Ep.10// Mark Cuthbertson

Welcome back friends. Today we have Mark Cuthbertson. Mark is a guitarist based out of Dallas, TX. He's a sideman, an educator and the creator of his musical project Fantasticboom (avail on iTunes, Spotify etc)

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

And what what it was was some early advice from David Torn who said, just make the album you want to hear. Just make the art that you want. And that successfully warded away every single every single uh consideration of whether people would like it at every turn. That proved to be a you know that I think was a godsend.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Welcome back to the Noflakes podcast. Episode 10, the final episode of season one, and that is Mark Cuthbertson. He is the lead singer, creator of his project Fantastic Boom. Definitely go look that up now on iTunes. He's also an educator, a philosopher, and a ripping guitar player based out of Dallas, Texas. I hope you all enjoy my conversation with Mark Cuthbertson. Cuthbertson. Am I saying your last name right? That is perfect. That is perfect. Oh my gosh, my research. Oh, I'm with you. It's successfully rare that anybody does that right. Well, my last name is Subaru, and I could and everybody says Subaru. Even I've played in bands with people for 15 years, and it's still Subaru. There's no changing it. It's not gonna happen. So I just it's like, yep. I'll try to get it right.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

I'll try to get it right.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

It's totally fine. So you're currently in Dallas, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:36

I am in Dallas.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Amazing. And so I was just listening to some of your music, Fantastic Boom. It's so good. Um what was I just listening to? Where are my notes here? I was listening to How to Build a Hole. And that is a rad tune. What what and we don't we're not gonna go totally all in on all the music because I'd like to hear just kind of how how you got to that part. But those effects, what is that effect you're using at the beginning of that song?

SPEAKER_00 2:08

That is okay. So at one of them, there's a couple of things. One of them is just a hologram. What's uh what's the I forget the company? I don't know gear that as well as I I used to, I think. The uh whoever makes the hologram pedal. Okay. That's there's a the that's the ambient sound, but the other the synth is actually I've uh laid notes across a piano scroll and I'm dragging it across it. And then I'm later I'm I routed it through my uh my uh Lexicon Primetime 2, which has a uh clock doubler effect. And so that's what I'm skip, uh that's what I'm bouncing. It's also why there's a click every time I bounce. And but it's one of those, you know, you gotta break this egg to make an omelet. I don't think clicks are are some you know malum, you know, and say thing that have to be avoided at all costs. If if it's the way you get a sound, then so be it, you know. So be it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

So I I'm talking about his song, Fantastic Boom, one word. Look up Mark's music. It's amazing, kind of has like a radio head vibe. I mean, that's the first name I come to. I know that's maybe generic to some people, but definitely, definitely has that feel. Very lush, awesome stuff. So check that out, people. Um one more question on that song. I had another note. What kind of acoustic what kind of acoustic guitar were you playing on that?

SPEAKER_00 3:35

That is uh one of them is my early 60s Gibson J45. Yeah. And then uh I at least for some of the tracking, I had borrowed. Uh, there's a band called the Bar Brothers in Montreal, and I had borrowed his 50s J45. That was that was while I was in Montreal, but I don't think I don't remember if any of those takes are are actually on that. That may be both my 60s J45. J45s are pretty hit and miss, like Gibson's from every era. Yeah, and this one happens to be just the biggest hit I've ever hit on. Otherwise, I would have probably replaced it with you know some other one. But yeah, it's it's it's right. It's got that dry sound, you know. There's not too much bass, there's not uh infinitely extended treble frequencies, yeah, like by tons of acoustics have. And more importantly, there's a lot, there's a decent amount of in-range so that when I hit a say complex voicing, you can hear every single thing in it. Doesn't have that reverb y effect that some of these I don't yeah, I'm not sure what that is, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

I I have a J45 that's it's a 2009, and I love this guitar, and I've actually brought it places and had rental J45s and played the other ones, and I'm like, nah, it's just not even not even the same guitar. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

In fact, when I was so my friend Brady had that that early 60s one for years, and I tried to talk him out of it and uh and could never do it. And I and I found a 59 that was in immaculate condition on reverb. It was a bit more than I wanted to spend, but it looked like this could be Excalibur, you know, this could be the perfect. And so I bought it, and I could tell as I was tuning it up, oh my gosh, this thing sounds like absolute garbage. And sure enough, it did. It absolutely did. It was just it it was a really thin, plinky little thing. And uh, and uh uh Izzy, who uh used to build at uh Ronan, now he's uh Fium guitars. I I got him on the phone and he he just said that look, probably the reason why it sounds so bad is the same reason it's in flawless shape. Nobody's played it for decades. It's a petrified piece of wood. So so and that's the opposite of my J45. My J45 looks like it was it was kicked by somebody with little regard for public safety.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

So yeah, yeah, that's amazing. Um, yeah, I mean, as guitar players, like for me, my biggest thing is like, will this guitar just stay in tune and play a C chord? Yeah, yeah. It's like um So you're originally from Memphis, yeah?

SPEAKER_00 6:15

I am, yeah. I grew up uh I grew up in Memphis and uh then uh and it bounced around a little bit in that area, but but basically Memphis, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

I was just in Memphis last week. Um I'm out on the road touring with uh I'm filling in on guitar for the span Five for Fighting, which has been great. Um so we played at the um Graceland Soundstage. Do you know where that's it's right across the street from Graceland? Okay, is it okay?

SPEAKER_00 6:46

You know, I never even went to Graceland.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Oh man, it is a trip. It is a trip. They take it very serious. I would imagine. And so me and my buddy, our drummer, we're I mean, we had a blast, you know, but the the guy that was leading us, he, you know, it's like religion to him. So okay. And and we're kind of cracking jokes, like, oh yeah, on this wall is Elvis' Netflix password and this and that. He was not appreciating that.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

He would have loved Graceland 2, which was in Holly Springs, Mississippi. I think it's gone now because I if I remember correctly, I think both of the proprietors uh dad and son were murdered.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Right. He to he did mention this because this was just some random guy, right? Yes that started his own started his own thing.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

He had everything. Now I did do that tour. It was it was a common thing to do that tour. Uh and and yeah, it was it's remarkable. I but it was also it's one of those you know, I haven't had many experiences meeting people like this where you think, oh my gosh, there's not a bigger fan of anything than these people are to an unhealthy, bizarre sense. No, like do they really scour? And you know, this is pre-internet days. Do they really scour every single magazine for every single mention of Elvis? Yeah, you keep it. It's it was it's bizarre. And the house, I they also had some remarkably valuable things in there. It was really astonishing.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

So yeah, that is uh definitely special. Yes, but so you're in Memphis and you grew up there at until I'm not sure what age, but you eventually went to Berkeley, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:32

No, no, no. I I started at uh the University of Mississippi uh I was a poli sci major, but if you looked at my my uh my career my uh schedule, you would think, oh, this guy's a music major. I was actually on an orchestra scholarship for violin, but it wasn't much of a scholarship and because I'm not much of a player. Um and uh and then after two years, it was just there was just nothing left for me. So I transferred to University of North Texas to do their jazz program.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Gotcha. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Which is Berkeley-ish, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

I mean, that's where like North Texas kind of people started, or at least in my area, like Snarky Puppy, though a lot of those guys kind of came out of there, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Yeah, that was that was a that was a band and just bouncing around the classes and stuff. A lot of the classes you you're expected to put bands together and stuff. Which is also why certainly in this area, you'll you'll see just a remarkable number of people in my scene, the side the Dallas Sideman scene, who have Snarky Puppy in their resume.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

So yeah, yeah, because they've at one point they've kind of been in there. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's cool, man. So um, and are you where are you? I know you're teaching online right now. Are you teaching uh at a university as well?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

No, no, just just doing Zoom lessons. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Yeah, that's that's awesome. Um, yeah, because you teach my good buddy Alex Fetter, and he he considers you his executive producer of music, basically, is what I heard him say that on your podcast, too. Yeah, executive producer. That's pretty awesome, man.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Yeah, I forget how he put it to me, but it was basically I'm sort of captaining the ship somewhat while he takes lessons from a lot of people and such. Yeah, I what one of the things that's amazing about Alex is that he spends his money becoming a better guitar player. That's what he wants to do, you know. Taking lessons and just he's a sponge.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

He is, and he's always been that way. Um, so you as far as when you're going to school for music, was it always like I'm gonna be a side man? Or did you have aspirations of no, I want to go into teaching? Could for because for me, actually, I was trying to grind it out in LA, playing in bands, and I got to a point where nothing was working, I wasn't getting gigs, and I was like, I'm going back to music school and I want to teach at Northridge. That was my goal. I was like, I want to teach at you at Northridge, that's what I'm gonna do. And I, as I was doing it, I actually right when I was gonna transfer to Northridge, I just kind of freaked out and I was like, nah, I gotta, I'm gonna try the music thing just playing one more time. I ended up getting a gig and then I just kind of never looked back. But uh that was kind of my deal. So I'm curious as far as uh your direction. I mean, you were obviously majoring also in poly science, you had a lot of things going on, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yeah. I in my in my case, it I was a teenager when I decided I wanted to be a side man, and it was later, basically at the end of UNT, that I decided I didn't want to and uh went for uh some some advanced degrees in theology. And then while so while I was doing that, I was gigging and and teaching uh just to pay for it. And uh and right around that time, my friend from Mid Lake, this uh band that also came out of UN UNT uh when I was there, uh, he brought over their brand new music video to this song called Head Home. That and we put it in my Xbox 360, and this is 06, 07, and he put it in, and I just all at once thought, oh my gosh, I've made the wrong decision. I should never have done Sideman. I want to do this, I want to starve and and do originals something. And then, you know, it only took me another 13 years to finally get something out, but uh meticulous as I am. Uh but but yeah, the the early goal was to be a side man. I changed my mind somewhere in there, and now I'm a sideman. So some somehow, you know, and and the whole time, you know, in college, my dad is warning me, you know, you need a backup plan, you need to, you know, because music's not not uh you know, is isn't reliable. And lo and behold, here I am. I've just been music's been my backup plan this whole time. Every attempt to go and do something else has failed. And and yeah, yeah, music's the backup plan.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

So music's the backup plan. I have a friend that always tells me, he goes, Man, if you have a guitar, and it he's a singer, I'm a singer too, actually. And he goes, if you can sing a few songs, there's always gonna be work, you know? Uh-oh. Dang.

unknown 13:29

Wait, sorry, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

I know it happened. You must have got a call or something. And we're back. Yeah, so yeah, I did this. The same thing happened with my someone else I was working with. But um, so, anyways, yeah, side man. You what really got me interested in wanting to talk to you is you I can't remember exactly what it was, but you posted something about like being a side man, uh, and kind of you explained it in a way that really resonated with me. How it's just it's kind of a grind, you know, like sure. And I don't want to sound like I'm complaining, but then I commented on something you said, and um, and then I ended up saying something like, Well, it's le at least it's not like digging a ditch, and you said, Is it? And I was like, damn.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

I think I this is one of uh this is probably a your mileage may vary scenario, you know. But you know, there are a lot of cover bands in Dallas, and and some of the musicians are very, very happy to be in those cover bands and and are talking about how they made everybody happy that night. And that's that's great, you know. Right. I I don't see any significant difference between that and being a copier salesman. Um copier isn't I'm not trying to make a you know a uh an allegory there between being in a cover band and being a copier there, but I just mean being a salesman or or being a ditch digger. And uh yeah, I don't I don't know. I I I think there's just there's such a dignity to whatever you do joyfully, I think.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

You know, yeah, true that definitely. I mean, because when you do gigs, uh all not all gigs are created equal, right? Right. So sometimes you're just you're out there and you are with people that aren't on the same page where they're like, Yeah, we're making people smile. This is we're happy. We should be, you know, grateful to be here. And at the same time, you're kind of like, should we?

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Have you ever seen the videos of Sean Lane with his cover band from Memphis? I no, I you you really should check them out. There, the band was called the Willies, and I I remember growing up, you know, in high school, the Rock 103 concert calendar every weekend would say, and this weekend at So and So, the Willies featuring Sean Lane, it would always say that. Wow. And the first time I heard them, I just I couldn't believe how Sean was uh was forcing, not forcing, just Sean was the musical vision of that band. And so when they were doing covers of of whatever song, it's about Sean, it's about Sean's maximalist musical vision, and and the utter fearlessness with which he's and and a lot of this was in the 90s, you know, when when treading was the least cool thing you could do in the whole world, and and he's just absolutely has no concern for what anybody thinks. And I just see that and I just think that's an artist.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

And so there's there's an example of you know, a cover band where see, yeah, and I think a lot of people that are naive enough think like that's that's what I'm gonna do too. Yeah, I'm gonna go play Jesse's girl, but I'm gonna shred on it so hard that someone's gonna be like, Wow, who's that guy? You know, but that's usually not the case. Yeah, it's usually not the case. That's a pretty exceptional uh yeah, definitely Sean Lane playing. Yeah, because I've seen those some of those videos where he's playing like Bon Jovi, right? And he'll just go in the city. Oh, that's the Willie.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

It's always the Willie, it's always his cover band. It's oh my god, really amazing. And you gotta so when I was coming up, Sean Lane and Eric Gales were both rolling around that town, you know. So it's it was uh Wow. Yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

That was it. Was that in Dallas? Was that in Dallas? That was in Memphis. Memphis. Oh yeah, sorry. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Wow, so he was in Memphis too. That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Yeah, yeah. Um nice it was certainly the guitar community that held him as a treasure. I mean, I I say the guitar community. Obviously, I mean I I was in high school during the time, but also the uh you know the obviously the guitar community spit split pretty heavily uh in the uh at the advent of grunge, you know. Sure. Yeah, yeah. A lot of the guitar community didn't want anything to do with Sean. I thought it was stupid and whatnot. Um they're they're they didn't win the day. I'm happy.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

I'm happy that that yeah, absolutely. So um, so are you playing live with with your band with Fantastic Boom?

SPEAKER_00 18:14

No, I I was never happy with it for any number of reasons. I mean, uh my uh my driving force in all of art is just to be different from from anyone else, and yeah, uh and so when uh inevitably when we would try to do it live, and this was regardless of lineup, although some lineups were better, and basically every time I did it, it was some new lineup, which is not uncommon here in Dallas.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Uh it's the same for me too with with what I do, like it's just always different players when I'm gonna do my thing. It's just passion projects. So again, my buddies, yep.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Well, my passion is to just not sound like anybody else, and as soon as you try to do these things live, it just sounds more like a rock band, certainly than I wanted to. And and yeah, and so I I did I think a grand total of six or seven gigs, including one very odd one. Uh and and then that was it, you know. I I was happy with it. Uh I think I every once in a while I think about uh about trying it. Another thing I realized though was some of the songs, certainly the ones with voiceovers, uh, which there are a few. Um, I I didn't want to, I don't I don't like doing that stuff live. I don't I don't like having tracks. I don't I I want it to be something we can all carry. And yet the songs like How to Build a Hole has that Charles Manson voiceover. And it just was so painful to me to try to work it in. It felt so corny and and uh so what goes in that bridge? Well, I you know, it's there's there's not a part that goes in the bridge. Should I put a guitar solo there? Well, that was always a a trial and error thing for me. To me, if a guitar solo took the song to the next emotional plateau, then it was it was good. Even when I intended, certainly in the second album, I intended for there to be a ton of guitar solos. And it turns out, as the songs went, three of them sounded great when you put a guitar solo solo in them. And the others felt like I was just putting a guitar solo there because I'm a guitar player or something. And that's a guitar. And basically live a lot of the songs forced me into that decision. Uh, in addition to okay, now we sound like just drums in the room and a bass player in the room and guitars and stuff. It's yeah, it's it was it was they were all exceptionally painful for me the entire time, the entire gig, every rehearsal. I'm just thinking, oh my gosh, I don't like this, I don't like this. And and finally, there was just this day of I'm not gonna do this.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

I there's no point in terrorizing myself, but yeah, I could relate to that a lot. Um, and on top of that, I'm not sure for you, but for me, it's expensive, right? It is because to do that, you're like, you look at it and you go, I can't sustain this playing my music. I'd rather just make the music, like you said, how it sounds in my head, and just give it to people as opposed to I gotta pay my band because these are my buddies and I know what they charge. I'm not gonna blowball them. And it's just you end up going in debt just to play a couple shows.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

That's exactly that was exactly my experience.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Yeah, that's always that's I really went down that road, and it makes me sad because I want to do it, but it's the same, it's kind of the same thing where you're like, uh, I think it's more sustainable to just get my ideas, record them, you know, and have them mixed and placed exactly where you want to hear it, and just you know, the five people can go listen to it.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

I I did a gig with a drummer uh a few months ago who with whom I had never played, but uh kind of a uh bit younger guy. And he was talking about, you know, oh, Fantastic Boom. Yeah. You know, and he was he was excited by it. And then I realized in our conversation that he had only he only knew Fantastic Boom from hearing us live. And I pleaded with him, wait a minute, that's that's not what Fantastic Boom is. Please go listen to the record. This was a you know very limited uh facsimile, facsimile of what I intend Fantastic Boom to be. Every one of those songs was a very bastardized thing by the time you heard them.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

So yeah. Yeah, because getting some of those sonic moves, like you would probably need like four guitar players to really make that happen, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

And the whole time I'm thinking, I don't want, I barely want one guitar. You know, it's just it's it's also just a sound that I'm not always attached to and didn't want as much of. And and as soon as as soon as you do them live, you know, the keyboard, the the the piano patches are more or less the same. The and then there's a bunch of guitars to layer on top of them. What the really the only way I would do them now, and on occasion I I kick this idea around, is by just doing them more overtly ECM-ishly. Um, the ECM jazz label. I'm not sure if you're hip to that stuff. I'm not, no, but uh it's it's a it's a jazz label with a certain sound, and you've heard some of this, some of the stuff off of it, and it tends to be a a rather serious and often spacious sounding uh vibe. And uh so and it's just it's a vibe where I love the sound of all the acoustic instruments, and I think it would be an appropriate uh sound for for Fantastic Boom. Although if I were to do a third album, it you know, it wouldn't be that anyway, but yeah, but but on occasion I kick that idea around.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

But but yeah, um, as far as like because you've studied so much and you're well versed in jazz, I'd imagine, from just you know, playing it all the time. How did it come about to you're like, okay, I want to create this this art that's that I can be you know known for or whatever? Did you try and go like playing jazz? And did it just come out like like the way your music sounds? Because it it was yeah, you know, and I think the ops does that make sense? Or were you kind of running were you running from it more?

SPEAKER_00 24:31

It wasn't that it wasn't I I wasn't taking jazz into consideration at all. Uh what I was there, you know. I don't know if you went through this, but when you when you decide I'm gonna start making my own music, you look across the you inevitably you face the landscape of all the music that you like, yeah. And it's an enormous breadth of stuff, you know. You like yeah, this and you like this, but these things don't always coexist together particularly.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

And it was a uh it was putting on Beach House Bloom. Uh it not the first time, but I think I hadn't listened to it for uh you know for a while. And I had already I had started writing some stuff um by then, but it was I remember there was this moment of hearing that album again where I thought this is it, this is the vibe I want to go for. Because it just this dopamine rush of yes, I for me rock when it's done well, and of course, I mean it's often not perhaps usually not. Um, I mean, that goes for every genre, is usually not done well, I guess, but um the mix of the colors and the I I am particularly drawn to the sound of not trying too hard. Yeah. The sound of of of it. Uh it sounds like authenticity, and it sounded like, in particular uh later when my lyrics started taking uh taking shape. And particularly in this the second album, seeing okay, there is a genre of lyrics here that I think is more or less my own. Um there's a vocabulary, there's a a list of topics that I'm sure songs have never been about. And that indie rock and the sound of even the sound of being injured or being exhausted is the right vehicle for that. It it accentuates what those lyrics are talking about. And so for me, it was more I am doing indie rock because I love the colors, I love the the overall vibe. But as I was writing it, there was this uh recurring realization at uh at several points uh that there is this skill set that I'm bringing over that I could use here in order to do indie rock that doesn't sound like other people. And and so uh I started relying on that. And the biggest one of them all was wait a minute, you know what? I can just kind of burn on guitar, and that's a very much a no-no in indie rock. I mean, that's a that's yes, you are not supposed to do that. Even some people I'm sure are fine players, they still, when they do indie rock stuff, they play as if they have clubs for hands, and and there was that decision during the first album to not do that, to just be myself and to let there be these giant guitar solos that where I don't pretend I can't play. And then what came out was this mix of stuff that's like okay, good. I'm a jazz shred guitar, yeah, something. I don't I I don't know what it is, and and it it kind of worked together.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

So yeah, it just comes out as you. Yeah, there was a song called This that you the solo on that is epic, right? So but it but it's fitting, it's fitting. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Is uh I I yeah, you when you said it was epic. I don't mean to I don't want people to replay play that. This guy's a chart smelling his own farts.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

No, well, I think so. It's it's a great sounding solo. Yeah, it's a really hard thing though when you have so many places you can go in music, and and but then if you go too many places, you're gonna start to alienate everybody, right? With as a l as a listener, like if you go too fusion in in something that shouldn't be fusion, it's like, oh, I liked it until you did that weird jazz chord, you know. Um so it's a it's a tricky spot to find something that seems natural, um, that can actually sit in its own place and people can relate to.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

It's I I will say that in my case, I at least the one thing I have and and what what it was was some early advice from David Torn who said just make the album you want to hear.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Just make just make the art that you want. And and that successfully warded away every single every single uh consideration of whether people would like it at every turn. Yeah that that proved to be a you know that that I think was a godsend. Certainly his uh his uh his advice was so definitely.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

I I know Rick Rubin says the same thing, and then like Prince always said, just write for the trash can, basically. Like who cares, you know? And that's a good way to feel, you know, when you're fascinating when I say it. Yeah, because it's just like you're writing for yourself, you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

So yeah, I guess you like it, and and especially and you know, in that case, I I always figured, you know, whatever it is that I'm into, uh however hideous it may be, it I surely just the sheer number of people on on earth, I'm representative of a class of people who like basically the same stuff. Yeah, and maybe it's 0.0000001% of people. But just make the art that you want to hear and then go find those people. Don't try to convince the others, and and certainly don't let that question of will people like this ever come into the creative process. True.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

I know it's very that's kind of a that's a really bad thought to get into. It's funny with original music too, and I'm guilty of this also, where someone will, hey, I just I released a new song and they send it out, and you have it like on your phone for months, and then you see that person and you go, Oh my gosh, I never listened to your song, and then you get the idea of like, oh, this is how it is when I send my song.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Yes, and someone it feels like charity, like we're all doing charity for each other.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

I know, and someone three years later that maybe you've been on tour with for months will finally, three months into the tour, go, hey, I listened to your song. And you're like, awesome, which one? Because I don't know, I haven't released a song in four years.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Yes, yes. Have you ever had them quote your band name to you wrong?

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Uh no. Well, if it was under my name, then yes, but what is your band name?

SPEAKER_00 31:15

I I have not been hit for this.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

Well, I have a hard rock uh hard rock project called Patri Patrito. Petrito. How do you spell that? Yeah, P-A-T-R-E-E-T-O. Patrito. And this is a very, you know, it's kind of a one-dimensional just rock, and I did it on purpose so I wouldn't get too crazy and start getting fusion-y. I said, you know, I'm just gonna do this hard rock thing so I can just put it in its little spot. Um, so that is that. And then anything under my name is kind of it's uh it could be anything, you know, maybe rock, acoustic, whatever. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

I I've always admired I I think there is there's there's something to be said for not doing everything in a single project, partly because I mean if you if you compare it to a point that I've made with with some students before is there there are a lot of players who are omnipotent, but generally those players are the ones you you associate the least with a particular style. In other words, they don't have a style. And whereas the people who are limited by something and only do a something, you know, uh a small subset of what of what a more capable player can do or more capable writer can do, they have a style and and a lot of times, you know, that that that entire piece of art, you know, that album, that guitar solo, it could be anything, uh, is it has a color that something that has all the colors doesn't have, you know. I I think that's I think that's really important. And especially if you're if you're if you're building any given thing around the thing that you do, you know, and you're not trying to be like someone else, then you're you know, you're you're a lot more likely to come out with something a little idiosyncratic, you know, which is kind of what you're looking for. But yeah, my take it back to a previous point.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

My my hard rock thing came out of actually, I basically I got this gig and then I immediately got fired, and I got really depressed, and I said, you know what? I'm gonna make a bunch of new guitar demos, and so I'll have some new stuff of me like shredding, it's just gonna be guitar, and I started writing these songs, and they just kind of turned out to be songs that were like hard rock songs, okay. And then and then I was like, Well, I think I should just sing on this, and then it became very much not a guitar demo, and I just basically made my first EP and I was like, I guess this is it, I guess that's better. So that's yeah, stuff just happens weird like that, you know? Um yeah, so so I'm curious. Uh with your teaching, um like I'd imagine you get a lot of interesting students. Like, do you have like some like um well, Alex Fetter, obviously. Like, how do you how did he even find you?

SPEAKER_00 34:14

That's um, I it's he said that someone sent him there there's a there's one video that it kind of makes the rounds on occasion of me playing a solo over a Bonnie Raitt song. Uh uh and I in fact uh and in uh YouTube I don't even have it labeled as that. So, but uh somebody had sent him that solo, and uh he I I'm not I I think maybe he bumped into me a second time on Instagram, or maybe he just found me on Instagram right then. But yeah, but yeah, most of you know, I do get a lot of students who are very, very good already, and it's it's obviously intimidating, and and what you're doing is you know maybe a bit like Alex put it, you know, you're just pointing in a direction like look over there. I think your answers are over there. Go do this thing, go dig like this over there.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

It's so important for for the student, and it's probably so fun for you.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

It's way more fun than beginner lessons because I don't like talking mechanics, right? Yeah, talking about strumming and stuff. I mean, I I'll do it, of course, but but I would ray way rather uh talk about uh you well, I think what generally people think of as more uh abstract and difficult to teach uh concepts that maybe you just have to be born with and stuff. And I don't buy that at all. I think you can master them, I think it's habit, they're all habit formations. Yeah, and in my case, something I say all the time is I have I have no talent. I I've never rolled out of bed good at anything.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

I just yeah, we are very much alike. I say that when I used to teach a lot, I would all I always say that I'm like, man, it took me so long to learn everything, you know. It's just yeah, I I was definitely I picked up a guitar and I was like, I have no this is not there was no natural anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

So I think in my case, I I mean the one thing I could do is just analyze things really well. And and and that's what I ended up doing. There they were just little breakthroughs of wait a minute, this is what would make one consistently play great solos or or whatever it is. I mean, that that's a that's a that's a much bigger category, but but do this thing uh uh uh in playing great solos. And uh and it you know, the way that I progressed, it turns out, you know, if you progress very analytically and propositionally, and then in a way that you come up with an exercise to therefore form this habit, this mental or physical habit in you, um, such that then you play really good solos all the time, or or such such that then you see a lot of chord voicings that people don't see. Um, it turns out when you when you get good that way, this stuff is easily givable to someone else, you know. Right because it was all propositions to begin with. It wasn't talent, it wasn't that I rolled out of bed good at chords, it was that you know I thought of a way. Exactly. And I can show you that way, you know, and that's what that's what that's what's so conducive to to teaching. And and again, why at least you know, when the really good students come, uh and they they come and they're really good. And uh and it's like I I've at least always got some stuff to show them that'll make them think think of something a different way, or or just um well, think of things my way for better or worse, and then they leave maybe worse players than before. Who knows?

SPEAKER_02 37:45

Yeah, and it's probably easier easier for you to just see something that as opposed to the individual realizing it about themselves, right? You you could probably just say, like, well, what are you thinking about when you play? Or like, play me something, and you could go, Well, have you thought about this? And that person would be like, Oh you know, um, because it's so mental. Once you get to the point where you can play, I'll listen to solos of mine or just my plane sometimes, and I can hear all the problems in my plane. Like, as I'm doing, I'm just like, why did I move from that that phrase? I should have just played that phrase again. Why am I playing so many notes? Why didn't I just sit on that note? But then you go, why can't I just think of this while I'm doing it? You know? So it's that's right, it's so mental. It's and and it's and it's not always the same, at least with my plane, it's not always the same. Some nights I'm focused, I'm relaxed, I'm thinking of these things, or I'm not thinking of them, and I could tell, but then some nights you're just totally off, and your mind is somewhere else, and trying to keep that consistency is really tricky, you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

I wonder if you're seeing too many ways to do it.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

I mean, in the case of art formation, or it's always that, right? Yeah, it's always that. Yeah, yeah. And then getting in, I'll sometimes just get in my head about yeah, overthink, just overthinking, you know, just overthinking when you're playing it when it's parts that you know, and you're just like overthinking, staying relaxed, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Yeah, staying relaxed is the big one. One of the things that I'm most excited about is uh, and this goes to just a physical relaxation. Is that something I've noticed for years and years is that all of uh all of my friends, all of my peers, they seem to have a very relaxed left hand and can do things uh in a way that I know my left hand is supposed to look like. I know that I'm supposed to be that relaxed. And and I know I'm sure that it would be amazing and I could communicate a million ideas if my left hand were so relaxed. But but even with nines at standard tuning, I couldn't, I couldn't do it. I literally couldn't relax and still make the notes come out nicely. I have a very bendy style that is kind of can kind of be exhausting sometimes if the string tension is too high. And then my chops were never particularly reliable, you know. Um all of my chops are based on hammer ons and pull-offs or virtually all of it. And and yet they weren't that great. But last year, experiment I started experimenting with tiny strings. I went down to eights, and then now I'm at nines down half step. And it's been the the absolute best decision I've made in probably decades of guitar playing because suddenly my left hand is habitually relaxed, there's not there's not an issue there, but so much so that there just isn't a physical governor from my left hand. I don't even think about what my left hand can do. I just I just do what I'm what I'm thinking. And uh this has been easily the most exciting era of of guitar playing for me, and it's mainly been around let's just cheat, you know? Let me just embrace the fact that I'm weaker than everybody. And uh because that seems to be what it is, and and uh let's just tune these nines down a half step or play eights, which garnered me tons of ridicule from my friends, which is great. And Billy Gilbert. And it turns out it was the right decision. It was the right decision. Yeah. Just making it to where this is a non-issue. Chops are a non-issue. Now all of your ram space, because all you you say overthinking. Very it's uh just go, this will be hand in glove with what you just said. I playing music at a high level is a ram space game. It's what what parts of this activity do you does your ram space need to be focused on for you to do it well? Most of those parts should be auto, you should practice in such a way that a lot of it becomes automated. All the chop stuff should be automated. There's you, you know, you you sit there and you think about how you're how you're picking or how you're doing whatnot for a long time so that you can then never think about it again. Or, you know, let's face it, years from now you'll you'll think, am I really could I be better at that? And button. But that's you know, it's the can of worms. The I think the full analogy is it's a it's a can full of worms, and every once in a while you open it up, you dump the worms out, and you count them, and you you categorize them, and then you're all right, all right, there's 17 worms, and you dump them back in the the can, seal it back up, and you put it up there, and it you never think about it again. That's chops, that's most of the mental things on on guitar. You can narrow your RAM space down to focusing on a particular couple of things, and those particular couple of things had better be the things that plug into the human listener. If the human listener, when they hear those things, they go, Oh, that's beautiful. And they don't even know why.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Uh that's that's that's the way you become a great improviser or chord playing, is you're basically, you know, reverse engineering. Here's what what all of us, all of us humans, this isn't this isn't the same as that stylistic decision of will people like this? It's just there are there are certain universal things. The way that a minor scale sounds sad to anyone who's it sounds sadder than a major scale to anyone whose brain is properly functioning. Uh there are things in improvising that that plug into universal humanity that people latch on to. And in fact, a point I've made, you know, when we say that something's melodic, when somebody says that that was really melodic, they I think unknowingly mean that it was rhythmically interesting. It's not an intuition. That is interesting, yeah. And so when you see these patterns working, or I mean, uh it's it's like playing expressively. Playing expressively is some vague moniker that we put on, you know what must be some mysterious thing that some that Jeff Beck was born with.

SPEAKER_01 43:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:59

And might. Mike Landau was born with, and the rest of us can't can't have it because we weren't born with it or whatever. And turns out that's that's horse crap. Right. It's it is there are very tangible, very mechanical things that not only you can do that that where the listener goes, Oh, that's really melat, that's really uh uh expressive, that's really emotional sounding, but you can make them habits in your playing through how you practice, and then you never think about them again, and then it's all it's all just tied to the one the the one place that your RAM space is, which is yeah, different place.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

So wow, this is great. I feel like I need to send you a Venmo. Um, what are your thoughts? For me, a huge part of this too, um, just being confident and make is just tone. Your tone. I mean, for me, I say a lot of times, a good show and a bad show for me is just based on my tone. If my tone sounds good to me, I'm gonna make better choices. I'm gonna trust, I'm not gonna think as much, but if my tone's bad, um that's when I'm gonna start going like uh like this last note didn't sound very good. So I think this next note, I need to do something else to try and make it sound good. And then you're like, ah, you're just chasing something. So getting that tone right is so important. I think I completely agree.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Yeah, you know, it's we're we're in the sounding good uh game, you know. It's like if you if you can play it, uh there's there's that passage in uh uh is it Hebrews 12, 13, uh where it's like if I if I can speak in the tongues of men and angels, but I don't have love, I'm just a clinging symbol. If I can ponder all mysteries, but I don't have love, I'm so-and-so. It's like that in guitar or just in music with tone. If you can play all the fanciest crap in the world, yeah, but you sound bad, then you sound bad. Right, right. And and and it's it's the the bottleneck. If you sound bad, then you sound bad. Then you sound bad, then you sound bad, then it sounded bad. It doesn't matter what you did if you did some fancy crap, it sounded really stupid.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

Yeah, because your tone stinks, yeah. Your tone stinks. I know you gotta put in the time for that. Yeah, I I did a solo one time, I went to Musicians Institute and uh, you know, with a lot of these other kids, and Alan Hines was there, and he was do you know Alan Hines?

SPEAKER_00 46:24

I I I don't uh I he gets mentioned to me a lot. I'm like, I've seen him and I've seen a little I've seen clips of him, and he sounds awesome.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

But this is great. He I when you see him in person, you realize how much of a pocket he has, the way he plays just really fluid. Anyways, he happened to be the guy that was like running this live performance workshop that I was playing guitar on. We played like a we played a I think a band of gypsies uh Jimi Hendrix song, which I love. It's kind of my wheelhouse. He gets to the solo, and there's like a it's like a break, like gonk, and he just solo, right? Everybody was chowdering the solo, and I was like sitting back, like, I can do that. This is gonna be easy. So I get up there, but I had to just plug into whatever amp, and it was like a a half stack like crate. Yes, yes. I play at the solo, and I'm sitting there, and we finished the song, and he goes, That was a good solo, and the worst tone I've ever heard in my life.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

First of all, the fact that you were able to pull off a good solo in that circumstance is you're a trooper.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

Well, I knew it, but I was like, This, I this there's nothing I can do. I guess I could have twisted some knobs or something, but it was a funny thing because I'm like, I agree with you, that was like horrible.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

I don't think I could have played a good solo in that. I mean, it's just it's so difficult. It's so hard, yeah. Just keep playing when yeah, every time you hit the guitar, it sounds like crap, you know.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

It's so hard. That's why I really I love playing acoustic guitar because when you get a good acoustic, it just sounds good, and you just tune it, and you could go out and play, and you really don't have to worry about much except the way you play it, you know. So sometimes just night to night on an electric for whatever reason. Like I was playing last night, and for whatever reason I was in tune, my b strings sounded out of tune, and I was just like, Yes, oh my god, that's a thing. It's just like this this instrument, what am I doing?

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Yes, so it's a tough thing. I think acoustic on a microphone is in headphones is one of the greatest sounds that he is. It's glorious, man. Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing, and then I just get to where I'm playing with reverbs, like oh, because they all sound like oh, this is amazing too. This is amazing, too.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

Yeah, oh, I love it. Well, I don't want to take too much of your time. This has been really awesome, actually. I've I've learned a lot. I okay, so I uh doing my you know very limited research here. There was some article that someone noted you accomplice, accomplished philosopher, which I would have to agree with, but then right under it said he has proven that shampoo is better, period.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

I that sounds like maybe Noel Johnson wrote that. Uh because uh because it's uh obviously maybe not obvious, but uh a Billy Madison reference.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

Oh yeah, shampoo is better. Stop looking at me, swan. Okay, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

It could have been several different people. My when we were uh when we were in college, the original bass player of uh Rival Sons and I and another guy had a trio where we basically did we did fusion stuff, yeah, and we were called Telly Hoohoo, which is from the the gibberish scene.

SPEAKER_02 49:52

I know it, I know it well. Yes, that's that's great, man.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

You you have to send me that. I want to see it. It sounds vaguely familiar, like maybe it's all per se. I will.

SPEAKER_02 50:01

Yeah, awesome, man. Anything else you want to add? Everyone, definitely go check out Fantastic Boom on iTunes, Spotify. These two albums out there. Uh and there's a couple other fantastic fantastic boom things that might come up. It's not Shaggy. Don't listen to Shaggy.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

It's so frustrating. It is so frustrating being a nobody because and and not even being able to get at the top of a very perfectly worded search of your your own music. That's or one of them in particular, the one that just kills me to this day is the way Apple music forces me into a particular uh forces everyone, I guess, into a particular capitalization. I although I doubt they're forcing everyone. I'm sure we could find some counterexamples, but um I have a song called August and Everything After. August, August, I mean, not to it's it's very clear if you're listening to my music closely enough that August there is the adjective August. Um and uh and so it needs to be lowercase. It need it very much needs to be lowercase. And so I even put in parentheses to to make it clear this was not an accident that I I put it lowercase. And nope, that's sorry, Apple Music won't allow it. And when you're a nobody, you just have no recourse. It's just yeah, so so now on Apple Music, it it just puts you on the wrong. I I've I agonized over every title, I agonized over every sound. There's not a there's not a moment or a lyric that that wasn't, you know, a hundred hours of agony, you know, am I absolutely certain that's right. And uh and uh so for them to just not give me the bare minimum creative control over my own stuff is is is mad. Yeah, I hate everybody.

SPEAKER_02 51:56

It's rough. I've had a couple of same similar instances. One was my own fault. My my first uh single with Petrito, it's called Riot, it's very like hardcore punk rock. But I I didn't know what I was doing, and so I just posted this song under Petrito, but I thought it would be like fun to do Petrito in all caps, right? As a title. Wow, good idea. Then it comes, you know, three years later. I actually have an EP and I'm like, let's release the next one, Petrito. Like a normal person, I just put capital P Petrito. Now it's two artists. So this people look it up and go, Well, there's two of them. I'm like, yeah, it's both, it's both me, but that one, and to do it, I would have to take that one down, right? Read and I'm just like, it's I'm just leaving it for now. So yeah, it's fandom, it's fan, it's madness, but you know, this is what we do. Well, thanks, man. I guess I need to take a I need to take a guitar lesson, I guess, at some point.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

Oh, maybe you're you are very welcome.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

So all right, brother. Well, uh, yeah, I'll text you that article, and I hope you enjoy the rest of your day. Please do. Thank you very much. All right, man. See ya. See ya. Thank you, Mark. And thank you, everybody, for once again tuning in to the No Flakes Podcast. This is episode 10, and this will conclude season one of No Flakes. I will be back in a few weeks after a little summer break. And with some new guests, new conversations. Until then, everybody please catch up and listen to all ten of these episodes. You can learn about everybody's amazing experiences just making it through this world of music. You can find us on Instagram and YouTube and Spotify. See you later. Until next time.