Episode 15: What it takes to launch your own logistics business

We sit down with Rob Galkoff, owner of Spotted Bee, who has built a successful logistics business from the ground up. From his previous career to unexpectedly launching his own operation during the Coronavirus pandemic, Rob shares his story behind getting started in logistics - and what it truly takes to turn an idea into a functioning, growing business.

This episode is packed with real insights, practical advice, and honest reflections for anyone thinking about starting or scaling a logistics business - Rob is the person to hear from, a real business owner with first-hand experience.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

We probably do 90% of the city centre now, either in the vans or on the bikes. I'm managing a fleet, I'm I'm recruiting, managing the drivers, we're managing what's on road and we're managing the relationship and then working with the different suppliers that bring it all together and make it happen.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

When did you start feeling like a logistics business owner? When did you get that sort of was it when you first started launching routes or I haven't got there yet?

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Had a varied career in retail and marketing and consultancy. Yeah. So I'd work with big companies like Marks and Spencer, Disney.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

People have no idea when it comes to running a logistics company how much you've got to think about the ball bearings on a bike.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Yeah. This is how you deliver using these vehicles in this sort of terrain. It works really, really well, and then you can replicate that from city to city. We know that area. We've got the skill set for really hard geography, and we know how to solve the problems.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

And uh you become like a cycle line aficionado now then. No, I'm not amateur engaged working with the right broker on the insurance side as well. Yeah. Because you work with HRIB. With HRIB, yeah, like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

That's really unbelievable. Yeah. That has made a massive difference. Yeah. You know, Flock is brilliant. They've got so much uh safety information on the portal that we have with them that we can see each fan every day.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

How quick did you sort of start and then go, actually, this is impossible to do on my own? Six weeks before we launched. Seriously? Rod, thanks so much for joining us. Pleasure. Thank you for having me. No problem. Uh so should we kick off a little bit about you, you know, your background, how you sort of got into this and what you were doing before logistics?

SPEAKER_01 1:48

So uh I had a varied career in retail and marketing and consultancy. Yeah. So I'd worked with big companies like Marks and Spencer, Disney. Nice. Um, went in the management consultancy route for a couple of years, uh, went and lived in the States with the family, set up business over there, and then came back, uh, carried on with the consultancy work and then the pandemic hit. And I was all of a sudden sat at home twiddling my thumbs, uh, lost all my consultancy clients overnight because no one wants to consultant uh when the pandemic hits. Yeah, of course. And I couldn't get out to the states to run the US business. So I was doing that from home. Okay. And then I just saw online this advert for Amazon uh looking for DSPs. I thought, okay, give it a go, could be interesting. Not really got any logistics experience, but had the business experience managing people, uh, and I thought, give it a go. Yeah, see what happens. And the process went quite quickly. Yeah. Um, yeah, within a couple of weeks, um, I was going through the interview uh programme with them, finding out more about it, um, and then got offered it probably within about four weeks. Wow. Yeah, quick. So it was really, really quick. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

And that was six years ago.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Yeah, that would have been March, April 2020. Wow. That started on that. It's crazy. Uh did the training probably the May-June sort of time.

SPEAKER_04 3:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Uh, and then launched it in August. What's a trying look like? Rob, what's what does trying look like? It was all online. I think we spent a week online because that's the only way you could create anything face to face at that stage. So there was a cohort of maybe eight of us that did learning about what it was to be at DSP, learnt about the um the service partners that were on there, and then I actually went into a station. Yeah. Um, I said, before I actually embark on this, I want to go into a station.

SPEAKER_04 3:52

Okay, nice.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Uh went over to Sheffield, okay, uh, masked up, yeah. Um, saw Ed over there, yeah. Uh saw how he was doing it. I thought, I can't do that. Ed was my inspiration. Yeah. Um, but I thought, no, actually I I can do it. Yeah. And uh it's just using different skills and honing those different skills. Yeah. Um and then I spent quite a long time between the training and actually launching, setting up a huge amount of the auditing side of things. Okay. Um, auditing it is still very big with Amazon. Yeah. Um, but it was huge then. And it was almost just setting up the documents, the contracts, yeah, that we needed to have the policies that needed to be in place. And it was quite good that I I wasn't in another job, yeah. Uh, and the pandemic was there, so we're all working from home. Cool. So I was really able to focus on setting that side of the business up, which is actually really good, yeah. Um, because it is important and it it was key to have those disciplines in place, yeah, ready for when we launched the business. Um for sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

So you you you launched in the in the March twins.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Well, so yeah, we we we got it in the the March-April sort of time, yeah, did the training probably May-June and then launched actually in August.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

Oh, okay. You launched in August.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Launched in August, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

What were those first sort of few weeks, months?

SPEAKER_01 5:18

It was really bizarre. It was it was like an escapism. I was able to leave home, uh able to go into a work environment and see real people from two meters, you could still see them.

SPEAKER_04 5:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Um, and it was nice to actually interact with people again. Yeah, and it it was exciting. Yeah, we're starting to interview people, yeah. Um, setting up the business, starting to build a team, but it was still an unknown. Yeah. It it was okay, these beautiful gleaming vans that weren't damaged arrived. Yeah, yeah. Different story now, yeah. Different story now, yeah, yeah. That'll come later on in this talk, no doubt. Um, and um you know, we were receiving the vans and then launch day happened uh late August. Uh, and I remember that the first five vans went out en route, yeah, taking the picture of everybody wearing the masks and sort of like two metres apart and going out on the routes. And you know, nursery routes were very different in those days. I think there were 50% of a full route, and even a full route was nothing like it is these days. True, yeah. Uh I remember welcoming one of the drivers back at the end of the day, he said, Rob, I I need to go home and soak my feet now.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

It's a strenuous job, isn't it? It's highly active. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, people don't realise that bit of it. Uh it's it's really interesting, right? Because that's obviously when you launched um your business at one exact same time we started uh started WISE, uh yeah, move from GoDrive over to sort of building the Wise brand. Yeah. Um, but you know, we were exactly the same. It was like pandemic, you know, we didn't really know what was going to happen with logistics and whatever else, but they become a real public service, didn't they, during that time? Because you couldn't get anything without a delivery driver, could you for a while?

SPEAKER_01 7:06

But we we rammed up really quickly, yeah. And it was much easier to recruit drivers than yeah, we're getting highly skilled people, but we're we're on furlane and thought, right, I can earn some extra money here. Yeah. Um, and it was easy to drive around, there was no traffic, yeah. Everybody was in, um, and demand was going up.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Yeah. I think that I think that really helped Amazon at the time as well, because that first uh sort of few cohorts of DSP owners, yeah, you know, lots of them are still around now, they got the cream of the crop, really. Because they've got like people like yourselves who are ex you know management consultants and whatever else, people that probably wouldn't traditionally have thought to themselves as starting a logistics business. You would never have thought about it. No, of course not. Um so they got some some really great business owners, and I think you know, it is something that you know I wouldn't say they've struggled with um since then, uh, but you know, definitely wouldn't have been as easy for them either. Yeah. Because they had their choice of business owners. You had your choice of drivers. Yeah. The vehicles were the commodity, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Um there were plenty of vehicles. There were plenty of vehicles. That where Amazon was at the time is that that they'd launched the program 12 months beforehand, yeah. And they must have ordered a whole load of vans in anticipation of growing. Yeah. I I don't think they ever thought they would grow quite as quickly as they actually did. No. Um, but at least they had those vans uh in place to be able to do it. Yeah, caution. And that was brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

And you said you grew quickly, right? What does that actually look like? So obviously five routes on your first day, you know, that peak that year was. So by peak we were at 40 routes.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Wow. Yeah, we were massive. That is true. Um and we'd also taken on an initiative in the Manchester depot. Yeah. Um, that we preloaded the vans through the night.

SPEAKER_04 8:54

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Yeah, so um they literally by six o'clock in the morning, those vans were full ready to go out. Really? So which one were you waving then on in that? Six o'clock. Six o'clock in the morning. Yeah, six six thirty. Wow. So we we were parking all the drivers off site, yeah. They had coaches bringing them in, yeah. Uh, and we had 40 vans actually on the the yard ready for them to go. So they weren't picking the vans up from the off-site car park. Okay, they were literally picking them up from the Amazon depot. Really? And they were going out, and it was brilliant. But they were home way before lunchtime. Yeah, cool. But all the roads are dead at that time as well, right? So they were dead. Yeah, um, and uh the the roots weren't huge because the volume that was coming in through the night was the first part of the volume, so it's much smaller. Yeah. So they probably only had 80 to 100 stops on there throughout the whole of Peak.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

Like half of what it is now, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:52

And it was was an absolute dream for these guys just to go out. And the depot needed it um because of the social distancing. Yeah. They you know if they could get 40 routes out before anyone else even turned up and before they started staging everything, yeah, it was so much easier for them. Uh and that depot was the largest depot in the world.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

Was it?

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Yeah, over that peak. Really? They did the most volume that they New York had previously had it and they beat New York hands down. You wouldn't think it, would you? Uh but yeah, but it was purely little things like that that they could get that that first wave out.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

That is that is mad. I didn't know that. That's great. Yeah, uh yeah, that's a that's a super early uh sort of lifetime, isn't it? Yeah, that's probably unheard of now, isn't it? Well they couldn't do it.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

So yeah, customers were still in bed. Yeah, cool. So they were literally just leaving the parcels and the blue bins on the doorsteps, and everyone was happy with that. Yeah, so we were notifying people that it was there, and customers were happy that the parcels were there first thing in the morning. Yeah. Um, and they were well on the way. Love that.

SPEAKER_04 10:57

Yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Yeah, and um uh I'm going off scripts a little bit here. Or I'm asking you questions, you were preferred for that's just what I did, wasn't it? So I surprise people. Uh but of course not coming for logistics. I guess that first few months would have felt, you know, like a bit a bit sort of fish out fish out of water almost. When did you start feeling like yeah, a logistics business owner? When did you get that sort of was it when you first started launching routes or haven't got there yet?

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Uh okay, well, yeah, no, it's it it was easier because Amazon take care of a lot of it for you. So you get the routes that they're all in cages, they're all ordered, yeah, you you know where to put them in the van. Yeah. So from that side of it, morning's relatively easy. Yeah. Then the routes all on the device, so the driver knows where to go, what to do, yeah, etc. etc. So you you're more managing your drivers and Amazon. Of course. And it's that side of it. So it I'm not I never really class myself as a real logistics person because I'm not it's not like I'm planning those routes. Yeah. I'm I'm managing a fleet, I'm I'm recruiting, managing the drivers, we're managing what's on road, and we're managing the relationship, yeah, and then working with the different suppliers that bring it all together and make it happen.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Now that is you are right. I mean, look, I obviously I've spent a lot of time dealing with other parcel networks, and I was actually talking about this last week to someone. Amazon's operation um in terms of actually getting vehicles out of the depots is is incredible. Yeah, it's um right, it's actually totally smooth to be fair. You might complain, but it's smooth. It's nowhere near like no one else gets near them in terms of that that that sort of depot experience, you know, from the drivers actually get into uh depot and and leaving, you know, that no one gets close to them from that perspective, and they've really got that side of it you know nailed. And I think that's why they can get so much volume out of those posts.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Well, it also sets the driver up for success during the day as well.

SPEAKER_02 13:03

Of course it does, yeah. And it means that they're not they're not uh providing service for many as many hours as right, yeah. Because you know, other networks they'll spend two hours loading the vans in the morning. Do you know what I mean? So that's frustrating two hours. It is frustrating, yeah. And they're also they're organising them, putting them in the right order and thinking there is a little bit of a difference, which is and I think you know, the the more uh sophisticated drivers, they they're a bit more like posties outside of the Amazon network. They start to learn their routes and think, know where that person lives, and I think they organise, but that only comes with time. Correct. Whereas an Amazon driver can walk in and pretty much on day one, you know, they can do a route successfully because it's all organised for them in the right ways.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

But a lot of our drivers do keep on the same routes day after day. Okay, that's right. So they they get to know their area, they get to to know the best way to navigate that route each day, which helps them.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

It does, yeah, and that's obviously a big part of self-employment, right? They've got that freedom to sort of think I might do it a little bit different, or I know where to park to deliver you know, a handful of parcels.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

So they'll do some on foot, so you know, some in the van, yeah, uh and work it out for themselves. And also you've got the bike side. We have, as well. Yeah, so we launched the bikes in October last year. So that's adding a new dimension, yeah. Uh which is really helping us actually deliver in Manchester city centre.

SPEAKER_04 14:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Um it's much easier. Yeah. Uh, you know, you're less worried about the bus lane fines, the parking fines. Yeah. Um, it's easier to navigate.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Deliver into like tower blocks and stuff like that, and apartments, yeah, right. It's so much easier. Correct. Uh, because I mean there's lots of city centres. I mean, the one that I can think of that is particularly I mean, Manchester and Birmingham and London obviously are bad. But then you've got like city centres like Leeds as well, which are terrible for bus lanes and deliver into. So I'd imagine that, and obviously then you've got uh the environmental side of it as well, right? Uh so no, it's uh it's great. They look great, those bikes. They are really good, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

They're great to ride as well. I love it. I guess the only downside of it is obviously in the winter, right? Uh but in the summer months you've got.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Well, yeah, I think some of the riders yeah, we we've predominantly done throughout the winter so far. Yeah, I quite you know, we make sure that they've got waterproof clothing and everything like that. Yeah. But they do they they quite like it.

SPEAKER_04 15:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Um, yeah, it's it's a couple of miles to go from the depot into the city centre. Yeah. And they've got to do that a couple of times. Yeah, oh yeah. It's a good way to keep fit. You definitely um they do the kit they keep warm and uh they keep on going. And some of them will do two, three routes a day comfortably.

SPEAKER_04 15:29

We're all there, really?

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Yeah. So coming backwards and forwards. Coming backwards and forwards today, yeah. Okay. So that's good. But that that's going to be the next challenge for the whole thing, is to say, right, how do we take the parcels actually to the city centre? How do we make it a lot more efficient and uh get more out of those bikes? You know, they're losing a huge amount in that stem time at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

I guess what it wouldn't surprise me if Amazon are looking at how they can use things like lockers and things like that. Do you know what I mean? Because I know that other people have looked at delivering to lockers and then and then delivery drivers going to lockers and then deliver into doorsteps.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Because that would make a Yeah, I I think that they need some form of infrastructure actually into the city centre. And you you know, I don't know what it's like in Birmingham, I don't know what it's like in Leeds, where the actual depots are. Yeah. But that that's going to be the next constraint for Amazon because they they don't have city centre depots at the moment, yeah. But they're going to need to do that because then they can also say, Well, we're doing next day, but what about same day? Uh what about customer pickups, customer drop-offs returns? Yeah. Yeah, how do we get the fresh produce to customers in the city centre a lot quicker as well?

SPEAKER_02 16:37

I've seen the bike seems like I think in the US, four four states in the US, or not before cities actually, four states. They're trolling like 30 minutes. 30 minutes, yeah, that launched last week. Oh, that launched last week, yeah. I've seen that, yeah. And I've seen someone's actually, it's a really good point. Do people need stuff in half an hour? But it ain't the fact you need it, it's just you've got the option. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? That's the deal.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Yeah, but do you use Uber Eats? Yeah, of course, yeah, yeah. Same thing, isn't it? Yeah, the amount of bikes that you see riding around at the moment. No, he's uh he's he's crazy. Big industry.

SPEAKER_04 17:06

Yeah, he is, yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Yeah, we we've got a guy just round the corner from where I live, he's got this little uh cafe, um, and it's probably the size of this room, little coffee shop, and he's got a pizza oven in the back. Um and he closes at 5 30, and between 5 30 and 9 30, he does pizzas and he uses Uberies to deliver it.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Uh clever, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. If you can get it, if you can get yeah, no, he's really clever. But you're right though about the infrastructure side of it. How far is the Manchester depot from the city centre? It's probably two, three miles. Is it? It's the same as the Birmingham one then. So DBO2, which is in Tisley, is probably about 20 minutes to city centre. Yeah. But the problem is obviously when there's traffic and whatever else, that makes it a lot more.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Well, it's quite good with the bikes, because they can get through the traffic, they can use the cycle lanes. Yeah, I think so. For us, yeah, when Man United are playing at home, yeah, it's much easier on the bikes for them to be able to get through that traffic. Yeah, but yeah, of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Um all right, well, that's a really great background there. Uh and obviously you mentioned there that growth from five to 40 routes super quick. Yeah. How did you handle that sort of scaling? You know, you know, that's a that's a big uh increase in routes over a short period of time. How did you it's a risk taking okay?

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Yeah, so I remember like Christmas, I remember um speaking to my business coach at the time, Alistair, yeah, uh, and he took a gamble. He you know, we said, Look, in order to do this, we need more vans. And they actually allowed us to self-source. Okay. Right, which you know, that that's obviously something that they're looking at now. But back six years ago, that that wasn't a thing. Okay. Uh, and he said, Yeah, just go and get them.

SPEAKER_04 18:44

Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Um, you know, we'll sort it out. And I remember him getting it telling off for saying we haven't authorised this. Okay. Uh, but that they did uh and it worked for us. Okay. Yeah, we just said we we need it, we know we can grow, we know we can take the volume. Yeah, let's just push that envelope a little bit further to see what we can do. Uh and the Amazon likes that they they like the initiative. Yeah, of course. Um, they like you working with them to say, right, okay, how how do we try and solve the problem um and and make it work? Yeah, and it is the the relationship works when you work with them.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

No, that's great to hear, yeah. Yeah, didn't realise they let self-sourcing that first year. But I don't think they officially did. Oh, but that's by default.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

By default, okay, but that was the key to sort of getting that. Yeah, that's what and that then pushed us because it allowed us to then um grow into the following year and to keep those routes and to gain percentage. Uh and we got rewarded by being in the city centre and university routes. That was really good. Um that's sarcasm. Um yeah, but we were given a a really bad area and a tough area that people had failed in previously.

SPEAKER_04 19:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Uh and over the years, yeah, we've struggled with it, but we've worked out how to solve the problem in there. And you know, five years after being given it, we're still in the city centre. Yeah. Uh and actually we probably do 90% of the city centre now, either in the vans or on the bikes.

SPEAKER_04 20:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

So uh achievement isn't it? Yeah, and we're now getting a fantastic scorecard by doing it. Which so that that is unheard of. I mean Manchester City Centre and having the bikes in there and getting a fantastic scorecard.

SPEAKER_04 20:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Uh it is pretty unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

That is great. And does that learning and scaling and optimising ever end?

SPEAKER_01 20:38

No, I don't think it does. Because I think you're always learning, things are always changing. Yeah, they are. Yeah, the the demand for the metrics is changing, the technology is always changing. Yeah. Um there's all sorts of different things that are in there that you've just got to continually improve. Yeah. And I think, yeah, hopefully that will hold us in good stead, yeah, within Amazon. Yeah. And if ever we looked at different suppliers to say we know that area, we've got the skill set for really hard geography, uh, and we know how to solve the problems.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

And uh, yeah, because that uh city centre uh uh expertise is really valuable, right? Yeah, but you uh you can only get that expertise by doing it.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Correct, particularly with the e-cargo bikes, you know, that that's a completely new dynamic, and it's also a different type of rider that's delivering those parcels, so they need different training. Yeah, of course. Um but once we can crack it, uh and once we can say, right, okay, this is how you deliver using these vehicles in this sort of terrain, it works really, really well. And then you can replicate that from city to city.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Was it a big uh shift going from the vans to the bikes? Did it did it take a big shift from a a recruitment perspective or yeah, recruitment is different.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Um it's it's much easier. Okay. Uh but you have a full driving license. Yeah, the whole insurance criteria is completely different as well. So that that was new. Yeah. And also the vehicles. We've got one of the new e-cargo bikes, which is a new generation. And we thought they were going to be all singing on or dancing, but they've come with their problems as well. They haven't really been tested as well as everyone thought they had been. Yeah. So we're experiencing all different issues with those and we're having to adapt our team to be able to help repair them. Yeah. How do we problem solve any issues that we have with them and work with different suppliers to keep those on road longer? Okay. And it's new for Amazon as well, they're experiencing whole different things as as they're rolling that.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

I know they have had bikes for a while, haven't they? But they've never not I don't feel they've ever gone big on them.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

No, they've had them for three years. Yeah. And I think there was a lot of learning in those three years that they're now trying to use. They they need to roll this program out.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Yeah, they do.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Yeah, and they need to roll that roll it out to multiple depots.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Yeah, because I've not heard of many I've not heard of many people having the having the bike.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

So it must be. No, I think there's probably only maybe only be ten of us, if that. If that in the UK at the moment. Okay. But it it will grow quite quickly, I think.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

I'd imagine so, yeah, because it just feels like it does feel a little bit like the future, doesn't it, to have that sort of flexibility. What does it look like? I'm just asking questions now, just out of my own interest. Yeah, do you get much damage on the bikes and stuff like that?

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Starting to a little bit. Oh really? Actually, yeah, is the the navigation system can take you down cycle tracks, yeah, which actually are too narrow for the bikes. So you know, uh I never really looked at cycle paths before this, but uh there's lots of street furniture, so you can often have a uh cycle path going underneath a a sign, a road sign, yeah, which actually with the poles for the sign, uh actually you can struggle to get through, or cars can park across a cycle path and then you've got to try and back up to try and get out of them and crash into all sorts of things. So you do get a lot of scraping down the side of them.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Yeah, uh yeah. If you become like a cycle line if Shinado now then my wife might think I'm a bit of a nerd, but you're not constantly analyzing something trying to do it.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

It's uh but yeah, so there are challenges, and then also um depending on the road types as well, that has a massive effect on the ball bearings and the drive shafts, everything. This is the surprise.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

This is the thing I was saying this on a on another podcast not too long ago. Uh people have no idea when it comes to running a logistics company how much you've got to think about the ball bearings on a bike.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

Yeah, I mean, that's one of your daily thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

We had to replace all the ball bearings on the bike. Yeah, you said um so we had to take the whole fleet off uh road for three, four days in order to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

It's crazy, and it just that's one of the things you've got to think about. And sorry, Rob, before I think before I forget, you said a phrase a minute ago, and I want to know if this is like common parlance for people that have e-bikes. Street furniture? Street furniture, is that just some road signs?

SPEAKER_03 25:14

Yeah, road signs. Is that a made-up server? Is that what that's no, it is a general street furniture? Yeah, but I'm just gonna street furniture.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Okay. Um so going back a little bit, yeah, growing you know, the business as you have. At what point did you launch and then go, right? I can't do this on my own. I need you know, OSMs or I need other people around me to support the business. Because I know that quite famously, it's not really recognised as an official role, right? But everyone has them.

SPEAKER_03 25:46

You need them.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

You need them. How quick did you sort of start and then go, actually, this is impossible to do on my own? Six weeks before we launched. Seriously.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Okay, I love that. Yeah, you hadn't even started and you were like, This is impossible. Well, no, I I I knew um I knew I had the business in the States. Yeah. Um, so I I knew that once everything settled down, yeah, I'd need to go back and forth to the States as I do. Yeah, I'm there four or five times a year. So I knew that that would need to continue.

SPEAKER_04 26:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Uh and I also knew that I didn't want to work seven days a week on it. Um, even though I'm there and looking at it and working on it seven days a week, I didn't physically want to be in the depot and in the office.

SPEAKER_04 26:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

And I knew nothing about delivering. Yeah, cool. So I stole my DPD driver.

SPEAKER_04 26:34

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Yeah. Oh, right. So yeah, so Matt, who knew my wife as well as I did, because he delivered to her every day, if not twice a day. Yeah. Uh, I was having a conversation with Karen and I said, Right, okay, I need help here. Should speak to Matt.

SPEAKER_04 26:49

Great idea.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:50

Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

So uh went for a couple of beers with Matt. Yeah. And uh I think he looked at me like I was someone from Mars. Yeah. Uh, and he started thinking about it. He thought, okay, maybe.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

And so I bought him in from say literally probably I think he started week two weeks before we physically launched.

SPEAKER_04 27:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Yeah. Great idea. Gave back his DPD franchise. Yeah. And he's been there with me ever since. Great idea, that is. And I really needed that because he knew how to deliver. Yeah, cool. Yeah, uh, I had skills that he didn't have and and vice versa. Yeah. And that's what's worked really well. Yeah. Um, and I was so from that early day and from that time, we said, right, okay, how do we do this? How do we bring people in? Where do we get the support? Yeah. Uh so when we launched in Warrington, when we got the second depot, so we were the first DSP in Europe to get a second depot and to launch into there. Wow. Um, again, put a full team in there straight away. Bought people on for fleet as the fleet started to age and become more damaged and need more work on it. So, right, we need a fleet manager. Yeah. Um, I was doing lots of the recruitment, then realised okay, we need a recruitment manager in there as well. Yeah, I just I realised quite quickly I just couldn't do everything myself and didn't want to. You know, I can be a bit of a control freak with these sort of things. And I thought, okay, I I've got to really step back and make sure that I've got a team in place to do it. And what does the size of the team look like now, Rob? So take the drivers out. So we've probably got a team of about 140, 150 at the moment. Yeah, including including the drivers and riders. Yeah. Uh and there's probably eight OSMs.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Eight OSMs?

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Yeah, so fleet managers, recruitment, uh, day-to-day. Yeah, we're running three different teams. Yeah, we've got one side, Manchester, and the bikes. Yeah, of course. Um, and each of those need two OSMs in them.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

Wow. And then that experience of going into multiple sites, yeah. Um, because I've always felt uh from dealing with DSPs for you know six years now that the best ones are the ones that really understand the depots and are in there and understand the drivers as well. What was that experience like going into a second site? Because then you focus is sort of split, right? It was.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

It was it it was it was a good challenge, um, but Warrington is very different to Manchester. Okay. So Warrington's purpose-built site, yeah, much newer site, smaller site, um, and not a major city as Manchester is. Yeah. Um so Manchester is a lot more challenging than Warrington. Oh, really? So for me, that probably made it easier. Because you're going the other way. You've got to go from Warrington to Manchester. No, that would have been much, much harder doing it that way. So uh I I've had confidence in the team there that's been able to just let them get on with it. Okay, that's good. And yeah, whether I'm in there once, twice a week seeing them or managing it from further afield, yeah. It it is much easier to do. But that's also a smaller depot for us. Yeah, Manchester remains the biggest depot that's doing in vans 35 plus fans a day out of there, yeah. Whereas Warrington's doing 24 probably. So not massively smaller, but it's not massively smaller, but it is it's easier to manage. Okay, that's that's interesting. Yeah, and it's easy to manage the fleet in Warrington because they've got undercover car parks in there, whereas Manchester's still on an outside car park as well.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

Yeah, okay. Like you say, it's purpose-built though, wasn't it? So the Manchester one I'd imagine would have been one of the really early sites, whereas Warren seemed a bit later. You see that in the with the Amazon depot. They definitely do. I know they're doing a big upgrade of depots at the moment, aren't they? But they definitely the uh the newer sites they learn from previous sites and they really do improve them, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Yeah, because Manchester's going through huge developments at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Yeah, there's lots of the big lots of the older sort of sites, you know. Again, DBR2, the original Birmingham one, that's going through a massive revamp at the moment. Yeah. Um so and that's cut the volumes back, hasn't it, temporarily?

SPEAKER_01 31:04

It has done, although Manchester hasn't seemed to suffer. So that they're going through their second year of redevelopment. Yeah. They put new internal mechs in last year, yeah, and they've now taken one of those out temporarily because they're putting in a second floor uh for the same day deliveries. Yeah. So they'll they'll bring in, I don't know, it's about 20,000 SKUs that they'll bring in that can then be delivered the same day out on vans, out on bikes. But then we're all going to change on that because there's going to be fresh food in there eventually. Of course. Um, so yeah, do we need different vans to deliver in? Yeah, refrigerate guns and stuff. Yeah, refrigerated. How do we do that on the bikes? Yeah, how can we increase the bike volume in order to be able to do the same day from that depot as well? So it's gonna change so much more within the next 12, 18 months.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

They're not slowing down, are they, to be fair. Amazon. They still they're still they still want to grow. I know that they've you know probably throttled it a little bit this year because they're doing such a big investment, but they're doing the investment because on the other side of it, they want tons more volume. Correct. Yeah, yeah. No, but easily, I mean look, they are the I would say Amazon and DPD, you know, uh, if you're getting a parcel from one of those two companies, you you pretty guaranteed you're gonna get it right. And Amazon are brilliant. I can't think of a I can't think of a single time when I haven't got a package from Amazon.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

I don't think I've ever had an instance where somebody doesn't mean the ordered. One time. Yeah. But then generally it's yeah, I think it hasn't been delivered, but it's been delivered to a neighbour or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

You think I mean, I mean I don't know about your house, but you know, my house is borderline Amazon Depot itself. We got parcels literally at least once a day. Yeah, there's something coming. 100%, yeah. I mean, we we get a ridiculous amount, especially when we're about to go away on the holidays and stuff. Yeah, the Amazon parcels just take a completely so easy.

SPEAKER_04 32:51

Everything haven't they?

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Yeah. No, they are they are the masters of that. Um okay, so tracking back a little bit, because I think it'd be really interesting for people listening that maybe are thinking about setting up an Amazon DSP or or approaching the program. Uh you you've talked about it a little bit, but about the time it took, but what was the actual process? Was it an apply online and then an interview? And what does that actual process mean?

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Yeah, it was an apply online, um, then you had to put an application together. Yeah. And I probably spent about four or five days putting this application together. Okay. So you really went to the room. Yeah, it that's just me you know trying to think through it properly and put something down on paper. Um, then that process really, really quickly. They said you'll hear it within six weeks. Yeah. I think I heard within 24 hours. Okay. Yeah. Um, that I got to the next stage. Yeah. And then the next stage was uh it was an AI interview, believe it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:49

Was it?

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Going back, it was uh because you couldn't do face to face. So literally I had to sit in front of a computer and it would ask you questions, yeah, and then you could practice the answer to the question and then you had to record it.

SPEAKER_04 34:03

Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Yeah. Okay. Um so that was a little bit daunting because I I'd never done anything like that before.

SPEAKER_04 34:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Um, and then the next stage after that, which again hurt quite quickly we're progressing, um, was then face-to-face interviews, obviously, online. Yeah. Um, I think it had three of those. Okay. Might have been HR finance and operations people. Okay. Um, and then that led through then to say, right, we want you on the programme. Brilliant. Um, and then it was just uh looking at the legals for it and dealing with bits and pieces like that. Okay. Um and then onto the training.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Okay, and you know, obviously, Rob, you've done this for a you've done this for a a long time now, yeah, six years. You'd have seen new DSPs come into the programme, maybe some leave programme. What do you think? Do you think Amazon are looking for something in particular when they bring a new DSP on? Um you might have evolved over time.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

So I think the the looking itself starters, people that um are good at managing others. Yeah. I think managing cash flow is the key. Okay. Yeah, Amazon uh pay at the right times, yeah, they they pay very, very quickly. They are good payers, uh, but you still got to manage that cash flow. So they'll often pay you in advance for like your van rental, yeah, for example. Um people might look at it and say, oh, I've got a nice chunk of money sitting in the bank there. Yeah. Yeah, but you've got to realise actually that money is going to go out again. Uh and that's a particular problem for people uh over the Christmas period. Yeah. That a lot of money comes in in October, November, and December, yeah, and then goes out in February, March, and April.

SPEAKER_04 35:44

Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

So you you've really got to manage that properly. Okay. Um, and you've got to work people like Wise. Um it yeah, that's helpful because you're doing your compliance, yeah, the the contracting for the riders and drivers. Yeah, it it's keeping you safe. Yeah. Uh and it means that you're gonna pass the audits with Amazon if you're doing everything properly with a partner like Wise.

SPEAKER_04 36:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Um, and then you're also then it's easier to manage the cash flow paying the drivers and doing um the the payroll side of things.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Cash flow is so important. I mean, it's important in every business, right? I mean, we spend our always, you know, we spend you know, probably a couple of hours per week talking about you know ins and outs, and you know, we've got uh in in our world, we've got something called exceptionals, which is basically things that you spend money on that you're not planning to spend on again, uh, but they never seem to go down. So they're constantly always happening every year. They're not very exceptional because they're always there, yeah. But uh yeah, managing cash flow. And I think you know what, uh I've seen some really great operators, you know, DSPs that I've thought are really one in your, I don't know how they're name, one in your area actually. Yeah, I thought was a fantastic operator, uh, but didn't make it as a DSP, and it was all money-based, yes, not being able to manage the cash flow side accurately.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Yeah, so if you can do that, and then if you can manage the relationship with the partner, and whether that's Amazon, DPD, yeah, yeah, FedEx, it it doesn't matter, you've got to manage that relationship with them. And you know, is it a customer supplier relationship, is it a partner relationship? Yeah, uh, and there's always going to be blurred lines between it. Yeah, but fundamentally, we're we're all there to do the same thing, we're there to deliver parcels to the end customer and provide a good service, and we'll all do it in our own ways and in different ways. And I think that's what Amazon likes as well. Yeah, um, but you've got to work with them, yeah. Um you know, they they set the rules of the game and you've got to understand what those rules are and how they want you to operate. Yeah. Uh, and you that's how you'll set yourself up for success with it.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

I think you've I think you've hit the nail on the head earlier when you said that, you know, the auditing side and something that Amazon have always taken really seriously. And quite rightly. And I think you know, they've uh they're a big name, so they're always a target for you know your law firms and whatever, just because you know it's a good scalp to have Amazon on your on your books, right? Uh they're not going to want Bob's logistics, right? They want they want Amazon. Uh, but I think you know, one thing I'll say for I'll say for them, which they've definitely stuck to their guns on, is they they want that fairness in the network, right? They want the the DAs, the drivers to be paid sort of fairly. And yeah, it's frustrating sometimes for DSP owners uh because you know they're self-employed and vans get damaged and whatever else. But I think you know they have done a really good job of making sure the little guys, as you call them, get sprayed. And I think it's changed obviously over the years, the drivers have become more of a commodity than they were in COVID times because you know that there hasn't there isn't a pandemic happening, so they've got a bit more choice in terms of what they do. Um but I think um, and obviously their frequency of audits has decreased over time, right? They're not as frequent as they used to be, but the standards are still there, correct, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:58

And they they do exist on those standards there, yeah. And I think that's really important because you know, I I want to run an ethical and moral business, yeah, uh, and I want to do it correctly, you know. But when I set the business up, yeah, it it wasn't about oh, how much profit can I make. Yeah. Actually, it was about how many people can I provide work to, how many families can I help support by paying them weekly and making sure they do get paid weekly on the same day that they get paid the amount that they've worked for. Yeah. You know, and there should never ever be any question about that. Uh and it should be done properly. So, number one, you yeah, get the people in, you know, give them the money and and help them support their families, then offer people career progression as well. And yeah, we talked earlier about how many OSMs and fleet managers and recruitment people we've got, and that's really important. They've all come through the driver ranks, yeah. So people can see that there's a career progression there. Yeah, of course. Um, so that's a big, big tick for me. And then also when people say, right, well, I've achieved everything I can do with with Spotted B, yeah, um, and now want to go somewhere else. I I celebrate that. Yeah, no, yeah, I might be a bit annoyed that that I'm losing a good person, but yeah, if I can't give them more and they can achieve it somewhere else, that is brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

No, we're exactly the same here. I mean, we were again chatting about this recently. You know, we've got an amazing retention rate, uh, but the ones that have moved on, you know, have gone with our blessings, because like you said, if we can't give them the progression that they want, then there's nothing uh better for me. I got a guy that I'm still friends with uh now who not at Sticker worked with him, not at Why, sorry, I worked with a company called Sticker. Uh, and he was a content writer in the marketing team for me. Uh, and he always wanted to get into sports journalism. Right. Uh and he comes to me and said, I'm leaving, I'm going to work for newspaper, I can't remember what newspaper it was now. And I was absolutely chucked for him. Yeah. And now he's uh he works uh for West Bromwich Albion. He's in there, social media scene, spends his life now talking about sport and whatever. It's amazing, you know, happy days.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Uh I mean picked West Brom, which obviously that side of it, and then the other side is then working with Amazon and helping them grow the programme, yeah, and working out what does success look like in the program and how do I help others uh with their businesses and growing in the bit in the program and and getting the best out of it. Yeah, and I think if you can get those two working well together, then the profit comes out of it. Yeah, cool. Providing you manage your cash flow. Yeah, um, but and that's how we want to set up for success all the time.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

No, you've got it, but um, I mean, I hope you don't mind me saying Rob, but you know, there's a reason why we're interviewing you because you don't run an amazing operation. Thank you. Uh so you definitely want to listen to when it comes to setting these businesses up correctly. Um, so okay, so moving on a little bit, obviously we've spoken a lot about setting up, etc. Um looking back on your experience, if you were starting again today, would you do anything differently from what you did the first time around? Uh yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Okay, yeah. Uh but the only thing that I would do is that I would uh have started repairing the vans a lot earlier and kept on top of that.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

Yeah. I've heard this from a lot of people, yeah. I think I think it I think it was underestimated, I think, how much that racks up and actually the cost of repairing the mountain that racks up as well, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Yeah, and that was a challenge because Amazon in the early days that they weren't necessarily interested in it. Yeah. Um, and they weren't pushing us to do it. So, you know, the the goalposts were then changed probably three years ago, three, four years ago. Yeah, no, sorry, two, three years ago, when they said, right, we want the vans now up to a standard.

SPEAKER_04 42:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

And that was really hard for us to say, right, how are we going to get there? And they put support in place to do it.

SPEAKER_04 43:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

Um, but it that was a challenge. Uh, and when those goalposts moved, we need to say, right, well, how do we change? How do we adapt to to what's going to happen in the longer term with them? And they're right, the vans do need to look better. They're marketing, course, Amazon at the end of the day. Yeah, cool. Um, so we bought into a Chips Away franchise. Yeah. Um, that that would help us, it would help us maybe repair some of the vans, but learn what we needed to do for that. Also helps us repair customers' cars when uh the vans go into them. Yeah. Uh, and that's really important that we can try and self repair things like that. Yeah. Because one of our biggest costs is insurance. Yeah, of course. So we want to keep those insurance costs down as much as possible. Yeah. And the best way to do that is not to have the claims going through the policy. Um, but what we then did after buying the franchise. And starting to understand that was then step two was to open a body shop.

SPEAKER_04 44:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

And I looked around to say, right, should I buy a body shop or should I just start from scratch? Yeah. And I I just decided to start from scratch. Wow. And we bought an empty unit in uh Trafford Park.

SPEAKER_04 44:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

Uh and literally set that up, put the oven in there, got the staff in, and we set it up to a really high standard. Yeah. Um because the look the last thing I want is health and safety coming in and say, you haven't got the right ventilation, you haven't got the paint room, um, you know, you haven't got the right airlines in.

SPEAKER_04 44:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Uh so we did that uh from day one with that business that we can now self-repair our vans as well. Yeah. Um and it's not necessarily about the fleet that we've had, yeah, because it's not that easy to repair that uh anymore. Yeah. But certainly the new fleet that we get in and the vans that we have now, as soon as there's any damage, let's get them in. Yeah, let's get them repaired, let's keep on top of it from day one.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

And that's difficult, right? It's difficult to start doing that when you've already got the damage, but you can't change it once you're to maintain and we say, I mean, we s we probably see, you know, depend depends on the volume, but you know, 20 to 30 new DSPs per year um come through the Amazon programme. We'll say them right, you know, from our perspective, you know, we've never run a logistics company, but what we hear from everyone else is stay on top of your van damage from direct jet me. You know, yeah, they've got a lot more flexibility now than than you guys had originally. Yeah. Um, so there's a lot more ways that you can do that. Um, if you can stay on top of it, and I think those insurance costs right, and working with the right broker on the insurance side as well. Yeah, because you work with HRIB. With HRIB, yeah, like yeah, so working with the right insurance broker that helps you understand how you manage those clients and what's really unbelievable. Yeah, that has made a massive difference.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Yeah, uh, and it is, it's about partnerships. Of course. Um, and HRIB, they help us manage the claims, yeah. They help us understand what the claims are and what that loss ratio is. Yeah, and yeah, we we're actually working on having a decrease in our insurance costs this coming year because we've managed that loss ratio correctly and we've managed the damage properly. And it's about you know reporting things on time, uh giving with dollars they call it. Yeah, yeah, and working with a third party properly. Yeah, um, yeah, Flock is brilliant, they've got so much uh safety um information on the portal that we have with them that we can see each van every day, we can see what sort of speeds it's going, what sort of risks it's having. Okay, we we can go on and we can see the speed that the drivers are going on the motorway, for example. Yeah, and we've seen some frightening speeds. Oh, really? Really, really frightening speeds on there, and we just get rid of the drivers.

SPEAKER_02 46:52

Yeah, of course, it gives you, but it gives you the data, it gives you the data to be proactive, yeah, right. You know, you're right. I think that um yeah, obviously, we we we've been working with uh uh HRIB, Jack and Callum for about 12 months as well. And the reason we started our sort of partnership with them is what we're trying to do is for the less experienced DSPs out there is bring all the great suppliers sort of together um so that they get the right advice from day one. Um I think what the guys do alongside good DSPs is manage that claims history and the third party notifications and that what people don't realise uh is that uh how much the third party stuff is really where the costs come from, right? So you don't manage it, they go out, they tell their own insurance, they don't care because it's not their fault. So they they'll give up and it'll be super expensive hire a car and whatever else. So it's so important that notification sort of side of it. Uh and I think you've got the the right broker, you know, which hats off to the chaps, you know. I know that they've got excellent claims guys on their side as well. Um, you can really man, it's such an important part of being profitable, right? Keeping that ban on that.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

Cash flow, it really, really does is that those costs can run away. Yeah, of course. Yeah, if you've suddenly got an increase of a thousand pounds a van a year, yeah, and you've got 50 vans, yeah, that's your margin. That's 50,000 pounds, it's got to come from somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 48:11

No, it has to be right. Yeah, that is lost profit at the end of the day. Uh you touched on it there, Rogue, because I think you've taken a really interesting journey with what you've done from a logistics perspective, because lots of people, there's no right or wrong here, because I've seen some people do it extremely successfully. Uh, but most people go with the okay, I'm in Amazon, how do I go into other contracts? Yes. Uh, whereas I think what you've done is you've looked at the businesses that sort of go around a logistics company and you've improved your margins uh for your logistics business, but then you've started business lines with those other businesses. So you've obviously got the chips away franchise, which I've been and seen, which is amazing, and I I use them myself locally. Shout out to Jason, my chips away guy when I scratch my car, which is frequent. Um but um so you started the chips away franchise, which which is incredible, and then you've also got the other side of it, which is almost uh before you've even got a driver, which is the recruitment uh side. So talk to me, what are you what are you doing on that side?

SPEAKER_01 49:09

So we we just started uh a company called driverjobs.co.uk. Great domain. I know it says what it is on the team at the end of the day. Um yeah, one of the frustrations for me um that it's not that easy to recruit drivers. Yeah. Uh they tend to use Indeed as the main portal, yeah. Um and that is it. Yeah, and that can be quite frustrating uh because that's quite a generic website. Yeah, of course. Um and it's not specific to our industry. Yeah. So we did a soft launch last year and we learned a lot within a couple of months. Um you know, we had half a dozen different companies on there, and we started looking at actually how the marketing would work on it through social media, through Google advertising. Yeah. Um, and then that's now setting us up for this year where we'll we'll increase the trial. We're not going to launch big this year, okay. Um, but we'll we'll be able to get you know multiple uh different companies on there across the the whole of the logistics industry, you know, whether whether it's uh a DSP, a DPD, an every FedEx, even Uber Eats. Uh so yeah, it's driver jobs. So whether you're doing a bike, an e-cargo, three and a half ton, uh seven and a half ton, uh a big lorry, fort lift drivers, uh, small pharmacy vans, you know, small pizza deliveries, it it's aimed at 1.3 million people who uh deliver in the UK. Yeah. Um and we'll grow it. Yeah. Uh and we'll work out the best and most effective way to uh appeal to people looking for driver jobs.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

And the great thing is, from your perspective, it's it services your own business, yeah, but then you know it's a it's a a potential secondary that business line that can deliver its own its own profit in an area that you've now got expertise in. Correct, right?

SPEAKER_01 51:12

So yeah, I want to help my margins on recruitment, of course. That's a massive amount of money we spend each year. Uh yeah, we're in tricky areas to recruit in Manchester and Warrington. Um, so we say, right, how can we help ourselves? How can we improve that margin and do things ourselves and then for other people?

SPEAKER_04 51:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:31

Um and then again with the van damage, again, we want to do that internally as well to try and keep those margins down and keep the insurance margins down as well. Yeah. So it's looking at that side of the business before we then look at expanding into other carriers and then using best practice as we go into those as well.

SPEAKER_02 51:50

It's definitely a really clever way of doing it. I've seen, you know, I think a few uh other business owners have sort of done uh started to look at doing the same thing, right? So I know that um Rob from Starlight has got a tire business and then Jamie Hardy's got his body shop now. Yeah, yeah. Looks amazing, doesn't it? Yeah. Uh so I think um it's definitely a really and uh because you guys are all so geographically spread spread, especially for like uh vehicle repairs, you know, you can every single DSP could in theory have one. Wouldn't we tread on each other's toes? Do you know what I mean? So it does that side of it works really well. But I think the driver job side of it uh is a really interesting side because you know I know that for DSPs, indeed aren't particularly popular, and it's nothing against I think Indeed necessarily just the expense. Just the expense, yeah. Yeah, Indeed have absolutely smashed it, right? They've become the destination site for recruitment, basically. Even when we're hiring people, I'm like, stick it on Indeed for a bit before we go to recruitment agency because we've had some amazing people come through, uh come through Indeed. Uh so I think um but like you said, the cost of it, because everyone uses it, the cost of it is just gone very both, right? Drawing peak is eye watering. And you've got no choice, you've got to use them. No, we've got to use them. We've got to use them. Yeah, no, they're playing they really have got a monopoly. Yeah, but that's what monopolies happens to happens to monopolies like they get broken. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:11

And we will do, and we'll we'll build a good business out of it. No, I'm and we know that we can work with the rest of uh the delivery community to to build something that is very specific and it appeals for a driver looking for a job.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

Yeah, no, definitely. Um all right, right, we're getting sort of towards the end here, but I guess what I'd like to finish on is your ambitions, I guess. What where do you want to take? I know this isn't a scripted question either. No, no, I didn't expect this one. Yeah, I've got listening to you talking and you've talked about like your driver jobs and and you know, your chips away franchise and you know, Spatty Beer as a logistics company. Have you got sort of where you want it to get to? Have you or is it just like as the sky's the limit almost?

SPEAKER_01 53:52

The sky is a limit on it to a certain extent. You know, I'm enjoying you know building the body shop. That that's been really, really good fun. I think had I known it was going to cost me so much money when I started it, I might should I be doing that? But actually, it it's been worth the investment. Okay. I I can really see the the positive impact on the bottom line as we get into year two for it. Uh I can see a how much it's saving me, but also there's a revenue stream coming in. Yeah. And I'm almost using the revenue that's coming in for it to pen to pay for my ender fleet that's coming up.

SPEAKER_04 54:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 54:29

That's that's my war chest for ender fleet. Okay. Um, so that's gonna help me as far as that's concerned. Okay. And then I'm excited about uh driver jobs as well, yeah. Uh, and to see where that takes us, yeah, definitely. Uh, and how we can grow that.

SPEAKER_04 54:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

And then I don't know, you know, I'm sure there's gonna be more opportunities in Amazon, yeah. Uh, and then potentially with other providers as well.

SPEAKER_02 54:54

And you've got the lit the the infrastructure right to do all of the yeah vehicle stuff and all the recruitment and whatever else.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

Yeah, and then it's about the team. Yeah, it really is. It's about saying, right, what who are the right people that can help on that journey and where do they slot into it? No, yeah. Uh and yeah, I'm always looking for that. Yeah, how can I I progress someone else's career? How can I give them the new skills?

SPEAKER_02 55:18

That's a nice thing. And give them new responsibility to do things. Yeah, sure. And you can't you can't do everything yourself either, right? Yeah. You've got that's something that I mean, you know, I have to admit as well that you know I'm a bit of a control freak myself. Uh not because I want to do all the works, I definitely don't. Yeah. Um, but you know, when you're a business owner, you you you want the quality to always be there, right? Yeah, just tell me what's going on. Yeah, and sometimes, you know, you have to appreciate that not everyone's going to treat your business as uh as you would, yeah. Um but you do get you know certain people that you you hire and you progress that do start treating it like that, and you go, you know, th those people are worth their weight in in gold, right?

SPEAKER_01 55:56

Um so but I think that's important though when you recruit people. Do you recruit people that are like you? Yeah, which I think you naturally do because that's what you want to be seen in the business. And then do you also recruit people that have skills that you don't have? Yeah, and sometimes you you've got to get that mix in there because you you've got to have people that have got the same beliefs uh and morals that you've got, 100% and that aren't going to put your business at risk.

SPEAKER_02 56:23

Yeah. Ethics and you know, we again um we were we were talking about this as we're doing a bit of a values piece as a business, uh, and I think you know a value that really shines through uh wise, and I think it has to shine through logistics is hard work, do you know what I mean? And I'm a big I'm a big believer in you know hard work. It's the old cheesy phrase, right? That hard work can definitely outdo talent, yeah. Do you know what I mean? When talent doesn't work hard, do you know what I mean? It's that old piece, right? But if you can get that blend right of people that work hard and the talent, then you've really you've really got something going to you. You want commitment from people, you do, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

Yeah, you pay for that commitment exactly people, exactly. It's all about rewarding people and showing them what the incentives are to be successful, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:06

Agreed. Yeah, no, definitely. Uh Rob, I've really enjoyed this. So but before we um before we wrap up, if you were giving you know maybe one or two insights or two key takeaways to anyone that's either currently running a logistics business or thinking of starting a logistics business, what would you say your key? I think I think I know what you're gonna say, but what would you say your key sort of insight would be? What would your be your number one takeaway, I guess?

SPEAKER_01 57:29

It's probably all about having the right people with you, yeah. Uh working hard, yeah, taking some risks. Okay, yeah. Yeah, you've got to take risks. Yeah. Uh sometimes got to have the the pockets to say, right, okay, I'm gonna gamble on this a little bit. You yeah, some of it's not about just looking at a spreadsheet, yeah. It it can often be right, what's my heart telling me, what's my gut telling me to to do with it, and you take those risks along the way. Yeah. Um, but you you know, just do it properly, plan, yeah. Um take the right risks, yeah, calculate risks, yes, yeah. Don't take stupid risks, yeah. Um that's not worth it. No, yeah, you'll always get caught out, yeah. And and then work, yeah, work with your team and then work with your customers and your suppliers as well. And you you know, if you do all work together, then everyone benefits. And yeah, that's one of the things that I I love with WISE is that we do work together, we we've got a really good relationship. No, we have really happy. And yeah, we help each other out. No doubt. Um, and it it's almost like family community. No, but it is that we are we're there for each other, yeah. And yeah, that might sound a bit cheesy at times, but do you know what you need it? You you need you need people to talk to, yeah, you need people to bounce ideas off. You know, it'd be a bit lonely running your business, yeah. Yeah, I'm sure you feel that as well. Definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

Um the right people around you, definitely. Because it easer, you know, the stress and you know, sometimes you don't get everything when especially when you're taking risks, right? You don't get everything right correct. Um so yeah, make mistakes.

SPEAKER_01 59:01

You make mistakes from the mistakes, exactly frustrating, but learn from them. Yeah, and yeah, also encourage your team members to make their own decisions. Yeah. And if they make a mistake, it's fine, make a mistake once, don't make it again. No, that's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Make it a second time they'll have a conversation. But you you you know, but do you yeah? Sometimes one of the team members will say, I'm gonna do this. I'm thinking, no, yeah, don't do that. But you you know, I've got to let them make that mistake. No, you're right. Yeah, as long as it's not gonna be a massive mistake. No, you'll probably see what it is. That that that trust factor, right, is really important. Um then own it. Yeah. Own that mistake. If you make a mistake, if you cock up, which everyone does, own it. And say, right, how do we make this better? How do we put it right?

SPEAKER_02 59:44

Yeah, I always say to my goals all the time. I mean, I'll make a mistake every day. Right. Um only one, yeah, occasionally, yeah. Um no, but I think if you um uh when you try new stuff and you take in risks, you are gonna make mistakes, and as long as they're not you know catastrophic, you know, you can it's I think it's a key, a key thing for me when you're running a a business is I think that you've mentioned risk and whatever else. I sort of think of it as almost like bravery, right? You've got to at some point you're right, these decisions, you don't always have the data in front of you, but you've got to go, what do I think is the best thing to do? And you do it, and if you're wrong, you quickly pivot and you go back. You know what I mean? And you can you can do that, and I I don't think you'd have a business or we'd have a business if we hadn't along the journey gone, oh what what do we think about doing this? Yeah, you know, let's let's take a gamble on it. Um and you'll take some big we call them big bets, right? So we call them we try and have a big bet every year, yeah, and we have to put some cash into it, and some of the bets pay off and some of them don't, but if you get you know the vast majority right, um do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

It's uh it's just like taking those 10 vans on at that first Christmas. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, right. We took the bet, we you took the gamble, went out, sourced them, yeah. Told we were going to get paid for them, yeah. Uh, and we did, yeah, and it worked, and we we grew, we massively grew as a result of it. And that set us up for success into the following years, and then moving forward after that. Love it. Rob, pleasure to have you, my friends. Thank you, Dan. Good to see you again.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:10

And yeah, good luck in Istanbul. Thank you, mate. Yeah. Hopefully, when this goes out, yeah, uh, we're Europa League champions. Hopefully. Hopefully. If I'm not, then I'll get a variety egg on my face. I'll expect to be abused in the comment section. Well, if we're not uh You might get abused anyway, but I might get abused anyway, yeah. But if we don't, then I expect lots of abuse. But I know if we we do, I won't get any praise. I've accepted that. I'm not gonna get congratulations, Dan.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:36

You know, sorry that you lost anything. Yeah, don't do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:40

We're gonna we're gonna be chilling away and say, yeah, you go right. Uh Rob, thanks mate. Thanks, Dan. Cheers.