Talia Wolf Explains The Real Reason People Don’t Buy From You (It’s Not Your Product)

Meet Talia Wolf, conversion optimization expert and founder of GetUplift, as she breaks down what actually drives conversions and why most marketing fails to connect.

If you’ve ever struggled with turning views into customers or writing messaging that truly resonates, this episode gives you a clear and practical perspective on what influences real decisions.

Talia shares insights from 17+ years in CRO, explaining why conversions aren’t driven by better tools or more data, but by understanding human psychology. We talk about emotional targeting, why most brands focus too much on features, and how trust has become the most important factor in converting today.

We also explore how these principles apply to content creation, YouTube, and social media, and what creators can do to build stronger connection and drive action.

Talia Wolf is a conversion optimization expert and the founder of GetUplift, helping brands increase conversions through emotional targeting and customer psychology.

Learn more about Talia:
Website:
https://getuplift.co
Book (Undeniably Human Content):
https://taliawolf.com/book
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/taliawolf/

Connect With Us:
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https://vidpros.com
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https://www.instagram.com/vidprosedits
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/vidprosedits
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/vidprosedits

In this episode, we explore how emotional psychology impacts conversions and how creators can improve their messaging, build trust, and create content that actually drives action. Drop a like, share your thoughts in the comments, and let us know what you'd like to see next.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Most marketers think conversions are about data and A B tests. Kalia Woke says that's wrong. In this episode, she explains why emotion is the real driver behind every purchase and how understanding psychology can dramatically increase conversions. It's really nice to have you here today, and thank you so much for saying yes to doing this. I know we're still small, so you gave us a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

I love doing podcasts, and I'm happy to.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

So, Talia, for people discovering your work for the first time, how would you describe what you do today and who you are? Just like introduce yourself, please.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Well, I'm Talia Wolf, like the Animal. Uh, and I run uh GetUplift, which is a conversion optimization agency. And for the past 17 years, I have been doing conversion optimization, which is helping brands optimize their websites and their entire customer journeys to increase conversions. So, whatever you're selling, if you're in B2B or B2C, or if you are e-commerce or a service-based company, we come in, we do an audit on your website, and we tell you what needs fixing, what needs optimizing, and we build a roadmap for that in terms of copy, design, uh, UX, and many other things. And we also do this for like ads, for landing pages, email, and really optimizing everything.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Awesome. But you're also known for conversion optimization with a focus on psychology, right? So, how did you end up specializing in that area?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

I even wrote a book about it, which is uh, oh, here it is. I was just uh looking at it. Um so um I basically started out my whole journey in conversion optimization of just trying different things out and hoping it will increase conversion. So you kind of just like test things, you move elements, you reduce a form field, you change the color of a call to action button, you know, you do all sorts of things hoping that it will drive conversions. Um, and I realized that it was okay, but it wasn't working that well. Um, and what I needed was a real system, an actual uh framework that will help me systematically increase conversions for my clients. Um that's when I went to my Batcave, basically, and started reading a lot about decision making because I understood that a conversion means that someone decided to buy from you. And if I can understand how decisions are made, then I can improve conversions. And my whole research really showed me that people make decisions based on emotions and psychology, and it's the biggest driver that there is in anything when it comes to decision making of any kind of decision. So the entire framework is built on understanding people's emotional drivers, how they're feeling right now, how they want to feel their challenges, their pains, their concerns. Also, basically really mapping the emotional journey that people are on, um, and then using those insights to clearly optimize the website with better copy and design and so on.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Is there any specific example that you can tell me of like a psychology technique that you've used that was like very successful?

SPEAKER_00 3:21

So at the end of the day, it's all about understanding emotions, right? And uh every decision is based on emotions. So I can say that we've identified over 223 different emotional triggers, but it's never just one emotion that's at play. When someone is considering an accounting software, or if they're considering a yoga coach, or if they're considering a course, um, there's always multiple emotions at play. There are two uh clusters of emotions that are very, very prominent in almost every uh project that we do and have been very successful when we optimize for them. So, number one is self-image. Self-image is a group of emotions that are all to do with how people want to feel about themselves after they find a solution. They want to feel smarter, they want to feel more successful, they want to feel like they're better parents, or they want to feel like I don't know, they're just more confident in what they do. And that is all to do with after I hire the solution or this coach or this program or this product, I am going to feel X about myself, something a better version of myself. Um, the other cluster of emotion is of emotions is social image. Social image is all about how I want other people to think about me. So I want other people to see me as the go-to person in the office. I want other people to think that I'm a great mom. Uh whatever the social image is, it's all about when someone comes to the website and they want to buy something, they're hoping that by buying this product or hiring the service, everyone else around them will start thinking about them differently and perceive them in a different way. Um, and those two clusters of emotion are present almost everywhere, whether it's B2B or B2C, every test that we run, we've seen incredible results when we start addressing what people really care about. Uh and when we really start talking about how they feel right now, how they want to feel, uh, and addressing those emotions, and they really do increase conversions all the time.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

But what what what like originally pulled you into this world of CRO and marketing optimization? Because like what I want to understand in a way is when you started your own business, did you already have all of the information that you have now in mind? Or was it something that you were building along the way?

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Oh, I did not have all the information. I was definitely building it as I go. Um, so I was working my original like work and marketing, my first job was in social media marketing. And it was back in the days where tracking wasn't wasn't really a thing, and it was mostly like a Facebook, like, how do I get more likes on Facebook? Um, and I was dry, you know, I was managing big campaigns uh for social media on like Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, it was then Twitter. Um and then I started saying, okay, I really want to help my clients not just get likes on Facebook, but I want to know if I'm selling. Like, okay, we worked for like a huge, huge soap and uh soap company, let's call it. I I can't say the name, but anyway, a very big, uh, very big soap company. Um, and I, you know, I kept asking myself, okay, but great, okay, great. They've got more likes and followers on their Facebook page, but how can I get more people to like buy? Um, so first I went in and I set up Google Analytics for them, like Universal. And then I started looking at the data. And then I was like, okay, maybe we should like move this, try this, change that. And I was just experimenting in things. Uh, my next job was an as like um head of digital marketing at a startup. And then um I went to work at an agency. Uh, my first CRO agency, I co-founded it with two other people called Conversioner. Um, and we did for about five years, that's what we did. We just optimized websites and we built the emotional targeting framework slowly by slowly, one after the, you know, one step at a time. Uh, but it's only when I left that agency, we sold the agency, and I built GetUplift, which is my current agency, where I turned it into a systematic uh framework. So every, you know, every project that we do, and I've been doing this for 17 years now, um, every project that I do is it I feel like I learn more and I adapt the framework more and I add more things to it. Um, but the goal has always been the same. If you understand the emotional drivers of your customers, you can create a better experience for them and increase conversions.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yes. And what were some of the biggest misconceptions you had about marketing early on that you feel like now you wouldn't do that again? You're like, maybe I gave this a try, but maybe this is not the right way to go about it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Um, you know, I think the biggest misconceptions are more around like trying everything, throwing spaghetti at the wall, which I think a lot of companies do because we get super stressed about not getting the results, not, you know, actually getting what we need. And then we start trying every single tool, copying competitors, guessing, you know, trying to read every single blog that promises a 300% conversion uplift if you just add a form or a pop-up. So it's a lot of like these mistakes that everyone does, and it gets you on this hamster wheel where you're trying everything and you're throwing money at tools because it looks like tools and now it's AI, right? But any tool back then and now is like, oh, that's gonna save us, that's gonna make everything better. Um, and I think my biggest lesson has has been for years, like every single week I see this, and it's always uh I always feel like it it makes more sense every week, is that it's about the strategy. And if you have a good strategy, and if you really know your customers well, then the tools just help you scale that strategy. They help you implement the strategy. So misconceptions are more around like trying everything, getting stressed, uh, throwing spaghetti at the wall, talking to people, asking for advice all the time and trying everything when in fact what you need is to stop and go back to basics, go back to the foundation. Who are you speaking to? Who is your customer? And really identifying who they are and what they care about.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Is there a specific moment that you realized that emotional psychology was important? Do you remember this moment that you were like, maybe I need to change and go into this different direction? Because it's a direction that I don't see a lot of people going into. I see people being very much metrics obsessed in this industry, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:41

I'm very I'm very much an odd duck in my in my industry because everyone is very heavy into being data driven. And I'm not saying that data doesn't matter. Of course, we have data analysts on my team, and data matters, um, but people obsess over metrics and numbers and they forget that there's people behind the screens. I guess for me, the the biggest under like the moment that I felt like Eureka was more after we started testing. Because in the beginning, when I was doing experiments and I was trying things, it always felt like guesswork, and I was always feeling stressed about it. But once I had the system, even if we didn't increase conversions, I noticed that we were learning. So we would launch a test, we had like a big hypothesis, we had a problem that we wanted to solve, and we came in with a strategy. And then even if we didn't increase signups or we didn't increase sales, we were able to look at the test and say, okay, so this audience isn't as impacted by social image as we thought they would. Now let's try self-image. So for me, it was those little micro moments where even when we weren't increasing conversions, we were learning. And in addition to that, our clients were saying, wow, like we're all on the same page. We finally know who our customers are, we finally clicked. Uh, and those for me were you know, that was the moment where I was like, okay, this has merit, this is a big thing, and I should go all in.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Why do you think so many companies focus on features and product details instead of emotional drivers?

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, that is the biggest mistake that brands make, is that they focus they make it all about themselves. And I would say that the reason that happens is because we forget. We forget that there's people behind the screens, and we make it about ourselves because it's less risky. When you look at your entire industry, you everyone's probably doing the same. Everyone's probably saying the exact same thing and they look the same way, and everyone wants to copy each other because we're sure that our competitor knows what they're doing. So it feels like it's the right thing to do because if they are doing it, then it must be right. I it's a lot more riskier to say, look, we're not gonna talk about our product and our features everywhere. And when we do talk about it, we're gonna position it in a certain way that most of us don't really pay attention to. It feels risky and it feels scary. So I think a lot of people just prefer to default to saying things like powered by AI or the all-in-one platform for the number one platform for XYZ. It's it's the default and it's easier. And we know what features we have, we know what our technology is, we know what our pricing is, we don't know our customers. What we know about our customers, what most brands know about their customers, is their age, their geographical location, their gender, their browsers, their devices. We've collected data like Pokemons, but we don't actually know people. Like we know their segment. We know how to target them in an ad, but we don't actually understand the people. So it's hard to suddenly say, okay, let's make it emotional. Like it's, you know, focus on psychology. If you don't do the foundational work, you're not gonna be able to, you know, actually hit those notes. So that's why it happens.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

What would you say are some of the most common emotional barriers that prevent people from converting?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

I would say that hands down, it's trust. So when someone is trying to decide between different offers, what normally happens is they go into different websites and they evaluate products. Um, and they look at these sites and they say, okay, this is okay in terms of pricing, this is okay in terms of technology or integrations, or if it's okay in terms of like what you're offering, it is the solution looks great. But your competitors are saying the same. So everything looks the same. Now, how do I make a decision? I make a decision based on how much I think I can trust you and that there's not going to be risk to me taking making this decision. Now, trust is formed off the website. Meaning that once someone has come to your website and they've seen that yes, you're in their pricing bracket, yes, this product is okay for me, then they'll go to Reddit. Then they'll go to LinkedIn, they'll go to Facebook groups, they'll go into WhatsApp groups, or they'll go into Slack and they'll ask people, hey, can I trust this brand? Has anyone had any experience with this brand? Is this a scam? What would your recommendation be? People are having conversations in communities where they trust strangers more than they trust brands because it feels more authentic. So if someone doesn't buy from you, I would say if it's not a features issue, if it's not a technology, like if you if you offer everything that they need and they're still not converting, nine times out of ten, it's gonna be trust. It's gonna be the fact that they haven't seen proof that you actually help people like them, that you can solve their particular problem because their problem is different. Even if they need, I don't know, a project management solution, people need project management solutions for different reasons. So if they can't see that you solve the problem for people like them, that you've done it for other people, that they can trust you. If people around in third party aren't talking about you, you're not gonna get the sale. And and trust is the biggest element right now, and you have like trust is the new conversion rate. That is the most important thing I would focus on for 2026 and beyond.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Do you think companies also misunderstand their customers' motivations?

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Yes. Um, I think what most companies understand is the jobs that they're trying to get done. They understand how they use features or products and they understand what they're trying to achieve. Like, oh, they're not trying, they don't need a hammer and a nail. What they need is to hang a picture. So they know the technical piece of it, of what someone's trying to do. What usually most companies miss is how they feel about that picture and why they're even hanging that picture up. And that is the core of everything. Because everyone has a hammer and everyone has a nail. So your job as a company is to uncover why this image, why are they putting up this picture? Why here in this room, what calls them to choose this image, to put it there? And it's the underlying pieces that no one is saying out loud. No one's coming to your website and saying, I've been feeling a bit lonely, and now I'm putting up a picture because X, Y, Z. So companies are missing that integral, foundational piece about their customers, but it's so much easier to rely on data because it's numbers and it's graphs and it's shiny, colorful heat maps. And I get that, but the missing piece is is the emotion. It's like, why am I even doing this? Why are they here?

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Yeah, if you're checking like a landing page and you notice it's it sounds generic, which happens very often, what's like a universal advice that you can give to uh at least improve that and be less generic?

SPEAKER_00 18:55

I would say that the first question I would ask is, am I making it about myself or am I making it about the product? Um that is like the number one question to ask is your are your images, your visuals, your colors, your copy, your messaging, everything. Is it about you or is it about the customer? If everything on the page is about your features and your technology or your solution or what you provide, and there's no pairing, like actual connection to hey, you want this specific feature because it will make you feel this way, or you're going to achieve this, then you're making it about yourself. And that is the most important question to ask.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

I think it's pretty much I feel like it comes to the fact that um it's that old question of how to separate messaging that actually resonates from messaging that just sounds good internally, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Do you think marketers spend enough time talking to their customers directly?

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Hmm. I mean, I'll just say it depends. Some brands do. Um most marketers, I think, feel like they don't want to bother their customers. So they don't want to do interviews and they don't want to do surveys because they're worried that they're spamming their audience or they're annoying their audience. And um, that's why there's so much missed opportunity. But there's so much you can do if you do it. And I think a lot of times it's also reserved to very specific roles, like, oh, if you're a product marketer, if you're a UX researcher, you can speak to customers, but if you're a marketer, then send out a survey, I'll be fine. Um, so not enough marketers are speaking to their uh customers.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Yeah, because one thing you emphasize a lot is customer research, right? So why is that so critical for effective marketing?

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Yeah, customer research is the basics of everything, and most people skip it because it's the hard part. Um, on my end, I'm always saying that you can't you absolutely cannot skip research. Research is the most important part, and it requires not a lot of uh hours, but it does require uh looking for the right answers and focusing on what matters most. So you're not trying to just um ask people, hey, why did you come to the website or why did you buy from us? You're trying to actually create all sorts of uh insights from diversified research. So you want to actually do social listening, surveys, interviews. You want to be able to look at competitor analysis and many different pieces of research that will help you understand your customers better.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

What would you say are some ways that companies can uncover the real language, language that their customers use? Like the most practical way.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

For us, the way we go about it is with every piece of research that we conduct. So if we're doing social listening, for example, which is the art of combing through conversations that are happening on Reddit or Facebook groups or LinkedIn or YouTube comments, we're actually looking at what people are saying, the questions that they're asking, what they're complaining about, what they love, what they hate. And we're using that as copy. We're using that in order to increase conversions and actually write copy that people love and resonate with. And you can get things wrong, but that's where A-B testing and experimentation comes in. If you take the insights from everything that you've been researching and you apply those to A-B tests and you start testing things, then you can see how it's doing. The idea is that you're not going to suddenly scratch all the research that you did just because something didn't work well, but you'll be able to better understand if you are applying the research in a good way. And you can always do more research, more uh in-depth research in order to dive deeper and uncover more emotions and the psychological profile of your prospect.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

But I I think you've also said in the past that CRO is just uh a lot of people think that CRO is just running A B tests. But why would you say that's a limited way to look at optimization? Do you think uh there's more than just A-B tests?

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah, definitely. Conversion optimization isn't just about A-B testing. A B testing is one tool that you can use in order to see if you are increasing conversions or not. But not everyone has the amount of traffic and the amount of conversions per month that they need in order to run a statistically significant test. And so what you need to be doing is before and after tests, which aren't statistically significant, but they are a way to optimize your website. When you're doing research and you're looking at heat maps or user recordings, or you're you're actually taking all the research that you've done in terms of social listening or interviews or surveys, you are still optimizing. The act of research is optimization because you already have you already have the insights that you need to clearly see why people aren't converting. You can see based on your insights, oh, I'm saying the wrong things, I'm writing the wrong copy, I'm including social proof that isn't as important as I thought it was, or doesn't actually resonate and connect. So there's a lot of ways to optimize and actually get meaningful insights and increase conversions even without A B testing. Well, the process of emotional targeting is always the same. You start with the research to uncover the emotional drivers, then you do a website audit. And with the website audit, you're not focused on seeing elements or looking at technical pieces. You are focused on asking very specific strategic questions like Am I making it about myself or am I making it about the customer? Can people clearly see that we're speaking to them? Can they see their pains? Are we describing their pains and their problems in the right way? So those are the first steps before testing. First, you need to do real research, then you need to audit your website with your new site insights, and only then you can start testing and making changes.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

What role would you say storytelling plays in covert conversion optimization?

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Storytelling is a is the core of uh optimization because at the end of the day, when people come to your website and or they're reading your emails or your ads, anything that you create, even a blog post, has a story. And you have to actually write a story for your customers that resonates with them so that when they arrive on the website or they read any piece of content of yours, uh, it resonates with them. And it feels like, oh, I'm reading something that was really written from me. And so storytelling really is important, it's the core of everything.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

And how much of conversion is messaging versus design?

SPEAKER_00 27:26

For us, it's not really about percentages, it's more about what comes first. So messaging always comes first. You always write your story and your message first, and then design is built to amplify that message. A lot of times you'll see designers and brands use design in order to uh look cool and look like, you know, up to up to date with all the new trends, but it doesn't actually help with the copy and it doesn't help people read or understand your message. So messaging always comes first, and then you design in order to make sure that the design is helping people read, it's driving people the main message home and people can really understand what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

And of course, your work actually focuses heavily on websites and products, but how can content creators apply these principles to their content?

SPEAKER_00 28:24

So, actually, we do a lot of optimization off of the website too. Um, and we've also done a lot of stuff in terms of content, written content and video content. And at the end of the day, what's cool about the emotional targeting research is that it applies to all sorts of optimization. Even if you're creating a video right now for YouTube, or if you are writing a blog post, or if you are creating reels for Instagram, they can all be based on the research that you've just done. We recently worked with a cosmetics company and did a huge uh audit for them. And a lot of the research that we showed them, they've been using to create better ads on Instagram and create better posts on TikTok. So it really is about using all of the information that you have about your customers and understanding their emotional arc and using that everywhere on all the web.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Yeah, I feel like now one thing that I always say is if you're starting a business in a way, you're also becoming an influencer, right? Because it kind of comes hand in hand, like you have to do both things, you have to uh in a way uh be present on social media. It's it's a must now, right? So um when you think about a video, you're creating like some sort of advertising, like an ad. Um what psychological factor determines whether they keep watching? Is there anything that you put like in the beginning of the fan the video? Is there any sort of retention technique that you came up with that you feel like it's very effective?

SPEAKER_00 30:01

You know, it really depends on who your audience is. So every audience likes to see different types of videos. And you can see that there's a lot of advice out there about create a hook and then wheel them in. And then, like, there's a lot of advice out there, but I think ultimately when I'm creating videos, I am very minded about who's listening to them, who's watching them, and also what stage of awareness people are at. I think a lot of the times when people are creating videos, they're very much thinking about selling and less about where someone is in the middle of the journey right now. Are they at the beginning where they're just trying to learn stuff? Are they comparing products or services, or are they ready to buy? And that will actually impact what kind of videos you create. And so I it's not that I don't believe in creating a hook and giving a call to action at the end and all that good stuff. That's great. But if you don't, if you're not solving a problem in every single video that you create, then it's just fluff and it's not really worth anyone's time.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

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SPEAKER_00 32:06

No, it's definitely the same because at the end of the day, you're asking for an action. Sometimes, sometimes the action is bigger and harder. I think when it comes to subscribing and engagement, it's a lot easier in terms of emotional targeting. Um, but the foundation is still is still the same foundation.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

And is there like any specific mistake that you've noticed creators making that is not really effective that you would have done differently?

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Um again, I think maybe trying to sell when people aren't ready to sell and and to buy from you, and you're just kind of pushing them on like buying stuff when they're not not really ready, and what you should be doing is solving a problem for them.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Yeah, because I see that being a struggle to a lot of influencers turning their audience attention into revenue. Uh, why do you think that is a struggle? And if if they are struggling with that, what should they do? Who should they hire? What should be done?

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Um, well, uh obviously the first thing is research. You need to understand who you're speaking to and why this is happening. There's a lot of different people out there that can help with video optimization, and I think the core is always the same, like understanding your customers and understanding what content they're interested in. There's so many videos and podcasts created these days that it's hard to stand out in a crowded market. So actually making sure that you're putting out information people care about matters. I will also say that a lot of IRA leads, like our leads at the agency, are people who say, Oh, you know, I saw your video on YouTube, and then I clicked through to your landing page, and then I went on your LinkedIn, and then I got on your email list, and then two months later I got an email from you, and now I saw you on social media on Instagram. So, like, it's such a different type of uh customer journey these days. So you really do need to not just pay attention to the one channel, which is YouTube, but look at everywhere where your customers are.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

I mean, that's how I found you, and that's how a lot of our leads find us. So it does work for sure. Um, how important is positioning when creators launch products or services? And what would you say separates a creator who builds strong businesses from those who only get views?

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Positioning is important, very important. One person that you should follow if you haven't is April Dunford. She's the queen of positioning. She's written two incredible books about it, and it's really one of the most important things to differ ways to differentiate yourself in the market. And I think it's hard to do positioning when you're just getting started as a creator. It's different than like when you're a huge brand or you're an enterprise. So a lot of it is focusing on your individual voice and what you can bring to the table a lot of the times, versus um a huge positioning job now that you need to do. And I think creators, especially young and new creators, have the best options out there because you guys are on social media all the time and you can see your audience everywhere. So doing the research yourselves and positioning yourselves as the person who understands the customer is easy or easier.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Yeah, but also like uh why do audiences form strong loyalty towards certain creators? Because I feel like that's the plus of this generation. I feel like the connection is much more personal than it used to be. And I see a lot of corporate spaces face in uh a lot of struggles when it comes to that because, in a way, you kind of need to break a barrier, right? And be more approachable and relatable.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Yeah. Corporate businesses do not want to be approachable or relatable. They want to speak in business jargon and they're missing out on so many audiences. It's insane. Um, one of the biggest things I talk about is how B2B feels like it should be boring, but it's not, and it's actually a very, very, very emotional decision. And too many corporates are just ignoring that. I think for creators and for younger generations, the reason the connection is so deep is because they're being born with a phone, and most of their communication and most of their life is on the phone, they're in different social networks communicating and talking to each other there. Um, when I got my phone, my first phone when I was 16, like we didn't have that, and internet came way later. So I think a lot of the communication and a lot of friendships are built online. And I have, I mean, I met my husband online unlike Twitter. So I it is it's always been there, it's always been a thing. Well, when Twitter was Twitter and not X, um, but it's it's different now, and you connect to people, and people want to follow influencers and they want to see other people like them. And I think a lot of the times when you're at school, especially when you're a teenager or even a little younger or older, you don't really see other people like you. You feel like you're in your own little bubble, and maybe people around you are very similar, but everyone's very focused on themselves. So seeing someone online suddenly talk about the things that you care about, it makes you uh feel more connected. And there's also thousands and sometimes millions of people following. So suddenly you feel like you're part of a tribe, you feel like you're part of a community. Oh, more people are like me and they feel the same way, and you want to be part of that tribe. Um, but that's also why a lot of you know propaganda and fake news happens, and a lot of stuff happens because we kind of follow this, you know, influencer and think, oh, this person knows everything, when in fact they know one thing that's very good, but that's it. So you have to be careful.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

I always say that like social media is the place that it's actually cool to be cringe and overshare. And that's not something that we actually do in real life, but once we turn the cameras on, it's completely acceptable when you're like in a way rewarded for it.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Yes. So uh you're rewarded for it online, but you're not really rewarded for it in life.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Yes, exactly. But would you say it's uh this statement is true that uh personal brands are inherently stronger at emotional connection than corporate brands? Do you think it's safe for us to say that?

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Yeah, absolutely. It's also why corporates are now trying to get their employees to engage in the name of the corporate, and they're trying to get people to like be more uh friendly. And then it's why you see all sorts of brands like Wendy's and Beyond Me. They're all like, you know, it's a brand, but it's clearly one person, and they're all communicating as one person because that's where you get like the emotional connection. And it's all also why they talk about things like heated rivalry and all sorts of stuff, but like is isn't really connected to what they even do, but they're that's how they're connecting. So I think a lot of corporates are corporate companies are having a hard time. So they're mostly on LinkedIn, but they're trying to convince their employees to post about stuff and they're still kind of navigating that. But it's it's harder. And that's also why a lot of CEOs do the are actually like the front of the company versus the actual corporate. Even in even in my company at GetUplift, I'm the face of the company, but GetUplift has its own newsletter and it has its own like LinkedIn profile, but we don't use it as much as we use mine.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

Um also I feel like um a lot of companies now, they they just want to be relatable, but they don't know how to approach it. So, in a way, it's funny, like you said, like they choose a topic that it's really like uh trendy right now, but it doesn't really relate to their content. So I'm curious to know if a lot of corporate spaces, a lot of uh companies have reached out to you and asked for your help in in cases like this, like they just want to be relatable and they don't know how.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Yeah, I definitely we definitely get a lot of requests from brands to help, you know, actually understand their customers better and know what to talk about. I think the best example I can give of like brands doing things that have nothing to do with like their persona and what they actually do is like when Taylor Swift got engaged and then suddenly everyone was creating like orange flyers and stuff. And I was like, this has nothing to do with like what is Taylor Swift to do with you? You're just like jumping on the wagon of like orange banners. I'm like, this has you're not gonna get more sales, you're not. Um, but that's the thing, is like you think, oh, if I'm trendy, then that's going to work. And I think when when I work, when we work with companies and they want to be more relatable, we do the emotional targeting research. And then their social media marketing teams know what to talk about and they know how to create more videos and they know how to create content that people resonate with without having to talk about things that make no sense or are, you know, aren't connected to your brand. And I'm not saying you can't talk about trendy stuff, but that's not the stuff that's gonna get you clients. If you are in in you know in a certain industry and you talk about fun stuff in the industry, that's okay. But if you're just talking about just jumping on the bandwagon effect because other people are talking about Taylor Swift or heated rivalry or whatever the next thing is on threads, then you're just missing out on the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Yeah, also I feel like I'm I'm missing my point here.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

But as you were saying, I noticed that everything now seems very generic. And in a way, if you're actually focusing so much on creating things that are trendy, you're being data-driven. You're thinking about SEO, so you're already going the opposite direction, right? Of everything that you've talked about in the beginning of this conversation. Like you're not actually thinking about your audience, you're just thinking about how am I gonna show up on the first page of Google? And also, on top of that, we have AI now. And how how do you think uh AI helps or hurts this industry? Do you think things uh like messaging and design and everything are in a way more generic now?

SPEAKER_00 42:56

Oh yeah. Or because everyone's using AI in order to write their scripts or in order to write blog posts or in order to create content. So everyone sounds the exact same and they're saying the exact same because AI is pulling from all over the web. So everyone just sounds the same. If you if you're using AI in order to uh write your content, then everyone can sound and look exactly like you. Um and we're definitely seeing that. We're seeing that everywhere where like everyone, like if you were to just switch logos between companies, you wouldn't even know because they all look the same. Um, and it's that's a sad reality that we have right now with AI.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

Uh there's so much content being automated, but uh, is there a way that we can still automate but maintain authenticity, or do you think it goes the opposite direction?

SPEAKER_00 43:49

Yeah, I think the goal is using AI specific tools, I think, in my opinion. It's not like the the like Chat GPT and Gemini are the things where like you Ask it to write stuff for you, and that's what makes it generic. But if you're using specific tools in order to um hone your skills, for example, I'm not a good designer, I have a lot of big ideas and I'm a I'm a I'm good at writing, but then I'm trying to like describe something to a designer and it doesn't work and it comes out weird. So I use tools now, AI tools, to like throw in everything that I wrote, and then suddenly I have a design or I have like an idea of what it could look like, or I have a new slide deck or an infographic. So I think you can use AI to automate a lot of things if there's a strategy behind it and if you're doing the core of the thinking. If you're outsourcing your thinking to AI, then yeah, you're you're you've lost the game. Um but if you're using AI in order to take your thinking and then distribute it or create things with it, then that's how you win.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

And do you think uh psychology-driven marketing will become more um important as content becomes more abundant now?

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Oh, absolutely. I think I think emotion is the foundation of everything. And without emotion, uh companies are gonna be redundant and they're not gonna survive the next few years. That's like not another.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Do you think they realize that now? Or is it something that is yet to come?

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Most don't. Or most think that they they're doing it already. And most think about emotion as like a fluffy headline. I'm like, oh, I'm I need to write something fluffy. But that's that's not the point. Um, emotion is the foundation of everything in marketing, especially now because of AI mode and AIs. And if we you know, people are going less and less to websites. Um, they're reading everything off of your website. And if you're not optimizing with emotion everywhere, then you're gonna lose the battle.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

Is there any shift that you've noticed that companies are already doing now when they're approaching marketing?

SPEAKER_00 45:58

I think there's a lot of talk about changing, but I was just to I was just talking about this with a colleague today that even within AI, the conversation of SEO is about ranking. Everyone's talking about how do I rank in Chat GPT? How do I rank in in Gemini? There's no ranking. People are treating it like it's Google, like it was 20 years ago, and we're applying, you know, old school marketing to this. What matters is AI visibility. You want to be visible on AI, but you're not gonna be able to rank it. So I think right now, you know, there's so many updates, so many new things happening every single day that we're trying to, a lot of people are just trying to keep up. A lot of people are just trying to make it work when in fact what we need to do is sit back for a moment and look at the bigger picture. Um, and I think most people are just chasing stuff at this point, and it's gonna require taking a step back.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

I I see a lot of people also saying that attention is becoming harder to convert into real business results. Do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_00 47:08

Yeah, absolutely, especially when there's just so much, so much going on everywhere, uh, and the world feels like it's on fire. So you're just you know you're just sitting there talking about graphs and heat maps. But yes, it's it's very hard. There's a lot of content everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

Yeah, what companies or creators that you've seen and you're like, oh, you're actually doing a great job emotionally driven marketing, like when it comes to that POV.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Uh well, I mean, there's many different types of businesses, and I think it depends if you're like a coach, a consultant, or a corporate, or if you're a small agency, or if you're a product team. I think I'm seeing a lot of great content from some smaller startups that are creating really interesting content. Like one of them is LIME. Uh, Limi AI has a really cool platform that helps you understand your visibility in AI. And they're putting out some really great content that is very specific to their audience, and I really enjoy watching it. Um, and there's all sorts of other creators uh that are more like solopreneurs that are creating content that speaks directly to their customers and about them. And I think it really depends. Like, I love uh all sorts of people that I've been following for years who do great content. Um, and as long as they're speaking to me and what I connect with, then I like it.

SPEAKER_02 48:41

Yeah, getup lift is a great one too. You should check it out. They they know how to do it. But yeah, um uh if a creator or company is listening to this interview and wants to improve their messaging tomorrow, what is the first step they should take and what's an overall advice that you can give us?

SPEAKER_00 48:59

Research, research, research.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

That's a great one, and that's one that I hear a lot, and people still don't follow it.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

So nope, they don't. But I'm here to say research, research, research, and care about your customers' emotions.

SPEAKER_02 49:14

Yes, Talia, thank you so much for doing this. Is there anything you'd like to promote right now? Your website, your company, your book, anything, feel free to do so.

SPEAKER_00 49:24

Um not really. Check out my book. Uh, the book is very helpful in helping you getting started with emotional targeting for anything you're creating. There's a lot of uh examples there about B2B to show you that even in B2B, which is supposed to be the most boring product, you can use emotion. So whatever you're selling, whether it's toilet paper or courses, um, you can use emotion. And um, yeah, that would be great.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

Awesome. Thank you so much for doing this.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

Sure, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 49:54

If there's one takeaway from this video, it's this people don't buy because of features, they buy because of emotion. Subscribe, leave a comment, and I'll see you in the next episode. Bye.