THE CATALYST
The Catalyst is a long-form video and audio podcast exploring identity and belonging, culture, belief systems, power, and change in a rapidly transforming world.
Through honest conversations, personal narratives, and cultural analysis, we examine who we are, who we were, and who we are becoming — as Africans at home and in the diaspora.
This is a space for generational dialogue, cultural introspection, and conscious evolution.
Hosted by Ifeanyi Nwanonaku
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Welcome to The Catalyst World.
THE CATALYST
Building a Life Between Cultures — with Nomso Nnadi
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What does it mean to build a successful immigrant life beyond career and financial achievement?
Nomso Nnadi joins Ifeanyi Nwanonaku for a wide-ranging conversation about belonging, identity, motherhood, family values, raising children between cultures, community, marriage and the pressures facing African families in the diaspora.
They also explore immigrant contribution, the need for spaces where men can speak honestly, adapting cultural values without losing one’s roots, and the kind of legacy worth leaving behind.
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There are moments when a culture reaches a quiet breaking point. Not loud, not dramatic, just the slow realization that something isn't working anymore. The catalyst exists for those moments. This is a space where we question what we inherited, examine who we are becoming and explore what it means to evolve without losing ourselves. I am Ifani Wanonako. Welcome to the catalyst. The guest sitting here today is not just your everyday uh guest.
SPEAKER_00I'm a daughter. I grew up in Nigeria.
SPEAKER_02She's the founder of FEM Alliance Network.
SPEAKER_00It is a bold nonprofit organization to help women through the different transitions of their life here in Canada.
SPEAKER_02She's also a speaker, she's spoken in so many events.
SPEAKER_00Built my career in banking in the finance sector. My last title was Regional Risk Manager.
SPEAKER_02Also the founder of Pro Mentor.
SPEAKER_00Namso was a person who was greatly influenced by parents who care very deeply about their community.
SPEAKER_02And I have this.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god! You have blown me away. Oh, you've blown me away. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02Joining me is Namso Nadi. Every generation inherits a question. Questions like, what does it, for us, it is, what does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman? What makes a strong family? Because we are raising children in a culture that is different from the one that raised us. We are building marriages and family in a culture with different laws, different economic realities, and different expectations. And at the same time, we want to remember how we are raised. We want to remember the values that raised us. It becomes tension. Sometimes it creates tension in the diaspora when you are trying to balance those values that you were raised, you know, with the in the new country where you find yourself, right? So today we really want to ask a simple question. The question is: what does a healthy African family look like in the diaspora? This is the catalyst. And today, joining me is Namso Nadi. Mom, welcome to the catalyst.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much, If I thank you for having me here. It's definitely a privilege. And I'm excited to be here and engage in a conversation with you today.
SPEAKER_02I asked this question to most of my guests, and the reason is because we're all, most of us are immigrants here, right? Who come from somewhere. So who was Nonso before Canada?
SPEAKER_00Very good question. Namso essentially is an individual who is interested in community, making a difference in the world that she has seen herself in. So that has always uh been my foundations. Um but historically, I am a daughter. I grew up in Nigeria um in a family of five. And outside of my birth, I built my career in banking in the finance sector for up to 15 years before migrating to Canada. And in that period, I grew my competence in risk management. My last title was regional risk manager. Um, but beyond the career and beyond the workplace identity, I also started my family in Nigeria. Uh I have a family of five: myself, my husband, and three wonderful children, two teenagers and one preteen.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and uh we migrated to Canada in 2019. The way I'll best describe myself was uh Namso was a person who was greatly influenced by parents who care very deeply about their community. Some of my earliest childhood memories was always seeing my dad um being the head of um community meetings like the neighborhood community. He was always the president, and then he was also the president at church, the treasurer. So those were my foundations of someone who needed to care beyond herself. So, in a nutshell, I was just a girl who grew up in a family that spoke very strongly about going beyond yourself and making sure that your life is a life of impact and a life of legacy. And then I went on to build a career that I believed in. And as we go on on in this conversation, I'll tell you more about the different parts of my why and um why we came.
SPEAKER_02What I hear is I heard someone who inherited a leadership trade from her dad. Right? Um, your dad was uh your dad got involved in um in community building, um, community projects, and um that's definitely influenced what you are doing now with um the organization that you founded, um the fan the femme alliance, fan. Yeah, from what you said, I understand your dad as uh your family as as a type of family that cares about uh the community, right? So what was growing up in that setting within your community back home, what did you what did that what experience um did you have? What did you learn?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I learned to care deeply um beyond our family. So of course, charity begins at home. So the foundations that we had were beyond being the children of this family, we always our house was like this open door. We had cousins that came to stay over with us. We had relatives from different parts of the country that would just stop over at our house. And so we learned not to be. I mean, obviously, as children at the time, it was sometimes upsetting to have to share your room and to, you know, share your spaces, share your clothes. But uh, my parents were very insistent on us understanding that the lives that we were living were not just for us. Um, so namely, my dad was my parents were very active in church, in the Catholic Church, and we lived right in front of the church, so we had no excuse.
SPEAKER_02So you have to be like cartisans and stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and we also had to be active. Um my brothers were mass service. So service has always been at the core of um like the values that my family has. Um, my mom was a teacher, so it's it's just been generational in that way, and presently my dad is the interim traditional ruler, the last traditional ruler passed over, so he's the interim. So it's always been service, service, service. What can you do beyond yourself? And that has shaped my worldview. Um, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02How is that showing up today, you know, in how you parent and how you lead?
SPEAKER_00Um, so again, most people that you'd know would tell you my father was an accountant, and therefore I became an accountant, or my mother was a teacher, and then I became a teacher. Uh, and you see it's happening transgenerationally. So it's in the same way when you inherit really good values, you pass it on to your children. Naturally. Yes. And when you hear people talking about breaking certain cycles, and then if there are negative cycles that you saw in your upbringing as well, things that you'd like to do better, um, it informs how you lead your own family. So, in my case, um my parents were very altruistic, always wanting to do things for people. So, that's something that has informed like the FEM Alliance Network. And prior to the FEM Alliance Network, I have created multiple communities. So that's the one that you know about. And it all started when I was eight years old when I started the first yes, it was called Kids Club in our neighborhood, and he made it to he made it to national TV in Nigeria at the time. Oh wow. Yes, and beyond kids' clubs, so that's really the foundations of it in secondary school. It was the same thing in university. I found out that bringing people together, giving them a sense of community, a sense of belonging would make the difference on how well a person thrives in any space they're in. How is this informing my parenting? I'm passing on the same values to my children. You are an individual out of maybe I don't know how what the population of the world is right now, but you're one spectrum.
SPEAKER_02Seven billions plus eight.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but you're just that one person. And um, in a hundred years you're not going to be here. But what will you be remembered by? What would be your legacy? Legacies about legacies. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's that's really, really interesting. Um there is one particular word that shows up in everything that you do in your work, right? You know, the fingerprint of that word is everywhere in your work, and you just mentioned it here as you're speaking. It's belonging. Why is it so important?
SPEAKER_00Belonging is the difference on whether a person who is on the verge of, for example, this is a heavy topic, taking their life or not. A sense of belonging is a difference whether that person pulls the plug. Belonging gives you hope. And the absence of hope is the difference between life and death, truly. The absence of hope is what makes a person decide if they are going to achieve their goals or not. When you have any kind of hope in you, you aspire to be much more, to do better for yourself, for your family, for the society. But when there's an absence of hope, which I have found, is mostly tied to a sense of belonging. Because um, I have some of my foundations in psychology. My master's is in managerial psychology, which is also workplace psychology. And um, one of the fathers of psychology, Abraham Maslow, talked about the hierarchy of needs, you might be familiar with it. And belongingness comes right after you satisfy your basic needs of food, shelter. Food, shelter, clothing, yes, and then you satisfy safety because after you've eaten, you want to be safe, and then after safety, you want to belong. You want to feel the embrace of your partner, your you know, people in in that are all around you. So it makes um a huge difference to humanity, and that's why I'm very invested in belonging.
SPEAKER_02How about you? Um, have there been moments when you feel that deep sense of belonging, or maybe when you feel like you are longing for that sense of belonging?
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, absolutely. The absence of belonging is what makes you strive and yearn even more for that belonging. Um, in my case, when we migrated in 2019, my husband had to go back to Nigeria. Um, as most husbands kind of went back to tidy up business, you know, finish up some losing. And in that period, I was alone with three children, and then COVID hit the next year. So not having a full community at the time, not being surrounded by people, it was very difficult. And this was also um what I have found was the stories of many people at the time. Of course, COVID was that catastrophic event that happened to the whole world, and some people felt like um, you know, they were losing their minds. People were depressed, and that's when I first came in touch with depression, which in our culture is like this dirty word. What's depression? Go pray about it, snap out of it. Why are you not strong? You know, and um I felt that absence of community, and I felt the absence of belonging, and those are some of the whys, some of the reasons why I went on to make sure that nobody else has to feel that way. So it came from personal experience, at least within the sphere of my influence. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So um you work with um many immigrant women. What um type of struggles do you usually encounter? What kind of experiences do they share with you?
SPEAKER_00Number one is a loss of self. And that loss of self is when you come into a new country, you start redefining yourself. Who am I now? That's the question that comes up first. You have an impression of who you want to be before you leave your home country, but sometimes it's a completely different reality when you land. Because what you heard about Canada is not what you see in Canada.
SPEAKER_02What so what you hear is not what you see as well.
SPEAKER_00It's not what you see, and what you see may not even be what you experience because you are seeing people thriving, and it looks like they have it all figured out, they're doing it, and then you're questioning yourself, why am I not doing it? And you begin to reinvent yourself. Unfortunately, some people, there are two kinds of reinvention. Some people reinvent and adapt and change as they should, because we should continue to evolve and change. But for some people, they reinvent themselves so much that they completely lose themselves. So that's the struggle that I have seen, and that has been the feedback. The question of who am I now? Who do I want to become? And that process of transformation, some people get lost in it, some people never really find themselves, and some people struggle and lose some years before they find themselves. So, your question was, what is the common denominator?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, what is the common struggle? What's what shows up the more?
SPEAKER_00It's that sense of loss of self. Okay. That's the number one.
SPEAKER_02That loss of self, does it show up um from the aspect of career? Like I did I studied this, I was I was in this career path back home, but then I moved here, and I'm not able to um get a job in that field. You know, is it just that, or is there also some aspect of family um dynamics to it?
SPEAKER_00It definitely goes beyond the career path and redefining who you are, um, you know, in the marketplace or the workplace. A woman beyond women, all immigrants really, but specifically, women have to transform themselves because they're all of these roles you play in society. Women are multi-hyphenated, multi-faceted. Yes, because first of all, you're a mother, and some people become mothers in a new country. And we know that motherhood requires a lot of support, especially in the early days of a child. And if it turns out that you don't have family support, it's a completely different experience. It is, and for people who migrated with their children from their home country, like myself, we had supports back home. We had domestic staff, and when you come to a new country, all of a sudden it feels like a reintroduction to your children, and you take on more roles. Um, you're doing you're playing every single role, you're playing the role of doctor, driver, and everything in between. You know, so you're juggling that, you're juggling employment, and perhaps if you also have that hunger and thirst for business like myself, then you also have that aspect of yourself. So you're there's this struggle, there's a an internal struggle. Sounds like a lot. Yeah, there's an internal struggle on what on even prioritizing what's most important. But of course, when the family, family always comes first, when the family is involved, you find out that all of your priorities will have to center around your family. So sometimes it feels like life is happening to you, and people are responding, are responding to you know what's coming to them as opposed to anticipating these changes. Um, so it's really interesting, especially for women, uh, and then the needs of the man as well. So you have your entire family constantly changing. In my experience, like I had mentioned before, when we came here, my husband had to go back. So my children were also experiencing their own changes. They were in a new school, humans, of course.
SPEAKER_02They have their own needs, absolutely, expectations.
SPEAKER_00And truly, children, I feel the children of immigrants are the people that get lost in the cracks so quickly. Because while the parents are figuring out how to pay the bills, how to put food on the table, it's not like the children are forgotten or left behind, but their emotional needs may not always be um explored as much as and I know that most people are waking up to it.
SPEAKER_02It may not always be dev for them, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then they face some of them face bullying at school. Um, and then they start realizing that they are something different from what they've always been. And I'll tell you why I make the statement. Last year, um my parents had their golden jubilee, and I was watching my my daughter. She was with this group of girls, she was having the best time of her life. You know, she was just so happy in Nigeria. So, on our way back from where we were, I told her, You were so happy today. She said, Yes, in Nigeria, I'm not the black girl, I'm just a girl.
SPEAKER_02You're just a girl. She said that. She said that she used those words.
SPEAKER_00I'm quoting her. Her name is Jasmine. In Nigeria, I'm not a black girl, I'm just a girl.
SPEAKER_02That's deep.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So she can tell the difference.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because in Canada, then you have labels slapped on you. Then you realize that you're a black girl.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, she she can tell that here I I feel that I fully belong.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Whereas on the other side, um I get asked, where are you from? Yes.
SPEAKER_00Questions that you did not have to answer in the past. Um, so those are some of the struggles that happen to immigrant women, especially. You're dealing with your feelings and then the feelings of your children and the feelings of the entire family.
SPEAKER_02So, what do people mostly misunderstand about immigrant experience?
SPEAKER_00I feel that um some of well, I don't want to say all Canadians, um, but you said people, so both Canadians and non-Canadians. Canadian generally. Yes, generally. Um, I think the general perception is that immigrants are people who need help. Uh people who are disadvantaged, people who are um here for charity reasons, economic. I feel like this is my opinion that that's the general perception.
SPEAKER_02So some people think that we just want the handoffs.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. That we are a pressure on the system, and perhaps um not just in Canada, as you'd see even in the neighboring country, as people who are taking jobs, who are you know diluting the population or creating less opportunities. Um, but that's that's not true.
SPEAKER_02What do you have to say to people who hold such views?
SPEAKER_00To such people, I would say immigrants are a vital part of any society. We're bringing in different perspectives, we're bringing in our strengths, and we're definitely paying taxes. So we're not the burden to society. We're building the structures, we're building community, we're enriching workplaces, and we're coming with our expertise, with our competences, with our talents. Um, in the use case of Canada, for example, before you migrate, you're going to go through so many hoops. So you have to be very much qualified. And that's why there's obviously, you know, the Japan movement in Nigeria is actually termed Nigeria's brain drain.
SPEAKER_02It's epidemic.
SPEAKER_00It's an epidemic. And unfortunately, that's what it is. And that's that's not to say that people who are still working in Nigeria are less competent or not the best of the best. But at the time, the people who were coming to Canada, based on the requirements that were, you know, that's were needed to get into this country, you had to be the best of the best.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because you know, to be honest, me myself as an immigrant, right, is not really easy to navigate what we are navigating, right? Like you go through all of those barriers, outcall the barriers, right? Um, if you're applying for for a permanent resident, um You need not not just your own um certificate and qualifications back home. You still have to have your your transcripts, your document re-evaluated, and you have to submit that. You know, you have to go through words, you know, you have to prove that you can actually speak English even though you studied your whole life, even though the only language, most of us, you know, abandon our own language, which is a different topic entirely, and we check we embrace and cherish this English language so much that that it becomes the dominant language, yet we still have to prove that we can actually speak this language and understand it before we actually come to these countries, right? So that's I hope that people who see immigrants as especially immigrants who are making positive impact, right? People who see them as taking opportunities away from I think it's uh it has to do with competition, right? Like if they offer something that you don't that you feel like is is threatening you, that you don't have, if I were them, I would sit down and you know, what can I learn from is there something, is there's what's making these people um successful, you know, what's that thing that is propelling them, right?
SPEAKER_00I agree with you completely. It's an invitation to reflect and ask yourself what are the gaps, why are these individuals coming in and getting, you know, the choice jobs? Are there part of my skill that I need to polish? Are there certifications that I need to get? It's uh an important reflect inward reflection that you know people should make and not feel threatened at all because in the end we're all complementing one another and building a stronger Canadian society.
SPEAKER_02Imagine what this place will look like without these diversities, you know, you know, communities. Okay, so what concerns you the most about the future of immigrants in the diaspora?
SPEAKER_00The future of immigrants in general in the diaspora, I think the future looks very good for immigrants. I think um workplaces are seen the impact of um immigrant experiences, skills, competences, what we bring to the table, the diverse perspectives that we bring. Um I'll give you an example. Like when I came in, one of the first jobs that I took up was in the finance industry and banking as well. And I couldn't help but notice that there were a lot of gaps, loopholes in the system, right? You even call them loopholes because there were some processes. And and in my mind I was thinking, I thought Nigeria was a third-world country, but we're so advanced when it comes to cybersecurity. We're truly advanced when it comes to you know putting the plugs and guardrails in um in our financial systems. And I've also heard a lot of Nigerians who are in that space, of course, with great integrity, speak very strongly about it. And some of these people have become promoted even to director level because they saw those opportunities to close the gap. Um, I feel like Canadian society is truly appreciating what immigrants bring to the table in the medical field across.
SPEAKER_02Especially recently, there's been a huge upward turn. Uh, where we're seeing more opportunities now given to um yeah, African immigrants specifically, right?
SPEAKER_00So you just have to prove yourself.
SPEAKER_02Um you on your social media, you describe your you describe mom as the most important role. Your most important your most important role. Why is that?
SPEAKER_00Because my family is my why. Okay, my children are my reason. They're all of my reasons. Um charity begins at home. So before you drive any kind of community impact, what impact are you making in your own home? Yeah, before you change the world, you have to change your immediate world, and our families are our immediate world. And my children, like the children of you know, other people, they are the future. They are the reason why this planet would continue or stop existing, or why our societies would thrive or not. Um, and so I know that I have to get it right at the family level. Everybody should focus on getting it right. And I'm making bold to say everybody should focus on the family units because when you have thriving families, present fathers, present mothers, then you have a strong society, which then you know has that domino effect to become a strong nation.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, of course, yeah. Um the family, family is uh is the smallest unit of the society, right? So obviously, if we get it wrong at that level, then we'll get a society that is wounded, right? Um if um like the crimes that we see, right, they are they are they are committed by people who come from um a particular different families, right? And the in Cagre, I mean you are you have teenagers, you know, you are you are a mom to teenagers as well, so they are probably going to schools here in Cagre, right? But I know that uh within the last 12 months, within last year, 2024 to 2025, there's been like a rise in crime committed by teenagers, and it's alarming. So if we think about if you pause and think about that for a minute, right, that these children show up to schools with weapons, right, dangerous weapons, threatening their fellow their teachers and their fellow students, right? What would you say as a mom though, what would you think, what do you think is broken?
SPEAKER_00So the missing piece, in my opinion, is values. A person's values is the foundation and the totality of your human being. Your value is why you would do something and why you will not. Your value is why a person can conceive the thoughts of harming another person. So starting with Christian values, for example, our Christian values are rooted in the Bible, and it's different for other religions, right? And a strong value we have is the Ten Commandments, Thou shalt not kill. So if that is a value that you have imbibed within yourself, love your neighbor as yourself, and you stand by those things, the brokenness that we see happening in society will not happen. The you know, the the the tears that we see in in the playground and schoolrooms would not be happening. And then outside of, and those your religious some people are not religious, right? But those foundations begin at home, where you have present parents, and sometimes um a parent might be absent for you know various reasons. Some people are cross-posted in the military, for example. Some people are not present in their children's lives because they are deceased. There's so many reasons, and for other stronger reasons, you know, that's may or may not be within the scope of this conversation. But where you see brokenness in children, the missing piece is values. The people who are the upholders of those values are parents, usually or at least one parent, and when those values are not coming forth, you see it manifest in the lives of children as well.
SPEAKER_02What values, you know, do you that you grew up, you know, that you acquired growing up from your own family that you wish to um instill in your children?
SPEAKER_00Number one is bystander.
SPEAKER_02Bystander. What does that mean?
SPEAKER_00Okay, as the word suggests, stand by, bystander is a term in psychology of a person who stands by while bad things happen.
SPEAKER_02Okay, don't don't be the participant, don't participate.
SPEAKER_00So some people I'll would wash their hands, you know. I am not actively participating in this bad thing. Yeah, somebody is getting bullied, for example. As long as I'm not the bully, I'm just minding my business. So bystanders are those people that mind their business. But if everybody is minding their business, it's catastrophic. You see, you watch people die, you watch people get bullied in not just in school, in workplaces.
SPEAKER_02And you don't speak up.
SPEAKER_00And you don't speak up. So anybody who's not speaking up is as complicit as a person who is acting.
SPEAKER_02You could even you could even be the victim the next time. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00It could be you, it could be somebody else. So the biggest value that I learned in childhood is do not stand by. Well, back to the family.
SPEAKER_02You learn that from your family, you learn that with you.
SPEAKER_00From my family, absolutely. That's interesting. And so that's the value I've put in my children as well. I mean, if you're going to be in harm's wave, there's a shooting going on, like preserve your own life, of course. But do not be the person who does not call 911. You see somebody, a woman who's going through domestic violence and you're minding your business, absolutely not, not under my watch. So that's a value I hold clear. I am not a bystander and I'm making sure that my children are not going to be bystanders in life.
SPEAKER_02That's that's uh interesting. But I want to get one more value from you. Um, what's other value that is say African, you know, that maybe you learned from your parents while growing up in your family and it is important to you that you've not forgotten it until now, and you are still trying to pass it down to your children.
SPEAKER_00100%. I can give you three more, but you're right in also reeling it back because based on we know what values are. So the one that is most precious to me is respect.
SPEAKER_02Okay. And what does respect mean to you?
SPEAKER_00Respect for me means um understanding that we're all equally made, all men are equally made, right? And that there's no lesser man, there's no greater man. So the way you treat A is the way you treat B. And that goes across. And when I say man, I'm talking about male, female, children, everybody is important. So you guard them with integrity. You you know, you you value them. So my values are rooted in respect for a person's mind, a person's body, a person's soul, a person's intellect, a person's age, a person's season. Um, so when it's holistic in every way, um, my greatest value is respect for everyone.
SPEAKER_02That's interesting. So that's just one. You said you're good to give praise too more. You gotta be two.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Um, maybe not a value, so I'll take it a little bit. Love. Okay. You know, the golden rule. Do to others what you guys expect them from.
SPEAKER_02So, closely related to respect as well. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um, so respect for everyone. And when you love other people, you're genuinely interested in them. So people keep asking me, oh, like, how are you able to bring people together, not just in one community, but in several communities. I am genuinely interested in people, and that's something you can't fake. When like the questions you're asking me, these are questions that are coming from your hearts. This is not rehearsed at all, it's straight from the hearts. And so I know that you're genuinely interested in getting to know me, right? And it's not something that anybody can be confused about. So the way I show love is in genuinely wanting to know people, genuinely sharing in their story, and genuinely contributing to their journey as well. Um, another respect, another value I have is integrity. In fact, that should be the core.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and this sounds like something that dad will hammer on a lot.
SPEAKER_00There were times in childhood when we, my brother, when my brothers were teenagers, they'd be so upset at my dad because he was in a position where he could have been siphoning a lot of money. Money, but he wasn't doing it. He wasn't doing it. Oh my god. And then we knew about other people's fathers that were you know buying new cars, they were buying new houses, and my dad was even their boss. So we knew that he was in the position to steal money and he wouldn't. And that's why my father is a man that I am so proud of. So proud. Yeah, my voice is even beginning to crack over it. Um, that's a man that I respect with all my heart. So, yes, integrity. Don't be unquestionable in anything that you're doing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, it makes me it makes me think about my own family as well, right? So um my dad is, you know, very similar to that, to what you're the dad that you're describing. Just like your dad, he doesn't believe in cheating. You know, he does not like if everybody else is doing that, you know, maybe you go to a bank or you go to in a crowded place and you're supposed to line up. You know, all those shortcuts, shortcuts that most of us in Nigerians, you know, we do a lot. We see it, you know, if you have the opportunity, you do it. He will not, he will not bycott it, he's not going to take the shortcut, it's going to go straight to the line, right? Is like he's very, very honest with money. Um, in business, he's not gonna lie to you. So those are the val I notice that these are the values that a lot of our parents and grandparents, our grandparents pass down to our parents, and our parents are passing down to us. But it feels like along the way, um those values are breaking, right? Like if you look at this generation now, a lot of them don't believe in going through um the right process, right? They want the shortcuts, they want the fast means, especially when it comes to money, right? And you can you can see the type of tension that is creating, and even the parents now are different. They are the parents of these children that I'm talking about, this generation, right? They are different too in the sense that me as a child, right? If I bring something home that does not is did not come from like we don't own it. My dad, my parents didn't buy it for me, you know, maybe a cell phone or maybe something that's very valuable, right? You you gotta you gotta get some yeah, you have to explain how you got it, right? And if you have money and you bought some stuff, like you really have to answer some questions. Like, how did you how do what are you doing? How did you make this money? But today the parents, you know, they celebrate their children when they bring something home, when they bring money home, when they buy a house, they buy a brand new car, when there is no real source of income, right? So so that's what I mean by values are breaking. Do you notice 100%?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So like parents are complicites in the whole thing because they are the guardians, they're the first level that should be asking those questions. Where did this come from? And if they're not asking those important questions, um you can expect more of that.
SPEAKER_02So, what aspects of culture, like African culture, do you expect that your children should never lose everything? Oh yes, okay. What which one comes to your mind the most?
SPEAKER_00Okay, but I'll give you the context first. Um, you know, they say the future is often determined by the past. So when you don't understand your parts or your past, and you don't understand your roots, you don't understand your foundations and your why, anybody can give you an identity. So our culture, our identity is such an important part of their future. That's why all of our values, all of uh all the aspects of our culture, our food, our clothing, our religion, and the way we interact with elders, the respect that we have, those are all things that are inherent to the total person and to their character. So I I wouldn't sacrifice any of them. So to the best of my ability, outpass as much as was given to me to my children, because if they don't know who they are, somebody else will give them an identity. Remember, like my daughter realized that she was black after she came to Canada, but the whole time she was just a girl.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they say if you don't know where you're coming from, you will never know where you're going. And I say that if you don't define your identity, just like you said as well, the societies will. And if the society don't define it, maybe the aggregates will now you have technologies, right? That you know aggregates those things, right? And make makes a meaning out of it. So it's very, very important.
SPEAKER_00Just one click, you click on negative mental health themes, and uh it starts becoming part of who you are. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02What are the biggest pressures that African families are facing in the diaspora? In your opinion, as someone who works with um immigrant women, immigrants generally, right? So, what shows up?
SPEAKER_00It's identity and with the context you gave prior, and that context was if you're new to a place and there are cultural differences, first of all, you have to adapt. So being able to code switch is one of the bigger issues, especially for new immigrants. And by code switching, I mean you know who you are, you know your African culture, your Nigerian culture in our in our own context. Then you come into a new society where there are different norms, even in apart from the spoken language, there the unspoken communication as well. Um, when you get into a new workplace, for instance, there are nuances, body language, things that you have to learn. And for some people, you are already breaking the workplace rules, even without trying, simply because of that divide, because of not being able to move from one code to the next. So I'd heard that then before. I can't remember when I heard it the first time about code switching. So as you're leaving your house and you're getting into the office or into the you know entrepreneurship spaces, your language has to change the way, you know, your the way you're thinking, because communication is not complete unless the person who you're communicating with fully receives it. So I do think that um being able to adapt between cultures is one of the greater issues that face immigrants and acceptance and belonging, and that's why I'm so pleased to see that we're creating that belonging for ourselves. Most people come in and you expect to be embraced immediately. Sometimes it doesn't happen that way. Some people are lucky and it does happen. In my case, um it wasn't that I wasn't completely embraced because there was this woman who was pivotal. Um her name is Connie. Hey Connie, in case you're listening to this, so this Canadian woman, she it was day two of our landing in Canada, was for within 48 hours. We went to the store where she works and we were trying to pick out things, and she immediately she kind of adopted our family. You know, she saw us and it was almost love at first sight. You know, she saw me and the children, and she just you know, she just embraced us in that way. But of course, she couldn't be with us every second of every day, so there was still um that need for community. So, coming back to your question, one of the biggest issues that face immigrant families is the sense of belonging, sense of community, being able to bridge the you know, the unspoken um language in the workplace, being able to understand the nuances of the new environment. And the reinvention process is something that is continuous. You come into a new country, and most people think, Well, you've landed, you've started, literally, you have just started. It's like those games where you go to level one, you say, Welcome to level one, and when you're done with it, you go to level two, you just keep going. Yes, and for each stage. You have to acquire more powers. Sorry, I have a teenage son that plays games. So you need to acquire more powers. You need to acquire more skills and really immerse yourself in that season. That reinvention is your physical body. We come into a new country and our hair begins to fall off for some of the women. I know a lot of African women, we begin to lose our hair.
SPEAKER_02Physically.
SPEAKER_00Physically. So a lot of people, yeah. Stress and even the brittleness of the weather. Some people have experiences on their on their skin, you know. And that's why I also see some businesses like Eli Bianca creating special products, e-lips for lip goals. I think I've seen. Yes.
SPEAKER_02I think I've seen that lip.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then there's e-lips. They also do something for our lips specifically because we're different. We're coming from a different environment. And this is even at the physical level. There's also changes that are happening in your mind, your psychologically, there are hardships that you have to then pull on your internal grits. You have to become resilient. And it's a continuous process. The problem with this is all of these are having impact on that one person. As you reinvent, as you go through these stresses, they all culminate in your body, and sometimes it shows up as sickness, right? So the issues that are facing immigrants are a lot. There are so many barriers. There's uh the financial barriers, even in banking, um, financial barriers in business, financial and then barriers in the workplace, barriers in the schoolyards as the children continue to change. Um, so immigrants do have a lot that they they deal with.
SPEAKER_02Let's zoom in a little bit closer into um uh family setup, right? We often actually don't have these conversations enough about uh families, marriage, relationships, right? What is the best way for immigrant um parents, you know, uh let's in a family, let's say husband, wife, and children, who actually grew up back home, but they're now living here, right? How uh do they navigate these family dynamics with work? What's the best way to navigate that with work, um children, being a mom, and then career?
SPEAKER_00It's a lot to navigate, and those are all of the challenges that fall under the buckets for the last question. So there has to be intentionality, you know, and it's easier said than done because you're juggling so many things at the same time. Uh, and some of that intentionality is intentionally finding your people. And of course, you're in a new society, so nobody is asking you to restrict yourself because that's the whole point of multiculturalism, of stepping out of your comfort zone, of coming to a different country. You want to immerse yourself in new things, but because you don't want to lose yourself completely and you don't want your children to lose themselves, it is crucial in my recommendation to find community, especially for the children. Um, there's one that comes to mind, it's called Umwaka Africa. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's doing fantastic work. Maybe you should bring her boy to speak, yes. And it's just children seeing other people that look exactly like them. Then there's Weso Africa, you know, helping with dance and that sense of culture. Um, but on the broader question of how do you juggle everything, it's in systems. Um, because of my background as a as a business analyst, I'm a system thinker and I understand efficiency. And I know that you can't do everything alone. You will burn out and you'll crash and die.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it takes it takes more than one person's effort.
SPEAKER_00So, what I tell people is project manage your life the same way that you're getting ready for a party or a wedding, you know when to call the DJ, you know when to call the K tra. So you have all of these compartments. It's the same way you compartmentalize your life. There's um and things and also put it in that rubric of what's most important, what needs to happen now. Um, when we came here, my son was in soccer, and he was doing soccer four times a week, and that's just one child.
SPEAKER_02The other one does basketball four times a week.
SPEAKER_00And then my my daughter was doing gymnastics, right? And the other one was playing the piano, they were all playing the piano, and I was burning out. Yeah, I wanted you you can do many things, but you can't do everything. And if you can afford to get help, by all means get the help. So, still on this, you know, making your life a bit more efficient and easy. Women also feel like they have to do every single thing. If you need to pay a caterer, do it. Do it. Like I have no embarrassment, no shame in this. I I get people uh to cater food, not all the time, obviously, but there are seasons when I can't do everything. So it's for people to know what is critical in this season of life right now, what needs the highest uh attention, where do my children need to be at a certain time? What what cost should I be doing right now? Can I juggle business, career? It's just being truthful to yourself.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, that's honest enough. You know, like I'll just because I I have a I have a child too, um she's still young, right? Uh two and a half. Um, but I I'm thinking like, how about these parents that have three, four kids and you know, stuff like that. So it's really, really not easy, right? Um I myself am still learning how to navigate this dynamics, right? But um really because you know, back home is is different, right? You get all those supports, as you mentioned earlier, right? You could actually hire um a nanny, you could hire a maid, you could have a relation, live, live with you, right? But here the family dynamics is completely different, right? Uh the families come here with the ideas about marriage and family that that we had back home that's rooted in the culture that we have now in Africa, right? Then they brought it here where the economic realities are different, um, the expectations are different, the laws are also different. And when the man wants to enforce that type of values, you know, those African um that we probably got from back home, uh and it's creating some tension, right? And the sometimes it leads to serious problems, you know. You you hear about divorce and you hear about um domestic violence, especially among our communities. You have the man who holds who holds on to those values, right? And they want the woman who says, Oh, those things do not apply here, like I can't do all of this, you know, if I have to go to work and I'm also being expected to be, you know, like can't it it's not it's difficult, like you said, to handle, right? So what advice would you give, um, or would you say your own opinion, you know, how to navigate um this kind of situation?
SPEAKER_00So, what I'm hearing is perhaps we don't have enough programs for men or men are not coming together a bit more to talk about these challenges. That's what I'm hearing in between the lines because you're completely right. Nigeria or most African countries are mostly patriarchal, that's the truth, right? I was not expecting to be it is patriarchy, but it is about it, yeah, and carrying that I'll say it again, patriarchal mindsets into this country, there's definitely going to be friction and it's showing up in domestic violence, you know. And um, I don't you should probably invite Pastor Dia Dekube, she's amazing and like she's the queen of all things domestic violence. So um so she has an organization. I'm gonna yeah. So uh she she has this organization called Mandela House, and it's for well, you could look it up yourself, um, but it's basically an organization that also caters to men in that's in that context. What is it called? Mandela House. Yeah. Yeah, so you should yeah, you should definitely invite her to this podcast. She's very influential and uh a very strong voice and leader in our community. So, what I see is perhaps we are reactive as opposed to proactive if men would be a bit more vulnerable. Because these issues are happening. The expectations, remember, what was sold to us about Canada is not what we see on ground. And these realities happen every day. There's a lot of coping that the family needs to do. You're coping with the children, you're navigating a new environment, you're navigating the workplace. A lot of things are coming at you, you know, like full blast, like a full steam engine. Yes. So those mindsets cannot prevail. You cannot have the woman still doing all of those things. In fact, taking on multiple roles, she would burn out, she would crash. And if you have men that are not changing their mindsets, stepping into those roles, helping out a bit more, these issues are bound to happen. But the men also need space to be able to collect their thoughts and genuinely be vulnerable because traditionally, Nigerian men, African men are not known to be vulnerable.
SPEAKER_02What would that space look like?
SPEAKER_00So women have fought very hard to create their own spaces. So I invite men to fight very hard to create their own spaces. These spaces are not necessarily created by the environment. Like we don't have to wait for it. It can be, it can be, okay, there's this WhatsApp group that my husband I see my husband and his friends are in. Like it begins even at that level. It's called soccer and band. And it's mostly they just talk about soccer because that those are the commonalities that you guys have, right?
SPEAKER_02You know, soccer and band. I hope I'm not in that group.
SPEAKER_00Maybe you are. I don't know what happens there.
SPEAKER_02But I never didn't check. I have lots of group.
SPEAKER_00Well, during the during the summer, they some of them who actually play the soccer come out and they connect, you know, and then beyond those physical connections during the summer, some of them also connect like in the basements and in different places, right?
SPEAKER_02That's really important.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know why I think it's important, right? Because um psychologically is very, very important. Um, and considering that these are the type of values that we had growing up, right? Like back home, we connect a lot, right? Like men connect to men. Um as to what that connection is, is a different thing. But I'm just talking about the connection generally and how it's not happening here. It's barely happening here, it's not happening as much as it should be happening. Um and I know that we have the population now, right? It's not like five, six, seven years ago when like I know two people in the southeast, I know in the you know, we're all scattered all over the place, right? But it's not like it's not like that anymore. Like in every neighborhood now, you can see you can see lots of Africans, you can see Nigerians, you can see people from Ghana. Like I have neighbors here from Ghana, from Cameroon, and you know, and it's every community is has that now. So there should be no excuses.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um speaking about this whole thing, right? Visualize like I have 10 men in in this room, okay? 10 men sitting down, and I want you to address them. What will you say to them? You have 10 10 men, you have 10 minutes, okay? And you actually have 10 minutes. Okay, so talk to talk to men, talk to them. They're sitting down in this room, you know, listening to you, and you are the speaker.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so I'm going to start with the most important, just in case my 10 minutes is up. Mental wellness is not a myth. Talking to a therapist does not weaken you. Talking to a mental health support person, you know, a therapist, a psychologist, there's nothing wrong with that at all. It does, it has nothing to do with your masculinity. Get help. That's number one. Number two, your wife needs help. Your partner, let me see. Let me use partner. Your partner needs help. Number three, the children, if you have children, your children need you to model positive masculinity. They want to see every part of a man, which includes a vulnerable man, a man, vulnerability is strength. We want to be that strong man all the time. But sometimes, if you have children, if you have sons, if you have girl, children, you know, they might not be your biological children, they want to see the modeling of a man who's not afraid to show weakness. Number four, it's okay to cry. It is okay to cry. You're not superman.
SPEAKER_02Have you ever heard men don't cry? Have you ever heard that phrase? So it's not it's not true.
SPEAKER_00Men do cry. You know what? I'm gonna tell you something interesting while my 10 minutes is still running. Um, so there was a WhatsApp group, you know, full of women. I put up a poll. Have you ever seen your dad cry? Have you ever seen your husband cry? Um, yeah, so those are have you seen your partner cry? Have you seen your dad cry? Okay, the third option was none of the above, and they were it was really stacked. None of the above, but I was also happy to see to see I have seen my husband cry, and then they would clarify when his mother died, or when his father died. But that's the extent. So, men, you need to do better. It's okay. We're not asking you to be cry babies and cry all the time, and you know, it's even unfortunate that I'm using that term, you know, because those are the reasons why men don't cry, right? But um, it's okay to show vulnerability, it's okay to cry. So, how many points have I made?
SPEAKER_02Um, I wasn't counting on this okay recording.
SPEAKER_00Let's keep going, and then um men who have daughters, how your daughter will be treated in her marriage or in her, you know, with her intimate partner in the future is directly correlated to what she sees in you. The way you treat her mom is what she's going to take from another man.
SPEAKER_02Your sons, this is important, very important.
SPEAKER_00Your sons have you as their blueprints. What they see you do to their mom is what they're going to do, and that's how we have generational trauma. So break the cycle. If that is you and you're not treating her right, break the cycle. Got to break the cycle because they are watching.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So if you want a healthy daughter, a healthy son, a healthy society, it starts with you and the way you treat your intimate partner in front of the children. So where there are no children involved, and we're taking it away from the family in the workplace, men, women need you. They need you to be their sponsors, they need you to be their mentors. So if you want women to thrive and you are really invested, because you know it's not just the women in your sphere of influence, it's the generation that's coming after. If you want women to thrive, it begins with you. Don't be the person who looks away when something, the bystander, when something bad is happening at work, be that person who stands up for a vulnerable person. So women are categorized as vulnerable persons, children are categorized as vulnerable persons. So we need your strength to stand up and be there for us.
SPEAKER_02This is the kind of mindset that builds communities, that builds strong communities, and it's very important. Okay, you still, I don't think your 10 minutes is done, we still have time. Um, but you mentioned crying for men. Like, why is that crying so important?
SPEAKER_00Because your emotions have to go somewhere, so it's psychological. It's psychological, it's a release of pressure because people internalize so much that one day they implode. There's an explosion and then there's implosion, and none of them lead to any good outcomes. So do it safely, and that's why I asked talk to the psychologist so that they can guide you properly.
SPEAKER_02So holding it all up in your chest, uh, I believe that's what you mean by implosion.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then when you implode, then that means there will be an explosion someday. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Is that what you do? That's what you mean. There's never any good outcome. We just spoke about domestic violence and you know, and then suicide as well. It's not a good topic, but it's a topic that is a reality. Men are taking their lives, and it's because of these unprocessed emotions that are not going anywhere. It's like water, you have to channel it somewhere, and when you're not channeling it properly, um, the mind is what's what are the best ways to channel it? So, community to be honest. Okay, when you're gathering safe spaces, spaces for men, that's that must be very, very important. It is so critical because I've seen what spaces have done for women.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So speaking from experience, yeah, speaking from experience, it's even having somebody validate your journey. Like, especially if you've been out of a job for a year, there's shame that has nothing to do with you most of the time, right? Because you're in an environment that I mean, it's kind of like a buzzword to say that wasn't built for you, but it's true. You have all the qualifications, you've done all the things, you've crossed out. You're speaking to this recruiter, the person is asking you, have you used AI? What do you think? Of course, I've used AI to redo my resume. And some people keep asking you questions about things that you've already done. So you know that you're on the right path, you've done all that you're supposed to do. In community, and community can be three people, by the way, five people, ten people. It doesn't have to be a crowd, it doesn't have to be a whole village. Exactly. So when you open your mouth and you speak and somebody else says, Me too, me too is one of the most powerful statements.
SPEAKER_02I think I've seen somebody that used that as a social media. I mean, it was that whole movement that was going on in the US at that time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was so powerful. But it truly is one of the most powerful. Seeing yourself in somebody else, first of all, it removes that isolation of thinking it's me, it's happening to me. But when you know that it's happening to other people as well, then you begin to look outside of yourself and go, like, okay, the system is broken and we need to fix it. So men need to find other men who are saying things like, I've applied to 30 jobs, I haven't heard anything. So, first of all, it strips away that it's not because I'm not qualified, it's not because there's something wrong with me. If all of us are experiencing the same thing in all of our workplaces, there's a common denominator. Maybe it's the system, maybe it's not me.
SPEAKER_02And it gives you strength to keep going and to come together to actually fix that system, you're not gonna meet those people, you're not gonna know about those things if you isolate yourselves, yes, if you don't come together and you know, yeah, and then there's something else closed mouths don't get fed.
SPEAKER_00When you're in a group, there are so many opportunities. Everybody represents, you know, a whole community. You have 10 people, those 10 men, those 10 men may have 10 friends. So, how many friends do we have now, right? So if they're 10 people all together, we have like a community of 100 already. So, when you are talking about your business, for example, you just started a cleaning business and you say it out openly. I have just started this cleaning business, I would like your support and this they become your evangelists and they spread that same message word of mouth can go very far word of mouth so close mouths don't get fed that's why you need community and that's why men should really embrace it that's very important yeah uh I know I know that um a lot of us are not comfortable with uh men though um therapy you know I I've never seen and I don't know one person who has but I have so yeah you're happy about that right yeah yeah so yeah it showed up during my um previous conversation um um what last month you know we thought about mental health thought about therapy and stuff like that right so um but there um I wanted to explain the difference between a wife and a partner because you said you said wife before and then you switched it to say no not really wife but partner right so you're gonna tell us the the listeners and the viewers the difference in your own perspective though the difference between a wife and a partner I don't think they are exactly the same right no they're not and then after that you're gonna tell us the difference between masculinity and toxic masculinity okay good topics yeah okay to start with you know when we talked about cultural differences and nuances in the new country yeah okay so in Canada for example you use language in that do not exclude because it's an inclusive society and you want to continue to uphold that inclusiveness not everyone is married to not every let's use male and female in this context not every male is married to the female intimate person in their life so that person is their life partner right and so if we use language like wife spouse we are excluding people who happen to fall into that bucket who are not legally married yeah so it's so important um especially in public spaces to use language in that includes everyone um because we have people that are together that have had four children five children you know and they have no like asking questions because I I didn't even think of it in that way but yes this is why asking questions is good so thank you yeah so that's a lot of that that was my own reason for switching it and catching myself each time I said wife I realized that yeah you are probably excluding some people yeah that makes sense yeah how about the other one to seek and the okay and then something else I suspect the other meaning that you probably had in mind on wife and partner some people are legally married but there's no true partnership in every sense of the word yeah yeah where you have things like different financial portfolios my and we should also maintain some you know independence in our finances for example but when there's no equal mindset in contributing to the total family person the children then you may or may not have a partnership. Yeah that reminds me something though there's an another thing actually that shows up in family marriages here in the diaspora right um like I literally had an elder that was my guest here say it right um he said that because he was talking about the type of domestic crisis that he's responding to as an elder right he said that sometimes it's just things like money like who is making more money this person is making more money so this is a creating tension so how should uh finances what's the best way um to have that boundary or maybe what's the best way to manage family finances especially when one partner is making more than the other okay sometimes the discrepancy is really really large right especially if the woman is the one who's making more than the man you know you can imagine the type of tension that this would create yeah okay how I'll start this topic is uh I think I'm qualified to talk about it I've been married for 16 years so I've had some experience you're overqualified that's that's the reason why I actually picked you for this conversation because yeah you have the experience right you have the you have the you have the portfolio as you said right so cook so when we did our marriage class in Nigeria in Catholic church adultery was one class finances three classes I couldn't understand it so I asked the priest I thought adultery was the biggest issue in a marriage why did we have three classes for finances and one class for adultery commandment but finance didn't show up in telecommandment so even when now that you've broken it down there's so many facets to finance there's about you know who brings in more that's one of it and then there's also you know like buying property there's all kinds of things that follow their finances so just to address the one that you talked about it's also part of the toxic masculinity that we're coming to later it's men being rooted enough in their identity and understanding the their partner and the identity of their partner well enough to know that we should be complementing each other it's not a competition meant to be in the first place. Once you're joined together as one literally you are one you're hurting your own body your own mind your own soul where there's an absence of love an absence of trust trust first of all before the love I don't think love can be can always be present but without trust that's where things like this come up and then there are also roots that have to be dealt with psychologically their childhood you know the the things that some men or it could be either way one partner has experienced in childhood. Okay let me use a woman for example a woman who grew up seeing her mother disadvantaged in life because her father was the breadwinner was the breadwinner and was using uh finances as to oppress yeah as a punitive measure okay and abuse right because there's financial abuse so if that girl grew up seeing her mother being financially abused didn't have a choice didn't have a voice because she did not have money when she grows up she can there's something called an internal vow that people make never in my life will I allow a man to be the sole provider then the person makes that internal vow and keeps to that internal vow. So as they're growing up everything that they want to do is to protect their money. So they stop seeing the big vision of the family because of that experience that they saw and they saw their mother begging for money not being able to do anything they're like this is this will never be me. That's an internal vow and internal vows are almost impossible to break you know until you do some work in breaking it so when you carry that and then the man carries his own yeah trauma or absence of trauma and then comes and sees somebody who's dragging over this is my money versus that's your money. So that's why we're talking about the psychology is important speaking to a therapist is important. So when you are confronted with this issue what do you do the couple needs to come back to why they why they made that decision to stay together and then if there are issues that need to be dealt with then have to deal with those issues because they become it's like a like a snowball you know snowballing a snowball is rolling down the mountain is accumulating more and it's getting bigger and it's getting larger than life so if you don't deal with it when it's still a tiny snowball gets bigger it gets bigger until it smashes something and it's out of control. Yeah and it's a big issue that faces families in the diaspora um the man is not sure like let me because you said man first so let me just use man and it could be either right we're getting to men as well yeah so let's use the man first the man who is conditioned and wired to be a provider biologically um inherently culturally at least um because I mean maybe not always biologically that's that may be flawed thinking but culturally our men are raised to be providers even from a faith-based perspective you hear things like who was then an infidel if you're not providing for your family so when you have all of those voices and that context in your mind and you know that you're conditioned to go go and work and bring this money and this woman is bringing more so there's it's a loss of self that also happens to the man there's a sense of not feeling important. Yes it creates this dissonance because I'm supposed to be providing and bringing but I'm not supposed to be the one who is supposed to be making the more yeah and I'm supposed to be protecting her and helping her so it really is a dissonance I want to help her I want to protect her I want to make her life easy but I need to go make money as well so you're torn between the two then the part of you that has the greater trauma perhaps that says if if she earns more than me she's not gonna respect me anymore. And um so those are all of those weaknesses that come up she's not gonna respect me so I lose my place as a man. You know one particular one that you mentioned now if she messed more than me I'm not gonna be like the article I'm working on have that is that just in case it's eventually publishing yeah so these are these are the things that are happening right these are the things that we're seeing um yeah so okay that was men on this side of the room there's a hallway here in this building right you spoke to men on the my on my right side of the room there are women on the other side of the room what should you say to them okay before I speak to the women I would say that's one of the examples of toxic masculinity I want to be masculine and you know provide and yeah that's that's still categorizing that toxic masculinity right yeah because men needs to loosen up a little bit right and one of the solutions to it that I wanted to offer is mentorship. It's so important to have somebody who has gone ahead someone who's done all these years in marriage and has learned the lessons right so how does that mentorship come about community okay so or you know in practical terms like like who who mentors who like you find an elder how does it start you walk up to somebody and be like you know how do you start mentorship especially when it comes to couple mentorship you know family mentorship most family mentorship in my own experience usually um comes from well from my own context the church community because you want to see people who are doing it well it doesn't always have to be from church obviously people can find can notice couples that they think are doing it the right way after yes and then I I feel like most people who are doing it right want want that yeah they want to spread that goodness so I I I doubt it very highly that someone would say I want you to mentor me and that mentoring is doesn't have to be structured it's just can I have you on speed dial can I be able to connect with you and ask you questions you're a trusted person in my life naturally right yes it's organic it's natural and most people would say yes um in fact so there's some mentorship that are currently ongoing that are not even given a name like nobody different it's just happening I have ladies like younger women that call me and say oh look at this is what happened between my husband and I and we are not calling it mentorship. It's not official yeah but there's confidentiality between the two of us and it has to be uh so that's that's that's interesting that's good yeah women do it a lot so men should actively seek out without pride another man who has gone at that's uh you know I I don't know what it would take to you know break those barriers right to you know to convince men to um be more expressive to be more emotionally expressive you know um okay so anything else you want to you want to go on the other room yeah we're ready for the women okay we're on the other side of the yeah the hallway the other room on the hallway right so there are women ten women there you have 10 minutes to address them as well okay and these women are in the diaspora yes yeah they're all women who are in the diaspora yeah yeah you can you can be yeah women in diaspora let's talk to women in diaspora but I think other women still can learn something from it right because no knowledge is a waste yeah so dear woman do not shrink yourself you obviously you you love the man in your life or you love your partner you love your family but before you became a spouse if that's the scenario we're talking about before you became a wife before you became a partner to somebody else you were you and I speak from the faith-based perspective God made you and he had a reason and a purpose that you were supposed to achieve on this earth one of those purposes notice one of them is your family it's a big chunk but it's one out of other purposes there are more yes so always look at yourself as that person who was put on earth to achieve something and one of your achievements big chunk is your family but that's not all of you.
SPEAKER_02So do not lose yourself in the process do not shrink yourself and I know it sounds very buzzwordy a lot of people say don't shrink don't shrink don't shrink but it's true I think I know why you're saying that and you are right you're not saying you know fill the room with your ego and the every ambition that you have right that's not what you're saying that's not what I'm hearing. What I'm hearing is that women should not sacrifice every other mission that God has given to them right every other mission purpose that they have in their life right don't sacrifice it just because you want to don't make yourself small to just you know do only family um um having kids and raise raising children right you can do much more than that yeah right and it's it's an important never lose the context that it's an important part of you but that's not all of you.
SPEAKER_00It's not all of yeah yeah that's that's a good message yeah that's very very important um I like that to be honest I like that because I know that some women get it wrong in the sense that once they get married they throw all the ambitions away right I've seen women who are pilots right you know I've seen women are doctors right so and they are mothers as well right so if you can then why not yeah you know you have the capacity to do as much as you can do that yeah yeah then number two is going to flip this number one a bit okay there is a place for sacrifice okay so the first one was don't sacrifice everything and yourself in the process then number two is compromises there are compromises there and those sacrifices can come in seasons those sacrifices can be for a particular part of you so bringing it home um one of the most profound conversations I've had in my whole life was when um I went to this event and it was one of those rooms that you're like what am I doing in this room and you're like wow big room important room and the person that was sitting beside me was apparently the keynotes and I did I actually did not know that the keynote speaker for the keynote speaker okay and like I knew the name of the keynotes but the face did not come together with what was on the poster you know and it wasn't right beside me. So she and I engaged in conversation very nice you know Caucasian lady um maybe in her 60s you know not the child but um very like sophisticated she was all of those things right so she and I started having a conversation and I asked her what has been the best career move you've ever made in your life I was shocked she said my best career move was when I stepped away from my career I was like why and she said I stepped away for six years I thought how did you and and you're a director right now she said yes a very big institution she's a she was currently the director of a very big institution. I said you stepped away for six years she said yes and she told me why that she found out that her son was immersed in drugs and she knew that she was going to lose this boy her only child and at that time that's a big one that's a big sacrifice. Yeah and she kept telling herself perhaps the father would be able to manage this on his own while I you know while I keep our lifestyle and you know keep my and she was in line for the same director position that she's in right now and she was in line for it that was her next promotion so it was very difficult it was a very difficult decision for her to make but she made that decision and she said that is the best career move of my life because I could never have been at peace if my son was on the streets. So she stepped away in order to get that boy back on his feet she showed me his picture he's married she has grandkids that same boy that she made that sacrifice for all those years ago he has kids very stable family doing very well in life and she said this peace of mind my career would have probably ended because I would have lost my mind if my son, my only child was lost.
SPEAKER_02So sometimes there's a season for sacrifice so as much as you want to do all the things and all the powerful things you know you want to take over the world also know when you have a season of sacrifice be attentive to it and step away without apology when you need to yeah it's totally worth it to be honest because a different person will be like um we'll try to manage both right you know we'll try to give support while still holding on to their career and whatever purpose they are pursuing right you know so it takes a vision a visionary person to realize that at this point I have to stop this to save this right I have to stop this to prioritize this and trust me that I'm not saying that it's uh um it's it's not a it's not a small sacrifice it's yeah it's huge right and also it's not the cookie cutter situation it's not the one size fits all she knew in her own family and in her own context that that's what needed to happen of course it doesn't apply to everybody some people can manage it can come in different yes it can come in different things can be a different thing yeah so what should the woman the women who are listening now what should they learn in like in one sentence what should they learn from this particular story because this is an inspiring story yeah um what I learned and what I invite other people to learn is prioritization know what's important in your life and don't let that that importance be dictated by society by other people's opinions it has to be what is most important to the people you care most about it has to because you you cannot be a whole woman in my opinion if my child is lost I cannot find myself to be a whole woman you know because I feel like that's my primary assignment you know but as long as you've done everything that you can because for some people they literally do everything possible and you still have a child that refuses you know to be on the straight and narrow and in in that case there's nothing you can do but for children who are willing to be malleable and your sacrifice makes a difference in their lives absolutely be attentive to the season and again that's not only in the context of children it's being able to take this into different
SPEAKER_00Areas of life knowing what to drop for some people, they step away from their careers and then they grow their businesses, you know. Because I I reached I have a friend who is a software engineer doing fantastically well. She stepped away from her job to grow her business, and in this moment it looks like madness because she has the fantastic job, but the sacrifice she's making now is going to reap greater rewards with the energy she's putting into that business. By the time she I mean she becomes who she who I know she's going to become, then um it's just something that you're going to be looking at in the in the rear view mirror, and it becomes all those lessons learned when you're telling the story, then it becomes an inspiring story. But in the process, in the journey, it's not easy. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Completely agreed.
SPEAKER_00So are we still advising the 10 women?
SPEAKER_02You've already given them the you have more. If you have more, then go for it.
SPEAKER_00If you have more one more is on reinvention. Okay. When people migrate and come to another country, there's a lot of emphasis on, you know, reinvent yourself in your career, in yourself. But in doing that, don't lose your essence. Don't reinvent to the point where you're unrecognizable and you lose yourself. Reinvent by all means because change is the most constant thing in life, and everybody should be adapting. AI is here now. Everybody should continue to change, but don't change to the point that even you cannot recognize yourself.
SPEAKER_02That's a good advice, yeah. So, would you say that some immigrant families are struggling because they try to apply um a model you know from back home to a different scenario here?
SPEAKER_00Okay, that's a very good question. Um, applying a model in their new country to the old ways, or vice versa, possibly. So the in change management or change of any kind, adaptability is at the core of a human being. When in Rome you act like the Romans, right? Um so on the one hand, when you move into a new environment, a new society, you should by all means adapt.
SPEAKER_02But don't lose yourself.
SPEAKER_00But when you exactly, and that that's why a lot of concern has come up for the children of immigrants, so first generation immigrants like us, we migrated here, then the ones, the children that are born into this system, this is all they know, right? And especially if you're not going home, it becomes their new reality. So it's on you to forge their future and to keep them aligned with their roots. And if you're not doing that, you're going to find out that all the work that you did in bringing them to the land of milk and honey, you find yourself in a nursing home at age 80.
SPEAKER_02Children are usually the most vulnerable when it comes to because adults already, they already you've already built your values, you've already built, you know, a solid foundation. You understand life way better, right? But these young ones, you know, um they they're just catching whatever flies their way, right? So yeah. So that talks about it.
SPEAKER_00But here is mostly individualism, right? So if we have children that are growing up with an individualistic mindset, what's going to happen to you in your old age? We shouldn't by any means depend on our children to take care of us in our old age. We should work very hard and have our savings. You know, but beyond the money and the savings, you want the belonging, you want that family relationship when you're older. But it's their choice if they want to live in Timbuktu, if they want to move to Australia, it's their choice, it's their family. But the difference in family relationships is when you have a child who's still interested in you in your old age, they still are extending that hand of the relationship, they're calling you on the phone, they're visiting you, they want to be in your life, you know. And some are those some of the uh mindsets that we've seen in the West, it's not the story of every Westerner, obviously. Yeah, obviously, yeah, but it's dominant to a large extent, it's dominant.
SPEAKER_02So what because some of the things you talked about now has to do with our culture, right? So, what part of our culture would you preserve and what part would you call for re-examination? Would you say, let's re-examine this? I don't really believe that this is right, because everybody has that. I have my own too, right?
SPEAKER_00So um I like respect in our culture, I do. But to but we need we still need to re-examine it because uh the the anything that comes in high doses can become destructive.
SPEAKER_02So you also have too much of everything, anything, too much of anything can be bad for you.
SPEAKER_00So respect is good in itself, but when it is used in a toxic way, then you have people become gullible and accepting things that might even be negative because it's coming from authority. Yeah, yeah. So then you now have abuse of authority happening. So um if we maintain respect in the right dose, that's definitely a part of our culture. I would like to preserve the second part of our culture. I wholeheartedly want to preserve is collective nature or the community nature that we have of um in Ibo language or of rule for zonwa. So it it's not one person's responsibility, a child belongs to the entire community. That means you see a child as doing wrong. Yeah, it takes a village to raise a child. You see somebody's child, and it doesn't even have to be just a child who's doing wrong, and you feel that you should be able to step in and you know correct that child, and you can safely also give advice to the parents without rebuttal.
SPEAKER_02So those are what part needs honest re-examination? Um your own up, yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00Now again, yes, but I mean it's been exposed to the whole world that it's a negative thing, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, of course. Yeah, we'll see, we're seeing the negative um impact in our families, right? So, okay, that's honest enough. Um so what does a healthy African family look like in the diaspora?
SPEAKER_00Okay, a healthy family, African family in the diaspora looks like uh people who are contributing to society in the best possible way. It looks like people who genuinely love one another, starting from the family units, and that love is spreading beyond the family. They are showing up and helping vulnerable populations, they are volunteering, and um parents probably are paying taxes and working very hard and modeling hard work to their children. They are modeling love and respect for one another. If there's a little girl growing up in the household, she knows exactly what to expect from a man because of her dad. If there's a boy in the household, he's going to be a strong man who protects, who cares for the woman, the future woman in his life because of his father. He's going to watch his mother and see what nurturing looks like. And that's what that child is going to expect in a future partner. They're going to see unconditional love. So, a thriving family in the diaspora, there's unconditional love. It's not performative, it is actually what is keeping the family together. They are contributing to society and they are showing people that whatever biases you have about a particular ethnic group is not true because of us. Because we are we are we are people of integrity, we are people who are making a difference. That's a thriving family, and one more part is a family that do not forget their roots, they don't forget where they came from.
SPEAKER_02What do you hope your children understand about you that others will never understand?
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's a tough question. I want my children to know why I did all of the things I ever did, and I want them to flip through the album when I'm no longer here and see different aspects of my life and know why that happened, and know that it wasn't about me and that it was about XYZ and that mom was trying to achieve these things. One of the proudest moments of my life was when my daughter challenged herself to do something very difficult at school and she did it. And when I was congratulating her and hugging her and kissing her, she said, Mom, I'm the daughter of a lion. Oh, I wanted to bust with pride. I was so happy because I was like, if there's nothing else I've achieved in this world, my daughter can aim for the stars because she knew that her mother was not just aiming for the stars, but doing the things that she said she would do. So yeah, I don't know if that answers the question.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that definitely did it. Um, yeah, that's different. You mentioned album and then I have this.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01Oh, what inspired?
SPEAKER_02I read it. I finished, I made sure, like I had a few pages left. I'm like, I have to see how this ends. And then I finished it this morning. So, what inspired this?
SPEAKER_00You have blown me away. Oh, you've blown me away.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so much. It's so nice. I think you should write more. I mean, I think you should specialize in writing children's stories, you know, and if because I love stories, right? And I read a lot of them when I was younger, when I was young, right, as a child, right? And I know that the truth our children, our children here in the diaspora, right, they need they need the type of a connection between here and back home, right? So if somebody can actually bridge that gap by writing these type of stories that connects to back home, those type of um um grandparents, moonlight stories, they incorporate them. That would be that would be really, really nice. So this is good.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02And I'm going to keep it until my child grows up to start reading to know.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02This is probably gonna be the first book that she reads.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. Because you've blown me away truly.
SPEAKER_02Let's talk about album a little bit before we were coming to we're gradually coming to an end of this uh episode. Yeah, so before I even got to the end of the book, I'm like, oh, why are we not seeing why what happened to albums? And I remember when we are young, right, we travel home for Christmas, we're visiting families. The the first thing they hand us is an album, and we'll go through it, and then they will explain to us who this person is, who was this, who is that, and it's just beautiful memories, right? All of a sudden, we're not seeing that anymore. It completely, even when people have albums, right? They like I have the one from our wedding, but the thing is, I have a visitor, I don't remember to bring it out. I just turned the TV on. I'm like, what do you want to watch? Uh Netflix or YouTube. So, what inspired this? That's what I want to understand. And I think people might, you know, whoever is listening or watching might want to know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. And thank you again. So I'm a change manager, and even before I got the certification, I've always had that perspective, and it's also something that I help teams with. Um, that's part of what I do. I'm a consultant and um I speak to you know organizational teams in organizations and try to build team cohesion. And one of the biggest themes that I talk about is change. It is constantly happening. We had the industrial age, we have had all of the changes in life. You used to have a Nokia phone or a flip phone, possibly, right? Everybody did. And at some point it was Google this, Google that, now it's Chat GPT, go check in Chat GPT. So the question is what happens? Are you gonna get left behind in a world that is constantly evolving and moving? So I wanted to bring down that change management perspective to children because when you migrate to a new country, that's a massive change that is going to happen in your life, or it's happening to you when you go to a new school, it's a new change. Your life is evolving. So, how do you keep up? And how do you not forget your essence? And you know, how do you still maintain your integrity and your pride in this story? Um, so the picture album, Al, is very worried about what's going to happen to me. Yeah, getting left behind. Like there are all these shiny objects that are coming up. There's a TV and all of those things, and he still needed to go back to himself and realize that he still has a place in this world. You want to change, but you don't want to lose yourself, which has kind of been the theme of our conversation over and over. And like you said, when we go back home and you bring out the picture album, people gather, it's an emotional moment, and there's no distraction.
SPEAKER_02Pass it around too sometimes, right?
SPEAKER_00And it evokes all these memories, you know. Like even when you see, I don't know, okay, most people still have like frames.
SPEAKER_02Our own is coming, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but there's something that happens, like uh in my house on the staircase, I have like little pictures of the children. Yeah, so every day when I woke up, at some point you stop seeing it, but there are some days when I pause and I say, Oh my goodness, this is when she was three years old. Yeah, this is when he was five years old, and sometimes in that moment it just lights up. Yeah, it lifts it lifts my heart. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02That's yeah, that's what these things do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the question is there's still a place for the old things, but be careful in being an old thing, realize don't be left behind, be left behind too. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's that's a good message, and the the storytelling in it too, and how you you know made these up Jets to have their own represent their individual personality, like the smartphone, the TV. I like how you describe the TV as um what was that? Uh the one that makes the whole family up best with all the calories that it has, right? And the the TV that thinks is the most important uh personality.
SPEAKER_00But isn't he, right? The TV is kind of like.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, interesting, but AI is taking over now, right? Because yeah, so um, yeah, that's really, really good, a good book. Thank you. What kind of legacy are you hoping to leave behind?
SPEAKER_00I I want to be remembered on how I constantly created a sense of love and belonging to people in the most vulnerable days of their lives, outside of being new in any country, because uh I mean eventually it's going to go beyond that, right? So I want all of the communities that I've created over time church community, the choir community, that's the kind of legacy that I want to live. That there was space for people to congregate. And when people congregate, so you know that saying we don't congregate because we don't have food in our house, we congregate, you know, because of the sense of brotherhood and sisterhood. And when people congregate, they are stronger. Like this is the imagery that comes up for me. A single broom can sweep this.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, that reminds me of another thing. You are grounded.
SPEAKER_00So a single broom can sweep this room, but it's not gonna clean out the whole room, and it's going to take a long time. But you put it together in a bunch and you have a full broom and you get the job done. So together we're we're better, and I want to be remembered for that.
SPEAKER_02That's great. For the broom symbolism, right? For people who did not understand, let me paint it as a mental picture for you, right? Let me describe it. Um, I remember, you know, we were born in the north in Nigeria, right? So when we come back um to the east in the village, and the grandparents, you know, they will bring a broom, right? And they will hand it to us, they'll hand it, pass it one by one, hand it to me. Then after me, I'll pass it on to the other person, right? And they ask us to try to break that broom. And it's a and it's a bunch of broom, right? Yes, you know, and you couldn't break it, right? So they're gonna take one out and then hand it to you and ask you to break it, and then you break it. So I didn't realize what's that what they were trying to teach us because I was like very, very young, right? I didn't, you know, like and when it was being done, it's not done as a joke. We're not joking around, we're not laughing, you know. It was more like a serious stuff, right?
SPEAKER_00Imagine as it should be, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but people will maybe you you squeeze out a giggle when somebody tried to break the broom and they're not able to break it. Some people think they can actually break the broom, right? So now I understand what it means, right? As I grew up, I understand what it means. That's really, really great.
SPEAKER_00So power of the collective, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Power of the collective, that's what it signifies. Okay, last question for you. What does meaningful life mean to you? And this is last question.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so I mean, I feel like staying longer. This this has just been like a friendly chat with a friend, as if I've known you for so many years. So thank you for creating this environment. Truly safe for you. Welcome. Um, a meaningful life is one that on the final day of your life, just before you know you go on to glory, that you can look back and say, I did something right, I did it well, I raised from and it has to be specific for each person. So it's just like KPIs. You have to put your own KPI of what a meaningful life looks like for you. For Normso Naddy, I've I'm going to categorize it into how well I treated my parents, how well I honored them, how well I showed up for my husband and my children, especially when they needed me the most, how well I served my community, how well I held myself in integrity, how well I treated my friends, how well I served my God. If I can look at all these things and say, I think I did it right, that would be a meaningful life.
SPEAKER_02That's great. Interesting. Well, um, like I said, um, that was the last question for this interview, and thank you very much for you know honoring this invitation. Um, I know how busy you are, um, but for you to make our time um to be here, to spend this moment um on this platform, that tells me that you value what we're doing. And, you know, I see that I that also tells me that everything that you said here um is actually the truth about you. You know, when you talk about respect, yeah, you know, I've during our conversation leading to our little chat leading to this very moment, right? Um everything you said here proves to me that everything you done during this period proved to me that everything that you said here is the truth. So thank you very much again for being here. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00It was such a pleasure being here. I had the best time, and I I thank you for the honor of inviting me to the catalysts, and I'm so excited at seeing how massively the catalyst platform is going to grow. I'm I'm now a shareholder, I'm invested.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much. Good to know, good to know. Thank you. The question is whether that evolution is conscious or accidental. If this conversation stirs something in you, don't rush past it. Sit with it, share it, talk about it. This is how change begins. This is a catalyst.