Episode 14: The six year anniversary

Six years, 2,190 days, and a lot of gray hairs later. To celebrate Wise’s sixth anniversary, Dan Richards (Deputy CEO) and James Orton (CPTO) sit down with our Marketing Manager, Chloe Tierney-Martin for a raw, unfiltered look at their journey so far. 

We deep dive into the culture and the personal values of the two people steering the ship.

Transcript

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Why is it so important that you've built such a great culture? You enjoy work as much as you would your regular day life, right? You've got a great culture. I think it's a good balance of work and fun. Maybe a bit more fun. I think one of the things I say this to people when they talk about the culture at at Wat is, I d I don't want to work in a boring place. So I want to see how in sync you really are. So we're gonna do a Mr. PC. Exactly. So who is more high maintenance? Yeah. I asked a couple of people based on your premise and they said you as well. Who said that? I don't know. When you're not in the room, yeah, busy people, how do you make sure that the culture is still there or how you want it to be? The reason it comes through so quickly at wise, if you get someone that doesn't share that work ethic, is because everyone supports each other. Because there is a temptation when you're a perfectionist and control freak, you know, which I think me and James are both borderline perfectionists and control freaks to an extent. Right? Yeah, yeah, and it's just who is the best at keeping secrets. Yeah. Dan hasn't spokeswoman already, so I've said, and I was like Dan was gonna tell you anyway, next day, I've got in the shit because I've said it. I think we are we are really ambitious people, and I think sometimes we need to temper those ambitions because you never really celebrate the wins, because like you're always looking at the next thing and great. He would be the worst boss. Why do you say meh? Because I think I'm a great boss. It's the fact that he has to add on, one would say, Tom Hills. That's what Tom and Hills phrase. Or he'll look at the guy and he'll be like, and I'm no like, or he'll look at me and be like, I'm no like, there's no need. Yeah. What is one? Non-negotiable, that still drives you both every morning. Not settling for second best. Those high expectations and and making sure that we are making a difference. For me, there was one decision that we made, which I think was the best decision we ever made, which was anyway. Welcome back. Thank you. The five year plus one and a virtual, because I can't count. Yeah, yeah. That was probably the first error on this podcast. I was like, five years. I swear it's been six. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure it's been six years. I've realised not maths, not great. Oh, okay. Just around a note that I'm left myself. Who has aged more? Out of me and dad. Yeah. Five years plus one. Nah. He hasn't really aged, I don't think. What? You're joking. Blonde what I mean. Yeah. He was fully blonde. I was actually looking at his hair this week, and he is like mega grey. Nah. He's like Gandalf the Wizard. Mega Grey. He's mega grey. Not mega desk. But he is like proper silver now. Yeah. Oh. Um. But I've got an opinion on this aging thing, right? So and James might not like this. Right. Too bad. I think that I I definitely aged. I think the gap between me and James was a lot, he looked a lot closer for a long time. But I think my ageing has sort of slowed down, I would say, the last couple of years. Not that yours has sped up, but mine has slowing down. So what's the answer then? So you answer Jackie. In a polite way, you're saying that, yeah. I reckon until about a year ago, it was me. And then for some reason a mine has slowed down. Why though? I don't know. I just think I'm healthier than I was twelve months ago, eighteen months ago. How do you feel about that? What can you say? What can I say? I am older. James is older, to be fair, but do I think he's aged more? No, probably not, to be fair. I feel like Dan looked older than me. Dan's always looked older than me. We probably look about the same age now. Yeah, I think it's equal. I actually don't have an answer for that question myself. But then if that's if James's statement's correct, then that does imply that James has aged more than me. Or that Dan's gone backwards. Or that I've gone back, or de-aged. I feel like since you're not Dan 8 Dan anymore. Yeah, I've de-aged a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. It's the waiters de-aged. The weight has de-aged. Yeah. No, you know, that's fair. No, no. I think I look I looked like I mean your picture you seen of me. It's fine, just talk about it. It's all right, don't mind for the people that are watching. Yeah. I was telling Lily about this actually. I saw a photo of you us three and Joanna. And I had a bit of a jump scare. Wow. Oh my god. A jump scare. Where's this going? Because Dan looked swollen. And look up and I messaged him like, oh my god, you look swollen. He looked like how I look when I have my look reaction. It made me have got embalja. No, I didn't. I did feel bad. It was like nine o'clock in the morning. It was a bit harsh to say fucking. Don't look swollen. Oh yeah, I did say you look swollen. She's fine, keep going, yeah, keep going. Uh yeah, I'm sure. They also said that we've all had a swollen ear set. I've had a few swollen ears, to be fair. Um Dan had a swollen ear like every six months or so for a period. I did. Yeah, yeah. If you look at my weight, he's like it's like it's like a pulse. It's like this, something you hang on here. It was quite a regular heartbeat. It wasn't quite a regular heartbeat, yeah. I was always like putting my hand on, losing weight, putting my hand, losing weight. This is the most consistent I've been for a long time. Wouldn't you say? I would agree. On the healthier side, I was consistently unhealthy for quite a while, actually. Yeah. Um but that was partly through food challenges. Yes, I did take on a lot, I used to take on a lot of food channels. To be fair though, I don't actually remember you looking like that. Yeah. No, no, I know. That's weird. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, back to the actual script. I think the comparison is quite stark. But I think when I was living it, it wasn't like, oh my god, here's this tubie Bella Jeremy. I think they're side by side. I reckon I could do a pretty good lot. But to answer your question, Claire. Yeah. Do you remember um do you remember in Little Britain when he holds when he's holding his trousers up? And then he puts them on. Actually, his old trousers are just the ones he's wearing. Uh anyway, yeah, we got a bit distracted there. Uh anyway. Um I'm surprised we haven't aged more, to be honest with you. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, this has you know been uh a um an interesting, but you know, but it has been a stressful, stressful journey. Do you know what I mean? Some years more stressful than others. Yeah. Um like I said, look at Simon Hills. Oh, I really don't think he's aged. You're so wrong. Oh, because for the first two years of working here, you didn't even look up from your desk. Yeah, yeah. You were scared of looking at anyone. Yeah, you don't remember anyone pre-2023. You were shocked that 70 people worked. Wouldn't you change me now? Um yeah, that's a silly question. You would. Of course we'd change her. Why? Back to how it was. Not quite there, but there's a happy medium. Yeah, there is a. Somewhere in between that's really nice. Okay. You're right. That is actually that's probably right, to be fair. All you do now is give Dan grief. Yeah, that is true. I agree. I agree, I think. I've been reflecting a lot this week. Have good week for it. See, we'll see. Maybe positive. I'm not gonna say what my feedback I give to him today, because I don't want Matt to go out on the podcast. Uh but it is called some reflection, isn't it? I've been having a long, hard look in the mirror again. You are one of them like you have to be careful what you say to Clover. Oh, you do, yeah. I have to think to myself, I have to run for like every permutation of how she could take something. And then tone it back about 50%. Yeah. And then say it to me. Yeah, it's alright. So then the last thing you said. Say it to me, say it to me, say it to me. I'll be fine, and I say it. What do you mean? What was that again? What do you mean? Yeah. Just what you did. Back to the script. Yeah, okay. Culture. Culture. You've built a culture over six years, you're very passionate about it. It's not just uh a word, you know, you live and breathe it. Why is it so important that you've built such a great culture? I think for me, work is where you spend the majority of your time, right? So you know you want to be in a position where you enjoy work as much as you would your regular day life, right? Um and that's what we tried to kind of replicate, just we are all really friendly at work. Um we all get on uh for the majority of time. Looking at you too. Um but yeah, I think we've just tried to replicate like an environment that we would want to work in. Yeah. Um and just tried to bring that on to a little bit right. Yeah, I think James is spot on right. You I think you know, it's the old phrase, isn't it? If you enjoy your work that you never work a day in your life, do you know what I mean? So I think I think one of the things I say this to people when they talk about the culture at uh at Waters is I d I don't want to work in a boring place. Do you know what I mean? So, you know, from my perspective, I I don't want to work in it, so why would that be the culture of the company? Do you know what I mean? I want to come in and have a laugh and you know do what uh I do. I mean I only get to do it in tiny little snippets. Uh I think that's a good thing though. Yeah, yeah, true. I think I'll probably end the ultimate distraction to be fair. Um say both are not in an offensive way. Yeah, I I think I make more of an effort to distract the devs because I know how much James distracts my stuff. I go out of my way to distract them. Yeah, yeah. And we'll literally go out of his way. But purposely. No, no, I don't do I don't do it too distract, yeah. Right, but I love to he has no reason to go to where the devs work. No. Yeah, it's like a sacred room. Yeah. Whereas like James has to walk past you, he's hit him his office, so it's a little bit more valid. But to be fair, I mean I'm being genuine here. I get people going, Where have you been? You're not seeing you, you're not coming around. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, he's sensitive to that. I couldn't believe it. I do. I am you know I'm popular around there. They they love me on the man as the people, you know that. I mean they call myself the people's champ, that's sticky. I wasn't when you have to give yourself a nickname, it's kind of like that. I've give myself a lot of nicknames over the years, to be fair. Uh but you want to keep it turning your nose up anyway. You're always banking on Dan's the office door. It's true. To get stuff done. Yeah, true. I don't distract you. I don't distract you. What? I don't distract you. Sh shut the front door. Oh. What do you mean? You don't distract me. I would say 90% of your talk is moaning about stuff that I have nothing to do with you. Quite enough. Wow. Wow. Next question then. Uh yeah. How do you culture's it really important, is it? Well, culture's really important. Well, we're honest, that's part of our culture. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Direct, honest. I love the culture sometimes. Most of the time. No, most of the time. Sometimes I don't enjoy it. I wouldn't challenge him, but sometimes it can be a bit much. No, you are right. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, go on. But um when you're not in the room, yeah, busy people, how do you make sure that the culture is still there or how you want it to be? You know what, we were talking about this yesterday, so um we had an off-site yesterday to talk about sort of people and culture in general. Uh and it actually comes down to the people that we've hired. Um, you know, I think you know, I'm not saying we've we hire people that you know are like us because that wouldn't be that wouldn't be healthy. Uh but you know, they've got a lot of the same principles and morals. There's no one like us, right? No, there's no one like us, that is true. They've got the same principles and morals and the same ethics and whatever else. And I think that way then you don't have to work on that sort of stuff. Do you know what I mean? You know you leave the room and you're confident that the people that are left in there, you know, are gonna act in a way that you know you expect them to act. And I think you know, we do have a laugh and and whatever else as a company, um, but you know, we're respectful of each other, and I think something that I think shines through in the culture at wise is work ethic. You know, we like to we like people that work hard. And I think the reason why I mean it sounds daft, everyone wants hard workers, no one's hiring someone because they're lazy. Do you know what I mean? Um but I think the reason it comes through so quickly at wise if you get someone that doesn't share that work ethic is because everyone supports each other. Yeah, so it stands out, so you quickly become a weak link, uh, and then you just you know, almost the culture just absorb uh uh almost absorbs the person and spits them back out again. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, and to do that when you have ten people is is one thing because you're in the room more, right? And then as you get more and more people, and now to be at 90 people, and for that to still be the case, I don't think Jams and I can take any more credit than you know at the start. It's the people now that the brought in and the managers that we've got that have really kept that ethos going. I think the fact that we've uh Dan's absolutely right, it's the recruitment in the first place, but also after the recruitment, like making sure that those people that you have hired are the right fit. Yeah. Um, you know, we've we've had a lot of people start here and not necessarily be successful in their roles and they've moved on quite quickly, but our retention is incredible. We've you know, you've been here for five years. Five years? Um you know, you mean that have only been here five plus one? Yeah, um plus one, yeah, not plus six. I like the one plus one anyway, it sounds cooler. Okay. Five plus one. Um but was that sound cooler than six, five plus one? Yeah. Oh yeah, because that for everything going forward. With Clummy's maths, it's probably seven. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, you're terrible at unit. I know I'm terrible at math. Yeah, I think we've got had we've got a lot of people that have been here since the very beginning and know how me and Dan Lot were and have kind of taken that on their shoulders as well and kind of have passed that down to other people. So I think it's just been uh it's just it's just grown throughout the business, right? Yeah. And I think you know what, uh Chloe, you know, I'll say something nice about you, Rodrigo. You know, you do for me and for James embody the boys' culture, definitely. Yeah, you you yeah, you you're not perfect, step out. Um but I'm glad you throw that in there so if you didn't cry. Yeah. Um, is actually a good gap for you, actually. Is that a part of your reflection? Yeah. Um but you um you know you you do work hard and you know you do help others when when you need to and whatever else. You know, yeah, you you are a good cultural person. You got high standards. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? That's important. I think that's the one thing that me and Dan are probably even worse now because we have less time. But like we do have high expectations of people, right? Um so you know, like there's there's certain people in the business like yourself that we know we can give you something and it's going to be executed at the kind of level we'd expect, which is just such a relief. Oh yeah, I know, you've got so many people, right? Yeah, you're right, yeah. I think it does come back to that it does come back to that recruitment policy. And I think I was talking about this the other day actually, because we were talking about probation process and I was like, I haven't done a probation meeting for for a long time because it's the managers that hire the people, not me directly. Uh but the fact that those people have come in and they've met match the culture just tells you it did a good job the first time around bringing the initial people. Yeah. I think you can tell straight away then when someone's like a wise person. Yeah. Yeah, that is a thing here, definitely a wise person. But I'll be honest with you, I mean, look, you know, from a culture perspective, you'd have to shout out our ek our old workplace, Sticky, because you know, a lot of what transferred over into wise was you know what we had at Sticky. Yeah, Sticky were just trying to replicate it in the first place, right? We loved working there. We did, yeah. Sticky did have an amazing culture. Um I would say, and I've said this before, but I think the part the problem that we we've had here is I would say that the f the day-to-day fun was higher at Sticky. We had more day-to-day fun at Sticky. Um, but I would also say uh uh if anyone at Sticky Watches watches this, that overall we're when we definitely compared to when we were there, this business has always been quite a serious business in terms of our ambitions. Yeah. Uh whereas we did have a a period at Sticky where I think everything was everything always went alright at Sticky. Yeah. Do you know 600%? We were never like we are here, where like sometimes you know we're in high stress, you know, really have to get stuff done mode. Yeah. We just had a really regimented way of working at Sticky, so the the balance between sort of work and play was a lot more even than it is here. Yeah. Uh we're sort of like a work hard, play hard, whereas they were just like work and play every single day. Really? I mean, yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, you'd have no you'd no idea. Well, it was it was we'd never lunch every single day. Me and James were done hours lunch. Yeah. Every day. We never have a lunch break, either. No, no, no. But yeah, that and I think that's what we've we've tried to replicate. So I suppose if they are listening, shout out to Carl and Damien because they were they were the kind of people that were pushing that uh uh when we were at Sticker. Well Tagamine, so they'd all have been named up. Yeah, Carl. Yeah, and Damien were funny. I mean Carl and Damien were like they always had ideas about how to do stuff, they do challenges between each other as well. They were they were better, but you know what? They were both really creative. Yeah. Um, like we didn't call them store ideas and like the scavenger hunt that we did. Oh yeah, you said about that. Yeah. Now I think the best scavenger hunt we did was the one meeting jams organised. Uh but they came up with the first one, they put the first one, so we just cut took what they just improved it. Yeah. Yeah, we just improved it. Uh but yeah, no, they uh yeah yeah, like the pool table at Sticky was like the heart of the company. Yeah. Really? Yeah, yeah. It's kind of his here though. It was. You didn't think it was. I haven't played a game of pool in about 18 months. I've never touched that pool table. You've just said it's part of the company. I know, but from everyone else. Yeah. I don't know how to play. So I wouldn't embarrass myself. Loads of people like that at Sticky though, like they'd never played pool before and then they came and lunch tons were just around. Yeah, for me, no. I think it ended up being a great player. Yeah, you've been a really good pool player. Yeah. Yeah, she did chill. Yeah, but yeah, it was like it was the thing that it was a thing at sticker. Uh like you'd have like the early cream and then you'd have like the late cream. Basically, the late cream is everyone that wanted to avoid avoid me, James, and me and Carl. Um, because pretty much it would just be us abusing each other for about 45 minutes basically. We had loads of little things we would do, loads of phrases, going out of the room, you didn't catch one of the lads had to go away. Um he had a he had an operation. Oh bloody ad. And I recorded a soundboard of loads of sayings that we used to say around the pool table because we knew he would miss Dan so much. So we just had like a soundboard that we just send little snippets of words that he'd Hollywood sixty. There was so many little phrases. Yeah. I think it was yeah, in terms of uh yeah, I think sorry, back to the point. We transferred a lot of the good parts about Sticky's culture over in wise and you know, tried to keep that sort of vibe going. And you know, mission successful from that perspective, mate. Yeah, I think so. We did a good job there. I think you're there. You're the uh best person to say. We can't really say it, can we? No. But what about the culture? Yeah. No, I think we've got a great culture. I think it's a good balance of work and fun. And a bit more fun, but maybe a bit more fun, but would be alright. Your idea of fun is only one thing. You know, I was trying to organise the next commercial workshop the other day. Let me guess. No, there's a thing had to be within walking distance of Albert Stock's. No. It had to be in a mug, which we didn't have other things we were drinking at. And I was like, I'm not thinking about the drinking, I'm thinking about the actual output of the day. And all Chloe was thinking about was that's too close to another time we're drinking. I never mentioned drinking. But my point is we never mentioned the workshop either. I was just thinking about the drinking. You were literally just thinking about the drinking? Not about the work at all. So there you go. You need to book up your ideas. I've not drank in ages. How long's ages? Not last week and the weekend before. Oh, okay, there you go. That's ages apparently. Two weeks. Not even two weeks, yeah. Anyway. What's one thing that happens in the office or you hear that makes you feel like that's exactly why we've started why it's like that sort of still good feeling? Good question. That is a good question. Probably should have prepared. Oh yeah, you didn't read the brief. I think it You know what, actually I'm I'm gonna go back and sort of revisit what I said the minute ago, actually. I think when you know stuff is happening at a high standard without you being there, I think that's probably the thing that I would be most proud of almost. Do you know what I mean? Because I hear obviously we use Slack as a tool for the business, right? And you know, probably contrary to belief, I read every single Slack message that I get. I don't reply to them, right? Can't. Um but I read all of them. Uh and I'll read interactions between people and people helping but people setting standards, and I'm like, that's exactly what we wanted as a as a company. Do you know what I mean? So I'd say that for me is probably the bit. I think it is nice like when you don't have to be involved in something. Yeah. Yeah. Like there's so many things that we are involved in, you kind of get consumed with all of those. And then actually sometimes there's some uh improvements that we do in the app sometimes, and I'm like, oh when do we do this? Yeah. It kind of like goes completely under my radar, and it's that's great, right? Like seeing the improvements without actually having to be part of it. Yeah, of course. And on the app, the platform. How do you ensure the wise culture slash feel gets shown across? I think it goes to what Dan was saying earlier about as a business, and like I think it goes to the brand as well, right? We are an honest and quite straightforward that we don't the communication, the tone of voice, everything is all um and again not to talk this is talking while it's not talking sticky, but um we used to have a saying when we were at Sticky about uh making complex things simple. And that's kind of the ethos that we've always had. And coming into this, you know, onboarding and the platform that we built is a a pretty complex platform in the sense that it has so many different uh permutations of how people can use it. Um but actually it's really simple, like the the UI, um how we communicate, the words that we use is all really clear and straightforward. So that's kind of what we do there to replicate culture, I suppose. Yeah, I'd agree with that, definitely. Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. So it's clear that the culture is more than just like I say a word. Um it's like the why behind what we do at WISE. For sure, yeah. Um but moving on to the next three years. Um what does winning look like for EVA? Uh that is a good question because I think you know, you I sort of treat uh every day as you know a an opportunity to win and progress. Do you know what I mean? So I try and make my p personally every day I think to myself, what do you what did I do today? Right? I've said this to you before and other people in the team. You can only do so much, but as long as you feel that you've made a difference that day. But I think for the company, I think this comes back to the podcast that we did with Simon as well, which is I think it's really executing on all the opportunity that we've got in front of us. Yeah. We've done you know, six years of hard yards, you know what I mean? Like you know, building the technology, getting it to the place where it's flexible and robust and everything else, and you know, winning the contracts that we've won and some of the timelines for those contracts, you know, as I shared at the staff wrap-up, you know, there's been some that have been two years in the pipeline, three years in the pipeline, and they've all started to come through now and you know become a reality for the business. But you know, that was only phase one of what we wanted to achieve. There was sort of phase two. Um, and you know, we've we haven't finished phase one yet. We're not due to finish that until February, right? That's really when phase one ends. Uh, but I think for me it would be winning will look like we've executed phase two and we've seen the fruits of our labour and we've proven to ourselves uh that what we set out to do we could we can do. Yeah. Um because I think where I get I think get the most personal satisfaction, and James is definitely similar to me, like this. Um but I don't know whether I'm worse or not. Actually, I was gonna say I'm worse, but I don't know if that's the case actually, is I actually love it when people say we won't get that or we won't do that, or Jeremy, the naysayers, basically, and like you know, we had a lot of support when we started wise, but a lot of people going, Oh, you sure, and that's risky, and blah blah blah, and you know, actually I get my most satisfaction from going, ha, do you know what I mean? It comes part and parcel, I think, of um I think I'm like that as a person in general. Um, I was saying this about uh hopefully when this podcast goes out, you know, Villa are two times European champions. Um and I was saying that whilst the elation for winning it myself is going to be amazing, uh being able to go hat at other people is also part of it. Um and I think for me he is proving people wrong. And I think getting to the end of that strategy, we'll be proving it to ourselves, but also to other people. Um so that's probably what I think what we need thought to know. Yeah. I think realistically we set out to improve self-employment. We improve self-employment, right? And this is kind of just a rehash of what we said on the Founders podcast, but I it really don't feel like the mission's finished until we uh we do feel like we've done that. Obviously, we are in one sector at the moment, um but you know, i it that was never the whole plan. Um so I think like Dan said, I think if we can execute on what where we're currently at, yeah, and then get this next thousand away as well. I think that's important. Um but yeah, I think ambition-wise, like I think we are we are really ambitious people. Um and I think sometimes we need to temper those ambitions because you know, so it's always on at me, like you never really have a you never really celebrate the wins because like you're always looking at the next thing, right? Oh yeah, you both are like that actually. Yeah, I remember when obviously we signed the famous DVD contract. We signed it by the m on the Monday. Yeah. And then when we actually celebrated on the Friday, I was like, I'm over this. I remember you saying those words, yeah. I was like, I'm so over this already. I wanted to I wanted to the next thing. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, so um that's good and bad. That is actually there's a bad that's a bit of a bad trait to English. You have to, you know, appreciate what you've done and sort of accept that you know, sometimes a good job, well done. Um but like I have to try and make myself celebrate the witness more just because like I know it's good for the staff. Whereas I have to be honest, thinking like, I just want to get the next thing there. Yeah. Um we signed a a major, I won't say any names, uh, but we obviously signed a pretty major contract for us not too long ago. We haven't celebrated that an instant. Why? I don't know. But it hasn't been it's not being talked about at all. It's what we should be doing. Near we should be doing, yeah. I know what you're thinking. Let's go out on the beers. Yeah. I thought it's fine. Yeah, of course she will, yeah. Get the same hours lush. She's on the vote roll. Yeah. I don't go that often. What last time was the commercial day? Yeah, okay, yeah. Well, yeah. Meanwhile. As we continue to scatter, what's one thing you refuse to compromise on? I think everybody talks about it, I think, culture. Yeah. I think you can't and he won't don't think, well, me and Jams are here anyway, become a stuffy corporate place to work. Do you know what I mean? I just I don't think you get you you look, you wouldn't get the best out of the people that are here anyway. Um, but you wouldn't get the best out of the product and the customers wouldn't want that either. No. Do you know what I mean? I think we we do win a lot of the customers because of the way we are as people. Um so I just don't think we will we will compromise on the culture. And you know what? There has been calls for for that, I think at times, you know, to be more serious and to and I think we have like this year in particular, you know, we had to do a bit of a reset just on standards and just a balance, isn't it? It is the balance making sure we get that balance right, because there are things that you need to do. We we hold a lot of data, making sure that's secure, all of that kind of stuff. That we we take all of that side of things really seriously. Um but you know, there's no reason why you can't work hard and play hard, right? So I think from our perspective, like Dan said, I don't think we can let the culture slip. Yeah. Uh for the it's for the benefit of the whole company, basically, the the culture that we've built. So improving on that to slip away. No. And I put this question, and I actually don't know if there isn't if there is is a risk, but I put what's the biggest risk to wise right now? I know what it is. Focus or lack of focus. Absolutely. Yeah. Because we're always it's it's always possible for us to do something else or to do something extra. Um and I think me and James probably sit here actually and are you know critical of one person in particular for this. Um and he knows who he is, right? Uh James is holding his hands up, he said, not me, right? Don't bring him into it. Don't bring me into it. Yeah. Um however, uh, I'm I'm saying that, but we are just as bad. But the difference is we're so much in the day today that we don't get necessarily not being martyrs here, but we don't necessarily get as much time to sit there and go, what if? Yeah. But if we did sit there and go, what if we'd go, oh, wouldn't it be great if we did this and wouldn't it be great if we did that? Because there's so many things that it would be great to do, um, but you can't do everything. And I think our thing is, you know, we went through it yesterday, and I think we laid out what seven sort of key strategic things that we have to achieve in the next five months. Yes. And some of them we're already doing, some of them are near. But they are like focused things. It's not like we need to a random example. Well, put it this way, we obviously have plans to launch into another industry, um, but we could sit there and go, let's launch into six industries. Yeah, um, and that would be the wrong decision because we know we can't digest that amount of work, and you know, it's impossible for us to to to uh for the business to scale in that many directions. But one we potentially could. Um but it is a credit to the business, right? Like as much as that's a risk, it's a credit that we've built this business that can go in so many different directions. A lot of businesses don't have that ability to go, oh well, if that doesn't work, we'll just pivot over here. Whereas actually we've built something where you know we are a technology business, we want to focus on the technology. Um, but we also have this dynamic where we could go, well, actually, we could focus more on marketing or we could look at data, or there's loads of different things and and different avenues that we could go down. But like Dan said, I think having that focus, uh, we've got the drive, it's just having the focus to stick to the plan and make sure that we execute on it. That's the completely agree. Yeah, and I think when we first started the business, that was our biggest problem, I would say, was focus for the first year. Do you know what I mean? It was we spent six months, I reckon, debating what we should do. Do you know what I mean? There was a lot of business plans. The famous business plan that nearly killed us. I don't know that we were gonna talk about the most I know one of the questions in a minute is like the most stressful time. Um but I've got two. But that I don't know if that's number one actually. Um but yeah, we did a the first business plan that we ever did. Uh I actually wasn't sweating like actual physically. And I don't weird things aside, I don't sweat easily. I'm not some of my brags into a sweat very very often. Uh but I had beads of sweat on my head, uh, and there was no need. What a role while writing. Just because it was oh yeah, let's not get into PTSD. PT definitely PTSD territory, yeah. Um the next segment is five plus one years, five plus one insights. Why are we going to follow? Oh no, five plus one. Okay, fine, stick with five plus one. Is it confusing? No, not really. Why wasn't you question earlier three plus one or three minus one? Yeah. Too much now. That's that is confusing for me. Over the six years, we're going to talk about the six insights you've learnt. Okay. So, Dan, this one's for you. Okay. What's one thing you've learnt about managing people that you didn't believe six years ago? Hmm. I mean, managing you's been on the trend for that for a certain. Uh what's one thing? It's hard to that's a that is a difficult question because it's I've got to put myself back almost six years and think about how I've sort of thought about the world then. Um rather than I think something that I've learned in the last six years, something that I've definitely doubled down on is something that again we've got to love harping back here. I'm talking about one of another one of my old bosses, uh, shout out to Dean. Um he says something to me, and I've definitely doubled down on this even more so as we've grown, which is trusting people until they let you down. Um so you know, when we hire someone here, we we don't hire people willy-nilly, so they come in to do an important job, and especially actually not especially, because if you're on the app, it's maybe even more critical, but we give people a lot of responsibility to start with, and I think I've had to learn and myself accept that I've got to trust someone, hire them to do a job, trust the hiring process and actually trust them until they let me down. And then if they let me down, then obviously it's a different story, right? But trust them and allow them to breathe and do their own job and not constantly because there is a temptation when you're a perfectionist and control freak, you know, which I think me and James are both borderline perfectionists and control freaks to an extent, right? You know, and it's just just saying it is what it is, um and uh to to get yourself involved in everything all the time, yeah. So actually, you know what? I'm probably answering the question better as I'm going because I'm thinking about it a bit more, but I would say yeah, trusting people uh and allowing them to do the jobs they're hard to do. I think it's the easy thing I've had to learn and accept the most. Do you know what I mean? And even not even actually the people that necessarily report to me directly, my colleagues as well. Do you know what I mean? Not getting involved. What did I say to you um not too long ago? Um I said don't get involved. I said I don't stress about things I can't control. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So I did say that to you, didn't I? Right. So she's the worst person to say that towards what was that in customer. Oh yeah, uh we won't go into it. But I could sit here and I could stress about so many things that happens in the that happens in the business, right? But I I think to myself, when I'm awake in the middle of the night, which I am for now, and I'm stressing about something, I think, what can I do about this? And if I can't do something about it, I think to myself, right, I've got to just move on. Yeah. If I can do something about it, I think right, this is exactly what I'm gonna do in the morning, and then I go soundly back to sleep. So yeah. Trust. I like that. Yeah. Nice. My question for you, Jay's, I'm actually gonna change. Um, okay. Don't know, yeah. So all features anyway, so it's good. All features are great, but what feature did you all features are great? Just from what is features. Yeah. What feature that you put out that you was thought was good but ended up being like an absolute game changer for clients? Good question. I mean on Tim 2 there's a cop-out one to always say it's always the next feature. My favourite feature is always the next one that we release, right? Um But I I would have to say from a from a sales point of view. I just can't wait. I want to answer this question. I think it would probably be customisable evidence. When we release customisable evidence, I think that was us moving away from uh the environment that we initially had. I think for me that was a bit of a watershed moment where the platform before that was built entirely under some preconceptions, probably, of what we assumed the main contractors would want. Yeah. And actually, it kind of changed the thinking of the product team and the business in general to be more of a generic, like we are going to be more product-driven, or actually the fact that we've made this customizable and allowed the salespeople and the account managers to to do things that it was restrictive before. I think that really changed the way that we thought about the product entirely. So I think that is probably the watershed feature for me. Um and then, but like I say, I think pretty much all of the feat like I'm always thinking I said five minutes ago, I'm always thinking of that the the next thing right. So what were you gonna say? I mean I'm intrigued. No, you know what, actually, I think it's interesting because mine's actually not mine's actually not a feature, I guess, because I think I know for me there was one decision that we made, which I think was the best decision we ever made, which was the onboarding configurator. Oh yeah. Which isn't really a feature, that's why I sort of stuck myself. Yeah, but it's not necessarily a feature, but without it, what we do wouldn't be possible. Um so the ability to go in and set an onboarding configuration per main contractor and how we've evolved that to include the roles and all that sort of stuff was just it it if we hadn't made the decision originally though to put the onboarding configurator in and say, and we'd have just gone everyone on boards exactly the same way, God knows what unravelling we'd have to have done on that. It would have been crazy. It would have been crazy. I don't know. I mean, obviously Salmon Keyes, who makes me like because obviously he's been here a long time as well, man. And obviously he he was after onboarding configurator, but he'll say, Oh, do you remember when I had to try and sell the system and I I had to go, well, you know that document you want, or you can't have it? Do you need that? He's like, Yeah, do you mean but now obviously we're in a completely different world and it's so much easier to go out and uh and you know it's not about selling actually, it's really refreshing to be able to help your customers in just a better way than you did the day before, the week before, Jeremy. I think at the moment we're just releasing that the feature for the unavailability of love that yeah, and the it's just great, isn't it? Jeremy. I just showed a customer, just showed a customer this morning, one of our biggest customers. Uh, the unavailability. Uh so anyone's asking questions about, oh, can I put this into here and will it do this and one of that? Yeah, it'll do all those things, and it's just it is great. That's a satisfaction. Oh. Rewarding. Rewarding. Oh, oh. My next set of questions for anyone, so feel free. Could be. Yep. But I think this is one you're getting excited for, is this well, this stressful one. Yeah. What was the single most stressful 24 hour period of the last six years? And what did it take? 24 hours. I mean, there's one, and I can't remember what time period it was over, but it was it was every 24 hours in this particular week was really stressful, which is when we first launched the app. Um, so if you remember, it was Go Services. We're still a customer now, Shadow Go Services, um, who were the first customer to use the Y system and app. Um, and as always, with technology, I wouldn't say that um it happened exactly as we planned. Um and to say that we were uh working at the last minute to get it live would probably be an understatement. And obviously, from my perspective, I have no input on the actual code. Uh so I'm just like, how are we doing? How are you doing? How we doing? And I got the customer calling me, and I'm looking at my phone and I'm thinking, I'm gonna get destroyed if I answer this phone, right? Uh and I remember getting a proper dressing down. Uh so yeah, that was that that you know, he answers the aging question earlier. Yeah. I think if I've aged like let's say seven or eight years in the last six years, that was two of them. Exactly, two of them were that week, right? Because I was so stressed that week, it was yeah, it was really stressful. Yeah. Uh but it forced us to get the app out and but the problem was when you work in the tight timelines, you you cut corners. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So it wasn't ideal, but Yeah. I think because we had that customer, we were we launched the app earlier than we should have done. I think that was in that April. It was in April, yeah. And then basically it took us to the September to kind of go back and make sure we were still doing that we tied up all the loose ends and that kind of stuff. Um but I think if we're talking about 24 hour period, I would say um there was The first time we had a payment issue when the when the uh payments went live. I think it was a Friday night, there was lots of people needing to be paid, and the clients didn't really see too much of it because um yeah the drivers weren't paid when they woke up, but within like I think two hours, all of the drivers were paid. But those two hours were incredibly stressful for the whole account management team, for the payments engineers, families in between everything. Oh, I was on hold there as well. So I don't even remember. Yeah. We've had a we'd have we'd have a few moments like that where things have been down on networks. And I remember a particular customer had two issues two weeks in a row. I remember that one, yeah. Yeah, and I was in London with everyone other than James at a meeting, and to say that meeting got tense uh was to actually uh um the chairman at the time actually had to say, Right, everyone, sit down and calm down, uh because he almost got to punch up terror territory, like there was blame being thrown uh and all sorts, and yeah, blame got put in my direction, uh and you know, a wife just now got defensive was probably an understatement. Uh so yeah, uh yeah, I think I think whenever there's any type of small issue right as around payments, it's always stressful. Yeah. Uh because money's really a motive. But I think um I think we do a good job of making sure those things from a client perspective goes through as quickly as possible. But then like Dan says, there's always the uh the post mortem afterwards, uh making sure you can clean it all up properly and make sure like getting the drivers their money is one thing, but actually making sure that it doesn't happen again and all that kind of stuff is a is a different thing. I haven't said this for a while, but it's still true. One million percent. Um it's definitely true. This statement. The most important thing we do is pay drivers. Yeah, it comes above everything. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like it literally comes above everything that we do. If we don't pay the drivers, then the knock-on effect that it has uh is you know is catastrophic. Do you know what I mean? So and I mean we have come on leaps and bounds in terms of the reliability of the panic. The stability of it, you know, for the last three and a half years, probably. We it's been the sturdy it's been probably the sturdiest part of the platform. I just hate I hate saying these things. They've already been paid. Everyone's paid, everyone's been paid. Shout out. But yeah, just even talking about this just feels really. Yeah, I think we've put a lot of things in place over the years to make sure, and uh, you know, our partnership with Modular, etc., is has has really come on leaked and bounds, and I think it is really a it's a it's probably the most sturdy part of the platform as far as I'm concerned. Um and it's one of the things that I don't really have. I don't I'm not quite like many. I'm just I'm talking about it. I'm like, ah the thing is what you know what this is great for if customers watch this for it. If they ever think man, we don't I was I say this, I'll get obviously I'm I'm good at portraying my passion. If anyone ever thinks that we don't care about these issues, they are so wrong. Yeah. Because I will be absolute I'll if I'll just say about the sweating earlier, f me. I'll go straight to sweats. If there's a payment issue, right? Nothing is more important. Uh it really is so yeah, uh sorry. I'll relax now. There isn't an issue We'll move on to the next question. What has been the most surprising thing you've learnt about self-employment or the logistics community? The most one thing. Surprising. Surprising. Good good question. I mean, look, uh James and I knew nothing about logistics coming into it. Or self-employment. Or self-employment, uh either. Um there's been a lot of things that have that have surprised me. Um what's the most surprising thing? I uh would say the most uh surprising thing, and I'm just trying to think about how to articulate this, but we were saying this when we had the podcast with Lee from On the Tools. You know, he was talking about how construction's the hidden public service, right? Yeah. Yeah. And actually I think that's probably the thing that surprised me the most is just how important logistics is and actually how much goes uh how much effort goes in the background of it. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So if you go and watch, you know, an Amazon depot do a launch, right? It's actually quite almost like borderline poetic how it happens. Do you know what I mean? They do their launch, they come in, they go on the launch pads, the vans get loaded in the cages, then they get waved off, do you know what I mean? Like the whole experience of it is just so military. Yeah. Um, and you know, all you get when you're not in this world is a parcel to your door, right? You don't get everything that happens before that and how hard the the delivery drivers have to work. Yeah. They worked, some of them are worked really hard. Um, and I think you know the blood, sweating tears that goes into getting people their parcels on time, and it's a pure it's almost become like a you know a human right to get your parcel on time. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like you you're mad if you don't. Yeah, isn't it worse than a delay delayed parcel? No, there isn't. Um, but you know, I think I've got a lot of respect for the people that actually deliver them um because I know that they ain't just delivering your parcel, they ain't picking it up from depot and they ain't going to boots and picking it up and dropping it off. They're going to a depot at 6 plug in the morning, and they've probably done a hundred slots before they get to you. Um and you know, there's a there's a lot of stress. So I think for me, I think it's all the hard work that goes in behind the scenes. I think that's probably the most surprising thing. But that's coming from as a complete novice, you know, there'd be because there'd be people who are just going, of course, there's lots of hard work that goes into it. What do you think? It's all pixies and fairies, but I didn't have an appreciation before it before. I think I think on the self-employment side again, this is more of a naive thing for me. I don't think I really realised the scale of how many people are self-employed. Um, you know, especially like you would just assume that Amazon's drivers or DPD's drivers are all employed. Yeah. Like being really like I never knew anything about the industry at all. So I think just assuming that all of these people are employed, um, he was a real eye-opener, I suppose, seeing that, you know, most of the big delivery companies, most of uh and even beyond that, like in other sectors, there's millions of people that are self-employed. And you know, that was really the eye-opener for me coming into this. And it's again the ethos of we improve self-employment is to the opportunity to affect so many people. Um, but even coming into it, I didn't realise how many people we would be affected by aiming that as our target. So I suppose that was the most shocking thing for me, I suppose. Six million people self-employed in the UK. There you go. It's a lot of people. It's 15% of the workforce. How do you know that? What? How do you know that? What do you mean, how do I know that? I'm just asking. I mean how do I know that? Um this is my industry. General knowledge. Yeah, general knowledge. Yeah. Where do you learn general knowledge? Where do you learn general knowledge, Claire? Yeah. I didn't breathe this. Do you mean I am I'm for the self-employed people? What is one? Non-negotiable that still drives you both every morning. I know my answer for you to actually. Well, what I would tell us our answer. Wow. Wow. I thought it was gonna be a really nice answer for the answer. Okay, let me move on. The people you know what I think non-negotiable is for me. Um I think what drives me is just not settling for second best. Do you know what I mean? I've never as an individual wanted to settle for second best. You know, I've mentioned name-checked a lot of people today. Yeah, but loads of shout outs. Doing loads of shout outs as a shout out. But again, uh one of uh Morning Jones' old bosses, Ian, he would say, you know, if you you're not first, you're last. Do you know what I mean? That was his ethos. Uh he's a you know, uh definitely a a born winner. Um bit like Simon Hills, actually, just everything just works out for him. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, he does, he must be great. Yeah, I've always said, you know, my thing about Simon Hills was you know, if you fell into a a snake pit, he'd come out wearing snakes and shoots. Do you know what I mean? That he's just Salmon Hills, do you know what I mean? If you put his hand in the air, catch a fiver, that he's just him. Right. But does he really look at it? Um I think I think look, I don't believe in luck, right? I I think you've got to put yourself in the right place, do you know what I mean? Yeah. Uh but so as a knack of putting yourself always in the right place, do you know what I mean? I think you just life just happens around something. Yeah, uh but that's a good way of putting it. That is a good way of putting it, yeah. But I think for me, yeah, it's not settling, do you know what I mean? Like you know, obviously obviously you know me, right? I'm like, right come on, let's do it, what we're doing today, do you know what I mean? Let's let's get it, let's do it, you know what I mean? And I think there's the day that I lose that feeling. You always say this. I always say this, I won't be here, do you know what I mean? So that's my sort of non-negotiable yeah. I think mine's similar, like it's the same lines, right? But it's always expecting I want to do the best I can, yeah. And I expect everybody else that works with me to try and do the best that they can. Um so you know, it's just those high expectations and and making sure that we are making a difference. Like I didn't I didn't come into this to just do it, right? Like it was to make a change and make a difference, and I think um that's what I expect from everyone in the business. I like it feels very motivational today in this. Just isn't it? Yeah, very difficult. I like it. I was just thinking I'm ready to go and get it now. Yeah. Last question. Get a Joe and Juice after you get a Joan and the juice. But you probably will you know what? I'm gonna be honest with you, I probably will get a Joe and Juice after this. Yeah. And you know him by name, but Joe and the juice. Oh yeah. Yeah. Both of us are now in point. Yeah, James has even caught me up. I've been knowing name and there for a long time. Yeah, Dan was Dan was their number one customer, probably still. No, it's just all right, Dan, not they know it's me. I'm gonna go to the counter. Yeah, yeah. You went good, you went in there together the other week and there was a lot. Oh, you're right, boy. Uh oh. Too much. Too much. It's not being a regular at a pub. You get like you guessed the pub. I'm not an alcoholic. Alcoholic, boy. Uh what are you having today? Yeah, another another week around vodka. Yeah, apples blue cherts. I'm not a vodka. Yeah, well, anyway. She can't drink vodka. No. She's terrible. Yeah. Um what's one decision that felt incredibly risky but's paid off? I know the answer to this. I know the answer. Oh. I'm interested to know what your answer is now that you think you know the answer, because I think I know the answer as well. I know, I know what my answer is. Yeah, okay. My answer is the pivot to network supporting networks. I think it felt I know it's hard to say it felt risky, but it was a bit of an unknown, you know, going into saying to ourselves, right, we're gonna go and try and win parcel networks and operate at that higher level. Um, and I know what actually I think it's I think going into it wasn't the risky part. I think investing in building the technology was the risky part. Because I mean when we went into it, I mean we didn't know what we were doing, we just made it up on the spot. Do you know what I mean? We were like, oh, let's have to give it to give it a go, and that's why we failed, like, because we didn't plan it through properly. Yeah. I think actually you're sitting there and going, no, we're gonna invest into building network view and all that associated technology. I think it was a risk because I think if it hadn't worked out, uh then you know it'd have left the it would have left the hole in the business for certain. Um, because you know, we spent a lot of cash and invested a lot of resource into building that side of the platform. So yeah, I'd say it was um it was a calculated risk. Yeah. But if it hadn't gone right, you know, I don't think we'd be recording a podcast. I don't think the I don't think the business would be still here. Yeah. Um I don't think I don't think the I don't think the the business was never up for it. Yeah. Um but I think our ability to grow would definitely have it would have set us back because we would have had to restart, basically. So I think it was a gamble that paid us. I think that's definitely the biggest risk the business has taken. Uh my answer wasn't necessarily about the business though. Oh, okay. My answer was biggest risk we've taken with wise is joining in the first place. That's what I was thinking of. Um, you know, me and Dan handed in our notice we said on the title. I can't believe that one day before lockdown um to join a business that wasn't really a business at that point, right? Wasn't trading when we joined it. Wasn't trading, uh wasn't called wise. Um so you know, I think that was that was the biggest risk for us personally. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah um in this in this adventure. Um but yeah, the biggest risk to the business was definitely that uh that decision and luckily it paid off. Yeah, it was a big it was a big decision to quit to join Black Tars House though. Do you know what I mean? And here you are. Yeah, got back. And about the past got back yourself, yeah. I mean I I I I'd done it previously uh as well. Quit another job to start a business. Oh really? That was my uh second go round. And when I think back to the first time, um I was so stupid. Um but you worked out in the long run. That's why this whole six year thing, as I said to you, and I'm gonna come on to this in a minute. In the meantime's worked together together eleven years. And I keep forgetting that. Yeah, you said it's templess one. He did it with the right person this time. Yeah, you but you are yeah, yeah, well yeah, well, that was a that was uh some shade for him and I didn't mean it as shade, I'm just backing myself. Yeah, you know, you are right, mate. Yeah, definitely worked out better the second time. Yeah, definitely. It worked out alright. Worked out alright, yeah, yeah. They do, yeah. Last question. What's their red flag as a colleague? Red flag? What do you mean? Red flag. As a colleague? What do you mean as a colleague? Like working with them, what's their one red flag? You mean when you know they're in a bad mood or something? No, but like a red flag, like a warning sign or something. A warning sign? Like my red flag. What's bad about her? As a colleague. I'm just trying to what? A red flag, like what will you answer? What's my red flag from your perspective? Um She'll say you've got about 20 minutes. No, no, yeah, I don't know why I'm asking this. I would say you Oh god. Oh no, she couldn't say anything. I would say probably how I'm just thinking of something at the minute. You you stick to your guns. That's a red flag. At times I think yeah. Oh, okay. Alright. Or you don't see my point of view. I would say for me it's uh emotional. Oh, in my heart on my sleeve, yeah. That's bad. Yeah, because like you you need to be you need to be quite level sometimes, right? And I can go one way or the other because I'm I can be quite emotional. Yeah. Um for ourselves. I actually meant for each other, but that was very reflective. I like that. Oh there you go. Um taking inspiration from I mean I've done I've done much better because I did used to get emotional a lot more than I do now. Uh I think I've died down my emotionalness for the last couple of years. Yours comes out in like fits and start. Yeah, like if I have a if I have a if I have a uh a moment, then it's uh you know, I'm I'm I'm really mad. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So but it doesn't happen as frequently as it used to. The crazy eyes the crazy eyes as Simon Hills calls them. Uh when when my eyes go like that, because I'm just like I'm fuming. Uh you know, and we don't have to deal with the person anymore that used to give me the real anger. Uh and again I'm I won't say his name, um, but you know, a lot of the clients will know straight away what I'm talking about, you really get the fire going. Um so uh if I was being critical of myself, um like James was which I think was quite a nice moment. Um I don't know, just I'm just really well balanced overall, I guess. Um that's a bloody red flag. Cockiness. Yeah. Cockiness, yeah. I don't think I'm cocky, I think I'd be too harsh to say that I'm cocky. Uh um too humble. My problem at least What? You are humble, you're not red flag! Red flag. I don't know, it's hard to say it about yourself, isn't it? What would you say, James? Yuck Uh I would say that maybe I actually am too forgiving. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do forgive and forget. I live a either real forgive and forget. And not everything should be forgiven. Um I just can't be bothered. Do you know what I mean? I just can't I don't hold grudges. Yeah. I think you I think you I think that is one. I think for you you uh That's one, but here's another. No, I think it's along the the line. What did you say about me? What was your thing about me? Red flag? Um What was your red flag the minute ago? I like how I'm getting one from each of us. I can't remember, but I think what was it? Probably got a few up there. Yeah. Um controlling chase editors. No. Oh, you stick to your guns. No, I don't I don't know why. Stick to your guns. Stick to your guns. Stick to your guns. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, stick to your guns. Yeah, well as sometimes the bigger picture. What? Oh, I don't see the bigger picture, that's what you're saying. Wow. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying I'm just thinking of the current in that head what I'm thinking of. Yeah, I know what you're thinking of right now, and you've been harping on about it to me for months. Right, so now you've made a decision. You're uh my one for you is you know how what did you just say for yourself? Too forgiving. To forgive you. Yeah, I think it's along those lines, right? Like you'll waste too much time on things that you know you're not gonna do. Just because it's like uh I I can't be asked to have this argument. I'll just listen and like Yeah, that's true, yeah. That is true. I will humour people, even though no, I'm never gonna this is a bit like the stick to the guns thing, right? You know, you'll harp onto me, you're wasting your own breath because I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do anyway. Yeah. Uh but I'll I'll humour you and let you talk even though what you're saying is is is irrelevant. Like, because I've worked with Dan for so long, I know when he's already made up his mind about something, yeah. So then I'm just like, there's no point in talking to him now. Yeah. Like but people that haven't worked with him as long will keep talking to him, thinking that they're gonna change his mind, and he's like, Well, actually, like, unless you've got a really good point, he'll see he'll see if you've got a really good point, and this is where we we've got a good relationship where I know sometimes not to carry on talking about it, and then I'll find something and I'll be the lot that's the reason actually, and I'll go back to him and I'll talk to him and we'll we'll we'll come to it. But some people will just go to him constantly and be like, Well, this is what we need to do, and he won't change his mind. Um but there's a lot of people that do that in the business, and I think you entertain it too much. Yeah, you're alright, yeah. Yes, you are right, yeah. I need to I think reflection for me today is stop entertaining people that just don't have good ideas. I think I should stink from a gun bar. I think that's I think that's what James is saying. Oh yeah, I I love the fact like talking about these. If it was one person that used to work with us and you would be there like Yeah, and you'd be like, they'd have they've always got ideas. They'd have ten ideas, and one of them would be good. I've got to listen to ten to get to the one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You actually mentioned this person indirectly today as well. Uh but he's very indirect. Uh you won't remember why you mentioned the I do because I know what who Janji's talking about. Yeah, but yeah, ten ideas. I think what I actually said was ten ideas, nine go in the bin, and one's alright, but then have the one that's alright, you need three of them for actually actually so it means 30 ideas to get to one actual idea you do anything with. Yeah. Uh but they just had a lot of verbal or diarrhea of ideas, basically. He was he would always call them like the word that he'd used to describe them as well was dross. And I'd just like you'd have n ten ideas, nine of them were dross. They're like, yeah, that's that great word. Dross is a great word. Yeah, I like dross, yeah. Dross, yeah, it's a good word. I don't know who you're on about. Yeah, you will in a minute. We'll finish the work. Oh, we are finished! Yeah. And we've done some five plus one reflecting my body. I feel like I've been attacked actually quite a bit today. I mean, I don't know how much of this will make it to the actual episode, but I think people watching will probably think that, you know, I'm I should call like the Samaritans or something. Wow. I know that was a bit zero to a hundred. Yeah, no, you've really gone for me today. Give me a red flag to make you feel better. What? I know I've got loads. Yeah, you have got you have got loads. We don't even need to give We don't need to say anything to you, do we? You know, you would give your own. You know you're an overthinker. Yeah, that is probably your biggest red flag, yeah, overthinker. Yeah. But you're probably my best advice, Jimmy, is listen to me the first time because the amount of like three times this week, right there. Yeah, but and I've been right about the thing that I said to you the first time, all three times. Uh so you know, I'd take that snippet of me saying that listen to me the first time and just I'd add that plane. That's all I'm saying on your desk. Yeah. Wait, let me overthink this. Yeah. It's a good podcast, that was Chloe. Well done. Thank you. Well done, Claire. I enjoyed that. Thank you. Melvin James. Didn't that'd be funny. Congratulations, six years.