Episode 8: A sit down with Lee Wilcox - On The Tools: A voice for construction

Dan Richards, Deputy CEO at Wise, is joined by Lee Wilcox, Co-Founder & CEO of On The Tools.

They discuss the origins of On The Tools, the real challenges facing construction today - from recruitment and skills shortages to regulation and red tape - and why mental health remains such a critical issue in the industry. The conversation also explores the lack of support for self-employed contractors, the importance of practical perks, and the power of community in construction.

A must-listen for tradespeople, contractors, and anyone supporting the construction workforce.

For construction companies looking to learn more or contact Lee’s team, visit: https://onthetoolscard.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This country stops when construction stops, right? When your boiler breaks, like trades keep our homes warm and running and all these sorts of things, right? And I'm like, they are a they're the hidden public service, right? But they don't get treated like it ever.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

At the very early days of Covid, they were sort of blaming delivery drivers. And then I think people, because they were so reliant on delivery drivers, almost realise that you know what we need these guys.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Yeah, we do that. When your boiler goes, it is a killer, isn't it? You're like, oh no.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

You realise your house is useless to that crap.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

What now? And you go, I can't do it. And then you're like, what? We're in a world where we need more homes as a country, we need more infrastructure, there's so much of it going on. What you guys have thought is really incredible. Something you should be really proud of. Yeah, and I'd appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

How many um Facebook followers and stuff have you guys got?

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Well, collectively across social channels now that it's like eight and a half million, but it's I think we better record this but keep it as a separate clip.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

We'll do it at the end. And if anyone listening wants to know it, maybe we could. No, I'm not saying anyone can. Welcome to Talking Wise, the podcast for logistics and self-employment and what it takes to scale without the wheels coming off. Today we're joined by Lee Wilcox, the CEO of On the Tools, and I'm your host, Dan Richards. Lee, good to have you, mate. Um, thanks, mate. Um, do you want to kick us off and tell a bit about yourself, on the tools, and what and what you guys do?

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Yeah, okay, yeah. So uh I'm Lee Wilcox, I'm co-founder and CEO on the tools. Um started the business uh what nearly 12 years ago now, which is yeah, I'm a lot fatter and a lot bolder. Yeah. I look at my hair, this one's been like thinning out, man. You need to like turn fears en route, I reckon, at some point. Um I'd go straight back to psychological. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, 12 years, which is um at mind-bending, really. I can't believe it's been that long. But yeah, so we set out the I mean ultimately what we are now is we're a media and insights business, and um the purpose of the business is to improve the lives of every trans person in in the UK. Um but it I guess like every business, it's not always been like that. Um and certainly not always been as purpose focused and as sort of I guess strategic and understanding where we're heading. Um we actually started the idea, me and Ad, the the other co-founder, um just drunk. I might I I didn't check, but I'm alright to swear. I was about to swear then. Oh we have kept it quite PG. Yeah, that's we completely wanted to get the temper on it, you know. Um, yeah, so we we were uh it was a Friday night getting drunk in my mum and dad's garden, and Ad was moaning about the fact he couldn't find a plaster on the job he was on, so he's in the trade. I'm not, I'm just like a nerd who likes technology and stuff, working in a completely different industry. And then I was like, surely there's got to be stuff out there. But but back then you had things like checker trade rated people, that probably not, I mean, checker trade been around for even a bit then, but he was very much like vetted trades person into your home, not B2B contractor, subcontractor, and vice versa type of thing. So uh we just got bladdered and came up with this idea around launching an app that would essentially dead the recruitment in industry within construction. That was like the the original idea, yeah. Because ad was like, you know, use recruiters, we you know, and a lot of them are you know not trustworthy. There's some great ones, and you know, there's still some great ones about now, but like it was one of those industries that's like you anyone could whip up a construction recruitment industry uh business, and you know, or you went through your phone book and that was it, you know. And then after that, and and the the story actually started because he did that night or that day, sorry, he'd had uh he couldn't find anyone, and then the guy who he he had a mate who met someone in the pub who said, I know someone, yeah. And he said the guy turned up and he had all this, he just had like a a trowel and some other bits in a Morrison's bag, yeah. And and they're doing this massive fit out on I think it was a hospital in Mansfield, yeah. Um, and I was on that job for ages, I remember, and and uh he said, like, I just said I said, What did you do with him? And he said, Well, I just said like, have you ever been on site before? And he said, Yeah, and he said, even when he said yeah, I could tell that he was lying. He said, and he was like, Are you sure? He said, and he was like, Well, like, I've done a few bits, and he was like, Listen, just go to like the ninth floor or something and just look busy, and if anyone turns up, just like scurry away or whatever. Basically, he needed someone to count his head and I was like just baffled that that could be a way of legitimising someone working, not a criticism of ad necessarily, although you know it was pretty rogue, but like I kind of understood it, but was like as if that is happening, yeah. You know, if that's happening with ad, it's happening everywhere, everywhere, yeah. So we just came up with this idea to connect people, that was it, and that's where the whole lot of uh our our tagline as a business is connecting instruction. I'm actually toying with that at the minute a lot of whether that is still our tagline or not, you know, when you sort of get heavy in brand and and all those things, but so that's what we did. We had no money. I'd I was actually just recently divorced. We were talking about this earlier. Nando's um had was broke, we were both broke, right? And so we just got three credit cards between the two of us and spent some money on and and sent it off this app idea off to um a freelancing website, yeah. Um I think it was like Elance, it was called them, but it's now called Upwork. Yeah, I know Upwork, yeah. So uh we did that, and then we were like like what now? So the idea was ad was like, I've got loads of funny videos of people on site, like um we'll just start a Facebook page. Lab Bible was about I don't know, maybe like six months old, nine months old. So it's really like early days of Facebook. Like um what was that?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Uh what was that really short form video platform? Oh um not Vimeo. I know what you're talking about Oh, that's gonna drive me mad.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

That will drive me mad and edit it in afterwards. The really short, really quick. And that blew up and then it disappeared, and Facebook pages started like running video, and that was it. Yeah, and so we were like, I was like, okay, he didn't have loads of videos, about four. Um, but so then we just used YouTube for a couple of weeks and was like, okay, and just reposting other people's content. And we were like, we just need to get 100,000 people following this Facebook page, the app will be done in a year, six months, a year, whatever. Uh, we'll launch the app, done, and then someone will buy our business and we will be rich, and that will be it. That's always that was the business. That was always the plan. Yeah, and then after a couple of months, we had 250,000 followers, after about a year we had a million, and we just landed on this thing where there was a load of people in an industry that didn't really exist digitally together, like they weren't anywhere. Yeah, but we were making no money, like no uh one of the guys, uh Andy, who was he was in the business one of the show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh he always said, likes don't pay the bills, yeah. And he and he was so right, they bloody didn't, you know. And and so we just spent the first couple of years bouncing around, we were selling on the tools merch, we were, you know, doing loads of different things, just trying to make a book, you know, um and in the meantime waiting for the app to come back, and then we got it back, it didn't work, and it was just we had to rebuild it in the UK. And then once we'd done that, we're like three years in, and uh and then we're like, this is a crap idea, like we're gonna need Uber style money to roll this thing out, we're gonna need like we're gonna have to go city by city because the audience has now spread so wide, organically, we're gonna get someone download it in Aberdeen, someone download it in Devon, the two won't ever meet, and this app is crap, right? So we just parked it, and then we'd noticed that the other, you know, your lab Bible was all publishers that started sort of essentially doing branded content, and we were like, you know, just me and Ad at this point. So Andy had just come on board and we were like, don't own a camera, you know. We can do this, yeah. Um and so we did. We just blagged our way into uh into reality and got a few deals with some construction brands and did a few free videos and all that, and then suddenly we'd we'd six months later we'd sign three league, uh committed to about 70 videos, and we had us three, no cameras, no members of staff. So we were like, right, we just became this media business. It's a man. And then over time, what we've realized in doing that, in talking to the trade more and engaging with them more because that became the game, is that they're just underserved and not looked after. They don't get the same perks, privileges, opportunities as the white-collar world, and that's what that's what we want to change. And yeah, ultimately, like you know, we we now campaign, we lobby government, we work with brands to move the needle on things like tool theft and skills and suicide and construction and mental health, and um and we work with brands, you know, our business model is pretty simple. We've got a community, we have a load of partners, and we've got a team that are really passionate and um engaged about the purpose, and we just try and connect those three together. If the community is looked after well enough, then we can engage brands with the right products and services. And if if we get the right partners, the team are happy and they're more filled. And it's that cyclical thing of like essentially trying to give everyone value in that in that regard, give the community value, give the partners value, and give the team value. And you should hopefully be able to grow that circle more and more and more. And yeah, agree, you know, we're now in the world where we want to try and like build our own products and and do different things, but and and I guess make that purpose bit a bit more tangible because sometimes it's a bit hard to understand whether you're actually achieving that and what what's the barometer, like where how are you measuring it, you know. Yeah, uh, to improve the lives of every trans person in the UK, it's like well, probably are, but to what extent, you know, and yeah, so yeah, so um uh mad journey, um still absolutely loving it, which is great. Yeah, um, and yeah, loads, loads come in, loads more loads more to do.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Yeah, I think it's uh interesting because that a couple of bits on this. So firstly, all my friends and a lot of my family are trade. My dad's a plasterer by trade. He's a dad plaster by trade, yeah. He's a teacher now. Um really he teaches at Solyold College. No, yeah. So he teaches like tiling and bricklaying.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Interestingly, like the industry is absolutely crying out for um like tutors in colleges.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, so that's what my dad did because he teached he taught at prison before. No way, uh chat out to my dad. Um he taught out of prison previously, so he was at um Hewell Grange for like 10 years, and but he did was he taught in prison, like in prison, he taught, he taught he wasn't a prisoner in prison. No, no, no, no, no. He taught people that were due to leave prison like within within three months, like basic skills so they could come out and they had a plaster in like as a bit of a trade. Love it. Um so he did that and then he moved to uh Sulliver College. I mean he preferred teaching the prisoners and the kids. They left hassle, they are left hassle. Um so I uh but I knew on the tools as a brand before I met you. Uh right. So when I first met you, I was like four or five years ago. Um I'd watched the videos, I've been sent them, and I was um, but I mean you're a really humble uh guy Lee, but what you guys have built, he's really incredible. So it's something you should be really proud of. Yeah, I know I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 10:54

How many um Facebook followers and stuff have you guys got?

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Well, collectively across social channels now, I think it's like eight and a half million, but it's um obviously, you know, from from our perspective, you you halve that again because it's about I think it's about 55% UK collectively across, I forget, obviously the figures sort of change, but roughly that. Um and then we we already know like boots on the ground is about 1.6 million in the UK. Again, that fluctuates with people leaving the country or changing jobs or whatever it might be. Um and then there's that sort of wider audience of of like white colour within the industry and stuff, but yeah, I mean we yeah, the team has done a a awesome job of engaging pretty much the whole industry.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

I mean, I I'm it's gotta be one of the biggest sort of Facebook groups of this style in the world.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

It's gotta be Yeah, I I I've social followings I'm yet to find something that's that's bigger, that's aimed at construction workers. There's definitely a lot more over the last couple of years, um, which I think is great because I just think there's like we've sort of grown up as a brand, and I guess we've changed and so like maybe what we're starting out as probably doesn't service the people who had started following us originally, and you know, as you do, you brand changes, you get a bit safer, and you realise that I mean some of the videos we posted when we were early on, I'll tell you on after offer it's not for now. I'm telling you now, I can't believe we even did it, it was bizarre. Um, we had the page banned for a week, and I was like, we always joke about what on earth we were thinking, what did we think was gonna happen?

SPEAKER_01 12:25

I think we better record this, but keep it as a separate clip, we'll do it at the end. And if anyone listening wants to know it, maybe we can't.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

I'll have some kind of PR night there on our chance. Um, but yeah, so so I think it it's good, and it shows that I think there's more um eyeballs on construction and and all those things, and I think it also shows that construction um has moved moved on a bit, and uh everyone is treating social as more of an avenue for small businesses to grow and all those different things. Um but yeah, I I think I think Globe, yeah, I think we're the biggest. I I think what I'm probably more proud of or or would certainly try and justify more is more the engagement. It's the like we really pack a punch in terms of um the engagement rates we get across social, and and I think that's really important for the brand and and actually for the probably for the community more more broadly when we're trying to do things that are hopefully going to help them, yeah. That'd be like you know, with this huge thing, and it wasn't just us, there's loads of different people involved, and some shout out to Schwebb, who's the guy who like really like nailed it, but with this huge thing, done it twice now in um Parliament Square, where we've shut Parliament Square down with like 250 trades in vans around tour theft, it's caused a bit of organised carnage, yeah. But just to make a point of lobby government and different things. So there's there's been some wicked things we've been able to do because of the size of the audience and how engaged they are, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Yeah, no, he's really good. I love that, I love that. And I think the other thing I was gonna say is I think your sort of mission resonates and matches ours quite a lot. 100%. We have the we improve self-employment messages, right? And the same thing, really. You know, we saw that um, you know, our the people that we engage with completely underserviced, no benefits, no perks, uh really similar businesses, aren't they? Used and abused in many ways, and you know, we've done a lot over the years to pump stuff in at a driver level to give them a bit back. So I've always thought it was a nice little synergy between us as businesses. So and just one quick word, Lisa, I think it's worthwhile because are you a first fellow villa fan that we've had on the podcast? Uh I'll take any opportunity to talk about my Lord and Saviour, who Nay Emory. One word on him. Uh, what would you say? Doesn't have to be one word, actually. Just how do you feel about him? Oh, I love him. He's saying those are the words that come to my mind.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

I just love him. He's the closest to God to me. Yeah, so I look where we sit at the villa, um, it's right on the halfway and on beyond the um a bit further up, like, but uh it's brilliant watching half the time I get distracted by him watching him because he's like a crab in that box, yeah. Um and he's just always side to side, and it like he's so animated. I love him. He's um he's in a lot for the villa, hasn't he? And got us into a good spot. Love it fairly the word. Very, very frightened of him leaving, leaving.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Yeah, it's really uh I don't remember my dreams, I was chatting out at this earlier, but if I could have a nightmare, it would be you're chatting about the fact you don't remember your dreams. I don't remember my dreams and random. Any often, well, uh basically the reason I was talking about it was I had a nightmare on the weekend and I remembered it. Um and I'm not gonna tell you what the nightmare is, I don't want my missus to know because she will be scared. But if I was I reckon if I remembered my dreams more frequently, Emery leaving us would be one of my recurring nightmares.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Because we'll never be the same.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

No, we won't. No, no, and and it will hit us really, really hard because I think what we've what he's done a really good job, and and look, obviously, there's a big wider team at the villa that have done that are clearly involved in it. But I think Emery's manager style is he kind of runs the club. Yeah, he does. Which I love. Yeah, he is, and and that's why I think we're getting results. And I think we've done a really good job of over the last couple of years of um recruiting uh top talent, and I think uh that is definitely to do with him. Obviously, it's to do with the performance and how the club's being ran and all of those things, and but uh ultimately it's changed since we've had him at the helm, and I think uh especially if he was to leave at the wrong point. So it's like it's different if we win something and he leaves, hero, his hero, he's leaving a legacy, we're not in like a uh you know a most managers don't leave like that, do they? No, they don't. Um so it worries me that he leaves at the wrong point, and then it's like the the positioning of it is is like our villa are a bit screwed now.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Whereas you kind of you want him to leave on a on a hike, and I don't know what that looks like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Like you say, it very it doesn't happen very often at all. Like maybe Ferg is the only one it's ever happened with.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

I am fully prepared to be actually depressed when he leaves. I mean, I cried when Grealish left Villa. Yeah, yeah. Uh and I don't mind admitting that, right? Um but uh and him he leaves, I don't know what I'm gonna be like.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Well, I think I actually think I'm um if he gets past this year, I'm okay. Um there's so many rumours about the summer, isn't there? And this whole United it would it will kill me if he goes to someone else in the Prem. I and and actually what I'm more worried about is that I will turn to hate because if he goes to another Prem Club, I will I think disown him. Yeah, uh whereas if he goes to something there's a load of talk about Madrid and that, yeah. I'm a little bit like it will kill me. But he's outside our mind a little bit, and it's a bit like can he turn that? I don't know. Yeah, depends what we do this season, doesn't it? If we win Europa, amazing, but then it maybe it does the opposite effect. He wins Europa and he's like, you know what, now's the right time. I've done what I can. Never gonna win the Prem with him. No, but surely he believes we can win the Prem.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

I agree, mate. I agree, I agree. Let's move on because I feel like I'm getting a bit more depressed. Think about it. We'll be fine. I think we'll be alright. We'll be alright, yeah. Champions League's as it is, mate. You're right, you're right, up the filler. Um, all right, so uh moving on, you know, obviously we've spoken you you touched a little bit about it there, Lee, and obviously let's not go chapter and and verse, but what do you see the key sort of challenges for construction over the over the coming years? Do you see the I know the same things are always ever present, so thought uh tall theft and things like that, but do you think there's big topics that are heading their way that you know they aren't expecting, or is it the same old old problems that you know we need to get behind? I think it's a bit of a mixture.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

I think you've got like um the age-old problem of finances in general. I think just that just it's really tough out there at the minute. And unfortunately, in um construction you see so many businesses go out of business, and it's not just the impact of that business. So many other people within construction are then not because they don't get their money, and then we know then that has a knock-on effect for ill mental health. We've got the highest suicide rate of any industry, like so you've got those sort of ongoing big problems. I think some of the stuff that's coming up around skills we've got an old workforce ultimately, and they're the ones who really know what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Uh and we need to drive younger people into it so that they still get the ability to be around these people and learn from them. Uh so I think the skills bit is a is a is a problem, probably more industry-wide than it is for the actual trades, although I think it will probably impact everyone. I mean, we're talking about I think making tax digital is is a a real problem for people. I think it I understand what is happening uh uh to a certain extent, uh but I just don't think people are ready for it. There's no education on it. No, and and so I think then you're in a world where you're gonna get hundreds of thousands. I mean what? There's like I think we have the largest prov proportion of SMEs of any industry.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

So definitely the largest amount of subcontractors. Yeah, subcontractors.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Sole trader status or SME, or you know, like as a big old bucket, what you're gonna get half a million people in fines and things like that. You know, I doesn't help attract people to injure. No, it doesn't it frustrates me because I'm like, these guys have got it hard enough. Why on earth do they need another thing that they've now got to go and do like but we have to see how it how it how it rolls out or maybe but uh I think HMRC have got to do a lot of promotion of this because at the moment and they're not doing a lot, they're not doing a lot at all, and like it's there's loads of stuff like this.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

I mean, we've seen it with like rights to work checks, for instance, like the there's legislation that's been passed, but there's absolutely no one talking about it. I think we're one of the only companies that's talking about it, but it's a a £60,000 fine if you get it wrong, yeah. And it could shut up. You shut the construction business down, yeah, definitely, yeah 100%.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Yeah, it's yeah, so I do think that's a problem. I think technology-wise, I don't think you know, I think they're one of the lucky industries uh to work in from like an AI point of view. I think we're a while off the robots being up to build houses and you know, get under your sink or get into your you know, some awkward cupboard to fix your boiler like we're not there yet. I think uh it will happen. Yeah, it will, like you said, it's a very long time ago. I do think there's an opportunity for trades though, in terms of like AI and like uh the infrastructure that's going to be needed and the training, you know. You think about there's a lot of water that's needed, there's a lot of electric that's needed, there's you know, to do all these data centres, all these different things. So I think I think uh there's a huge opportunity for young people and for trades to reskill. But it's who does it when it happens, there's so much stuff going on, isn't there, in that world. Um so no, I but uh yeah, I would say you've got some sort of more consistent stuff and then you've got some new bits coming up like making tax digital and yeah, CSCS changing that.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

I don't think Yeah, so I think I mean we're about to go on to sort of the the regulation and the red tape, uh, but you've sort of covered it a bit in that in that challenges sort of section, really. But do you think that causes a lot of anxiety and stress and adds complication for construction workers? Things like C I mean CSCS has been around for a long time, though.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Of course it has, yeah, but it's that whole grandfathering thing, isn't it, that's big that got stops. So that I think in 2020 they announced to everyone that if you've you've got no training attached to CSCS cards, you've got to buy twenty twenty four, which for me and if four years sounds like a long time, right? If you've been if you've been doing a job for twenty years. Yeah. And I think again in construction you can be the best and not have been through some qualifications.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yeah, I mean again I'm going to talk about him again, but I remember my my my dad had this challenge, yeah. My mum's back, Mark, he's back again. Second time. Oh, my dad's name as well. Oh, there you go. Some similarities in names, isn't it? And your daughter's name's Ava as well, right? There you go. Same daughter, same dad. Wow. Villa fans. Villa fans people. Villa families. Yeah, villa families. Yeah. But um he wasn't, he just learned um uh he went to college, but what he did was my dad, I remember now, um, we he we were skin, right? And the certificate at the end was like, I don't know, 500 quid. And he'd learn all the the courses, and then he went, I don't need a certificate, so he didn't pay for the certificate. Then he went off, worked on a site, worked for his cousin for years, and then sort of 15 years later went to get a job working in the prison, and they were like, Where's your certificates? And he didn't have them, and they wouldn't hire him without them. Um, but they were that desperate for tutors that they said, come on board and go and get your certificates later. Um now he's got like petals and kettles and all this sort of teacher stuff. And that that's the problem, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Is that you're gonna get people like your dad, right, who have been in the industry forever, who in a world right now, for me, my logic on this is we need loads more people joining the industry, and we've got an aging demographic who are gonna leave, right? And let's remember, construction's hard on your body. On your body, yeah, yeah. So the idea that you're gonna have loads of 70-year-old plasterers, bricklayers, like ground workers like that ain't happening, right? Um, so then I'm like, how's it make logical sense to force the people who over a what is a short period of time, in my opinion, to train in in something they are definitely auditing and spend, but more importantly, spend money on it. Yeah, so money and time, the two things that they're desperate for, right? Force them to do that over a short period of time when they could have they could have really extended that period back, you know, based on the strategy around, you know, the government's got this huge strategy around uh new homes and skills, and they've they've set mandates and targets. I'm like, well, why couldn't you have had a decade where all those things were linked and done in the right way? Because really what it looks like to me is CSCS are gonna make more money, right? They've they have to renew every two years now. All the people who didn't have them have got to do them, and that's that's already kicked in. That's that's from 2024. Uh, in a world where, if you're a trade, you don't know where your next bill's coming from, likely, um, people are getting knocked every week for money, uh, bit of a race to the bottom, inflation from uh products and materials point of view has gone through the roof. And you think, well, is it fair? Yeah, why was there another thing they've got to pay for? Was there another thing they've got to spend their time on? Like, it needs to the industry's got a bit more food about getting people into it and and accept that it's not the same as every industry, so why have we got to like hinder it in every way through and that's not me saying it shouldn't be safe? Yeah, we're one of the most dangerous industries, but we're one of the safest. The health and safety um protocols we've got in this interior are amazing, they're incredible. Yeah, um, but why have we got to like mandate people to do more work that isn't the work? Yeah, it's crazy. We've got so much work to do, and we're making people do other things that isn't the work.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

I'm like, like, why? Yeah, it's all I mean, look, um, without getting too political, it's all about tax money, right? And someone's got and the problem is that you've got a four-year government and then the new government comes in and they have their own ideas. There's no consistency, there's no consistency, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 25:40

And it's been an interesting thing because the training providers, I think, you know, you'd you would just think, okay, more training, more money. But the training providers are like, okay, but now there's all these new like tickets that people have got to get, we're not set up to do them. So some people are like, this is amazing. Others are like, Are you sure this is the right thing to do?

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

I just don't like the way those decisions are made, I guess. And I think it's difficult for me to sort of get on board with with people being rushed to change.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

I don't think they're consulting actual construction companies and workers enough, though, are they?

SPEAKER_00 26:08

No, it all goes through leadership counsel and then that's it. Yeah, it's it's not so that's for a different episode. That is for a different episode, no, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Yeah, so I I know Lee and all this will contribute to this, but one of the things that I know that as a business you guys are super passionate about, um, and I know you are personally, and and Simon Hills as well from Wise is the mental health side of sort of self-employment. Um, so you know, you mentioned it earlier about construction having the highest suicide rate. Um, but do you want to talk a little bit more about why you think that is, and I guess what can what can the industry or you know, what can we do in general for self-employment to to improve that? I know it's a difficult task, but yeah, you almost have to do something, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Yeah, I think, and and again, this is where our businesses are, I think, crossover, or certainly our industries or what you know, communities, however you want to word it. But um we did a massive piece of work on it in 2022, I think it was. Um and uh one of the biggest things that came out of out of it, which which I hadn't really thought about um was loneliness. Because if you think about again, like in the tri from a driver's point of view, right, often they're just on their own all day, working long hours, you know, in the trade, you've got certain trades that will definitely work on their own. The only person they might see is a merchant, you know. That's why those relationships at merchants I think are really, really important. I think the merchant in the world is not just important for people to get their products from, I actually think they play a huge and I think they play a huge part in the world.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

It's like checkouts at supermarkets, right? Yeah, like that conversation that the old deer might have.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Yeah, exactly. You know, it's it sometimes might be the only people and they build relationships, they go there because like I'm gonna break my doubt and I'm gonna go and do that. They do it because they need the product, but they do it because Yeah, they're like the pay for it. Um so yeah, I do think the merchant uh that again that's a separate thing, but I do think there's a huge part they play and they do a good job of it as well. Um, but yeah, so and and I had uh we did this thing with um we've got a charity that we support construction sport, and we did this like rally in Scotland with Drove Ryan in the van and met loads of different people as we were going around, it's great to like four days, and um I I met this PD, a painter decorator, and and and he he said something to me that's really stuck with me always um about loneliness. He's like the thing is that people don't realise, but like in like most countries across the world, solitary confinement is um is actually given to people because uh as a punishment, you know, and and it's done for that reason because everyone knows that it's really hard to deal with and it's you know uh and he's like but like there's so many trades out there that are essentially in that same environment for 10-12 hours a day, and I just thought that is rough. That is I've never really even thought about it. I know it's their choice, I know they're choice choosing to work, and you know, it's not um a prison basement or anything, so I'm not you know, it is different, but they do see daylight and all those things. Well they haven't committed a crime either, they haven't committed a crime, yeah, right. Yeah, just not done the tax return, yeah, yeah. But like, but it just I just thought, wow, like what a sad mm, what a sad thing for him to say. Yeah, that's how he feels. Like, I feel like I'm someone who's in solitary confinement. I thought that must be happening all over the place. And I think so so loneliness is one of those things that I think has got to be combated with. One of the other things that came out of the date that we got was the just access to professional support. Because I think everyone, I think as an industry, we've done a really good job of making sure that like mental health or ill mental health is like the industry's not got the best mental health, and and and I think the industry's owned up to that well, right? If I think in the journey, the 12-year journey we've been on, the first six years, no one ever mentioned it, and then I'd say this the past six or seven years, everyone has gone like every business has got a structure for it and a policy and sport, right? Yeah, but the suicide rate has been going up every year, and so then I'm like, there's a disconnect somewhere, and the data for us shown that that accessibility bit, you know, you think about like I bet everyone here has got access to an EAP and like you know, different health programs and all those things, but like you know, Dave down the boozer isn't getting private healthcare on EAP for like you know, Jen and and like Rob who worked for him on a sub- and you know, he ain't doing that right because that's that's not the system, that's not the structure. Yeah, and so then you've got nearly a million people that don't have access to stuff that actually most industries pretty much all industries do. Um and and I think it's f you know, it's like anything with your mates, you talk to your mates, all that, and if you've got good mates and you've got good relationships and uh you can talk to them about anything, but it gets to a point where they can't support you because they don't know how to, right? Professionally, they don't know how to, and that's why um, you know, therapy and and intervention and those industries exist because they work um and people train for years and years to be in them, but then construction doesn't a lot of construction doesn't have access to it. So we did a thing called Project 7,000, the Lost City, and it was all around we've lost over 7,000 people over the last decade in construction, and we worked out that we could have we could have built a c uh city the same size as Cardiff. So we we from a creative point of view, we're like, okay, how do we bring this to life? So we we did this campaign, and the whole idea was we want to raise money for the two charities that we do work with so they can put people through therapy when they need it most, and yeah, and that's a that's a uh initiative that we've got running for you know as long as we want to as long as we want to run it. And I think it's about trying to connect the dots for the industry personally. I think it's about going, okay, we've done a really good job of talking about it now. But you know, like anything, you get like a business world, right, and you go, right, the K what's the KPI? Yeah, yeah. Well, our KPI is like, how do we stop the numbers from growing? Growing up, right? And then you and then when they've stopped from growing, right? How do we reduce them? Yeah, of course, yeah. And I just don't think those dots are being connected, and so you know, I think that the industry needs to like wake up a bit, um, provide better working conditions from a financial support perspective for trades, because we know that is the biggest indicator for when people get to a point where they're like, I've had enough. Um that financial it's like this financial well-being coupled with people's mental health and and well-being. It's like, how do we like give more support?

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Um, and and you know, that correlation, right? If you just pull two industries together and you say a white collar industry versus construction, they get sick pay, pension, regular pay. Yeah, so they know they haven't got to fight, they don't get knocked for work, right? Um, they have EAPs, they have access to certain well-being products, all these different things. And then this lot get it's not that they get a bit of it, they get none of it. They get none of it, and then we go, why have these lot got such bad well-being and like mental health? I'm like, because they don't get the same support, so we've just got to try and level the playing field a bit, you know, and and and it's hard. Don't be wrong, I can sit here and preach, you know, we are trying to do something about it, and and so I feel comfortable talking about it. I'm not saying it's simple and I'm not saying necessarily anyone's doing anything wrong, but I think it's gone on for too long now.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Yeah, I think it's uh it's actually quite quite sad, really, isn't it? Yeah. Um, because you know, we yeah, when you were talking there, Leon, you sort of sort of sit here and you know, we've done a fair bit on it over the last couple of years. We've done a bit over the years, like so we give all of the drivers that uh use our products access to uh free mental health support, yeah. Right. So we pay for that, put it into the program for free. Um, but I don't I hate tick boxing exercises. Do you know what I mean? I think that is almost the the opposite of what good looks like is doing something and going, oh, we've done it and sort of move on. Uh and as you're talking, I think you know, all the big bodies that represent as many people as you know wise do and as on the tools to we've all got to do as much as we possibly can to educate. I think that's the point. And I think it's the education piece. As you're talking, you're like, you wouldn't know these things unless you were saying them. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's I think that's the point. So no, I think it is uh something that uh you know we all keep trying our best to uh to push, and I know that I know that you do. Um so it's great, Lee, what you guys do, really great. Um, and then the you mentioned it there, and we've sort of merged the uh the the two sections again, but which is great, uh, but you know what this fairness and this practical sort of support stuff, you know, what else can we do to sort of push that on? Do you think there's there's more that can be done, or do you think it's the responsibility of the the government a little bit as well to sort of chip in on this?

SPEAKER_00 34:20

Yeah, it is. I mean I without getting on my soapbox too much about it. I I so the way I view this is uh and I and I can talk about it in a guess in contextual way of of going if you look at COVID, right? And this is no, by the way, no slight on say this before people start like jumping on the bag manager. I'm not slagging off public sector or NHS here, I think they're brilliant, by the way. I really do. Um but during COVID, NHS, public service were like like praised, and rightly so. Rightly so, yeah, rightly so but there was this massive thing when COVID first hit where construction carried on for about a week, right? And then everyone kicked off that people were still on site, you know, uh trans people were getting uh you know abused, shouted at because it was like you shouldn't be, you know, all this stuff, right? Uh to the point where the builders merchant shut they put happy things were shut in because they didn't shut. And then about three or four weeks later, everyone kicked off and nothing was getting built, right? And so then they they fought for this like key worker status like everyone else had in in you know that needed to be working, but couldn't get it, and we we ended up getting this weird hybrid thing. And it's always stuck with me as this thing where I'm like, well, are the air we breathe, right? Construction does it for us.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

The roads we come to work on, the trains that we travel on, the schools, hospitals, yeah, uh prisons, yeah, um the buildings that we work in, like it's all construction, right? Yeah, this this country stops when construction stops, right? When and and then you know, add on to that, you know, your boiler breaks, yeah, like trades keep our homes warm and running and like all these sort of things, right? And I'm like, they are a they're the hidden public service, right? Yeah, but they don't get treated like it ever. And they've got a bad rep, right? And that might be what you know, it might be deserved right from years gone by and decades gone by, but the industry's grown up a bit, and like and and I think so. Sorry, a lot my long-winded answer to this is that I actually think it's that it what I would love to see, and what we tried to do with the Lost City, and albeit it was on quite a you know, it's a very heavy subject, so you don't get everyone engaged because some people switch off to it, and I totally get that. Um, whether they're triggered by it or whether they just don't want to, you know, don't want to know about it. But it's almost for me, it's actually trying to get people not in industry to care about tradespeople and construction. We're in a world where we need more homes as a country, we need more infrastructure, there's so much of it going on, um, and we're lacking people joining in joining, right? And then we've also got this, you know, and this is for a separate conversation, but we've got this massive, massive problem with um young men, right? Uh and loneliness and meant ill mental health and uh not feeling like they belong somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 37:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Youth unemployment is at its highest, you know, as of a couple of weeks ago. Um and I'm like, well, there is an industry crying out for young people that often feel lost, yeah, and that have fell into an industry. Educational system doesn't push them into construction, they fall into it because they've failed. That is still a thing. Uh the route is go to uni, do you know, do all of that. And so then I'm like, well, can't we connect the dots there? And can't we position construction as a career that can be great for people? Yeah. And that they are a P a set, but then but before we do that, we need to look after them. Yeah. And it's like, as a parent, I'm like, I love constru as a person, I love construction. As a parent, do I want my daughter going into construction? Oh god, I don't know. On one hand, yes. On the other hand, I'm like, well, is she gonna be looked after well enough? Is she gonna get could she run her own business? All these different things, and so you go, like, I would just love to see the country, and I think it's starting to happen, albeit it's because we need more homes. I don't care why it happens, yeah. Like actually, over the last couple of years, construction has been in the news a lot more for positive reasons or certainly more supportive reasons rather than the old like white van man stigma that needs to change, or you know, all those things. Of course, yeah. So I would love I think for the industry to change, um, its perception of it needs to change, and and and I think the general public need to try and support and born that happening, yeah, which is a very hard thing to do. It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

It's funny actually, because obviously we were deep in the midst of launching wise when Covid hit. Uh, and but actually, I think that Covid did a lot for delivery drivers more from a positive perspective, yeah. Uh, because they were I remember the very early days of Covid, they were sort of blaming delivery drivers. They were like, oh, they're spreading it because they go to so many homes and whatever else. And then about two weeks later, it was like, no, no, we need delivery drivers. Yeah, we can't get in there. And then I think people, because they were so reliant on delivery drivers, almost realise that you know what, we need these guys. What would we do with that of them? What would we do with that of them? Uh so I think it I mean, don't get me wrong, and I'm I'm glad about this, you know. Kobe's right in the rear of the mirror now, right? We've we've almost forgotten about it as a country, but uh he did do a lot, I think, for positivity around delivery drivers and the and the sector. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it feels like you know, construction almost needs that as well, needs that reason why everyone can sort of get behind it.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

Yeah, and we've seen bits of it with like tool fairness. I've seen I've definitely seen a some outpouring from general public around how bad it is, and you know, uh, but yeah, it needs to get to that next level where there's a bit of a at government level as well, where it's like actually something's got to change here because this is an in this industry is one of the most important ones for this country across the next 20 years. Yeah, uh, it just is, yeah, from a people point of view, because there's loads of other industries that are going to get taken over by technology, right? Um, and so I just I I would love to see a world where construction is put on a pedestal and and about how brilliant the craft is and how amazing some of the things that are that can be built and how it helps the the people run their lives and all. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean on that perception of that at the minute is that's not the perception of construction.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

I mean on with you, I mean maybe it's because I come from a you know a trade person sort of background with friends and family, and I've worked in, you know, my dad used to drag me, drag me along as a labourer and stuff like that. So I've sort of been there, and maybe because of that I've got more appreciation for it. But we had a fella come out, we had a problem with our boiler the other week, and I was so happy to see him. I was like, the house's freezing.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

I was lost, welcome emergency.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

They're an emergency service. Hey, I'm not gonna know it's a deal. It's not a life-threatening emergency service, but like I don't want to be cold. You don't, but but then like but then in other worlds, maybe it is, you know, you get someone, yeah, pensioner who hasn't got their board working. I'm like, it is actually really, really important.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Well, we've got a two-year-old uh and they asked that question when we called have you got young children in the house? And I said, Yeah, my son's too. Uh and they prioritised us because of the actually, I won't name the company, but uh actually in all world because it was British gas, uh who get a big rep. Um, but I called them and they went, I can't get anyone out until tomorrow. And then on her own back, this lady called me back about 30 minutes later and went, No, no, no, actually, I can get someone out of cheer tonight. And I was like, Wow, that's amazing. Because I didn't kick up a fuss, I was like, okay, we'll wait for tomorrow. I got the old litric heaters out. I was ready for a cold shower. Um, and then um she called back off her own back and said, I'll rearrange things and I can get someone out of cheer tonight. And I was like, Wow.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

But it's those things going wrong like when your boiler goes, it is a killer, isn't it? And you're like, oh no, you realise your house is useless with that thing. What now? And you go, I can't do it. And then you're like, what? Someone else was three days. What? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It was like no hot water for three days. What? Yeah. But that you instantly feel it, and I guess that's my point. I do think, you know, and then it's like it's an extremity, but I do think they're a they're a hidden public service, they're a hidden emergency service that they're but I just don't think they get the the prowess and the support that that goes along with that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

No, you're so right, yeah, you're so right.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

It's a bit like the I mean the potholes at the moment as well, they're absolutely dreadful, aren't they? Um I don't know if you've ever seen it or not, but like, and this is what again it kills me, and I I didn't know this, but there was a there was um a documentary on it. Uh I'll have to find the name of it, but it was about um road workers. Yeah. You would not believe the amount of abuse that road workers get, right? For like just laying out part of the road where, you know, like something's gotta be dug up or honestly, I couldn't believe it. And it's really funny, well, it's not funny, but like around the time I watched it, about a week later, I was coming through Tamworth where I live, and there was a guy, because I'd never it never really struck me that that was a thing, right? But that this documentary, I was like, oh my life, like this is awful. Like, I can't, I can't, and the scale of it, because they'd like give you all the numbers of incidents and all that, and I was like, I can't believe this. Um, and there was a guy putting out some road works and it was it was causing a bit of a trap chat, anyway. And and as if by like magic, some geezer is coming packs and I'm waiting. Pulls up, the guy's putting a cone down, just and he pulls up, stops his car, winds his window down, and starts giving this geezer so much grief, and and uh and then just speeds off and I uh and look, and I wound the window out to him. I said, Don't worry about him, mate. I was like, just forget you doing like don't worry about it, like he's like, No, don't worry, I get it all the time. It's like it's spore off the back, you know. And he was big big geezing. I was like, But this other guy, and I was like, what is wrong with people? And uh and I I thought, and and so like road workers, for example, it's like what one of the most dangerous, particularly motorway, the amount of incidents and like uh that happen through people just being completely ignorant and negligent around like driving, say for um you know, like when you see when uh things go to one one lane and all that, the amount of like tragic and it's just done because people are like idiots, yeah. They're just Don't comply by it. Like going too fast, hit a cone. You hit a cone at 50 miles an hour and it hits someone, they are dead. Like you know, those big that they're just gonna go through someone. Like and and um again, it's not that that example of they're this they they are an emergency, like you're funny, but if those things aren't done, the roads can't get done, yeah. So therefore we can't get anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

I've heard from two people this week that have pot tyres and had to come off the motorway because of potholes.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Yeah, yeah. And the roads are really bad, but I think the problem is with it, is that it's a human nature thing, isn't it? Is when people are trying to get to work, yeah, it's like one of the aggiest things ever when you get stuck in traffic in it, uh, or they're trying to get lights, temper traffic lights, it's all that. So it ends up being that person's fault. Yeah, yeah. A pothole, and then you look keen like, well, that's a road worker's fault. You know, it's not, it's just the counts that haven't invested into the roads. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 44:49

You do though, you're like on the roads and crap.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Yeah, but I think they get almost to get they get tarred with that brush. I'm like, no, they're the people that fix it, they're fixing it, they're doing what you want them to do. It's mental, but it's that it's so I just think there's a lot of that.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Yeah, no, it's crazy. Um, yeah, no, it's uh big up to the road workers, yeah. Big up to the road work. I agree with that, yeah. Uh Lee, look, I mean you've spoken a lot about um about this already, but I think you know, almost let you summarise it, but I think you can feel your passion coming through, which you know is evident that you know you use the power of you you do use the power of the community right to do good. And do you think you do you think listening to you you would and this is a great way to be by the way, um, but you you know, Under the Tools is a commercial organisation, yeah. It feels like you know, your passion is in improving the the sector, and you think that's the responsibility of having such a big audience and a big brand that you you actually do that, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

And I uh uh uh quickly won't bore you with it, but there's this the story of how this happened. So we're about four years in, and I got asked to go and tell the story of on the tools at this like construction marketing event. I went and I wasn't getting paid for anything, I was like, Yeah, yeah, I was like, never done one before, it's just amazing. Yeah, yeah. I got trained to London, I'm like, oh yeah, anyway, and I went to and it was much bigger than I thought it was. So yeah, got in there's about 400 people, and I was like, Oh my god, right. And I'd like prepared these slides with some funny videos on and like just told the story. And look at me and I took loads of photos when we first got the first office, and it was like this little tiny room with like prison bars and anyway, telling the story, and I thought and it went down really well, yeah, right. Um and then it was like 10 minutes or 15 minutes for a QA at the end of it, and I'm not joking, I got battered on it, and it was like um I felt like a um politician. Oh really? And they were like, Why is there no diversity in construction? Why are these videos this? The health and safety implications of you posting videos, all these different things, and I was just thinking, and I was just like, oh my god, get me out of this room like I am dying on stage. Uh and I probably I maybe answered them okay, maybe I didn't. I looked it back, I can't remember what I said. Anyway, I got on got back on the train and I was fuming. I was just like, this is absolute waffle. Like, again, my whole day up, I don't own construction, like I'm just I'm just a geezer who's trying to like make some money, like leave me alone. Like, and uh I rang out and I was like, you know, proper bitching with him on the phone. Then I got into the office the next morning and I'd had got in there already. We used to have this table in our first office, it was called Hogwarts, it was just this long wooden table basically we called the area Hogwarts, and he was sat at Hogwarts and I and uh and uh he'd already done me a brew. I was like, alright, yeah, I was still you know, I was still like moaning about this, yeah. And uh and then I sat down and uh I said can you believe that? And he was like, I think they're right. And he said, I think you're being a big bitch, and I was like, Oh, oh what do you mean? And he was like, Well they like what are we doing? He's like, We're posting loads of funny videos, we're trying to make money, so then we're making some money and all that. He's like, But the audience is growing and growing and growing, and as it's growing, we're finding out more and more stuff that they don't get. He's like, what are we actually doing for them? All we're actually trying to do is just monetize their eyeballs, yeah. Uh it's like we need to like change how we're doing things and have a bigger, bigger picture. And I and I remember it's like a a lightning ball hit me, and I was like, oh man, you're so wise. I hate to need his wisdom from like you know what I mean. He's probably bloke, but it just he's quite good at that, quite being quite good at being silent and then dropping a bomb in, and everyone's like, Oh, yeah, uh again goes against the stigma of the like you know, the thick builder, you know, it's that whole that thing of like, you know, and um and so from that that day forward, we then like tried to sort of come up with like well, what it you know, it took ages as well. It's that whole thing of like, why do we exist, you know? Yeah, of course. But we sort of landed on on that, and then that and it probably wasn't that when we first started. I don't know whether it was as clear-cut as what it is now, and I you know, um, but it but it became about that, and I think like it's hard, isn't it? Because like you you run a business and like um when you start a business, you start well, certainly. I told you earlier, like we started the business because we wanted to get something and flip it and sell it and like that was the ambition of it. I think everyone starts a business. Yeah, right. You do it to make money and get by and like all those different things, and and like you know, whether people believe you or not, when you get to this point where you're like, well, actually, it's a there's a bigger picture at play. Like if we sold on the tools now, right? Someone just come in and offered me an amount of money where I'm like, oh my life, I just can't say no, I can't say no to that. Yeah, uh, I would always regret, always, I know I would, of not being able to take it to the next level of being able to sort of tangibly like and I don't know whether this is like a legacy thing or what I don't know, and it's it sounds a bit cringe really when I wasn't saying it out loud, but like there's there's just some I know I'd be frustrated, yeah, because I don't think I'm ever gonna get the opportunity to build another on the tools. I think we landed on something through timing and luck and passion and ambition and all these things, and you know, me and Ad and Mark all being best mates, knowing each for years, so it was very like there was no um we could say and do what we wanted to each other, knowing that there was never gonna be a fall. It was very clear on what we were trying to do and what the roles were and all these different things, and like I would I think I would just be devastated at not being able to have that opportunity to like do more, and and yeah, I want to make a mark. I want to make a load of money, mate. I honestly I want to be like because I want to do loads more. I you know, I've got I've got friends who I've been friends with since I was in junior school, and like and there's we still hang out as a big group of us, and it's uh and like I have out these you know, these visions of being like selling the business for just an amount of money that I you know my mum and dad will just be like, I can't believe this has happened, you know, and that I can be like help all these other people out and same as me. And then and then do something else with a pot of money, and you know, what you know I I'm of that mind, I know I won't start working all those things, but I will never get that opportunity to do what we're gonna do with on the tools. I'll never get it back again. And so there'll be a don't get me wrong, there'll be a timing bit where maybe I hate it, you know, I don't know. But right now I I I feel more engaged with the community and more passionate about getting to that end goal than I think I than I ever have. Maybe because I think the opportunity is nearer and I think we're doing stuff that now is like feeling more tangible. Maybe maybe it's that, I don't know. But like I yeah, it's I really do care about scrap what happens, you know, to them. And uh you know, and I think we've got to the point now where we're like no one else can do it for them. No, no, you're right. I went from the bit of being, you know, going back to that thing of being like it's not my responsibility, you what are you all on about to being like maybe it's our it maybe it is our responsibility, maybe no one's gonna do it for them. Like maybe we just need to get on with it.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Yeah, yeah. Matt I love that. And then um it's great. I mean, look at your you know, your passion definitely definitely comes across. It's actually really inspiring, actually. I'll be honest. Uh inspired me today, maybe so. I think that's gonna happen. There you go, with a bit of inspiration. Um for on the tools, then as a brand, you know, what's next? What's coming up?

SPEAKER_00 51:55

Um well to that end, yeah. Next week, yeah, uh, we launched the on the tools card. So essentially a discounts and well-being platform for for anyone working in construction. So it's kind of acting uh it's weird really what we've covered today, and then what it's what this ends up. It sounds like it's like the perfect thing facing what we spoke about, not, but maybe it is because of all these things that have been going on, you know. But like it's kind of like this uh acting as this like there's loads of tools in there and content from a well-being point of view, signposting, access to therapy when they need it through the two charities that we support through Lost City, uh, and trying to put more money in people's back pockets. That is ultimately what it is, and and we think that nothing uh exists for anyone working in construction with this. I don't think it's gonna. No, you get employee benefit things, and I get that, but again, for self-employed, it doesn't exist again because they're not in it's not a benefit because they're not employed, yeah. So you uh uh and you know, we think again you think about the purpose, but like, oh, this is more tangible now. The more people we get using that, the more people that the more we can show them how much money they've saved. How can we correlate what content is being used from a well-being point of view and then put back into industry? How can we then support our current partners and brands by going, look, people who are using your deals uh are actually using more of this content on the well-being side? You should do more work around this. Like, there's so many dots that we can connect, um, but we can I can tangibly go, how many people are we actually helping? Right now, it's like we've got this huge audience, and yeah, you know, we get so what we're getting, we get like two and a half billion views a year, right? I don't know who they're coming from. It's brilliant, and they're great big numbers, but I'm not I'd rather have a number where I'm like, well, I've I've helped 50,000 people this year uh get support through content of well-being content, or I've saved um 50,000 tradespeople um a collective of 50 quid a year as an average. Like that to me is living the purpose better than what we are currently doing, and and I think um there's been a lot of work going to it. I mean, I I think it has uh key it kept me awake for uh ever since like a year ago as these all these projects do. But this is I think it's the biggest thing we've ever launched, it's certainly the most amount of work we've ever put into anything, and yeah, I'm just really, really excited to get it into the market and get people using it. And and if we can help people um more than we are now, then absolutely winner. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

Just on that, Lee, I didn't ask you this before actually, but let's say you got we've got a construction company that's listening, um, and they want to promote this to their self-employed construction workers. Can they get in touch with you guys? 100%.

SPEAKER_00 54:38

Yeah. So there's uh on the toolscard.com, go to that website, you can get in touch with us there. Um and absolutely, so we've we've actually got partnerships that are already ahead of launch that are already um cooked up where the certain brands who are using it has their EAP. Oh great. Uh which is which is great. And and that work, you know, and certain recruiters, because again, from a recruitment point of view, sometimes you do get access to those things even though you are uh subcontractor, but again, it's like how much they use it, there's all these different tools, isn't there, that you can sometimes get access to. But for me, things like this always work better bottom up, i.e., the individual user has engaged with it, yeah, and therefore then they're hopefully going to use it more. But absolutely, any employers, any recruiters um that are thinking it can be a USP for them, I don't care why employers or recruiters want to get hold of it, I care about it getting down to the boots of the ground because I think it can be a tool that can help people. And we already know the data already shows that finance. I think I said it earlier, finances are the biggest kicker for um ill mental health in construction. So I'm like, well, if we can connect those two things by saving people money on stuff that they're never gonna save money on because no one looks after them, yeah, of course, yeah. Uh and you've got the EAP bit, and give them the tools when they might need it. Yeah, I'm like, let's just get it in control.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

And I think you guys have hit something really great because you've got the audience, you've got the on the ground people, that's your core audience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you you've got the way of getting in front of them. Um, and I think you know, blending that in with your normal content, you know, I think you'll get you'll you'll potentially even get more loyalty from these guys because they can see you're actually trying to do something.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

That's what we want, but you know, uh that is part of it. It's like how do we, you know, from a brand point of view, you're like, how do we integrate the brand and make people feel even better about it? And it's like, well, how do you help them all? Isn't that it, isn't it? How do you give them more? How do you think that's it?

SPEAKER_01 56:26

It's the old addies, right? If you if you build something that's useful and helps people, then the money will come. That's the old thing that they always say, right? Yeah, so they start with that sort of purpose and then you sort of go from there.

SPEAKER_00 56:36

Yeah, so super excited about that. That's really all that is on my idea. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:42

It's always good to have one sort of thing you try and nail pad and the pum, but yeah, yeah. But you get you get bombarded, don't you? Yeah. So Lee, mate, it's been a pleasure to have you today.

SPEAKER_00 56:52

What I'm more proud of than I think it's been the first further on the podcast, you know what I mean? Yeah, I feel honoured. I'm shocked it's took you two eight episodes to do that, mate.

SPEAKER_01 57:00

Yeah, I know he's a bit disappointing actually.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

I'm yeah, I know a lot of Is Emery on next. Uh I'd love him to be on watching. I don't think you could interview him. I don't think I'd I think you would crub. You need to bring someone else in and you need to be outside there.

SPEAKER_01 57:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:12

Because you couldn't be wearing clothes, man. I couldn't wear clothes sitting, man. It'd be too emotional for me. Yeah, yeah. It would it would put people off wouldn't it if you're crawling in the corner. With your like Emery scarf and like a picture of him and I've got a little picture of him in my office.

SPEAKER_01 57:26

He just looks at me. Looks I'm having high as well, so you can look over me all the time. Yeah, yeah, so it's watching over you. He's dead. He's not. He's not dead. Um no, so we leave obviously the links and stuff uh on the on the tools carding, the bio and all that stuff is so put it all on LinkedIn and stuff. But mate, thanks for coming in and uh we'll see you soon. Up the villa. It's a villa podcast now. Like a good villain podcast, really good, yeah.