Episode 18: Behind the business: Logistics is a team sport with Duncan Ruckledge

What happens when you swap a structured corporate career as a Program Manager at BT for the fast-paced, high-stakes world of logistics?

In this episode, we sit down with Duncan Ruckledge, owner of Dunk Distribution, to get a look at what it really takes to launch and scale an Amazon Delivery Service Partner (DSP) business. Duncan tells some honest truths of the industry - from surviving 18-hour days and managing driver struggles, to the hard-learned lessons of expanding to a second depot without the right team in place.

If you’ve ever thought about getting into the DSP network or scaling a multi-contractor logistics operation, this episode is a masterclass in operational grit!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I was pretty naive when we launched. So I made the mistake of launching without a manager. Those were very busy six weeks. You know, it was kind of like 18 hour days. Really? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

Amazon definitely do get sort of the cream of the crap when it comes to solutions because people go out there why to build it specifically for that environment.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

What I should have done and what I'd advise anybody to do is hire an experienced Amazon on-site manager before you launch. You have to have confidence that you're going to have the income to support paying this third party for that software, but you know that it's going to save you two OSM days a week or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

It's not an industry where you can do it on your own, is it?

SPEAKER_01 0:40

No, absolutely not. I mean you have to be ready to jump in a van, which I had to do on the first day. Which was in yeah. I I had a guy calling me in tears saying I just can't do that. Oh really?

SPEAKER_03 0:53

So I had to go out and finish his route for that the difference between the best DSPs and the not so good DSPs when he needs. Okay, Dunk, welcome. Hi Dad. Thanks for being on the podcast. You're welcome. Uh so you're the owner of Dunk Distribution. Uh and you've been going for how long, Dunk? Coming up to five years in September. Okay, amazing. Um so do you want to tell us a little bit about your journey, what you did before this, uh, and what it was like sort of starting and launching a logistics company?

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Um, yeah, so um I was a program manager at BT. Um so not in logistics at all. Yeah. Um I'd had businesses previously in property development and things like that. Okay. But I was on salary at BT and I don't really like that kind of corporate environment, so I was looking for something else. Yeah. We were in COVID, and I think I was just having a beer with a friend um on our patio, distanced. Um and uh distance beer, yeah. Get that in there, yeah. And I um you know, I just I just said to him, You got any ideas for anything else? And he said, Well, a friend of mine, uh friend of my brother has got a DSP with Amazon in in Queens, I think it was. Okay. Something like that. Yeah. And it's it's going really well. Yeah. And I, you know, I'd never thought of anything like that before. You hear of you know, franchises and whatever, but because I'd got that personal kind of recommendation, I look I looked into it and thought, sounds okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Um, and I spoke to the guy and he he gave me a bit for more information and yeah, I thought, and um Oh wow. Is he still going with the VDSB? Uh I don't think he is actually.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

Well, that's uh that's some I didn't know that. Uh and I I knew I remember you telling me before that you were a uh program manager. Um I didn't know about the other businesses before that, so that's uh that's interesting. Okay. And then uh what was that like obviously that's quite a difference going from uh working at BT to sort of launching a logistics company. What was that time period like? How long did it take from sort of inquiring to sort of going live?

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Um a long time, but the the interview process went um you know at a reasonable time, but but once I'd been accepted, um I lived closest to the Sheffield depot, but nothing was becoming available there. So they they um after months of waiting, and it was literally six months, I think. Really? Um they offered me Doncaster, um and I said, yeah, that's fine.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Okay. How long is Doncaster from Sheffield?

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Uh about fifty minutes. Uh well 50 minutes from where I live. Okay. Uh half an hour from you. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

I remember someone, who was it?

SPEAKER_03 3:32

Uh the DSP who just he was waiting for ages for a site and he accepted it, and he was commuting from something like Nottingham to like Cornwall or something.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Right. Commuting. That ain't a commute, you know, that's a trek every day. Yeah, I think there's a few DSPs now that that travel that I mean they don't have to travel every day off, but have set up um quite a long way from where they're live.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

I guess the thing with Amazon, of course, is you if you want to get into it, you take a site that becomes available, don't you? Correct, yeah. Because they don't come available that quickly either.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

And also if you know how you're going to set it up and you're confident that you can get a manager to be local and the ops for you, then there's no reason why that doesn't work.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Yeah, of course. Well we'll come on to that because that's a really interesting point about managers and scaling and stuff. So obviously, starting you waiting six months, which is obviously a long time to be waiting. In your mind, did you know sort of what your plan was going to be, or was it still all sort of completely green filled when you got in there? Um, and did it what was the what challenges did you have that you just weren't expecting when you first started?

SPEAKER_01 4:35

Um so I guess because I knew um this friend of a friend, yeah, I'd got a little bit more insight, but I was pretty naive when we launched.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Um it was quite a shock as soon as you've got a van on the road that that takes time away from you, even just one van because you've got to manage that, but you still need to be recruiting and and everything else to do with running the business. So I made the mistake of of launching without a manager, and then it took me, and then I was on my back foot, um, and it took me about six weeks, I think, to find a manager to to come in.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

Literally me, my next question was how long did you go back?

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Yeah, I think it was about six weeks.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

Really?

SPEAKER_01 5:15

And uh those were very busy six weeks, you know, it was kind of like 18-hour days. Really? Yeah, yeah. I w I was close to death, I think. The um the MDO team were like, Dunk, you need to get a manager. Yeah, I know. I'm trying.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

Yeah, but you gotta remember the business at the same time, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so someone you trust as well. And and I think like most DSPs launched just before peak, so you're competing with all the other DSPs for for you know in the recruitment space. Of course, yeah. So it wasn't easy, but we got there in the end.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

Um what was uh what was that first peak like as well? Because obviously you go from launching to peak, that's that's m major major rise. I remember my I've I've been at Wallace now, what, six years, so uh I think this would be my seventh peak. And even being a technology provider, being on the outskirts of peak is a bit stressful. Yeah. Uh but being in it obviously is way more. But first year, I bet that was something.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Yeah, I'd have liked to have launched a couple of months earlier so that we'd got our team to the size before peak and and got some more experience. Yeah, um, but we weren't expected to, you know, to to um to go above the minimum during that first peak. Yeah. Uh like I say, recruitment was was quite difficult and and we were still learning a lot about you know, fleet manager, management, scorecards, everything else at the same time. So it was quite messy.

SPEAKER_03 6:43

And how does that um how does that compare to sorry that some of these aren't scripted questions, then this is what I do on these. I just make it up as I go along. So obviously, first peak, how does it does it get easier every year? And I mean, obviously it never gets easier, Pete, but I mean, do you get more experience and therefore you know every year like what to what to improve on from the year before, or is it always still as stressful?

SPEAKER_01 7:06

So you obviously gain experience year to year, but I think it can fluctuate um depending on the conditions uh out then. Nothing's the same, you know, no no weeks are the same and no no peaks are the same. But um last peak we had a good peak, but the one before we struggled with recruitment in one of our um depots. Yeah. Um I think well, for various reasons, but one of them was that it wasn't it wasn't, you know, we weren't paying a premium rate, so yeah, um it was hard to attract people.

SPEAKER_03 7:38

Yeah. Did that uh transition from your multi-depot, so was it a lot more stressful when you went from one depot to two, or was it because you already had a way of working in one depot, was the second depot sort of easy enough to absorb?

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Yeah, absolutely. I think you you don't get your second depot unless you've got a good team in place. Yeah. Um but you've learned everything from that first depot, and and you know you've got to you know have a team in place in that in that new depot. And if you can move experienced people into that new depot as well that that you know and you've worked with before, it it can be um you know a step, but but not not a massive thing.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

And is that obviously you've got uh two sites, they'll come with their own challenges. Uh is the do you find that the recruitment's more difficult in one than the other? Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, yeah. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

I think the demographics um and you you'll know that around the country some some cities struggle uh and other cities don't um with with recruitment, and I think you know it's just about the demographics of those areas, you know.

SPEAKER_03 8:46

And some I mean, I I know that some cities don't struggle with finding people, but they really struggle with the quality. Do you know what I mean? And then you got the m one of the most fascinating ones I ever had was like Cornwall and Exeter, where uh they have almost like a reverse peak, which is yeah, in the summer it's really hard to recruit people because everyone goes and works. It looks busy, yeah. Everyone goes and works like ice cream shops and everything else. They're like, what would you rather do? Sit on an ice cream shop at the beach or work at the fair or be in a vanal deck.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Yeah, do you know what I mean? And the volume's gone up because everyone's on holiday then they're not ordering to the caravan site.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

Yeah, exactly. So but like the rest of the country doesn't obviously experience that's just the postal places that experience it. So it is so interesting how all these different sites have their own different challenges with. Yeah, even um I know there's a particular site, I think it's Cardiff Bay, where there's only one road in and out of the depot, uh, and drivers don't like working there because it's so hard to get to the depot. Right. So they don't struggle with people, and it's a it's a premium site and everything else, but people start working there, and like I'll have to queue an hour of traffic to get there, and it cuts them up in there. Yeah, so it's just mad, isn't it? You know, just the one little thing like that could completely make it impossible to uh to recruit and to find the right people. Um, so obviously, this seems like a bit of a loaded question, Duncan. I'm not expecting you to say whys here, but obviously, running a logistics business, you know, you need to rely on partners and and whatever else. You can't say whys now because I've made it so obvious. Uh what other sort of tools and companies and things like do you sort of rely on to keep the operation running and working smoothly?

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yeah, so we've developed this over the five years. Yeah, at the start, whys were um, I'm not just saying this, it's you know, I I really believe this for for compliance and and right to work, and also making sure that I knew how to pay the drivers new to this kind of business, new to logistics. That that was you know a an absolute must for us when we launched. Um, apart from that, we had a vehicle check-in app, just a checklist, really. Yeah. And then everything else was very low-tech spreadsheets.

SPEAKER_03 10:57

I remember when I first ever met you, Dunk, which is it's kind of going back, maybe going back three and a half, four years, and you showed me all your spreadsheets that you had and whatever else, and I was like, wow, there was a lot of spreadsheets at work here. Yeah, and you were showing me because obviously you wanted us to push on the platform and add more stuff on our side, which you know we've done a bit of, not all of it, definitely not. Um, but it's uh uh I think because it was quite an unsophisticated environment at the time, a lot of it was on spreadsheets and things like that, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Yeah, and I think a lot of DSPs still are. Um I think I was handed a few templates um from other DSPs, or or maybe in Amazon training at the start and and you know developed from there. Yeah. And then so, like I say, we've developed since then, and and I do, you know, I do feel that you make your life easier if you do get specialist um third-party software to do particular things like uh van damage checking.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Can't remember what else? Um, we've we've got incident management, we've got claims management. Um, they obviously come at a cost, yeah, but you'd be paying a manager to do these things and you might not be doing it as well. So I think um that these things pay for themselves.

SPEAKER_03 12:10

And I think if you're a DSP NAV launching, you've got a lot more of these tools sort of at your disposal than you had when you started, right? Yeah, it has developed, yeah. It's become a super sophisticated environment, actually. Yeah, and I think the mad bit about it is especially Amazon, um we've seen this that uh tech companies will build solutions specifically for the Amazon environment. Um so Amazon definitely do get sort of the cream of the crap when it comes to solutions because people go out there why to build it specifically for that environment. Uh and I think you know, obviously what you said about us there, I think that is probably where if I was if I was if I was gonna prize us for a second, which obviously I am gonna, um DSPs that launch, we are really useful just because we've done it so many times. I mean, we must have launched or helped launch 300 2.0's in the last five, six years. Uh so you know when someone comes to us, we can pretty much start, and more so now than just payments and onboarding, because obviously we know all the challenges that you guys have, so we'll try and say, don't do this and don't do that, and think about this, even stuff that's nothing to do with this, really.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Yeah, because we've heard anecdotally some people listen, and unfortunately, some people don't.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

Um, but at least there's a bit more knowledge there now than there was you know five, six years ago. Yeah. Um, because you know, like yourself, um, I'd never worked in logistics, I'd run businesses and just a business, but I couldn't have told a I don't I don't tell anyone anything, but I couldn't have said to a DSP, I'll think about this sort of thing. I said, we just didn't know. But think about uh van damage and whatever else. No one talked about that for two years. No, do you know what I mean? The vans were damaged, but no one talked about it. Exactly. And then about three years ago, it's all anyone could talk about, right? Uh no, it's uh it's uh interesting. So and then uh we've talked a little bit about it there, don't you? So you waited six months to sort of get your Amazon site. Um, but what was the process like from getting the site? Was it uh how long was the training process? Was it um pretty quick on the road from there?

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Um yeah, once it was once it was assigned the site, um I think I think it was like three days of remote training because of COVID. But even then it's hard to if you if you're not in logistics, it's hard to visualize what you know what you'll add what you need to do on a on a daily basis. Yeah. So I did, you know, when I when I got to station before I launched, I'd I asked quite a few questions, um, but still didn't really know, you know, when you've got a van on the road what what you need to be doing. So it was a bit of a baptism by fire. Yeah, we'll be well. Especially without yeah, what what what I should have done and what I'd advise anybody to do is hire an experienced Amazon um on-site manager before you launch.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

And then they'll just take care of so much stuff for you.

SPEAKER_03 15:01

Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? Yeah, I've talked about this before. There's almost a there's almost a business writing to happen there, which is like a specialist OSM recruitment business, do you know what I mean? Because they're such a such a commodity. Uh and the thing is there's always some available because as you know, unfortunately, there's always DSPs going out of business, um, or there's people uh that lose sides or move around, you know what I mean. Um so there's there's there's a population of them available out there. Um I know that there's a DSP who you there's lots of DSPs now, used to be OSMs, or I think Amazon was for a period of hiring X OSMs as DSPs. Yeah um and I know there was a guy that uh started a DSP and then got loaded the old O uh his old OSMs into other DSPs, uh as a bit of a service for people because you're right, a good OSM is worth its weight and gold. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, it's uh and I think do you think based on your experience now, Duncan, do you think lots of people listening and I get a lot of questions from other companies about this about what Amazon's looking for? Do you think that's changed over the years, what Amazon are looking for in terms of a DSP, or do you think there's still fundamental things that they want to see when they're bringing a new one on board?

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Well, I'd like to think that they take each person that applies on a case-by-case basis. There are obviously, like as you say, a lot of um business owners who uh have been drivers and and more often than not drivers and then managers at 1.0s or 2.0s. Um and I think that in some ways it is is a safer hire for Amazon to get to get people in with the experience, but then you know, I I I'm obviously a case in point, but they obviously look wider than that and appreciate that bringing people in with different skills and experience can can be helpful, can can work as well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

And I mean obviously COVID times was an interesting time, right? So we got tons of new DSPs coming through, and some of the big jobs that the DSP owners had, some of them were furloughed, uh, when when they were getting Amazon or starting the process of getting an Amazon DSP, um and we had like pilots and all sorts, yeah. So obviously pilots were doing nothing, were they?

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Um and and it was and it was a boom industry here, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 17:19

Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I remember I can't remember the who the DSP was now. I'm not sure if he's still doing it. Uh but um yeah, he's a pilot, and I was like, wow, he's a pilot, do you know what I mean? It's just that you wouldn't think that they'd just give up being a pilot to to do something else, uh, but you didn't know how long he was gonna be off for. No, it was uncertain time. It was really uncertain time, yeah. Um feels like a lifetime ago now, didn't I? Thank goodness. Yeah, thank goodness, yeah, you're right. Yeah, I don't don't think it would ever happen again. Um people staying at you think about it now, it feels really odd that we all just agreed to stay at home and not leave and everything else. Um what was mad about that was um obviously we we started was right at the sort of peak of of COVID, or just before it really started peaking. Uh and at first it was like, what's gonna happen to logistics? Because there was a bit going around that delivery drivers spreading it and whatever else, and yeah, because they're going to people's houses, but actually it ended up being like the core service, didn't it? Yeah, what would we have done with our home delivery? No, absolutely. Yeah, it was uh it became like the like a almost as important as like the police and all sorts of different over that little period.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yeah, critical workers, weren't we?

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Yeah, critical workers, yeah. Was it oh you was carried as um Yeah, it was, yeah. It was count what's what do they call it?

SPEAKER_03 18:32

Uh there was a phrase for it, critical no, it's not critical workers, is it? There is a phrase for it, but yeah, you're right, it was like they were core to the environment and the uh economy and just days of their living, weren't they, for a while? Yeah, it's mad really. So you've sort of already mentioned this, don't but I think if you can, you know, sort of double down on it, uh so I think it is important. You know, you've talked about the lesson really being around bringing someone experienced in to help you manage the the operation. Is there any other sort of tips that you give to someone who's thinking of starting a logistics business like keep these things in mind, or this is something that I think you should try and do from day one?

SPEAKER_01 19:06

I think just try and try and if you if you're in logistics already, you've got a much better idea of what you're doing. Of course. Um but just try to be set up before you launch so that you know you're capturing all the data in in a sensible format to serve you. Definitely, you know, use third parties and and and I think you you kind of have to in not invest, but you have to get set up before you you do these things. So you have to have confidence that you're gonna have the income to support paying this, you know, this third party for that software, but you know that it's gonna save you two OSM days a week or whatever it is. Um so j just plan ahead. Um but don't don't cut any corners, you know, do it properly and and and collect the right data while you're doing it.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

And do you think that's almost you know, when you're thinking about mindset and what makes a good obviously you you run a successful DSP but do you think there's certain characteristics that do make a successful DSP? Do you think you have to have a certain type of person to do it?

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Um I think you've got to go in with the knowledge that it's a lot of work and there's no s there's no corners to cut. You you have to you can get people to do you know, like as I say, you get managers to do a lot of the work, yeah. But as the owner, you've got to you've got to make sure that that you know you you're being compliant in all c in all manner of areas. Yeah. Um and it and it takes work. So um, you know, if if you set it up nicely from the start, you you're not necessarily you know working 18-hour days, but um and and hopefully you you can you can step back a little bit as soon as possible, but you have to be ready. I mean you have to be ready to jump in a van.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Um which which I had to do on the first day. Um really I I had a guy calling me in tears saying I can't I just can't do it. Yeah, I really so I had to go out and finish his route for and of course I didn't know what I was doing either. So yeah, of course, yeah, but that was an experience.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

Yeah, well, there you go, at least you've done it.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Yeah, yeah. Well yeah, you have to. I think that that was the other thing I was going to mention. I think you have to appreciate that the drivers are doing tough jobs. Some of them make it look easy, but you still have to appreciate that that they're working very hard, it's not a nice environment a lot of the time. Um they do have to overcome obstacles on a on a daily basis, and and if if they don't believe that their management team or their uh their business owner appreciates that, you're not gonna get any uh hundred percent um you know, loyalty or anything.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

Completely agree. I think um I I sort of when I ask these questions, I think about what almost what I think my answer would be just if in case you care done. I think what I've seen um Um the difference between the best DSPs and the not so good DSPs being is how in touch with the on the ground they are. And I think that feeds into your point there. So and I think I've seen quite a trend with DSPs that haven't made it. And forget about the Amazon environment in all environments when they don't go to the sites or they're not connected with the drivers or they don't understand the work that goes into it. Because I think then you know you do start maybe making unreasonable demands of the drivers or thinking that you're gonna get results out of people that you're not gonna or expecting a contract to perform and act in a certain way. Uh and I think um that just doesn't work. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 22:39

No, it doesn't, and and that doesn't mean that you're gonna know, you know, 200 drivers like like you know knew your your first 20. Yeah. Um but as long as you know that your managers do, yeah, you know their teams and and support their teams, you know, and and that that's and that's important, and you get the right managers that that uh do empathise with the drivers. Yeah. Um yeah, so I think it's a bit of a not an art form, but it you've you've got to you don't want to be as a business owner, you don't want to spend in all your all your time involved in operations. And my advice is get yourself out of operations as as quickly as you can.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

But that doesn't mean you don't understand and and you don't have other people um do it doing the right thing.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

Yeah, of course, yeah. And conscious that you know we we talk a lot about uh Amazon on these uh podcasts, but you've obviously got quite a bit of experience outside of Amazon as well. Um how does how does that compare? How does that sort of work compare Amazon B's, non-Amazon? And how long was it before you started doing other non-Amazon work?

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Um it was I think it was in the second year that I started.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Um and it's it's very different, and you have to grow up a lot. I mean, if you're not if you haven't worked outside of Amazon in logistics, um you can't expect it to be the same as Amazon. It's very, very different, yeah, and you kind of have to grow up and and and and and learn other things. Yeah, you you need to to fund it um because of payment terms. Yeah. Uh you you obviously negotiate and contracts with the partners. Yeah. Um so there's a there's a lot that can go wrong. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it's it's they're almost like two quite different worlds.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

They are. I mean, look, obviously we work with work with Amazon for a long time, but work with pretty much all the other parcel networks in some shape or form. And yeah, it shocked me how different they are. Um, because I was in Amazon, just Amazon for quite a long time. Uh, and obviously Amazon's whole method in depots and how they launch and you know, all that sort of thing, the organisation of the parcels and the roots, yeah. Uh it's completely different to everywhere else. And there's some good and some bad that comes with that. Yeah. Um, but you're that point. And we I say like, oh, can you put me into this person? I'm like, you know, you understand these things that they can be very successful, but understand that this is what comes of it. Uh but yeah, I mean some of your contracts now you've had for a for a long time, haven't you? Yeah, three years and so they they can they can and they do work, don't they? But you just have to understand that they are different.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Yeah. Yeah. It's different for the driver, it's different for how you manage each station, um, and there's a lot more work in it.

SPEAKER_03 25:17

Yeah, for sure, yeah. Alright, Doug. So, you know, when you're um obviously you're five years, nearly six years? No, just going into five. Just go into finishing five, fifty. Finishing fifth year, okay. Do you have any medium-term, long-term aspirations, what you want to do with the business uh in terms of growth, or is it about optimising it? Is the what when you think about the next 12 months, the next five years, do you do you have any goals in mind what you want from the from the DSP?

SPEAKER_01 25:43

I think going back to what we've just talked about, two different worlds. For me, it's two different worlds. So in Amazon, looking for growth and keeping it, you know, running efficiently, um, trying to re reduce uh fleet and insurance costs, you know. Um but outside of Amazon, it's more about optimization um and um you know every van that and driver that's on the road, making sure that we've got the right contract, that that there isn't too much management overhead to run that so that uh and you know and and optimizing profitability out of them.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

I think that's the key word, right? I think if you don't get that, I think like you said, you need those other contracts to almost be autonomous, right? Because that's where the profitability comes from. Uh if you having to manage them too closely or you need OSMs and stuff, then they do start uh being unprofitable though quickly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Okay. So so yeah, um being quite picky about what we do outside of Amazon. Yeah. Um not staying in places that that go and do something, yeah, and and and um gain the experience. But if if as soon as you see that it's not gonna work, get get in out as soon as you can. I think that's and we've stayed in places for for too long. Yeah. And and within the within the each network, each station's different as well. Yeah. So you have to kind of try things, um, and it and it's quite dependent on how that station's managed. Yeah. Um, and you and you don't know until you you go.

SPEAKER_03 27:12

You don't know, and obviously, you know what, you you you hit the nail on the head because I've had you know two companies who are DSPs or main contractors, is what we call them, more conclusive sort of term that we look at, and on paper they're exactly the same, they get introduced to the same network, but they're in two sites, and I get opposite feedback. One was I love it, it's great, the work's great, I love the people. The other one, the work's no good, I don't like the people, blah, but it's just it just all about the sites. It is, yeah. Yeah, and and we say that. I mean, you know, when we're rolling out software or we're dealing with you know, some station, some depots or stations, some are better, some are just better than others. Um, and it does start from the top, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

Um, so yeah, no, it's uh super interesting. So I think don't I was going to summarise your sort of points today? I think um one that everyone definitely should listen to is bring the right people into support. Right. I think that's the that's probably your key, your key message, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:05

It's not a peep people and products and services, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:08

Yeah, I don't think it's a company, it's not an industry where you can do it on your own, is it? No, absolutely not. No, no, no. I think that is uh I know that uh essentially sold that way uh originally.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Yeah, and I think if you have one team in one station that's that's um you know, you can kind of run run that, I think. Yeah. Um if you know what you're doing with with operations as well. Yeah. Um and and that if you're just staying at that size, you you you it might not support payment of a manager anyway. Of course. Um, but as as soon as you you go above that anywhere, then yeah, you need to.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

Or you don't have the experience yourself, right? Yeah, yeah. Uh so in which case you've got to decide do you want it to succeed or not, right? It's not really about time at that point, is it? Yeah, yeah. Um okay, and then I think the the other probably part of this is if there's people listening that are thinking, you know, they want to get second contracts, I think understanding that they are going to be different and you're gonna have to sort of face each sort of contracts as they come together. Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

Yeah, because I think, you know, we weren't nailing names, but I can think of you know a handful that are just so different from each other. Do you know what I mean? You've almost got Amazon. It's not, I mean, we say Amazon, I think, because it's almost the core of a lot of our customers' business, but actually, they're all different from each other, right? No two are the same, really. Absolutely, yeah. So I think it's appreciating that you might be successful in one or two, uh, but then the third you might not be, just because there's nothing different about the work necessarily about how they go about it and their methods might be different, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Yeah, and relationships, and yeah, yeah, of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:40

Relationships are key, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:41

Yeah, um, so okay, uh, yeah, that's brilliant, Dunk. I think you know we're at the end there.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

So I'd really appreciate you coming in and uh being a guest on the podcast. Uh I'll see you soon. Yeah, cheers, mate. Thank you. See you,