BONUS EPISODE | Beyond the Episode: A Live Conversation with Our Ep. 3 Guests

BAMMM is a documentary-style podcast exploring the lives of Black women through story, theory, and cultural critique.

In this special live episode, we go deeper into Episode 3:
 “What You Carry Can Break You — The Refusal.”

Together, we unpack what it means to be shaped by systems that reward self-erasure — and how many Black women learn early to suppress their needs, their truth, and their voice in order to survive.

But what happens when survival requires you to leave yourself behind?
 And what does it actually cost to belong?

We also explore:

• How the refusal of the call to explore our inner calling can sometims feel like a survival strategy
• Why black, women’s suppression is often mistaken for strength
• The tension between belonging and self-trust, specifically for black women
• What it looks like to return to yourself on your own terms
• And why so many Black women are beginning to question the identities they were taught to perform

If you’d like the full visual experience of this conversation — including audience interaction and the communal energy of the live discussion — you can also watch this episode on YouTube on the channel @MikailaUnmuted and at the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utOL8dHEaYI  

Join the conversation on TikTok: @MikailaUnmuted

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

All right. We are live. Let's dive in. We started one minute early. I, if you see me looking up to the right, this is for the audience because I already told the guests. Yeah, I'm just making sure. Okay, we are live. Fabulous. Hello, everyone. Hello. Welcome to this YouTube Live. My name is Michaela Brown, and I am the host of the podcast, Michaela Unmuted. And this season is called Beyond a Mammy Mule and Maid. And the reason why it's called that is because in these episodes, I explore the lives, the inner journeys, and the identities of Black women specifically, especially having them tell their own story outside of every other societal expectation, familial obligation. It's Black women ostensibly telling their story. I have two guests today. What we're going to be focusing on is episode three. If you haven't heard the episode yet, absolutely no problem. But if you're interested after hearing this live, the episode is available on all podcast platforms. What you will see as we talk to these two guests, there are common themes in this episode, and they are really around ideas or stories of suppression and survival and being of service first to others and then yourselves. We, as Black women, very much know that we are celebrated for our overwork and our output. Even when we think of people like Beyonce, one of the things we love about her is her perfectionism and her work ethic. And so a lot of the Black women that we see in popular culture are Black women who work so much. What I've really loved this past week and been inspired by was Megan the Stallion taking a break from Broadway early, also going dark. I think she's a beautiful model for Black women, overperforming Black women, successful Black women, that respite is okay, rest is okay, taking care of yourself and your heart is okay. And you will be similarly inspired by the two guests that I have today. If you've never listened to a podcast episode or done a YouTube live or gone to one of my YouTube lives, let me give you a little background. So I am telling the story of black women using the framework of Joseph Campbell's hero's journey. If you've never heard of him, he's a mythologist who basically studied hero stories from all over the world and he found the common thread and he broke it up into steps that almost every superhero goes through. These two women in front of you are superheroes who have gone through these steps. And in this episode, we focus on step number three, which is the refusal. When you think about it, every major superhero story, there is a moment when that superhero is called to be bigger than they've ever been before. And their first instinct is wait, hold up. You mean me? No, thank you. But the reality is when you when you're a black woman and you experience this third stage of refusal, it's not only the imposter syndrome within yourself, it's also the expectations of survival that sometimes make your makes your higher calling feel impossible. And so as we listen to the stories of these two beautiful guests who will introduce themselves to you in a moment, we will learn about how they navigated that refusal, pushed past it, and ultimately honored themselves. One last thing before we dive in. Please, please, please use the chat. I'm recording this on my phone. I have my laptop right in front of me. So I will be seeing your comments. We'd love to hear what you're thinking, where you agree, where you disagree. It's all welcomed. And the last thing I'll say is if you hear one thing you absolutely like in this live, please give me a like. If you hear two things, maybe consider subscribing. And if you hear three things, please tell of someone that you love, a friend, a family member, trying to build this community with like-minded black women who feel as impassioned about these topics as I do. So now I'm gonna turn it over to my two beautiful guests so they can introduce themselves and then I'll launch it to some questions. Who wants to go first? Oh, one last thing. You might hear me refer to Michael as mustard because that's my nickname for her. So I am not talking about the condiment. I am 100% talking about her. That's a story for another day, but I probably will call her mustard. So who wants to go first?

SPEAKER_01 4:23

That's a segue.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

You might, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Um is Michelle, aka Mustard. I was gonna mention that. Um, yes, uh I'm a social worker. If you listen to the podcast in my late 20s, uh yeah, she her.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

Thank you for giving your pronouns.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Yes, well, Sandra, she, her pronouns. I'm a what did I say, multidisciplinary storyteller, musician. Um as of next Friday, official graduate of new in my usage for school of the arts. We're done. Like the time is one name yesterday. And yeah, just out here creating, writing, ideating. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

Love it, love it, love it, love it. So, one of the reasons why I loved this episode so very much, you know how as black girls we're always like the inner critic is so loud. And so, one of my inner critics around the podcast is you're you're you're commit, I'm saying that I'm committed to an intersectional story, but it really my intersectionality has really focused mainly on gender and race. And intersectionality, we all know, means so much more than that. And so, what I loved about telling your story is I get to bring in different complexities to black family identity. So, like mustard, you're a member of the LGT LGBTQIA community identifying as queer. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And Lissandra, you shared that you were neurodivergent, you're neurospicy. And so the first question I have for the two of you is how do you think mustard you being queer and Lissandra U being neurodivergent creates a difference in your experience as a black woman, given someone who is more majoritized, someone who identifies as, you know, cis hetero versus someone who identifies as neurotypical. So whoever wants to answer that question first, please go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Yes. Um, also add also queer. And so it's, I think it's a great question. Yes. We didn't, we didn't, yeah. I've not been dating recently too. So I'm like, but there it's still like this othering, or not even an othering, just like a another, I think, divergent way of just like living in the world. And it's funny, I was just talking to catching up with a friend. Um, we're bi-coastal friends now. Um, she lives on the on the West Coast about this as well, and just like even getting through this grad program um on many spectrums with no Adderall, and we made it. But like I feel like so much of it, I mean, it's a gift in so many ways because the systems that can keep us confined, like my brain just does not work that way. So when we're taught, especially as like black women, to make ourselves smaller, just like put on the happy face, put on the smile, like just be polite, do the things. I'm like, no, my brain, I don't know how to fake it. Like, I cannot fit inside those systems that tell me that this is the way that it's supposed to go. Like, I it's it can be like overstimulating, overdrive, just this like I I don't see the world that way. And so I think there's such this, I don't know, like broad strokes of I think of different colors even with the spectrum, like not even just areas of gray, but I'm looking at your your bookshelf, even the shell, like there's the yellows, there's the reds, there's like I'm all over, you I just can't fit inside the boxes that are put around us. Um, and I feel like more so in the last maybe four or five years, I've found more spaces that are kind of like normalizing that. I don't know if that's that's been your experience too, but like it what felt like, oh, I'm just not grasping these concepts. Like undergrad for me was really hard. I forget if I talked about this in the in the um episode, but like undergrad for me was really hard in terms of how my brain worked and coming with a new perspective in grad school. It's been like, oh no, I can advocate for my needs and I can advocate for the just the different ways that my brain functions and even how I process like emotions and live in the world. And yeah, I think that's it's it it's a it's a strange more than it is a hindrance now these days. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:29

Can I also follow a question? So Lissandra, do you think it makes it easier for you to not get boxed in in typical black women identities because your mind can't even default to that?

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah. And it's I it I will say it wasn't always that way. I'd even say like 10 years ago. I don't know if some things were normalized. I don't know if it's just the even the spaces I find myself in online, like substat community being like this rebirth of all the Tumblr girlies. Like it's it's like, oh, okay, we're we're here. We don't have to do it this way. I feel like there's some sort of renaissance, if I will, that I feel like is happening with a lot of black women where we're like, no, we're not these cookie-cutter images. And yeah, I do have like 10 hyphens of hobbies that I can monetize. And okay, I'll drop two and now it's eight. Like we get to reinvent ourselves and play. And I'm noticing that more, I think, in the past like five years in a way that I felt like I had to fit into the boxes like 10 or 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Yeah, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Wow. Shout out to Substack. Uh I love Substack. I will drop mine in the in the yeah. Yeah, can you put it in the chat? Yeah, I'll put my link in the chat.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Yes, please. I want to read your stuff. Um, yeah, so I think what Lassandra said is about like being in a box. I feel like when being queer separates me from whatever's going on in this box. Um, and so I think it we talked about this in our first conversation, Michaela, just being like, oh, there's like the standard, we're like, oh, the black woman next to the strong black man, and like creating this family and doing all this. And I'm like, don't want to marry a man, I don't want any children. So it's like creating a whole new storyline. Um, so like not at all, like I don't even know where the box is. I'm not near that box, but in the box. I'm on a whole different in a different area, which I think is exciting in a way that like it's just I can create whatever type of situation, like I can envision whatever I want, and like I think it opens it up because no one likes being put in a box. Um, but it's exciting to be like, this is what this could look like, just be imagining what I would want for myself and being like, this is nice, like this could be that, or this could not be that. Like, just I think it's it's a lot, it's just very open. And I think someone who may fit in a more stereotypical, like a heteronormative situation, may like feel put in a box and like feel like more pressure to like do things in the way it's supposed to go, in a way that I wouldn't feel that because I'm like, I'm not even I'm not even following any of the rules, the societal rules. So, like it's easy to just do what I want to do and like feel happy and excited to stay in my area.

SPEAKER_03 11:17

I think for me as an exennial, I love hearing you all talk because I think some of this is generational. I don't know if women my age, when they were your age, would feel as free as you do now. And so I think that's also really, really beautiful. Before we dive into some of the differences in your generation, the next thing I want to talk about is religion. It's funny because this podcast has been so divinely ordained talking about religion in the sense that I don't pair guests up, just kind of organically. Every month as I go to edit, I like organically I just know to put two people together. And there were so many beautiful overlaps between the two of you as guests. And the first one was that you both grew up in really religious homes and family. So we just had this conversation where you're divergent, right? You're different from the norm. And when we think about religion, it's so much about obedience, conformity, behavior, um, behavior that is set by an expectation of someone outside of yourself, whether that be God, your pastor, your parents, whatever those things are. I'd love for you all to talk a little bit about how growing up in very traditional religious homes impacted you. And if you think your journey would have been different if you weren't raised in such religious, religious homes.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

I could go for it. Yeah, yeah. Um yeah, I think I guess to answer the part where I think it would be very different. Um if it wasn't if like I didn't grow up very religious, I think coming out would have been a completely different situation. Um even like internally. I think I still am like, oh, like I feel like there's still a little bit of like, dang, like, should I be doing this? Like, and that's not stopping me at this point. I'm just like, it's still just like this ingrained somewhere in me where I'm like thinking about it. Um but that if if I wasn't raised in that way, I I wouldn't be having these like doubts in that sense or these like thoughts. Um which like I'm I'm like, oh I'm I'm here, I'm queer, like this is how I am, it's great. Um, but I think still like there's a tiny part of me that's still like dang, like these people think it's wrong. And so being like these are people like I grew up with and I like care about or they care about me, and being like, they think a part of me is wrong. So like there's just a constant like you know, battle in that sense. Um where I think if they weren't as if it wasn't as strict and like this is these are the rules and this is what needs to happen, th those feelings wouldn't exist. Um, it would just be like, okay, that's it.

SPEAKER_03 14:10

I think it's so interesting when you say that. So I I I identify as heteronormative, cis heter, right? But I went to Catholic school for 12 years, and even now at 47, some of like my purity, like the Puritant ways I think about sex are so derivative of Catholic school. And even though I know better in so many ways, this like it's like a chip they put in you that you can never fully ease out. So I super resonate with this idea of like, even though I'm gonna do my own thing and I believe in who I am, those early teachings stick to you. And I don't know if it's indefinite, like I honestly don't know, but I know I have to catch it in myself more often than not. Like that's the difference now. I I realize that the voice in my head is not mine. Where in the past, I'm like, oh, that's religion, that's not Michaela, right? So I really resonate with that point. Thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Yeah, I feel like mine is kind of similar, and also I'm like, it was strict, and I think because of the way my church was set up, and I don't know, like even how my church like talked about spiritual gifts, like everybody has their gifts, and I was kind of affirmed early on that mine was prophecy, um, which is an interesting one because even the the way we were taught, even in like studying our Bibles, it was always like read your Bible in its proper like literary, cultural, historical context. Like it was they were really strict about that. I think that backfires though, when I'm then growing up, yes, with this kind of conformity of religio of what religiosity looks like, but also with these stories of a Jesus who is very anti-system. Um, I have jokingly told friends, like talked to other friends too where we're like, y'all, Jesus was on the spectrum. Like Jesus is very neurosicy.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

100%.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Anybody gave me a blueprint for not to fit into a box while also trying to put me into a box. It was the Christian church, and I'm just like, yeah, no, I'm gonna flip tables. Like, actually, my anger can look. This is good trouble. Like, this is the good trouble that, yeah, John Lewis was from John Lewis to Jesus, like it is what it is. And so, yeah, it was like trying to break out of the again. I like how you say Michelle, like, I don't even know where the box is. Um, I don't even know if it really exists, if it's just like a placebo that they're calling a box and it's not even really a box, but like it just didn't exist it it two and two weren't fitting together. It's like, here's what's expected of me, but then of the person who's kind of like the center piece of our faith, they're not following the rules. They're actually like bucking at the system and the Pharisees who are telling us to follow the rules. So, like, how can you tell me to imitate this person who is, you know, like throwing the middle fingers basically, well, whips and chains, whatever, like flipping tables in the systems or on all the systems. And so I think even within like my activism work, like Jesus taught me how to be an activist. And so it's kind of like reworking how to I don't know, just re-imagining what religion, not even religiosity looks like, but like spirituality and faith looks like, so that it doesn't fit into those systems. And I already had a blueprint for that, even if culturally being raised in the Bible belt, especially it was like, no, this is what it's supposed to look like. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

Oh, I love those points. And when we think about it, his mama was a gangster, his stepdaddy was a gangster. Like, he comes from a lineage of gangsters. Like the very first time we hear about Jesus is them breaking the mold and not following rules, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:42

So I know Mary's like, hey, go to the go fix this. They ran out of wine. My son can do something about it. Right, right. This party going. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

Even his delivery story, it's like they said to stay safe in one place and be quiet, and they were on the move. Like they literally never like no one in Jesus' story, listen to uh whatever, you know, authority. All right, so it's so interesting listening to you both talk because I think that black women are often rewarded, and I said this in the intro for conforming to the expectations set upon us, and we're also so good at meeting those expectations. And what's so and so the two of you couldn't continue doing what those around you wanted to do and been the best at that, and everyone would have been happy except for the two of you. Another interesting overlap in the episode is that 2018 was a big year for the both of you. Like you both said 2018 separately. So when I was editing that episode, I'm like, they were meant to do this together. So a couple, a couple different things. So, Mustard, you talk about 2018 being your gayest year, which I love for you. Lassandra, like it was kind of the first year that you were like, my body is breaking down. I very much need to stop doing the things that I have been doing. My body is telling me no, even though my mind is saying I can do it. And so then I went to research what was happening in 2018 to see what kind of environment you all like had these revelations.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Yeah, I'm like listening to the astrology of it.

SPEAKER_03 19:06

Right, right. Oh my wish, I wish I should have put these. I can't.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

I will no, I will tell you I know exactly what was going on in astrology. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:15

Because Black Panther came out that year. And I feel like that was such a big year culturally for Black people in America, dressing up and going to watch like it made us an it it introduced Afrofuturism to a lot of people who didn't have the name for it. So it's so interesting that the two of you began to envision a future for yourselves differently when this kind of like futuristic understanding of what Africa and black people and black royalty can mean. But Lessaga, tell us what astrologically was happening in 2018.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

So, yeah, Michelle, I'm curious about your chart. But I know for me, um, 2018, and actually this is kind of full circle because this planet just left um a week or two ago, but 2018, Uranus had just moved into Taurus. Um, and so wherever Taurus falls in your chart, we we could talk about it. Uranus has just moved into Gemini like two weeks ago. Um, but for me, Taurus is in my tenth house, which is like public career, public facing life. And Uranus is a planet of like shaking things up and being like, this isn't working. Let's see what happens if we just we just we just shake it up. Um, and so yeah, I was dealing with hypertension at work and like I this this type of activism is not sustainable. How do I redo things? And yeah, and to come back like full circle now, yeah, it stays there for about seven to eight years to like be in a completely different, like at least the thinking about public work and life, especially finishing this program. I'm like actively applying the jobs. I'm like, or just trying to find clients. It's like, okay, how do I approach this differently in a way that's not gonna lead to the burnout that I had like really, really bad in 2018? Um I totally forgot about Black Panther.

SPEAKER_03 20:55

That was then isn't that amazing? Yeah, what I really love about what you're saying is like the cycle. So the way that Joseph Campbell outlines the hero's journey, it's very linear and it's very like you close it, like it takes your whole life and at the end you get it right, right? Like I'm I'm simplifying what he's saying. But I think what's when we revisit that work, one of the things we have to acknowledge when we modernize it is that life happens in cycles, right? So I kind of love that like 2018 was that beginning of that cycle, and now is this year is the end of it. And I think becoming a hero to yourself, you have to do that over and over and over again. And like you start at the beginning, you work your safe to the end, and then you level up, and then you're back at the beginning again. So I think it's very interesting that you're now at the beginning of a new cycle and what that will mean for you and how you'll work. There's still anxieties, right? Like you're not half as anxious as you were in 2017, but there's still what do I do next? How do I do that? What does it mean for public life? What is my next reinvention that comes with anxieties? And you begin the cycle again, but with greater tools and more experience. Which is awesome.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Yeah. And it's so like part of the body too. Like Taurus is very sensual. And not even just Taurus. So like Taurus, Scorpio, Leo, and Aquarius. So if you have prominent anything in those four, you probably that that's probably what you were feeling since 2018 with Uranus.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Yeah. You're you're speaking another language right now.

SPEAKER_03 22:22

I don't know what you're talking about. Okay, we're not an astral girl noted. Noted. No, no.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Yeah.

unknown 22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Yeah. I don't, I mean, I'm familiar with all those words. Um, I know some of these. Um, and I I don't have any particular relation with the ones you named. Um, so yes. So I don't know what was going on particularly besides that stuff that you just mentioned that sounded magical. Um but for me, I think it was ended up like the end of 2017 was like new and exciting. I don't really remember what went on, but I think someone said online somewhere, like, oh, 2018. And so that's so I was like, ah yes, 2018, 2018. And I just like it was I was really outside. I was like going to different like queer events, I was meeting so many queer people. That's like when I built my queer community, like I still have them. Um, like I was just doing doing the most.

SPEAKER_03 23:24

Um, and you were still living with your religious family at that time, right, Muster?

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Yeah, yeah, I was like living like two lives, so maybe somewhere in the astrology something. Um, but I was I was like going out, doing whatever, then coming back to these people, um, and you know, living it was like a double life, um, truly. Um yeah, but it was it was a good year.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

So picking up on kind of that family life, one of the things that I loved when I interviewed you first, Mustard, was you were raised by a woman that was 46 who who who had who had you when you were 46. And I'd love for you to tell a little bit of your origin story there. But I think what's so powerful is that I think there's gonna I I'm 47, I haven't given up plans on having my own family. I had know a lot, I live in New York, I know a lot of black women in their late 40s, some in their early 50s, starting a family. And I have grappled with this feeling of what will my child miss out on because I didn't have them traditionally younger, right? And one of the first things you ever said to me was your A score. So for those of you who aren't familiar, an A score is your adverse childhood experience score. It's basically a score of like all the trauma you experienced as a child. And that it's from uh from one to ten. Am I correct, Mustard? It's from one to ten. I think it's from one to ten.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

I thought it goes to like twenty or something.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

Oh, does it? I think it's one to ten because my number is eight, and I remember being like, damn, like why is mine at the top? But like, what was your number? What was your number, Mustard? I think you would have done it. It's like zero or one, whatever the lowest number is. And and and you, and you talked a bit to me, and I'd love for you to share this here, especially if there's some black women who are watching this who are gonna have their children untraditionally, how that benefited you. I'd love for you to talk about the story of your mother and your birth mother, but also how you benefited from having a non-traditional mother at you know, Bringsview.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Yeah. Um, well, I my my mom was 46 when I was born. Um, well, she was 45, but then she turned 46 two days later. That's okay.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

Oh, is your birthday? Are your date birthdays two days apart? Yeah. Yeah. Your birthday gift. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Basically, a birthday gift. Um, and so my birth mother, she for whatever reason was unable to take care of me and was like a part of the this family. Um, was like kind of raised by my mom because she's like 20 years younger than her. So my mom kind of raised her. So when she got to being 22 when I was born, she kind of she gave me up. She told she said God, you know, said told her that I was a gift for my mom. And so when I was born, I came straight to the Bronx, straight to my mom, and like that that was home. Um, and so I I don't have an experience with like a young mom, so I don't really know what goes on with the younger parents. Um, but I feel like everything was very much stable. Like she was in her career, like she knew what she was doing. She there was it wasn't a struggle, which I mean, obviously, old uh older adults can struggle still, but I think it's there's definitely she had a handle on things much more than I would imagine someone's younger. Like, if I had a kid right now, uh in my late 20s, I think it wouldn't be the most stable situation. Like, I have a job and like housing and all that, but like it may still be rough. Um, I may you know move around. I I I like the freedom of, you know, maybe I want to switch into a different area of my career where she was like set, locked in, she's locked in her job. She's like, I'm gonna stay here so I retire. Like, that's it. And so seeing that stability and having that stability was very nice. Um, and I think it gives me the confidence that I have where I'm like, I know what's up, like I this is what it is, and that's it. Uh, where other people are like, you know, they're maybe a little more I wanna say questioning, but I guess a little bit insecure in certain uh situations as far as like decision making and things like that, where I feel like it was very clear what she was doing, what next steps she was taking, like what was happening. And so that I feel like that taught me how to like make decisions and be like I can be clear on what I want and like what I should do next, and I can just take those steps because as like an older adult, someone who's more stable, you you know like what you can do, what you can't do. Yeah, and so you're able to be like, I'm gonna do this, and then you're able to do it. Where some people who may be younger, like they want to do things, but like may not be able to because of whatever reasons. Um, and so I think seeing her being like, okay, this is what's happening, and then doing it, I then gained that where I'm just like, I want to do this, and then I do it, and that's it.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

It was beautiful. That isantra, I want to talk a little bit about your childhood, and then we're gonna get into your adult coming into yourself. But one of the things that really resonated me for me with your story, and I think a lot of black women it resonates for, especially academic Black women, is there was domestic violence in your house when you're growing up, and then you ended up working for domestic violence, organizations, and sculptures for years. I think a lot of black women occupationally and definitely academically, like all the black girls I know who have a dissertation. We all talk about how like your dissertation is really yourself. Like you're writing your dissertation about the identity, the parts of your identity that you need to figure out and explore. And so I'd love to talk a bit about how you got drawn into working for domestic violence. And do you to some degree feel like you were trying to save yourself or people like you? Like what was that correlation with your personal connection to domestic violence?

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Oh, yeah, it was definitely connected. Um, so I started working with organ, in fact, got connected to an organization in my undergrad or um, my undergrad university had like a relationship and sexual violence prevention center that was called the RSVP Center for short. And I got connected because of a classmate's experience with domestic violence that she was an older woman, and so it also like triggered some things with my mom. And I was like on the phone with my mom and like crying and thanking her for leaving and just a whole thing. And remember going to um, I had like work study at our campus uh black culture center, and I was like, went to my supervisor and was balling. I was like, this thing happened with my with my uh one of my classmates. He's like, oh, he pointed me to the RSVP center, and then I started, I organized an event with them and then got connected to like their campus tier educator program. So I was that person going to the fraternity of sorority houses, organization meetings, like, here's how we prevent violence on campus, like that person, like do a green dot, which yeah, at the time it was called Green Dot. Um, and then from there got connected to the a local shelter in in the college town that I went to, and then worked there for like three years. And so I think at the time I was like much more explicit, like, yes, this is in direct correlation to what I witnessed growing up and like wanting to make a difference and like yeah, just be on the other side of things and help in any way I can. And then over time, it's yeah, depending on like what the work looked like, of course, it it started to shift and change a bit. Um, and I remember actually again, 2018, Thanksgiving, telling one of my aunts, because I was getting ready to, I was, I wasn't telling them that I was sick, but like getting ready to leave the work and was looking for jobs elsewhere. And I was like, Yeah, I think I'm gonna look for something outside of domestic violence. Like, I don't want to be a poster child for it. Because my family was very much like, this is so full circle, and like everything y'all been through, and now you have this career. And I'm like, I'm sick, like well, I'm like constantly fighting off a flu and like high blood pressure, and they don't know because it's just it's just like you overcame these things. And I was like, there's a way that I can still talk about these issues and also be true to like one of the things that really does fill me up is creating and like making music and writing and having um other ways of telling stories, and it doesn't burn me out in the same way of like just kind of feeling like we're on a hamster wheel, especially with the the administration in 2018, and um this is coming out of some confirmations with the Supreme Court, if folks know in like October of 2018, it was so hectic. And I'm like, I need to rethink my work and and have like have space to imagine that something else is on the other side, and I can't do that here, at least at the time. Like I need to have an imagination. Even for me, I'm I'm in my mid-30s now, but also contemplating like solo family planning and just reminding myself like I have a community and I need to be able to sustain myself mentally, emotionally, so that I can actually, because I want to physically give birth, like yeah, this isn't gonna work. Like the way we're doing things isn't gonna work. Um yeah, so I don't know if that answers the question.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

Yeah, it does. And there's some things I really want to amplify in that. I think that there is goods and good and bad sides to everything. And I think there's a good side that for a lot of black women, the work that we do is so deeply personal and it drives our compassion. I have felt that breakdown in my own life when I focus on fixing other people rather than healing myself. I realize a lot of times when I was helping other communities, I was using it as a distraction. And so when I hear you say, like, I'm still doing that work, but I'm doing that work in a way that is more honoring my strengths and my interests, that's the critical shift. And that's when the burnout happens for a lot of black women. It's that like you can be in service of healing the trauma you experience, but like at the core of it, you need to be in service and healing your trauma. And if you are only focused on healing the trauma of your community and those around you, that's where the breakdown happens. And to me, that's the refusal, the refusal to face yourself, the refusal to honor that you are a victim as much as the victims that you support. And I think in society, there's not often a space for that conversation. And I think because we're seen as strong, like we are a different type of victim.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

That too, yeah. I was I was super capable. Like, I think the first time I learned about like, I don't know, like dissociative disorder, like all kinds of stuff. Um, I might have been doing, have been working with domestic violence regulations for like five years. And it was like, but because of how I was still showing up then, not knowing I'm on somebody's spectrum and still trying to hit these boxes, I'm reaching out my work goals, I'm answering these calls, I'm present for survivors. And meanwhile, like inside my body is decaying because anytime I'm like working, especially working with children, that's when it would like a lot would come up. I'm like, I see so much of myself and these kids who were then coming to me and they're like, I just want my parents to get along. Like, why can't we go home? And I'm just like, oh snap, I don't have a question or like an answer for them because now 11-year-old Lassandra is trying to like meet with this 11-year-old kid, and I don't know that until I'm, you know, away from the work. But yeah, I was I appeared very capable and knowledgeable of the issues, but it just my brain was constantly going and I didn't know that I was constantly like re-traumatizing myself, especially when I was doing like direct service work.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

Yes, yes. I want to shift now into overcoming the refusal, right? And so, Master, can you give some um context around your refusal? And I'm talking specifically about writing that letter, an uh a love letter to a friend and it being intercepted by your family and that absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

So um, I was 12 and I had this crush on one of my friends, and so I wrote a little love poem um where I just wrote a bunch of compliments about her. Uh, I wrote it in my science notebook because like this is like our classwork, we leave it in the classroom. Like we he, you know, our our teacher checks all off our work every day, whatever. I don't have to take it home. So I'm like, I'm gonna write it in this back of this notebook and like leave it there. Um, except the next day he finds it, I suppose, or maybe the night before, I don't know. He found it and he called my house where I was staying with my aunt and uncle um at the time. He called called the house and they didn't answer. It was seven o'clock in the morning. Uh, so he left a voicemail and he was reading the the poem on the voicemail.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

Wait, but can I get some context? Because when I was like prepping the episode, I was like, I should have asked more questions about this. So, like, he's just read was he saying like what was the context of him reading it?

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Like, I don't know what this means, or he was like, You need to be aware of this type of thing. Like, it wasn't like I don't know what this means, because it wasn't like anything like inappropriate. Like, I was just like, Oh, her smile is like sunshine, like, yeah, it was appropriate for my age, it wasn't like something crazy, and he's like, You need to be aware of like what's going on. Because I was writing about a girl, I think he was like, You need to be aware of this. I don't remember like what else he said, but he was kind of like here, like, do what you want with this information, and like reads the poem on the voicemail. Um, and they they were not happy about that. Um, so they were they were like, you know, what's this about? Blah blah blah, like it was a whole thing. And so I was living with them because my mom had a surgery, so she like had to recover, she couldn't take me to school, and so they they were my uncle was kind of like, you know, this is evil, like blah blah blah, like you're you're living like you want to be like this. Like he says all sorts of all manner of things, um, and kind of returned me to my mom. It was kind of like get out and was like, I went back to my mom, right? But I denied all of it. I was like, that wasn't me. Like, I didn't write that in that notebook, it wasn't me. And I even went as far as like because he was like, bring your notebook home, like, let's see it. I like rewrote it in a different handwriting. Wow, and I was like, see, like this isn't even me. Look at the science in the front, look at this in the back, it's not even my handwriting, it's not even me. I don't know who wrote that. And so uh, and then yeah, I stayed in the closet for until 2018, I suppose. Yeah. Um, so yeah, that was quite a while that yeah, that that's my refusal. Where they it didn't go well, thanks to Mr. Science teacher.

SPEAKER_03 38:08

Yeah, I also wonder if he was a female teacher. Like there was a part of me that was like, would a female teacher have handled that more gently? Like I didn't know if it was some toxic masculinity that made because I mean anything could have happened to you. I think that's the thing that made me the most uncomfortable with. If he did not, I mean, was he a family friend? Like, did he know your family well? No one knew this man. So, like, he didn't know what your family would have done through his outing of you and that level of like callous carelessness with the child to me, I found really, really violent. But I think what's so interesting about that story is you have a mom that loved you more than anything else. At one point, you were kidnapped. We might have to tell the kidnapping story because it's giving after school special, but like it is so interesting because so much of the episode is so relatable, and then there's like a kidnapping in the middle. But at one point, her birth mother tries to kidnap her and take her back. But you have this mother that after the kidnapping loves you so much, you are such her prized possession. And she's so grounded, like you said, she's you know, in her 40s, 50s, raising you, like so grounded, so fully evolved. And even in the space of that, this difference, probably because she was so religious, was something that you did not trust her to handle, even though she had handled everything else, which I think is such interesting dissonance, right? Like you technically have the best mom in the world, but you can't come out to her.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

Yeah. Yeah. Uh at the time, I think because she was religious, she was kind of like, this is wrong. But like at that point, I already denied all of it. So she was kind of like, okay, like you didn't do this, like, let's get rid of that poem. And I remember like writing it in the back of my diary, like, no, I'm gonna keep this, I'm gonna keep this for later. So like I rewrote it in like one of my little di so it's I have it somewhere, I'm sure. Uh like I rewrote it because like she she made me throw it out. Um, so like even though she was she didn't believe it was mine, she still was kind of like, throw that away though, like get rid of it. Um, so there was still that. Um, yeah. And then since she passed away when I was 18, um I never came out to her. I think I would have eventually because, like, like you said, she was great, like she loved me down. So I don't think, I don't think whatever her beliefs are, I don't think she would have rejected me over like altogether.

SPEAKER_03 40:28

Do you ever regret not being able to have come out to her?

SPEAKER_02 40:33

Uh no, I think this is a good good place to be like, I think she would have let me down because there's a chance maybe that she would have been like, nah. Yeah. So I'm gonna imagine a world where she she was like down for me and would have accepted everything. Um, so yeah, I I this is okay.

SPEAKER_03 40:50

Yeah, I love that. But I also love that you rewrote the letter twice because that was your own form of resistance and reclamation. Like you wrote rewrote it for them, but you rewrote it again for yourself. So even at 12, you were still honoring that side of yourself.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

Yeah, I'm like, I'm gonna keep this. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

All right. So after the refusal, that for most superheroes, there's this moment where they're like, Man, I gotta do this. I got lightning rods coming out of my hand, I can climb the side of a wall. I just gotta do this. What I think is so interesting for the two of you is that you're getting back in alignment with yourselves. We're very like subtle and soft. So, like for Mustard, you like started, you know, going out, changing your clothes, going out and doing your thing. And then Lissandra, for you is being diagnosed with ADHD, that really like turned around. But those aren't like catastrophic things, but they were catastrophic. Like they were still kind of like small, but then the biggest things in your life. Can you talk about, especially for anyone watching this live, how that transition of like, no, I'm fully gonna own myself now. And maybe even talk about how you own that with your community, like with your friends and family, who you picked to share that with who you didn't, what your process was like.

SPEAKER_01 42:03

I'm trying to think, like for neurosciciness, because I got, yeah, I got my diagnosis in 2022. The biggest thing really was like navigating the workspace because I was a new director um at an organization, and eventually, like within the year, I transitioned out from being full-time director to consulting. Um, so it's like, oh, that's why it's always been hard to do 40 plus hours a week. I was good at it. We were masking, we were making it happen anxiously, but like, oh, I need to have this flexibility in how I work. Um, interesting enough, like I feel like the conversation with at least my mother and like family didn't happen until it's like early 2024. I had gone through a few breakups. Yeah, okay. So no, yeah, they knew, but in terms of just like really having conversations about it um and what that just looks like for me and how it how I've been navigating it, it came out with a deeper conversation with my mom came out um like early 2024. I had a huge breakup and was on the phone with her about it because there were just things about like I think not necessarily repressing emotions, but I mean what's the word, clear sentience? Like I can pick up very easily on it. Yes. But and I think I always had it as a kid, like you, especially like growing up, I feel like this. I'm gonna guess and say that this is a through line with a lot of black families. Like you meet people, it's like you be kind, say hello to everybody, everybody gets a hug. And I was always that kid that was like, I don't want to hug everybody, but I don't get to say why. It's just like there's something here that isn't sitting right. That's the spectrum, too, sometimes. Um, but I was always that kid, and so that happened with the breakup, and I remember like bawling to my mom, I was like, You always make me like suppress my feelings, and you said my feelings were too big and they were. Taking up too much space, and it was just this whole thing of like there's some wisdom in here, and really just like frustrations of like there's wisdom in that knowing and that picking up on energies that like actually keeps me safe from people sometimes, and I don't need to detach from this. And so I think on like a relational level, I started normalizing, like talking about like neurodivergence in relationships once I had that conversation with my mom, even though I had been already been talking about it for two years in workspaces. So it's kind of grown, and then even from there, like it's been helpful talking about it with friends who are like, wait, I think, oh, you said it's this that's a pattern, and that's a symptom, and that's a wait a bit, dude. I might need to talk to somebody too. And now, yeah, it comes to find, you know, you find out you some of your closest friends, it's like, oh, that's how we found each other, and we just didn't know, and we've all been putting on this mask, it's like really high functioning, high achieving. Black girls who are low-key, like really tired and trying to our brains have always been trying to find ways to just do things differently and saying, like all of us having like really interesting relationships with our mothers, too, of just like, oh yeah, the signs were not missed, they were ignored. Um, these days, but yeah, it wasn't small increments. My mom changed that conversation, it shifted a lot.

SPEAKER_03 45:22

I'm thinking now about how much black women mask. So there's a fashion academic intellect named Dario Calmis, who is in New York, and he once wrote an amazing article where he looked at what causes schizophrenia. I know now that name in the DSN has like changed to quite a bit, but when he wrote the article, schizophrenia meant having multiple personalities. And he talks about how most black people within most people who have schizophrenia, they had a childhood where they had a parent that was super giving and then withholding, super giving and then withholding. And so because of that erraticness, the child was forced to split their identities. And he compares this to black Americans in the sense that within white supremacy, white supremacy, there's we love your food, we love your dance, we love your muse, but we hate you, we don't want to give you jobs. We love your hair, we love your hair, but we hate you, we want to wear your hair and claim it as our own. And so that constant back and forth. And so when you were talking, I was thinking about sometimes um being being black in America, but in particular being a black woman can feel like a form of neurodivergence because you do things like masks, because there's ways that you have to you get overstimulated by all the things that are going on in any moment when you're interacting with someone because you're a black and a woman. And so that's that's so interesting to hear you talk about when I hear you talk about your neurospiciness, even though I identify as neurotypical, I relate to it so much. Like I relate to it so much.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

There's a lot, yeah, I think like overlap even just the code switching. Like you don't like as black. I remember talking to somebody and it was a well-meaning white person who's like, Well, if you're code switching, can't you just stop? And I was like, Babes, that's not how it works.

SPEAKER_03 47:12

And also, you don't want that. And also, you don't want that. You don't want me to talk to you the way I want to talk to you.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

At all. You want it, you want me to unintentionally subconsciously switch into the nice white girl. And so, even same, I'm like, I noticed that even in spaces when if I am masking even like any kind of neurodivergence, I'm like, I know the spaces that I have to be really nice and pleasant in, even and it's like, what is the was it get out? I guess the yeah, like get out. I think of leaving like get out when Lake Keith Stanfield's characters kind of pushing through, or uh, who was the the woman when she's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like the woman. Where it's like, I wanna be my like I want the quirks to fly and to be honest about how I'm feeling and also having to read the room like subconsciously and know, like, that's not really allowed in this space. Um, and so yeah, it's been tough. I think it was tough for, and I found again found really good places to talk about it in workplaces for a good two years. I think something about my mom, and I I guess I haven't really sat as much with that, but something about my mom as I'm just talking to you right now, having that conversation two years ago, flipped things where I just I can't fake it as much anymore. It's like where I could even four years ago, like I cannot fake it now.

SPEAKER_03 48:38

And how did she receive it? Is she comfortable with using herself?

SPEAKER_01 48:42

She's I'd say yes and no. She, I was surprised because also my mom's a cancer. Um, so for instance, you know what that means. You know what that means. Like she she actually was just like, oh like it wasn't a because I was just balling. I was like, I've always had these feelings, like I've always just been a really expressive kid, and like you'd shame me for that. And I and yeah, I don't realize I just I was just realizing it with that breakup, how it was impacting relationships, because then I feel like I gotta play small and I gotta, if I'm noticing something, I'm like, oh, I can't tell them that I noticed that their energy shifted because yeah, that's me being dramatic, you know, like me reading in too much to things, me being in grown folks, like any other things. It's just like I can't, but I wanna say something. Yeah, and I need to say something, like I need to be that person that's not just gonna go along with the pleasantries, the nicetries, niceties, but like it's actually gonna say something, like, yo, what's are we gonna talk about it?

SPEAKER_03 49:43

Also, when you're when when you pick up on energy, sometimes it's hard to call it out because it's easy to deny. Like, I've had experience where like I feel like the energy of someone is off, and I tried to like have that conversation and they can say, No, what can I say? No, no, no, I can be your energy, like no, yeah. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

I had a dream about it though. Like you could tell people I had a dream about them. I'm like, you can't lie to me. Yeah, no, I saw that I saw that angel, and then a pro flew by, and so obviously.

SPEAKER_03 50:14

It's so it's so frustrating because I know that like people will be like, you're insane. I actually like it. I'm like, no, you don't, no, you don't.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

I was thinking about that song and then it started playing, and it's not a coincidence.

SPEAKER_03 50:28

Yeah, no, yeah, deeply felt, deeply felt. Thank you. Um, can we talk about you talking about being queer with your family? Because you and I have had offline conversations about your your birth mom and how she accepts that. Like what comes up for you and how you kind of owned your truth with your family.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

Um, well, because I know that they have their feelings about it. I I it's not even my business. I don't they get they can think what they think, they feel how they feel. Um for all they know, I don't know what they know. Honestly, I don't know what they think. I don't know if they know. I didn't tell them, I didn't come out to them. Um, because I it doesn't seem necessary.

SPEAKER_03 51:08

Um can you say more around that, Mustard? Because I think we don't talk, I think there's a badge of honor that's attached to coming out, even when it's unsafe for the person coming out. And so I'd love for you to just contextualize how you've decided within yourself that coming out is not your priority with your family.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

Yeah, well, I they're not priority to me. So that I think that's a major component. I think usually the issue is people are like locked in with their family, they're like, This is my best friend, but then they're hiding this like huge part of themselves, and then it becomes like weird. Um, so like I've definitely I've been rejected when someone I was dating because they're like, You're not outside your family, like I'm not about to be hidden, but I'm like hidden from who? I live alone, I don't see these people, they have no role in my life. So what are you doing? Anyone who sees us is going to know we are together, right? Exactly. So, like, I I don't hang out with my family, I'm not like doing anything, like they're not we're not close, they don't know what's going on in my life, they don't have my address, they don't they don't have information about me. So for them to know who I'm dating, that don't make sense. That don't make sense. You can they don't know what what I'm doing today, they probably don't know what I do for work, like they they might, but um I think there's there's already a level of like they don't have that level of access to me to even know day-to-day things, let alone something that's like personal or something I know they're gonna disagree with. Like, there's no reason I think for the contempt or like any negative negativity truly around it, where I'm like, they don't play a large role in my life anyway. Um, and it it just wouldn't make sense to do that uh for me. But for I did tell my birth mom, um, and she I told her over the phone because I was like going to visit her, and my partner was gonna like hop in to see my hometown, you know, the place where I was born but didn't stay for more than 24 hours. Um, I was like, oh, here I can show you this place, and so I was like, hey, like I have something to tell you. Um, I you can meet my partner, but first I have to tell you my partner is like a woman. Um, and she was just like like on the phone, just like shocked. Um, she was like, I'm not surprised, but I'm disappointed. And I'm like, okay. But then she was also like, Oh, but I'll meet them, and like, sure, like invited us over, made us dinner, and like did all this, but like also has all these, I guess, negative feelings about it at the same time. Um could you tell?

SPEAKER_03 53:39

Could you tell when you I know she was being hospitable, but could you tell that she was uncomfortable while you were no?

SPEAKER_02 53:45

She she didn't act any differently than I think she would have. Um, and maybe it's the same way where I'm like a part of me is like, oof, like is this wrong? Maybe she's having that same thing where she's like, I accept you, but also like I don't know. Um maybe that's deep.

SPEAKER_03 54:04

I just want to amplify that because it's so deep. So what you're what you just said is the dissonance that you feel within yourself might ref be a reflection of the dissonance, like you both might be having that same dissonance who don't judge her for it. That's deep. Yeah, that's deep.

SPEAKER_02 54:17

So I I think it's that because she even was like, Well, how do you reconcile that with like your religious beliefs? I was like, it hasn't been reconciled, like, I don't have an answer for that. Um, and so yeah, so I'm not it wasn't like a huge thing, but we're also not that close. She's it's kind of the same thing where it's like I can tell her and my life will not be upended if she's like, I hate you, like never want to talk to you again. Um, and it's the same with all my other family. So I'm like, I can do this, and they could be like, This is wrong, and I could be like, bye, but also like nothing has changed. Um so there's that. Um, and so yeah, I think she just has that weird thing where she's like, Oh, like I want to be in your life, and blah blah blah, but also like I don't like this part. Um, but it doesn't come up very often because she's not around, and so it doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_03 55:08

So you and I have talked about this offline, but when I was working on the episode, I remember getting very, very angry and having to walk away from my laptop. And I think the reason why it was triggered by your birth mom's response is that I often feel as a black woman that people hold me to a standard that they don't hold themselves to, right? And so, like her being uncomfortable with you being queer is rooted in her being deeply religious, but she also had a child out of wedlock and gave that child up, right? And so, like, I just feel like often as a black woman, when I see what people expect me, I'm like, but you're in a glass house. Like you throwing rocks here. If I throw it back, your whole foundation is fumbling. Like, it's just so I do think that there is such a high standard. And I think part of why I'm triggered, if I'm honest, is because I hold myself to that standard. And sometimes it's just too high and it's so unnecessary and it's not equitable. And like, why do I care what those people think? Because they're not perfect either, right? And I do think we do have a culture, especially black moms, to like tell you what they think, their opinion on everything. And I think what I love about what you're saying, Mustard, is part of healing enough to honor yourself is putting the right amount of importance on the people in your life. And I do think when you're unhealed, do you want to be everything for everybody, especially as a black woman? But part of being a healed black woman is being like, they get 10% and I'm good with that. Like, I'm not gonna be everything to them because they're not giving me everything. Like I'm gonna match your 10 with my 10 versus when I was unhealed, I was giving you 150 to compensate for your 50, right? And so I think that's just like really, really powerful and important. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah. We have about five minutes, we have a hard stop or four minutes. So I want to wrap up. Both of you have come into yourself, your your intersectionality, your identities, you see how their strengths, you see how their benefits. And we talked a little bit earlier that this is almost like a daily choice you have to make, that it's not like I'm healed, I will no longer overgive, I will no longer overwork, I will no longer perform, I will no longer be a perfectionist. Like those things creep in every day. And so I was wondering if you could talk a little bit on your daily practice or your weekly practice or your monthly practice on how you come back to yourself, because you know what it's like to be out of alignment with yourself, and you both fought really hard to get in alignment with yourself. Can we talk a little bit about your maintenance process? Because I think we see life as a movie where it's like once you get to the end, like we got this. And then in reality, the next day you might have to build yourself up all over again. So, can you share with anyone watching how you get back and how you prioritize staying in alignment with yourself?

SPEAKER_01 57:55

A lot of it, oh, I'll try to make it brief. A lot of it is, and this may sound cliche, but I really do spend a lot of time in nature and just like being with the birds. Like it's one of the I see memes all the time where it's like, oh yeah, I went on a walk and the stupid naked tree walk actually did it. Like, yeah, it did I needed to be, and like I needed to hug a tree. Um, that's a big thing, and then just also like having my people and like having my community is really important. And folks that I can be that like not do the I would. I mean, the friend I was just on the phone um FaceTime earlier today, like one of my best friends, and she's another one where you can just sit there and talk about grief, and neither of us is trying to fix it. It's like, is your showing up as irritability today? Yeah, girl. You know, and it it's so having those types of authentic conversations that like don't need fixing. Um, and then having a really robust like dance and music practice is I gotta move it through my body. Like it has to, all the emotions sit somewhere in my body, and we gotta um just move them. I heard an activist back in uh DC, when I used to live in DC, has said that uh twerking supports your rich chakra. The people say it, but that it's then it's it's bound by the drums too. So like just move, like any time I can get to like an Afro-Caribbean, West African dance class, but also just speaking of um Megan and like taking it some time off, like just twerking to some Megan in my in my looking like this. That's care too. So I love it. Very nice.

SPEAKER_02 59:29

I I've recently gone to the do the whole nature stuff. Um, I live around.

SPEAKER_03 59:34

And we're in New York, we all live in New York, and there's nature in New York because some of you are watching and you're like, what? Yes, there's nature in New York.

SPEAKER_01 59:40

I'm going to a bird watching thing this Sunday.

SPEAKER_03 59:42

Like I'll drop the link.

SPEAKER_02 59:44

Yeah, yes. Uh, I live near the botanical garden the in the in the Bronx. Oh, I love it. Like I can walk there. I've walked there. So I walked there the other day, and so I'm enjoying that, but usually just silence will do it for me. I know that's difficult for a lot of people, like neurodivergent people may not, silence is not working, and there's a lot going on. Um, but silence works for me. I I sit in silence if I'm I drive in silence. Um, so if I feel like I'm gonna say dysregulated or I'm like, oh, this person, I I I've overstimulated. I I drove back home today, 30 minutes, silence, and it was just nice. I had speak out my thoughts and I clear my mind, and then it's like I feel great now. So silence just will do it for me.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:29

I love it, I love it. I want to thank you both so much. We touched on maybe 30-40 percent of what was in the episode. So I do really encourage you. If you haven't, just look for Michaela Unmuted on all podcast platforms. This is episode number three. Um, Lissandra, do you want to promote your consultant business, your consultant?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:50

Yeah, if folks are looking for communications consulting, I also do intimacy, coordination, choreography, a little bit of coaching. I don't always do coach because that's like that direct service bit. But in terms of yeah, any kind of creative writing, consulting, communications, call me. I'm Lissandra Janae on like everything, lasandra janae.com and Lassandra Janae on Instagram.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:11

So it um text me your handles and I'll make sure to add to the description underneath this episode. Yeah, perfect. Perfect. Mishi over monster, there's do you want to share anything? You don't have to if you don't want to.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:21

I know there's so many things I I get involved with. Uh I am a photographer. Um, I don't I don't do photography all the time, but I do random events. I did a comedy show like two weeks ago. Um, so my Instagram is msimsphoto. Um, yeah, you can DM me or something if you're looking for photos. I don't update it as much because I they're basically off social media, but I check it sometimes and I I will try to do that. Um, yes, I'm gonna leave it at that.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:52

Amazing, amazing. For those of you who joined, thank you so much for watching it. If you watched it after the live, thank you for checking it out. Uh, Mind Candles Everywhere are Michaela Unmuted. There is a new episode dropping this Wednesday, so please do check that out. And also this episode, I'll release audio on the podcast platform if you want to listen to it while you walk in nature or in silence, whatever you decide. Thank you to everyone for being here. Thanks to thanks to the two of you. I absolutely enjoy you. It was an honor to tell your story, and it was an honor to have this conversation with you today. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Hold on, I'm gonna end the screen. There we go.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:34

Please, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:36

I so appreciate it.