not to outsource someone else writing that for you or writing it through AI. Um, that's not the point. The point is to talk to each other about what's the impact we're wanting to have to do.

SPEAKER_05 11:16

Collaborate together as a team and it's about shared meaning. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

We have to find that shared understanding of what it is we're doing and why we're doing it and what we expect to happen as a result. And we're all on the same page around that culturally, it drives more impact being created and less confusion and white noise.

SPEAKER_05 11:32

Yeah. No, it makes a lot of sense. And with the government government uh initiative to increase more double um giving through Australia by 2030, how does social outcomes and impact reporting like weave into the success and you know the ability to achieve that?

SPEAKER_00 11:53

So there are two kinds of reports that an organization does. So one is an annual report, we've always had that. Yeah. And that really highlights what the organization is about. So what's it doing? You know, there's something from the chair, there's something from the um CEO, they talk about the programs, they talk about their reach, there's a financial section, all of that. It kind of gives us the backdrop of the organization. Yeah. What does that look like? Then there's a separate report, and it's important that they are separate, I think. Because the the hero, if you like, of an annual report is the organization. The hero of an impact report is the people you work with. So you're telling their stories, their successes, their breakthroughs, their advocacy, you know, their change work. You're highlighting what they do. And sometimes people are putting the two together or they're really heroing themselves in an impact report. And I think that shows up when you're a donor, is when you're reading it, you're going, who is it about actually? We're not here just to make sure that you your organization lives forever. We're here to make sure that the people who need help are getting it through you. So tell us what's changing for them. So I think it's being clear about those two documents are very different. And if I'm a funder, I'm going to be looking at them with a different lens. One is saying, um, you know, how are you constituted, how you run, how are you governed, how are you managing your finances, how are you managing your people. That's kind of a due diligence. Do I feel like there's the right um systems and processes in place to deliver? And then the other one is what happens as a result of your work. So keeping them related to each other, but two quite separate documents is really helpful from a funder's point of view to have that clarity in how you're communicating with me.

SPEAKER_05 13:32

Yeah. And when um organizations are also um tendering now, obviously that's linked back to a lot of impact and social outcome reporting. Yep. How how are you how are you helping to kind of help companies, I get, meet those thresholds?

SPEAKER_00 13:48

What's interesting is we had an event in Sydney some weeks ago with Philanthropy, and we were launching the Impact Culture Australia tool, so the impact culture assessment tool. Yep. And one of the people in the room said, in the last year to 18 months, we've seen the quality of all the funding proposals that we receive go way up.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Which is fantastic. But it's AI, right? So they're using AI to improve their tender writing, which is fine. But now they all look the same. And so we can't tell them apart, which is really interesting. So my response to that was that's where the impact culture assessment tool comes in.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Because it's about that tool lets you know how embedded that focus that you have on impact is into the systems and processes across 17 different domains in your not-for-profit.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

And so what it gives a funder is saying, is the operating architecture there behind the proposal? So that I know that this organization has got it together in terms of being really focused on impact creation. And this is their ambition. So the funding proposal is the ambition that they have, but you want to know that you've got the mechanism that sits behind it to deliver the ambition.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

So that's why we built and introduced this tool. So for organizations, they can build their capacity because it gives them a plan of how to do that. Yeah. Really simple things that can make a huge difference. Doesn't cost money to do it, just simple stuff, but can make a difference to their ability to deliver impact routinely. Yeah. And so when you've got both of those things together, then a funder can have a lot of confidence that this is the proposal I'm seeing, this is their impact ambition, and I know they're set up structurally to deliver on that because their systems and processes are all aligned towards that impact creation.

SPEAKER_05 15:35

Yeah. And I know obviously we've been chatting with you now for a few months, and um we're really excited to be working with you and getting you to a team day in September to really help us build our internal capacity on all these fronts. So tell me, I know you're up here, you're chatting with some other amazing organizations, and you've done impact reports of some of the beautiful charities that we have on our platform. Yes, yeah. Tell me how that interaction feels and when um and what that kind of embrace of some change and some outcomes. Tell me how that feels when you're working with organizations.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

So for a lot of organizations, they have a sense of what they do, but when you run, we do this one-day workshop that helps them build a theory of change together. So we don't tell them what it is, we just give them a process and we ask a lot of questions with the sort of fresh eyes approach, but it's really them talking to each other to get clarity on their theory of change, so what it is they they do. And we've had these really emotional responses sometimes, whereas at the end of that day, because they've spent the day really carefully focused on what's the problem or the challenge we're here to solve, what are the strategic activities we undertake, if we do those well, what are the outcomes that we can expect in the short, medium, and long term? And if we deliver on those long-term outcomes, will they actually address the challenge that we articulated at the beginning of the day? And that kind of rigor and clarity, people feel like, oh, thank goodness. Like now I feel like I've got a one-page document that really well explains what it is we do here, both for internal and external use. Yeah. So that's probably the first piece. So once organizations have that clarity around what it is they're doing, and they've got it in a document that they can put on their website, they can share with a funder, they can share with a new recruit, that kind of thing that really clearly articulates what it is they're doing, then people feel excited about that in the first instance, that clarity. Um, so it can be communicated in a way that people can understand. And then from there, you start building a measurement framework and ultimately an impact report. And that clarity will flow through if you don't blow it out like we spoke about earlier, if you don't think about 50 things you want to measure, but you measure half a dozen things simply and well, and then those half a dozen things drop into your impact report. The impact report has that same sharpness, yeah, and people get really excited about that.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

So I was telling you earlier that one of the organizations that I work with, we've just about to do their fourth impact report, and I think it was the second one that we did. They gave to a corporate um philanthropic organization that they didn't know. They had no relationship with, they obviously knew who they were, but had no relationship with. And that corporation read the impact report and said, We've never heard of you, but this is so compelling. The work that you're doing is so compelling. The the change that you're creating for the people that you're working with is so compelling. We're just going to fund you.

SPEAKER_05 18:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

And so they still are. Yeah. Um funding.

SPEAKER_05 18:36

And that's because it's clearly defined and easy.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Clearly defined, easy to understand, meaningful, simple. Yeah. Those things. So that's what you're looking for. It's meaningful that it's real impact, it's real change in people's lives, it's real improvements, like significant improvements. But the way it's communicated is easy to understand and digest. And I think in that instance, it was a 13, 14-page document with a lot of visuals. So easy to read, easy for someone who's a funder that's seeing a lot of these to get through and a compelling story. Yeah. So we're looking for that kind of impact reporting. Simple but meaningful.

SPEAKER_05 19:12

Yeah. Yeah. Less but more.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

And what we found is the people that do this work, about being clear on articulating, clear on measuring, and clearly reporting it, money follows. Because funders are responding to that clarity. Yeah. We've seen it again and again and again with organizations we work with.

SPEAKER_05 19:28

Yeah. And with, you know, I guess with the the current landscape and and how we're going about everything here in Australia, is there a couple of things that you think that we're doing not so well and stuff that might be aggravating you a little bit that we need to do better on? Or and is there some things that we're actually doing well?

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Well, there's always things I think we could do better. I'm a bit of an agitator, given my, you know, activist history in South Africa. Um one of the things that's worrying me a little bit at the moment, and I've actually just posted something on LinkedIn about it last week, is that I think again, because people are excited about measurement overdoing it, but also there's conversations in philanthropy saying that we want to have this kind of measurement, this methodology and this approach and so on. And it almost borders on the academic level of quality. And I think these are two separate things. So the academic research that's out there we need, and I use every day in my work because I want to know what the evidence base says about what works well on a particular social issue, what actually creates the impact we're looking for. And then you bring that into your work, you use that as insights for when you're, you know, designing programs and all those kinds of things. So it's absolutely critical, but it's not what we should be asking organizations to do. So the organizations in their annual reporting cycle, you know, the impact reports, should be that simple and meaningful thing, just a handful of things. We don't want randomized control trials, we don't want really complex methodologies that universities use because our organizations aren't built for that. We're built for service delivery, we're built for advocacy, we're built for systems change, we're built for doing that kind of work. We're not an academic institution. So we've got impact reporting, which is simple and meaningful, and then we've got this really rigorous research that the universities are good at and funded for, because we're often not funded for impact reporting. The universities are funded, so they should do that. But I don't want to see government or philanthropy or corporates asking our sector to deliver that level of quality research. Because A, it's not necessary for them to make a decision, and B, we're not set up for it, but there are institutions that are. So these are two separate things, and I think they're getting a bit fuzzy right now, which makes me really nervous for our sector. We cannot sustain that expectation and still do the work to create the impact in the first place. Because impact costs money. Um, and even with you know, impact investing and impact investors saying. Or we'd like, you know, 10, 12% return on our investment. And I say, You're dreaming. Impact costs money. And if you're running a business that has certain overheads and you make it then a social business, you're adding all these overheads on top, you're not going to get double digit returns. Sorry. You're going to get maybe 5%. And if that's not for you, this work is not for you. So there's a whole movement called pay what it takes by philanthropy, but it's also, I think, connected to measurement. We have to be measuring in a reasonable way because we don't have the money for that. So that's part of pay what it takes, I think. We have to think about investing with a pay what it takes framework. That you can't have double-digit returns on most meaningful impact work because it's too costly to run a social business in that way. And every time you give investors more of a return, you're reducing the impact. And there are some unicorns that that's not true, but for the most part, that's how most social businesses operate, including agricultural. I remember having a conversation with a regen, a regenerative agricultural organization, and they were saying the banks will lend us at 6%, but given what we have to do to do regen agriculture, we can probably only afford a 4% return on that investment over many years. And that 2% is the difference between able to regenerate the land and not. And I won't forget that. It's so important that we understand that nuance. And so all of these things, they're all interrelated in terms of how we imagine this work and how what our expectations are around this work. So we need to pull back on a few things, be more understanding about a few other things, so that we can let loose the organizations who are doing fantastic work, do what they're good at and fund them to do it.

SPEAKER_05 23:47

Yeah. And can you also tell me, um, like with you know your vast experience and you know, having all this in your head about people you've spoken to, organizations, also what we all see? Yeah. And and it becomes embedded. What is right now for you within the organizations, the two organizations, what is like a key focus when you talk about single-mindedness and simplifying? What's something that you're really trying to sharpen or hone now to talk to people, or you know, you want to try and make people adapt? What's a focus point?

SPEAKER_00 24:21

So on the social outcome side, we're seeing more and more organizations that have those foundational documents in place, those foundational processes in place. So that's a fantastic place to be. They're not as tight as I would always like. And sometimes we're called in because they're saying, you know, we've got a measurement framework, it's not really working for us. We have a theory of change needs refinement. So there's a bit of that. So we're seeing more of that now than build it from scratch, which is exciting. But for me, the focus is once you have that in place, what do you do next? Because a lot of people say, Well, I'm done now. Got my theory of change, got my measurement um framework in place, we're doing our um beautiful impact report, and we're done. So I'm saying, no, no, that's the starting line. You need those things in place to start the next phase of work. So it's in two parts. We've done part one, but there's a part two. So if you want your organization to be really impactful, you need to do the second part. So that's why Impact Culture exists as an organization, is to help um for-purpose organizations to do this next part. And we don't want it to be onerous, we don't want it to be expensive. So the reason they're in two organizations is because Impact Culture Australia is basically a tech platform where people can self-service.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

So they answer a bunch of questions across these 17 different organizational domains, and whenever they answer no to a question, there's an action that they can take that drops into their tailored development plan. And it's very clear what to do, it's not hard. And so you can just work your way through putting those little actions in place and really shift the culture. And so I wanted an offering that was inexpensive, accessible to organizations of any size, any stage, who are ready to do this tweaking work of organizational culture in a way that's really understandable, that doesn't take a consultant to come in and help you. You can do yourself, but it has a big change on your ability to align impact. So, for example, for a fundraising team, um, so systems and processes are like the body language of an organization. And you'll know from talking to so many people as you do in this podcast, that we pay a lot of attention to body language when we're getting to know someone. So they'll say words, so we're hearing the words, but I think the research is 70% of what we take away is body language. So it's the same in our organizational cultures. The way that we engage with the systems and processes tells us what the organization values and how it values us. Yeah. So I remember working for an organization in South Africa and we're doing some culture change work post-apartheid with the new government, and they were saying we wanted to open our doors and be really welcoming to everyone, not just the white community, but every community in South Africa who we now serve. But we're just finding people aren't engaging, and we're not quite sure why. We'd love them to come to the offices and engage with our staff, and we've got all these things that we can help them with, but no one is here, and we don't know why. So we did a little audit to work out why and spoke to a whole bunch of people. And the reason was they had a system in place that was communicating not open door approach but closed door. Yeah. And that system was how people entered the building. So everything we do is a system or a process, and everything, every system and process has embedded values in it. And the value that they had around the system for entering the building was one of we don't want you here, actually. So they had a security uh company that they had outsourced that entry point to, and they were screening people because that's their job as a security company, right? And so people felt very nervous about entering the building.

SPEAKER_05 27:53

So they're on the back foot before you even come in.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Exactly. You don't even come in because they're sending you away or you feel uncomfortable, so you leave.

SPEAKER_05 27:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

And particularly with all the history in South Africa for um members of the black community, they were like, I don't think so, guys with guns.

unknown 28:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

So what they did, or you know, the suggestion that we gave them is to get rid of the security company. They didn't really need it. And what they needed to do was to put greeters at the uh in the lobby. Yeah. People who were going to help them navigate their way through the systems that they had, find the right person, take them to the right floor, but welcome them, greet them, and navigate the system for them and accompany them to where they needed to be and help them get through whatever process was happening, fundamentally changed everything for that government department. So every system has an embedded value.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

And because it's the body language of the organization, it tells us what's important. Even if the leaders are saying impact is important, but if the systems are telling us that it's not, or it's one of many, many values, things that we value around here, that message becomes confusing.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

So if, for example, in the fundraising team we go after everything, what that says is money drives purpose. Whereas if we only go after the things that are right in line with our impact, as it's stated in our theory of change and everything else, we refer to other organizations. It's important, but it's not for us. Yeah. So we say, Oh, we'd really love you to do this, and we'll partner with you if you get that piece of work, but this is not our core business.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

The underlying value that that communicates to the team is our impact is what's important, and we are going to chase it down. Even if it costs us something, we're going to chase it down, we're super focused. So every single system and process we have tells our team something, tells our clients something, tells our funders something. So if at every turn, at every process that you engage with in an organization, you're getting the message that impact is what matters. And this specific one, let's say you're working in homelessness, um, let's say you're working in homelessness for women who've experienced domestic and family violence, at every point in your organizational experience is going, this is important, this is important, this is important, this is what we're here for. That's all you'll be working on. And the rest of it you can put to the side. But if you've got um, this thing is important and this thing and this thing and this thing and this thing, you kind of don't know where to go and you don't know what to focus your attention on. And the organization becomes less efficient. You as an individual in that organization becomes less efficient. So this second phase of the work is taking the clarity that we've got in this foundational documents in our impact reporting, etc., and putting it, that same clarity, into our organizational culture with little tweaks of all the ways in which people relate to each other and people work together to get work done.

SPEAKER_05 30:39

Posture to me is a big thing. Like the posture of when you look at someone, you look at an organization. Even for Friendship Tree, we look at our internal and external, like how where are our values, how is our posture matching that? And I couldn't agree more about body language. Um and when you meet really genuine people, um, and when you meet genuine organizations, their eyes, the way their hands move, everything matches the words. Where we also see the opposite of that, right? As you said, where we hear the words, but the posture and the gesture and the actual action and outcomes don't match the um, you know, that kind of first layer that you see.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

And sometimes you meet organizations where you pick up pretty quickly it's actually about your brand.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

And you want your brand to succeed, you don't want your clients to succeed. Yeah. It's really about you and your brand. Yeah. Or you want to platform yourself and your career. Like you can just feel it.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

And so inside the organization, people feel it too. And so that your your best performers won't stay because they come to an organization because they want to create impact. And if when they get there, they find it's about brand and legacy and things like that and not about impact, they'll go. So it's about retaining good people, focusing the work of good people and really getting the impact that you want.

SPEAKER_05 31:50

Yeah. For the non-for-profit, we've got um, you know, individual donors and you've got corporates all wanting to be involved in these beautiful um charities and non-for-profit organizations. From a corporate perspective, first, what, you know, you spoke about the impact report, um, how, if that's done correctly, and I guess what corporates and investors in philanthropy are looking at. What's something, what, what's on the on the must-have list for a corporate to look at investing or supporting a non-for-profit?

SPEAKER_00 32:23

So a lot of organizations, funders, are now asking for do you have a theory of change, do you have a measurement framework, and can you submit your impact report? That wasn't happening two, three years ago, three years ago. It wasn't happening. But it's pretty standard fair now. And so what they're basically saying is show us the outputs of your work, show us what happens if we invest in you. So we don't want to just invest in you and feel good. It used to be that, because I was in corporate philanthropy for a long time. Um it used to be that. We want to feel good, our people want to feel good, we want to know we're doing good things, but it's moved on from that. And people are now saying inside corporate, we want to know if our corporate philanthropy is creating an impact. Yeah. We want to know it's meaningful. Um and they also want to be connected to meaning. So there's sometimes there's opportunities to volunteer and things like that. So the currency, more and more, weirdly, in corporate is meaningful things. Yeah. So corporate philanthropy is often the proxy for that. You know, people have busy corporate lives, but they'd like to know that the corporate giving that they're doing through their um team that is responsible for that, um, both as an organization but also as individuals, because they may be giving to that, is doing something that's meaningful.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

So it's not just makes me feel good. We've moved on from that. It's about doing something that's meaningful, which is why they're asking for the proof of meaning. They're asking for the proof of impact.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

So now they're saying, can you show us an impact report? So it doesn't have to be a complicated thing, as we've said, but it can be a short thing, 10 pages, five pages. But something that's meaningful, that gives them confidence and builds trust with the organization that they're going to invest in, that the thing matters and they're able to deliver on the promise of the funding proposal.

SPEAKER_02 34:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

So I think that's what corporates are looking for now because their people are looking for it. People are looking for meaning, their people are looking for something that matters. And even if they can't be involved directly working for an organization, then invest in meaningful things that creates positive change in the world.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

At a time when there's horrible things happening everywhere we look.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Social, on the social side, politically, environmentally, horrible things everywhere. So we want to know if money's being spent, it's being spent on something meaningful. So we don't have time for things that don't work anymore.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

You know, things are the pressure's building. So we need to make sure that our organizations are as impactful as possible.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

So that whatever we are doing creates more impact as we go along. And that for funders, they're investing in things that are impactful. Yeah. So it's on us as a sector to prove it.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

And we can, I'm not saying the sector isn't impactful, we just need to take a little bit of time to demonstrate what that looks like to a funder. And particularly a corporate funder that has potentially thousands of people wanting this who are employees, wanting that meaning. Yeah. It's really important.

SPEAKER_05 35:18

And obviously a lot of those same principles and what what corporates are looking for in their teams and philanthropy. Yep. What migrates over to the individual donor, the everyday donor, the $10, the $50, the $100 per month? What do you see that they're really looking for and what's been missing? And you know, the is it authenticity, is it transparency, is it the impact? Is it A equals B? What what's your position on that?

SPEAKER_00 35:45

So I think for individual donors like the general public, in the past, they've, if you look at the data on that, they've tended to um give their money to brands that they know.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Um, but that's changing. So particularly for younger, uh, younger people, they're looking again for that sense of meaning. And so they want to um make donations to work that is meaningful. And so they're less interested in the brand value. Yeah. Um, so there's a whole bunch of big organizations in our sector that people will say, Well, I know them, so I'm just gonna give money to them. That's how my mother does her giving, is I know that organization. Like I've heard of it.

SPEAKER_05 36:24

Because she knows it's like there's some awareness of them. There's awareness, it's a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

Yeah, so I know them, you know, not picking anyone, but like say the Salvos or the Smith family or you know, whoever it might be, I've heard of them. Yeah, you know, the guide dogs, they're brands that we know and love. So we're saying I can give to them. So that's how my mother, who's 94 and has done that kind of giving all her life, um, Fred Hollow's foundation is one of her favorites. She knows it, you know, it's a brand, she knows it.

SPEAKER_02 36:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

But what we're finding with younger generations is they're saying, talk to me about what you're doing inside that brand. Talk to me about what happens as a result. So it's kind of the same um uh, you know, trend that we're seeing. Young people wanting to be, and by young I mean, you know, anyone up to 40. Oh, it's true for everyone, but it's particularly true for the under 40s, is I want work to be meaningful, I want my giving to be meaningful, I want my time with friends to be meaningful, I want, you know, whatever it is, meaning is feeling more and more important as the world gets a bit madder. And so that's true for public giving. So they're not as attached to the brands as they used to be. They're thinking much more about the cause itself, yeah, and how they feel connected to that and whether the work that's being done is material, whether it is going to make a difference or not.

SPEAKER_05 37:40

Yeah, I've um I've seen that first hand, Sandy. I've got uh two wonderful daughters, 26 and 19. And compared to, I guess, my era where you grew up, um, there wasn't visibility of the smaller, yeah, wonderful organizations that there is now with the, you know, obviously with the online platforms available. Yep. And my two daughters are incredibly giving people, but they have less trust than what we probably did in the early days. They are really looking behind, they want to pull the screen back. Yes. They want to see what's happening, and they're they're going to look, they're going to understand before they give. Yes. Which I think has been a change. Yes. So I guess, you know, amongst so many other things we've tried to take on at Friendship Tree, what we're really trying to do is get behind the scenes of any of the organizations that we are working with and really make sure and ensure that some of that heavy lifting's done for the for the donors and the corporates. Um, to take away that that feeling of you're not quite sure what really happens. Where does my money really go? Yeah. What's the outcome? And I think that's it's a big thing. It's a big thing, and it's really holding back a lot, a lot of um money that can be raised, yeah, that then turns into active impact on the ground. Yeah. And I think that's a really massive thing that um, you know, obviously you're trying to tackle, we're trying to tackle it. And I think we need to spend, you know, more time over the coming years making sure we try and work towards getting that right.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

Yeah, so we can just short circuit that giving. Yeah. And so they can find the information they want really quickly and easily. Yeah. Um, and make that gift um without thinking about it for six months. Yeah. That kind of thing.

SPEAKER_05 39:28

Yeah, especially for the um the smaller, um, you know, for the everyday givers, it's they don't have a team, there's not a lot of time, life's busy, as you said, there's a lot of noise out there, whether it's geopolitical, um, it's local stuff, it's community stuff, there's, you know, there's everywhere we look around, there is quite a bit of trauma. Yeah. Um, so to take away some of that guesswork is really our jobs um to make sure that, you know, people do give and it becomes part of who they are. Um, and I know from my early days, um, my wife and I have given to anything and everything over the years. Um, and it does just become part of in build about what you decide to do. And it does kind of become who we are. Yeah. Um, you know, and we can't all be out on the ground making the change. That's right. We can't be planting the trees and and working in shelters, and but what we can do is understand um what's happening, how we can help, and then action that. And that's that's a big step. And I guess I'm never one to try and rush people through that. I'm really, really trying to hard, you know, to work really hard with our team to try and like as I said, strip away the veil, build community first, build trust, and then you know, the support will come. Yeah. So um, so look, it's been an incredible chat today, Sandy. And I guess um, just for everyone watching, um Sandy and I have been chatting for a while, and we're gonna be working with Sandy to embed everything we've spoken about today and critique what friendship tree have already got internally and externally, um, to make sure that we're better internally, that our partners have the support and we're we're kind of measuring and reporting the impacts as correctly as we can. So it's a really exciting journey. Um so glad to have met you, and um, I'm sure our community really love this chat. And I love getting together and just having a yarn. And you and I could chat all day, I'm sure. There's so many things. Um, but if anyone wants to reach out to you, Sandy, um, where do they go and um what platforms are best?

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Um so the two organizations' uh websites are socialoutcomes.com.au, impactinvestingastralia.com.au. So you can get me through either of those, but I'm also on LinkedIn every week, putting this kind of content out there.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

So the work that I do on Wink LinkedIn is very much capacity building. Yeah. So it's not like, oh, I've been to this event or I did this thing. It's really I'm trying to build the capacity of the sector by putting this kind of content out there on a weekly basis.

SPEAKER_05 41:52

Yeah, fantastic. So for everyone out there in our beautiful community, if you're interested in what um Sandy's had to say today and try and build some some more sort of structure into your organizations, please reach out to Sandy. And if you're after looking for beautiful charities that are platformed together, no matter how large and small, everyone's on a level playing field. Please look at us as well at friendshiptree.com.au. And um I look forward to continuing our friendship, Sandy, and um many more chats over the next few years. And um let's let's do some good stuff together.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_05 42:25

Good on you. See you soon. See you soon. Bye. Bye. Thank you, everyone.