Too Hot For TV
A podcast dedicated to the expanded universe of your favourite franchises.
Too Hot For TV
S01 E14 - Judgement Day Come Down
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On this episode Dylan is joined by Ian Winterton to look at the expanded universe of Terminator. First up they discuss the comic 'Terminator 2: Judgment Day - Cybernetic Dawn' written by Dan Abnett and illustrated by Rod Whigham (pencils) and Jack Snider (inks). Then they look at the TV show 'Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles'.
Welcome back to Hot for TV. We are the podcast that looks at all things expanded universe. Today I'm joined by a writer and a podcaster. It's Ian Winterton. Ian, welcome.
SPEAKER_00Hey, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_04I'm good, thanks.
SPEAKER_00Good morning.
SPEAKER_04Good morning, good day, good evening, depending on where they're listening, but it's morning for us. So today we're going to jump into the expanded media of Terminator. Terminator is an American media franchise created by James Cameron and Gail Anherd. It's considered to be of the cyberpunk sub-genre of science fiction, starting with Terminator in 1984. It spawned four film sequels, TV shows, animations, comic books, theme park rides, games, and a whole host of action figures. What's your history with the Terminator franchise?
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm 54, but I didn't watch the first Terminator when it came out. I was quite late to quite a lot of franchises, and I had exactly the same sort of thing with Alien. But but with Terminator, as I became 19 and got in with a load of cool kids, I watched all the 80s movies I hadn't watched. Right. And with Terminator, I watched the first Terminator the day before I went to see Judgment Day. So So I was like, I know what this I know what this film is and it's awesome, and it was one of the one of the best sort of communal viewings. Loads of people who were excited for the sequel the next day. And then me who'd never seen it before, they were reliving reliving their excitement through me. And yeah, I loved it. And then I went to see T2 at a big cinema with the same group of people after not very much sleep being 18 and uh quite hungover. And it was like watching a wrestling match or something. It was just amazing in a in a cinema in Northampton. And yeah, it the the opposite thing happened with Alien when Alien 3. We were like, oh, this is gonna be amazing. And no, it wasn't.
SPEAKER_04I will not hear a bad word said against Alien 3.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well don't get me started. But they it may come up again if we if we mention Dark Fate, similar, similar missteps, I think, with characters. But yeah, so that was my initial baptism of fire of going, fuck me, two really, really top-notch films, and I must have watched them both over and over, especially T2, because when you get kids and you go, Well, there is Terminator, but it's probably a bit violent, and they're about ten when they start getting into wanting to watch films like that. So we watched Terminator 2. Terminator 2 must be so many kids' entry point into the world. Yeah, absolutely. Because Terminator, Terminator itself is, you know, set up that you can, you don't need to watch it, even though you should. Yeah. But yeah, so that was basically my intro to Terminator. And then not I've not been enthused by much of it, apart from as we'll see, the Server Cono Chronicles. Because the the other movies are generally awful.
SPEAKER_04I don't know what you mean. So I saw not the day before, but I saw Terminator just before I saw Terminator 2. Like it was a matter of months. I because I remember older kids being excited about Terminator 2, but I couldn't go and see it because I was too young. So my parents let me watch the Terminator because they're bad parents. And then Or good parents. And then Terminator 2 came out on home video and we rented it and rented it and rented it. I was obsessed with it as a kid. And Terminator is my second favourite franchise after Doctor Who. There are two good Terminator films that I can find positive points in most of the sequels, apart from Terminator Genesis, but none of them quite reach the the heady heights of the first two. And yeah, I've been obsessed with it for my entire life to the point that I have read books, comics, I've watched fan films, I've even sat through a couple of years ago, because I'm so starved of content. I sat through six or eight hours of gameplay in a future war on YouTube just because I wanted some more Terminator content and this this gave me that hit. So I am, yeah, absolutely obsessed with this. Have you ever jumped into any of the expanded media besides the Sarah Connor Chronicles?
SPEAKER_01I hadn't this for this podcast, it was my first time reading reading any of the comics whatsoever. So But yeah, the Sarah Cono Chronicles, we'll come on to those later, but I I really liked. But the other films, Terminator 3, I just remember thinking it was just a big fight. They always seem to not get what Terminator's about and just go for the fighting. And then the really cool bit was at the end.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like the last it's got like the bat last five minutes, best last five minutes of a mediocre film in cinema history. And then I couldn't I didn't make it all the way through Genesis. I just remember it being like Bill and Ted, kind of Bill and Ted's approach to time travel, but with Terminator. And just dreadful. I just remember switching it off. And then I actually quite liked the Christian Bear one. I didn't I I I I thought that was solid. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I really like that film. You know, it's not amazing, but it was the first part of a trilogy that never happened. And they always said, you know, this is 10 years into the war. We'll get to that future war you see at the beginning of Terminator 1 and 2 later in the trilogy. So I thought it was a good setup. Christian Bale was a bit meh in terms of his performance, but in terms of like an interesting, believable war and doing something different with the franchise. I think I think it's the best stab they've had since Terminator 2, to be perfectly honest. Terminator Dark Fate, I enjoyed until Arnie showed up, I thought, as a sort of another soft reboot. The first sort of 45 minutes worked, and then it all went a bit generic.
SPEAKER_01It's again they just get to the fighting. Yeah. Like that's what everyone wants. And I like the setup. I like the whole I like the whole judgment day has moved on and there's a new saviour of mankind. That's brilliant, like sci-fi nerdiness. But it did in a similar way to Alien 3 that I was mentioning, it did sort of lose me at the beginning by going, they've been through this massive struggle, and then CGI Edward Furlong gets killed at the beginning. And that just takes me out of a story because I'm like, that's too tragic. That's like Newt's, that's like Newt drowning in a hibernation pod. That's just that's just ruined the film that went before.
SPEAKER_04But I guess they've gone, we've tried it with John Conner on two, well, three other films. Yeah. Perhaps we need to get rid of John Connor and he's not the person we need to focus on.
SPEAKER_01I wonder if there was a thing in some contract somewhere that said if Edward Fur if that character is there, Edward Furlong's got to play him, and they were like, well, we could have what we really could have is an adult John Connor with Sarah Connor getting a foractor because they obviously don't like Edward Furlong or else they would have got him in.
SPEAKER_04Well so Ed Edward Furlong was due to be John Connor in Terminator 3, but he had so many drug problems at the time that the basic signed up and one of the conditions of his contract was you need to take drug tests and not take any drugs, and he failed them and got arrested or something like that.
SPEAKER_01And so No God really. Yeah, actually, yeah, it's it's John Connor in Terminator 3, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it's a different actor. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And when they developed Terminator Salvation, th they were supposed to use the guy from Terminator 3, but eventually it turned into something else because they realized without an Arnie it needed to be a star vehicle, and the fact I can't remember his name says all you need to know about why he didn't lead this new reboot of the franchise.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, yeah. Oh dear. But then they got uh the most they got out of that was Christian Bale's expletive laden freak out on set, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_04I'm really interested in Salvation for a number of reasons. A because it does something different, but also because I think it was because of the writer's strike and then production problems, but the film they started making is not the film that came out to the point that and it's never leaked, but the guy who wrote the novelization of the film when they still did that had to rewrite the entire thing because when he saw the film he was like, I've novelized a completely different film here. So I don't know. There's all sorts of stuff behind the scenes of why that did and didn't work.
SPEAKER_01He had the wrong script. Yeah, well, the writer's strike comes into Seracana Chronicles' story as well, doesn't it? That first writer's strike.
SPEAKER_04So let's jump into the comics first. So I sort of elected that if we were going to do the TV series, I wanted to jump into some comics first. So there's a run of comics called Terminator 2 Judgment Day, Cybernetic Dawn, and they came out between November of 95 and April of 96. Cybernetic Dawn's written by Dan Abnett, illustrated by Rod Wingham and Jack Snyder, and lettered by David Lamphier. Sarah and John Connor believed they have prevented Skynet's creation by destroying Cyberdyne systems. However, Skynet has already sent three more Terminators into the past before its defeat. Two T-800s tasked with killing John Connor and a female T-1000 infiltrator, Karen Stern, whose mission is to ensure Skynet's eventual creation by recovering surviving research and locating alternative technology companies capable of developing the artificial intelligence. As Sarah and John flee the relentless attacks, they are joined by former detective David Mossberg and the family of the late Miles Dyson. Together, they discover that Cyberdyne was only one path to Skynet's creation, and that the other organizations possess research that could lead them to the same future. The conflict culminates in a series of battles in the Californian desert and at a technology facility where Sarah and her allies destroy the remaining Terminators and seemingly eliminate Karen Stern. Although they survive, John realizes that Skynet's creation may be impossible to prevent completely because technological progress will eventually recreate it through another source. Determined to prepare for that future, he secretly keeps the damaged head of a T-800, intending to study its technology in the hope of developing a way to defeat Skynet when it finally emerges, rather than trying to stop its creation today. I've read quite a few Terminator comics. I've never read these ones, but there's a big list of like the best Terminator comics, and this this comes at about seven or eight down the list. I'm not sure that's true, because I've definitely read ones that are much better than this, but this one is held up in fairly high regard. But you you've never read any Terminator comics before, right?
SPEAKER_00No, I haven't.
SPEAKER_04So how does this tale tie into Terminator 2?
SPEAKER_01I think getting straight into I I did I did in general like it, but I I guess in terms of one of the marks against it is it happens like five minutes after Terminator 2, which feels like a silly thing to do. Because Terminator 2 is such an epic, we're all right. And and Sarah Cono Chronicles does it much better. We're all right, but probably not. But to go, oh done all that, that was really good, wasn't it? That was like one of the best films ever made, and we've uh and I've just melted Arnold Schwarzenegger and probably stopped Skynet. Oh no, we haven't. So if it was a film or something, you'd be like, What are you doing?
SPEAKER_04It's like they've gone here's an extra hour of Terminator 2 that you could just bolt on the end that just sort of diminishes.
SPEAKER_01Glenn Close is like Glenn Close, the cyborg, has woken up and you thought she was dead. But yeah, so it's he's got some good stuff, but yeah, my first note would be uh set it a couple of years later. Yeah. Maybe did did they sort of have to I don't know, were they under instructions to like go make it look like it does in Terminator 2 with that young Edward Furlong and everything's the same?
SPEAKER_04I guess so. Cause it it is the young Edward Furlong, and it's he's still the cocky little teenager in this version that you don't get in any of the other films or Sarah Chronic Chronicles or most of the sort of Thai in media, so it feels like it's sort of a last gasp of that version of the character. Yeah. I imagine went through Terminator 2, and if you believe this, then went through Terminator 2.1 and then had some sort of breakdown at the end of it, but he's still very much, you know, running on fumes of uh the the adrenaline of the adventure he has been on and is on now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. It's got some really good stuff in it. Like, I just wish they'd given the characters a bit of a gap from Terminator 2. But having the the government sort of doing stuff with uh Terminators from uh that have Terminator time travel experiments that have wound up sort of dysfunctional, added a whole new other thing to it. I yeah, I really don't know why they had to sort of make them discover that the second Terminator 2 had finished. Yeah, it is it's sort of ready it's it's ready to like be like we think we're all right, but in the same way as they do with Saracona Chronicles. So give them a breathing space, give them a can we relax yet? Because that's really good in the Saracona Chronicles, can we relax?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know? And no we can't, yeah we can mum, no we can't. And then then they turns out no they can't relax. But with this it was, yeah, like you say, just bolted on. But it's it's very well I mean Dan Abner is always, always good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I remember seeing a Stuart Lee interview with him of all things, just saying well it was on a podcast, I think. But just saying he always writes things that have that are much better than they have any right to be, which is maybe a sniffy way of saying Stuart Lee, you say you like comics and things, but why did you have to say put it in that way? He always writes at top of his game and whatever whatever he's hired to do, he always writes very brilliantly. Which is why I guess he's never out of work.
SPEAKER_04I suspect he was hired because the the two comics in the series, so the one that you've read, Cybernetic Dawn, and then Nuclear Twilight is the corresponding strip, and they're sort of interlinked. And I suspect the editor turned round and went, Right, Dan, you're writing the post-Terminator 2, we want to know exactly what has happened afterwards. The next one jumps forward to basically after the bomb drops, and it's it's the story of the war told over sort of four or five issues, ending with him sending Kyle Reese off into the past. So it's like the beginning of Terminator Genesis, but better. He does a good job, as you say, but perhaps he was dealt the the shorthand by having, oh, I've got to write another Terminator film set in exactly the same era as the greatest Terminator film. Yeah. But he does some nice things with it. I I'm curious, because I'm not immersed in the fandom of Terminator, but whenever I've been online, nobody can agree what Terminator should be. Some people are like future war, some people are like it's a chase movie, some people are like it's an action movie, some people are like it's a time travel movie. So how does this version, which is very much carrying on with it being basically an action movie slash chase, work for you? And where do you stand on where the Terminator franchise should be?
SPEAKER_01I think like a lot of popular things like Doctor Who or James Bond, it has different iterations and some make some parts of fandom hold up their hands and scream this isn't correct. Yeah. And then other people love the thing that the other people don't like. But I think the Terminator, I think much as I like the future war stuff, and I think some people absolutely love that stuff, and it's almost like they're itching for a film set in that. But I think it's kernel, it's sort of it's its main thing is it's present day and it's things being sent back. So as soon as you're not in the things being sent back, then you're into a different kind of thing. Yeah. Which is a light Terminator Salvation. That was a sci-fi movie set after you know, set set in the future, like a sort of rougher and readier version of The Matrix or something. And it wasn't quintessential Terminator, really. But I also think, as I've sort of alluded to already, if it's just uh smash things and run around chasing, then it loses something as well. It's got to have for for and again I think Seracona Chronicles nails this for the most part, it's got to have the characters and the emotion and its present day weirdness. So that I love time travel when it's you know, when it's set in our present day, but you've got people who know things or or are hiding out. Like the I don't know, it reminds me of the Twelve Monkeys uh TV show as well, where you've got like people hiding out in the present day who know stuff, are acting weird, are doing weird things, have safe houses that uh you know, they always can go to this address and that kind of thing. And you have that similar thing in the in the Saracona chronicles, but but I think, yeah, I guess if I had to choose, I would say it's that mixture of action and heart, but in the present day, with sci-fi elements, and that enables the budget to be manageable as well.
SPEAKER_04See, I I think it's done all it can do in the present day. So I'm I would air more towards the the future war stuff, but as you say, it becomes a different franchise at that point, which ultimately is what they were trying to do with Salvation, and is go, we we feel like we've told this story. But then Sarah Connor Chronicles comes along and Terminator Zero come along and go, no, there is more you can do in that world, but maybe we'll get to the future of the franchise at the at the end. So here we've got Sarah and John, very much as we knew them. We get a check-in with the Dyson family, who it kind of always surprises me when they bring them into spin-off media and indeed other films, but I guess, you know, why not? And, you know, a whole host of different types of Terminators and things like that. We get a check-in with uh Enrique, don't we, at the beginning, who's been killed, the guy who where basically where Sarah stored all her weapons in Terminator 2. So it's it is fully picking up on different strands from that. Despite its sort of ten minutes later vibe, is it a successful sequel, do you think?
SPEAKER_01I'd say largely. I think it feels too slight. Like it doesn't feel like this is this is episode three of the saga. Yeah. Which I think is I think is a problem comics run up against quite often is if they're spin-offs from huge big things, then the next instalment isn't a huge big thing. It's like a little vignette, and that can work to your favour if it's set in between stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But if it's like a direct sequel to this massive movie, one of the biggest movies ever made, with everything it goes, then it's ideally got to be huge.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I but I guess if they were if it's part of an ongoing saga, then maybe it becomes a huge epic. Yeah. I don't know. But uh where did where does it go after this?
SPEAKER_04So it is it is literally they emerge from below the ground in Judgment Day. We spend a bit of time with young John, and then it cuts forward to that guy with the scar that you see at the beginning of Terminator 2. And yeah, they they they fight a bit of a war, they win the war, they send Carl Reese off into time. It ends with a a T1000 being still alive essentially after the war's won. And that's where it goes. And that's a story that's been told a number of times in spin-off media and ultimately in Terminator Genesis that you know everybody's trying to close that loop essentially of that's the point you get to of sending Kyle Reese back. It's done fairly successfully in the comic, in this comic. There's another version of the comic where they do it, which was done in the late 80s, I think. So it's before Terminator 2's even happened, and sort of ends up contradicting that. Because it's an irresistible place for spin off media to go, isn't it? It's like we as fans, if you're a fan writing something or have a passing interest in a franchise, it's like, okay, what are the bits we can pick up on? It's not content with just telling a brand new story.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And especially when there was only one Terminator film.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like it seems weird now. A bit like with Alien. It's weird that there was a point where no one went, Oh, there's obviously going to be loads of sequels. Yeah. Because this is such an amazing franchise. And with the case of Alien, I wish they hadn't bothered most of the time. But I guess with the same of Terminator, it's they're both similar paths in that spin-off media, especially in the movies, just whatever movie making by committee goes on with these situations, they just sap all potential out of these things.
SPEAKER_04I do wonder I mean, I guess in the 80s, sequels weren't necessarily a thing. And Terminator wasn't a huge hit. It became a lot more profitable by its reputation as sort of a cult movie and people spending $15.99 on a video, which is something that's sort of lost now. Your release cycle is you've got about three or four months to make your money back, and then you're gone forever if you if you don't do it, which is a sad thing that we've lost because we would never have got Terminator 2 if the the video sales for Terminator hadn't been so strong. So yeah, you're right. Instead, you've got a committee of people going, How do we make this forever?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and Terminator 2 wasn't a committee. Terminator 2 was James Cameron's vision, same as aliens. So it was, you know, it's it's giving people that freedom and also going, here's a hundred million dollars. Yeah. And being okay with it.
SPEAKER_04How do you feel about the characterisations of Sarah, John, the Dysons, people like that in in this comic?
SPEAKER_01I think one of the things Abnet does really well is easy sort of nails the characters for me. They uh the voiceover stuff's from Sarah's, you know, you could just hear Linda Hamilton saying it. And to be honest, if if if somehow they'd commissioned him to go his uh movie-length arc to write a graphic novel that feels like the third film, that would have in this tone, that would have been awesome. Yeah. But that's not how comics work most of the time. We've got this thing, we're gonna sell them. Let's but but you've only got four four issues, uh, bollocks. And I I think if you've only got four issues, then you start going, well what do we do then? Yeah. And I I d I don't think ten minutes later it turns out they hadn't won is the best way of doing it. There's but this is some interesting things, it's kind of tantalizing because it does set up something that could run and run.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like Sarah Connor Chronicles style. It it could be the government have got these things and the back and forth, and it could just sort of be up and running as a continuing comic book series.
SPEAKER_04There was a continuing comic book series that's it was a bit like the Sarah Conocronicles in many ways, in that it was bits of like resistance fighters sent back, then it was jump forward to war stuff. And those are available in two big omnibuses. And there's some good stories, there's some less good stories in there, but it was continuing for a bit. But then I think ever since then it's been like, no, we're gonna do a limited run. This one's tied into Terminator 2, this one's tied into Terminator 3, this one's tied into Salva, like there's all sorts of stuff. But it it's interesting where comics were at the time of this because you know it's 95, 96, and I had a look at what was going on, and there wasn't a huge amount of tie-in comics in the way that we know them today. Now, companies like IDW have them for everything. But actually at the time, there was an awful lot of comics getting cancelled. So Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles had just been cancelled, New Titans had just been cancelled, Doom Patrol, and all three Punisher titles had all been cancelled. And then DC Image Comics, Dark Horse Comics all moved over to Diamond Comic Distributors. So it sounds like the industry was in a bit of a shifting phase, and maybe this was the beginning of people trying to do more tie-in comics to franchises outside of the comics industry to get new readers in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense. God, if they thought things were bad then with the comics industry, isn't it? Try now. Where uh people don't read.
SPEAKER_04What about the art in this comic? How did you feel about it? Were there any particular standout scenes or anything like that or frames?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I must say the art doesn't jump out as being particularly amazing. It's alright. It does it does its job.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I guess there's a few nice splashes of Terminators coming. But it it does feel, as someone who writes comics, it does feel very squeezed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You're there going, that I bet he wanted that splash to be on the turn of the page and it isn't.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And things like that, where they just said go, fuck it. We're just gonna have to squeeze all this into it's the pages we've got.
SPEAKER_04There's a lot of dialogue and text where you feel like perhaps they wanted a bit more a bit more space. You know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. They try their hardest with it and Yeah, but having written comics where you get your page count cut, and you're like, oh, okay, well, we could do this, but then you lose your nicely balanced you know, Alan Moore could just write forever and he writes like something that unfolds over four pages, and it's like, well you've got to get that down to one page, so it becomes a panel and a bit of explanation, and then and then nothing's quite where you wanted it to be, and and you know. Yeah, I can imagine this working really well as a six issue, but for whatever reason they went four, which feels really tight.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01For an epic terminator saga.
SPEAKER_04I think what they really get right is they capture the the sort of blankness of the Terminators and then the endoskeletons when you see them. I th I think that stuff looks really good, and Terminators always look really good in fire.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So I like that stuff. I think all the characters look like they're supposed to look. As always, with these things, they tend not to use Arnie as the base level terminator in them because his image rights are are a lot more expensive.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah. Well, I wrote I wrote him into one of my comics, the one that's set in uh LA that's just come out. And the original idea was it's 1970s, so Arnie's on Muscle Beach, and I've got a cyborg from the future. So I just blithely wrote Arnie being a muscle builder and her her sort of and him not knowing what a cyborg was kind of thing, and it was very much no, we slightly can't afford that at cutaway comics. So so that needs to not be Arnold Schwarzenegger. So he became a name on a poster. So so we could have that. Oh, he comes here sometimes. But he's not he's not here today.
SPEAKER_04One of the other things they can't resist is also throwing in Dr. Silberman, who I always thought was Dr. Silverman, but there's a there's a B in that name in this guy. Yeah, yeah. With him basically being insane now, which is uh something we might return to later as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I think it was Silverman, that would be a bit on the nose, wouldn't it? For hanging around with uh robots.
SPEAKER_04It's a fairly slight story. It ticks a lot of boxes if you're a fan in terms of seeing a bit more of these characters, but it's not a comic I would revisit and hold up as, oh, this is the best Terminator comic. And perhaps it works a bit more if you're going into Nuclear Twilight, the comic series that follows it again, which is only another four issues and uh a story sort of crammed in quite tightly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but the fact that they couldn't they had eight issues, but they couldn't quite whatever lead time they were on, they were like, We need to get we need to hire two different people two different teams to get this cranked out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Whereas I'd much rather have seen eight eight issues of Dan Abner telling the telling that story.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And also, as you say, it's perhaps this thing of we need to give them another Terminator film. We also need to give them the future war, because that's what people want to see. And so rather than telling one eight-part series, as you say, they've turned it around quickly with two four-part series that just sort of both feel rushed. Yeah. As you say, one eight-part series telling one cohesive story would probably be more satisfying. But it's not bad, you know. I I had a decent enough time, but you know, I sat there one evening and read through it and was like, oh, an extra bit of Terminator that doesn't suck. So that's always Yeah, yeah. No, no, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's um there were there were times when I was like, yeah, this this feels like he really captures the Terminator 2 vibe.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The sort of the action sequences are really well done. And the voiceover to add to that, obviously you wouldn't have a voiceover during the action on a movie because that would be awful. But in that Batman having a punch up with some cool text over the top kind of uh comic book. I'm doing philosophy while I'm having a punch up kind of vibe. Uh is there anything else you want to say on this comic before we move on? Probably not. I mean, they were all right. You can ask me for my uh ask me for my uh my rating.
SPEAKER_04Well, your rating, you must tell me whether it's a clanger, a banger, or an average meander.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I always I sometimes wish you I guess it's an average meander, but that that sounds like it's a slight system, my friend. It's a slight system, yes. It's like average meander slash banger.
SPEAKER_04An average banger we can go for.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, an average banger.
SPEAKER_04It's solid enough. If you want to see a bit more of these characters, it does the job, it ticks some boxes. But when inevitably somebody's like, we need to make another Terminator film, nobody's gonna go, we should adapt this as the definitive sequel to top.
SPEAKER_01Apart from maybe the idea that they popped loads of there's load, you know, there's lots of weird Terminators through to history.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's quite cool.
SPEAKER_04That is a that is a cool idea.
SPEAKER_01That's like, hey, it turns out a Terminator was Jet the Ripper. Or I don't know whether I don't know whether that was the shittiest thing I could think of off the top of my head. But uh yeah, Terminator in ancient Rome, gladiator terminator. I mean or a Terminator arrives in 19th century, 19th century, is it New York? LA the first one, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, he arrives in sort of 19th century LA and starts killing all the Connors. And no one knows why.
SPEAKER_04Terminator the Sarah Connor Chronicles was broadcast between the 13th of January 2008 and April 10th, 2009. It was created by John Friedman. Now the landscape of television at the time was quite sci-fi heavy. We had things like Fringe, Doctor Who, Battlestar Galactica, Ashes to Ashes, Torchwood, Stargate, Primeval, V, Misfits, Warehouse 13, Capaca, and Doll's House. So genre was all over television, and into it steps this. And I remember it being announced and thinking, this is a bloody exciting thing for the Terminator franchise to do. But just because of my age at the time, I was a bit disappointed that it wasn't the original cast, because of course they're not going to get the original cast. I didn't realise that Edward Furlong was a drug addict and Arnie's too expensive. Because I think for a certain point in my life, and I know a lot of fans felt like this, the Terminator was Arnie, but of course it's not. There's loads of Terminators. They wouldn't all look like that's not how you have an infiltration model by having them all with the same skin. It becomes uh it becomes really difficult. But I watched this at the time and I thought it was okay. I also made a horrendous mistake. There was a mid-season break in season two, and I thought that was the end of the series. And so I didn't really think much about it for years. And then I went back to re-watch it all in Lockdown. I bought the Blu-ray and not only realized A, it's fucking brilliant, but B, I was like, oh, there's a whole other half a season I haven't seen. Wow, what a treat. It was a treat, and much to my disappointment, when it finished on a hell of a cliffhanger. Uh. But there we go. So w how did you when did you first come to the series?
SPEAKER_01I think you just named a load of all the stuff that was contemporary to that. Yeah. And it's weird, it's the era of torrents.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and not having access to all these things because I didn't live with loads of channels and things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And but it was very much so American stuff was very much something you went online and pirated.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And I really ashamed to say that in a way. But it's also it was just but you did. And how did you get access otherwise? Yeah, yeah, otherwise, but it's also it's turned into I think that whole period made them up their game in terms of getting the streamers going, getting people won't pirate it if it's easier to just go and click a button and buy it. And it's turned into me buying them now. I've just bought, you know, I bought the Soricana Chronicles that for this podcast on Amazon and it was money well spent. But I also think like watching them on Torrents on a quite often on a laptop.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It m it meant that there was so many things I didn't prop I sort of watched, but it was a lot more ephemeral.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like I watched them, binge them, and then went, yeah, that was alright. And I think Serra Cono Chronicles, I really enjoyed it, but it didn't make me go, yeah. And I think there was something about watching something in a really good format on a big screen, like a proper television. Yeah. And I it makes me think maybe that's how a lot of young people are living now, because you know, now I'm not as skint as I was when I was younger. I don't do I you know, and I don't pirate things because it's wrong and naughty. But I think my own kids, the amount of times they're like, Oh, you are you have you watched Stranger Things? Oh yeah, I loved it. And then you realise they've watched it on their phone while h or watched it on their laptop while on their phone. Yeah. And I think then maybe they have the same feeling. They'll get to have a really good rewatch of Stranger Things in a few years and properly pay attention. So I think with uh But I think with Sarah Connor Chronicles, I remember I kind of watched it, because for those who don't know, I was a I was I was a journalist full-time for uh entertainment journalist for and I still occasionally do it. But I interviewed Lena Heady for a movie and I can't remember the damn name of it, but it was a very, very f forgettable movie. It was not long after she'd been in Brother's Grim. But I interviewed her she was sort of talking about the sort of ins and outs and the ups and downs of being at her level of the industry, which back then was like, yes, you get a job and it pays well, but then you don't get a job for ages. And she just said, Well, I think I'm alright, because I but I have just had to pay the last of my I had to pay the last, I had to empty my checking account to go to LA to audition for pilot season, but I've got something, it's a sci-fi franchise, and I think that might be alright. So she just got the pilot of what then turned into Sarah Connor Chronicles when I when I interviewed her. And obviously she's not really looked back since because Game of Thrones is I would imagine has set her up for life.
SPEAKER_04So indeed, and obviously she is the first and best actor from Game of Thrones to play Sarah Connor, but you know. Oh god, yeah. Yes. That that was a miscast and a half in Terminator Genesis, but uh you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I'll always throw a little dig in at Terminator Genesis because it's one day I'll watch it all, but I just whenever it was I hired it a few years ago, probably ten years ago. I just was like, I can't be getting on with this vibe at all. It was too silly.
SPEAKER_04I went into the cinema to watch it, and it opens big future war stuff. Terminators look great, and I'm like, okay, I'm in. And the moment any of the characters open their mouths, I was just like, what the fuck is this? Because the dialogue was so just forced. There's a moment where they're like, it's John and Reese has gone, oh, what are you gonna do when the the war's over? And he goes, I'll probably have a cold beer. It's like, what the fuck are you talking about? You're probably gonna die of radiation poisoning. Like it's supposed to be a relentless war. Also, you were like six when the bomb dropped. What do you even know about a cold fucking beer? It just and every line of dialogue and every performance in it just was pitched at a level that I was just like, this is not the the series that I it's not the film I want it to be. But uh fortunately, Sarah Connor Chronicles was.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it really wasn't and and I suddenly when when I heard you were doing this thing, we were gonna do more alien stuff, and then I and as I was doing it, well as I do what can I also do? Suddenly Sarah Connor Chronicles popped in my head. And I was and suddenly I was like, oh fuck. I remember really enjoying that and re-watching it has been absolutely like I liked it when I first watched it, and I was gutted when it got but it was just part of the noise of watching all these millions of things, and it was like it's like Firefly all over again, they've just cancelled a good show, they didn't they didn't give it enough love. It's a it's a weird period of weird period of TV history, but this time I absolutely like appreciated it s even more. Like it's just brilliant. Yeah. And the fact that it's got a connecting storyline, it kind of reminded me of I don't know, X-Files, but and Fringe, when Fringe, they still have this, we've got to have story of the week, and then they gradually go, Don't tell them we're not doing story of the week anymore. And and you're there, and you almost dis No, I remember watching because I I binged Fringe in much the same way, and I was like, I was always disappointed when they went, you kind of knew at the beginning, like, this is a story of the week, we've been told we've got to do these as well. And you're like, no, just do the just do the ongoing story. And I just recently did that with X-Files. I bet that he found a list on the internet because I didn't watch I watched the X-Files on and off, but I just went, I found this list of all the ones that are to do with the lore, the alien stuff, and watching those and skipping all the ones of the week is just a really good viewing experience. Well, you send me that list. I'd like to get it. Yeah, well, I I find it. I think it's just Reddit, but yeah, there's yeah, and it's just brilliant to to like go all the way through the like ten seasons, and you realise that's what they really wanted to be doing. And same with Fringe when they had the parallel universe stuff. Because it starts off as oh, it's just the X-Files, and then they hit on this pay-der of the parallel universe, and that's all for me, that's all I wanted to watch then.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And with the Sarah Connor Chronicles, they really know what they're doing, so they don't really have they don't really have sort of episode of the week episodes, adventure of the week episodes, even. They may be, you could probably watch it and go, oh, this is the peril for this week, but they're top and tailed.
SPEAKER_04There'll be a story.
SPEAKER_01So I'm thinking early on there's that one where John goes into the military academy to sort of say And I think that's again, that's like early on, a bit like Refringe when they're like they're still doing what they did in writers' rooms in those days. Yeah with we need a precinct, we need we need returning characters, and we need we need a story every week. But they do slowly start getting out of that.
SPEAKER_04But even in that episode, it's still you're flashing forward to the war, so you're learning more about Derek and his relationship with his brother and in turn John relations relationship with soldiers and things like that. So it is setting up more for the series. But if you're showing it to a studio exec, you can go, yeah, no, that's the beginning, middle, end of of the uh of that story. I think I don't lament the this I well actually no, I lament the loss of this sort of style of storytelling because A, they made more episodes, and so you got deeper into like the characters.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well I was gonna say it's like oh it got cancelled after two seasons, and like nowadays that'd be like, oh so what, they only made 16 episodes? Yeah, no, they made 31 hours. Yeah. And it's like that's like five seasons of modern TV.
SPEAKER_04And it does allow for slightly more experimental things, and it's also like now you mentioned Fringe. I remember watching Fringe, and there was probably three seasons of it at the time, and some and people said to me, You have to get through the first season, which was 24 episodes, and now people wouldn't make it past episode one if they they weren't that into it. And so it was that thing of like and when you get to that 24th episode, you go, Oh wow, so this is where this is going. And uh it it becomes brilliant, and by the you know, the second and I think the third series, there's still episodes of the week, and then by the end of it, you've got 12 episodes a year, and they're all arc-heavy. And I think you know, it was television sort of learning to tell longer form stories as we as they broke out of that traditional sort of syndication model of we need to make X amount of episodes so we can show again and again and again, and anybody can jump into it. And I think I do wonder whether this show was a victim of piracy, and like I'm guilty of pirating it, as are you, but I think it was just that time because things weren't available, people pirated them and ratings plummeted or you know they didn't get the the ratings they wanted in at different territories and things like that and so things got cancelled.
SPEAKER_01Yeah it took them it took them so long to cop onto the fact that you know even when the Mandalorian came out and how many millions of years later was that they didn't go I think we need to release this in all territories simultaneously they went nah leave it six months what six months fucking idiots and it was the most pirated show in history as a result. It's like just release it everywhere you twats and we'll buy it because it's it's it's it's a it's we don't want our computers full of viruses. No and oh I've just downloaded something and it's got Spanish subtitles massive across the middle or it starts pixelated. It was not a great way to watch TV.
SPEAKER_04No absolutely do you think this was a good move for the franchise then uh because we've got at this point we've got three movies they're developing salvation and I don't think salvation actually had an impact it was very much like there's a new company looking after Terminator we've got the TV branch and we've got the film branch and both are going to run forever. So do you think this was a good move?
SPEAKER_01There's a really good article that your listeners should get by Alex Godfrey on Empire magazine interview with Josh Friedman I mean I think it's 2024. Looking back like 15 years after cancellation and it's really good he sort of he starts spilling the positives and the negatives and it's it just it it really informs when you watch this watch watch this show because he talks about his cancer which is in the show amazing stuff like that and also his relationship with James Cameron whether James Cameron has watched it or not. But in that he he sort of says I mean it was such a weird period of uh of TV but in that he just sort of says he's uh one of the first things he says is we ignored Terminator 3 and the interviewer sort of says uh were you able to ignore Terminator 3 because it made no sort of cultural impact and he said yeah so because you know we're Terminator fans and Terminator 3 is just ignored it might as well be a comic book because it's just oh this is a this is a little thing that isn't canon in the parlance of nerds it's kind of it isn't it isn't it it's just because all I remember of it is just a big fight in a bus for most of it isn't it the last two films have both retconned the previous films after Terminator 2 so like they they they've done it in universe yeah yeah and yeah it's a fine generic action sci-fi film from that era but it doesn't have any of the magic that makes the first two films. I literally watched it once and the only time I got chills was when the missiles start flying and then the credits roll. Yeah great ending yeah yeah brilliant ending it made me go oh I might watch number four but then that was Salvation but I think in terms of it being a good move I think it was an excellent move the only thing that wasn't a good move was cancelling it because uh you basically as a story engine you as long as you sort of as long as the audience can park it like most people I think were probably all right with it not being the stars because it's TV. A bit like the I've never watched a Highlander TV show but lots of people actually love it don't they? Yeah. And I don't think that has people from the movies in it. And I think Sean Connery's wandering around and it is but it's it was kind of in that it's TV and it's a spin-off and it takes it it takes for granted that you know what happened in Terminator 2 and Terminator 1 and he just builds on it as as you know as backstory and then it just works brilliantly for my money. Absolutely brilliantly I guess I might quibble that Linda you forget how strong Linda Hamilton is. Like Linda Hamilton is w you know Lenaheedy is probably not a Linda Hamilton no like as a but she's still obviously a very good actor.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well what do you think of the casting uh I mean the of the recasting essentially of the two leads I guess I've got no problem with them at all like yeah but I buy Lena Hede especially.
SPEAKER_01I think she's I mean I've I've had a thing for her since that thing about ecstasy. It was like my generation it was like the thing it was on in 1995 that made her an Ian Hart it's called is it called Loved Up? Something like that. So yeah so loved up and it was written by Old Parker who went on to marry Tam went on to marry Tandy Newton. Right. And it was yeah and Peter Cateno who did uh if I'm remembering right it did did Full Monty but yeah but if you'd look at them my god they're so young but yeah it was 1995 because I remember exactly where we were we all watched it over and over again it was it was like a TV movie about ecstasy which we were all taking at the time so it was it was one of those one of those moments but yeah when I remember mentioning that to Lena Hoody when I interviewed her and she just said yeah that always comes up because it is the it is the thing that sort of made you know made her mark you know she wasn't a name at all till then but she's been someone that everyone has known since that m since 1995. So uh you know she's been an established actor ever since then. But how did I get onto that? Yeah so Lena Heady casting always and Thomas is it Thomas Decker? It is yeah yeah he's he's perfectly alright. He could have probably been they could probably have pulled it feels like they could have just pulled anyone off the streets of LA that day which is maybe doing him a disservice.
SPEAKER_04I remember being slightly disappointed by him when I first watch it that he isn't this wisecracking teenager. But he isn't this wisecracking teenager he's been through a very traumatic series of events he's older and he's got the whole weight of everything so he is a lot more serious than the 13 year old.
SPEAKER_01The way he's written it's brilliantly and I think Edward Furlong the the the 12 year old who you just want to slap is alright for the movie but I think if it had carried on I did feel a bit of that in the comic actually I've had enough of this guy always uh having a go at the cops and being being very mature. I think his uh filmography shows that he's uh he's just a sort of uh bog standard actor really kind of good at what he does child actor by the look of it he did lots of voices for dinosaurs in in uh The Land that time forgot whatever it was called that thing with the uh animated dinosaurs back before everything was CGI but yeah he's uh he's perfectly alright but I think the real one that has really really cemented it for me is uh Summer Glau. Yeah because we already as nerds already were nuts for her because of Firefly and Serenity and you could almost say why are you getting it to play basically the same character which is a quirky slightly weird person who's really good at violence but because I remember when I watched it the first time that was the bit that was a bit like this feels a bit like I'm watching her in Serenity and Firefly again. But now there's been a massive you know 15 years drift from that it's not so not so but I just think she's absolutely brilliant and what would have been really good is watching her be the human version in season three and four and onwards.
SPEAKER_04Because we see we see a little bit of that human version in one of the flash forwards but it's very much well it's her at the end of her life her short life. Yeah yeah and it's it it's a shame because you do want to see what she was actually like rather than just being sort of experimented on by Terminators. There was obviously a big furora at the time of casting a young girl as a Terminator but again I come back to this thing of they're infiltration models they're not all going to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger I had this when we did a we did a stage version of Blade Runner sort of as a fringe thing.
SPEAKER_01And I mentioned it's only because I was just going well we've got loads of female actors let's just gender swap some of these and some people just like no because no one will believe that they can be strong. I went no but that unusualness that they've got like you know massive massive really strong skeletons underneath there. Yeah. So that will be that will be fine. But yeah I think maybe there's a bit of that sexism.
SPEAKER_04Girls girls being strong the whole thing of the Arnie model in the first film is a less advanced model so it's bigger and chunkier and you refine and refine and refine until you can do things like this or the ill-named Terminatrix in Terminator 3. Oh god you know I again I no no problem with the Terminator being a woman but weirdly in that one it just felt like oh well that's the only thing we can think of to do.
SPEAKER_01A dominatrix is a Terminator. That's oh god that's very reductive isn't it?
SPEAKER_04Because it's still it's still the era of the lad mag so she's got to be dressed in all in purple leather to be a sort of anti arnie but also she can grow her tits and things like that and it's just Oh god I'd forgotten about all that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I must say Sarah Connor Chronicles not to let it off the hook does have a little bit of she's walking around in her pants. Yeah. Not to be a hypocrite part of me goes she's walking around in her pants awesome and then uh part of me's also going that feels gratuitous.
SPEAKER_04Yeah and and the male gaze but uh but I have a male gaze there is but also it's about John's reaction to that and her relationship with John which it does make sense story wise a lot of the time when they do it yeah but also it's it's it's one of the complex I mean there's so many cool complex ideas which when you read this Empire interview really it really crystallises them.
SPEAKER_01But one of the one of the main things is the is the cancer which we'll maybe come on to. But also the main thing is they sort of went well they have the different what they've already done with the first two movies and they ignore number three is they then have then the one of the main things with John is how confusing it is to be in love with a Terminator. Yeah and then the thing was to they'd sent that to they'd created that Terminator because he fancies that Terminator as a human. Yeah and that was going to be one of the complicated things going forward like how manipulated does he feel and actually he's younger and and I mean we'll get onto the cliffhanger later and all the potential. Yeah so I thought I thought Cameron was a really good character and and the other Terminator John Henry I didn't know the actor then but I've since watched Fear of the Walking Dead. So have you seen Fear of the Walking Dead? I've seen the first four series who who is he in that he's um he's the cowboy Garrett Dillahunt absolutely brilliant wow yeah yeah but he's yeah he's the he's the sort of cowboy character who has a quest to sort of find his lover. Right I would like Fear the Walking Dead better than Walking Dead from the but that's a sidebar. One thing I watching it is it I occasionally went, oh they're just gonna forget about these characters in that way TV series used to do and they don't like her boyfriend comes back into it from the beginning he comes back into it the cop who I was I was looking him up and I was just wondering uh where's he been and he's been doing like a show called The Rookie for like since 2018. So he's alright. And they call him Ellison as well don't they which is another little thing. But yeah calling Cameron and Cameron Josh Friedman is very much I'm very embarrassed by that because he's since obviously worked with James Cameron loads like on the Avatar movies and on and then on Dark Fate and that's another interesting thing is is like he sort of goes through this whole I'm in the writer's room talking about Dark Fate and things keep coming up and I keep thinking we did an episode about that. Doesn't know whether to mention it or not and eventually brings it up and James Cameron and he realizes James Cameron has watched every single episode and they suddenly have this session in front of loads of people when he's like So did you like it? And he's and James Cameron and he's like I'm being and I'm not just asking but I'm in public with the with my fellow writers and he turns out he puts them in three categories like one stuff that really worked two stuff that was ri you did a good job on but obviously you didn't have the budget and then a third category of these are things that you've you've basically done the work for me we should never explore in uh I don't know and he doesn't sort of go into detail about which is which but but watching Sarah Connor Chronicles and going Yeah there's some really cool stuff like I really like the submarine woman going back in time. I really love the idea when they when they the nerd the nerd in me just goes when's you when he says when's your judgment day and they never answer that but the fact that they might be from different futures if you know each other but they're back in time I love that shit. The fact that judgment day could shift and it's almost like I mean you have this in Terminate Zero it's almost like you're going back in time but your pr your reality will always be this awful reality so but what you're doing is is at least creating a branch that's not that's going to be good for everyone in it. Which is quite depressing in a way. So it's almost like we need to do something that just makes our reality alright.
SPEAKER_04The nuclear war we can't stop it but uh I think it's such a rich show and as you say the n it's an ensemble show they never forget about these characters. Everybody who's it there's nobody that goes nowhere. Like they all have their stories and their evolution over the course of the show you know be it the cop who ends up working for this other T 1000 who's taken the form of somebody who's got a daughter and these there's these different factions so you've got John and Sarah with Derek Reese just trying to keep John alive. Then you've got Derek's girlfriend the submarine woman you called her I've forgotten the character's name who is actually who has actually come back she's run away from the war she's worried that John Connor in the future is using too many Terminators or too much metal as she says in the resistance so she's come back to try and stop that. Then you've got this other faction of Terminators led by Well Shirley Manson Shirley Manson yeah from garbage yeah yeah she's leading what seems like a resisting group of Terminators who are anti-Skynet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah well we have the hint in the episode where they I mean don't know how many spoilers for anyone who's listening to this spoil away spoil away but uh but yeah I'd say anyone who hasn't watched this show go and uh go and buy it on Amazon because it's not very much money for 31 hours of top quality sci-fi but for those of you who don't mind being spoiled but it's it's the they have that brilliant episode which is very tantalising when they when they do go into a bit of future war and I think that's maybe the balance is you show the future war but you don't set it in the future war. You you sort of show occasional vignettes of it so I love the bit when they're in the submarine and you get and you focus on that team. That's brilliant and the and the Shirley Manson character comes in and says I say no and you realise that they're in some sort of negotiations with John Conner. Yeah and reading ahead to what was supposed to be happening to the John Conner that's in the future is that part of that is the Shirley Manson character in that starts that that's kind of where it starts and that's why he persuades them to go back in time.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_01So it's sort of uh timey whimey all mixed up but I mean yeah there's there's quite a lot of different facets to uh talk about and the cancers particularly I didn't realise till I read this thing that Josh Friedman had been told yes he'd been green lit to write the pilot and that's as far as the project had got and then he was diagnosed at 36 with with kidney cancer and had to have a kidney out and that sort of knocked him for six and he went into therapy and said I don't think I could do something bullshit like write like write a terminator. I don't I maybe I want to do more with my life kind of having that kind of thing but then he sort of was persuaded well this is your job this is what you do and you do love this. This is what life's about and then he went and also writing is a way of processing stuff so he gave Sarah cancer and then he loved the idea oh she she's got cancer but she hasn't got cancer yet and then she skips just knowing past skips forward past her death which is again for a nerd brain delicious tiny whiminess which I absolutely loved oh you're dead you died of cancer what well cancer obviously you haven't got yet because because that's if you you know so it's sort of that that sort of stuff's really cool as well. He he talks about the first he talks about the first script he wrote and it this it the first yeah the first sentence of the show I ever typed was was Sarah Connor's voiceover which we didn't make it into the pilot I think because it's quite it's quite grim but it was I will die I would die and so will you Death gives no man a pass and that was the opening of the pilot script which eventually got rewritten but that was because the cancer was so in his in real life was so overwhelmingly part of his life and it was it was kind of overwhelmingly part of Sarah Connor's thing going forward as well.
SPEAKER_04It's such a good idea and then when John's like oh well is it are we getting this from the Terminators? Is it their power source? Is it being around Summer Glau's character that is doing this again it's the texture of levels there's so many strands and it's a brutal brutal show lots of people die lots of people you care about die lots of like the the whole strand with John's girlfriend is quite harrowing in a way because they set up this girl he meets at school and it ends up that she's from the future sent there to sort of trap him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah she's almost a child soldier isn't she's being groomed.
SPEAKER_04But then she's been double crossed by the submarine lady who's like we'll get Summer Glau's character to kill you and then John will hate Terminators and that will stop him using loads of them within the resistance. And then she ends up getting killed is dark stuff but like earned it's not dark for the sake of being dark. It's that by any means necessary thing to try and win this war that but everybody's fighting in slightly different ways.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I mean one of the I mean this I I think I said when I was watching it to you there's only one episode which I felt was a bit oh this is every episode I thought was absolutely brilliant and I was gripped and there was one I can't remember which it was now which I remember thinking well this is this is a little bit I think it's yeah I think it's the one where she's hallucinating a guy in the back of a truck who's already dead. Right yeah and I just remember thinking this feels like padding like we know he's not real you can't do you can't be in one floor of the cooker's nest for a whole episode over yeah that's the one and even then a it was just 45 minutes and it was all good but it also the information that was generated by the episode was absolutely fucking brilliant because it was you know about the tracker and stuff like that. So even the most average episode of it was still still very good. Yeah but it really delivered for the budget they had it really delivers I guess 1984 style Terminator. Yeah like they have that brilliant massacre in Mexico of the police station which obviously makes you think of the massacre in Terminator at the police station and that's that's so brutal like good people get killed get cut down in Terminator quite quite regular and that's a you know that trip to Mexico is absolutely brilliant. But nothing's just in its own one episode bubble everything feeds into everything else and what they do with a boyfriend's wife her ex-boyfriend's wife is like people die that you think in other shows they wouldn't die and I think that's all part I think I think I think he gets the essence of for me you're talking about what is the essence of Terminator. I think he gets the essence of Terminator he visits the future war but in flashbacks and flash forwards and I you know much like much like they did in the movies so we see it but it's tantalizing and but then the in the stuff that's going on in the present's just you know it's chain link fences the iconography of Terminator it's it's it's always back alleys full of trash it's chain linked fences it's people you know there's peop people are never just like running around going pew pew pew in Terminator. They're usually holding an arm because they've been shot and they're bloody and beaten and they're still trying to stagger on and get away from this damn thing. And so it captures that brilliantly and then we got Shirley Manson in the middle of it which I think sh I remember her not being I think because she was Shirley Manson the rock star I think I remember at the time people being a some people being a bit down on her. People are so conservative and stuck in their ways aren't they?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's like oh you can't do another thing you're a rock star. But there's a brilliant story about how she got the she's friends with Josh Friedman. Right and and and she loves Terminator. And he said well why don't you try Auditioning, we've got this character you know who needs to be weird and isn't very human, so maybe the fact you're not an actor and you're Shirley Manson the rock star might feed well into it. And then she did the audition and she was terrible. And the head of Warner's said, Well, she you know, that's a shame, but she's not getting this part. But because she was Shirley Manson the rock star, they'd sort of agreed to see her again anyway. So Josh just said, Well, just fuck it. Ignore everything I've told you, just be Shirley Manson. You are you no, you have got a personality, just come in, and apparently she came in and she stamped her foot and then started doing the scene and blew them all away, and then she just got up and stormed out, thinking she'd fucked it, and they were all blown away. And it turned and they went, Well, go and get her back and tell her she's got the part. And it turned out not only that morning she'd done a terrible audition, she'd then had a call from her record label saying she was dropped. Quite and then she'd gone on to do this audition, which is just amazing. What a day. What a day in the life of Shirley Manson. And I think I think she's really good casting because she's very left field and she's uh very odd.
SPEAKER_04I hadn't even realised it was her, to be honest. I just I just assumed it was another I'd recognized her face, but I just thought, well, she's been the.
SPEAKER_01I guess again, because I'm a bit older than you, it's very much a Gen X created show, this, isn't it? It's uh yeah, so Shirley Manson from Garbage, who's very much that kind of era of all the people I went to see T2 with in the early 90s, that Garbage was one of those bands.
SPEAKER_04How does the show utilise time travel?
SPEAKER_01I rewatched Twelve Monkeys, the movie the other day. Which was a lot slighter, I think, than I remembered it being. But I think in a similar way, and I mentioned the I mentioned the the 12 Monkeys TV series, which is one of those things I wouldn't recommend to anyone because it's very slight, but I also loved it. So I would recommend it to you if you like time travel, go and watch the 12 Monkeys six go and have a binge on uh Netflix or whatever it is these days. But it in a similar kind of way, in that it doesn't get too complicated, it doesn't go moffat.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It it has it has stuff that you can follow. And I think it also like I really like the setup in the pilot, like the whole. Oh, they're in the nineties, well that's weird. Are they gonna set it in the nineties the whole time? And oh no, they find a way of getting them into a bank and then everyone fast forwards to present day, which was 2009 at the time, and that's really good, and it's and it's and it's kind of light touch with the with the with the time travel. But then it's kind of there, like you have and I think like I mentioned earlier, it's I really like the fact that it starts getting into which reality are people from. Is submarine lady from the same they know each other, but did they are they from a future where one diverged from the other?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like they don't you know, and and I th and I like that sort of ambiguity and that idea. And I guess that's what fed into Dark Fate was you know, ultimately John Connor's not important anymore, but you know, the mantle has passed onto a different guy. That's I mean that's why I find that movie quite frustrating, because it's a bit forgettable as a movie, but it's got that really good nerdy sci-fi shift, which I just thought was brilliant, but I I don't know, I don't think they should have killed John Connor still still as a young man right at the beginning. I think that was just too much. Fair.
SPEAKER_04In terms of the use of the of time travel, obviously that leads us on to the final two-parter, the end of series two, where it really sets up the possibilities of alternative timelines because essentially John is time travels into the future, into the future war with Shirley Manson's character, and in this future, Summer Glau's character is still a human, Derek and Kyle Reese are there, and nobody's heard of John Connor at all, but the war is still going, and it sort of sets up that Kyle is the leader of the resistance, I think. Then the show is to never continue.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, it's very frustrating. But I think what it is, it's it still leaves room that he's going to become the John Connor that the world needs. He's just 15, so it in a way it's given him extra life. Yeah. So he's skipped he skipped 30 years, so I guess as he grows older, everything he knows he'll become the John Connor. And I think the intention was that there was going to be a parallel parallel sort of present-day Sarah Connor stuff, and then future war shenanigans going on, and then they would sort of pass between each other a little bit. Things that happened to people in the past, like apparently um Shirley Manson's daughter character was gonna be a grown-up in the in season three. So you'd almost imagine maybe sh she'd remember stuff as a child that would happen in those storylines, and then that would feed into I mean, part of me wonders if it might have got really tangled, but then we'll never know. I mean, I'm not gonna criticise it for something that never got made, because they seem to do such a damn good job of really, really working out. I mean, one of the best things about sort of that final two-parter was killing Derek and that whole the whole, oh here's Kyle's grave, and it seems obvious when it happens, but but it's a brilliant sort of top and tail is and then he's buried in the same same grave by the end of the two-parter. It's absolutely brilliant. And then you get then they all pop up and they're all alive again.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But earlier versions, and that's just brilliant as well. So it's uh yeah, it was just oh my god, I want to watch that. And I can't believe there hasn't been spin-off material like utilising it, to be honest.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I'm surprised there isn't a comic series that just sort of goes, This is what season three would be. But I guess, you know, when your lead creative is working in Hollywood and stuff like that, it's the sort of thing that perhaps he might do in retirement for a few extra quid. But I can't, you know, he's been very busy since finishing the show, so I guess it just wasn't to be. And also just the mess that Terminator's in, it's constantly got new owners who are doing new things and rebooting that perhaps they they just don't want to be associated with this perceived failure of a show.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well I think with the money that you've got to stump up to make something to go, will there be enough people who want to pick up a 15-year-old storyline? Yeah. Or could you just make the same amount of money more more uh reliably by doing a soft reboot. Yeah. Again. Or just don't bother.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like, because it's they've squeezed a teabag of Terminator, like they have Alien too much, I think. Like even the Alien Earth I'd I had high hopes for. And I think it's just teabag squeezing. I enjoyed Alien Earth. I enjoyed it to start with, and now I just think there's too many aliens in it. If we get into the uh get into the a sidebar about the what the quintessential alien is, it's it's a it's a cold, hard universe without much life in it, apart from Earth and very occasionally on distant planets till we find other things. But they've they've sort of given it this there's a million life forms, and I don't like that. And it's and even further than that is when you've got your almost heading into Star Trek territory with the predator stuff where where you've got humanoid aliens wandering around. I don't like that at all. But anyway, that is very much a sidebar. But but Sarah Cana Chronicles is like the it's the great I mean at least Firefly, you got a sort of movie to end it. And there was there were thoughts of maybe there'd be a movie of this, but yeah. Obviously Salvation came along. And it is I could I don't know. All the time I was watching it, I was just going, oh God, you could maybe you could do an audio, like get Lena Hede and everyone in and do it as an audio. Sounds like an expensive audio. It would be an expensive audio, but but if uh Yeah. Or get people get sound aliks. Yeah. And just, you know, because it one thing we've learned is it doesn't matter who plays these characters, because the it's the characters that are important.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01We don't have to have Linda Hamilton, we don't have to have Lena Heady. Yeah. We certainly don't have to have Thomas Jecker. It could just be anybody. We could tell these stories again or someone write a novel or something. There's so much brilliant potential there, but I guess it's I guess it's just gonna be frustratingly always an unseen parallel universe.
SPEAKER_04Never say never. I I recently covered a Millennium comic on this, and who would have thought that 25 odd years later or whatever it was after Millennium was cancelled that somebody would do a follow-up comic. So Never Say Never.
SPEAKER_01How much do you have to have watched Millennium to understand the comic?
SPEAKER_04I understood it, and I've only seen about four episodes of Millennium, so Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's a weird thing. I mean, I'm just looking at my bookshelf now. I've got all the expanse comics that have come out um from Boom, and they are absolutely brilliant, and you're just there going, This is so well written. And and why the hell did they cancel that show? Like all the shit that gets made.
SPEAKER_04It's a great shame, but I feel like the show was a victim of, as I said, torrenting. The first season, I think, was cut short because of writer's strikes and so Yeah, the same writer's strike that was affecting salvation, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But yeah, so yeah, so that they got cut from ten apps to eight. But then, you know, they got I don't know. But yeah, because it was network, it was like a really it wasn't an expensive network show. They were given the same budget as in a bit like Doctor Who, they were given the same budget as a drama that doesn't have any special effects in it. And they were trying to make something in the Terminator universe. So what they do is just amazing. I mean, it really holds up so well 15 years later.
SPEAKER_04In terms of the production values, it's interesting because like you can tell the Terminator a CG, but in the same way that you can tell the Cylons and the reboot of Star Galactic.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly what it reminded me of, yeah.
SPEAKER_04But they the Terminator still look menacing and scary and they work. I also think on the DVD, there's a few making of documentaries, and they talk about that first flash forward episode where it's Derek Reese basically being captured by Terminators, and they were like, We were s we didn't think we could pull off the future war stuff, and then they decide to do it. They have this big episode, and last minute they go, we can't afford it. And so they do this smaller thing, which is essentially set in a house and on a you know, piles of rubble and things like that, and then it's big CGI stuff, and then they do more and more of it to the point that they they're obviously learning how to make the show and make it bigger with the with the amount of money they've got. So you go for considering they couldn't figure out how to do it in season one, to suddenly go, well, season three, we're gonna set 50% of it in the future war, and we think we've figured out a way to do it, it is really great. And it's the show had so much ambition, be it through the storytelling, be it through the visual effects and things like that. But I just that third season of it, just like it's it's a crime. It's a crime. I don't care who hears it.
SPEAKER_01But he well, it's al it's always topping polls along with Firefly of things that Fox should be ashamed of cancelling. Yeah. And there was a campaign at the time because apparently he was writing it knowing it was very unlikely to get renewed. Right. And he said so it's almost like he didn't say this in the interview, but in my head, it's like you either go accept defeat and go and go uh right. I'm gonna for the sake of the fans, I'm gonna make sure it's a self-contained story. But I think he took the other thing, which is I will tell a I will tell a story and end on a cliffhanger that maybe, just maybe, one of those bastards will go, I want to see what happens next. And and you know, and he went, and I think that was the right thing to do, was go for that, leave us constantly going, ah, I'd love to see it fires your imagination. Yeah. Just like what that unseen season would have been like. And it's weird because I don't think the whole thing would have I don't know. Like, if if that had never got commissioned in 2009, would somebody, Netflix or somebody have commissioned Sarah Connor Chronicles in the streaming era, 10 episodes or I mean you could imagine it because Game of Thrones is huge, like the budget is massive.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think there's a possibility that if that that sort of perceived failure wasn't hanging over it, there would have been something in the last year.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely. Well, I guess Alien Earth's got itself made and got itself renewed.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I just think the Terminator franchise has been in such a mess for years, and this show shows how much potential there is in there for storytelling, different types of storytelling, character work, interesting things you can do with Terminators, and it's all there as a blueprint, but inevitably we get every time we get like these weird retreads of oh, dark fate. Well, essentially it's like Terminator 1 and 2, but not as good. Terminator 3 is like Terminator 1 and 2, but not as good. Salvation does another thing, but ultimately didn't resonate with audiences. Genesis is a fucking mess. And you know, they tried to do the time travel stuff but didn't take a leap from the Sarah Connor Chronicles book. So it's just like it's all here, and there are you could pick like one of the plot lines from this and turn it into a two-hour movie and have a corker of a Terminator movie, but for whatever reason, like this is this is the bit that is overlooked, and it's such a crying shame.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh, I'm gutted all over again. Sorry, to make you relive the tragedy. Well, it's it's weird. It wasn't a huge trauma back in 2009, it was just oh that's a real shame. But now I really appreciate how it's in a weird era when TV's in shift. And it's if it'd just been a few years later, it would have been a bang, here's ten episodes and an ongoing arc, and then get get it off network and put it on a HBO or something.
SPEAKER_04If it was on a Netflix or something like that, it would have absolutely been their flagship series that they were trying, sci-fi series that they were trying to push at the time, rather than on a network, one of several series they're trying to push, some sci-fi, some others, and it's just how many of these can we churn out and how many people will watch them?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and they uh and it yeah, the the audience wasn't there apparently. But that's because who what who was watching TV back then, actual television?
SPEAKER_04No, exactly, because the first series has really strong ratings, but it is just as the the landscape changes and ratings fall off for a number of shows. You know, Walking Dead started with something like 20 million viewers and ended up with five because the the the landscape what was changing, and I think piracy hurt it, and I think the the lack of access to it outside of America hurt it. Yeah, yeah. We just ended up, you know, not seeing the end of it. Yeah. I feel like we could talk about it all day, but do you have much more you want to say on this right now?
SPEAKER_01I think for the sake of the listeners, I think we've covered all the main bases. It's just an endlessly frustrating, and there must be a massive pool of fans out there who are just like, somebody make it. Make it in some version. It's you know, the it's tantalizing the things they say that they had planned. Yeah. And it's just uh, but yeah, it's I I guess it'll never be able to be made. Certainly not as a TV series with these actors. No. Because too much time has passed. There will well, I think imagine Lena Hede is quite expensive these days. I mean she went from emptying her checking account to land the pilot to Cersei Lannister. So I don't know how you would do it. Maybe a Dirk Mags audio.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Where are you dirk?
SPEAKER_01Well, looking for something to do that's not Neil Gamer.
SPEAKER_04So then we we must rate Terminator the Sarah Chronicles. Is it a clanger, a banger on average, Meander?
SPEAKER_01I think it will come as no surprise to say it's it's a banger. It is a banger for me too. Absolute banger. We was robbed.
SPEAKER_04So just to sort of wrap things up, do you think there's a future for the Terminator franchise and what do you think it is?
SPEAKER_01I would love to see a really good just like I'd love to see a really good alien thing. And I thought maybe we're gonna get out with Alien Earth, but we haven't for my money. We've got something halfway. I'd just love to see people just go, let's just make it again then. Let's let's just go, it's the same story, but you know, let's just break, let's just start it again. Like I think they could do with Alien. Just remake, just remake Alien and take it from there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Any goodwill that the general public had towards Terminator has long dissipated. And I think it proved that with Dark Fate, like pi people just didn't show up because they've been burnt too many times. And fundamentally, the generation, you know, the next generation didn't have their Terminator that made them nostalgic. Like if salvation had been a huge hit, then you know, maybe they'd be going back to the cinemas again, going, Oh yeah, do you remember that amazing film of Christian Bale? But it just wasn't to be. So I I think film-wise, I think it probably I know James Cameron said he's been developing an idea, but it's more to do with AI and less to do with endoskeletons. And I just think I suspect that that might end up being quite a good movie, but'll have very little to do with Terminator, and at that point, why do it? I think it's probably somebody like Blumhouse going back to basics.
SPEAKER_01You could even have Linda Hamilton in it in a similar way to Dark Fate, going, I thought this had stopped finally, but it hasn't. But you could you could have that kind of thing where like even kill her in the first one, do a Harrison Ford Force Awakens, finally she's a piece and they've set they've started the cycle again. That would that would work. Do do like Dark Fate, but do do a new Terminator one.
SPEAKER_04Ian, thanks for joining me today to talk about the expanded universe of Terminator. Is there anything you want to plug and where can people find you online?
SPEAKER_01Well, I guess I'm just online uh but in a sort of non-commercial way, so don't bother coming and looking there. But I've I've got a audio drama called The Hungry Moon, which is you can buy via 5064 Productions, or we've just got distribution through B7 Enterprises, so you can buy it on their Audio Terrier app and website as well, and that stars Louise Jameson and Peter Davison and Mina Ranois and Gemma Moore and Other Miss People. Yeah, no, that's it. Uh well, lots of other people in it as well. That's a folk horror, and then obviously my comics uh cutaway comics. The final part of Gods and Monsters will be out. Probably not this year, but soon. But it's coming, it's coming.
SPEAKER_02It'll be here before the next Terminator film.
SPEAKER_01It hopefully it'll if if not by Gallifrey. I think hopefully by Gallifrey 2027. Quite nice. Like the final big volume will be out. But if not, it'll be sometime after that. But yeah, we're just doing the whole thing as a big volume, wrapping it all up. Because comics are expensive. Yeah. But we are we are, you know, the script's nearly finished. It's just getting an artist, finding time for him and all the million of things that go into making comics. Yeah. But yeah, yeah, and uh and other than that, I'm writing Irish Wildtime and Commando and various pictures for television, which aren't things to be plugged. So probably never see the light of day.
SPEAKER_04Amazing. Well, as I said, thank you so much for for joining me today. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as it helps people to find the pod. Look for Too Hot for TV on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at TooHotTheNumber4 Pod. That's Too Hot the number four pod for the latest updates and additional content. Next time I'll be joined by Rob from the Doctor Who Show, and we're going to be looking at the expanded universe of Indiana Jones. But until then, I've been Dylan. I've been Ian. And this has been Too Hot for TV.
SPEAKER_01So you just asked me to read Cybernetic Dawn, didn't you?
SPEAKER_04No, I should did you just read Cybernetic Dawn? I did just read Cybernetic Dawn. Okay, well don't you worry, I'll fill in the gaps.
SPEAKER_01So I did start reading the other one as well, but I didn't not not not with an eye on thinking about it.