S01E04 | Until the Lion Speaks, the Hunter Is the Hero — The Podcast Origin Story

BAMMM is a documentary-style podcast exploring the lives of Black women through story, theory, and cultural critique.

In this special mid-season episode, Mikaila revisits the conversation that started it all.

Recorded before a single episode of BAMMM existed, this intimate dialogue with her close friend Crystal becomes both a podcast origin story and a deeper exploration of the questions at the heart of this season: What happens when Black women stop organizing their lives around survival? What becomes possible when we release the roles we were taught to perform in order to be loved, safe, or worthy?

Together, they unpack the archetypes of the mammy, the mule, and the maid — exploring how over-functioning, over-giving, perfectionism, emotional labor, and self-abandonment become normalized forms of survival for Black women.

The conversation moves through:

• burnout and rest as resistance
• DEI and the exhaustion of fixing systems that refuse to change
• intuition, healing, and self-trust
• generational trauma and becoming “the ancestor your lineage is praying for”
• the fear of being seen
• and the revolutionary act of centering yourself in a world that taught you not to

At its core, this episode is about reclaiming authorship over your own life. Because until the lion speaks, the hunter will always be the hero.

You can also join the conversation over on YouTube, where Mikaila hosts monthly live episode recaps and community discussions — think Red Table Talk, but centered on the lives, healing, and realities of Black women.

Join the conversation on YouTube & TikTok: @MikailaUnmuted

New episodes drop monthly

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello. Before we begin today's episode, I want to share a little context. What you're about to hear is actually a conversation that took place before I ever recorded a single episode of this podcast. At the time, I didn't know exactly what this show would become. I wasn't thinking yet about Joseph Campbell or the hero's journey or the ways black women moved through their own versions of this archetypal story every day. I didn't yet fully understand the deeper narrative thread that would eventually weave itself into this season. I just knew there was something black women needed to say, and more importantly, something I needed to explore. As this season unfolded, I let the women I interviewed guide me. I let their stories guide me. And honestly, I let my intuition guide me too. Looking back now, I'm so moved by the fact that so many of the core ethos and questions in this conversation remained intact. Even as the podcast itself evolved into something fuller, deeper, and more layered than I could have planned for. And I think that's been one of the greatest lessons of this process for me personally. That beauty can emerge organically, that not everything meaningful has to be tightly controlled to be powerful. That surrender can create something just as strong and sometimes stronger than force. And that has been deeply uncomfortable for me. As a black woman, so much of my identity has been tied to overperforming, over planning, overworking, anticipating every possible outcome before it happens. Controlling every detail has felt like safety. It has felt like survival. So allowing this podcast to unfold in real time while allowing myself to unfold in real time has been part of my healing too. And now, halfway through this season, it felt important to pause and revisit the conversation that started all of this. So here it is. My podcast origin story in many ways. Before the audience, before the hours of taping, before the hours of editing, before the structure, before I fully understood what this was becoming. Just me and my dear friend Crystal having a conversation about rest, healing, fear, identity, and what might become possible when black women finally allow themselves to imagine lives bigger than just survival.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Episode one, first conversation. How are you feeling?

SPEAKER_00 3:22

I'm feeling so nervous, but also excited. It's just something I wanted to do for a really long time, but just never felt ready. So even in the face of my nerves, I do feel ready. So it's this big, like paradoxal hodgepodge, but I'm excited. But nervous too, but more excited.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Yes. That's such a beautiful combination. And like to me, that signals how important this is. Yeah that combination of emotions. Why now? Like, why does it, why do you feel like now is the time you're ready now to do this? That's such a good question.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

I think this podcast is such a natural evolution of my healing process. And I don't think I was ready before. Not ready to be public, not ready to have my words be out in a space that I couldn't control. And there was a lot of healing that I had to do in order to accept that no matter what happens, I'm safe. What I say matters. It doesn't have to resonate or be right for everyone. It might not resonate or be right for me in five years. The perfectionists in me felt I couldn't do a podcast until I had the perfect thing to say to everyone. And I think even the topic of this podcast is addressing that within myself, but also within my community. And so I feel really empowered now to say whatever is my truth in this moment and let the chips lay where they are. And before I felt too fragile, if I'm honest, I felt like any negative reception feedback would annihilate me. And I've gotten to a place in my healing where I'm so rooted in myself that it will hurt. I will be sad and disappointed. Um, but I will ultimately stand in myself and my truth, and that's what matters the most.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

There are so many questions I want to ask you about the origin of the show and how we got here. And we're gonna go there next, but I feel like you're touching on something that's so important here. Can you shed a little bit of light for people listening about what that journey was like for you in getting to the place where you do feel like you can actually show up and press record? Because I feel like that's such a common experience where people have something on their heart that they're so moved to share and put out into the world, but that fear of being rejected is so deep that it keeps them from doing it. What was that transition, that journey like for you?

SPEAKER_00 5:54

I really want to, I really want to amplify you, acknowledging that this is a common common feeling because I feel because we live in such a social media world, there is a perception that it is very easy for people to jump on a mic and scream to the world without any fear of consequence. And I think there is a large percentage of people like me and like those that you just referenced that are kind of hiding in their homes, second guessing themselves. And so for me, I think about my healing as stages. In many ways, this podcast is reflective of the stage I'm in. But the first stage of my healing was really acknowledging the bad things that had happened for me. I think as Black women, resilience is such an important part of our conversation and identity. So there were a lot of ways I never held space for a lot of the trauma I had experienced because I felt like to focus on it would be to distract. And I was so focused on moving forward. So the first stage was really just kind of acknowledging trauma happened. I didn't deserve it. That really sucked. And especially when it happened at the hands of people that I desperately loved and expected to desperately love me back. The second phase of my healing was very much around the space of owning the ways I colluded in my own trauma, the ways that I accepted it, the ways that I abetted it, the ways that I expected it. And I had to take ownership that in the past people treated me poorly through their own pain. I don't even think sometimes it was even about me, but I was just the subject or the projection of what they were going through. And I took it on the chin and I kept my mouth shut and I enabled it and I came back for more, and I never called it out. And so the second phase was really acknowledging, was really around actually forgiving myself for the role I played in my own trauma. This phase feels like once we've cleared up some of that baggage, what fills this space now? And for me, it is a softer life, very boundary, where I'm like protecting my peace, but then also paying that forward. And so this podcast, for me in particular, is a love letter to Black women to give them the opportunity to not only hear people who have done that shot shadow work, but then what comes next? I don't think sometimes we talk about what comes next in our Zeitgeist. It's so much about trauma, gaslighting, all the words that like sing and zag. But then what happens when you acknowledge that? You accept it, but then you choose something different. And so I think because this phase of my life is really an expiration of what could be on the other side of acknowledging trauma, I want to have that conversation out loud. Because I do think so many Black women are coming to that place and space naturally. And community is such a big part. Like we experience trauma in community, we experience healing in community. And I think because for me, trauma felt so like dirty and nasty and uncomfortable. I wanted to do that alone. But in shedding some of that skin, I now desperately want to call in others for the joy and the fun of this new stage. And that's why I feel more ready now. Even in the face of my fear, right? Of what that looks like.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Yeah. And what I'm hearing is like the fear doesn't disappear, but your relationship with it changes.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

It doesn't control me as much. It before it desperately, that voice in my head, you shouldn't do this, you're not gonna be great at it, you're not perfect at this, you're gonna mess it up, was the loudest voice. And there has been a quiet and peace that I've been able to achieve where the possibility of something good. I think so many times we think of the what if is always the worst case scenario. And I think I've stepped into a space in my life where the what is it could be the best case scenario. And before I only held space for the worst.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Yes. I feel like that alone, that piece alone is gonna be medicine for so many people. Like we don't even consider that, that there could be the best case scenario as the what if. That's so powerful.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

I also think most of us don't even appreciate that we're living the what, the, the worst case scenario, even in this idea of being space safe. So when I coach people, they'll say, like, if I do that, then this will happen. And I and I have to hold up a mirror and say, Well, that's happening right now. Like, you think your manager and your coworker will hate you? Well, based on what you're telling me, they hate you now. So you might as well state your piece or create your boundary or push back. But oftentimes we're living the worst case scenario, but we're in such survival mode, we don't even realize that. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

I thought it was so powerful as well. This season of you recognizing like how you were an active part in your trauma and in keeping it alive and how you identify with it. And so I'm curious, like when the inception of this show, the idea of this show came to you, where were you in that phase? Had you just realized that? Had you worked through it already? Where were you when the idea came in?

SPEAKER_00 11:09

So I first started conceiving the idea of this podcast last summer. I'd gotten a week-long silent retreat. It was very much in the Buddhist tradition. And the Buddhist tradition is where you are right now, everything is perfect. Everything is perfect. Like so much of your meditation is appreciating the perfection of this present moment. It was about eight months since the beginning of the genocide/slash holocaust in Palestine. And I was experiencing extreme compassion fatigue. And so going away for a week to do this silent meditation, my intention was to clear my mind to get direction for action and fixing and saving what is my role as a person in the world where things like this are happening. Always have been happening, but really, really aware of it happening right now. Let me go away for a week and get quiet so I can get direction on how to move forward. And it's so funny because this podcast, Beyond a Mammy Mule, are made, I was really leaning into those archetypes when I went on that retreat. I felt very maternal. I'm seeing imagery of children being killed every day. And the maternal instinct in me is I have to do something. As an adult woman in this world, I have to do something. The mule, what work do I need to do? What, how do I jump into this struggle? The maid, I didn't create this problem, but it's my job to fix it. All of those archetypes were really loud for me when I went on this retreat. And then we were silent, but we had facilitators that were lecture giving lectures, giving counseling, and they kept saying, focus on the perfection of this moment. And I was irate. I was so irate in my silence. The first two days, I was so angry because I felt like if I didn't focus on the problem, if I didn't focus on how I'm fixing the problem, then I wasn't being a good steward, a good citizen of this world, a good person. And so finally we had one session. We were able to talk to a facilitator. And the beautiful message that she gave me that made me super pissed off, but then was able to settle in through the rest of the meditations of the week, whereas you're no good to anyone if you're not rested, if you're not taking care of yourself, if you're not silent. And I had never at that point thought about part of the work being me taking care of myself. I think for me and for a lot of black women, so much of our identity and self-work is what we do for others, and it can take up all the space in our mind. And so this idea of focusing on myself, giving myself permission to rest, giving myself permission not to think, not to plan, not to strategize on how to fix. It felt really selfish in the moment. But then to have her flip that on its head and really make it, no, that's the work. Like you're no good to anyone if you're depleted. You're no good to anyone if you're, if you're spent, if you're burnt out. It helped me put myself in the equation because so much of where I was at that moment and in that time. And I was also working in the space full-time as a DEI consultant. So I was in extreme savior mode. My day-to-day was saving employees, cultures, leadership, organizations, like that's what I did all day. So externally facing. So, like, what do they need? What do I need to do for them? The minute the facilitator said you have to center yourself in this, it was such an aha moment, but it was deeply, deeply uncomfortable. And by the end of the week, and I highly recommend they're called Vipazanas. I highly recommend them to anyone listening. It's been one of the best travel experiences I've had in the last five years. That week of silence, by the end of that week, I felt so excited and refreshed and galvanized and clear. And the retreat that I was on was BIPOC. So it was a majority of Black women. And I could see it across all of our faces. We weren't speaking to each other for a week, but I could feel the burden being lifted and leaving. All I could think is, I want more Black women to experience this. I want more Black women in this space. For the last five years, post-George Floyd, we had made it our duty to turn around racial affairs in this country as our full-time job. And we're working overtime or we're putting in 60 hours a week. And I just, I felt like it was such a beautiful gift being given to me. The permission to rest, the permission to focus on myself, the permission to not fix, not talk, not lead. I left that retreat thinking, how can I give this gift to more black women? And the podcast felt like the natural evolution of a way to carry this message further, share this gift with others who look like me.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

It feels so important to like highlight and underline how this experience that you gave yourself when you first went into it, your mind is saying, you're doing the opposite of being supportive and helpful. This is the opposite of everything that you say you want to be. You're taking yourself away out of the equation, you're taking things away from other people. And it feels so important to highlight in this moment that the reach of this show and the amount of people that will impact this and experience it and unfold because of that quote-unquote selfish act you did is exponential compared to how you could support from your burnout and from your emptiness.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

100%. And I would argue when Black women do this rest and centered themselves, they are actively fighting against all the systems that they want to fight against patriarchy, white supremacy, capitalism. And so to think about rest as a revolutionary act, which many Black women are doing already, they're who are having this conversation, but to internalize that for yourself and to live that, to know that that is work and work can feel easy, work can feel light, work can feel good to you, you are breaking down all the systems. Because when I think about the archetypes of Mammy, Mule, and Maid, all of those archetypes were created external to us. And when I say us, I mean black women. And the narrative was unless you fill these archetypes, you are unworthy of our love, attention, care, remuneration, all those things. So when we say, I am still worthy of all those things, whether I fill those archetypes for you, we are upending the very systems that we have been breaking our backs to fix for decades and centuries. And so that felt really on a very personal level, really great. And I and I also think a lot of black women don't know how to do this. I was thinking, it became really clear to me after Kamala lost, and so many black women saying, that's it, we told you, we're out, you fix this. That felt so good. And I could feel this hanging question of what's next. Like we told you we're not doing it. And what's next did come up organically line dancing, flashing the fans, like picking songs, going to Beyonce Conscious. Like some of that rose up really naturally, but it's really hard to entrain it in that everyday moment, right? Like I go to that line dance for that moment. I'm having a great time. I'm not protesting, I'm not holding up placards, I'm not saying the things. But then it's in the quiet moments where you decide to take a nap in the middle of the day, and that voice in your head says, you don't deserve that. Your to-do list is a thousand things. Did you reply to that email? Did you help that person? Did you cook that meal for your kid? Did you call your mama? It's in those little small minute moments where you really reaffirm what centering yourself and reclaiming your time really looks like. And so I just wanted to create a wider conversation with Black women, saying, here's how I do it, so that outside of light, we had a robust list of tools, tips, and strategies of what it looks like to put it all down. And we all are finding our own different modalities, right? Some people are doing meditation, some people are doing yoga, some people are doing Pilates, but we need to continuously have the conversation of what we're doing to remind people of the options that they have. Because right now, the conversation around black women is how are they taking care of other people? How are they leading? What are they fixing? What are they doing for their community? What are they doing for their family? We have to be equally as loud about what we do to take care of ourselves. And so I'm really hopeful that this podcast and begin this conversation and this kind of like list of ideas that we can all I need to turn off for a minute. What can I do? Oh, I heard this person say they did this. Okay, I'm gonna try that too. So you find your thing, right? Do you find the thing that helps you really turn it down, turn it off and go back to yourself?

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Yeah. Something else I think is so powerful about putting this show and these conversations out is I think our deepest shadows really thrive in solitude and separation, right? And so if you're having these internal dialogues with yourself, it's really easy to convince yourself that something's wrong with you or that you're the outlier. Everyone else is doing it, everyone else is handling it. Well, why can't you just handle it? Just pick it up, get it together. But when we get in this room and I'm imagining this beautiful show, you know, five, 10, 20 episodes down the line, it's like after I tune into this enough, I can no longer lie to myself that this is a me problem.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

I love that sentiment so much because for me, the first step of healing my trauma and acknowledging that people weren't nice to me was acknowledging that this happens to people that look like me. And it wasn't a me thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

When I used to facilitate courses at Cornell around DEI, part of our program was really having people unpack the experiences of laps of inclusion that they had experienced in the workplace. And the biggest aha in that whole program were students writing. I didn't realize other people's bosses treated them the way they treated me. I didn't realize that and for them to, because to your point, in silence, the story is in those systems, patriarchy, capitalism, white supremacy, they make you feel. Feel like this happened to you because you deserve it, because you're bad. And so once you start hearing other people's stories and then like, wait a minute, you're a black woman like me, but we got nothing else in common and you experience that too. Wait a minute. This isn't a me thing. The amount of shame and guilt that comes off your back, but this awareness of, oh, this is a system problem. This isn't a Michaela problem. This isn't a crystal problem. This is a systemic problem. I think that's why me too was such a powerful movement, because women have been experiencing sexual trauma for years and years and years. And then to see millions of women say, Me too, oh, this wasn't about what I wore. Oh, this wasn't about how I said hi to that man that one time. Oh, that wasn't because I had one too many glasses of wine and then went back to his house. This was the man's fault. This wasn't what I had done. Because if we're all saying that this is happening to us, it's so much bigger than me. And so there is so much power in this community of not only collectively do we realize that this is happening to all of us, that it is not something that we deserve, but we can collectively come together and say, hey, not on my watch. I'm done with it. And while I do feel like DEI is in flux, under attack, and is finding its newest form, I think one of the power of it over the last five years has been a lot of minoritized employees saying, my manager does this, and having somebody external say, that's not your fault. That shouldn't have happened to you. They're wrong. And that needs to be fixed. And even though there's still so many leaders in corporations that don't buy the validity of it, we see a lot of employees realizing this. And I also think this is the power of Gen Z. I'm so desperately in love with this generation. As a Gen Xer, like I'm aspirationally Gen Z because they are just so gangster. I call them Generation Uzi because if they don't like something, they come out with like an Uzi, like that, that, that, that, that. Why it's like so amazing to me. Because they never, Gen Z to me, and we're speaking in generalizations. When I say black women, I don't mean all black women. I send Gen Z, I don't mean all Gen Z. But one of the things I really admire about Gen Z is they don't internalize other people's bad behaviors in the ways that boomers and Gen Xers do. When we were mistreated, our first thought was like, what did I do wrong? What can I do better? Whenever I'm coaching leaders, I'm like, that worked for you, but that doesn't work with Gen Z. Gen Z says, what's the matter with you? And I don't like it. I'm out of here. And I'm gonna wide to teach about it on my way out. Like, and I love that. Like I've learned so, like I've learned so much from them. Like the lack of internalizing your trauma and kind of saying, like, what's wrong with this system versus what's wrong with me is so powerful and so revolutionary.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Yes. Even just having the moment when you're in a dialogue or back and forth or having an experience with someone. And as you're engaging with them, there's something landing in your system that's like, this isn't quite right. Even just having that moment of being like, what happens if I just don't pick this up? I think about this a lot like a backpack. Like when someone comes at me crazy in any way, I'm imagining they've put a backpack at my feet. And I have total agency on if I pick that up and put it on my back or not. And it's revolutionary to just not pick that up and then see what happens. You can literally watch your paradigm crumble in front of you by refusing to pick up that backpack.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

I love this point around intuition. I think the more that I've healed, the more that I trust my intuition. All the things that I'm realizing now at 46 were true were things that I felt at 16 and 26, but told myself, you have to be wrong. That cannot be right. You're the one who's wrong. You did something to them. The beauty of my healing process has to re has been to realize all the things that I pathologized about myself were A, and I'm not perfect. I'm in no way saying that I'm perfect and that I've operated as a steward of good work in all spaces within all relationships. But I've come to realize that a lot of the things that I blame myself for actually was my intuition was 100% right. That the the relationship was off, the system was off, the energy that I was receiving with someone else was off. And I do, I do think we overuse the word gaslighting too much, but I am really grateful for that concept in the world because I think it gives people permission to say, hey, wait a minute, is that my backpack? Like, do I want to pick that up? Or are am I actually the victim right now when you're projecting on me? And so I think because we never talked about that form of manipulation before, the pendulum has swung to the other side. So we're talking about it a little bit too much, but I have belief that it will swing back to the middle where we'll be more discerning. And like when we have that, those tummy tingles, like, even though this person is saying the right thing and they're smiling and their tone is okay, something is off. We can hold space and say, like, what's really happening on both sides? I think trauma makes you really insular. And a lot of times when you're having a traumatic experience, you're so focused and on yourself and what you're experienced that you don't ever question what the other person experiencing is experiencing and what they're doing. And I think that could be really part of the healing process is to take into account first yourself, but also what else is happening in the room. What else could be causing me to feel this way?

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Yeah. Yeah. What unconscious bias might be present in the person that I'm engaging with that's impacting the way that they speak or relate to me in ways that they might not even know. It's so deep.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Yes. Yes. I also really love that right now we're having conversations about attention versus impact. I think for a long time we've focused on other people's intention and people themselves, when they're violating you, focus on their intention. So if you do call them out, well, I never meant to or I didn't mean to. And now we're holding space that impact is as important. And so whether you are consciously aware of your bias or not, this is the way you're showing up with me and this is how you're making me feel. And if we are in relationship with each other, you're as accountable for that as I am. Also, intention is really selfish because when you're thinking about your intention, you're thinking about what you want out of the situation and experience. Impact is you thinking, how do I want the other person to receive it, to hold it? And if you're not necessarily and so thinking about your impact on other people, which is part of the conversation now, I think is so beautiful and important around holding yourself accountable. Okay, I didn't intend that, but that's the way I showed up for you. I need to do some personal accounting around that.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Yes. And that offering from the person you're engaging with is such an act of love and intimacy when someone says, Hey, this is how it impacted me, and I love you enough to be with you while we figure out how this can impact better for both of us. We're usually so afraid of that, but actually when we open to it, it's so beautiful. It is such a deepening of intimacy and connection. And yeah, I'm such an advocate for that. I love that you've brought that forward.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Yeah, I think uh one of the reasons why I think impact, especially as it applies to black women, is so important. I think because a common trauma response for black women is resilience and then overcompensating to bridge the gap. There is not a full understanding within general society of how marginalized black women are. And I see that through popular culture. So I love reality TV. I you don't watch TV, right? That's something we've never talked about as much as we love each other. Do you watch TV? And I don't believe you watch reality TV. Do you? In very, very specific ways. I thought so. I thought so. I thought so. I thought so. So I think for me, because I'm an anthropologist, I'm a trained anthropologist, I love reality TV because it feels like a microcosm of the world. And like you can kind of see what the values and the social mores are at a time. And I'm seeing so many conversations now about black women on predominantly white casts of reality TV. And what I realize in the conversation is that a lot of people who aren't black women have no understanding of the reaction reception they get from others. And so I love having this conversation because I think it adds some context to that. Sometimes the thing is, I kind of watch reality TV from through a critical lens because of my anthropological background. But there are people just watching it for fun. And so they see black women show up in a space in a particular way and they read it for face value. They don't necessarily understand the context of patriarchy and racism that informs the way that these women are showing up in this space, this mixed race space. And so when they react in a particular way, everyone focuses on the intention of those in the space with them and have and have no understanding or empathy for the impact it might have on that woman. I think when we talk about owning how you have played a role in your own trauma, I think for black women, I know I had been taught by the women in my life to shut up and just work harder or to be super mammy, super kind, super coddling, super effusive, super fun, super laphy, super jokey, right? All the things that dispel all the negative stereotypes around black women that we never we're never really given permission to have a full range of human emotion. And so when we show up angry, when we show up irritated, when we show up shy, when we show up scared, the context of that is that it's being misread by a lot, by a lot of people. And so I think one of the beautiful things that are happening right now is Black Twitter or Black female Twitter, right, are very quick to point out, oh, nope, that's a microaggression. Nope, nope, she's not calling that up because she doesn't want to be tagged the angry black woman. Nope, nope, she knows she won't be given the grades if she calls you on your stuff in this moment. It's kind of opening up this conversation of these are the reasons why black people, black women in particular, behave this way. Here is the impact that caused them to create this trauma response. And so I'm hoping with this podcast to create more context, more nuance to Black women, because I think in many ways, because of these archetypes, we're seen as a monolith. And when we step out of the box of that monolith, you know, always happy, always taking it on the chin, always giving and never expecting anything in return, always volunteering first, always finishing last, coming early, leaving late. When we do anything outside the box, it feels very dissonant for the rest of society. And that discomfort makes them very reactionary toward Black women and to give context, because maybe we've never said before, but I've been coming early and leaving late for a year. So today I just want to leave early and take care of my kid. I think sometimes needs to be named for people to realize, oh, this is the context of that. And this is the impact of me not even noticing their full-lived experience it has on how they show up in the world today. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Completely, completely. And I feel like it would be really valuable for the listeners if we kind of went through the archetypes one by one and just like broke them down a bit more, because I think I'm sure that these are all present for almost everybody listening. Anyone who's been drawn to this show had probably been put within these archetypes at some point. But I also, I also suspect, and I'm curious if this has been your experience. I also suspect that there's probably one for each person that tends to be kind of the main place, the main shape they take to kind of be in that constructed safety, if you will. So let's start with mammy. I would love, I'd love if you just kind of break that down a little bit and maybe give some examples of like how that particular archetype expresses. Like, how does she show up when a woman feels like she needs to be in the mammy role? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 34:07

So the mammy archetype is really based in antebellum slavery. It's the black woman who lived in the house, who took care of not only the children, but also the parents, the slave owner, right? And and and in taking care of others that superseded anything that related to them. It's also a very, it's a very, it makes other people feel safe because it's very maternal. Let me hold you to my bosom, let me make you feel comfortable. You're upset, I'll float that on me. I'll hold your pain. I'll give you direction on how I'll coddle you, I'll rub your back, I'll reaffirm you. And there's absolutely no space within that equation for how that black woman is feeling in the moment about the fact that her children live on the plantation somewhere else. These white children are her white children, she needs to treat them that way. It shows up all the time in all social spaces and very much in professional spaces, right? It's a black woman you like to sit at her desk and complain about your boyfriend or your weekend with. And you never once ask her, how is your weekend? How are your kids, right? It's the one where people are arguing in a setting and she comes in and she says, Whoa, whoa, whoa, let me hold space. She's the one that you call and you talk for an hour and a half, and then you get off a half an hour later because you didn't hold the same level of space for her, right? It's that need to want to take care. And in many ways, it feels really good. I have played the Mammy many, many times for those in my family, for those in my friend groups, for those that I've worked and managed. It feels it's really reaffirming because we feel needed. As black women, we feel needed and we feel appreciated. The problem, the way that that feels hollow is that there's no expectation of reciprocation, verily similar, similar to that slave. If she's upset, if she's having a hard day, if she needs to cry, if she needs, there's no space for that. So it's a very imbalanced relationship. And it's dehumanizing because there's not an expectation that this woman would have the same needs as you do in the moment when you need her. There's no expectation that she might need you back. And in many ways, black women, we have it is a role that we step into very naturally because we are very empathetic and we do care. Again, generalization, but those who feel the mammy, mammy um prototype archetype, very empathetic, easy to feel other people's emotions, hold space for them. And we often don't say, hey, flag on the play. I need to talk now. Can you ask me about my weekend? I don't really want to talk about that right now. I don't really have the bandwidth. Now's not a good time, or to even cut off relationships that are really unbalanced. I think a lot of firstborn daughters play this role, regardless of race. Just kind of stepping into that maternal figure, right? I think a lot of immigrants step into that space. We're less scary as the other if we're maternal. In many ways, how patriarchy has made motherhood the ideal because it is softness, as it is caring, when you embody that in its entirety and you add in the element of race, it becomes this prism where you can never be mad, you can never scold, you can never, you can never say, I need time, I need your space, I need your attention, I need to hold, I need to be held. And I think this shows up quite honestly quite a bit in our romantic relationships. I think a lot of women, black women, have taken on maternal role in their romantic relationships, almost to their detriment. And here's the thing when you're a mammy, and for all the other archetypes too, you're doing all of these things hoping that it is going to give you some level of acceptance, respect, worth from someone else. But because it is based in an imbalanced relationship, it is easily taken away or lost. So there's so many black women who are bending over backwards to center other people in their lives, and they can lose it in a minute because it's not rooted in reciprocation. It's not rooted in an authentic relationship, it's not rooted in community. You are in service to someone else, but they can't respect you back because you're not asking for that level of respect. And so in a minute, it could be gone. I know I have been, I know so many black women who have done have been anything and everything for other people. And those very same people have left them and never looked back once because they were dispendable. They were they weren't human to them. They weren't, they weren't, they weren't someone deserving of the same level or time or response. They're an accessory. They're an accessory instead of a being. Yes, yes. And it also prevents a lot of people. I have felt like I, in being the mammy, have prevented a lot of people in my life to grow.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Uh to learn on their own to fully expand because I've stepped in and done the hard labor for them. And looking back, and one of the ways I was able to stop being mammy as much is that I saw how selfish it was on my end, because I got the gratitude, I got to be the hero, I got to be the one who found the answer, I got to be the fixer. But then in hindsight, there was no respect either side, right? Like I didn't respect that you could figure it out enough on your own, and you saw me as an accessory. So that those relationships weren't really on rooted ground. And that's why they could break up so easily. I wasn't doing myself a service, but I also wasn't doing the other person a service either. Because I'm basically saying, I don't expect you to figure this out. So let me give you the answer.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

That's so powerful to highlight because I can hear a lot. I feel like when the mammy's really been internalized, the natural response when we're talking about potentially breaking that posture is, but that means I'm not taking care of people that I love. And this reframe that actually a lot of times what we're doing is halting them and taking up the space that shouldn't be between them and their intuition or them and their guides or them and their friends or whoever. And we are kind of robbing them of an opportunity to grow in a lot of cases. And I feel like for anyone who's really sitting in this archetype and is like, okay, this is me. How do I start breaking this? For me, when I was kind of breaking down these things, a really important question I was asking myself is like, is this action, whatever action I'm taking, when it when I feel the urge to care? Because we do, right? We do feel the urge to care. And Michaela is not saying just drop that urge entirely. And, you know, it's not that. But I think a really powerful exploration is am I doing this? Am I stepping into this place of care because I genuinely want to from the core of your body? Or am I stepping into this place of care because some part of me is afraid that if I don't, there will be a consequence?

SPEAKER_00 41:14

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I think the thing about archetypes is that it becomes instinct. Yeah. So you see someone struggling and immediately you go to save what I am working toward doing more is that pause and asking why, why do I feel this way? What's really happening here in this moment? Who does it serve? Because the other thing is, because, and one of the reasons why I wanted to have this podcast, because black women are so busy saving other people, it distracts us from having to save ourselves. So with our own shit, right? So, like, am I helping this person so I don't have to think about what I need to be focused and working on right now with myself? Do I honestly believe this person cannot figure this out if I don't help them? Will they be destroyed? Will they be annihilated? And B, is this actually someone I want in my life? If we do decide this is a person that doesn't have the wherewithal to get them outside of the situation they're in, is that someone you want in your inner circle? Is that someone you want close by? Or do you want to surround yourself with people who are similarly resilient, similarly critical thinkers, similarly people always trying to level up? When you immediately go into savior mode, you're not asking a lot of questions like, is this what I want? Is this what I deserve? Is this what like I'm attracting into my life? And similarly, is this what they need? Is this what they even want? Because that's the thing. A lot of times we're saving a lot of people who don't even want to be saved. And I can't tell you the amount of people in my personal life have been deeply resentful because I've come in in my mind in a clutch to save it, and they didn't even want me there.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Yeah, absolutely. I can see that coming up in such a big way in romantic relationships, especially like I feel like that could be a whole episode about how this particular archetype impacts polarity and relationships, because that's a whole thing. That's a whole saying. Okay, I love that. So let's move on to the mule. How does that one, like how does that one function?

SPEAKER_00 43:17

So one of my patron states is Zora Neil Hurston, because she started her PhD at Columbia in Anthropology. I had my PhD in from Columbia in Anthropology. She actually wrote the term black woman, the black woman is the mule of the world. So the archetype of black woman is mule is always feeling the need to do the work, the extra work. So within the black community, we have this thing called black tax. It means you do double the work for half of the recognition. I think all diverse people, minoritized people, do this tax. But this idea of I only get my sex self work if I go above and beyond, if I supersede all expectations, if I Like, if I'm the smartest person in the room, I'm the one you go to to fix things. If no one else is gonna volunteer, I see this so much in professional setting. A project comes up, the leader says, Who wants to take this on? Everyone stays quiet because they know the black person, black woman in the room is gonna say, I'll do it, and never ask for help. It's that heavy lifting, that heavy load all the time. And in some ways, it has been, it can, it can feel really good. Black women are the most highly educated. They're getting the highest graduate degrees, right? That's very much the mule, let me be the smartest person in the room, let me be the one with the answers, let me be the fixer, let me always give more. But again, because a lot of times that's not reciprocal, also because a lot of that extra labor is done without recognition by the person doing the work or those receiving the work, opportunities for depletion, overwhelm, exhaustion are equally ignored. Again, very dehumanizing. The amount of work that I see Black women doing in corporate America without any level of recognition, compensation, um, appreciation, and the way that that results in burnout, fatigue, high rates of illness, not being able to show up for their family and friends, having no personal life because they're always working. For so many Black women as a meal, your work is directly tied to your self-worth. And so the possibility that you can do nothing and still be worthy is such an anomaly. And that is something I'm definitely grappling with now of feeling like if I am not busy 24-7 in service of some do-do-less, then I'm not a good person. I carry so much guilt and shame if I am not up at the crack of dawn and I'm not doing 15 things in a day. And I think that there's a lot of groups that don't feel that same pressure. There are some groups of people who feel entitled to rest and relaxation. And I think for black women, we have seen our mothers do it, we've seen our grandmothers do it, we've seen our great-grandmothers do it. And the language around it is always one of pride in the fact that we overwork. This is what we do. And in so many ways, it has served our community. Black women being the mule has served our community. And I mean that by our families, I mean as a black community. Go, we we are the fixers. We are the ones who identify issues and call them out. We are the canary in the coal mine, especially for issues faced in our community. And we jump in feet first and we're gonna lead the charge. And it has been a direct result of betterment for our communities. However, it's rooted in the false falsity that if we don't do it, no one else will, almost similar to the conversation we were just having, that we're not giving anyone else the opportunity to step up and do it and do it in the way we think they should do it, because we're not even, we're not even asking, hey, does anybody else want to do it? I do so much work coaching black women. Next time a project is offered in a meeting, say nothing. Let it get uncomfortable. Let say nothing for 30 minutes. Let people look at each other, blink, blink, blink, who's gonna do it? Let them look at you, who's gonna do it? You don't say anything. It is so hard because again, it's an instinct. And we're not asking the question, do I wanna do this? Am I the best person to do this? What kind of team do I need to do this? Because we're willing, very willing to do it on our own. What type of protections, resources, investment do I need for it? So many black women that we have been raised in, we'll find a way, we'll figure it out, we'll do it at extreme expense of ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

I'm feeling such this through line as we're as we're moving to these archetypes of like I think how they express outwardly is very clear and obvious at first, at first glance and first experience with these and how they function and um what larger purposes they serve for better or for worse. But something that's really coming up as we're going deeper into each one is like these also play a role in whoever is holding on to the archetype. And you said this in in Mammy specifically. It is also giving us an out to looking at our own stuff and being with our own stuff. And I can hear women listening to this being like, girl, but if I look at my own stuff, it's all gonna fall down. And it might need to, sis. It might need to all fall down. And I'm super curious, like for you, is there a timeliness to that right now?

SPEAKER_00 48:40

I want to answer that, but I do want to speak to something you just said because that's so resonated for me. Because I have often felt that if I wasn't everything to everyone, that I would crumble. I don't even I felt like I would self-annihilate. I don't even know if I knew what that would look like, but I felt like like my world as I knew it would be done. And we're erasing the possibility that something new can come in.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

That there could be something better and good, and that all of the resilience and skills that we have built, tools, tips and strategies we have built to serve other people, we have them in our back pocket for ourselves. Like this idea that like they only work if we're expending them out. But like you can take a break, you and can rest, because the resilience that you're just refocusing your resilience to yourself. That resilience that you were giving to your community, you can refocus to yourself. The ways that you learned how to fix things. You can fix yourself. You've been so busy doing it for other people, but if you turn that inward, no one is better equipped to do that for yourself, right? And so that's the beauty of it. That's the beauty of it. To the point of timeliness, I think what's happening in this country and this world, it will take more than one group to fix. And I think there is an important timeliness of black women, and we're seeing this post-Kamala's loss. A black woman saying, we have been trying to fix this for so long and clearly it is not working. Who else got this? And I think to fix a lot of the problems happening in society, we're gonna have to come in it from many different means and ways and modalities. And sometimes, as black women, and I hope the listeners don't feel like I'm putting down black women because this podcast is such a deep, deep, deep love letter to black women. I love you all so desperately. I'm not putting down putting down black women, but I am acknowledging that we have taken up space and room and allowed other people who need to fix certain things that only they can fix. Only they can fix. It was so crazy that women were leaving the charge around DEI when many, in many ways, men were causing the issues of non-inclusion. And there were so many men I would try to coach as a DEI consultant that would never listen to me because I'm a black woman. They had to hear it from a white man. They had to hear from a white man to take it seriously. But because I was trying to fill the space as the mule, I got the answers, come to me, I can fix it. No one else ever spoke up. And they didn't get it from the sports source they actually needed from. The problems that we're dealing with in this country, many of it we have not created. Black women, we have not created it. In many ways, we are the victim of it. And it is very hard as a black woman to be victim, but then also be expected to be the fixer of the very thing that they are the victim of. We would never ask a rape victim to sit down with their rapist and explain to them how the rape impacted their life. Rapists should probably hear that, right? And maybe they do in the victim impacts during a trial if they're lucky to get that far. But there are so many ways that black women, as victim, is trying to fix their own marginalization. And you're a victim. And sometimes you get to wallow in that. And sometimes you get to cry it out and curl up in a ball and be in a corner and not be part of the discussion of the repercussions or ramifications of that. You did not cause the problem. It is not your job as Mammy Mule or Maid to fix it. And because we have assumed those archetypes within society, people are literally coming to us as victims and saying, Can you fix your own victimization? And that again, the dehumanization, that we're not a victim, like that we don't get to operate like typical victims who get to break down, who get to hold space for that. We immediately, as mule, go into fixing mode. We have to stop aiding and abetting that call. We have to start saying, no, no, no, I'm a victim of this. This isn't me. I didn't cause that. I didn't fix that. They did that. They need to make amends. They need to come to me and explain and figure out a path forward. But me going to them and asking them to care, me going to them and asking them to see me as human, me going to them and asking them to want to be better with me, it's never going to work because it's not an innate need of their own. You can't tell a perpetrator to care about their victim. They have to go through that journey themselves. They have to decide that that's something they want to fix. So I think for black women to step back and say, this is this is a shit show not of our making, what y'all got on this will help, but we'll decide how we want to help, but we might not help at all because we've been working hard for decades and centuries. That should be an option that we get to choose. And I know there will be black women who will always rise to the call, who will step in in this world because it feels right to them. But to appreciate that not every fight has to be ours or mine, and I don't need to be everything to everybody at all times is incredibly liberating.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

Yes. And to kind of circle back on something you said before, when you do resist that instinct to step up and fix it, and there's that awkward, and you and you you resist the instinct and you let the awkward moment happen. Those are the moments that will unfold into someone coming to their own conclusion. What you've just said about like, you can't go to your perpetrator and make them care. They have to get there on their own, but they won't get there if you keep filling that gap. There has to be that gap for someone to be like, well, this feels weird. There's that, like that discomfort is a piece of the recognition sequence. And if we keep filling it, that full circle that we're looking for, it can't happen.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

Can't happen. It can't happen. Thank you for that question on timeliness. Because I think that this is a moment that we're in. We're all being called to pick our lane and just our lane at everybody's lane, or not five lanes, or not ten lanes, but just pick our lane. And part of that lane is your own self-care. And modeling the behavior you want from others. Why would anybody clear if you're depleted if you don't even care that you're depleted? Why would anyone be upset that you came first and you lay last, you left last if you're willing to sleep for one hour a night so you can do that? You can't ask anyone to care about you more than you care about yourself.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

Yes. Yes. I feel like we've pretty naturally kind of gotten into this final archetype, but I want to give the maid the space that she deserves to talk a little bit about how that one functions and how she shows up.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

Yeah. Maid for me is like I said, under Mule is cleaning up messes that you didn't create, right? Yeah. And this one is really, really, really deep for me because I've spent the last five years officially, but 20 years unofficially, doing diversity, equity, and inclusion. It is such a thankless job. And I was constantly brought into organizations to fix problems that AI didn't cause and that leadership never wanted to fix. And so you're set up for failure to some degree, right? Because there to fix something, there has to be a deep understanding of what caused the mess up in the first place. And sometimes I really struggle to understand how are these spaces so toxic? How is this leadership so callous? Why do they not care at all about their employees or their culture or their and so I'm trying to find answers for a problem that I didn't create, doesn't necessarily resonate with my own core values. And I'm expected, I'm expected to fix it. Like that to me, that's the crazy part. Like I would have leadership coming to me like, why isn't this better yet? Even this conversation now with so many organizations rolling back DEI because they felt that it's been unsuccessful the last five years, it's been unsuccessful because it's been sabotaged. You never wanted it to work. So for you now to blame DEI as not working when you never set it up for success. And we know you know how to do success because you're a multimillion dollar corporation. You know how to do things you want to do. But the fact that DEI didn't work is because of DEI and not because at every turn there was obfuscation, pushback, lack of authentic engagement, hands-off, resentment, anger, it's really interesting. And so again, we've talked about this before, but I really want Black women to stop doing things for others that they don't want because it is such a waste of time. When I think about how much work and care and love and trust and authenticity that I poured into organizations over the last five years, for it to mean nothing the minute that Trump became president for that shit, I felt that like shit so clearly. All the all the gains I thought I had made, I thought we took five steps forward, but I realized it was actually only maybe one or two. The fact that it could be reversed so quickly, all the nights that I didn't sleep, all the research that I did, all the presentations I put together, all the plans that I made up, all the meetings I sat in, all the culture, all of that was effort. That was not easy for me to do, mainly because a lot of times the employees that were being disenfranchised, I related to on a racial, cultural, gender way. And then for it to be erased, I really want black women to stop giving effort to things and people that don't want it. And I also think what would happen for us if we directed that effort to ourselves and people who do want it. How many ceilings would be broken, how many new spaces would be created? But we've spent so much time in this struggle of trying to win people over. If we directed our and our energy to things that actually wanted us. Oh my God, how beautiful. And that's part of the healing too, because so much of this work is believing that you deserve, that you deserve people who want to pour back into you, that you deserve that people who want to give to you as much as you give to them, or maybe even more. Some of that work that we're ignoring because we're so externally facing is a healing around this idea of what you're worth, what you deserve, what you should be given from others. But we haven't spent the time to be like, actually, no, this is bullshit. Like, I'm not wasting time on this before because you are showing me in so many ways, outside of your words, but in your actions, in your energy, in your tone, in your body language, that you don't mess with me. So why am I still in the room with you? And a lot of times it's this fear of there's nothing else out there, but how would you know if you never explored that, if you were never open to that, if you're so busy giving all your energy to spaces that don't want you, how would you possibly know if there are spaces that do? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:45

Yes. I'm such a big advocate for experimentation for this exact reason, right? Like your subconscious actually needs data in order to allow you to make a change. And this podcast is such a beautiful example of that data. We've got mirror neurons that need to recognize things that are already in existence in external reality. So there are gonna be women that come into this room, hear these conversations, and are like, okay, this could be possible for me. And I think doing an experiment is so powerful because if you go all in on something for like three months as an example, let's say you focus in on one of these archetypes and you're like, you know what? For three months, I'm gonna refuse to let this particular archetype run my life and see what happens on the other side. What you will come out with is a very strong data bank of how much energy and power, A, you've been giving away, and B, you actually have access to. Because most people are gonna come into this conversation at a pretty deep state of burnout. Yes. And they're listening and they're thinking, like, girl, I don't have more energy for this. You do, you do. It's just currently being siphoned in ways you don't even realize. And what's coming forward for me too, as we're speaking, is like, y'all, people don't try to control people they don't think are powerful. Yeah. Like the reason this system works is because you have so much power and so much magic and so much energy. And so when you finally start pouring that into you, girl, the systems that we've been so oppressed under are nothing. Yeah. They are nothing. They cannot work without our complicity. Yeah. And this shift of like, okay, for one month, six weeks, three months, whatever, I'm not gonna participate in that. Please watch how your energy changes. You'll be a different person on the other side. And sit with the discomfort.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:33

Yes. Because during those three months, there are gonna be moments where you want to go back to what has worked for what has worked for you. And I say that with bunny ears in the past. Because we are fed off of the gratitude and the, oh, I'm so glad you've listened to me. And I'm so glad you did that project. And you're a rock star, right? But to sit with the discomfort of not getting that feedback, but sitting with yourself. Yeah. And paying attention to all the signs that are coming. Because I think that's the most beautiful thing for me. The more I have decluttered my life in being really present to these archetypes and not allowing them space in my mind, in my psyche as much as they. So they're still there to some degree. It might take me my whole life to unlearn them. I've been doing them for 46 years, right? But I'm I'm picking up on so many things. Like the universe is speaking to me so loudly. The tweet that I see that gives me answers a question I didn't I realize now I've had in my head about what comes next. The podcast I listen to where it feels like the person is talking directly to me and giving me options. Before I was so busy, I was less present. And so to free up time to receive, and at the core, this is what this podcast is. It is my love letter and gift to black women. And I want them to sit back and receive it. I don't want them to feel like they have to do any work. I willingly and gladly do the work to deliver these messages to you to just receive. If you get into the space of receiver, you will be aware, you will be blown away by the way that the universe, your ancestors are talking to you continuously and guiding you. But you have to be willing to sit in the discomfort of the unknown. And for so long, being the mammy, mule, and maid, as terrible as it felt, felt, it felt very familiar. It felt very known. It is what society has told us for so long we are supposed to be. We thought we were playing by the rules. To fill those archetypes means we were playing by the rules. And so we thought we were safe because we were playing by the rules without realizing to your exact point that we were curbing our power, placing glass ceilings over ourselves that we didn't even need, denying ourselves comfort, out loud appreciation, love, support, all the things we give to people to come back to us. We've got to get out of this narrative that society has created for us that this is the only way we're worth anything. This is the only way we'll succeed. This is the only way that we'll achieve, that we'll get the things we want. Because the truth of the matter is it's not really working. Let's be honest. We played the played by the rules of society, and black women are not receiving any more respect, support, remuneration, wealth accumulation than if we if we hadn't like what is the what are the possibilities of if we say I'm not playing by those rules, I'm going to make my own rules, then the opportunities are are are are infinitesimal.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:40

That's such a great point. Cause I think one of the arguments that the mind puts up when we start doing this work is um how do you know it's gonna work? Yeah, well, you don't, but if it's already not working, you you actually don't really have anything to lose, right? It's such an illusion. The mind says, oh, but that's unknown, it's scary, you don't know what's gonna happen out there. That all of that is true. And if you don't feel currently resourced, seen, valued, supported, understood, prioritized, then what are you fighting for, girl?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:14

Like it's a really important illusion, I think, that needs to be seen and flipped because it is ultimately just another layer of the defense and like giving yourself that opportunity to really open to a new way of being. Even if you leave this process 10% more resource, that is huge. Like, think about the impact of that on your lineage. You said something to me in a conversation recently that at my mind, Michaela. You said, I need to start moving like I'm the ancestor my lineage is praying to. That blew my mind. So often we are looking backwards, yes, tuning into what's come before, definitely tuning into generational burdens, but to flip that script and think, no, no, I'm the one that the future generation. Are you turning back to for guidance and as the lighthouse of this new way of being, who do I have to be to make that possible? That is radical. And again, even if it's just 10%, if you shift 10%, the next generation can shift 20. Yeah. And the next generation can shift 40. Like that's a big deal.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

Yeah. I very much think about my children and my grandchildren and realizing that I am the foundation. I should be the lowest wrong on that ladder. So before I have them, what level of wrong do I want to be that they're jumping off of? I also feel when I do this work, I'm I'm healing the trauma of my ancestors. I'm healing my mother's trauma, my grandmother's trauma, my grandmother's trauma, all those who felt like they had no choice but to live in those archetypes. Me being like, I am not going to do that residually is healing that. So I'm paying it forward on both sides and I benefit as well. But it's just so important that we break this because I do think we've learned this perpetual ticket on the struggle bus from the women before us, right? And when we think about depleted energy, like energetically, like what kind of foundation would I be for my future generations if I'm depleted? That's not a firm ground for them to launch pad off of. And I think some of us feel unstable because we have the trauma of our ancestors. And the greatest gift we can give them is we know you set us up for more. Let me show you what more looks like. And then to give that to our future generations as well. I went as high as I could possibly go. So you were already starting in the stratosphere. That's so important to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:42

Yeah, it's also such a way to honor them, as you've just pointed out, right? To give yourself the best life possible is an honor to all those that walked before you. And to your point as well, to those that did not have the space, the time, the resources, the ability, the awareness to make a choice. If you're here listening to this show, your consciousness is at a level where you can choose.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:03

And to do that, to start that process, no matter how long or uphill it might feel or take, that is such a way to honor those that walked before you. And as you're saying, yeah, to set the bar somewhere new for those that come after.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:16

It's so powerful. And that brings that reverence back into our bodies, right? We've been taught like your vessel is meaningless, your vessel is less than it's subject. Yes. But when you see yourself as not only when you walk and move, like the culmination of your ancestors, but also like the turning point of those who come after, your sacredness drops right back into every cell of your body. That's a remembering. And when you walk in that way, these systems don't work on you. You see them for what they are, and you're like, I don't think so. That's not me anymore.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:52

Yeah. I think in some ways, it's a way of flipping the mammy archetype on its head. I do think black women are naturally maternal. And if we ask the question of ourselves, would this be okay if this happened to my child? It's a great way to get a barameter of whether we should accept it. And I, and I I myself, there are things I've had to fix within myself because I thought about would I be comfortable if this was the environment or the experience of my child? 100% no. So why am I accepting this as the experience and environment of myself? And so if you can use that natural maternalness you have to re-mother, reparent yourself in service of a wider community, which are all natural instincts to you, that could be incredibly powerful. And there have been ways that I have been kinder to myself in service of my children because I wasn't able to just fix it for me. Again, going back to self-worth. Like I personally to myself at times have not felt for felt worth turning some things around. But when I frame it within the foundation of my progeny, when I or gratitude to my ancestors, I'm willing to do that extra work. And so if you have to use that to inspire yourself, do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:03

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Is there anything you're afraid of in putting this show out?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:11

Yes. Thank you for asking that question. So again, I'm Gen X, I'm 46. We got computers, maybe my freshman year of college. And so the public way of social media has never been my jam. I've never felt comfortable being out in the world. And so this feels full circle because we started the conversation around this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:33

Um I don't think everything needs to be public, and not every person needs to be public, but I do think the more you get in touch with this yourself, the more you will feel your own personal calling. I have felt through the work that I have done and receiving messages that I need to be in service to a wider community. I have very much enjoyed the safety of being a big fish in a small pond, right? And so now to be a small fish in a big pond feels really, really intimidating. But I think there's so much growth and opportunity and healing, even around these archetypes that are going to come from this. And so the perfectionist in me is gonna die a little bit, which I really want to get rid of that. She, I need her to leave. She is not helping me at all. She needs to leave the room. And she might always still be there because sometimes I do love her, especially when I do things to a level that I'm really proud of myself for. But I do think it will be really healing for me to be out in the public and to speak to people that I don't know. I'm really good at commanding a space full of people that I know or I'm in direct relationship with. It feels very unruly and very uncontrollable to be speaking to people that I cannot see, do not know, who can make judgments about who I am. But I think if I could kill that part of my ego that needs to be accepted and loved by everyone, then it'll I'll be much easier not to be a mammy mule or maid, right? Because at the core of all of those archetypes is acceptance and this false sense of security, right? If people accept me, they cannot hurt me. To your point earlier about sometimes you just have to experience things. I welcome all levels of feedback. I want to hear what people are saying. I'm definitely not going to entertain racists or sexist people or any of those things. But like I honestly want to have a wider conversation with people who agree with me and people who don't. Because I think there's things that I need to learn from others, but I also just need to be comfortable with being out in the world. And so this is this is not necessarily easy or familiar to me, but I think if I'm going to hold hold space for conversations around breaking down the ways archetypes pull people back, this is critically part of that process and experience. And so, yeah, I'm I am hopeful. I am excited. I don't think I've ever been ready. I don't think I could have done this a day, a week, a month, a year before now. I'm so grateful for my healing that I've been spending so much time just being with myself and being really present to what comes up for me because when it was time, it was time. I didn't do it because everybody has a podcast now, or you can't do anything, you can't make money, you can't be anything unless you're on social media with millions of followers. I'm doing this because this is a conversation I want to have with a lot of people. And I think we can learn with and from each other. And I'm really excited about holding space for that. And I feel equipped to do that, and it's something I genuinely want to do. Not because I have to, but because I want to and I feel called to. And that feels beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:36

Yeah. I agree. Is there anything else that you you want to offer in this first episode before we close out?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:48

I don't think so. I feel really full, and so I thank you so much as my dear, dear friend for holding this conversation with me. I don't know if I could have done it. You're one of my favorite people in the world, and so I just want to say like so much thankful thankfulness for you holding my hand through this first step. I do want to flag that this is going to be a generational conversation. Every podcast, I want to interview someone who is Gen Z, millennial, Gen X, Boomer, because I think those conversations are really nuanced and robust and different. I do really want, y'all, I've been on social media before. I never checked comments because my fragile eagle couldn't handle it, but I will be checking comments because I do want to hear what people are thinking and feeling. I do want to hear what people want. I want to co-author this podcast with the listeners. I want us to sit in discomfort with each other. I want us to hold mirrors up for each other. I want us to not feel as alone as we unpack these things within ourselves that no longer serve us. I'm gonna make mistakes, but I'm okay with that. You all can make mistakes with me. I'm okay with that too. And we'll just learn together. And I do feel like this isn't this is a conversation that is bigger than just this podcast or this experience. I feel like this is a conversation that's kind of brewing in the world, in the Astros. Like it's there, it's just there. And so if I could just be a little part of this bigger conversation that we're all being called to have right now about what's next and how will it be better because this isn't working, um, I would be just so grateful to be part of that conversation and help facilitate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:27

Thank you for doing this, Naomi. You're so welcome. There's it was honestly a pleasure. There's no doubt in my mind that that intention that you've set is already in motion. Thank you for letting me be a part of it with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:38

Crystal, can you tell everyone? Because I'm gonna play this on my podcast, but you're gonna play it on yours. Can you tell everyone about your podcast so they can tune into you as well?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:46

Yeah, absolutely. So my show is called the Aura Lab, and it's a great place to tune in. We do a lot of work like this, but through a very mystical spiritual lens. So I really go deep into intuition, ancestors. Um, I'm a human design and gene keys reader and practitioner, so that's often the focus. Astrology is really showing up a lot these days in the Aura Lab, too. I'm really looking at the individual being and how we fit into the collective and what that means as far as how we relate, what gifts we're here to share, and how we really get those out into the world in a really viable and powerful way. So come hang out with me there. I'm there every Monday and would love to have you tune in.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:26

It's amazing. I love your podcast. So, yes, I do highly recommend. Thank you so much again for your time and for holding space for me as I launch this into the world. I love you. I love you too. Thank you for witnessing my podcast origin story. And before you go, if this conversation resonated with you, I'd really love you to stay connected to this community. Please take a moment to like, subscribe, follow, leave a review, all the things. It genuinely helps more people find these conversations, and more importantly, helps this community of black women and fellow seekers to continue to grow. And if there was a moment in this episode that made you think of someone you love, a friend, a sister, a mother, a coworker, please share it with them. I really believe these conversations are meant to be experienced in community. If you're new here, I also invite you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes from this season. So much of what we explored in today's conversation has continued to evolve through the stories and wisdom of the incredible women I've interviewed so far. You can also follow me on TikTok at Michaela Unmuted, where I share reflections, cultural commentary, and pieces of these conversations in real time. And every month we gather on YouTube Live for deeper conversations with guests from the podcast. Conversations that are often messier, more expansive, more communal, and honestly, some of my favorite parts of this whole process. So make sure you check those out over on YouTube on my channel, Michaela Unmuted. Thank you all so much for being here, for listening, for growing with me, and for allowing this podcast to unfold into what it is becoming. I'll see you all next episode.