Episode 6: Self-employment across industries: Insights into private hire

We're joined by Gary Jacobs, founder of Gigzee and Eazitax, to explore the realities of self-employment in private hire and what businesses across industries can learn.

We talk the challenges drivers face day-to-day, the rules and regulations operators need to navigate, and how lessons from private hire can apply to logistics and other sectors. Whether you’re a private hire operator, a logistics business, or a self-employed driver, this episode gives you a clear picture of what works - and what to watch out for - when managing self-employed teams.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Understanding tax isn't easy. Understanding what to keep back from a tax perspective can be quite complicated.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Don't let the HMRC be a thorn in your side. You be a thorn in their side. You bring it bring it to them. Messi doesn't help anymore. This idea that if my life is confusing enough, the HRC goes no no no no no.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

You're a construction worker that buys her own tools. You know, that's almost part of your business customer at that point, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 0:26

You've just taken one of the most complicated argument cases and then brought it in as an example. It's nice to be financially literate. You don't have to be financially literate, you just have to be ordered. Don't take more out than you need to. You don't spend money on stuff that you don't need to. Delay your gratification until you've hit that point. Your business is your baby that will grow and look after you in your old age. Don't do it harm. That was quite impassioned, wasn't it? It's very impassionate, actually, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

The single biggest piece of advice is actually to Welcome to Talking Wise, the podcast for logistics and self-employment and what it takes to scale without the wheels coming off. I'm Dan Richards, the host, and today we're talking to Gary Jacobs about private hire, self-employment, accountancy, and his other business gigzer. Gary, good to have you, my friend. Nice to be here. So do you want to give us the Gary Jacobs story? I've heard it many times over the years, but I think the listeners would probably like to know a bit about you.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Well, uh, yeah, with pleasure. Um, as I always wanted to say, I'm an accountant by training, um, but uh uh everybody always says I don't sound like an accountant, and uh unfortunately I'm reaching an age where I look like an accountant. So um I started my practice 30 years ago. Um strange enough, I was originally an insurance broker. I trained to be. Yeah, I don't know if you signed that before, actually. Yeah, um, and um I I thought to myself, what's what's the most boring thing I could do? Became an insurance broker and suddenly realised I'd missed the accountancy um the buzz of accountant. Yeah, the buzz of accountancy. Woo! Um and when I was uh qualifying, when I was doing my exams, um my my first uh I drove a minicab basically. Okay. So my first clients were ground transport. Um and also uh my background in uh uh insurance broking, I used to look after large private hire fleets. So when I came out of there, I just had lots of contacts there. Okay. Um so I really started doing tax returns from a shed at the bottom of my garden 30 years ago, and that grew into the company that is now Easy Tax, um, which is a broad-based accountancy service. Um, and along the way, I really spend most of my time nowadays doing consultancy work for large um private hire and logistic entities, and I do a lot of conflict work as well, so I get involved with uh uh well, any form of internal and external conflict. Yeah, and um I'm also the CO of Gigsy, yes, of course, yeah, which is another product, uh financial, it's a fintech that uh it's basically and I'm sure we'll spake about a little bit more, but everything with me is seems to surround itself about but it's funny, I always say the same thing. I used to be introduced as a minicab accountant, but it seems this day uh I'm now a mobility expert, which I think is if you stand in the same place for long enough, it's the terms that change. So uh that's me really.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Yeah, good, good. And obviously, easy tax, you know, been th been around 30 years, but you do a lot more than than just accountants, you're right. I think you've sort of touched on it there, but I know you've been heavily involved in status inquiries and self-employment in general, right? Yes. Um as a percentage, how much of your time do you think you spent doing that sort of work?

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Gosh, uh, I think this well that I I tend to put that under the conflict banner. Yeah, of course. Um, status work, well, at one stage it was maybe 30, 40% of my time. Um, it's become you don't have to go far uh in the trade press to see um uh Uber's little thing, which kind of fed into a view from the HMRC. Yeah, and I work with um one or two other uh small consultancies that specialise in it. Um yeah, it takes up a significant part of my um consultancy time. But uh both after the acts fall and the conflict starts, but I do spend a lot of time cleaning up companies. Yeah, um, and you know what? Being a private hire operator, being a DSP, being anybody um relating to ground transport, you know, people have a very simple view of what they do. You're taking a password, you're taking a person from A to B. Actually, running these companies is very complex, especially with private hire. It's a very highly regulated industry. Yeah, you you've got to to run your business well, you've got to have a very strong model. There's huge amounts of regulations, there's the welfare of the public to keep in mind, there's a lot of press eyes on it. Um, so and and these things, you know, I always say the same thing. You've got to to keep you've got national legislation, you've got local authority legislation, and you've got regulations within the industry, and somewhere along the lines you've actually got to make a profit somehow. Yeah, no, you're right, yeah. So, yeah, we we spend a lot of time modelling companies to um you the truth is it's often a compromise, so it's you know putting the best model in place, and that's uh and and to be honest, uh I think from my perspective, um a lot of people go to solicitors, and a lot of people go to accountants who are and I see myself in a kind of middle space, yeah. I'm not a solicitor, solicitors will look at your contract obligations but won't always understand the way your company runs. Yeah, no, yeah, get that. Accountants will look at your numbers, but they still won't look at the way your business runs. We're like the the the hole in the sofa that catches the coins. Um we sit in the middle of these things to actually look at how the business runs and the protections that you need that have a foot in both camps. So I work with both legal teams and tax teams um um to put in place these and we call it a status audit, really. And it it it's it in it looks at how main contractors engage with the workers.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Yeah, no, sure, yeah. And I know that um you know what you've said resonates a lot with you know the DSPs that we deal with. And I think we fall into a similar sort of category actually where we understand enough about the legalities and enough about the operation that we can offer sort of more tailored, not advice from our perspective, but more guidance, I guess. So, you know, that is good to hear. And then the other part, I guess, Gary, of your uh general being, I guess, is you're on about a hundred panels, right? You're on a panel, you're on a panel for everything, aren't you?

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Yeah, I uh um yeah, I'm not hard to Google. Um so I think when you you sometimes you've got to put your hat in the ring. And so I act for the big trade associations, I don't know the um I like to name them, you know, the the uh National Private Hire Taxi Association, the licensed private hire car association. That uh without wanting to, I mean I I'm not trying to uh to push my case here, but the this industry's been very good to me, and you have to I want it to continue. So sometimes you have to give of your time and energy. Yeah, um, I I write for most of the trade magazines, I speak at most of the trade conferences, I engage with the um but it it's um mine is uh I I've experienced, I mean, I act for the unions as well. Yeah, um, and I've experienced both sides. Um I'm a I'm a humanist by nature, so although I you know we're we we're in business to make money, yeah, I don't want anybody to suffer on my back. So I'm interested in the good working environment for the drivers, and I'm interested. But I also think with these things, in order for drivers uh to have a good life, a company must be well run, and they are entitled to make a profit as well. So if you can create a win-win, yeah, I think the only the only bogeyman in all this is uh the behaviour of the government, and that depends on, you know, they only have four years to get their act together. Yeah, and it starts again. Yeah, and it starts again.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Um, and we haven't always been well serviced. No, you're right, yeah. And we're gonna come on to this later, but you were on the panel for MTD as well, weren't you?

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Um well we uh easy tax actually has the the uh we were the first people ever to submit a digital tax return. Yeah. I mean, that's seven years ago now. I mean it's um they've got on with it. That's that's that's clear. It's seven years later. Well, we always used to say, like, MTD, it's coming. Yeah, it's coming, it's all truly coming, it's nearly here. Nearly here, yeah. Yeah, no, we we we were there early days working with the policymakers, um, and uh we we are are one of a software house that we used that uh which is Thompson Reuters, we're involved with them in the very early days. I mean, now uh obviously MTD's um powering through this year, yeah. But the the concept of digitising, I don't think people get really what what MTD is. And we'll we'll talk for a second about some of the simple answers. Yeah, um, but the idea is that HMRC must be able to see your total journey from the day that you actually put your expenses in through to turning into a tax return or is it will be eventually a set of accounts. I mean, the one coming up in April is just for people that do a tax return under uh uh 50,000. But it it the rest of it will roll out. It's part of the long-term tax simplification program. Is that what they call them? The tax simplification programme. I mean, that's the ide that's the concept behind everything. I've never thought of HMRC and tax simplification as a they don't they don't they don't come together to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

They don't come together too. Like one of our customers, they use so I won't name them, um, but they use the the term cognitive load, uh and that basically means they're a little bit busy. Um and how do you make them less busy? Uh but then they seem to, in one decision, make them less busy, and then the next decision make them busier than they were before. Um so that that's like HMRC for me. You know, what they simplify, they complicate.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Well, remember, HMRC are just a government agency. So if the if the the the goalposts are moved every you know, however many years a new government comes in, new ideas come in. Um but you know, every company has complicated. We're not very good at seeing it through, and there's a big disconnect. Do you know what? I I sit on a few HMRC committees, and I've got to say, most of the time, I don't think I'm being you know unfair, disingenuous, but it's well-meaning people. Yeah, clubs. Yeah, you know, I sit uh uh we've got a committee that I I work with with um uh the the industry associations about the digital platform legislation, and basically what happened is the the HMRC the legislation was written in Europe and then dumped on our door, and HMRC were told to implement it. So it's a bit like you know, somebody gets measured up for suit that you've got to wear. It's never gonna go well, is it?

SPEAKER_00 11:33

No, I don't think me and you would make a good suit swap, to be honest with you. I can put two of you in my suits, I'm sure. Um okay, so just I guess going drilling into one of the sort of key topics, which I think you are um you know, probably uh I'm gonna self-declare you an expert in it, which is self- self-employment in general. So obviously, in our industry's grand transport, you know, self-employment is really key. Um just I'm guessing more of a general question, you know, if you were describing self-employment, you know, how would you actually describe it? What is self-employment in your mind?

SPEAKER_01 12:05

In my mind, or in when I'm sitting in front of an actualist inspector, it's kind of a different okay. Yeah, so uh in the UK, I I I think it's a really important thing to get over. And we this is often how I start when we're speaking to clients, which is you can't decide if you're self-employed, Mr. DSP operator or Mr. Driver, or Mr. Driver. There is a set of guidelines and structures. I mean, there's a there's a tool that the HMRC asks you to use for the SSI, yeah. It it's problematic, but let's let's not go there. But but you can't wake up one morning and decide I am a thing. The idea is that um both legislation, uh definition and the courtroom decide. But in effect, it comes down to I mean, there's there's the four pillars that we talk about. Um, but it's control. It's control. So and and I think I think the best example, the HMRC does say, um, if you have someone coming in to paint your room, if you just say to them, I want the room blue and go away again, and that person paints the blue, don't tell them how to do it, don't well then, and you don't tell them when and how, just give them a deadline. That's a self-employed person. If you come in and say, These are the brushes you're going to use, this is the wall you're going to start on, you start at nine, you end at five, and I'm I'm this is how I want you to paint, or you have to train them to do it. Yeah, that's a uh it edges you closer to yeah, that's something like that the I mean we we now have self-employed worker status and employed. This podcast is not the place to start going into the details of it. I I even bored myself just now. Um but um we look at things like um I mean my favourite one is moo because it just gives me the opportunity to say the word moo, yeah, mutuality obligation, yeah, which is mutuality of obligation, and that um I mean even the way that tribunals and courts work, there is a fashion. So at the moment, control is the is the big thing, but mutuality of obligation simply means you've got to come to work, you've got to be given work. Yeah, that's what an employee does. Yeah, uh the right to refuse work is what self-employed people do. Yeah, um uh if you look at I mean, there's a big thing about the right to substitute. Yeah, it's not great for our industry to look at it, you know, but it is one of those things which is if I ask you to come and mend my toilet, it doesn't matter whether it's Dan or Bill or Chloe or anybody that comes in to do the toilet. Um, once you've contracted with that person, anybody can mend your toilet.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

I'd like to see Chloe mend a toilet, to be honest. If you think that'd be a fiasco bang to happen.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

I genuinely believe she can do it.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

No, I believe she could do it, but I mean how many times would she eat wrong?

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Umbody wants to put their hands down a toilet, really, do they? No. Um but that yeah, so the idea it's funny, actually. I don't know why I always end up with plumbing.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

I that you know I think plumbers are like quintessential sort of self-employment, aren't they, plumber?

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Well, one of the biggest cases Yeah, Pimnico. Yeah, Pimnico was actually didn't turn out, it didn't quite turn out that way. But um, yeah, you but you know, this is the idea is that a self-employed person, uh, if you phone them, if you contract with them to do a job, anyone can turn up to it. That's the right to substitute. And listen, in private hire, there used to be this whole thing, well, if you're in a circuit and driver A, you know, if Bob turns up and then Bob can't do it, well, the next person down the line can do it. And it was, but you know, it's so funny because with all of these things, control, supervision, direction, and control, which is the uh how it's seen, the financial uh risk and reward, which is basically if you are taking a financial risk. Good example in private hire, turn up to a job, person's not there. Yeah, do you get paid or don't you? If you don't get paid, then you are definitely self-impulled because you're sharing the risk. Once again, there's always exceptions to the rules.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Buying your own tools and equipment as well sort of falls into that financial risk category, doesn't it? So if you're a van driver that buys their own van, um, or you're a construction worker that buys their own tools, you know, that's almost part of your business cost centre at that point, isn't it? Oh, um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

You've just you've just taken one of the most complicated argument cases and then brought it in as an example. Thanks, Dan. Um we don't need to go in the ins and outs of it. Uh we're gonna do this. Sorry. I I'm gonna make you suffer. Yeah. Um the legal precedent, and let's be clear, courts produce precedent, tribunals produce uh simple word uh tribunals produce a judgment that can be quoted elsewhere. Yeah, case law basically. You might sort it's it's not case, not case law, but yeah. So so um there isn't a great deal supporting that the purchase of your own um uh equipment makes yourself employed, but I always call it the bricks in the wall of protection. So being fat registered or or or um buying your equipment is another strong argument in the case because we're going back to the fact that it's it's not it's subjective. Um, I you know it it's not always straightforward, you know. Self-employment can be questioned. Some of the things there are some legal definitions, and of course, every time there's another tribunal or court case, those goalposts move a little bit. Yeah. Um, but there are some things you can do to protect yourself and um plant and machine, you know, buy your own plant and then buy your own tools um and that registration, stuff like that is a good sign, it is a is a is a good brick in the wall to protect yourself. And uh, you know, I have to be careful.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

I I promise you, we'll talk and some solicitor will go on the line and say, yeah. Yeah, well, I think it's important, Gary, actually. Obviously, all this is opinion and guidance, right? It's not you know, don't don't do exactly this, you know. It's not what we're uh not what we're saying, but I think the reason I like the tools argument is because obviously if you've got an employee, they come to work, they don't pay for their own laptops or their own equipment, you know, it's provided as part of the role, and obviously if you're self-employed, you don't get that. And that for me it feels like a very logical argument, whether it's seen that way or not, obviously depends on the day.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Um, yeah, logic doesn't always have a great place in my life when it comes to these sorts of things. Uh I I I tell you one of the things that is a self-employed person should be already capable of doing the job. Yes, yeah, no, tip on so having the right tools shows um, you know, uh, and here's one for you main contractors, you know, train oh did I just keep saying you know a couple of times. I'm sorry about that, that's very ungary. If you are a main contractor, HMRC would not expect you to be training the people that you engage with if they're truly self-employed. I mean, once again, as you say, this is all opinion. All of these are immovable feats in any given inquiry. Of course, yeah. You never quite know where it's going to come from. Yeah, but this is what I do, this is what we do with the status audits, is we give you a model that reflects all of the I'm not pitching by the way, I'm just trying to set a all of the advice we give gives you a model that we know reflects the working practices, which then go on to create a contract on on how the modern judgments, tribunals, views, and inquiry work that we do has set a simple standard.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Yeah, it never hurts. You you you use the bricks in the wall analogy. Uh, we always use you. Remember our uh old friend Jeremy, uh, we always use the Cesaw analogy. So you're trying to put as many bags on the side of self-employment as you can, and as long as your scale is sort of leading towards self-employment, then you probably are. Um, but you've always got the risk that you know, and I was chatting about this actually last week with someone about a separate topic around an inspector um coming in and and their view um can be different to the next inspector's view, and that's always the risk, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:13

So the one the one joy in life is every time you think you know what you're doing, um, someone else, and and I'm I'm in, you know, I'm in this at the moment. Every we have some inquiries that I'm dealing with at the moment, and every time we think, aha, well, there's the answer, and um yeah, uh it's uh it's not that yeah, it's not. Yeah, someone else views it slightly differently. I mean, just out of interest, uh it's very rare for HMRC, I know someone's gonna call me out on this, but it's very rare for HMRC to knock at your door and say you are being inspected status. It always starts with another journey. So we're coming to do a general inquiry, yeah, section 19. Well, you don't need to know the dealer. You know, it's it starts with a general inquiry. Well, what do you do? And and how do you and by the way, when the HMRC chooses to engage with you, I have a very simple here's a bit of advice for I can give this as advice. Yeah, don't let the HMRC be a thorn in your side, um, you be a thorn in their side. So the worst thing you can ever do, and I'm talking as an accountant, as a consultant, as somebody that fights these battles is you you bring it bring it to them. So I have people saying, Oh, the HMRC wants somebody wants to speak to us, yeah. Um, and and uh I've been ignoring the letters. And no, no, you get well represented and and answer the questions. You know, it you ignoring these things and trying to avoid them doesn't help you. Having a good structure in place and knowing what you're going to say. Yeah. I mean, I always always say to clients as well, though, it the same advice I give to my clients as my teachers gave to me when I did my O levels 322 years ago, um, which is you know, only answer the question that you're asked.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. That. I mean, we always say to clients, if you get a HMRC, a letter from HMRC, you get an inquiry, send it to us first. You know, we're not going to give you you're always free to go and get your own advice, right? But the amount of times that they won't do that, they'll go, I've just replied. And then they reply, and there's loads of stuff on there. You don't even need to say half of that, uh, but I think people get themselves into a panic right.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Well, th they they either ignore it, yeah, and then I mean, you know, there are some there's a few basics. I mean, uh, yes, absolutely, you have to be represented. And if your accountant has the insurance, it's you know, it's well worth doing. But the simple fact is if you have your model in place first, then you don't go down there. But every as I was going to say before, every um inquiry normally starts with a general inquiry, or it could be a VAT inquiry, or it could be uh very often it's a VAT inquiry leads to a payroll inquiry, leads to a status inquiry. Okay, so you can't they're not going to knock on your door and say how do you engage with the drivers. I mean they might do in the near future, but generally it's uh inspectors will have some points within your makeup as a company when they learn about you that will will give them a little flashing light.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Um I love the way I did the flashing light thing, and we're on a podcast where no one can see us apart from they choose to look on the camera. Yeah, flashing light, yeah. Get the get the hand gesture, as well. Yeah, flashing light. The little flashing light um that that says, ah, you know, you're engaging with self-employed workers, I'm going to refer this to our status people. But once again, um, you know, it's the same thing as well with they don't smash down your door. I mean, unless you've been super naughty. Yeah, but they're they're different people. But they don't smash down your door. Um, and there's no obligation to meet with them. I think that's always the one that I'm I'm surprised about. Um, I often have meetings with HMRC because obviously we know what we're doing, but there's no obligation. Um accountants, a lot of accountants are um competent, but by nature not good. You know, they're not even it's not it's not a uh an episode of suits, they're not experts on representing people's interests. So the best closer of New York, like Harvey Spectre. Exactly. So uh yeah, they're not not necessarily going to be good, but they're great at answering a letter. And and um I think it's I mean, it's it is about knowing your rights. You know, there is a tax charter. There are they had the HMRC are obligated to maintain that, so you just need to to know what you're doing. But um uh yeah, it a a status audit never comes, status inspection sorry never comes through as a state inspection, it always comes.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

That is really interesting. So, so basically, you know, it's almost a bit of a bit of guidance or advice as as you've sort of badged it there, is I guess if you do get any sort of HMRC inquiry um to make sure that you've got your answers and you answer only that particular topic they're talking about, and you don't open the door up to extra inquiries. Even if you're doing everything right, you just don't want the admin right of answering all the questions for inquiries.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

I think I I see this all the time. I say to a client, um, please only answer the questions. You know, there's nothing wrong with please only answer the questions they're being asked. Um, and by the way, the HMRC don't mind that because they'll answer the question for a reason. What they don't want is to say, How many somethings have you got? And instead of going five, you go, eight years ago, we decided to uh my wife and I were in Mallorca and we're supposed to buy a hat, and you think, you know, it's amazing that you you go on a journey with them and you look at people, and it it isn't about it isn't about saying something wrong as well. I mean, sometimes it is about saying something stupid, which the number of times I've seen clients, even very intelligent people, answering the wrong question in the wrong way because it was in their head. Yeah, of course. Um, but it's also about the it I think the old style of accountants uh sometimes used to say like give the HMRC chaos. Yeah. And actually, I think it's a naive thing to do because we're living in a world of data, data-driven investing a lot in automation, aren't they? So actually, transparency is your protection nowadays, yeah. Knowing why you're doing something, the reasons behind it, being able to defend it. If you give them chaos, they they can pick it, unpick it with with the their digital behaviour quite easily. Yeah, and I think that's um you know, it's no good just lots of bank accounts and lots of trading, lots of this and that. It doesn't confusion doesn't help nowadays, it actually does.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Okay, that is interesting. And then just on status and let's go into a status inquiry specifically. So you do get to the point where you're having a status inquiry. What are the HMRC looking for or looking at? What's the first things they'll come in? So I'm sitting down today, Gary, I'm doing an inquiry on you and your company from a status perspective. What are they looking at?

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Um well they're looking at control mechanisms, uh, and that's quite subjective. Um, and this is why it's always exciting being on the other end because sometimes you you can't presume what they're going to look at. But that all it always starts with them asking you about your business and getting an understanding of how you trade, and very often they can even get the wrong end of the stick as well. So I'm not saying that it's interesting, really, because I'm not saying to be careful or not be careful, but you're better off just to explain a lot of advisors um don't understand some of the nuances of principal and agent.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Um, and principal and agent is not a simply defined thing because you have that principle. Um you know, you have principal uh uh agent and principal um from a tax perspective, agent and principal from a legal perspective. I mean, this is this is all this confusion in the private hour industry about the the with the VAT in London that's got is a judgment that was picked up as a tax judgment that was never meant to be that. We don't have time for that now, that needs a whole podcast on its side. But it's important to um define some of the terms, but they will always start off by asking you about what your business does. Yeah, so it doesn't hurt to be able to give a concise and also the one thing is no company ever works if it does the same thing, if his job is to take a parcel or person from A to B, the way they do it, the methodology behind it, how they engage with their workforce is very different. So that's the important thing is they won't come in, they're looking for those um uh the you know, the four pillars, they're looking for uh the control elements where the people are being supervised, directed, control. Yeah, but that's a broad very broad definition. Um, mutuality of obligation is another thing, and it's always the thing that you're not expecting. Private hire companies use dispatch software. Yeah, dispatch software. If you refused a job, um the dispatch on period used to go penalty, put you in a SIM box. That's obviously straight away against mutuality obligation, right? Yeah, because the right well, it comes, yeah, it comes down to the right to refuse work. Um, it took me ages, and I'm not saying not all of them guilty, some of them are great, but it took me ages explaining to them just to change the term from penalty, which um some people were using it. If a driver um refused a job, there was just an admin break. I mean, technology's catching up with itself, but there was an admin break, so just note it as that um to allow to that that job to be moved to someone else. Then it's not a penalty for the driver, it was just allowing them to fit back in that queue to get it.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Yeah, so we we see it all the time. I mean, it's uh and it is tricky for for the operators, the DSPs, you know, when they are trying to plan their workforce almost and know who's going to be available and what. But you know, one of the real grey areas for us is like scheduling drivers and getting them to commit to work in an advance, yeah. Uh, and then how soon or how close to the job can they say they're not available? And really the true answer is they could do it, you know, five minutes before they're due to start. Um, but operationally, that obviously is really difficult to manage.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

So but the other thing you've got to remember is when you're sitting in a courtroom, if somebody is self-employed but the client wants them to work to a certain thing, anybody can sign up to do anything for client. If you if the the DSP or I can know, let's talk about private high operators really because it's a broader term. Um, if an operator has a client that needs a particular thing done at a particular time, like school runs or whatever it is, well then that's what the contract is. Of course. So you they're not controlling the client, they're not controlling the driver, they're merely introducing a client that has a fixed expectation. Yeah, so it's really it's just important to dig down into these things and understand. HMRC are looking for you know the substitution and and the um control mechanisms. Um, is the driver behaving like a self-employed? Are they uh under that form of control? Yeah, you know, that that's the thing. But as I say, the questioning when when you first start an inquiry, it's really about tell us about your business. Yeah, and it's quite important to actually have a concise idea of good answer, what your does, but also and to be fair, the HMRC can pick up on something, oh well, tell us more about that. You don't know what they're gonna say, do you don't know what they're gonna say or what's behind it, and you could have a nice person or a nasty person because we're all human. So the the uh the the point I'm making is is to be prepared. You cannot carpet that journey, you can't make it a wonderful experience, but you just have to be very clear in your defence um as to why, and there's you know, courts aren't kind to us at the moment. Nothing, nothing um obviously that they're looking at your that your working practices match your contract, that's the modern pilots, it's massive. Um, I always used to say, like 15 years ago, if your contract says at the time that we interacted you had to wear a big big blue hat, you've got to go and buy yourself a hat, mate. That's the that's the answer. Whereas now the courts will say, as happened in the Uber case, that the contract is not fit for purpose. And if the contract that the the courts will not rely on the contract to the same extent, so they'll look at what your working practice are. Yep. So guess what? You better, it's important, you better be able to present your working practices or know what they are in terms of the court.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Yes, but I'm smiling because you know for bait and what we say, you know, we say to customers, of course, having a contract's really important because that will be one of the first things that does get looked at. But if it doesn't match your working practices, then you might as well not bother. Yeah. Um so having those two things, I think what sometimes we see is people go, well, just put it in the contract. And we go, Well, does that happen? No. Well, don't just put it in the contract then um because it will just get unraveled really quickly. Um so what we try and say to people is get your contract to match your working practices as best you can, and then you've got a better position to work.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

I spend a huge amount of time working with solicitors, and it's not their fault, but you know, um I uh I'm a translator to I I do a lot of sort of project management of legal legal teams, I suppose. And very often it's I'm there to translate what actually happens to a a uh um a a legal terminology that everybody can understand.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Yeah, I love legal, le love legal ling limbo. Limbo linga. Um so I love legal legal limbo as well, actually. It's great that's exactly it's um just the suit gets in the way.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

But don't get people tell them like listen, the the are we have an unwritten constitution in this country, but the the things change all the time. And I always this is what I always say to people as well you know, we create legislation, but the the legislation in this country is often defined by conflict in a courtroom, which then sets what the definite definition is, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

And and so it just means that yeah, nothing's straightforward. It's not like you mentioned the Plumiko Plumers case. I mean, when did that happen? Was it in the 80s? Oh please, I'm terrible on timing.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

It was a long time ago, yeah, it was a long time ago. Yeah, but that's been bypassed. There's there's cases out there all the time, and and listen, um we're talking we're talking a little bit about private hire, you know, all the big ride hallers have been put through the ringer. Do you know I know I know it gives some people pleasure to see the big guys being taken into a courtroom, but it it doesn't do us didn't do anyone any good. And unless there's some clear definition. Because I'm worried about you know, here's a great example that the the piece of that the the this the Sefton case, which was a follow-up from Uber case about VAT. Um they've now the court case has come to a conclusion where it says um uh they recognise VAT in London within the TFL Transport for London and they don't recognise it outside. Yeah, that's basically came out of the last budget. Doesn't make any sense because you're not supposed to have two-tier taxation. There's you're not the the HMRC, the government is not supposed to create competitive disadvantage. Um, and the other thing is that they the the the government during the um budget went, oh we're we're making it fair for the black cab drivers as well by bringing the ride hailers to VAT, so we're going to make VAT um for everyone. There's 1,300 smaller private hire entities in London, mini-cab firms that have our traditional agents that could potentially be wiped out by having to put that on fares when they are genuinely agents. The whole thing, I mean, I'm sorry, some people listening to this might know what's happening, but I'm just saying that it does nothing makes any sense anymore. And I we're constantly fighting.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

People just want to earn a living. Yeah, no, no, yeah, it's a shame, isn't it? Really? It's a shame. But you said, yeah, there is people get, I think, a bit of sick pleasure when they see, you know, in our world, it's the it's the Amazons and stuff of the world that you know people sort of like to see feel the pain, um, but often their pain ends up being everyone else's pain.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

It's just exactly the same thing, and it's the small, you know, I I'm fighting on quite a few fronts for a lot of smaller operators that have got drivers that have been driving them for years, they're good to their drivers, drivers are good to them, and all of a sudden they've been basically the backsplash from all this big media-filling stuff is not good.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

No, it's not good, no. It's a bad taste. So, just quickly back to inquiries and then we will we we will move on. So, we like this podcast had real practical tips on it. So, regardless of where you are at the moment, HMRC might not be in your life at all, which is a great thing, uh, apart from obviously paying your taxes. Um, if you were giving someone one sort of piece of practical advice as to what they should be doing in almost preparation for ever getting an inquiry, what would that be? Would it be make sure you've got a good contract in place, make sure you know your your business and you've got a story ready. If you do get an inquiry, what would your biggest piece of advice be?

SPEAKER_01 36:52

The single biggest piece of advice is actually to understand your model because you're gonna have to, I mean, obviously have a contract, yeah, but as you said, if your contract doesn't reflect you need to understand how your business works, and unfortunately, sometimes you need a bit of help doing that, but have the conversation with your accountant before the letter comes in from the HRC. Understand, I mean, you know, we're going to talk about MTD in a little bit. Um, um, MTD will help you understand the money coming in, the money going out, um, um, where VAT sits, where your relationship with the driver sits. Don't ignore it and hope it's going to be fine, or don't write a contract, as you say, without it reflecting the business. Take the time to understand your model and you will be okay. You've got to do the groundwork, it's just as important as anything else.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

Yeah, that is really great advice now. I and I agree. And I think very similar to what we say to our customers, you know, being being prepared is better than being unprepared, of course. Uh so it makes makes perfect sense. And we've sort of segued really nicely there, Gary. So you mentioned making tax digital there, which again is a another hot topic. And as we mentioned, you were on the panel for it, an easy taxi to first NTD return. So just very simply, and you know, as as as few sentences as we can, because it's not the most um enthralling of topics, but what is MTD?

SPEAKER_01 38:21

All right, making tax digital is digitizing the tax system. I mean, let's say what it's really about, is so that HMRC can drill down and see your activities all the way through. And it means so I don't think we really, I would hope that most DSPs, most operators, um, if you are not digitized now, you do deserve a slap on the um the wrist because you need to make it your account, you know, make it a journey with your accountant. Um, you should be using software to do what you need to do. And guess what? Don't skimp. It's you pay the money for decent bookkeeper. I'm not pushing me, but pay the money for decent bookkeeper because it's more important than than a lot of things now. Um, it's always fairly low down in people's needs, it's now going to be fairly high up for drivers and and and subcontractors. Um, you cannot just walk into your accountant with a bag of receipts, you're going to have to come involved in the digital journey. Yeah, and you know what? Um, first things first, and I always promoted, I would say, my business. You're a sole trader. If you want to use your own personal bank account, it's up to you. It's not a great fit, but I'm not going to force you. I'm now saying to people you need to have a separate bank account for running your business. Yeah. Um by the way, there is no I don't know if I'm being um controversial here. There is no obligation to actually have a business bank account. You can actually, as a sole trader, you can choose to have a personal account.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

Oh, to set up a new personal account and keep it separate.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

Yeah, because I'm not I'm not here to get put money in the bank's pocket. Yeah. Um, although I seem to do that a lot. Um have a separate bank account. Yeah because you need and I I I'm going back to what I said before about transparency. Your bank account, you can attach a very simple piece of software, speak to accounts, and things like um Xero or Sage or Easy Taxes up, no, uh other other software and data capture um software does apply. But a simplistic way of scraping your data, yeah. You don't need to know anything about technology, you've just got to accept that you've now got to do four tax well, one tax return in four parts a year. Yeah, so it means that you can't wait till once um your accountant is going to do quarterly returns for you, yeah, which means the HMRC. Now there is a way for the HMS for an accountant to do a at the moment to do an estimated return.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Yeah, and then they do a correction basically at the end.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

Come on, guys, you know Getting right from the start. Yeah, we're all big boys, it's time to put your big boy pants on and uh basically a piece of software to scrape your bank account, keep your seats, photograph them. You know, just can I just from our journey, we don't even uh we use software for a lot of clients, but we've actually got our own software. You photograph it in WhatsApp, yeah, and then just it uploads into it. Everybody has these systems.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Yeah, I mean our obviously our app for the drivers from the beaming perspective, you know, all their income goes in, they can photograph everything. But the one thing that we don't say, which I think is really good advice, is you know, they should set up a business bank account. Because I'd imagine most of our drivers separate doesn't have to be such a sorrow. Uh but a separate bank account, because I know for a pretty much a fact that most of them would be just using their personal account and then it gets messy, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Well, and and if we go back to what I said earlier, um messy doesn't help anymore. This idea that if my life is confusing enough, the HMRC goes no no no no no. It's now transparency is your protection because it needs to be, because they're not going to go after simple, they're gonna go after complicated.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Complicated where the tax is normally not being paid, right? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

So um MTD basically means there's going to be quarterly returns, you need to make sure that your photograph on your seat so you have a simple way to capture that information, a simple way to capture it, and every accountant is getting ready for MTD. Um, it's coming in April with the the simple tax returns under 50,000, but it's going to roll out year by year. So you might as well get it, 20,000, right? You might as well get it right now. You don't need to be a computer expert, you just need to plug into the systems. Every accountant uses slightly different software, there's different ways of doing it. Beaming does it really well. Um, you know, it's it's it's simple, simple stuff. Just do it though, and don't talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Yeah, of course, yeah. No, no, it's uh it's a good point. And then I think the the uh obviously they've moved the date a few times, but I think it's pretty certain now that it is gonna start properly this year and then obviously a few times.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

I mean, they they just weren't ready to be honest. I mean, I'm sure they won't even mind me saying that. They were it was uh uh it was kind of wonderful and optimistic of them thinking that they're gonna do it, but it just didn't work out that way. It's it's here now. I mean it's coming, it's not gonna change. No. Um I don't think it will this time.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Well, the technology's here to handle it. Yeah, true. Yeah, I think the rest of the industry's sort of caught up now, haven't they? Yeah. And how do how long, Gary? This is more of an this is a complete opinion now, but obviously moving to quarterly estimates, how long do you think it will be before people are paying the tax quarterly? Feels like they'll go in that direction. Uh but obviously this is complete opinion at this point. Um but two years. You reckon two years? Yeah, I don't think there's any messing around. I d I don't see why they wouldn't do it on a quarterly basis. Do you know what? If I was a with you on what you're gonna say, I would pa I'd pay it quarterly as well.

SPEAKER_01 43:58

I was gonna say, yeah, I I was a drawer. Well, you know, when I was first training, I was out, I know what it's like, you know, fighting a drunk on a Saturday night. Um obviously only in self-defence. Uh yeah, I'd do it because I can't I uh do you know people think because you're um you know they say cobblers children never have shoes, right? Um there's a uh by the way, that's not a true statement, and I wish will to cobblers everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

But um and it is popular. That is not a sentence I expected to hear today. Well, I wish cobblers everywhere. What do you say? Goodwill, goodwill to cobblers.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Yeah, good goodwill to all cobblers. And and let's face it, there's there's been quite a lot of cobblers in this in this podcast. But um I run a business, um, and and and you know, uh the last person to remember, you know, our we do all our clients' work and then we rush around to try to get our own work done. Um I will take on any payment structure that will help. If I was a driver now, I would want to pay quarterly. It's no, you know, you can't.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

You're right. Well, we well, we sit all the time. I mean, look, bless the bless the drivers. You know, we've made a big part of our business is obviously supporting the drivers, but understanding tax, you know, isn't easy. Uh and understanding, you know, what to keep back from a tax perspective, unless you're really hot on your numbers, you know, it can be quite complicated. And that's where, as you said, software and stuff makes a difference. But I'd sooner have the money. I mean, I was self-employed for a number of years, and we used to put the money into a separate account within our bank account, and then we knew that that tax was due to be paid. We never used it, we just kept it to the side and and paid it.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

You know, I I do my consultancy work. I mean, I might I might be oversharing here, but you know, I have a business, but I also do consultancy work through a little separate company because something's not not um practical for easy tax. Um, I I charge for that and I put it in a separate account. Boring, I know. It's not my money. Yeah, of course, yeah. It's not you want to. I'm not judging anybody, but it's not my money. I put it in a separate account and pay them the VAT, and then I don't think about it, and I also put some money away for tax. And sometimes if I'm a good boy, if I'm a bad boy actually and overspend on my expenses, sometimes I get a bit of money back at the end. It means that you know, you you these having these habits can't hurt.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

No, and I think you know that's a good part. I mean, I again, um, and we're not. I mean I'm def I'm from I'm far away from an accountant, but whenever I'm talking to you. Yeah, sure, you are close, yeah, yeah. Um, but whenever I'm talking to a new prospective customer and we get into the conversation around that, when I hear the words using VAT for cash flow, it just sends all the alarm bells start going, I'm like, this business isn't sustainable if they're having to use that for cash flow. I get it can happen maybe once in a blue moon, but if you're regularly using that for cash flow, then was that your segue into Gigsi? It's a good segue into Gigsi. Fantastic segue into Giggs. Thanks very much. I don't know if we went to do that. Uh no, I didn't actually. We're gonna come back to Gigsi. Two more questions.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Um let me just fit, let me just finish on that. Just sorry, let me just i expand on that a little bit. Nobody wants to hear it, but that is not your money. If you can just build it into your brain that it's not your profit of your business and it's not yours, that's not me being Mr. Who Ha, I'm on the HMRC side. That's me saying, being just be real about your business. Yeah. You know, and and that's where true profit lies in going, it's not mine, it wasn't mine. It comes back to the same thing, you know. Um, I mean, we started off by saying that I don't sound like an accountant, I probably have today, but one of the things that I often do with my clients is saying, look, nice to meet you. Uh I know we're going to talk about the numbers, but let's talk about a business, some of the good behaviour, and exactly relating to that. You know, don't take more out than you need to. You don't spend money on stuff that you don't need to. Delay your gratification until you've hit that point. You you don't deserve you. I know you you you're having a bad day and you think you need a watch, but you don't always need that. It comes down to a mindset. Your business is your baby that will will grow and and look after you in your old age, don't do it harm. That was quite impassioned, wasn't it? It's very impassionate, actually. Yeah. But it's your business is your baby. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Well, it's funny because the first thing you learn when you start to grow is don't treat your business like your baby because it's you've got to make hard decisions. But that the that when you start the business, if you look after it, oh you know, it's a cliche. But just do some good practice and it will look after you. Yeah, and and I'm really keen when I work with with clients, you've got to look at the bigger picture. Anyway, I've just I'm gonna step off my I've got a little soapbox here, I'm stepping off it now.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

Well, I was about I was about to ask you, and I think you've already sort of answered it really. Because I was gonna say, you know, what does you know, you you you know what I'm gonna ask, don't you? That's the truth. Uh, but what does good look like and and what does bad look like? But I think you've sort of answered good, really. Um in your sort of soapbox sort of episode. I this is what good looks like.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

I don't care how painful it is, transparency and understanding of what you're doing and how you're doing is everything. Do not fool yourself. Good looks like um and it's really hard. If your job is to sell cabbages, you want to be selling cabbages, taking the time to do the book work or engaging somebody else to do your bookwork. Financial, you uh you don't it's nice to be financially financially literate, you don't have to be financially literate, you just have to be ordered. Yeah, uh people put book work, um you know, digit even digital bookwork low on their list. The most important thing is to know what you're doing, know how you're doing it, to be able to plan and understand where you are. So good looks like uh using software, engaging with your accountant. And by the way, if your accountant doesn't hold your hand, get a new one. Yeah, right. Your accountant is not there, and by the way, I'm just as guilty before clients write in. I have clients who don't want to see me and want to see me once a year, throw something at me and go away. Well, that's kind of up to them, and I will still love them as much as I can do. But every accountant loves people that want to work with them. If your accountant doesn't have the attitude of overseeing, and by the way, you also have to pay for the privilege. Yeah, of course. You know, that that comes into it. But good is about transparency, simple practice, recognising the money coming in that you can take and have fun with, and the money coming in that's not yours.

SPEAKER_00 50:40

Yeah, it's interesting actually, because we offer um to uh some of our clients, dependent on criteria, Ts and C supply and all that. Uh we offer a free um six months with an accountancy provider. But when I'm whenever I'm talking to a a new client, which you know isn't as frequent nowadays with that brilliant sales team, uh, but I'll say, look, use the free accountancy service, get it all set up, get your bookkeeping set up, they'll set you upon like zero and all that sort of stuff. Great. But then my sort of personal advice, and it is just personal um opinion almost, is get a local accountant, get someone you can go in, have a cup of tea with, and actually sit down with once a once a month, once a quarter, because that's where you'll get into the weeds of your business uh and actually understand the ins and outs.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

I've sat in front of potential clients that will come to the practice and gone, you really don't want me. You're at a stage I actually went to see someone a while ago and I thought maybe I'm letting um yeah, once again, I think I'm oversharing. I thought not some oversharing, yes. I thought they were kind of very powerful going somewhere. I think they made uh they they they ran their trade well, yeah, but it was basically just like a load of uncles in a room going, um this is you know, this is what we're doing and everything else. And I looked at them and they said, We've come to you as our saviour. And I sort of turned around to them and went, I'm not your guy. You need somebody to sit in first of all, uh I am the guy to tell people to just behave themselves because I'm all shy about that. And I think sometimes accountants I I like to be honest with the clients, even though they hate me for it. I mean, not all of them, but some um, but but the truth hurts, you know, that that a good friend is the one that tells you the unvarnished truth, not what you think you want to hear. Yeah, and I've sat in front of a client and gone, you need somebody to sit on your lap and just take you on the journey because you're not gonna get there, you know. Even having teams meeting with me every even if it's every month, where we um although no one can afford a teams meeting with me every month. No, you get the little idea. Um, but even if you're you're you're doing that, you actually need somebody that's going to or do you know what take on if you're big enough, take on an internal financial person. Yeah, because you're just not gonna do it any other way.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

No, I mean we start when we started, um, we had it was all external. Obviously, Gary, you were involved at the start of the city. Because you're accountant, but you're the accountant. Um we moved to another accountant, no names to be mentioned. Um, but we've got like five or six people now in our final scene because the business warrants having people that are looking at certain sections of the business. I don't think once again, we're not talking out of school.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

Uh um when when we first got together, you were startup, and I set you up and put you in the right direction and went, Well, uh, I'm not going to sit on your lap anymore, and you need somebody that's got more resources than I have, and off you went.

SPEAKER_00 53:29

It was a it was a you know, there wasn't any um Yeah, I know we spend a lot of time on finance people, and I get chased on a daily basis for receipts and approvals and have to reply to there's a there's a uh a TikTok trend going around about oh, I didn't realise that being senior in a corporate mate, you just send loads of emails we've just approved on. Yeah. But I do send a lot of emails just with the word approved on. Uh see it's good fun, really good fun. Um cards. There you go. Um you don't need it, you know. No, I don't need it, I know exactly what I'm doing. Um all right, Gary, so that's that's brilliant. And accountancy obviously is is important. So you're not really important. It is important, um, but important to every business, right? Whether big or small, getting your books in order.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

The numbers are important, they're horrible, but they're important. Um the model, you know, going back to I repeat myself now, but it's the the model, and that's part uh and if you can't do it, get someone in that can, but don't it you've got to put your hand in your pocket for it.

SPEAKER_00 54:24

Yeah, no, it's a good point. Okay, so last little bit. Um we're on to Chloe's name, this the cheeky plug section. Um so this is the this is the cheeky plug bit of the of the podcast. Okay, Gary. Should she take the cheeky plug out of her hand? Yeah, it's not physical, physical cheeky plug, yeah. Uh yeah, yeah. I didn't understand that. Take it out of the hand. So obviously, Gigsy, Gary, of which you are the cheeky executive. I am, yes. Um, so just quickly, you know, for those listening, we are going to do a follow-up uh podcast to sort of deep dive into Gigsi, but do you want us to give us the the elevator pitch for for Gigsi? You know, what is it? Why do drivers like it and why do operators and DSPs like it? Obviously, we've been trolling it now for a long time. I know frustratingly so.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

Um I think we've part of the troll. No, no, we've I enjoyed the process. Yeah. So simple thing. Gigsy just made sense to me. I'm obviously involved in every part of um uh this industry, um uh mobility and and uh logistics. I we realized that there was um a problematic area, and for me it actually came up because of um main contractor's cash flow, but there's lots of reasons around this. Gigsi gives drivers the ability to draw down money they've already earned early for a fixed fee. Great. I had to think that one through because there was so much relating to it. And it was I remember it started with a conversation with one of my operators who was actually lending the driver's money because he wanted to maintain the drivers. It was I mean, any any private hire drivers out there, January, it's not a great month, is it? Not for anybody. Um, and it was uh that they'd had a few struggling weeks, money had been um uh it was basically the the I always say this, the week was longer than the money. Yeah, and they're lending or or reducing rent, or they were doing all this um for like th two, three days, three, four days. Um, and we realized that there was a facility, especially not mentioning any large ride hailers, but some of people on certain apps had immediate access to money for price. Yeah, um, so what Gigsi does for an operator, your drivers or for DSP, your drivers can access the money within two hours once they're verified, obviously, once they're verified and on the system, yeah. And uh that is funded by Gigsi. Yeah, um, and they pay a fixed fee. Yeah, um, and it's very important to say that because what we don't want to do, this is not like there's no interest involved, it's a single fixed fee. Yeah. And for that fixed fee, the driver receives his money and then Gigsi then receives the money um back doing the normal payment. Um and it's one of those products that if you're not in this game, you wouldn't get it. No. But it drivers we've had a it's that's as complicated as it gets, it's absolutely transparent. Yeah. Um and it's a funded product that that we've put together with a with a what we call a closed funding source. So it's it's us doing it. Um and it means that people can get their money when they want to.

SPEAKER_00 57:59

Yeah. Um it's been really popular with the the the DSPs that we've trialled it with at a driver level. Yeah, really.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

I think uh so I mean we're we're rolling out into to private hire now. Obviously, I'm quite well known in private hire, so um I I I mean there is a story to this because I I was involved with the early stages of of putting it together, but I was only an external consultant. Yeah, and um um we I had a phone call from um the the backers one day. So really good news, we've got a new CEO. I went, that's great. Uh, who is it? And I mean, well, it's it's you but I I think it's because um no one else really had the passion because I get it, yeah, yeah. I I have lots of drivers that I look after for finances, I have lots of operators and we look after all sorts of people, and I got it, and it just is what it is. And the take up's been fantastic, yeah. Um we we actually did we we didn't roll it out too quickly, the the the technology was put together. It's we're now um running with with WISE really well. Yeah, no, it works nicely, yeah, and it just is what it is, really.

SPEAKER_00 59:09

It works, is the is the thing, you know. It does it does what he says on the thing.

SPEAKER_01 59:13

It does what he says on the tin. And and um so we're rolling it out with some some um pretty big um private hire operators as well. Um uh uh am I allowed to mention names or not? So one of our early adopters was Take Me, which is a massive Midlands-based um private hire entity. Uh yeah, good. And um I was do you know what? I was so nearly gonna go into an accent then and suddenly realised that I'm old, so we used to be able to do accents without getting into trouble, and now I'm leaving.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

Oh, look at your Midlands accent. But all the accents, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's alright, it's not too bad. Yeah, I don't sound like that, do I? Um I was about to do my Peaky Blinders thing, but you can can't say it without the swear word in the middle, so I'm not even gonna go there. Yeah, no, no, no, no. Um PJ.

SPEAKER_01 59:56

Yeah, PG. Um but uh we're um uh we're rolling it out with some um some some fairly major people within private hire. Uh and it's very interesting because it's like any productive something somebody hasn't heard about it, it hasn't existed. They're going, well, what's the catch? Yeah. Um, and the the there isn't. It just needed to be there, somebody needed to do it. We did it, it's rolling out, it's great, and and we look forward to working with it. And it uh from a personal point of view, I've always had um involved in other people's businesses as well as an accountant. I've had my own business, I've had other businesses because I have a tiny attention span and I I love this industry, and I get very excited, and people come to me with a project, and before I know it, I'm kind of more involved than I I meant to be, which is um, but I I I mean I I'm not on, let's be absolutely honest, with EasyTax, my team are wonderful. We've we've just merged with another company, um, it we're having a great time with it, but I'm not on the tools anymore. I think it's fair to say there's a six in front of my age. I'm not a spring chicken, so uh, but getting involved you look good for it. I love you. Um getting involved with um uh a rollout like this. I mean it's as they we always say that director it it's it's a startup, but it's not really a startup because we we knew what we're doing, yeah. It's a scale-up, isn't it? Yeah, it's a scale-up, yeah. But I've really enjoyed and and I would say that the COO um I'm working with, yeah, um, who's also with Wise for some time. Yes, I'm my friend Jason. Yeah, and uh you'll meet him also happens to be my son-in-law as well. It helps. Uh helps. Um well do you know it's it's I have other family coming into this, not from nephew, but they're my my family are quite well financially educated, as you as you imagine, um, those that are, and the rest of them all work in the National Health Service was the strangest thing, but there you go. Um so it it I really just enjoyed it and I'm really nice to have a product. I'm out there doing, I mean, I'll see you guys at every exhibition, every yeah everything, but it it's quite exciting just to just to be involved with something, and it just fits in with everything else I do.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:14

So you're you're exactly like me. I mean, we've launched a partnership with um, and I will say their name, with a um a big van sort of leasing and sales company called Van Oase. Um, and before you know it, I know everything about vans, and I'm a part-time van salesman. I just sort of get caught up in the in the excitement of it. Uh, and I never expected to love uh this industry either, but I do find myself now sort of deeply ingrained in it. It's quite infectious, actually.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:42

You know, it pulls you in and you can't get it. I mean, let's face it, we mentioned uh every time I try to escape, it pulls me back in. Um with WISE, I as we said I've had an association with WISE before. We've always been good friends, and I find myself, you know, it's it's not a secret. I'm I'm back engaged with WISE as well, both as a supplier and and we're doing some other projects, which is considering it's public domain and on the internet, the fact that um beaming an easy tax uh um partnering this on uh uh are we talking about that or we're not talking about that? Uh no, I wasn't gonna talk about that today, but yeah, I mean we are partnering obviously on the on the private hard side and you know yeah, we we've got some other I mean it once again everything I do is relating to the benefit of the industry and the financials industry as a whole, but um yeah, it's nice to be back uh working with you guys. I mean, we never really left each other, we no, not really, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:33

We always flirt out of each other, didn't we? Exactly. Yeah, so it's all it's all good for. Yeah, you're not like the Gary Boomerang, basically, in a scroll, and then eventually you're back again.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:41

Do you know? I must say one thing about um um you're reaching a certain age, I've always thought this thing that reputation is really important. You know, we're only human, we all make mistakes. I was about to say something else. We all make mistakes, we can all we can all get it wrong. Um, but if you're if your heart is in the right place and you're doing your best, um you find that every you know let's five year cycle, things land back. If you haven't put bad karma negativity out there, then good things keep coming around.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:13

I completely agree with that. Yeah, I live I sort of live. I never I never fall out with anyone if I can if I can help it, because you never know when you're gonna need each other again.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

I've fallen out with people, but it's an honest fallout. I mean I you know I say the same thing as well. I'm only human. If you make a mistake, own up to it. Yeah. Um I had an argument with somebody the other day, actually, that and and I think just do your best, and but you'll get if you're not real, you will get found out. You just can't be around for as long as I had I I have been without getting found out. I mean, this isn't a segue into um the the what's in the media at the moment about what's coming out, but you you you've you've got to be genuine and real, otherwise it you do find out because you can't be you can't put a false face onto everything all the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:59

No, you can't, you're right. Yeah, it's good. Stay true to who you are, caught a philosophical end to the to the meeting, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:06

Well, if you if you intend to do good by people, then it comes around and and thing the cycle of life will come and pat you on the back.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

I expected this to be a philosophical one, to be honest with you, Gary, with your great wisdom. Now you're just taking the mic. Yeah, no, I am, yeah, you're right. Um right, I think we're we're towards the end there, Gary. I've really enjoyed that as always. I always enjoy our and our chats. And as we sort of said before, we're gonna do a follow-up for for Gigsa, um, where we do a bit of a deep dive into that product and get into the ins and outs of how that works. And uh, we'll put Gary's contact details in the description of the video, uh, and you'll hear more from Gary in the future. But been a pleasure to have you, mate, as always. Absolutely fantastic. Thanks very much indeed. Yeah, cheers, Gary. Thank you. Take care, mate. Thanks.