THE CATALYST
The Catalyst is a long-form video and audio podcast exploring identity and belonging, culture, belief systems, power, and change in a rapidly transforming world.
Through honest conversations, personal narratives, and cultural analysis, we examine who we are, who we were, and who we are becoming — as Africans at home and in the diaspora.
This is a space for generational dialogue, cultural introspection, and conscious evolution.
Hosted by Ifeanyi Nwanonaku
.
Welcome to The Catalyst World.
THE CATALYST
What Happens When You Forget Home? Migration, Identity & Finding Your Way Back
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What does leaving home really cost us?
Chileshe reflects on growing up in Zambia, building a life in Canada, and returning home years later to rediscover what
family and community truly mean.
The conversation explores migration, grief, faith, therapy, motherhood, creativity, obligation and belonging—and asks
whether home is a place, a people or a part of ourselves we must learn to remember.
Hosted by Ifeanyi Nwanonaku. Produced by IgnitePoint Studio for The Catalyst.
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There are moments when a culture reaches a quiet breaking point. Not loud, not dramatic, just a slow realization that something isn't working anymore. The catalyst exists for those moments. This is a space where we question what we inherited. Examine who we are becoming and explore what it means to evolve without losing ourselves. I am Ifani Wanonako. Welcome to the catalyst. Today I sit down. I'm smiling because it's the familiar face today in the studio, right? Um normally when I have guests, I do I do like a very official introduction, but I don't feel like I need to do that because the person who is sitting right here in the studio is someone that I can call a friend, you know, a family. And her name is Chileche.
SPEAKER_02Chileche.
SPEAKER_00Chileche.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Chi Chi.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the catalyst.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. So happy to be here.
SPEAKER_00Nice. You know, the first time, the first time we met, if you remember, Fort Mile walk doing a fire clean job. I thought you were Nigerian.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00And then when you said your name was Chi Chi, I said, okay, what part of Anambra are you from?
SPEAKER_02I remember. And every time I meet Nigerians and they ask me where I'm from, I say Anambra.
SPEAKER_00And they laugh.
SPEAKER_02They're like, how do you even know that? I said, because I'm from there. But hey, we're all similar.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Interesting, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. You know, we we all come from somewhere, right? Um, and life itself is like a journey. Um, so I want this to be a reflection, a reflection of our journeys, personal journeys, our journeys as a people, um, you know, our culture. Um, so when we leave home, you know, sometimes there are things that we we left behind. You know, we're excited to move on to a new country, uh, which is a good thing, you know, good experience, um, good opportunity new opportunities for us, right? But um at some point you begin to realize that there are things that you are forgetting about you. You know, so have you ever thought that immigration always feels like always feels like it makes us to have two versions of ourselves, you know? Absolutely. One version is the one you develop while you're surviving here, and the other version is the one that people back home remember about you.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So, how do you reconcile that?
SPEAKER_02My goodness. Okay, so because I just got back from Zambia, I was there for six months, which was such a very enlightening experience. When I first got there, I actually forgot the true meaning behind family. Because I've been so used to being isolated in this country. I have met a lot of amazing friends, friendships from all over the place, uh, specifically here in Canada, that have become family, but it's not the same because you're only seeing those people maybe once every three weeks, sometimes once every three months, because we live such busy lives with work and everything. And when I got to Zambia six months ago, it was such a culture shock. The amount of people that were coming to see us. They were coming in every day. I'm start- I'm saying from 7 a.m. the first visitor arrives. And I was like, okay, that's not going to work because I'm sleeping.
SPEAKER_00What was the purpose of their visit?
SPEAKER_02Just to see myself and the baby. They were very excited to meet the baby and myself, yeah. Friends, family, mostly family. So they'll come over at least. We would have a minimum of five guests a day, and that's not something that I got used to being in this country. Is it was a bit of a shock, and I had to let them know like, can we minimize on the number of visitors coming? That's that's because I'm trying to adjust myself, you know, being in Zambia and getting used to so many people. But then as time went on, I realized that's what they really call the village. Because everyone just shows up for you. Yes. I had the opportunity to attend um some celebrations and some not so happy moments, and the amount of people that just come together instantly to be there for each other is so surreal. That is something that I don't see very often here in Canada.
SPEAKER_00Um there's a big um difference in the world. It was a big mindset. So let me ask you um before Canada, before you ever came here, the first time you ever came here, you know, before that migration happened, who was Chi Chi?
SPEAKER_02Wow, what a good question. Um I would say Zambia is where I grew all my values and beliefs in what I believe in now, in what I do now. Um being a balloon artist and just an artist in general, it all started from back home. You know, growing up, you know, some parents who push you to be um accountant, doctor, you name it. Yeah. But I was raised by my grandparents, and they actually encouraged me to be creative. Yeah, which was so different, you know. I had really good mentors throughout high school as well for my creative work. So I took my art very seriously, and that in itself is a true testament to what it has shaped my purpose to be today. If it wasn't for me being grounded in those values, beliefs, and true creative journey, I don't think I would have planted the seed for where I am here in Canada. I was also pretty much adventurous as always. I was raised to just be open to different scenarios. It's like my grandparents planted that seed. Say, wherever you go, just be yourself, whatever you do, just do your best. You know, those little values, they actually ended up working out in my favor in my adult years, because um life has shaped me in different directions, and they they planted the seed, that's what I can say. So even being here in Canada, when being an immigrant in a space of predominantly other races like white people, you kind of have a grounding to know where you come from, that nobody else can identify you from the outside, yeah, right? Because your roots are already inside, that the people outside is just noise, almost. Yeah. So that taught me to be where I am creatively, especially.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, just from there's also something special about people who spend time with grandparents. Yes. So imagine um you say something that strikes me a little bit, right? Um, so that tells me something about who we are, right? Before modernity, before um, you know, other outside cultures influence the the type of decision that we made for ourselves, right? Absolutely. Because the Western education, you know, the capitalist mindset will say, go to school and learn something that you can use to find a job, right? Now, I'm trying to figure out like that's what your parents wanted for you, because that was that was the thing at that time. That's the thing at that time. I'm pretty sure parents dream of parents dreamed about their children going to school to become a doctor, a lawyer, one of those white-collar polished jobs, right? But your grand grandparents, you know, the the in the old system, you know, they understood that the best way for someone to live their full potential is to the advice they give you, they give you, right? Is to you know be yourself, right? Do do what you are drawn to, do what's you know, whatever you feel that you are called for. Sometimes life should not just be followed, you know, um, in a straight line, you know, should not it should not just be lived, you know, chasing money or just to make that money, right? But you can also actually make that kind of decision and you win both sides, right? So I mean you you make the money and you still live to your full purpose in life. That's very important, and that's something that not a lot of people can say that they have done for themselves.
SPEAKER_02Really?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, interesting. Because a lot of people are, you know, a lot of people get into careers, right? Because they feel like they want to make money, right? They need to make it. They're attracted to that career because of other things, right? You know, maybe societal pressure, meeting pressure and all of that.
SPEAKER_02So no, um, yeah, I'm very proud of my grandparents for that, for instilling just whatever you feel called to do, do it. We will support you. I don't know if they really fully supported it in the moment. You know, I still had to convince them that I want to go to event school, I want to do this, I want to do tourism. They're like, okay, just do it. You uh coming from where I come from, growing up as a little girl, dreaming about even being in Canada is not something that is always attainable. A lot of my good friends that I grew up with are still stuck in the same place, not moved or anything. Um, but I just had a knowing that I won't be in Zambia for a long time. Yeah, I had a knowing since I was six years old that I won't be in Zambia. I had a knowing that I'm going to be in Canada. I knew the map of Canada before I even learned about it in school. Wow. Yes. So it was kind of a dream come true, though the circumstances that led up to it weren't the very best, but it still happened in the way that it happened because my grandparents fought really hard to make sure that I'm here.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Um when you first moved from Zambia to Canada, what do you think changed in you the most? Like when you look back to the first time you moved here to your yourself right now, what do you think changed in you the most over time?
SPEAKER_02How diverse the world is, right? Um, I mean Zambia is pretty um welcoming to foreigners, but those are tourists for the most part at the time. But living with people from different ethnicities, different backgrounds, different nationalities, different religious systems, I had to quickly learn that we're all different in a sense, that we're so diverse. And it's those differences that make up who we are as a community, learning in Canada specifically, because I'll give you an example. Zambia is a Christian nation, so there's some things that are frowned upon, different religious practices, different um people's, you know, personalities, the things that are just frowned upon, like you can't be this, you can't be that. And then you come to Canada, everyone's like, yeah, just just just this one, this this one is from this country, this person is from this background, and it just changes you to see that we're also different in a good way. Because a lot of people that have helped me here in Canada are not Christian, for example. They don't practice any sort of religion, and I've just learned a lot in shaping up my career path, you know, both at work and in my creative journey. So that community of being different has been a powerful move for myself because what I've learned here is what I'm able to teach people back home with what I know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, um, yeah, so there are good people, good people in every culture, right? You know, and regardless of religion, um because a lot of our people back home, um, we we are predominantly Christian. I mean, we are come from two predominant predominantly Christian now. Um, like the the Christianity in Africa, right? Um, the way they teach it, they tell you that if you are not religious, yeah, then you are probably not gonna be a good person.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. You're seeing it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, as I notice what you said now, uh I've I've also I've also experienced it. I've seen people who don't don't adhere to any um religious belief, but they are still good people, right? Like they still understand what it means to be human, right? To help each other, to support somebody when they are in need and stuff like that. So this is one of the things that we learn when we come out from our little bubbles, yeah. Because yeah, you get to see everybody, right? You see different cultures and all of us living together um relatively in harmony.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I've I've had an opportunity as well to travel to different, many different countries, and I've met many different kinds of people, right? You know, these countries I've I can't even mention how many, but that has really helped me look at the world differently in a way that I'm accepting of everyone, yeah, yeah, versus just having one kind of mindset, like I'm not going to interact with these people because I'm from Zambia, and that's the only type of people I'll be around. Like, you won't be successful if you just stay stuck in one category of people, right? You have to broaden your horizon, you have to broaden your network to meeting others and being open to others, and that's the one thing I always tell immigrants that are pretty new to Canada. My first advice is don't stay stuck in your community. Yes, your community is great, but you will have to meet other people in different places that will offer you opportunities that your community might not have. And that's been true for a lot of them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, obviously, yeah. I mean, you can't live in isolation when you have other communities here, right? Because the more you connect to um people from different backgrounds, whose backgrounds are different from yours, right? The more you get to learn some things about life, right? The more you get to learn that there is no just that is lots of other stuff about life, yeah. Yeah, there's lots of other other knowledge, you know, you know, because because your knowledge of the knowledge of what you have from your culture is just one.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00But when you interact with other cultures, you get to learn more, right? You get to learn this, you get to learn that.
SPEAKER_02And that works in your favor because now you're allowed to be.
SPEAKER_00Um, you know, most people we often talk about moving abroad, right? But we often don't talk about um the emotional cost of that, right? What's part of what has that part of experience taught you?
SPEAKER_02To put yourself out there.
SPEAKER_00I'm talking about like the emotional cost when you when you leave home, right, right? Right in a new country, right? There is definitely some kind of emotional cost, right? Because you're here with everything, all the connection he had, he left them back home, the people, your family, friends. Yes, they did not move with you here, right?
SPEAKER_02Oh yes, well, um, there's been a lot of unfortunate events, um, and some good ones. So there's been weddings, babies, you know, just fresh stuff happening back home. Then there's also been funerals that weighed really heavy on me personally because my grandparents ended up passing away within four years of moving here. So that felt like, why did I move to this country if the people that helped raise me are gone, right? It made me regret a lot of it at the time. Um it was challenging for a while. I got into different scenarios where I just lost purpose. I lost track of what I should be doing with my life at all. Because those are the people that shaped me. So now that they're not here to witness me grow, what is the point? Right? It was very heavy. It was very heavy having to go back to bury them versus having to go back to visit them because that was just within four years of me moving here. It cost me my faith as well. Uh, my belief system changed? It did change.
SPEAKER_00Or what did you believe before and what do you believe now?
SPEAKER_02I believed in the church.
SPEAKER_00You believed in the church? I did. But now you don't believe in the church? I believe in God. You believe in God, but not the church. No, but they say the church is the house of God.
SPEAKER_02It is the house of God, but that doesn't mean I do go to church once in a while. I I need to get better with that for sure. It's just that my personal relationship with God had to grow because I was angry at the church for not being there for me in a way that I thought they would be. Nobody really talks about death. People are not comfortable talking about death, people are very um scared, as if it's a very like taboo topic. So when you're going through grief that is so heavy and you don't know how to process it as a young adult, because I moved here when I was 18, seven 17 years ago when I was 18, and you don't know how to process heavy emotions like grief, you end up not having anyone to talk to, right? And you you think the church will be able to step in for that?
SPEAKER_00In this country?
SPEAKER_02It is a good church, don't get me wrong. Yeah, but it's just uh they just don't talk about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean we can talk about it though. Um, I mean, this place is a safe place, right? Because I created space where we can talk about things that are uncomfortable, right? Yeah, um, the catalyst, the reason why is this catalyst wants to start those kind of conversations that people will normally shy away from, right? Because I'll tell you my own experience, right? Because I feel when you said that I remember my own and I can agree with you because I experienced it, right? So imagine a new immigrant, right, from Nigeria. When I was back home, I was like everybody that knew me would tell you that like I'm always in church, I'm number one.
SPEAKER_02I was in the choir too. Guess what?
SPEAKER_00I lost that. Yeah, how did this how did this start? It started from loneliness, yes, right? Because back home, when you go to church, you know, you're a new member or you're a stranger in that community, and you go to church that within that community, yeah, you don't feel lonely anymore. Everyone knows you have a family, you have a family, you make friends from there, and then you have like it becomes like a family for you. Yeah, but when I moved here, it was not the same, right? In fact, inside the church, I was feeling lonely. Yeah, I was lonely inside the church because and in Nigeria, right? There's one thing that we do at the end of the church, at the end of the service, everybody comes out, there's exchange of pleasantries and greetings, and you exchange greetings. And you know, yeah, here sometimes people don't wait till they're final blessing. Um, everybody's leaving because commitment, you have to go to work. It felt so lonely. I was in the midst of people, but I felt very, very lonely and sad.
SPEAKER_02Like nobody really sees it. There was no connection there, yes.
SPEAKER_00There was no connection. So I begin to ask myself, you know, like how can this be? Right? How can this be? Um, you know, I it's I wasn't I did not have any expectation from anybody. It's not like I needed help of course, but all I needed was human connection, and that's the reason we got a church for human connection. How can you have a spiritual connection?
SPEAKER_02Exactly, right? So it felt like I was processing very hard feelings by myself, even at church, even amongst my peers, because not a lot of my peers have gone through anything that I've gone through. So I had to suppress those big emotions for self and just drink alcohol to suppress it. Versus connecting with people. Like, you know what? This is really painful. And you know how grief just takes a long time to process. So for me, that was the toughest part about my journey here in Canada. I did miss work. I remember the year my grandpa passed away. I missed work 27 days. I remember these numbers because my supervisor 27 days in the year.
SPEAKER_00You only get three days of bereavement. You only get three days of bereavement from work.
SPEAKER_02No, no, no, no, no. I called in sick 27 times.
SPEAKER_00Did you keep the job?
SPEAKER_02They capped me. I called in sick 27 times, and I was late, I think 23 to 25 times in the year. You know, usually a sick day is only like seven days, 12 days for most companies. But 27 times. He was not even Christian, okay? But he gave me so much grace because it's like he knew like I was dealing with something. And he sat me down and gave me another opportunity, and that was a turnaround for me. I was like, wow, this man's really taking a chance on me. So let me do a better job. But yes, managing my emotions at the beginning was very harsh, especially that first five years. Um, but after um, I started picking myself up slowly. I started traveling the world with my friends, uh, my girlfriends, so that was fun. They they revived a certain kind of life in me because now I just saw different places.
SPEAKER_00Did you visit?
SPEAKER_02We went to Dominican Republic, we went to Romania, Italy, Greece, wow, Netherlands. I can't keep track, Mexico, so many.
SPEAKER_00Like people who have traveled around to other cultures, you know. Um, you guys are special because you spend money, you know, to get to get this experience. Yes, you know, and there is something that you guys learn that the rest of us don't know, right? Um, because you interact uh with these people. With the locals, yeah, you learn one or two things from there, you go here and all of that. All of those experiences, you know, help to shape your worldview, how you see the world and how you how you relate to people, right? Because then you will now have a better understanding of cultures, different cultures, different, you know, people, and all of that. That's what makes it uh special.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I I definitely learned so much. I always say I learned so much from my traveling than I've ever done in a classroom.
SPEAKER_00So, what part of yourself or your culture have you held on to since you left home? Because we leave home, you know, we'll forget some things, we move on, we adopt new um, you know, new new culture, we we enculturize ourselves and stuff. What what have you what's so special that we've held you've held on to since you left home? You still have it to today?
SPEAKER_02In uh Southern Africa we call it Ubuntu, and that is community. I like to think I'm a very community-based person, hence why my events company was born. It was born out of celebrating people, it was born out of helping people create memories. So that is coming from my background of being raised in that system of Ubuntu, being there for others, not just celebrations, even hard times too. So I pride myself in actually being present for my loved ones. It could be friends or it could be newcomers to Canada. I'm always willing to share that helping hand because of my experience of what I know and what I'm able to pass on. I've also held on to the food.
SPEAKER_00Okay, which one?
SPEAKER_02We call it Shima. It's cornmeal, so it's similar.
SPEAKER_00That's S H I or C H I?
SPEAKER_02Cornmeal, so Shimmer N S H N S okay, Shimmer. It's similar to uh fufu. Okay, yeah, but it's cornmeal. Cornmeal, yeah. Yeah, so Malina. Yeah, yeah. So I eat that every day, believe it or not. Oh yeah? Yes.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god. What do you think?
SPEAKER_02Canadian food.
SPEAKER_00What do you eat it with?
SPEAKER_02Uh you can have it with a beef stew.
SPEAKER_00Stew?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you have it with a stew and veggies. Okay.
SPEAKER_00What's in the stew?
SPEAKER_02Just beef and uh tomatoes and uh onions. Sound delicious. Very, very simple stuff, but very good. I've held on to just traditional vegetables as well that are very foreign to Canadians. That's cool. Yeah, so even my baby, she loves the Shima. She loves the Shima right now as well. So that I've held on to the food, I've held on to the cultural mix of the music because we have very hype music back home in Africa. You know, it's not the same as anything here. I'm a piano, um, all of those beats, Afrobeats, they're just different. They give you a lot of life. We can know we know the difference. I don't even have to explain much of that.
SPEAKER_00So, what part of you slowly changed without you realizing it? Because it happens to all of us, right?
SPEAKER_02My way of it.
SPEAKER_00There is a way that we change, yes, but we don't even realize that something has changed about us until maybe someone, maybe you until you when you visit home and they call it out.
SPEAKER_02Do you know what they said? They said I'm too blunt.
SPEAKER_00Too blunt.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah?
SPEAKER_02Like if you do something crazy, I'll tell you straight to your face.
SPEAKER_00Wait, they say it here or they say it back home?
SPEAKER_02Back home, they tell me I'm too blunt. Yeah. They said I'm too blunt.
SPEAKER_00You were not blunt before?
SPEAKER_02I was a people pleaser.
SPEAKER_00Oh.
SPEAKER_02Yes, up until maybe 2018.
SPEAKER_00What?
SPEAKER_022018.
SPEAKER_00What happened in 2018?
SPEAKER_02Life just started changing.
SPEAKER_00And then it stopped being a people pleaser in 2018. Yes. What triggered that?
SPEAKER_02I broke off a very long-term relationship and some friendships. And I had to put boundaries in place for family. You know how black tax when you live in this country and people just expect you to have money for most of the times. Yeah. But then I also just started reading a lot of books. I started doing a lot of training, mental training as well, especially mental emotional therapy, to just unlearn the trauma that I've I had experienced. So with that came a veil that was lifted.
SPEAKER_00Wow, interesting.
SPEAKER_02And seeing things from different perspectives and actually speaking my mind on what I think is happening in the moment.
SPEAKER_00Sounds like freedom to me.
SPEAKER_02It was freedom. It is freedom. People are like, oh my gosh, I can't believe you said that to that uncle. I said, what's wrong with that though? You know? So they think I'm too blonde. And um what else? I think that's the most. I like to think I haven't changed much. Okay.
SPEAKER_00So how do you balance what you just described now, like being too blonde? And and how do you balance that with the spirit of Ubuntu?
SPEAKER_02How do I balance it? Both can coexist.
SPEAKER_00Then both can how does that work in reality?
SPEAKER_02In reality, if someone is doing something that is going to hurt you in the long run, you have to be able to call it out right away. Because the moment you just let it pass, let it slide, it keeps coming back to haunt you. Again and again. And you become resentful, you become angry at the person, but the person doesn't know that you don't like this. Right? It's because you've allowed it. Right? Whereas when you're showing up for community, you're able to direct with kindness, you're able to be present and just be as well without any expectations. Though that's limited, but you can't do it.
SPEAKER_00There's some psychological weakness to that, right? When you're always the person that shows up for everybody.
SPEAKER_02Yes, you have to learn because right now, for example, I have to pick between being on social media scrolling or my workout, or picking up a phone call from a friend who wants to catch up or my work, right? So the boundary comes in with I'm not going to scroll social media, I'm not gonna call my friend back right away, I'm gonna focus on what's important. To someone who needs you instantly, it's why is she selfish?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, why is she selfish? Yeah, why is she not respect, why is she not responding?
SPEAKER_02Why is she not responding?
SPEAKER_00Why is she ignoring me?
SPEAKER_02Yes. Right? But in reality, maybe I'm just occupied with other tasks that I have to put in place before I jump on my phone. You know? Um that makes sense, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's that's the type of balance that a lot of people is is it made it sound easy, uh, but I know that it must have taken a lot of trial and error, hard work to actually build that type of discipline.
SPEAKER_02Of course. And then the people in my life they learn to respect it and they also learn to adjust and they honor it, and we are happy.
SPEAKER_00You talked about therapy a little bit earlier, you know, that's something a lot of us are not because it forces you to be vulnerable, right? Yes, and a lot of people are not willing to be vulnerable. So, what would you say, like your experience in therapy? Can you talk more about that? Maybe that will help some people to actually have the right mindset about therapy.
SPEAKER_02The first time I went to therapy, let's just say I cried the whole session. I didn't realize I was harboring so much deep emotions. So that helped me release. It sounds crazy that you're going to cry in someone's little room. But it does something, but it changes something in you, it releases those stones that are sitting heavy in your chest or your throat because you've talked about it to somebody, something that really hurt you, burnt you to the ground. You've expressed yourself like this really killed me inside. You know. Therapists don't solve your problems, they actually help you solve your own problems. Africans still think therapy is crazy. They are very convinced that when you go to therapy, you are either crazy or you're using the devil to sort your problems out instead of trusting God. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I'm like, no, it's yeah, I think that's part of the reason why a lot of us don't go to therapy because there's a part of the Bible that says, I don't I don't know what uh chapter or what verse. It roughly means bring all your problem to Jesus, right? Oh, bring all your problem to the, you know. Yes. So people take you literally, right? People take a lot of stuff in the Bible, literally, right?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00And the because of that, they just say they'll pray about it.
SPEAKER_02They'll pray about it. God solves all my problems. And you know what? That's the thing most Christians don't understand, is that God has used different people as a vessel to help us.
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_02Not just the pastors, not just the pastor. And sometimes, like I said, in the church, the pastor might not know how to handle this situation. Maybe they haven't experienced it. And you don't have to experience hardship for you to know. But there's also some psychological studies behind therapy that most therapists have gone to school for, not most, all of them have gone to school for, and they know how to handle those tough conversations, right? For example, grief is my biggest one. I cannot come to you if you haven't really experienced grief, you won't fully understand it, right? Whereas a therapist might give you the tools to say, let's try this coping mechanism versus this coping mechanism. Okay, maybe let's put the alcohol down and go for a walk in the woods, you know, or maybe let's try journaling what you're feeling, and let's do this exercise. It's a simple exercise. I want you to just go out for a simple workout, a group fitness, or it could be dance, and let's revisit this conversation again in our next session, and you'll be surprised what comes out of that. So, for me, I've grown to love therapy, not just for the hard things, but the good things too. I told my therapist that I don't want to come for therapy for just the sad stuff. I want to actually be held accountable in my business, I want to be held accountable in my friendships. Yeah, I want to communicate better with family. So those tools that were not available to me in my young adult years, I was able to implement through therapy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because we agreed to be vulnerable in these discussions, right? Um, I just want to say that I'm also doing therapy right now. I am that's good.
SPEAKER_02It is I love it, it is, right?
SPEAKER_00Not not a lot of men want to do that. No, they don't. They think a lot of people think, yeah. But it's good to have, but people therapy is actually underrated because they like you have somebody who's working with you through difficult moments, right? People think that it's just mental mental just mental issue, mental health issues or craziness or things. But if we want to be honest, right, all of us have some you know difficult things, you know, like challenges, challenges, past traumas, um, you know, like even if he's a business owner, for example, right? Like you mentioned it, right? There are some things that a therapist, a therapist can help you navigate. Sometimes it feels like coaching, yeah. Somebody that will call you out, like you said, right? From you know, some bad habits, you know. It feels sometimes it feels like coaching as well, right? Because some of those things are correctional, yeah, correctional behaviors, personal correctional, and it helps to improve you as a person. Like if anybody, if anybody, any anybody who is interested in self-improvement, right, self-awareness should be okay with therapies.
SPEAKER_02And that's that's what I want you want to be. My African people to understand that therapy is a form of many tools, a gateway to so much success. Yeah, exactly. Some of the most successful people that I know go to therapy because they know and understand their demons, and they know that those demons can work against them, and those demons are not the kind of spiritual demons, yes, and that's the thing, you know, with our cultures, African culture, they think demons are like creepy, creepy in the sky, with the horn, yeah, the devil's horns, but really, it could be laziness, procrastination, envy, jealousy, anger, yeah, anger, yeah, yeah, sadness, depression. So there's a whole lot of things that a therapist will be able to tell you you don't have to overthink this part, you just have to do it, right? There's so many times that I wanted to quit in my business because uh project didn't go well at the very beginning of my career, creative career. And my therapist is like, no, we don't quit, we learn from this mistake and then implement it into the next project, and I saw myself improving in real time. You know, I went from being scared and very anxious, like I cannot do this, or this didn't go well. To yeah, I learned so much from that project that I've become better, and now I'm able to mentor a whole lot of people doing what I do because I'm confident in the things that I've learned from my mistakes, and if it wasn't for therapy to help guide me into this specific direction, I would have quit a long time ago. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's interesting. One of the words that came that came up during my own session, one of my sessions was uh um emotional regulation. I mean, I've we we at work we say emotionally, emotional intelligence, right? Yes, but I never heard of was my first time hearing about emotional regulation, right? So I was like, okay, yeah, so I have to pause, yeah, you know, to actually think about my net my action before I actually carry them out. Like I have to regulate my, you know, just don't don't act, yeah, don't act impulsively, right? So I felt like I've kept that word with me, and it's helping a lot, right? So I feel like a lot of us need that. So I'm throwing the vocabulary out there for you.
SPEAKER_02Emotional regulation. Yeah, yes. Mine was self-awareness.
SPEAKER_00Self-awareness is very good.
SPEAKER_02That came from the supervisor who was telling me about my lateness. Yeah, he was a gay supervisor, right? And that was something new to me here in Canada. I learned so much from him than anybody. The moment he used that word self-awareness, it was like a bell went off. So now I feel a little bit more aware than I was when I was younger.
SPEAKER_00What happened when you heard when you heard that? Like what did you hear?
SPEAKER_02What happened?
SPEAKER_00What did you hear when you said that um self-awareness? Like, what did that do to you?
SPEAKER_02It it made me realize how I respond to others the same way you said. Um tone. Yeah, yes, tone, very important, because you can be saying the same thing, but if it's relayed in a very aggressive tone, you miss out on what you're supposed to relay to the person.
SPEAKER_00Is is it ruins all the meaningful things that you said, right?
SPEAKER_02It may it ruins the connection with the person, then the person becomes very angry. In this situation, it was a coworker who was sad because I said something rude.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But at the time it was a learning experience for me because she was crying and she was this like Caucasian woman, she was red. I'd never want to make anybody cry like that, you know. But once my supervisor told me about self-awareness, it made me realize okay, when I'm speaking to the person, the tone matters as well. And that changed the way I make conversations with everyone. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and self-awareness is just you know, kind of understand yourself, right? Know your weaknesses, know your weaknesses, know your strength, you know, and the know you know, use your strength to your own advantage and convert your weakness to strength as well, right? Of course, so stuff like that. So you recently went to Africa, right? Yes. What did that experience reveal in you, or what did it reveal about you?
SPEAKER_02Um I definitely have a lot of patience. Yeah, so I would say I'm more observant of what people are saying and what they're doing. So when I see something, you know, there's a passionate uncle who just come in yelling at the kids.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then I pull them to the side and I'm able to tell them, you know, you don't have to yell, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's a better way to Yes.
SPEAKER_02I said you you're talking to a 16-year-old or you're talking to a 21-year-old. This is not how they receive information. Because I've been that age and I know that being yelled at one thing goes in one ear and out the other. But I'm able to let them know, like, maybe let's try this approach. So it just not helped me, it also helped others, and I noticed the atmosphere changing right before my eyes. 'Cause Being more aware. We all started creating an awareness. Yeah. Being more aware. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Being more observant. And you know, the intention behind that is to make sure that you're correcting something wrong. You're correcting something.
SPEAKER_02I'm helping myself others.
SPEAKER_00Helping yourself and others. Yeah. And you make that important correction, right? It's not because you want to put the person down, or you know, but you just want them to do it right. Of course.
SPEAKER_02And sometimes I'm not always right, you know, but it it helps just bring it to someone's attention. Like, I don't feel comfortable in this situation. Can we try this approach instead?
SPEAKER_00The next question for you is did going back feel like um returning home or reconnecting to a version of you?
SPEAKER_02It felt like returning home, yes. Because uh this was the longest that I had gone. I haven't been back for that long period of time before.
SPEAKER_00How how many years are we talking about?
SPEAKER_02So I go every three to five years, but I only go for two to three weeks at a time because of vacation time in the workplace. But this time around was six months, so I actually got to see how people live day to day. I got to interact with the workers in different fields, especially like um the shops, you know. You go to the shops, and somehow they think I'm not Zambian because of my height.
SPEAKER_00Oh, really?
SPEAKER_02Yes, somehow they ask me where I'm from. Oh my god. I was like, I'm from here. They're like, but where are you from? From I got Rwanda, I got Uganda, I got US. I said, why? Because I'm like, you're very tall. Yeah, like you're very tall. I say, oh, well, um this is my home. Get used to it, and they'll laugh. But it helped me reconnect with the people. I forgot how kind Zambians are, I forgot how accommodating Zambians are, or rather, I will say Zambians because I haven't really experienced other African countries, but I really had a chance to just reconnect with people because of going home, and I just saw how their day-to-day life. So six months. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So why why did you choose to spend a whole half of a year? Not a lot of people can do that.
SPEAKER_02Mat leave.
SPEAKER_00Because oh, you use your mat leave and you spend it there.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00I see.
SPEAKER_02Best cheat code of my life. Now I want everyone to go to Africa for Mat Leave.
SPEAKER_00Well, that would be a good advice.
SPEAKER_02No, for real. If you can do it, go home. You don't need to suffer in isolation on this isolated, um no, it's not an isolated island, but it can feel like that sometimes. So but if you go home, you have help, you have so many hands, you have a full-time nanny, you know, you've got the house manager, so you actually get to focus on your healing rather than just being in survival mode in this country. Yes, so that Matt Leave gave me an opportunity to go home and heal. It also gave me an opportunity to go home and teach what I've learned here. So that was a big deal for me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so giving back to your community. Yes. Yeah. So what do you see now? You know, that or what do you know now that you didn't know before? After spending that six months back home.
SPEAKER_02We don't have to be stuck here. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00Yes, we don't. So, what's the end goal?
SPEAKER_02Um, there's lots of opportunity out there. There's lots of opportunity out there, so much good resources, so much land, yeah, and the people benefiting a lot of that are foreigners. Oh, yes. Um, nothing wrong with immigration, but I feel like the locals are not using a lot of that potential because a lot of foreigners have tapped into the natural resources we have. For example, Zambia has gold, copper, emeralds, some story all over the yes. We have so much natural resources, and these are found in remote areas of Zambia. And guess what kind of people are living in those areas? White people.
SPEAKER_01I see.
SPEAKER_02They're the ones running the companies. Wow. Yes, again, nothing wrong with immigrations because it's what defines the world. But it's like I'd also like to see the locals utilize so much of that potential. I also see a lot of missionary work in Zambia.
SPEAKER_00Still?
SPEAKER_02Nothing wrong with missionary work. Foreign missionary. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02I mean, let them people spread the word of God, that's great. But I'd like to see more people being empowered to work instead versus just preaching.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, instead of churches, factories.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's the same thing all over in Nigeria as well. There's more, there are more churches than you know, companies, you know, you know. So you begin to ask yourself, and these are poor people, right? Yes. So what they need is something that will put skills that will help them put food on the table.
SPEAKER_02Bread and butter on the table, teach them how to fish, don't just give them fish.
SPEAKER_00What that tells me is that it tells me that there could be some type of should I call it neoconalization going on?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um should I also call it um exploitation going on?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00You know?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um, so what can we in the diaspora, how can we in what ways, what should we be looking at that sort of inter in intervention? Like how can we help?
SPEAKER_02Impact.
SPEAKER_00How do we make that impact? Going home or make it from here, or what's the best impact?
SPEAKER_02Create courses, create structures, yes, educational courses. Because when you think of the balloon industry that I'm in, you don't think it's a real job because you're just thinking, oh, balloons, you know, a balloon person. But really, it's a whole industry on its own. And for me, what was powerful is meeting all those women, students from different backgrounds, empowering them to make money. Because that's what people need to do to survive. They need to make money, right? Um, as much as we want to ignore money and think money is not everything, money is something. It puts food on the table, it takes children to school, it gives you some source of security and stability. And if people don't have those tools to make money, they end up doing the wrong things. Yeah, the young people, they end up having the sugar daddy lifestyle, they end up having trafficking, crime, just you know, some sort of crime. But whereas you're teaching them a skill that is a gift, you help empower them, you know. It might not be balloon industry, it could be tech coding, it could be production, it could be anything. As long as you're teaching people to do something, to build something of their own, and the results were marvelous, people were happy. I I feel that is something as the diaspora we can do is go back home and empower people, and then we can also go home and just build for ourselves. Um, I appreciate this country so much. It's raised me from my adult years when I was 18 to now. But sometimes it doesn't feel like home, right? Part of it is because of being the minority, we're just different, and part of it is the cost of living in this country is very expensive.
SPEAKER_00I didn't I wasn't expecting that the way you switched it, you switched it on me.
SPEAKER_02I thought you were talking about I mean, hey, one bedroom apartment for $500,000 here in Canada, back home, that's a big house. Yeah, that is like three houses for $500,000. Yeah, you know, let's be realistic with our skills and our building. So for me, realistically, I want to build home because I see myself retiring home on a farm with little chickens and cats running around, hopefully. So I I I think we should go home and build.
SPEAKER_00We should go home and we should go home and build and build our homes.
SPEAKER_02If your home is not stable, come to Zambia and build.
SPEAKER_00You know, yeah. So if Nigeria is not safe for me, if Nigeria is in Africa, if you're allowed to go to other African country, you're very welcome in Zambia, man. Maybe not in South Africa, not South Africa that brings me to a whole different conversation right now. What's going on? What do you think about that? Like, this is like I I know there are white people in Africa, right? But the ones who are telling other Africans to go back to their country are not white people.
SPEAKER_02I'm sad.
SPEAKER_00They have black people like us, right?
SPEAKER_02I'm very sad.
SPEAKER_00I haven't seen a video of a white person saying and I questioned them on that.
SPEAKER_02I was like, but why are you chasing fellow Africans when the real colonizers and the real people still in the land are not African? Let's start with that. Yeah, they're still there. They were annoyed at me. They said, How dare you know nothing about our country? I said, Well, I have an idea. You're chasing fellow Africans. That's not okay.
SPEAKER_00That's not okay.
SPEAKER_02You know, I'm from Zambia. We live in unity. We have so many Somalis, we have Randees, we have Chinese, we have Indians, we have, you know, Caucasians, and we all live in so much unity. And you can tell that things are moving, things are progressing. Not the very best, but at least things are moving because we have all decided to work together and build the country. So I understand with illegal immigrations, it's a whole different ball game. But if the person has paperwork, why not let them? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, the way they go around the streets, harassing people, it's hurtful, it's very hurtful. They can't tell who has paper, who is not, who is undocumented, right?
SPEAKER_02If they went to a hospital and chased all the foreigners away. Even in the hospitals, yes, even in schools, they chased the kids away. So it's a little extreme. It's too extreme. I'm not impressed with that situation.
SPEAKER_00That's that's embarrassing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it is embarrassing.
SPEAKER_00You are a mother, yes. You're also an entrepreneur. Um you also have a full-time job, I guess.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00That's a lot for one woman. How do you balance all of that?
SPEAKER_02I'm not balancing.
SPEAKER_00You're not balancing it? No. So how does it work out for you?
SPEAKER_02One fails, and the other one has to take precedence.
SPEAKER_00That's that's honest.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Yeah. So there's always a sacrifice.
SPEAKER_02There's always a sacrifice, and it's okay in this season. It's okay to know that most of my time is with my baby. And it's okay to know that when I have help with my baby, I will fully focus on my business. And I'm going back to work on Monday, so I haven't really figured out what that is.
SPEAKER_00Are you excited about going back?
SPEAKER_02I actually am.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Are you sure you are? I can't just mind. If I if I turn this camera off, it might it might change your mind. It might change your mind.
SPEAKER_02I honestly I like my job. They've been really sweet and kind of. Yes, I like helping people. I like I do, I really do. So yeah, I mean my job is help me grow.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, I've been with the company for 10 years. Oh, yeah? Yes.
SPEAKER_00Wow, that's good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so 10 years a lot has changed. I just joined them when I was like 26. Now I'm turning 36. Yeah. So funny story, because I I used to try and apply for jobs in all these different places, including the banks. And back then they would write down something like minimum five years experience to get into this job. I didn't have that experience. But somehow, by God's grace, I got hired. And somehow I've grown to 10 years experience. So that's been very powerful.
SPEAKER_00You just returned from Africa, right?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00And as a mother, you know, your child is still a toddler. Um, you know, how do you like you were there, you got some help, and uh okay, let me phrase it this way. Let me phrase it this way. Back home, when a woman gives birth to a child, right, there is a whole different level of support that is out there, right? So how do you compare that to now, you know, that you are back? Like, I mean, for the time that you are there, the kind of support that you get, and the returning back to reality, how does that make you feel?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've gone from let's say, you know, full-time family, full-time nanny to part-time nanny, and just my partner and the baby, the three of us, and that's it. But God gives a certain level of strength to women here in North America because God knows the women here are suffering with their amount of no help that they get. Yeah, yeah, compared to back home. Everyone shows up for you in community. People allow you to sleep and rest. Over here, you have to fight for your sleep, you have to fight for your rest, you know. But uh being blessed and lucky. Yeah, yeah, a lot of people are learning a lot of things by themselves. I'm saying that's the reason why a lot of women have post pattern depression, is because they have no help over here in this side of the world. It's not a very child-friendly country because it's all built on a lot of capitalism. So the people that would be available to help you are working. Yeah, they're just not around. But in Africa, they do make themselves available. I was laughing because, well, it's not funny, but there was like funerals while I was there, right? Of you know, you hear someone died there, someone died there. You'll be amazed how many people call in sick on a Thursday to show up to this person's funeral. Over here, it's not something common. You have to request for time off. Yeah, over there they just have the freedom to just be present for people, be it in grief, in childbirth, in sickness. They all show up, and that's something that we don't have here. So the community we have here is the one that you build by yourself, not because you have to be intentional about building it.
SPEAKER_00But back home is just organic. It's it's just exists.
SPEAKER_02You wake up, it's right there, yeah. Even at 7 a.m. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, uh, for us who are immigrants, right? Um, you know, like I said earlier, we don't normally bring our relatives and our families with us when we're moving, right?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Uh, it can be challenging, yeah, because the type of support system that women get back home are not usually available here, right? Like we have your grandparents that can help out help with babysitting. Yes, you know, there's some people too from here who are from this culture, you know, who get help from their grandparents, right? But we don't have that luxury. If you if if you need your grandparents' help, most of us will have to like you know get uh have to uh like get them over, apply for visa. Yeah, go through the immigration. Visa is not guaranteed, yeah, visa is also not guaranteed, right? So and that's something you have to justify why you need help, exactly. Yeah, but like I feel like that's something that somehow the government needs to look into because yeah, because you know, um we like when people apply for visa for their grandpa for their parents on behalf of the grandchild, right, to come, they they should it should be honored, right? It should be honored because it's tough, it's very we are we don't have that luxury that other people have, right? Like to talk about the families that have their parents here, right? Yeah, they have that support system from siblings and from parents, right? But for us, you're pretty much on your own, right?
SPEAKER_02You're on your own, yeah. Over there, I sometimes wouldn't even know where who has the baby because there's all these people like where's my baby.
SPEAKER_00You sometimes forget that you have a baby.
SPEAKER_02Everyone's like, Where's my baby? They're your baby's their baby, you just gave birth to it. So they are they're very excited to hold your baby for you while you just be and just let your hair down, and yeah, I I'll miss it. I I miss it already. I miss it a lot a lot, actually.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so what has solitude taught you over time?
SPEAKER_02Solitude, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um because I feel like you are the kind of person that like you like to spend lots of quiet time.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_00Your phone is also always on do not disturb, silence all the time.
SPEAKER_02Uh yes, my phone is on do not disturb because um solitude has actually taught me creativity, productivity, yeah, wellness, wellness.
SPEAKER_00That's that's a good one.
SPEAKER_02Mindfulness, yeah, lots of mindfulness. You do like do meditations or I do meditation every day for the last six years. Wow, yeah, every single day. I haven't missed a day. That's good, yeah. For six years, but what does that do for you? Relaxes your mind, clears your thoughts, gives you different perspectives, gives you different uh resolutions to challenges when you just quiet your mind. Whereas when your mind is always busy, how are you going to hear from God? When you're always listening to something, always on the phone, always just looking for entertainment, busy body. What time do you have to hear from God? So that's where meditation comes in and prayer is to just silence my thoughts and focus on what I need to focus on in that moment. So, yes, the do not disturb is pretty harsh, but it's really helped me a lot with my personal growth.
SPEAKER_00Do you think independence changes the way that you experience um relationship, um family?
SPEAKER_02Everywhere, yeah, across the board.
SPEAKER_00Can you tell me more about that?
SPEAKER_02I'll give you an example. I was at the airport coming back here to Canada, and I had three big bags, and then we had, I think, about 14 family members who came with us to the airport to escort her. Yes, I'm not even kidding. About 14, 15 family members, everyone came to say goodbye.
SPEAKER_00The whole village.
SPEAKER_02Yes, not even that wasn't even the whole village, that was a quarter of the village, and beside that were my male cousins and my uncles. I was busy trying to lift the heavy suitcases myself to put them on the scale, and my uncles are like, What are you doing? You're going to break your back, you're going a long journey with the baby. Relax. They had to tell me that twice because automatically I'm just used to just doing things by myself independently. Even for a partner showing up, like, I'm going to help you here with this and that project. You're first like hesitant, like, is this person for real? Because you're just so used to being independent. So now I'm just allowing others to step in and help. Because growing up here in my adult years has definitely taught me over independence.
SPEAKER_00Over independence.
SPEAKER_02Over independence. I want women to be independent. I want women specifically to make their own money. I want them to work. I'm not a believer in there's some things that I just don't believe in that. There's just some things I don't believe in, like staying at home, not working. I believe in going after the bag, you know, and going after the bag does not mean being. Selfishly rich having all that money. It's about security in yourself and your children, legacy, even just for yourself. I don't care if it's a plant shop, I don't care if it's a balloon shop. Just as long as you're moving independently aside from you know your partner.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, but you said over-independence.
SPEAKER_02Overindependence is where you need to draw the.
SPEAKER_00When does it become too much? When does it become over-independence?
SPEAKER_02Lifting the heavy bag by myself. When the jets are right there offering.
SPEAKER_00When there are guys are right, that's certainly too much.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00When there are guys there, like elbow bodied African men. African men.
SPEAKER_02African men, African muscles. And I'm over there with my myself with the that's too hyper-independent, right?
SPEAKER_00I certainly agree.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Over independence, being a mat leaf. Like, no, let me pay this bill. The man's like, no, let me lead you right now. It's fine. Taking a step back and saying, let me have people help me take care of me in this season. Because I can't do it all. Or let me watch the baby while you work. Instead of having the baby on my back, you know, the African style.
SPEAKER_00So what are the what do what are the expectations like you women have for your partners, like someone you're building a family with, right? What are the kind of expectations that you guys want from us? Like kind of support, not just financially, but in every other way, especially around home, in the house, you know, laundry, anything around the house. What would you? I'm at your service. What would you like me to do for you?
SPEAKER_02Don't let me tell you what to do.
SPEAKER_00Is that the kind of thing is that tell me, tell me it's just say don't let me tell you what to do.
SPEAKER_02You see the dishes are dirty, go wash them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, go wash them, go wash the dishes. Yeah, of course. Clean after yourself, yeah. Number one, number one rule.
SPEAKER_02But I shouldn't tell you.
SPEAKER_00No, that those you shouldn't tell anybody to clean after themselves.
SPEAKER_02Even the baby.
SPEAKER_00Everybody should know that they have the responsibility to clean after themselves.
SPEAKER_02And that's it.
SPEAKER_00No one should be cleaning after another person.
SPEAKER_02I mean, there's shared duties. So make it a shared duties.
SPEAKER_00Formally shared or how do you is it formally shared? Okay. Common sense. Common sense shared. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Common sense. Like my friend is tired. She's putting overtime today from work. Let me step in. Let me take care of the baby. Let me, you know, take care of the food and the household. Um, there's no traditional roles in the West.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but we're Africans though.
SPEAKER_02I yeah. That's the part that I left back home.
SPEAKER_00Okay, it sounds like it sounds like it sounds like um you pick where is convenient for you and I mean considering that we don't have a village over there.
SPEAKER_02Do you know what? The women are queens.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'll tell you why.
SPEAKER_00They don't work.
SPEAKER_02I'll tell you, no, they work, but I'll tell you why they are queens in their homes. They have house managers, like the maid. They have nannies.
SPEAKER_00You can't afford it here. I cannot afford it. I don't know about you and everybody else out there, but I can't.
SPEAKER_02I would go to my uncle's house and then for the chef, a whole full-time chef. Then you come here, you, the woman, is expected to be the child care maid, cook, clean.
SPEAKER_00No, that's not fair.
SPEAKER_02There's no balance.
SPEAKER_00That's not fair. I feel like to be honest with you, right? Like women are already doing a lot. And I'm not saying it's out there to impress women or to I'm just being honest about this, okay? So what I think is that women already have a lot of bag, a lot of trouble, not baggage, a lot of trouble for themselves, right? Like when you talk about, I feel like child belt alone is a is a is a job, it's a full-time work, right? Like being a mom is a full-time job. Like I feel like if a woman have if like one of I see those women that have like three, four kids, right? Like it should retire. You shouldn't be working anymore. That's that's like a lifetime work. You know, like you've been you've been to labor, yeah, three times in your life, yeah. Like you've done everything you need to do in this world, but like even all the flowers. You should just you should just you should just go and you know be on a retirement and get paid for the rest of your life.
SPEAKER_02Somebody should pay them. It's a lot of work, it's too much work.
SPEAKER_00People that that gets underrated a lot.
SPEAKER_02It's too much. I see my friends with four kids. I'm like, are you okay? Are you really okay?
SPEAKER_00But um our parents did it. I mean, some of them, my my mom had seven.
SPEAKER_02Seven kids.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, one thing I'm grateful for is Canada at least gives you time to process and heal with one year MAT leave. Whereas some other countries like the States, I think you only get eight weeks off after giving birth to a baby, and you're expected to go back to work right away. Yeah, so it just creates a lot of toxicity amongst those people because they're leaving their six-week old in daycare. Six-week-old baby in daycare.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if they have to go back to work, right? That's not good.
SPEAKER_02Because they haven't paid leave, yeah. Yeah, so it's one of those things that it's just unfair. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think yeah, I think that's something that you know they have to actually look into, right? Because it's not good for either the baby or the mother, right? Yeah, yeah. So what has motherhood taught you? Um, has it um how has that connected you deeply to your culture being a mother?
SPEAKER_02To my culture or in general? Well, first empathy for sure, lots of empathy, because um even back home, as much as they do have help, sometimes they don't have all the resources. Sometimes the conditions of the women going into the hospital, there's a lot of maternal death still, or maybe the hospital is not very equipped with the tools uh that they need to support the mothers. So it's just taught me a lot of empathy and my need to do something about that one day. Um it's it's it's it's it's also taught me, it's reminded me rather, that raising my child with values instilled in me from back home when I was younger and just culturally when I went back this past six months is very important. Because the world will identify her, we'll try to identify her. But if I let her know who she is, where she's from, and she sees where she's from, she'll be able to stand a better place in this part of the world because she's grounded.
SPEAKER_00So, what part of your upbringing in Zambia would you want your child to carry forward? What part of it is are you most intentional about?
SPEAKER_02Kindness. It sounds small, but it's huge. Yeah. Kindness, creativity. I mean, obviously, she'll still choose her own path, but I think when one is creative, they're able to be innovative in any field that they end up in. Um, could be finance or sciences or anything.
SPEAKER_00So you creativity is on top of the list.
SPEAKER_02It is on top of the list. Kindness.
SPEAKER_00Oh, kindness and then creativity.
SPEAKER_02And faith.
SPEAKER_00And faith.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, in God, not people.
SPEAKER_00But because you talked about how your grandparents influenced your choice, right? Or your direction, right?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um, I want to ask you about creativity because you want that for your daughter as well, right? So is creativity inherited or practice? Can it be taught or is it inherited?
SPEAKER_02Practice.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so she's not going to be creative because her mom is also creative.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_00She's going to practice it.
SPEAKER_02Yes. The only way to improve something is to practice it. Again, it doesn't have to be drawing on paper or creating stuff. It could be anything, could be innovating the next medication for something. It could be discovering, you know, some new tools that could help change the world.
SPEAKER_00That's that's still being created.
SPEAKER_02You need to research, right? So it's hard work. That's the ethic, is hard work. Yeah. Nothing is given to you for free. You have to work for it. I mean, there is some talented people, but if you think about it, even the greatest Kobe Bryant, he was still on the field practicing from 4 a.m. You know, he wasn't just showing up to the basketball game. So I believe that you strongly have to practice to hone that creative skill.
SPEAKER_00So what kind of world do you hope to see a child grow in, you know, uming about knowing knowing their culture, identity, and belonging. What kind of world do you want to see, you know, in order for her to kind of know these things, right? You know, to understand her culture, you know, her identity and the her sense of belonging.
SPEAKER_02A world that's just more accepting, though that might not be very attainable, but I want her to see herself as someone who can do whatever she wants.
SPEAKER_00Why do you think it's not attainable?
SPEAKER_02Because some people are just stuck in their ways, you know. Yeah. Sometimes you'll find some racists who will say something mean. So it's like As much as we want to. As much as there's some bad people, but I mean, I'd like for her to know that there's a big part of the world that is more accepting of who she is and what she wants to become, or whatever she shapes herself into. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What do you think that migration take away from people that money or success can never give?
SPEAKER_02Those lost celebrations, both um good ones and bad ones.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, celebration of life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the celebration of death.
SPEAKER_02Celebration of death. I don't think there's an amount that you can put on missing out on those big events for those people that we love. Um, that's the biggest one.
SPEAKER_00Do you think that it's possible for someone to succeed abroad but still feel emotionally displaced?
SPEAKER_02Of course. Um, but that's where being grounded in who you are comes in and where you come from. Because if you're not grounded, you easily lose that success because there's just no firm foundation for you. So where you come from is always a foundation to build on, right? And if that foundation is not solid, the house will fall apart.
SPEAKER_00So what does belonging mean mean to you? What does it mean to belong?
SPEAKER_02To belong just means to feel safe, to feel whole, to feel present, to feel that you can be without feeling judged or misunderstood. So it's it comes in different forms, but showing up as yourself is belonging.
SPEAKER_00Okay. This is gonna be my final question.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00If your child one day asked you what did uh living home give you and what did it take away from you, what would be your answer?
SPEAKER_02Living home gave me opportunities to grow that I wouldn't have grown back home. It did take away family time, it took away um those precious memories that we could have created together. The sacrifice has been opportunities to help pave the way for new generations.
SPEAKER_00Every culture evolves. The question is whether that evolution is conscious or accidental. If this conversation stirred something in you, don't rush past it. Sit with it, share it, talk about it. This is how change begins. This is the catalyst.