Talking Wise
The podcast about logistics, self-employment, and what it actually takes to scale without the wheels coming off.
Talking Wise
Episode 4: Right to Work Checks explained: What logistics businesses need to know
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Right to Work checks are a legal requirement for UK businesses - but many still aren’t confident they’re getting them right.
We're breaking down Right to Work checks in simple terms. We cover what a valid Right to Work check looks like in the UK, who is responsible for carrying out checks, when they need to happen, and the consequences of getting it wrong.
We also explore how businesses engaging self-employed workers can protect themselves from fines, legal risk, and reputational damage - without adding unnecessary admin.
People do get confused about the difference between right-to-work and a right-to-work check. Skipping a right to work check is like paying for a holiday on your credit card. You know, you get the tan, right? You get the hits. You get the work done straight away, but it's a long winter. It's a long winter paying off the consequences.
SPEAKER_00I like that.
SPEAKER_02You still have the tattoo. The tan will be long gone, alright? You'll still be paying for it. It doesn't matter. You're responsible for carrying out the right-to-work check for your business owner.
SPEAKER_07I feel like we're one of the only companies actually trying to educate people on this final countdown. Yeah, because you've got shit. What do you say about prison? Rotted in prison. I don't think you're using rot to work checks, though. I've got a good song for right to work checks. I'm an Englishman in New York. Whoa. I'm alien. Are all yours just a coming? I'm actually gonna say smack that. Who is your favourite footballer play?
SPEAKER_01Hi, Richard.
SPEAKER_08Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to Talking Wise, the podcast for logistics and self-employment.
SPEAKER_07And what it takes to scale without the wheels coming off.
SPEAKER_01I'm Chloe and I'm joined by Dan Richards, Deputy CEO, Trevoran, Accouncillet Wise. Dan, who's this podcast for?
SPEAKER_07A little bit different to usual. This podcast is for anyone that engages anyone to provide services for them. So whether you're employed, self-employed, or anything in between, this episode's for you.
SPEAKER_01And a quick note this is general info, not legal or tax advice.
SPEAKER_07And we're going to keep it super practical and give you stuff to take away and action in your business immediately.
SPEAKER_01Ready?
SPEAKER_07Let's go. Okay. Who is your favourite footballer, Chloe?
SPEAKER_01I'm not really a football fan, but I naturally went with Jack Grealish.
SPEAKER_07Why Jack Grealish?
SPEAKER_01For me.
SPEAKER_07I can tell you he'd be the bottom of my models if you do the right-to-work checks.
SPEAKER_01Then explain that, so then I thought, okay, I get that. So then I went, who's not a footballer anymore, I don't think, but who was high rate.
SPEAKER_03Oh my gosh. Just remind us the question is who you'd get to do your right-to-work checks if it was a footballer.
SPEAKER_07You definitely picked the two that I'd put at the bottom of my list.
SPEAKER_01Then I've done some research and I'm with Jordan Henderson now. Okay.
SPEAKER_07That's decent.
SPEAKER_01Responsible apparently. Reliable.
SPEAKER_07But do you know who Jordan Henderson is?
SPEAKER_01He's a footballer, yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_07Well, that is true. He's a footballer.
SPEAKER_01England captain and Liverpool captain. Actually, I think he plays somewhere else now.
SPEAKER_07He does, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Fancy Arabia?
SPEAKER_07No, he's moved back now, hasn't he? He's back, yeah. Does he play for Brent Brentford? No. Oh God. U turn. Brentford, isn't it? Uh I don't know. I'm thinking of the other guy. Oh, we won't get judged on this. Yeah. Yeah, we won't get judged on this. Now mine's good choice, yeah. Mine actually is very similar, cut from Jordan Henderson. Yeah. Uh Mr. Reliable himself, James Milner.
SPEAKER_01No idea who that is.
SPEAKER_07James Milner, you you would always James Milner's everything by the book, right? Everything by the book. He turns up, he's always reliable. He's about to be the Premier League's leading appearance uh maker. Uh yeah. Uh James Milner never makes mistakes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'd say so that's what I was thinking about actually. I think he's with Brighton, isn't he? Yeah, he's with Brighton. Yeah, yeah. Uh so okay. I can't believe you didn't pick Paul McGrath. Uh for all he did for you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, you're the labeled there at the back.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, you're right, but you didn't train Paul McGrath. That's his knees. Yeah, he was his knees, yeah. You know what it's like with regulation, Trevor, you gotta keep on top of it. Yeah. I mean, and McGrath would be too busy getting a massage, flying around. Yeah, yeah. Now I think I know who you're gonna pick on Trevor. Right.
SPEAKER_03So who would you pick? Do your job.
SPEAKER_02The only one, Roy Keane. Yeah. Can you imagine? Yeah. Roy Keane marching down the depot one morning, you know, going, Do you alright to work?
SPEAKER_07You would be scared, wouldn't you? Yeah. You'd be more you'd strike more fear into you than James Milner. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah. Probably would. I reckon James Milner and Roy Keane would make a great double axe, actually. Uh you got the one, the f the the the stick and the carrot, Joe. James Milner would come in, you might have a nice cup of Yorkshire tea, and then you'd know Roy Keane is chomping out the absolute bits. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You big thing.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back, Trev. Thanks, Lloyd. Podcast number two.
SPEAKER_02Really looking forward to it.
SPEAKER_01Our right-to-work expert in-house.
SPEAKER_07What a thing to be an expert on, eh? It has amazed me actually, Trevor, how you have gone from I'm not saying knowing nothing about rock-to-work checks, uh, but from that to knowing probably more than anyone else that I know.
SPEAKER_02Yes, when you just start looking at it and see the consequences of getting it wrong. You know, it's go, oh my God. Yeah, it's cracked. And uh it's going to come into everyone's world over the course of of this year and so on. Yeah. And it is it is a big deal.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm spending a disproportionate amount of time at the moment talking about right-to-work checks, and actually, from a wise perspective, uh, it's good mm legislation for us because it falls directly into how we help our customers. But it is quite astounding actually how wrong people do get it and the misunderstandings out there. So, yeah, it's a it's it's actually a fascinating topic if you if you're that way inclined, as we are.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But it's great to have a solution, and we do, and that's we're here to talk about it, and we have a solution for people, you know. So that's great. Great.
SPEAKER_01And to start, let's um go into what a right to work check is.
SPEAKER_02So right to work itself is a legal status. Um, and uh there's there's there's two aspects to it. There's from the individual and it's from the employer. So an individual has to have the right to work in the UK to accept work, and it's an offence and a serious offence, you know, to pinge on that. And the employer or someone engaging someone uh has to check that that person has the right to work in the UK. Um it's broke down into two categories, really. It's uh homegrown or global talent. So homegrown is a UK or Irish passport, and everybody else in the world is subject to immigration control, and that means they have to get a share code from the Home Office.
SPEAKER_01Okay. And are all right to work checks valid, or is that something that people need to do?
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, this this if uh I for right to work check to be valid, uh, and you know, the we will we will talk, we'll get into detail about this, about an automated right-to-work check, but uh for it to be valid, there are there are clear things that has to be done. One of the things about the legislation is while you know, while it's tough, for sure, there is clarity, you know, and as regards what it is, uh who has to do it, when it has to be carried out, there was real clarity there in fairness to that. So that is easier for people that have to um that have to abide by this, which is every business in the UK.
SPEAKER_07Uh what I do think is interesting about this is and I said this at a talk that I did uh yesterday, it won't be yesterday when this goes out, but it's yesterday now. Um it does remove some of what felt grey around do you need to do it for self-employed subcontractors? Um, whereas it's it's quite black and white now that that yes you do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so that's again that's coming back to the clarity, that's totally gone. At the moment, while the Home Office strongly recommends that you check the right to work for someone who's uh self-employed, this new legislation uh removes that and is now very much in scope. Self the self-employed workers are now very much in scope.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, and I think this is actually one of the podcasts that we're going to record that actually anyone could listen to because this applies to everyone, doesn't it? Now I mean it it always has if you're employing people, but I think now that subcontractors are fully in scope, something that every business has got sex seriously.
SPEAKER_02And in terms of clarity, did it once not was it once confusing to do a right to work check or uh yeah, well, as regards clarity around who was in scope, um it was just what as we discussed there about self-employed, there was some great area there, but that's that's very much in it now. Um But uh as regards what's a valid right to work check, there is really clarity on that now. Uh and that is the the passport or the share code.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I think we're gonna come on to it, but I think the the bit of it as well is where it is a temporary right to work, is making sure that you're redoing that right to work check right when that when that temporary sort of part of it expires.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and again, uh the new regulations uh temporary leaves remain. Okay, you know, there is talk that that is going to be considerably longer period of time, uh, which means that there could be a longer period there uh for a time-limited right to work. And a time-limited right to work is a fine waiting to happen because all that's required for it to become a fine is the path to time, and I can absolutely guarantee you. Of course, yeah. You know, so that's why it is so vital that you have you know functionality like we have at the expiry hub and so on to alert uh when when a time limited right to work is about to expire. Yeah, for sure, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01Cheeky plug.
SPEAKER_02Cheeky plug, yeah. Sorry.
SPEAKER_07Cheeky plugs. Cheeky plug don't sound right, does it? Yeah, it doesn't sound right, yeah. I'm not sure. I'm not sure I'm in for a cheeky plug.
SPEAKER_06Well you get to see when you're cheeky plugs.
SPEAKER_01Cheeky plug?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, cheeky plug, yeah.
SPEAKER_01What would you say?
SPEAKER_06That's not all right. The cheeky words cheeky and plug together, I just don't don't got more than right to work.
SPEAKER_01So now we know what a right to work is. Who is responsible for a right to work?
SPEAKER_02Okay, it's really simple. If you're a business owner, it's you. Uh you know, it's very simple. It doesn't matter how you met the person, uh, it doesn't matter whether it was a recruitment agency, whether it was a platform, yeah, whether it was, you know, some guy you met in the pub. Okay, it doesn't matter. You are responsible for carrying out the right-to-work check if you're a business owner.
SPEAKER_07I said this to someone recently, um, and uh I said, look, I'm gonna go as close to home here as to say it doesn't matter if it's your brother, right? It could be your twin. If they're providing services to you, right, and you haven't done a right to work check on them, you can be fined. That's the reality, right?
SPEAKER_02Well, it's all fine and well, you're trying to explain to the Home Office, say, you know, well, I was on holidays with Thomas in Magaloof and I noticed he had a British passport. Yeah, yeah, having a fly. No, it's not gonna fly. No, it's not gonna fly.
SPEAKER_07And I think you need to really important uh distinction there as well, around um that having the right to work and having a right to work check, you know, they're two different things, right? And I think people sometimes get a bit confused by that because they'll go, Well, I know he's my twin, so I know he's got the right to work, but that doesn't mean you've got a right to work check.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I also need to be careful as well about that you you need to check everyone because uh say, for example, you know, say when I started here, right? Dan, if you went, if you heard his accent, someone check his right to work. Okay, that is a serious breach because preference it's a breach to the Equality Act. Yeah, you can't just decide to check someone's right to work because they don't look or sound like us, for example, all right? Uh you must check everyone.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, you're right. You've been lotting me on something actually when you did start, Trevor, which you know, let's bore everyone for 30 seconds like you bored me. Um, but Irish passports do count, right? Yeah in the UK. Why?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I'm glad you asked, actually, because it goes back quite a bit. It's it's it's because of the common travel area, okay? It's not EU joining or leaving, yeah, you know, or or or Brexit or anything to do with that. It it's it goes back, yeah. It's over a hundred years, it's the oldest uh open borders arrangement in the world, and it's the most comprehensive. Is it really? Yeah, because um, and it's reciprocal. So you two guys could come over and work in Ireland, for example. We'll get you a job. Yeah, fine, yeah. Put in turf or something, right?
SPEAKER_07Oh, I need you said something there, because it's not American.
SPEAKER_02I knew what it was, yeah. Anyway, yeah, it'll be okay. So and it's not just work, it's it's you can access services, you know, you can vote again both Irish people in in England, English people in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales or whatever. Wow. Yeah, and it is so yeah, it's quite thin.
SPEAKER_07I think the first time you bored me this, I maybe wasn't listening because that's more that's definitely more interesting this time around. Okay, okay, okay, yeah. Note yourself, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I hate to be that person, bit confused. So even if as a business owner, I'm responsible for a right to work, even if I have third party suppliers, use agencies, I'm still responsible.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. So if Company A engages company B to deliver parcels, and company B engages individual C, Company A is responsible, also responsible for checking individual C's right to work.
SPEAKER_07Oh god. I know. Yeah, it's an important, important distinction, right? It comes back to the new regulation that we've been talking about around joint responsibility. I think the bit of it as well, uh, which is important for people to realise, is that when you set up a limited company, the reason that a lot of people do that is the whole idea of a limited company is it limits liability. Um however, as we know with right to work checks, it extends to the directors and it can be criminal, not just civil. I think that's really important for people to realise.
SPEAKER_02Uh the consequences are are incredible, you know. And I know we talked at the beginning about why it was incidental, but when when you do start to read into it, you know, you go, Oh my god. Um so there's there's two aspects to it. Yes, and I know we're you know we're possibly going to talk about this later on again, but there is the £60,000 fines. But that that's one aspect. And that then if you're a director of a company and you knowingly engage with someone who doesn't have who you suspect doesn't have uh the right to work, um you know, that that's potentially prison time. Dispared as a director, yeah, and all the else uh that goes along with that, you know. You know, it's suspecting that someone might not have the right to work is a low enough bar to breach.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_02You know, people need to realise that. Yeah. And that there is so there is that other aspect to it, you know.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, no, it's uh you know, it's I I do sympathise with people that especially use temporary workforce, that you know, these right to work regulations are gonna be you know a an ever-evolving thing to sort of manage, right? Um, but uh it's just so important, that's the reality.
SPEAKER_01So say Trev, when should a right to work check actually take place?
SPEAKER_02Well, again, there's a lot of clarity here, you know, it's before you engage the person, so at and onboarding, you know, and onboarding is like uh is like the architecture for stability of your business. You know, if you get that right, it's a great opportunity to signal to staff coming in that compliance is taken seriously here, and it's it's an opportunity to signal to suppliers, to customers, to competitors that there's a price to get into this club and this is it. You know, you get that right at the beginning, um, you know, it's a great foundation. Um, skipping a right-to-work check is like you know, paying for a holiday on your credit card. You know, you get the tan, right? You get the haste, you get the work done straight away, but it's a long winter. It's a long winter paying off the consequences.
SPEAKER_00I like that.
SPEAKER_02You fill out the tattoo, the tan will be long gone, all right? And you'll still be you'll still be paying for it.
SPEAKER_07That is a great analogy. That is a great analogy. What's what is interesting about that, and I think again, people listening that maybe are going, uh oh, didn't do right-to-work checks the first time around. There is some bad news there, which is whilst you can do a right-to-work check now, it doesn't absolve you of the of not doing it originally right. So I think it's a case of you know, get your house in order, make sure that you're clear you're clear and you've done the right checks going forward. Um, but getting it right now is you know, it's almost it doesn't remedy the past, but it definitely put you in a better position for the future.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and you know, part of our role too is to educate people because you know um the people won't be aware of what's coming. So absolutely from now on, at onboarding is when you check right to work, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01For those companies that you said, Dan, about that haven't done it originally, what is anything they can do?
SPEAKER_07Or is it just Yeah, I mean again that there is clarity on this uh and it's an interesting one because especially if you're dealing with self-employed subcontractors, because you've had that sort of that grey area of it not necessarily being clear that you have to do rights to work checks or not, you you have got, you know, and this is opinion for sure, you've got almost a I wouldn't say grace period, it's definitely not the right word, but you've got an opportunity now to get your house in order and make sure that you've got the right checks and systems in place so that you're clear for the future. But I will be clear that when the when the new bill, the new regulation is law, not doing one, but then doing one today won't absolve you of the past, uh, because as Trevor rightly said, you need to be doing that before the engagement starts.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_07So the the message is, and I know you've got a little phrase, Trevor, that you can you can sort of uh slot into this your little slogan that you've got. Don't sign up. No, no, the other one actually, you're rhyming your rhyming one. Uh and you're gonna get me to steal your thunder, yeah. Yeah, I think it's great. I think I there's a lot to fix in 26.
SPEAKER_03A lot to fix in 26. Yeah, yeah, but the checker check only works when you see it and done. Oh god, yeah.
SPEAKER_07Uh yeah, fixing 26. Uh but I think, you know, I think Chloe, to answer your question, I think now's the time to get your house in order. Don't wait. If you're concerned or you've got you haven't got processes in place, then doing it now is gonna, you know, potentially save you a lot of pain later. We don't know how lenient the Home Office and people like that are gonna be on it. You know, if history serves you correctly, normally they operate a little bit of a okay, well, make sure you sort this out policy. But they haven't so far with wrote to UX. They've been pretty harsh with the with the penalties. And I think I saw 130 million of fines last year for for not having wrote to works. Uh how many arrests, Trevor?
SPEAKER_02So there was uh 12 and a half, over 12,000 arrests in the last 18 months, which were the result of 17,000 uh raids by the Home Office. And I use the word reigns because that's the words that they use. Yeah, they don't say visits or audits, they call them raids.
SPEAKER_07Raid does struggles a bit more fear into the if I'm getting a visit from someone, then I'm maybe like, can I make a cup of tea if I'm getting a raid? You know what I mean? I'm emptying my drawers out. Okay, right, yeah. Yeah, but I think I've seen as well, I'm pretty sure, I don't know which way around this is, but I'd use the average of the two. That both of those two things, uh arrests and raids, both went up by 50% in 2025.
SPEAKER_02Oh, was it more? Oh, so yeah, it's just and and that's been because they got more funding to do it, and it's only it's only gone one way. It's only gone one way, yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_07So let's talk about the actual new regulation, Trevor, and I'm gonna get the words in the right order here, because this is the first challenge, right? Okay. So we've got the Border Security, Asylum, and Immigration Act 2025. Bingo. Bingo. I got it right, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So tell us about it. Yeah, well, we've read it, and more importantly, we've got some people that went to law school to read it as well. In in some detail. So um, for you know, for the environment that we operate in primarily, uh, there's two key aspects to it. That is uh the inclusion of other working arrangements and extension of liability. So other working arrangements is essentially self-employed, you know. Um and extension of liability is the where they're widening the scope, um, where there's more than is possible for more than one prosecution from a single breach. So basically, in in logistics, as we as uh we're we have been talking about previously, um, you're talking about one company engaging another and that company then engaging a third party uh to provide services for them once they're delivering in their name. Um the company A is also responsible for to check the right to work of individual C.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, and I think that's uh a crucial part of this new legislation, right? I think that's the delivering the name off. Uh and I'm we always go to deliver um because we're you know got our logistics hats on, but is anyone working in the name off is anything? So we will bring uh construction, big construction sites and things like that into scope as well.
SPEAKER_02For sure, so it's benefiting from the work. Yeah, you know, ultimately. So it brings um a whole host of people uh into scope, a whole host of businesses into scope were in previously.
SPEAKER_01Is it live now or is it coming soon?
SPEAKER_02So uh the the act is on the statute books, yes, and uh some aspects of it have been brought in. Uh what we're talking about uh just now is expects to be brought in at some point throughout um uh 2026. They haven't given us a date yet. Uh but that's um uh we're expecting to get a date quite soon um and we expect that that will um come into effect at some point this year. But the most important thing is is now is the time to review your processes. Now is the time to do something about it because you know the last thing you want to happen is that you know any network anywhere gets destabilized because this came in too quickly um and which is possible, you know, and and you know, we don't want disruptions to service or anything like that. So there is going to be, you know, we are advising, you know, a significant lead-in time to roll this out.
SPEAKER_07I think it's interesting actually because you know, again, I spend you know disproportionate amount of time talking about this, but I feel like we're one of the only companies that are actually trying to educate people on this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03No one's trying to educate us.
SPEAKER_07Right, yeah, we we dug it out ourselves, yeah enough, didn't we? Yeah. Um but yeah, I mean I'm I'm talking To you know, we are as a business talking to you know big global names here that you know they they're hearing about this new legislation for the first time when we're telling them. Uh so typical, you know, let's not turn this into uh a UK government um sort of this. Um but typical uh under education on this topic, isn't there?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but I'm sure there will be you know public awareness campaigns and all that about it when uh when it is coming closer to time and hope. Um otherwise we're gonna be busy.
SPEAKER_07I think I mean uh clearly immigration is a big topic, right, for the country or for the world actually in general. So you think that there'll be a bit of there'll be a bit of a storm around this actually because the whole idea of it is right is to stop people that don't have the right to work working here. That's it, bottom line.
SPEAKER_02And practically all of the world outside of UK and Ireland, subject to immigration control in the UK. You know, it's a really, really big piece. Yeah, it is yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01So we've already briefly covered the risks, but can we just go over it again to make it really clear for those watching and listening?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because it's really important. So obviously um this the fines are in place, um £60,000 um per worker that doesn't have if you've caught to have been engaged with someone who doesn't have the right to work. Um and that's obviously that's for everyone, you know. And as we discussed as well, that's up the chain to different businesses. Uh it's not that the fine is is passed on. Uh both businesses pay the fine, you know, so it'll be 120 per per breach in that in those circumstances. Uh and then you know, i if if a business was to continue on engaging with someone who they knew didn't have a right to work, well that's you know, uh potentially being dispared as a director or potentially prison type. You know, so really, really significant consequences.
SPEAKER_07Without uh discounting the fact that uh there is reputational damage, right? Because you can make uh HMRC or the home offices sort of name and shameless, right? Which can make it really difficult for you to do business in the future.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so you your your choice is is pay the fine immediately and don't appear on the list. And if for ever whatever reason, if you're contesting it or anything, if you don't pay the fine immediately, you will be on the name and shame list, you know. And it's published every quarter on the home office website, and it makes grim reading.
SPEAKER_07It does, yes. I know that they do a similar thing for companies caught in tax avoidance schemes. The HMRC will put you on their sort of like watch lists, don't work with or be mindful working with these companies. It's gonna be similar, and I think because of that extension of liability, companies will be taking this a lot more seriously than they are now. Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01And it's a bad PR because I saw that chippy man um with £40,000.
SPEAKER_07The chippy man.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, for sure. It is. Uh, and uh the extension liability means as well that that's the kind of PR you don't want out there, and you're gonna struggle to get work.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, you definitely don't want your name in the or your face in the paper, do you? I mean that picked up bloke look particularly sad in the picture. He looked like his chips are going cold. Oh, that's not fair. Okay, we'll go.
SPEAKER_01Could I say one thing? Do you remember when we keep saying locked up? Or prison? Yeah? Keep going to in my head, I'm singing icon.
SPEAKER_08Sing what is it weird that I sung icon as well? Trevor's thinking, who the hell's icon? No.
SPEAKER_01Oh god, a rapper, is he?
SPEAKER_08Yes, no, somewhat rapper slash singer.
SPEAKER_01Singer. But he has a song called Locked Up, so you keep saying prison, and in my head I'm just singing that.
SPEAKER_08Why?
SPEAKER_01Locked up in prison.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, no, but why are you thinking of icon? 'Cause his song's called Locked Up. Okay.
unknownI don't know.
SPEAKER_01What song would you sing, like S Pub 7?
SPEAKER_07Well I wouldn't sing anything to be honest with you. I'm talking about Right to World Checks. I'm not necessarily got icon on the mind if I mentioned you, but yeah, I mean if you want a theme tune for what the consequences of rock to art checks could be, I mean, locked up by icon probably would be a good one.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. That would have been a good question, actually.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Good to pick a song. Pick a song for the consequences of right to art checks. Yeah, Clubbies would be Aikon Locked Up. Um I actually like that song. Yeah, yeah. I like this idea. I do as well. Well, this idea. Yeah. Well, what other songs can we think of? Um this is uh The final countdown. Yeah, because Johnny Cash. Yeah, yeah. Uh what did he sang a song about prison? Johnny Cash sang a song about prison. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, probably, yeah. Ross was in prison. He wrote in prison? Yeah. I don't think he was in Barot Well, I checked him, was him. Uh yeah, I doubt it. I know Johnny Cash was locked up because he didn't check one of the fellow band members' rotts work documents. Yes. Um there's bands to be loads that we can probably think of. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Lonely, a bit another icon.
SPEAKER_07Why lonely?
SPEAKER_01Lonely in prison.
SPEAKER_07I don't think just the problem. Are all yours just acon and icon? I'm actually gonna say smack that. I mean I don't know. My mouth. But maybe get smacked about my the home office when I have a right to work document about Akon again. Uh Chloe, we basically established in this little section that Chloe can only think of Akon songs. Okay. Yeah, okay. Um I think that's one for another time, maybe. Pick your song to match your right to work consequences and uh Chloe's submission is locked up by Akon. I think he features someone as well, doesn't it? Was it just Akon?
SPEAKER_01Don't know, not a Die Hard fan.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, it'd be great if we could feature someone as well, because then you could say they both got locked up. Sure. You're not a diehard fan, because you mentioned him four times in this on this little section here. Oh, just a fan. Not a diehard. Not a diehard. Oh, fair enough. Yeah, I don't know what the distinction is there. No, not Joe either myself.
SPEAKER_01How can businesses protect themselves from right to work?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so really you want to be looking at automated right-to-work checks. Okay, to keep the process as simple as possible. Automated right-to-work checks are like that digital handshake that takes place when you go to tap for something and you go to pay for it. The money is either in your account or it isn't, you know? It's a yes or a no. That's it with an automated right-to-work check. The document is checked, it's verified, it's ran through all the different algorithms that it needs to go through and it comes back with a yes or a no. And then you have done as an employer, you have taken all reasonable steps to sh to uh check that that person has a valid right to work, and then once you do the imposter check as well, you'll go to the home office comes in.
SPEAKER_01And in this automatic check, what makes it compliant? Like what are the steps?
SPEAKER_02Well, say for example, in in with if it's a passport, you know, there are a number of checksums in a passport, like anti-fraud measures, and all those calculations will be taking place automatically to make sure that the right number of digits are there, etc. etc. MLZ and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, all that is checked, yeah. And then um if it's uh the share code, well then that that goes to the home office. And then that's you have to go through that process whereby you you uh enter the code and you get the PDF and you retain that you know for your records.
SPEAKER_07I know the one that we're working with, obviously layers on top, the ID part as well, right? So you do the liveness checks, a bit like if you've ever opened a digital bank account and they get used to all the head stuff, you know, and you're wiggling your head around to sort of make it recognize that it's you, but uh they've also services like that as well, right? That will do that ID part of it as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it's really important that, okay, so if you have been interacting with someone and who sends you these documents and so on, it's really important then that you check that that is actually the person that shows up to work to you, you know, and you have to retain proof of that. That's why we get them to capture an image and it'll be stored in our platform. Again, these are the steps that you have to take and you have to follow to give yourself what's called a statutory excuse in the event that the home office comes in uh and check it. But it is really, really important that the the person who eventually shows up for work is the person who has been exchanging this documentation with you.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, of course, yeah. And I think you know, we've talked about uh the automatic part of it. But I think uh to be clear about something, manual right-to-work checks do still suffice, right? What we're saying is the automated side of it is another layer of protection because you're not then uh almost becoming a fraud expert. Do you know what I mean? Because you know, spotting fraudulent documents can be tricky, but the automatic part of it will almost give you that assurance.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and you just have to remember the consequences of getting it wrong. Manual checks are fine. If that's the road you want to go down, fine, you know. But you have to remember the consequences of getting that wrong.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, for sure, yeah. And I think just to touch on this, I think it is super important, and I this is something that do people do get confused about the difference between right to work and a right to work check, right? So you've got to have proof that you've checked the right to work. So that typically includes putting a like a timestamp on a photocopy, for instance, of the right to work, if you were doing it manually, let's say. Obviously, if you're doing it in the system, then that might have a date and a timestamp included by default, but just having a picture of a of a passport isn't proof that you've done the check. You need to have that data. I know that the Home Office has some wording which almost suffices a declaration that they almost say you could attach onto a manual check if you do want, saying I so and so declare that I did a right to work check, etc. So I think that's an important distinction, right? The check Vs, the actual right to work. Great.
SPEAKER_01And regardless of the route, the manual or automated, how long do you have to keep the documents for?
SPEAKER_07Or um is it seven years? No, that's tax. So as long as they're providing services for you, and then two years after they start providing services, you have to keep a record of it. Um, so you start providing services today, you have an obligation to hold that for two years and then you can destroy it. Um, but the seven years show where you got that from is that's for tax bugs. Yeah, tax, yeah. Then you got the five years for commercial reasons. Yeah. So yeah, there's lots of different years basically you keep things for. Um but yeah, two years for a for a rock to work the check.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, manual, that's where it gets tricky, I presume, with keep storing it, keeping it safe.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I mean, what won't be an excuse that uh a raid will accept is not where I put it, it's in the drawer. It's a drink of is the old classic one, isn't it? It's in my drawer. Problem is I've lost my drawer. Dog get my drawer. Yeah, yeah. That one won't yeah, dog get my drawer, yeah. That one, that's not gonna fly. No. No.
SPEAKER_01So automation is the way forward, is that what we're saying?
SPEAKER_07100%. I think, yeah, automation is definitely the best way to go. I think sort of second best is having a good system wrapped around doing manual checks if that's the way that you're gonna go. I think my the worst case scenario, of course, apart from not doing right-to-work checks, or the worst way of doing them for me would be doing them manually, having paper photo copies, keeping them in a drawer somewhere, notwithstanding the fact that you don't want to leave someone's PI available for someone to just come along and and steal. Uh so you've got all that risk, you know, warehouse burns down, you lose all your paperwork, you know, these are the things that you're trying to avoid.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the reality is that's it's very difficult to do manual checks at scale, you know, and most of what we're talking about is at scale.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, for sure. Chloe said the statement, where do you learn general knowledge? Yeah. Yeah. Um that was about Concord, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01Uh that's it. Wasn't that Concorde? Yeah, I've never heard of Concord.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I I say a lot of things that just Sorry, to be clear, when you said that, then you meant Chloe had never heard of Concord. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The flight thing.
SPEAKER_07The flight thing, yeah. The flight thing. The flight thing, yeah. Do you know what? I'm gonna say something now, some words that I didn't plan on saying today. I'm fascinated by Concord, I am right. I'm really fascinated by it. I watched loads of if I see a Concord video as I'm scrolling, I'll watch it.
SPEAKER_08Why didn't you fly?
SPEAKER_07Because it's just another thing to be to be fascinated by.
SPEAKER_02We will be fascinated by it sooner, because Concord went from what He throws to New York in what, like three and a half hours. Was that it? Yeah. Okay. So we're gonna have you know, probably this decade, right? We're gonna have same-day deliveries from LA to Shanghai. Do you reckon? Yeah, Starship.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, six cents a pound. Starship. Yeah, well, I know what Chloe's thinking. She's thinking. I know what I was thinking.
SPEAKER_07Is that what you was thinking?
SPEAKER_01Aliens, I was thinking of spaceship.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, spaceship, exactly. Yeah, aliens. Yeah, yeah. Not what Chloe's thinking, mate. She's she's got like, I don't know. What's that film of Will Smith in it? Um, you know, you know. Oh exactly. Okay. So you know. It's an FO. It's an FO. It's an FO, I F. Identify flying objects. Oh no, I don't find flying objects.
SPEAKER_01God, you don't do things today, right to work an alien.
SPEAKER_07We learn aliens? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we learn aliens apparently. Yeah, okay. We learn aliens, yeah. Yeah, we learn aliens. Legal aliens. Yeah, illegal aliens. Ah, I've got a good song for right to work checks. Um, what's the song that Sting sings?
SPEAKER_02I'm an alien. I'm a legal alien. Yeah. About the civil servant who moved to New York.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but Yeah! Who was it? Quentin? No. Um, how's the song go? Um, I know what the song goes. Uh no, of course. How does it go on? Englishman in New York. Yeah. Oh yeah. I'm an Englishman in New York. Whoa! I'm an alien. I'm a legal alien. Right to work checks because well, no, because he's a legal alien, isn't it?
SPEAKER_07He's allowed to be there. Okay. Um he's an Englishman in New York, though. Okay. Yeah. Can you think about that? I like my toes buttered on one side.
SPEAKER_08I can't think of the song.
SPEAKER_07Well, I've got mine now. Um that's it. English Man in New York. Okay. Um, although I really like that song, but I think it gets too jazzy at the end for me. I sort of like them at first minute and a half. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Alright.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so the business takes just one thing away from this episode. What should it be?
SPEAKER_07I think for me, everything that I've digested about rotts work checks over the last year, if I was giving a business some advice on what to do, I think it's put a robust process around rotators work checks.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_07I think the degrees that you go to around automating it and everything else, you know, are definitely going to improve your process. But I think the most important part is having a process. And as you said earlier, Trevor, making it part of the way you work, make sure it's in your onboarding process. It's a non-negotiable, I think, for businesses going forward. So I'd summarise it in put a process around route to work checks and make sure that your business sticks to it. There's a lot to fix in 26.
SPEAKER_01And that's the message.
SPEAKER_02That's the message. Thanks, Lloyd.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Trevor.
SPEAKER_02My pleasure. Thanks, Dan.
