Growing Your Own Nitrogen With Hairy Vetch

In this episode of Under the Covers, Bill and James dig into hairy vetch and the idea of growing your own nitrogen.

Hairy vetch is a winter-hardy legume with the potential to provide serious nitrogen ahead of corn, but like most things in farming, it comes with a few “well, it depends” moments. The guys talk through what makes hairy vetch exciting, what makes it tricky, and why variety selection matters more than people might think.

They also discuss their own cover crop trials comparing different vetch sources, the risk of winterkill, hard seed concerns, and why seed origin matters when trying to ensure survival through an Iowa winter. SPOILER: Not all hairy vetch is created equal and you're going to learn from our failures.

The conversation also covers mustard as a cover crop, its potential for natural fumigation, and planting green into living cover crops.

If you’ve ever wondered whether hairy vetch could help reduce nitrogen inputs, or if planting green still makes you a little nervous, this one’s for you.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Under the Covers, where all of our cards are on the table, whether we meant to play them or not. I'm Bill. And I'm James. We're the founders of Iowa Cover Crop, and we disagree about nearly everything. These are the same conversations we've been having for years. It starts with farming and usually ends up somewhere else. No script, no sales pitch, no guarantees, we're right. To keep this from turning into a three-hour debate, we play a game of cribbage while we talk. When the game's over, the episode is over. Somebody's probably wrong. Someone's definitely losing. This is under the covers.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Hey.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

How are you? I'm good. You? Last time I saw you. Security. Last time I saw you, we're at Twin Shop. Twin Shop opened yesterday. I would call that a regional holiday. Do you do twin shop? Like, do you get the same thing at Twin Shop? Uh what's your go-to?

SPEAKER_01 1:02

I'm a little hesitant to tell everybody because I don't want it to be gone when I get there. They run out of things? Lemon Bar is so good. So you're a hard pack person. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Gotta be hard pack. I last year I've I've definitely I've started with Blizzards. What do they call them? They're blizzards.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Oh, I don't know. Frosty. No, that's Wendy's. Uh Blizzards. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

I just order blizzards, even though I know they're not called Blizzards. Um and um so I've been typically doing that.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

How am I at? Six. Yeah, yeah. That's uh this is enough.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Oh, so I've typically been doing blizzards, but then last season I switched to hard pack.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Oh, really? Yeah. Do you think that's like you're 40 now, your tastes have matured?

SPEAKER_02 1:50

I have one too many cars, but you just are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_01 1:54

This is not a good start.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Uh-uh. That was my good one. Um, have my taste matured? Yeah, probably probably. Yeah. I've matured, Bill. What do you go for? Um, I am not a lemon bar guy. I I don't like like the sweet, like sweet ice cream. I like more like chocolate. Oh, yeah. Which is sweet. Yeah, yeah. Which difference between there's completely difference between yeah, those two types of chocolates.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Good grief. What am I gonna throw you? Oh, I don't know. I don't do that. Um boy, this is tough.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Uh so yeah, twin shops open. Summer's here. It's super warm outside. Gosh, it's warm. Yeah. Probably when this podcast airs will be warm.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

That's why I'm wearing this shirt here.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

So we have we've everything planted. Well, I almost got everything planted. That's gonna be good for me.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Yeah. We are here today to talk about mostly hairy vetch, but also like crops that we're planting ahead of our crops.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

You know what we know what we forgot to do, though? No. We forgot to say like under the live. Yeah, we forgot to do that. We're gonna have to probably redo this whole podcast. Take two. Tola's gonna have to get the snapper out. Isn't that the official name? Yeah, snapper. Yeah, I believe it's the clapper. Oh, the clapper. Well, while we're talking about venereal diseases, Bill, what is your favorite plant that sounds like a venereal disease?

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Harry Vetch. We can't use any of this.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Yeah, we're gonna use all of this. This is unfiltered, is what they say on the yeah. 2531. Oh. Uh yeah, so Harry Vetch. We've been diving deeper into it. Oh shoot, sorry. Diving deeper into Harry Vetch. I'm gonna say that with a straight face.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

I'm gonna grill you about your Harry Vetch experience today because you have played around with it more than I have. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Um I'm on probably year two or so. Two, maybe three.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

I think, okay, so explain to me what Harry Vetch is.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Yep, Harry Vetch is a legume that overwinters. Okay. And it grows very fast in the spring, moderately fast in the fall. I'd say actually slow to moderately fast in the fall, but fast in the spring. And if let go to all maturity, it can produce via the internet up to 200 pounds of nitrogen. Whoa. If you just let it go. It's one of like the highest nitrogen-producing legumes you can plant.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

And that's like when it's flowering, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Like yes, when it's flowering.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Okay. Cool. So pretty good at like weed suppression. Yep. And it's not a grass, so a head of corn. Yep. That's pretty handy. That's a that's a good hand you gotta do. That's a good hand if there was a 10. There's only yeah, 115, but that's pretty good. It looks better than it is, actually.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Yeah, it's actually only six.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Oh well. Um okay. So why are you planting it?

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Well, I'm cheap. Uh-huh. And I also believe in nature. Don't we all really believe in nature a little bit? Like we believe on like, you know, how we can use it so we don't have to, you know, don't have to pay the man. Yeah. And so I'm using it so I can get ground cover and I can also fix nitrogen. Um, so also another thing about Harry Vetch that I didn't mention earlier is it has a lower carbon to nitrogen ratio, which means it breaks down so much quicker than grasses. And the faster it breaks down, the less like nitrogen tie-up you're gonna have if you plant corn into it.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Because that's what we run into with like rye, right? Yes. Very heavy carbon to nitrogen ratio.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

And corn on corn. Like anytime you have something that breaks down slow, the nitrogen actually is used to break down the residue rather than used in the plant. Um, back when nitrogen was really cheap, as my dad talks about it, um they used to use nitrogen like urea in the fall just to break down the corn. Oh. Yeah. So that's kind of different.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Yeah. Probably not great.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

No, but I just think it was like that's how they could raise corn on corn with mobile plows. Right. Which they also did that too. Right. So, um, so yeah, so Harry Vetch is more expensive though, as a cover crop. So that's probably one of its downfalls is it's just more expensive.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

You had a trial going on this year that we talked about earlier. Yep. Did you follow through with that trial? Did you actually get some science out of it?

SPEAKER_02 7:44

So my hairy vetch experiment this year was um, lack of a better word, a disaster. Okay. Um, we had it came up good uh right away in the fall, but I did get it planted kind of late. Um, I got it planted like in the 15th of October, which is probably too late for like hairy vetch because it's got to overwinter. Sure. And so what happened was my vetch didn't overwinter the best. And then it actually came out pretty good in the spring. But if you remember, we had that like really warm in February, and then it got that cold snap like end of February, first of March. Yeah. So it came out of dormancy and then it got smoked.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Which happened to a lot of stuff this year that we've never seen before.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Yes, happened to winter camelina in a lot of spots, even like some grasses, yeah, like perennial grasses. Yeah, we had a smooth brome field that a neighbor had that went out. Um weird 25, yeah. 26. Uh, so 27. Uh go. Yeah, so my vetch was a failure mostly, but it also I I learned a lot from this year. So I had um 160 acres total, and I had four different varieties of hairy vetch. Well, actually, one I had Hungarian vetch, which isn't hairy vetch. Bill, why don't you, while I count, you tell them about the different types of vetches.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

I don't know them. You don't know why? No, I'm not the hairy vetchkay, you're the hairy vetchkay.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

Oh man, well, I gotta count.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

You you think I knew Hungarian vetch? I assumed you did. You give me too much credit. That's never gonna work. Uh so your goal with this was basically to see like which one thrived the most in our climate, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:49

So the problem with Harry Vetch in our climate is it winter kills. And like that's the hardest, the that's the biggest drawback to Harry Vetch is it will winter kill, and then you don't get anything, essentially. Right. And so vetches come from Harry Vetch comes from essentially three places, four places. I guess that's basically all the continents, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Seven, I think.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

Well, nothing nothing.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Well, can you verify for that? Is there seven continents? Are there any plants?

SPEAKER_02 10:27

Are there any plants on Antarctica?

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Uh man, it's been a long time since like geography class or something.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

You know we had a neighbor that went to Antarctica?

SPEAKER_01 10:38

No. I'd like to go.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Yeah. Um yeah, we we have a neighbor that went to Antarctica. What'd they find? Ice. Hairy vetch? I don't think they found hairy vetch. No. Um okay, so hairy vetch basically can be grown in three spots for seed as you see it here today, and it'll be labeled V and S. So it's there's very few varieties of hairy vetch. There's only like three of them. Um one variety that you see most of it's cumerit. AU means I don't know. Australia? Oh Australian hairy vetch. Sure. Yeah. Come on, Bill. Are you in the seed business? Not in the hairy vetch business. So hairy vetch comes from Australia. There's a lot that gets grown in Argentina, some get grown in Spain. And all pretty warm places. Warm places. Some in Canada.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

And then some in Oregon, Washington. So for the most part, so since our inception, we buy the cheapest hairy vetch because we didn't know anything about it. And the cheapest hairy vetch typically comes from Argentina.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Right. Which is not necessarily what we're looking for in our winter time.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

No. So it is not, we've had only, you know, for the first five, six years, like we're like, oh, we'll sell you this, but probably won't grow, which kind of happened. Um, because we had the wrong varieties. Right. But now we're learning, and we're trying to get the right varieties. So in my trial, I had Hungarian vetch, and then I had um vetch from Canada.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

30 for three.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

And then I had really?

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Yeah. King Queen Jack. Even though it went. It doesn't matter as long as it's not interrupted. As long as they're not like interrupted by something. Yeah. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

Are you sure?

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Book a oil it.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

For no, uh give it a go. That's fine. Okay. 13 or 14. 17.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

27.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

29. All right. So I had Hungarian vetch, which is a variety of vatch that came from Europe. Yeah. It's not hairy vatch, it's completely different. It doesn't get as tall. It produces more seed. And so if it produces more seed, it's cheaper, essentially. Right. Um, and then I had uh Canadian hairy vetch, which is supposed to be more uh tolerant to cold, cold tolerant. Then I had our vetch that we're really excited about that's out of Washington. We're calling it Sub-Zero.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

Patent protected, trademarked.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Yeah, TM.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

TM. Sub-Zero. And then I had some old stuff from Spain that's been in the warehouse for a long time. And in the fall, the Spanish vetch came up actually really, really good. And I was like, oh man, the stuff that's been soaking in the warehouse since 2018. It was actually bags from the Quantum.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

So they'd been around literally since 2019. Nice. Um and so I gotta do a little counting. And so, yeah, I had those four varieties and I planted on 160 acres. So I basically had 40 of each. Even though it wasn't quite 40, because but for science. Sure. That's why I said we don't do trials because we're not science oriented. We're not science oriented. All right, let me count this and I'll explain more of my trial.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

But you can talk about common vetch. Do you know what common vatch is?

SPEAKER_01 14:43

I don't know. Yeah, I'm not a vetch guy. Or crown vetch? Here's what I know. I and we can get into this later about maybe a drawback of vetches, but uh I see vetch in my ditches that was put there probably 60 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Do you think it's the same? Do you think it's just wild vetch? Yeah, we didn't put it there. Well then why are you concerned about it?

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Because I think it has the ability to be pretty aggressive and stick around. Doesn't everything at least if it's not in the right spot, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

Are these mine? Yes. Okay. Well, why'd you give me these good cards?

SPEAKER_01 15:19

I didn't have a choice. I really did give you a lot of good cards.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

You you really did.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Um so the Spanish fetch came up early and looked the best.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Yes. And that's what I so like we expected the Spanish vets to fail, like to be the worst one. So when it came up great, I was like, oh man, maybe we're it was the cheapest fetch too. So I'm like, maybe we screwed up here and we've spent a lot of money. And so the Spanish vetch came up, looked good in the fall. Then spring came along, it looked pretty good right away in the spring. Then that frost came in, smoked it. Yeah. Okay. The Canadian vetch broke dormancy latest, later, okay. As you'd expect because it's from Manitoba or Saskatchewan, one of the two, it doesn't matter. Prairies. And it broke dormancy later, and then it um came up in the spring and just was like spin lean wasn't that good. The Hungarian vetch didn't come up very good in the fall, and then didn't come up at all in the spring. It was a complete failure. The West Coast vetch, sub-zero, kind of was wimpy in the spring or in the fall, and then was kind of wimpy right out of the gate. But then I learned something. All of the West Coast vetch came up like it were there was we had this tour with Iowa Swimming Association that came out. I was like, you shouldn't even do it because I have nothing here, and it's like really kind of embarrassing. And they're like, no, no, you're already on the list, and you know, we want someone to do this. It's like, okay, whatever. And um, and so there's nothing there. And then I went out and planted it, and it was everywhere. And so all that West Coast vetch, it just broke dormancy just enough later. And I think it needed a little bit of moisture, which we got late, and then it just took off to the point that I was like, oh, I this is I kind of better get, you know, I was like, this is actually a lot of vetch in here. Um have you killed it all now? It's all dead. Now it is all dead. And the problem is, is in my little experiment, is I I didn't want to like I should have probably waited to kill it, but it was only in like uh 25, 30 acres of this field. And I'm like, I don't want to spray my whole thing again. And so I just did, I just killed it.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

And this is gonna be corn.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

It was corn on corn.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

So it's corn, I bailed the corn stalks, put in the vetch, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Okay. So you would have drilled it, you drilled it. I drilled it, but I drilled it late. Like mid-October?

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Yes, October 15th-ish.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

God just gave you so many points.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

So in we've talked to a lot of smart people about this. Yes. The thing about the nitrogen credit that I bump into is if you're gonna get that nitrogen credit, you have to wait for it to like leave vegetative stage and get into reproductive stage, which is probably like right now, mid to late May, right? This podcast is ahead. So mid to late May. Yeah. Is when you're really gonna start packing on nitrogen.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

It all depends on your growing degree days, which our growing degree days this year we're behind. We're so weird, yeah. So there's no really great way of knowing.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Come on, double me up, double me up.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Double me up?

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

I'm crazy. I'll do it.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

Do it.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

I'm not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Okay, all right, she's gonna take the points. All right, so yeah. So um yeah, so uh 30 for three. You had the jack, you could have doubled me. I got scared. I'm out of cards. Oh, geez. So, so I learned some things, and this is what I'm gonna do next year. I'm actually really excited about vetch because as nitrogen is getting more expensive, the vetch is kind of becoming more valuable. And actually, the vetch is not getting more expensive, it's actually getting slightly cheaper. Sure. I probably shouldn't tell people that. But as you get more of things and it gets more popular, actually, it becomes a commodity, it gets cheaper. Yeah. I gave you so many points on the side.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Well, so in you're becoming an organic farmer.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

My friend and your friend, Dusty, uh, he has a hard and fast rule where he will not plant his organic corn before I want to say it's May 15th. What is it? Like a squirrel's ear on a uh an oak's leaf should be the size of a squirrel's ear, yeah. Yeah. But he he will not plant before that because he's had too many bad experiences trying to push the date into like April when conventional guys are planting. And so it actually works better for your situation where guys are because it's just tough for like conventional guys like me to sit around and wait and watch all these good planting days go by.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

You just can't take the social pressure.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

I can't take it. I gotta be in the club.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

I don't know why you're so I don't know why you're so worried about it. You have two combines.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Well, every I I know everyone's looking up to me as a BTO.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Please cite episode three. So yeah, so if you're gonna do Harry Vetch, you probably need to wait till at least 1st of May to plant it.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Yeah, because it it look it starts to like the end credit grows exponentially as you wait, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:12

And yes, the end credit grows exponentially, and physically the vetch grows exponentially.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Like there's a big difference between the first you know, couple weeks or the end of April and the first couple weeks of so like Do you do you anticipate like using this in your organic rotation as weed suppression? And then like, how are you going to kill it? Like, are you gonna how are you gonna till it under so that you can plant corn into it?

SPEAKER_02 21:46

So I have a conventional farm that's about double the size of my organic farm. So in my organic or my conventional setting, I'm gonna because I also do high moisture corn, so I can get it in earlier. I I'm thinking. I can maybe get it in earlier and I can maybe push my planting day ahead. Okay. If that makes a sense. Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to get in earlier and then because you're getting more growing degree days in the fall. Yeah. And I don't know if that's actually true. If I'll be able to get more nitrogen. But at the same time, I mean, I'm a good farmer, so I go to USGA office and I'm going to get as much money as possible. So they're going to pay me to put it in with and we'll talk about that at future podcasts. But but they're going to pay me to put it in. So I just as well try to get something that I get nitrogen from. Even though it might be a little bit more expensive, because it will be more expensive. It'll be about $10 an acre more expensive. Sure. But that means I only really got to get 10 10 pounds of nitrogen. Because nitrogen this year is probably going to be a dollar plus. Right. If it isn't already.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Yeah, that's a real thing to think about when we're, you know, still in the Iran war and still there. And fertilizer prices are going to be high, and um it's something to think about.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

It's a real Yeah, I mean, hopefully we come to a resolution, but even if we did come to resolution, we aren't going to get like, what is it 21, 22 when like nitrogen prices were like 30 cents a unit? Right. Like we might get down to 60, 70, 80, but we're not going to get to 30.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

So why not use nature to sequester some nitrogen for you? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Okay, so on my conventional system, I'm gonna put it in after high moisture corn or soybeans. I've actually planted earlier soybeans so I can get in my hairy vetch earlier.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Okay. We have so we have a dealer who is south. He's actually in uh well, Kansas, but Kansas Missouri line. Yep. Um and it's it's not that far south, but it's enough south that it makes a big difference in his huge difference seasons. Um and he has tremendous luck with it. Like he can't say enough good things about it. And he's a real BTO. He's uh not like us, not like Bill.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

He has two combines that are worth both of them are worth something, not just one of them. Uh but then we also have a farmer here in Jefferson who's been I actually have more experience with Harry Vetch than I do.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

And um we've learned a lot from him, and he is he's in love too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

So yeah, it can definitely work, but I think it's gonna like it, it will take patience, right? To like really let it do its thing.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

But if if nitrogen is worth um if nitrogen is worth a dollar a pound, and let's just say you just get 50 pounds out of it, yeah, then that's that's a lot of money. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

What do you see as potential negatives?

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Um, so Harry Vetch has a bad reputation of hard seeding.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Um 29. 29. I'll go. Uh has a a bad reputation for hard seeding.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

And which means it has seed that will like not open up the first year and it'll come back in the second year.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

Yes. What and why, as farmers that use chemicals, are we ever concerned about hard seeds?

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Yeah, I don't think I don't think for the normal corn bean farmer it's a big deal. For you and I, who are raising oats or wheat or rye for the seed, you know, for cover crop seed, then we're getting uh hairy vetch into that seed, which we've had, and we have to like explain what it is, figure out who we're gonna sell it to that'll be okay with it.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Yeah, I can see getting um blackballed out of my own seed business because I've you have hairy vetch and everything. Yes, I could see that happening. But I mean, okay, I might get blackballed out of selling rye to Iowa cover crop, but then if it works, I don't have any nitrogen costs. Yeah. So that'd be kind of exciting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Yeah, other than that, I mean, it is that's probably the biggest thing I worry about is yeah, the hard seed and and just its aggressiveness if it's not contained. But like otherwise, what a fun crop.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Yeah, and so in my organic setting, I'll probably do it a little differently because I'll have small grains and then I can put hairy vetch in it super early. And so then I know I'm gonna have a successful hairy vetch stand, and I'll have a success accessor overwinter, and because you're planting later anyway, you'll have the balls to let the hairy vetch grow longer.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Yeah. Yep. We had we had a great one of our first really good loyal customers was an organic guy in Green County, and he um was yeah, he was organic and he wanted to plant vetch and crimp it ahead of his corn. Yep, and he tried it many times. I don't think he found the success he was looking for.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Do you think it was because we were selling him Argentine and hairy vetch?

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Uh I hope not.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

I I don't know, but I was thinking about that the other day because he'd put on huge rates, like 60 pounds. Yeah, he'd load it up. But he was just buying VNS vetch. What if we were selling him the wrong stuff the whole time?

SPEAKER_01 27:48

His goal was to, yeah, to do no-till organic, because he was roller crimping rye out of his beans, and then he was gonna roller crimp his hairy vetch ahead of his corn and just essentially never till, which would be pretty cool in an organic operation. But it I know he never got it quite. I mean, he raised crops, um, but I know he was never satisfied with what he did.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Didn't want it either be too thin or too thick.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

I think that was part of it. I think part of it was um I think he had a little trouble maybe like even crimping it. Oh um I don't know if that's entirely right or not, but I I'm pretty sure that was part of the trouble. Um but that would I I don't know, maybe that maybe we just need to try some more stuff. You should put that in your trial next year.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

I'm just gonna so I went from 160 acres, I'm gonna do like thousand acres, very veg. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

I can't wait to make that sale.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

Yeah, it's gonna be a good sale. I'm gonna buy it early, I think, because that's where all the savings are gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

You think so? Is that the thing about cover crop seed usually? Is buy early and get a better deal? Yeah, that's always the thing about cover crop seed. I would 80% of the time it's a thing, right? Probably is, yeah. At least 80%. You better discard. I caught you cheating last time. I'm not letting you get away with it this time.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

I give you points.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Oh. Geez.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

You can't afford to be doing gang. Oh seven. That's not what I wanted. No. Um, so okay, so that's one thing.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Yeah, do you want to talk more about Vetch or do you want to talk more?

SPEAKER_02 29:33

No, I want to move on to some other things that both you and I are doing that is very pertinent to this too. You're doing something this year.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Right now, that my dad said I I could not do while my grandparents were still alive. Plant mustard. Plant mustard. Because they spent their entire lives trying to kill mustard.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

You know, I have some wild mustard. I planted mustard, white and yellow mustard, which it is planted everywhere else in the United States. And it's isn't a weed, just FYI. Like as a few. With modern chemicals, probably not that big of a deal. Yeah, but so I had this argument actually. Well, okay, first off, my dad sometimes doesn't know what I do, so I just do it, and then he's like, What'd you plant? I said, mustard.

unknown 30:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

He's like all right. So um okay, I gotta start. Um anyway, I planted mustard, rolled it, it came up. It's kind of slow because it was slow, it's it's yours. Um go. Perfect. Uh, and it's probably right now about knee high, and mustard's supposed to be a um natural fumigant. And so I'm planting organic beans behind it. But my point was is what's it fumigating? Like nematodes, funguses, Bill. Funk, that's what fumigants are. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Jeez. I am just I'm here for the people.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Anyway, um, but there's some wild mustard right next to my planted mustard. Yeah. And it looks completely different. I will do a video on it because I don't know the difference. Yeah. But wild oats are different than normal oats. Right. So, like, you don't ever get concerned about planting oats with wild oats in it. Right. Wild oats are weed. Right. Uh, so I'm not that concerned about the mustard.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Yeah, and I don't think you need to be. But it's the name, like the name makes your father and my father's generation perk up.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

Yeah. So then I had this conversation with our supplier on the West Coast, and I said, Oh, mustard, hard seed's horrible. Like, I'm very worried about this. Not so much as a weed, but as hard seed. And he's like, What are you talking about? It hard seeds at like less than 1%. Whereas brassicas, radish, and turnips is like 10% hard seed. He's like, if you're worried about, if you knowingly plant radish, you're gonna have more hard seed than you are with.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Yeah. Because they've bred it to be a crop, essentially. I mean, like it's a crop, yeah. This is we're getting down to the wire here. James has 12 points to get to the to this home stretch here, and I think it's gonna be about tied here after I count.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

So I so I have I have the mustard that I'm we'll see. We'll see what happens there. I just I actually have been wanting to try it because I've sold uh some mustard to organic guys, and like they kind of keep buying it, and so I mostly just wanna see what it's all about. Yeah, I gave you those points by the way. Thank you. So um of course you get to count first. Why is it always core, yeah? Yeah, you get to count first and I would have won. Oh, the game's rigged. Yeah, I know it is.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Uh okay, so last thing I want to. So how are you gonna you're just gonna like disc that down or what are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Yeah, so I am a I'm a complete hypocrite. Half my farm is is conventional where I'm doing no-till and using cover crops and planting grain and doing hairy vetch and strip-tilling and all the buzzwords. Right. And then the other half is organic where I do a lot of tillage. Like a lot of tillage.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

I don't know if that's being a hypocrite. I mean, you could argue you can make a good argument for both systems.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

I don't believe in no-till organic. I don't know if that's possible.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

It seems tough. It seems tough. You have to have nature working for you all the time.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

I don't know too many successful or organic guys that do believe in it.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

No, I think the successful organic guys do like more tills than they should.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Some. I mean, like, you know, we've got some progressive guys in the area that try to see how little tillage they can get away with in years, you know, roller crimping ahead of beans or whatever, but um, but yeah, they're definitely not gonna say no till is the way to go.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

So one thing I want to talk to you, Bill about is planting green. Yeah. Planting soybeans green. How long have you been planting green? How many years have you been doing it?

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Um probably five-ish. Um, yeah, and I I I think ideally I would do all my acres. Sometimes it doesn't exactly work out that way, but um yeah, I don't I don't really see a downside to that system.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

That's what I was gonna ask you about. I've been doing it, this is my fourth year. And um, I don't know if I plant beans any other way now.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

I I have been bitten once.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

Must have been the year that I didn't do it.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

It was like, well, it I had planted all of my stuff and it rained once, and I couldn't get back in the field for a while, and I had one field of beans left to plant, and my rye was pretty big, and it was like the second or third drought year, so we had no water in the water table. It was just and in like July, I started to notice the beans were kind of falling off compared to all of its neighbors, um, and I think they just ran out of water is all that happened.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

And I haven't been bit yet, which is good. Yeah. Um but then what I want to talk to you about was why isn't everyone planting green? Because like the yields are just as good. I don't take so much less fuel, takes so much less herbicide. What's it we aren't smart? It is I know you aren't smart. So maybe and maybe that helps, right? Because I just insulted you and you didn't.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Yeah, I'm used to it. I'm numb. 27. Uh go. It even like, even though I know it works, every time I do it when it's like above my knee, I'm a little nervous about it, right? Because it's like it's it's almost a little counterintuitive, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:26

Did you watch my Facebook video? I was doing it, yeah. And I was like, it's like flying in the clouds, yeah. It's the same thing, exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yeah, it doesn't, it's I don't know. It's like for me at least, it makes me a little nervous every time. But as long as you're getting the seed in the ground and the trench is closing. What's it matter? The best part, the best part about it is if you do it last, your planter goes through and it gets brushed off by all that green grass and it's 100% clean. It's the only time I ever put my planter away clean. Like the cleanest tires ever.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

Yeah. Well, they're green. You know, they're kind of greenish. They got the green tint. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

But yeah, I don't I don't know. I I think that's just it is like going over that hurdle of I'm out, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

Yeah, I figured you were.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Um it is uncomfortable to do. And it gets more comfortable the more you do it, but it is uncomfortable the first time you do it.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

I can see if you didn't have guidance, it would be hard.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Oh, I it'd be nearly impossible. I've done it without guidance, and it is not worth doing.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

No, I can see how that would be very stressful.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

But with guidance? Yeah, if you've got a if you have a no-till planner and guidance, there's no reason not to do it.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

Yeah. So I so a little thing since we're on this, and this might go a little long because Bill just won this game again. Uh, I feel like I feel like I'm the Chicago White Sox over here. Well, hey, they're having a good year. Are they? Yeah, okay. Anyway, um, so I planted um about 300-ish beans on April 22nd, April 23rd, which is the two dates that everyone had to replant here.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Yeah, because they're like crusted over, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:12

Because we had a big rain like the 24th or 5th. Yeah, and then some hail, if you remember, just a little bit of hail. And it was cold, it was hard rain. Yep. Um, anyway, so I planted 300 acres of of beans, and um 250 of them I were planted green because the 50 I just rented and it was not, and it was actually ripped and then field cultivated, and then so like very conventional, very conventional. And guess which field I had to replant. Not the green one, not the green. The stands are like 120,000 on the green one, and the conventional one is garbage, like 10,000, 15,000. Had to tear them all up, start again. So, like, not only did I I didn't rip it, but someone had to rip it. Someone ripped it, field cultivated it, then I had to planted it, then I field cultivated again. Uh-huh. Like, what a waste of fuel. Every time I go out there, it's like it's expensive, but it's scary. It is scary.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

It it is though, like I I am not afraid of introducing my neighbors to that practice anymore. I'm not either. Because I've tested it enough that I'm like, it's gonna be scary and it's gonna work great. It's kind of like planting CRP. Every time I plant it, I think this is not gonna work. And then every time I do it, it works.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

And you have some great CRP fields. And you know, and the cool thing about those CRP fields is like it was scary. And I I look at the first ones we did, like that one of Hamilton's along the road. I was just thinking about this the other day. That's one of the first ones we did, and that was a big chunk, like 60 acres right along Highway 3. Right on the highway, yeah. Right on the highway. Boy, it's a good thing that one worked out. It's a really good stand, by the way. Yeah, looks good. Yeah, I don't know where we got about that, but it's true. Uh it's scary, but I think in 10 years it'll be pretty normal.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

It definitely should be if people are paying attention.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

Yeah. So if if fuel prices are high, herbicide prices are high, the nitrogen machine keeps on running. Why not? It's you know, it's so I think guys are gonna, and I think it's becoming a little bit more socially accepted. Yeah. So well uh we really stayed on topic.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 40:37

More than the last one.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

Yeah, well, a low bar. Yeah, but uh we'll be back in a couple weeks. And um maybe, yeah. Cash, Harry Vetch, not just a fun name, but a fun plant.

SPEAKER_02 40:52

Yeah, not just uh not just your favorite plant that sounds like uh venereal disease. Uh see ya!

SPEAKER_01 41:00

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