Episode 13: Employment Rights Act 2025: Workplace rules rewritten

The UK is undergoing the biggest transformation in employment law in decades - and businesses can’t afford to ignore it.

In this episode, we unpack the sweeping reforms introduced through the Employment Rights Act 2025 and explore what they mean for employers, employees, and subcontractors alike. With 28 major reforms designed to shift the UK towards a more “pro-worker” framework, the way businesses hire, manage, and dismiss workers is changing fast.

Whether you employ staff directly, work with subcontractors, or simply want to stay ahead of the legislation, this episode breaks down the key changes in a practical, easy-to-understand way.

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:00

If you've got two or three employees and you don't get one of these things right and it catches you out, it could put you out of business.

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Law plays a massive part in like the HR profession anyway, but we've never seen like this this amount of change in a period of time. Day one, right? So one being paternity leave, only the leave, not the pay, which is interesting.

SPEAKER_10 0:21

So yeah, like coming up in 2027. And lawful to dismiss a woman that's pregnant on maternity and six months after.

SPEAKER_06 0:31

We would never have liked that sort of thing. No, because we're really generous, aren't we? It's a special time. You should be able to be that sport, isn't it? Oh, we've got someone. Check it's got four, I think. Some we got some breeders.

SPEAKER_10 0:46

If you don't have that culture of like care and listening that we have, yeah, you might not feel comfortable to speak up.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

People can get lost a little bit, I think. If you've got one manager who's a bit of a pig. Badaff. The bereaved partners, what are they calling it? PPL or something. Not a BPL.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

I definitely are overplaying BPL.

SPEAKER_09 1:15

We do not pay for your BVM then.

SPEAKER_06 1:22

Okay, thank you both for joining. Uh so we're here today to talk about employment law, which is obviously a little bit different to what we'd usually talk about. So we're normally purely talking about self-employment. And I know we're gonna go on and cover some of the implications for self-employment during the podcast. But before we get into that, introduce yourselves and I'll try not to make you laugh this time, Greggs. Uh so over to you.

SPEAKER_10 1:44

Yes, I'm Grace. I'm the HR and office admin here at WISE. Um, and I've been here about just over a year and a half now. Um, and I essentially support Hannah on all kind of day-to-day operational HR um duties.

SPEAKER_06 2:00

So you're a pleasure, Grace. You are fear of asbestos.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

But you said rational. I do with that.

SPEAKER_06 2:07

I think he's rational to be fine of asbestos. Yeah. I don't think there's many people in the UK left with that sort of going film.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

It's not kind of a common fear. I wouldn't say it's a main fear of mine. No, no, no. Just one of the Hannah. I'm Hannah. I'm the head of people and culture. Um, been with Wise for coming up to five years now.

SPEAKER_07 2:34

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

So yeah, um, never thought we'd be sat in this podcast room five years ago.

SPEAKER_07 2:39

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

And yeah, look after alongside Grace, look after all things kind of HR in the business.

SPEAKER_06 2:44

And a brilliant job you do as well. Thank you. Yeah. Um yeah, five years, crazy. I know. Um also I remember interviewing, which feels like a long time ago.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

It does. I remember that. Yeah. I remember we got talking about um can't remember now. What was that? The office, the American office.

SPEAKER_06 3:02

Oh, the American Office. Yeah. Love the American Office. And then I was like, yeah, I want to work here. I was at a meeting with a customer recently and I said a very obscure American office reference. Uh I said something like, oh, if it gets to that, like it's level midnight. Uh and I thought, I wonder if anyone got that reference. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when we had a break, I said to the one guy, um, I said to someone else, I made a couple of really random references there. And then one guy went, Yeah, American Office. And I was like, Yeah, like you. They're at level midnight. Um okay, so the reason that these podcasts actually come about is obviously I've been talking to you two quite a bit recently about the changes in employment law. Uh, and I think I've got increasingly shocked actually by some of the changes and how drastic they are.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 3:53

Um, and you know, whilst you know, our customers deal a lot with self-employed subcontractors, they still still do still have employees. Some of them have a lot of employees. Uh, and actually, you know, we're a decent sized employer now, 90 members of staff. And some of this, when you were telling me, I'll well, as you know, I was like, What? Yeah. Um, so I really thought it was worthwhile sort of covering some of the major sort of changes, why we're seeing these major changes and you know, what to watch out for if you are employing employing people. And I'm caveat that because you know, be careful. And some I always say this when we're talking about uh self-employed drivers as well. This isn't about us trying to get uh employers off the hook and not treat their employees well, uh, but there's a bit of both on both sides actually, and it's about making sure that you're doing things correctly because it's really easy to do it incorrectly now, yeah, with with all the red tape that's coming in. And actually it's bad for both sides uh because some of these changes, you know, we might be able to absorb them with 90 members of staff. Uh but if you've got two or three employees and you don't get one of these things right and it catches you out, it could put you out of business. And actually, then you your employees they're out of work, and that's not what they want.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

And at the moment, it's a full-time job trying to stay up to date with it all. Like we were talking about this earlier. Like, if you haven't got someone internally that's like looking at it, it's hard to keep on top of. Like, and that if you've missed it, it's not going to be intentional, but like there's so much going through.

SPEAKER_06 5:26

Well, we have that one right, and obviously we won't talk about what it was. Um, and it's not obviously a big one for us, but there was something that changed in like, I don't know, what was it, 2024? Yeah. And we thought it was new, and it was like, oh no, this has been around since 2024, and you guys are are professionals, right?

SPEAKER_10 5:41

So but I can imagine for businesses that don't have a HR team, which is pretty common for smaller companies, like how on earth you'd be you'd possibly keep on keep on top of that? Possibly it is at the moment and run the business. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 5:54

You're right, you know, it is so it's the biggest overhaul of employment law, right, in a in a long time. Um and I'm ri I am reading my notes here, so I'm sort of cheating. Um but 28 major reforms. Yeah. 28 major anything. You can have 28 major every well, obviously you can because it's happening. I know 28 is so much digest, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 6:19

Um, like you've never experienced change like that.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

Yeah. Never. Like, you know, law plays a massive part in like the HR profession anyway, but we've never seen like this this amount of change in a period of time.

SPEAKER_06 6:34

And you know, this is more of an opinion, I guess, but you know, why do you think we're seeing so much change? I know obviously Labor governments always are on the side of employees, right? And never on the side of employers. Yeah. Um, which, you know, can can be good. Um, but do these reforms do you think tie in with each other? Some of these are off-the-cuff questions now, but do you think they're all linked intrinsically, or do you think some of them are a bit off the cuff and a bit land up?

SPEAKER_10 6:59

They're all trying to enhance employee rights, aren't they?

SPEAKER_02 7:01

So Yeah. I think that they're all trying to, I think, strengthen the power that employees have.

SPEAKER_07 7:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Um, you know, the view is that over the years, having a conservative conservative government in power, that that's got less and less and less over the years. So, okay, they're huge reforms, but they're trying to get us back to kind of like a bit of a level playing field with other countries.

SPEAKER_07 7:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Um, you know, other countries in Europe. I think, you know, Labour having such allegiances to trade unions also makes a huge difference because they're always trying to improve workers' rights.

SPEAKER_06 7:39

Um it does the job of a union, isn't it? Um, but yeah, just 28 just feels like so much, doesn't it? I mean, I don't think you can change 20 out of anything. Do you know what I mean? It's uh just a big change. Um yeah, and I think you know, this is this is something we see definitely uh you know moving over into self-employment, which is um and obviously we're gonna come on to the two-tier employment system. I think uh it feels like a quite a almost like a holistic effort to I think they're almost I feel like they're trying to improve the economy by making these reforms, but you know, my theory is that they accidentally damage it by by by enforcing them. Yeah because obviously a big part of it is uh again, you know, with things like making tax digital in the self-employed world, closing that tax gap and I think making it less attractive to be self-employed, so therefore you become employed, and then you've got all these reforms from an employment perspective. But I mean, my sort of sense at the moment is that it will just become so difficult to employ people that companies will start going, I just can't take on the admin of actually having employees. How are you gonna engage people? Yeah, I don't know, it's future.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

No, it is massive problems crazy, and just and as well, like trying to increase mobility in the market as well, if those. But it it kind of can work in both ways, can't it? Because um, you know, if you increase day one rights, you'd maybe think that people would then feel okay to move around a little bit more. So there's there's that as well. But yeah, I think in in each area maybe there's pros and cons.

SPEAKER_06 9:18

Yeah, it's true, yeah, it's true. And then what will happen is inevitably is conservative government will win the next election. Now reverse it all again. Uh and we just go round and round.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

Yeah, pretty much, yeah. Uh yeah, it's the circle of life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 9:32

One day sweet release. Okay, so let's get into some of the challenges that are not already live, I guess. So you know. Uh do you want to talk a bit about sort of family-friendly rights and sort of what that means and the implications of that?

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Yeah, yeah. So there's there's a few that have uh come in as day one rights. So one being paternity leave. Um, so that used to be used to have to be in a business for 26 weeks. Yeah. Um, that's now from day one, but only the leave, not the pay, which is interesting.

SPEAKER_10 10:08

So yeah, like unless you have yeah, that's a statutory, right? So yeah, so it was an enhanced policy that they included. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:18

So sorry, let me, this is gonna be this are gonna be me asking loads of impromptu questions now. So let me understand this. This is like one of our meetings now. So I start a company, I don't tell them that I'm gonna be going off on paternity leave soon, but day two, I'm going on paternity leave. What do I get paid? Do I get paid to statutory?

SPEAKER_02 10:38

There's no, yeah. So no, there's no there's no pair until the 26-week period is over. So you're getting nothing, but you can get the leave. Ah yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:49

And right now you can't get the leave. Is that how it currently works? So if you start somewhere, you're not entitled to the leave.

SPEAKER_10 10:54

Well, right now it actually is a day one, right? It's been passed. It was 26 weeks.

SPEAKER_06 11:00

Ah, yeah. You know, that one, I mean I'm not here to cast judgment on it. That one you sort of understand, you know what I mean? Like, you're not getting paid, so it's sort of up to you if you want to take the time off or not, right? Um, and you shouldn't be blocked from taking the time off. Uh so I sort of get that. It surprises me that it was blocked before. I guess we we would never have blocked that sort of thing. No, because we're really generous, aren't we? Yeah, and also as well. I mean, how many kids do you have? You don't have many in your life, do you? Yeah. So it's a special time. You should be able to shoot.

SPEAKER_04 11:35

Unless you don't have four, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_06 11:38

Oh, we've got someone. Trevor's got four, I think. You look some we've got some breeders. Most people have one or two, don't know. Do you know? Yeah. I mean, we just say most people. We've got I've got two, you've got two.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:55

Yeah. Okay, sorry, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Okay, so the other thing day one right is uh to a right to unpaid parental leave. So unpaid parental leave has always been a a thing. Um so you're allowed to take a week a year um for the first 18 years of the kid's life. It's unpaid. And that has just become a day one, right, as well. So, and I don't know how this is ever being monitored right. So I leave wise tomorrow. You're all like, yay, and then uh and then I go to another company. How do they know how much I've taken? How many weeks you've taken the years, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 12:37

But it's unpaid, so So basically if you've got kids, you can have an extra week's holiday unpaid and they can't stop you.

unknown 12:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 12:44

Basically. Which is pretty useful, we said, for childcare arrangements, like summer holidays and stuff, half-term. Like I don't think I don't think people are uh as aware of that one.

SPEAKER_06 12:52

No, obviously at all. Yeah. Okay, that is interesting. I don't think it's used that much, but people don't want to normally don't want to go unpaid, do they? I know. That's a thing. Do you know what I mean? So it's uh it's one of those things, isn't it? You don't you get you don't often go with the option of not getting pays. That's always statutory pays, you know. Can be it's great if you get it. Um but you look at the statutory numbers and you're like, yeah, this doesn't add up to a lot of money. Yeah. But I mean look this is actually something that I've spoken about on another podcast. I'm actually really quite passionate about this, and and we're looking at something for again taking it back to self-employed contractors, they get nothing right. I know they're they're obviously now if you're you get maternity pay, um, but no paternity pay if you're self-employed. So you know you've got people that are paying taxes all their life, right, contribute to the economy in a major way. Yeah. They can be working for 10 years, flat out, and like a day's holiday, have a kid, they want to take two weeks off, don't get paid. That's not that ain't fair. That ain't not the reforms.

SPEAKER_07 13:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 13:59

Why not though? Um, because someone who's self-employed should be able to take a couple of weeks off and get statutory pay.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 14:06

Like they've put some of them are putting thousands upon thousands into the tax system in a year, and their taxes are paying for someone else to have statutory paternity pay, and they don't get it themselves. It's just out of order. Yeah, it's not fair. So we're looking at something uh we might do something on that ourselves for our customers, uh, which I'd absolutely love to do. And we chatted to Lee on one of the other podcasts from the tools about they were actually campaigning that uh in London. They did like a like a march almost on it for construction workers, yeah, yeah. Uh because it's just out of order. Um, so anyway. Um, so that they are really interesting, and then they've established this fair work agency. And what's the purpose of that agency?

SPEAKER_02 14:50

So the purpose of the agency is to bring together a load of other government agencies um and bring it under one umbrella, essentially. So before you had different agencies looking after different areas, and they sort of had different uh powers, I suppose, between them. Now they've brought that all into the Fair Work Agency, um, but also kind of with the added the added service of kind of supporting employees as well.

SPEAKER_07 15:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

So there'll be a slight overlap with kind of ACAS at the moment.

SPEAKER_07 15:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Um, so they can act like act on behalf of if they get like a whistleblowing complaint. So say someone went and said, Oh yeah, why's aren't they paying minimum wage, um, they could go to the Fair Work Agency and it it could support them as part of that whistleblowing.

SPEAKER_07 15:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

They're also there to support employers.

SPEAKER_07 15:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

Um, you know, so if we maybe thought we had a problem in an area, I don't know, not paying holiday pay correctly, we could go to them and say, okay, this is what we've got. Can you help us come to like a resolution?

SPEAKER_07 15:58

Oh really?

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Um kind of like confession, right? If you go and admit, they're gonna be like, okay, okay, that will help.

SPEAKER_06 16:05

That's why Chloe is all the sketch.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Yeah, if you don't and you get caught then.

SPEAKER_09 16:12

Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

No, but it's a bringing together of all those different agencies, and it's not uh I think a lot of people have been stressing about it in the HR world.

SPEAKER_05 16:21

Oh really?

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Yeah, but actually I think it's just the the powers that existed were already out there, it's being brought together. Um, yes, there's going to be like new initiatives, but it's kind of driven businesses to just look at those areas, which is a good thing.

SPEAKER_06 16:38

Yeah, no, I'll get that. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_10 16:40

I mean which we're kind of do we're kind of doing anyways, we're quite required to do, like to comply with the legal requirements, so it's just like another level. Yeah, I suppose.

SPEAKER_06 16:50

Yeah, okay. And obviously the Labour Labour are known right for being close. I think is that in Gahoots, or that's gahoots. But being close to the trade unions. Yeah. Um do you think that's heightened the the risk of uh or not the risk, isn't that the right word, but has that sort of heightened the importance or what trade unions actually do? Do you think there's more emphasis on those guys at the moment? Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_10 17:17

But they've ultimately made it easier to have industrial action with the with the new reforms, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 17:24

It feels like it's industrial action every week, isn't it? Is that why is that why? Because it's easier.

SPEAKER_10 17:28

Well, some of them are starting to come in, aren't they? A few of them have already passed. But I think that was like their main aim was to essentially make it easier for trade unions.

SPEAKER_07 17:37

Easy to strike.

SPEAKER_10 17:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Easier to strike and easier for trade unions to get recognition in the first place, in the workplace. So they've changed the way that works, basically. So um, you know, you in a certain bargaining unit, you only need 10% to be voting as to whether you want recognition.

SPEAKER_07 17:59

Really?

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Out of those that then vote, it only needs to be what was the percentage? The majority. Yeah, just a fact. Just a majority. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 18:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

So that's yeah, that's quite different. And it means trade unions can get in a lot easier with organisations. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 18:18

I'm super uneducated on unions.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Yeah, I've never, it's not my area of no. No.

SPEAKER_06 18:24

Yeah, look at not them existing are well, because they do they do complicate things, don't they?

SPEAKER_10 18:30

But think like we went in a few employment normal updates and like they said, how many of you in the room have been approached by train you trade unions? Because so many m more are approaching companies because it's easier to get um what's the word? Recognition.

SPEAKER_06 18:46

Yeah. So sorry, we are going off piece here, but how do you how what's the process? Who do they contact? So if trade union wants to come in, let's say, and have a union for wise employees. What's the process? Because obviously it couldn't come to me because I'd say on your boy, couldn't I? You can't sell on your boy.

SPEAKER_10 19:04

They can contact employees, can't they?

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 19:06

Yeah, that was the way. Yeah. I assume that was the way.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

They can contact us. There's a few ways for them to get in. Basically, they can try and gain allegiance like just through people. Yeah. So like gathering an area within the business and you know, trying to get in that way. They also often approach like business owners or or us to say, like, look, I've got a few people in your business already that are interested or or already part of the union.

SPEAKER_07 19:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

Do you want to discuss like an arrangement? Yeah. So they you can do it that way. Sometimes that's better because you can then kind of set your terms from the beginning.

SPEAKER_06 19:44

You know what? We could turn this into a completely separate podcast because I've just got so many questions about unions. I'm going to ask you two. Don't ask me. Exactly. I got like, what's the benefits to an employer, an employee, you know what I mean, etc., etc. Yeah. The only press, and this is maybe where unions need a rebrand. Yeah. Is the only time I ever hear about unions is when they're helping someone strike for something. Yeah. Check me. It never feels like a union has ever done anything for an employer. It's always they've helped an employee. And sometimes rightly so, because there has been I've seen you know press uh on where a union has supported a a particularly underpaid or underservic sector. So not disputing they do a they do a good job in those scenarios. Uh but then obviously you've got things like the tube strikes and all that sort of stuff where you know it's so disruptive and it feels like surely strike is like the very last thing you do. I mean effective are that if everyone's striking Lasagne.

SPEAKER_04 20:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 20:40

Do you know what I mean? Anyway, I don't want to end up with a target on my back from trade.

SPEAKER_08 20:45

Oh no, cool.

SPEAKER_06 20:48

We've got enough of those already. Um okay, uh what else has changed? Uh so I know there's lots of obviously we're not gonna go into 28 reforms, but is there any other really sort of significant things that have changed that you two think are worth sort of highlighting?

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Yeah, there's a few we've been working through, right? So statutory sick pay from day one. So you no longer have that waiting period now for statutory sick pay.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

And we were actually chatting um earlier. We don't know whether that's a good or bad thing for um employers because a lot of employers would have paid that that waiting period anyway.

SPEAKER_07 21:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Um whereas now that's being covered by statutory pay. We're like, well, I think a lot of employers have looked at their policy and thought, well, actually we won't we won't pay that anymore because you're getting statutory. So yeah, there's been a lot of change there that we've been been working through. Um and holiday records, another big one. I mean, we've got a good HR information system in place, so a lot of this stuff. We're able to track and quite easily put stuff in. But I think if you're a smaller organization again, that would be like quite an admin task.

SPEAKER_07 22:08

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

So having to keep records of holiday pay for the last six years. So yeah, there's a few, there's a lot are coming in the future around uh sexual harassment.

SPEAKER_06 22:21

Yes, we're we're about to come on to this, I think. Yeah. So I I know that there's a big push on this, isn't it, around employee employers taking all reasonable steps to prevent sexual harassment. So what does that what does all reasonable steps mean?

SPEAKER_02 22:36

I mean, yeah, um reasonable is like this could be a dice it off that is good.

SPEAKER_06 22:43

So that the thoughts I was having, then I was thinking about unreasonable steps.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

What's reasonable and why is it what's reasonable on your ass?

SPEAKER_06 22:50

Unreasonable steps for some bar people would be just like locking them in a cage or something.

SPEAKER_05 22:56

The people on the podcast the people in the podcast yesterday I won't say who that was. Uh yeah, they could do their own like sales, basically. Probably the only reasonable step for those.

SPEAKER_06 23:08

But yeah. What's all reasonable steps, I guess?

SPEAKER_02 23:12

So at the moment, the legislation is reasonable steps. Right? The stuff that's changing is that now it's all reasonable steps. So we can only assume that basically what what is the advice now is just going to be more secure and stringent. So there's a lot of guidance on their website around what you should be doing. So it's all around like keeping a policy on harassment, engaging with the staff, training the staff, making sure that you've got a means for people to report sexual harassment. Anonymously. Um so, and then it's kind of monitoring that really. So like thinking about when like business situations change, yeah. Um, making sure that you capture those new risks basically.

SPEAKER_06 23:58

Yeah, we spoke about this, didn't we? Because I was saying that, you know, we've got staff visiting um you know, off-site locations and you know, there's just risk there, isn't there? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Especially at some of the times and stuff that people are. It always feels like you know, there's there's almost like riskier times of the day, almost, isn't there? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And stuff like that. So it's definitely important to stay on top of it for sure.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Yeah, so an interesting one as well is that they're bringing in um more duty to prevent um sexual harassment from third parties. So as a business, we could then be liable if something were to happen. So, like if you're at an event or something with clients and yeah, we could be liable for that. So it kind of widens the net really um and kind of makes you have to check. It's a weird one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06 24:54

I know it's like how are we how are we liable? But what a third party does check someone else's behaviour. It's like what was like vetting everyone that we go and.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Well it's like how how do you do all those checks? Like, oh yeah, come to our really great event and also can you not sexually harass our staff? It's like it takes a bit of an edge.

SPEAKER_06 25:13

Yeah, just no, we don't like sexual harassment here. So if you're gonna come, please don't sexually harass anyone.

SPEAKER_05 25:19

It's like have a great time. I was only coming for the sexual harassment.

SPEAKER_08 25:35

Oh no, I'm busy.

SPEAKER_06 25:50

He's odd though, isn't it? It's really odd. Uh but but there you go. Yeah. There's no denying, just be serious for a second. Of course, it goes about the same, right? You don't want anyone to be sexually harassed. Uh and you know, we have had I've had people, staff make complaints to me about um things that have happened outside of the office. No one here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But things have happened outside the office, and they haven't wanted to progress them, but they've made me aware, and I've been, you know, pretty annoyed by some of them because they are out of order. Yeah. Um so but the mad bit about it is if they had complained, we'd be on the hook for it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So anyway.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Um You know, I think I think we're pretty lucky with the kind of culture we've created, right? We're we're very open and we have a lot of different methods for people to communicate, whether it's like to a manager, to a colleague, or you know, we've got an anonymous whistleblowing tool, haven't we, that is there if people aren't comfortable?

SPEAKER_06 26:49

Yeah. Um I think that is a really important part, actually, you've just said there, which I was almost going to get lost, but I think you've encapsulated it perfectly, which is because I'm just thinking about it now from a lawyer's perspective. I think what you said there is actually really important, which is because we've got the culture where people would feel comfortable coming forward and saying this has happened, you know, and we would do something about it and then know that we take it seriously. I think that's to watch out for other people, right? Make sure that your employees feel that they've also got that ability. And even if even if it's anonymous, yeah, at least is the way of doing it. Because I think if it happened here, you know, ours wouldn't be anonymous. I think they'd come to us personally and tell us what's happened, which is great that we've got that level of sort of trust with the people. Uh like I said, I've had it a couple of times, and a couple of times over six years where it's not been complaint level, it's been sort of like this has happened, just want to let you know. Yeah, it's actually pretty good. Um but it could be better, it could be zero. Um but um but I'd imagine in lots of places it just doesn't get reported, and then before you know it, it's a bigger issue, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:52

And it can be, you know, especially if if it's happening at work and it's a manager, or you know, it can, you know, if you're in a big organization and people can get lost a little bit. I think if you've got one manager who's a bit of a pig. Bad apple.

SPEAKER_05 28:14

So all of them.

SPEAKER_08 28:16

Predator.

SPEAKER_05 28:20

Um bad apple pig.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

All of those.

SPEAKER_10 28:24

No, but you can see how it would be hard to report right if that's your manager or like yeah, if you don't have that culture of like um care and listening that we have, yeah, you might not feel comfortable to speak up.

SPEAKER_06 28:37

No, you're right, yeah. So that's difficult. Yeah. I think you know, the one thing for us is I think where we've got people that aren't always in the office making sure they feel as comfortable as the people that are. Yeah. I know we've already spoke about this, but yeah, you know, that's I'd be devastated if something happened and we someone that worked here didn't feel like they could come forward. Like that would really devastate me. Um okay, so a big one from January 27 is the unfair dismissal period, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

Yeah, we talked a lot about that, haven't we?

SPEAKER_06 29:11

So I want to talk about a little bit about this, what this means, and you know how it's gonna because this is probably the most significant one of the most significant changes, isn't it? Um what does that mean and what's the what's the change, I guess?

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Yeah, so at the moment, um in order to claim unfair dismissal, you need two years service. Yeah. Um so that's gonna change come January. So it's gonna be six months service. So that means that anyone from the 1st of Jan who has six months' service from that point, so actually it's really from July, um, that kind of clock starts, um, they're gonna have full, full employment rights. So they have the right then to, if they're dismissed, it has to be under one of the five legal grounds for dismissal. So you've got capability, conduct, redundancy. The fourth is, oh, statutory restriction. So if they can't work in the UK, then that just voids the the agreement, or some other substantial reason. So that really nice, airy, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it has to fall under those. So yeah, it makes things um, you know, we were talking about it, like we don't abuse this rule at the moment, right? But I think you'll get a lot of businesses that do, right, with people that are under two years, they'll just say, sorry, not working out, don't really need to give much of a reason. Yeah um, but yeah, come January, that's all that's all gonna change. So then you throw in like probation periods in the mix and you could already nearly be up to that timeline.

SPEAKER_06 30:53

Well, this is I think where we got in sweet, because like you said, you know, we we don't abuse it, and I think you know, our record of the fact how many people we've got that have been here for five years and three years, like it's actually incredible how many people have reached those milestones. So I think that that's great we don't abuse it, but we have used it, yeah. And I think when you use it, and this is where it's really tricky for for us and all other businesses, is where yeah, I've got someone on a three-month probation, you know, they pass their probation, but they're performing at a really high level because they're new and they're enjoying it and they're excited, and then actually they come out of that period, and you know, the the the the new part or the freshness of the job starts to wear off, and then you sort of see performance coming down, and you know, you can't motivate them to be at the level that you expected them to be at. Um so it's a real short period of time. Six months happens so quickly. Yeah, especially now, you know, it's just with especially with working from home. Yeah, I think that's another part of it because you know, when I first started working, um uh you know, working right wasn't even a wasn't even a thing. I mean one of my old bosses, I won't, I won't, I won't name him. Uh I love him to beats, I still talk to now. He used to get annoyed at bank holidays. He's like, well, I gotta pay you because the bank's having a lay off. It's not my fault.

SPEAKER_05 32:10

Yeah, I didn't say it up. I didn't say it up.

SPEAKER_06 32:13

But see later. But so he um uh if I'd have even whispered to him working at home, he'd have had me.

unknown 32:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:22

Yeah, never a thing.

SPEAKER_06 32:23

Never a thing. So sorry, and the reason I'm saying that was is you'd have five days a week to really get to know someone and you'd be under pressure every single day. Now you've got like 40% of that time, and we do two days, right? So 40% of the time. So to see someone for the same amount of time, in theory, they've got to do two and a half times more time with a business. Do you know what I mean? So six months is is two years of face-to-face time near enough. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Yeah, so it's just so hard to you know really know if you've got a a lifer in six months.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

It is hard, and I think you know, it's gonna force businesses to get a lot better at performance management as a whole, like not using it in a bad way, right? But just like trying to assess people's performance, especially with working from home, right? Like why have they been brought in? What are their kind of metrics to show that they're performing or they're not performing, making it really crystal clear for people who are joining what what they're expected to do.

SPEAKER_06 33:27

I think this is one of those ones, right? I can sort of see why it's a good thing. Um, because you will get people abusing it, and you know, you've seen I've seen people that have been let go loads of times just getting at the two year mark, and that's out of order. Yeah, unfair, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 33:42

It is a long period.

SPEAKER_06 33:43

It is a lot two years is a long time. Um it just feels like six months is such an extreme. It's like you could have gone halfway again, don't yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

We thought a year go a year. I think that's what the CIPD were like pushing for.

SPEAKER_06 33:55

Yeah. Um a year is a I know that I just said six months goes like that, and so does a year nowadays. Um I think the older you get, the quicker it goes. But there's actually some science behind that, yeah. Is there? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

No, I agree with it.

SPEAKER_06 34:08

Shove it for a second, right? So the science behind it, I read a thing on this years ago, right? And the science behind this is that as you get older, you experience less new things. New things that create almost like the memories, the anchors in your brain, right? So as you get older and you've experienced the same things again and again, you start going, you've got no almost anchors, so like February for me, what happened? Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_10 34:32

It's kind of sad to do it.

SPEAKER_06 34:33

TV is sad, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 34:34

Yeah, it all blends in.

SPEAKER_06 34:35

It all sort of blends into one. Yeah, so that's why time feels like it's gone quickly, because you haven't got those things to go, oh, I did that then, or I do that then. Actually, when you're younger, you normally do things for the first time, you might be going holidays and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, do new things basically if you want to slow down time. Stay young. Stay young. If you want to stay young, do new things, yeah. Yeah, so complete sort of live advice, yeah. Just make sure they're safe because that might be the opposite effects. Don't swing with sharks, right? Because that might, you know, you might not be living the long time in that one.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

Um but the other thing to note around that, right, is that they've lifted the like the cap on like compensation that you'd get from a tribunal as well for an unfair dismissal claim. Yeah. So that's like quite crazy as well, really, because at the moment you've got like uh they'd look at a basic award, which is kind of loosely around like redundancy pay sort of calculation. And then you've got like an enhanced award, which is losses, really. So like how long you've been out of work and that sort of stuff. So like there's stuff, there's ways to do those calculations, whereas now it's just like, whoo, what what do you want?

SPEAKER_06 35:54

Well, because you were saying that the lot you there's tribunals being booked in slots being booked already in what she's doing.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

2030. 2030. 2030.

SPEAKER_06 36:02

And what is this just like I don't know, lawyers just saying, I'm definitely gonna have one, so I might as well keep a slot aper.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 36:08

Well, because they can't they can't be something already saying it because they're not gonna know, are they, for another two years if you can have someone in 2030. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_06 36:16

That's not gonna work. I know. Oh, anyway, let's let's see.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Yeah, it will be really interesting to see how it all plays out, right? But like Trace, you made a good point as well around like people moving on. Yeah, especially.

SPEAKER_10 36:29

So yeah, you if you've got kind of a HR person managing a case, if you're coming to a claim that's been brought to the employment tribunal in 2030, it's well, you never know, but it might be unlikely that that person that managed the the case originally has moved on to another employer, and you're not kind of obliged to attend the employment tribunal. So really it's kind of so somebody kind of has to make do with what you've got in terms of notes and just going through documents, kind of acting like that. There's not like a person to speak that was was there, you know, because it's so far forward.

SPEAKER_06 37:09

It's crazy, isn't it?

SPEAKER_10 37:10

It's yeah, interesting to see how it works out.

SPEAKER_06 37:12

It's definitely interesting. Okay. Uh and then what is there anything else sort of substantial in the public lawn that you think sort of reference worth referencing? I know we've covered a lot of the lot of the major ones, haven't we?

SPEAKER_02 37:22

Is there anything else that you think is Yeah, we have um more about trade unions?

SPEAKER_06 37:29

I think we've done our trade unions at least.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

There's loads coming up for trade unions, but you could talk about that for forever. More again, more on kind of family rights as well.

SPEAKER_07 37:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

More around, particularly around bereavement.

SPEAKER_07 37:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:43

So um like bereavement as a whole, but also like partner bereavement.

SPEAKER_07 37:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:49

In the event that you have a child together and your partner passes away.

SPEAKER_07 37:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Um, the other person could then continue that period of leave. So say the mum was on, it was a year off, yeah, um, and she passed away, the dad could then take over for that year and have it off with the kid. Yeah. So yeah, all good stuff, but more family stuff.

SPEAKER_10 38:11

Um one of the main ones we spoke about earlier was the it's not in place yet, but coming up uh in 2027. The uh unlawful to dismiss a woman that's pregnant on maternity leave and six months after.

SPEAKER_07 38:29

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_10 38:30

Yeah, so it's quite a long period of time. And it wasn't I was shocked, I was like, is that not unlawful already?

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Yeah, and I mean there's the that I think there is some reasons where you could, but generally you tread very carefully and yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:46

And you know what, Mark again, look, we said this earlier, right? Some of these ones, and I mean I guess the family side of it you know, you know you can't pick and choose these, of course, but the family side of it I feel more sympathetic to because I think you know, you hear these horror stories of people sort of being let go and uh just about to have a kid or just had one, and it's that isn't there. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

So um so the bereaved partners, what are they calling it? BPPVL or something.

SPEAKER_09 39:14

Not a BPL that later Don't give BVL some B.

SPEAKER_08 39:25

Skeepy, speech PL.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

Right to L and BV No, so let me let me bereaved partners paternity leave. Yeah, that's the one B PPL.

SPEAKER_08 39:42

That's quite hard to say. BBL's the We can't be calling it that.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

But that one's also unpaid, though. A lot of it's unpaid.

SPEAKER_06 39:52

Yeah, I mean the last of it is a bit muddy.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Yeah, like the practical side of that, like your partner's just passed away, you've got a young kid. Oh yeah, you can have the time off, but you're not getting paid for it. You'd be like, uh I'd definitely rather have unpaid BPL.

SPEAKER_09 40:12

Would you not pay for your BBM?

SPEAKER_05 40:15

You probably get a better quality one, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_09 40:19

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_05 40:23

Key typewise today, don't get your P PPL and your BBL fucking pass because anything.

SPEAKER_08 40:37

We're just having fun ourselves here, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:40

Yeah, yeah, I don't think anyone else will find this funny. Um then the only other stuff coming in is probably for much bigger organisations. There's a lot to do with like equality reporting, gender pay gap reporting, menopause reporting, yeah, demographic stuff really.

SPEAKER_06 40:57

But Well, because we do a bit of that, don't we? We've the great place to work stuff that we do. Yeah. Um and we do it in the reports that we do for inflection as well, like the employee reports and all that sort of stuff, right? Where uh I mean we never again, we never would. Um, but you know, paying people for gender differently and all that sort of stuff. That's out of order. Yeah. Totally, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:19

It still happens a lot.

SPEAKER_06 41:20

I've seen something bad about it. Um can't know what it was, but it was something I think it was in America, I think, of course. Um and there was something where this woman was getting paid something like $14,000 less per year, and she got hired and at the same time and at the same time as this bloke. And it's just like, how does that still happen? Why I know I'm not being funny, I've had loads of useless fellows work for me over the years. And loads of useless screaming as well. They can all be as great or as useless as you can.

SPEAKER_05 41:52

Judah, I just don't get that at all.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

Yeah, no, it doesn't make sense. I think a lot of people think that it doesn't go on anymore, but there's been quite a few big cases that have that have come on. I don't get that.

SPEAKER_06 42:04

And this is where you have to be conscious of it. Uh I think we are, again, we're good at it. Um that blokes can be a bit more pushy with things like pay and whatever else. And I think that is what creates that gap sometimes, doesn't it? Because they are just more lightly, I think, to sort of come forward and sort of say, oh, definitely doesn't apply to what is our women are definitely as pushy as our blokes. Oh, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 42:27

Um but um I think women going off on leave as well, right? To have kids, I think that kind of can set you back, but also like you feel probably less confident than coming in and asking for a pay. Yeah, because you haven't been there, which kind of makes sense to me. But I think I don't know, you've got to see it, I suppose, holistically of like, well, if I hadn't been off, where would I be? Or I don't know. It's hard, it's really hard. It is really hard when you get into that granularity.

SPEAKER_06 42:54

Yeah, it is really hard, and this someone I won't say any names, but someone that works the wise that I've spoken to this about and like the fear of going off and setbacks and that sort of stuff. And yeah, you know, this is definitely not my advice for anyone. Listen, don't take my advice and this sort of stuff. But I sort of said to this person, you've got to do what makes you happy at the end of the day. But I do understand that of course, you know, you you're not gonna get recognition when you're not here, you've done the work, yeah. You know, but where where I think it gets out of order is you're doing the same job as someone, yeah, you come back and you're still doing that same job and they're getting paid more. That's where I think it's out of order. Whereas you've got like certain jobs where if you're like almost the only person doing that job, then there's no one almost to compare that to when you've been off or not. Do you know what I mean? I think they're sort of slightly different, yeah, slightly different topics. But yeah, it's tricky. I do sympathize with uh women going off and having kids because it's tricky, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 43:48

I mean, physically you can't get away from it, can you?

SPEAKER_06 43:51

You've obviously done it twice, hangover, haven't you?

SPEAKER_02 43:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:53

Um it's uh he's a it's a thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 43:58

Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, there's a lot of anxiety around going off and kind of like leaving your your work to someone else, but then coming back as well and thinking, like so much has changed, or what if they've done a better job than me? There's all that. Like it's it is yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:17

You're right, yeah. Yeah, I'll have a week. I have a week off, and I'm thinking, please do a better job than me while I'm off. Um okay, yeah. All right, so moving on a little bit, so just taking it a little bit back to self-employment, which is relevant to some people that will listen to this. So uh and I'm doing a little bit of a little bit of talking here. So obviously, one of the really big things that Labour are pushing for is this two-tier employees, right? Um so let me just explain this in in my simple words, and then you two can tell me if this matches what you know. I mean it's sort of mirrors what they do in Ireland at the moment, which is they have a two-tier employment system. So in the UK we've got the three-tier, which is employees, workers, and then self-employed. And in Ireland they've just got two tiers, which is employed and self-employed. We sort of have this middle layer, which is workers, which are sort of self-employed for tax, but they have some worker, uh some employee rights like holiday pay and sick pay, and they want to remove that middle layer um and create two tiers, which sort of on principle feels like it sort of makes sense because why are two three? When you can have two, right? You know, two surely is easier. Um but I just think it's so much complication because you know, because there are three and they are the they're similarities, but they are different, you know. How do you how does someone who's got a a a workforce of workers then decide what to do? You know, yeah, because and I I can only reference Uber drivers are a really good example of this. So Uber drivers got reclassified from self-employed to workers and they were livid about it. Um and there's obviously that clutch of I'm not that's not every work the Uber driver, obviously, some would have been happy about it, but in general, they didn't want worker status because all he meant was they got paid less because now the money had to be split so they could cover holiday payments perfectly.

SPEAKER_04 46:25

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_06 46:25

So their earnings went down, and now drivers are going, Well, I I don't take four weeks worth of holiday per year, so can you only prorot a mine by X amount? No, that's not the way it works. Yeah, they have to factor it in for everyone. So I think it's such a messy It's really hard, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 46:41

Because I think they always assume that people want those heightened rights, but sometimes it actually works. I mean, it's it's the same for, you know, I think next year they're gonna be putting in some morals around zero hours contracts as well. Yeah, it's the same for that. Like zero hours contracts work for some people, like they they want that, they don't want like guaranteed hours. Yeah, there's like a similar sort of thing.

SPEAKER_06 47:05

Like I think there's always the assumption that people want more rights and more kind of stability, but actually I think you know, some industries I mean again, you can see why these things sometimes make sense because it gets abused, right? That's the problem, these companies abuse them, yeah. So they make people work in a certain way because it's commercially beneficial for them, and obviously, if you're self-employed, none of those protections around left the service and all those sorts of things come in. So understand some of it, but like you said, on the other hand, most of these environments the the the reason they're self-employed is it works commercially, yeah, and the people doing it want it that way, because if they didn't, they wouldn't do it. Do you know what I mean? Like it's it's bizarre to me. Why?

SPEAKER_07 47:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 47:48

And that's not me disputing or dismissing the the three tiers, the two tiers, because I can see merits in that. You're either self-employed or employed, right? Yeah, that's nice and clear because I think worker confuses it.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

It's always been a weird middle ground, hasn't there? And there's really weird middle ground, always been confusion around it.

SPEAKER_06 48:04

Yeah, there is something I think the thing is for me, workers just feel like employees. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Because you don't have all a lot of the the three pillars of self-employment basically go out the window, and it's you know, it's a lot less you can sort of lean on for workers. So I sort of get that, but anyone that's engaging with workers must be thinking, James, get ready, because I'm gonna be employing these people soon. Yeah, because I can't see it going back, especially like for no uh especially for like an Uber, you know, they must be thinking, geez, I've lost the case already to say that they're not self-employed. So then what's the other option? What's the option? I know. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 48:40

Yeah, the cost, the cost for businesses are gonna be really high, isn't it? Ridiculous, yeah, ridiculous.

SPEAKER_06 48:46

Uh and I think again, you know, the the key point here will be um the the subcontractors, the self-employed people won't want it. You know, some will, right? And I know that again I won't say any hands, I know one of our customers offered their self-employed subcontractors worker status, and they only had something like a 2% adoption for it. Really, to the point where it was costing them more to administer it than they were paying out in benefit to the actual workers.

SPEAKER_04 49:14

Really?

SPEAKER_06 49:14

Yeah, because it was just so much admin to administer, and no one the amount of benefit that the people were getting from it was less than the administration for it. So they've tried to sort of row back from those that 2% because it's just so much ag for them to manage it.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

Um you wonder why that's whether this stuff's been pushed out that little bit further, because when we were reading stuff about Labour's plan to make work pay, like that was one of their kind of main things they were talking about was this status stuff. And it seems like over the last couple of years it's like been just pushed out a bit further and a bit further because I think maybe they're going into like businesses and getting, you know, input and stuff, and everyone's just pushing back. Like it is a hard, it is a very hard area to get right.

SPEAKER_06 50:00

I mean, I it would take some brilliant brain here to actually go, how do you do this? Do you know what I mean? How do you do it? Because I actually wouldn't I mean I obviously I'm not the brilliant brain they're gonna come to, right? So they're not content. No, I'm not not yet. I'm not surprised actually. How will we do this?

SPEAKER_04 50:18

What's that? How will we do this, Dan? Dan, happy. This is what I'd do.

SPEAKER_08 50:29

Leave it as it.

SPEAKER_06 50:30

Stay as we are, stay as we are. Let's work it. No, but if someone can come in and work this out, it'd been all for them. Um but yeah, right now I'm thinking I just don't know how you unravel it all. Um there you go. I think you know, for our customers that are listening that are dealing with self-employed subcontractors, and I've talked about this for us something completely separate. Now is the time to make sure that they're as bona fide self-employed as they possibly can be. Um because you definitely don't want a worker claim at the moment, uh, because I just don't know what the future will look like in terms of them pushing them over to be employees. Uh and some of the models out there just won't work with employees, so there you go. Okay, so we're getting sort of towards the end now. So I guess some practical sort of tips, and I I I guess I can sort of guess one of them, but from your perspective, you know, with all these reforms sort of coming in, how have we been working through these changes? What's been your approach to sort of dealing with these reforms?

SPEAKER_10 51:29

I guess reviewing all the policies. Yeah. That was kind of the big task. So making sure that they all align with the new requirements, communicating to staff on those, training managers.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

Yeah, I think figuring out how it affects our processes as well. Um and working through some of that stuff, particularly around unfair dismissal stuff, because that's gonna have yeah, a real impact on probation periods. Kind of the hiring process as well, really. So we've we've looked at a lot of areas, yeah. It's been like we haven't really left anything unturned.

SPEAKER_06 52:09

Sorry. From from a policy perspective, were ours already sort of nine out of ten, or was there a lot of change we had to make? Just more from an interest perspective, I guess. Or was some lots of change and others were sort of okay?

SPEAKER_02 52:23

I think more that. Some yeah, some probably needed a lot more change, either to reflect some of the legislation or just to better reflect how we do things. Like I think that's the thing, as as you like mature as an organization, you naturally change things and maybe you don't always update.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:41

Um so yeah, a mixture, I think, of like some being okay. Some have been reviewed probably more recently uh than others.

SPEAKER_06 52:50

So it's funny, actually, isn't it? Because this is a little bit of practice, what you preach, right? And it was again, you know, something that for a separate subject again, we we dealt with earlier on this year, where I was like, right, we've got to make sure we're really good at this. Uh but we always preach to our customers, make sure that your contracts between you and your drivers reflect working practices. And then obviously we've been through the same exercise. Yeah. Uh, because they can really easily get out of date a boilerplate policy or a boilerplate contracts because you think, yeah, this is quite close to the truth, but then actually, as you work, it never happens in practice.

SPEAKER_03 53:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 53:24

Just staying on top of it is really important, right? So just say you get caught out. Do you know what I mean? And no one looks at these policies, right, until they've got a complaint.

SPEAKER_07 53:31

Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 53:33

Until they go, wait a second, I'm not happy about this. And they dig out the policy and go, it says it's like hang on. And you're like, Oh, I forgot you said that.

SPEAKER_02 53:40

Yeah. Uh so you see, you And that's where it's better to have them reflect your practices as long as they're within the legislation, right?

SPEAKER_06 53:47

Because then you're kind of naturally doing those anyway, instead of it being kind of dictated to it's so much easier when someone comes to you for something and you can they go, Oh, want it this, and you go, No, no, because before we do for this person, like this, and just how that's how we do it, and then the policy to match that. Because the last thing you want is you to treat someone differently is how your policy does, and then you treat that person now like the policy does, and then you've got to go back to the original person and it's like yeah, didn't quite get it right for yeah for you.

SPEAKER_02 54:13

So yeah, it's uh so that yeah, that's taken up a lot of time, hasn't it? Where do you learn about this stuff?

SPEAKER_06 54:19

So like if you're listening today and you're like, where do you pick up this information? I know you two have been to like seminars and all that sort of stuff, but there's so much stuff out there at the moment, so much.

SPEAKER_02 54:31

The CIPD is a really good place to go. So they're they're um like the institute for HR professionals, yeah. So you can access stuff on their website.

SPEAKER_10 54:42

They'll have like a they have like one page, it's like a tracker, and it'll literally go into every area that has upcoming changes that have been passed that are upcoming to be passed, like yeah, in in detail. Um we also go to a few um employment norm updates with solicitors, they kind of hold sessions for HR professionals and they'll go through kind of what's what's upcoming, what you then need to do in practice to reflect any changes. And yeah, so those are pretty good to get on top of the changes.

SPEAKER_02 55:14

I think just sharing knowledge as well, like knowing other like HR professionals that you can go to, like people that you've met along your career, or like a courses that you've done, or whatever, like it's really good to have those people that you can say, like, well, this is coming up, like what's everyone doing about it? Like, caution. What do you think about this, how it's gonna work in practice?

SPEAKER_06 55:36

And as if you I guess if you're a business owner, things like the CIPD and stuff like that, are probably the best place to go, or maybe engage a HR consultant or I mean CIPD work really closely with the government on this stuff as well.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

So they do a lot of like lobbying and being a bit of a bridge between businesses and government. So you know what you're getting from them is like really accurate. Oh, 100% and up to date. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:03

How good are they?

SPEAKER_02 56:04

Yeah. So good.

SPEAKER_06 56:05

Just how otherwise use it 100% that they'll be good.

SPEAKER_10 56:07

Oh, they're a trustworthy source, yeah. Very yeah, yeah, very that's good.

SPEAKER_06 56:11

When I think of CLPD, I'll just think of they're the nine that are on certificates, aren't they, when you do like professional development? That's them as well, isn't it? Is it the same people? Yeah, yeah. Um okay, so we sort of touched on this, but do you think staying on top of the legislation and understanding how it affects your business? That's the that's the most important thing, I guess, isn't it? You know, to make sure you're compliant is just understanding it, I guess, isn't it? And it is tricky, and it I do sympathise with people because we've had like hours and hours on it.

SPEAKER_07 56:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:41

And I remember the one topic we were just like, you know, going round and round on it.

SPEAKER_02 56:44

I was like, so what if this and what if that is it is tricky because and and like how do you just fit it in with how you want to run the business? I think that's the that's right, that's the hard thing. Yeah. Um but I was saying to you earlier, wasn't I, like, there'll always be until some of this all plays out in case law, we'll get a better idea of like, oh, okay, that's not okay, or yeah, you'd come up with this solution. Actually, we've seen that that doesn't work, or yeah. So it's gonna take a few years for things to work through.

SPEAKER_06 57:16

It's exactly the same for self-employment, right? It's the same as with the right to work check stuff, and we're talking about like the extension of liability, and it's like, well, what happens when this? And it's like, well, no one really knows yet because there's no guidance on it because it hasn't happened yet. And until it happens and it gets tested in court, and then the courts decide, yeah, there's nothing to re-reference it again.

SPEAKER_09 57:36

So it's just like, we think maybe do this, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:39

And then hopefully we're right. Yeah, um, but I think you can sort of instinctively take legislation and sort of think, how do I think this should be applied? And you're normally quite close to the to the right outcome there, aren't you? I don't think you're never gonna get penalised for being close to it, it's just if you act maliciously against it, right? So I think things like the extension of liability, where it's like, I'm I'm saying to people at the moment, which is again no case law for, I'm sort of saying you've got a duty of care now. It's like if you've got suppliers and you know they're not doing right to work checks, that's where I think you're gonna get into trouble. I don't think you're gonna get into trouble if they if you are checking and they're not doing something because they're being malicious. I don't think it'll extend to that. Yeah, but who knows? Because it could go into case law and they could go, no, no, you should have known every single person you should have checked as well. Yeah, now that feels unlikely. Feels excessive, but who knows until it gets tested.

SPEAKER_04 58:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 58:31

So I think ours to summarise, to sort of wrap up, it feels like stay on top of go to the CIPD's website, which is great, and look at what legislation affects you. If you have got employees, make sure, just like your self-employed people, your contracts and your policies and all that sort of stuff are up to date. Um, and I think uh if you had got I would say if you've got more than a handful of employees, you probably should be thinking about using some sort of outsourced HR company to be honest, particularly at the moment, yeah. Too much, isn't that too much a bit through. God knows what we'd do if we didn't have you guys. We'd clear us. Yeah, Giants making it up.

SPEAKER_04 59:10

Oh, that'd be dreadful.

SPEAKER_06 59:11

I see that someone else involved. Jesus. At least you get a sensible view from us.

SPEAKER_08 59:22

Yeah, no, no, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:26

Um thank you both for joining. And is it at the right time because it's getting really warm and here's anything? Just that's all we can get some oxygen. Um, yeah, um good to have you both on. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 59:39

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_06 59:39

Thanks for thanks for being on. We didn't miss around too much either. You as well be live, Grace the start.