S1 Ep8: A Murdered Child Came to Her for Help / Ivy Sunderji

She Didn't Know She Was Psychic. Then a Murdered Child Came to Her for Help.

Ivy Sunderji, a TV writer and USC screenwriting professor, was a lifelong skeptic who believed you die and that's it. Then her fiancé, the love of her life, drowned in a surfing accident, and everything changed.

In the days after his death, Ivy began hearing his voice. Then she started seeing spirits she didn't recognize. She assumed she was losing her mind. But what happened next made it impossible to dismiss.

A young girl appeared to her in the night — with her dead fiancé by her side. The girl said she was missing. That no one knew yet. And she asked Ivy to help the police solve her murder.

This is a true crime story. It's also a love story, a ghost story, and the story of a woman who had to come out of the medium closet — while a murdered child was waiting.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

A girl, a young girl, was murdered. Murdered. Jesus. Okay. And she shows up in spirit form.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

With my dead fiance.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

With your dead fiance and says what?

SPEAKER_01 0:17

She says, help me. I'm a missing girl. No one knows yet. Daddy did it. Daddy did it.

SPEAKER_05 0:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 0:33

Our world is magnificent. Filled with life in every imaginable form. But what if at the root of all these diverse forms there was one energy? One conscious energy that created everything we know by becoming everything we know. Including you. Come with us as we peek behind the curtain of what we call reality and explore the limitless wonders of consciousness. In the realization lab. Welcome everyone to another episode of Realization Lab. I'm Jay Sherrick. Right over there we have David Ron. He's here once again, my friend and writing partner. And David, we have a guest with us in the Realization Lab studio. In the laboratory. I see her. Yeah. I see her. She's right there. Her name is Ivy Sunderjee. Ivy, thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

She's laughing already.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

You haven't even said anything? I haven't done nothing.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

I feel the spirit of comedy in the room.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Yes. The spirit of comedy.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

So, Ivy, tell us you're here obviously for a reason, but you actually are many things. Tell us a little bit about who you are. What are the things that you do? First of all, you're a writer, first of all, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Aaron Ross Powell That was like the main thing I do is I'm a TV writer.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

I've worked on the shows Greenleaf and Delilah, and I did that for like six years. And then for the past like five years, I've been more of like an EP pilot writer.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

But you're also a teacher of screenwriting.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

I've been a screenwriting professor at USC.

SPEAKER_03 2:20

Which, by the way, is like the best, one of the best film schools in the world, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Aaron Ross Powell I mean I went there for graduate school, so I returned home basically.

SPEAKER_03 2:28

Aaron Ross Powell So you're a very busy writer and a teacher of writing.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

And there's a twist.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

And there's a twist because you wouldn't be here on our podcast if it were a writing podcast. No, it really is.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

We got nothing to say about it.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

We rarely talk about writing. Aaron Powell So what would you say then is the twist that has uh brought our paths together here?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Aaron Ross Powell So um I'm also an evidential medium.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Ah, evidential medium.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Aaron Ross Powell Yes. Which I didn't know what that was a couple years ago.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

I still don't know what that is.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

I'm happy to tell you more about it, but I wasn't a believer in anything, by the way. Like I spent most of my life thinking you die and you're dead and there's no afterlife, there's no God, there's no nothing.

SPEAKER_03 3:06

Aaron Ross Powell You have unique skills which we are going to explore, but let's go back for a second and talk about your past as you were beginning to allude to. You grew up where?

SPEAKER_01 3:16

So okay. I grew up in rural Idaho.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

I don't know if you follow true crime at all, but the University of Idaho murders that happened like a couple years ago. I did not do them. I was born a mile away from there in Moscow.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

Who was who was killed in the university? Four students. Four students. Those four students. Oh, the recently.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

I was born like a mile. My dad went to the University of Idaho and like Did he do it? I hope not.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

All right. Now they got the guy who did it. Oh, I thought you meant back back a while ago there were famous murder. No, you're not.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

I was it was the sleepiest town on the planet, and I grew up there. In what I would describe as like a very like conservative religious community.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

Were you going to church and stuff?

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Oh, that is the main activity. Like we went on Sunday morning, we went on Sunday nights, we went on Wednesday, we went on Friday. I went to a Christian grade school that was um very fundamentalist Christian. Like they were creationists.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

That's the one where there there were no dinosaurs or there are dinosaurs, just not when scientists were.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Oh no, no, no. Oh, no dinosaurs.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

I actually have a story about that. We went on a field trip to a museum in Utah when I was in first grade. Yeah. Or second grade. And they made us yell at the scientists when they were telling us about dinosaurs because we were we were told they were a hoax.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

Dinosaurs are a hoax.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Planted like that dinosaur bones were like planted as a hoax. By the Jews. We didn't even know what Jews were.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Don't be ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

I had never met a Jew. I know, I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Your school was teaching you that that people had planted the dinosaurs to fool you into thinking what?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

To not believe in God and that the Bible wasn't true. So we had to yell at the scientists, were you there?

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Which is actually there. Which is the time of the dinosaurs?

SPEAKER_01 5:01

A fair question. But also for you there. And then we got kicked out of the science museum. We got put on a bus and they took us to a farm instead, and the farmer showed us how to behead chickens.

SPEAKER_03 5:13

Farmers showed you how to be what?

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Behead a chicken.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

Behead a chicken. Behead a chicken.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

And because we got kicked out of the science museum for being obnoxious. That was like kind of my childhood in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_03 5:25

Wow. Well, what what was your attitude now? As a you're a young person, you're surrounded by this mm lot of fundamental Christian thought and all these fake dinosaurs.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

I know. I remember when I was like eight years old, I like burst into tears because I told my mom I was like, I don't believe in God. Because like I was told like you go to hell if you don't believe in God. And then my mom was like, it's okay to be scared and it's okay to not know. And she's like, and if there is a God, I just can't imagine he would punish a little girl for being confused.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Aaron Ross Powell Wow, you had a really wise mom.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

No, my mom has been like my ally and champion in like everything.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

We talked briefly Ivy's early career. It was on own, it was on Oprah's episode. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

And like Oprah was in the first season. She's lovely, by the way. People like her.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

And then we arrived in the reason for the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

So this sort of gets to the other wrinkle in my life. My fiance drowned in a surfing accident. Your face, yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_03 6:21

Wait, okay, so let's you have a fiance.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

So my fiancee, he and I met uh when I was in grad school at USC.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

My sister, who was in an accident, ended up in the hospital. Her doctor was this really good looking Indian guy with green eyes, who I like met him and was instantly struck by him. And I was like, this man, I love this man, I'm in love with this man. He was really nice to me.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

This is interesting because your last name is Sunderjee, which I didn't think growing up in Idaho. That was not my last name. Yeah, okay. Yes, I see how this is going.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

I met this man and I was like, oh my God, that's the man. I was like, I'm supposed to be with that man. And then I was like, there's no way I'm gonna end up with my sister's doctor. Uh and a voice came into my head that if it was meant to be, we'd meet again someday, and that I need to live my life for now, and that life would find a way to bring us back together if we were supposed to be together. Right. Um I had a vision of a whole life with him while I was trying to process like what I was feeling about him. I saw the house we ended up living in.

SPEAKER_04 7:28

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

But I also saw myself standing in the back of the house getting news from the police that he drowned in a surfing accident.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

We saw that way back then.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Back then.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Way before you even started dating.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

Yeah. This is this is um and I didn't believe it. Right. But this is right after you've met the doctor who's caring for your sister.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

The day I met him. The day you met him and I went home and like lay on the couch and I was like, I don't know what's happened to me. This man is like, there's something here. I feel like I think I don't believe in souls or soulmates, but I think he's mine. And I was like, I love with him, and I don't know why. And it wasn't like I I was very confused what was happening, but I just I felt like I was meeting someone I had been looking for for a very long time, and that I had known him forever. And he radiated light and goodness, and he was so wonderful. He actually really helped my sister. Um he was just he was a magical person.

SPEAKER_03 8:23

Right. And at the same time, you had a vision of the house that you would one day be living in.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Trying to cope with these feelings. I lay there on the couch being like, I am not well. And I was like, I was like, uh I thought I was just imagining this. I thought I was imagining a life with him, and I was like, even if we got together, probably wouldn't work out. We'd probably break up. And I was like, no, I think we'd get back together. And then I was like, and I think we'd be happy together. And I was like, then I saw like even if we ended up together, it might still end in tragedy. And after that, I was like, no, no, but I think I'm in love with him and I think he's my person. And then I heard that voice, like, if it's meant to be, you'll meet again, but just go live your life for now. I just thought those were my thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

But the specificity of of the tragedy, you you had an insight that it would have to do with surfing?

SPEAKER_01 9:13

I saw he drowned surfing, and I didn't even know if this man surfed. Like I didn't he and I he and I talked for like maybe 20 minutes while he was this was from like a 20-minute conversation. Makes me sound deranged. And I even like was thinking, like, how could I see him again? Like, could I sit at a coffee shop near the hospital and help turn into him? I was like, no, no, that would be too weird. Like, you can't do something like that to someone. And I knew like there's nothing I could do.

SPEAKER_04 9:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

And I was like, I'm powerless to fate, basically, here. And if and I didn't believe in fate, so I was like, it's just it sucks. But I was like, he's not my person. Or if he is, like, this isn't how it'll happen. Three years later, I got a job on the show Wilfred as a director's assistant. My friend sol Susan sold her house. The house sale was like a very contentious thing with the buyer. She didn't sell it to the highest bidder for some reason. She just had this instinct that she should sell it to this guy instead. They became friends in the house sale, and she set us up on a blind date, not knowing anything.

SPEAKER_03 10:11

And it was Dr. Sunderjee. Wow. That's insane. And was that the house that you saw in the vision? Mm-hmm. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

And I hadn't seen that house yet. I hadn't met Susan yet. Wow. And then I got to the house, and like I was just so not a believer in any of this that I just was like, the house seemed familiar. And I was like, that's but I was like, I just have a good imagination or something. I don't know. I never I had just compartmentalized this thing in myself off, and I never went there. I never I couldn't ask myself what it meant because I was afraid to know.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

And so I just didn't think about it.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

All right. So you uh were set up on a blind date with this young, handsome doctor.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Handsome surfing doctor.

SPEAKER_03 10:54

Surfing doctor, and it was it just magic right away?

SPEAKER_01 10:58

On the first date. It was like i it was like a a missing piece of my heart.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Aaron Ross Powell And did you guys talk about the fact that you met three years b before?

SPEAKER_01 11:05

No.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Did you know it was him from three years before? No.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

You didn't know it? We found out a year later it was him. So even though you So you didn't even remember? I have a terri apparently have a terrible memory for men I've met in the past.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Really? Yes. I would have thought Yeah, I would have thought you would have immediately been like, oh my god, it's him.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

So that I it was like one fleeting feeling for a week that then I really had to push aside and live my life. And I really did live my life presently. And the only thing I carried forward from that was that I knew I wanted to date a doctor. I was like, I think a doctor would be good for me. That was as far as my brain could be. So we were together for a year and my anxiety was actually a real problem in the relationship. And I got so anxious I broke up with him because I was like worried about the like I guess the economic difference between the two of us because he was pretty well off and I had nothing. Yeah, I I had had a win as a writer, I'd gotten a writing fellowship at Universal, and I was like having all these great meetings, but it takes a long time to make money. And I had $17 in my bank account and I was like panicking. And I was like, I'm not worthy of love in this condition. And I pushed him away.

SPEAKER_04 12:26

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

And I like he had just given me a key to his house at that point, and I'd I put it back in his hand, and I was like, I can't take this. And I like st left and I felt True to your premonition, you guys broke up. He did break up.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

And then you got back together.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

And then he wrote me this like lovely email and he sort of like spoke to my fears in a way that really made me see that like what I was afraid of wasn't what he was actually dealing with. And and he's like, You brought a lot of light and joy to my life, and he's like, I'm so grateful for that. And I hope even if it doesn't work out between us, we can be friends. And he's like, I want to respect you that if this is your choice, but I'm very, very sad about it. And I'm sorry I didn't live up to it, basically. And I was like, oh no, oh no. So I was like, can we please talk? And we talked like a week later and got back together and we drove to a party in Glendale at his um at his friend's house to sort of be like, We were back together. Bad party. And for some reason, I had this cute little convertible at that point, and then we drove in my little convertible on like surface streets through Glendale, and we drove past the hospital that my sister had been at. And like I met him over in Santa Monica. Right. So I wasn't thinking he was a doctor from Glendale.

SPEAKER_04 13:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

As we drove past the hospital, I was like, Oh god, I met this lovely doctor there when my sister was like there briefly in the hospital from an accident years ago. And he's like, When was that? And I was like, Oh, I think this was like probably like 2010, 2011. He's like, you know, that's when I where I did my like internship. It was his internship for the year after medical school. He's like, I was a doctor there then. And I was like, I was like, oh my god, you were a doctor. And he's like, I don't remember that. And like I had I had bangs back then. Like I looked like a weird west or east side hipster back then, and now I had like long, like surf hair, and like we both he had longer hair then, and his hair was now short, and like just those little superficial things. Like you don't expect to meet someone again in a different context like that, or like you don't put it together, yeah. You don't expect to be set up on a blind date with someone that you've met before.

SPEAKER_03 14:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Like you assume if it's a blind date that you haven't met. That's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Um that must have been a crazy, like that moment when when you both realize that. I mean, that must have been a very powerful moment.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Yeah, so like I remember we actually pulled my car over, and well, we're both sort of like, What the hell? And then he's like, I'm so glad we are giving this another shot, basically. And he kissed me and the side of the road in my car, and like it was a very romantic moment.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

And then I was like, I'm gonna break up with you again.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Never again. Like he and then he gave me the key to his house back, and he's like, Don't ever give this back to me. This is your house. Oh.

SPEAKER_03 15:13

And like the house you had seen in the preparation, dude.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Did you remember when you realized it was the doctor from three years ago? Did you remember your feelings for him from three years ago?

SPEAKER_01 15:21

I remembered my feelings. I didn't really remember the part about him drowning. Thank God.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

Right, but you remembered that he was someone special that you longed for in some fashion after you met him.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

I yeah, that was a transformative moment. Like you don't forget a vision like that. That exactly, you don't forget a feeling like that ever.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Like there are some people you meet them and you're just like, it's like you're struck down by God. I don't know. Or it's like you've been struck by lightning. And like you know when you feel it. And like when people describe love at first sight, I do think that there's a spiritual component to that now for some people. Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

And there's also, you know, we're told we have all these souls who we've been with in many different iterations, and when you see one again, there's a there can be a there's a moment of recognition. Okay, so you've had this kind of quirky, magical, romantic connection to this man, and you've sort of already told us that uh this has got a tragedy. A bit of a a hard bump coming up. So tell tell us a little bit about that. How did that happen?

SPEAKER_01 16:26

So before that, my sister was in a paragliding accident. And then I'll answer your question. So my sister in 2019, and this was the first sort of tip that I had sort of the abilities I had is that I had a premonition of her having a paragliding accident.

SPEAKER_05 16:39

Really? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

We were all camping up in Mammoth, and I had this just sudden flash in my mind of her falling out of the sky, and like I also I used to say I could see the shadow of death on people.

SPEAKER_04 16:51

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Do I have it? No, you're fine.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

You're okay for for the next week.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

You're fine for a long time.

SPEAKER_03 16:56

Okay, good. Yeah, so are you. Wait, so you it's like a download of information, or it's a vision, or what is it?

SPEAKER_01 17:02

The thing I saw, I actually saw her falling out of the saw it, and then I was looking at her when we were camping, and so sometimes I used to actually see an actual shadow over people's face. Uh-huh. And in the past, when I had seen that on people's face, they actually did die.

SPEAKER_03 17:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

And I didn't feel like Amy would die for sure, but I felt like she would have a choice.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

Did who you communicated this to your fiance? And what did he think?

SPEAKER_01 17:24

He said, You're anxious. And he often thought I was anxious, which I was. But a week later, she actually did have the accident as I described it, and she fell like probably like 60 feet. And she's a licensed paraglider and like very experienced, and had like if someone was gonna have a paragliding accident, you wouldn't expect it to be her.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

But I remember my fiance was the first person to say you're psychic.

SPEAKER_04 17:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

And I didn't believe that was a thing, so I was just laughed it off. And he's like, I don't know what it is, but you have something, and I want to listen to it when it comes through. And I remember the first that was the first time I ever prayed. I remember I said to God, I was like, I don't really believe in you. Then I'm sorry if I'm wrong. And if you can please save my sister's life, please save my sister's life. Because she was like critically injured. Did she break her She broke like 36 bones? But somehow miraculously her um spinal cord wasn't severed, even though her spine was broken and she does spine surgery and like her pelvis was shattered, and she was in the hospital for like six months, and it took her like a year and a half to like. Is she walking these days? She's fine now.

SPEAKER_03 18:32

Oh my god. But then so you've had this premonition, and then where where does it go from there?

SPEAKER_01 18:38

So we were together almost seven years in total. So he was really like my husband, even though we didn't get married. Right. Um and we would have gotten married except the pandemic came along. I remember the pandemic.

SPEAKER_03 18:49

Do you remember the pandemic? It was in such a state of terror. For for so long, it's sort of like all been one.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

I think you had like eight.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

Yeah. Um okay, so it's 2020 and something happens.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

I remember I called my sister Amy in a panic, and she was out of the hospital at this point, and I was like, I kept feeling like I was going to die at the end of the year.

SPEAKER_03 19:15

And I think You were seeing premonitions about that?

SPEAKER_01 19:18

I I just had this sick, shaky feeling that I was gonna die at the end of the year, and I kept seeing like a shadow of death over my own face, and it lasted for a week. And I called my sister and I was like, I'm afraid I'm gonna die at the end of the year.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Aaron Powell Your sister's like, why do you have to make everything about you?

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Pretty much. And she's like, You're just anxious. Everyone else was like, You're just anxious.

SPEAKER_03 19:35

Apparently, apparently people really felt you were anxious.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

I I am anxious. I have an anxiety runs, I have OCD level and ADHD, and like together they can make you very anxious.

SPEAKER_03 19:45

That's a lot of letters. Right there. So you're telling your sister that you're to prepare for your death.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

She's like, Don't worry, you've just we've been through a lot. This has been a hard time. Um you're okay, basically.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

He died on January 2nd.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

Oh wow. So the vision you had about you dying at the end of the year.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Was him.

SPEAKER_03 20:03

Yeah. And it was totally wrong because it was the beginning of the next year.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:07

I mean, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

I'm not very good. I didn't say I'm a good medium, I said I'm there's a difference between like I do see things. I don't interpret them, right? But I do see them.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Wait, now so why do you think the vision you had about you dying went a little sideways? Was that to protect you, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 20:26

I don't think I was supposed to know he was gonna die. Yeah. Because and like the gift and not knowing for sure and not thinking it was coming, was that I didn't spend my last week with him and dread that it was our last week. We just we had a good week together. We actually had a really great last week of his life together. And like there in from what I do know about what happened, I don't think that there would have been any way he wouldn't have died.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

Uh so what what what did happen?

SPEAKER_01 20:54

So he had a he had sudden cardiac arrest while surfing and like passed out into the water and couldn't be revived, basically.

SPEAKER_03 21:01

Did he have heart troubles? I mean, was he?

SPEAKER_01 21:03

No one knew that. Although in the weeks before he died, I kept feeling like horrible chest pain.

SPEAKER_03 21:10

You have a tricky life.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

And I was like, I think I'm having a heart attack, and he's like, You're not.

SPEAKER_03 21:17

He was right.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

It wasn't me. But and although I do feel like the person that I was in the life I had sort of died with him, and I had to thrust into a very different life on the other side of his death.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Well, oh no, that makes so much sense. So I mean what you're seeing is actually accurate. I mean, it was a death of a big piece of who you were and your life and your understanding. So it was a death and a rebirth.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Like every piece of my life has changed on the other side of him dying. So that nothing in my life wasn't touched by his death.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

So tell us though about your spiritual world, how that shifted.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Um the day he died actually, but I I felt him talking to me.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

So this is a new thing. It's kind of a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

I was like, okay, now I'm schizophrenic. Right. And I was like, I am not well from grief. And no one ever talks about what the reality of grief is like. It's not pretty. It's not just like, oh, I'm sobbing in my pillow. Like I was like physically disgustingly ill. And like was like lying on the floor of my bathroom, like vomiting.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Did on some level you know like you had this premonition, like that that it was his time on some. I mean, was there some sense of fate was bigger at play here?

SPEAKER_01 22:29

I didn't have that perspective then.

SPEAKER_03 22:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

I think spiritually he knew it was coming. Like right before he died, he said to me, like a couple weeks before he died, he like took my hand when we were driving the car one day, and he's like, I want you to know that you and Zoe, which is our dog Zoe, he's like, I got more than I was ever hoping to find in life with the two of you. And he's like, I he's like, You've made my life worth everything.

SPEAKER_03 22:52

And he's like, I think it was more Zoe than you, or Probably.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

I mean, everyone loves Zoe.

SPEAKER_03 22:56

So But you know that actually it's one of the things that comes through from your story is how much he loved you, because frankly, the way you describe yourself, particularly around that breakup scenario time, it sounds like you're a little bit of a mess. And he loved you for all of it and and because of all of it.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

One thing that I've gotten as a spiritual message that has really been hard is like I used to think I had to be perfect to be loved, and I really felt like he was like, I love you as you are, I love you as you are. And like I did not feel very lovable back then. Like I didn't think I was very worthy of love, and he made it clear that I really was. Wow. And I would say like a lot of our conflicts actually came up from my fear that I wasn't worthy of love.

SPEAKER_03 23:37

Well, that's the your breakup was I mean I don't have enough money in the bank to be loved.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Yeah, and like that would fear manifested in all these different ways in our relationship.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

All right, so but let's let's get back to you've spent the first day of this tragedy uh near the toilet.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

And then um and then the second day you start to hear something.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

I mean, I feel like he was there with me from the moment he died, like honestly. And he's don't think he's ever really left my side in a nice way now.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

When he starts talking to you, is it is it a voice in your head or something.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

That's how it started. Is it his voice? It sounded like his voice, yeah. In his cadence. Right. He kept saying the best is yet to come over and over again to me.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

And I was like, How is that possible?

SPEAKER_01 24:21

I was like, no, you die and you're dead, this is terrible. And like what was happening to me was I was realizing that, like, oh no, if I even can survive this, it's not just him I'm gonna grieve. Like, one day I'm gonna grieve everyone I love or they're gonna grieve me. And I was like, this is horrible. Why would anyone like, how is this okay? And I was like, I feel like I've had my leg amputated and it's just bleeding and no one cauterized it, and I'm just supposed to be running a marathon with one leg now. And I was like, how does anyone go forward after tragedy like this?

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Well, it's just having those thoughts, too. I had I literally had this conversation yesterday with somebody where I was like, we're all just gonna die. It's like if I wrote a movie and everyone dies at the end. Like, who would want to see that movie?

SPEAKER_01 25:02

It's so sad. It's terrible. And I was like, this is awful. And I was like, I don't have any if I didn't have my dog Zoe to walk and take care of who is like my child, if I didn't have love her as much as I did and have to get up and walk her, I would have just laid in bed. Like, but I had to get up and walk her, so I had to be okay for her. For a long time, that was the only thing I could find to keep going for.

SPEAKER_03 25:23

Okay, so when he was telling you the best is yet to come.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

He was also saying things like, keep going, like it doesn't matter if it's hard, just don't stop. It was like a motivational coach. It was also I also heard him say, like, get up and take a shower in the morning, you won't ever regret taking a shower in the morning. So the voice was being very practical. It was very practical. He also was like, Hire an accountant, you need an accountant to organize your money, your your money's not in order. Like he's a get an accountant. His uh his friends all started having like visitation dreams, kind of.

SPEAKER_04 25:55

From him.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

From him. And they he kept saying the same things in all of them. And they would like, I'm okay, I'm having fun, it's okay for things to change.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

Yeah. It wasn't you need an accountant. No. To everybody. No, no, no. No, especially for me.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Which I did hire an accountant because of that advice.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

So he's reassuring everyone that's a good idea. It's okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

He's okay, it's okay. Yeah. I don't know. I had a breaking point in like this is sort of where it it all turned. Okay. I had to go stay at a hotel for a couple of weeks. And this was like I remember this was my very lowest point of grief.

SPEAKER_03 26:31

This is how much out from the death?

SPEAKER_01 26:34

In retrospect, not very far. It was in April. He died in January. So very fresh grief. I was very depressed while I was at this hotel. And I remember in my grief group, they were like talking about signs and like asking for signs, and I felt like I had gotten some from him right after he died. And I didn't believe them really. Like, but so I was like, well, if you are with me and this is true, can you please give me a sign? Right. And he did. Which was he's a quirky guy and had a lot of stuffed animals. Uh-huh. And he brought them to work with him in his backpack, and he claimed it was for if there were like anxious children. But I'm pretty sure he was the anxious child. Um, but the hotel manager randomly came up to me and gave me this hot pink stuffed animal and a bag of cookies for my dog, which like Johan Gere, his name was Johangeer, and his one of his favorite things was cookies.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

And stuffed animals.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

And stuffed animals. And the hot pink stuffed animals, like, you wouldn't miss it. It was the brightest thing ever. I was sitting there looking at it at it in my hotel room. And my friend Margaret was there with me when he gave it to me, and she's like, that was really weird how he just did that. And I was sitting there looking at it, and I was like, if this is the sign, which I doubt, it will have a special name. I posted a picture of it on Instagram with no context. His sister, on the other side of the country, saw my story, DM'd me, knowing none of this, also not at all woo-woo or believer in any of this, and she's like, That's disco. And I was like, Who's disco? And she's like, Did our parents give that to you too? They gave us that. And I was like, That's crazy. No, the hotel manager did, and she unprompted, she's like, Well, that feels like a sign. So she even spilled it out for me.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

She wrote it in the DM.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

That is really And I was like, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Oh, you still reject it.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

I've rejected it so hard for so long.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

That's exactly how I would be. I'd be like, no, no, no, no. Lightning didn't strike. I was talking about a real sign, like a big sign.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

So then I went and asked the front desk, and I was like, Does the manager do this for everyone? And she's like, No, that's weird. He must have really liked your dog. And I was like, Well, can I have his card to write to him and say, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 28:43

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

So I was looking him up. He had been the manager at this hotel in San Diego that was the last hotel my fiance and I had stayed at during before he died.

SPEAKER_04 28:57

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

And I had saved the key card from that hotel in my purse and still had it because that is where I thought we would get married.

SPEAKER_03 29:03

You wait, you decided you were going to get married to get married.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

I thought it would be a good hotel to have our wedding at.

SPEAKER_03 29:09

I'd say that's a pretty solid sign. In retrospect, yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

It took a lot to convince me that this was real.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

Alright, so you're having you're having these incredible, like irr irrefutable signs. They're refutable. She's refuted them. I've refuted all of them.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

I saw my dead fiance walk down the street and say hello to me when I was on the phone with my friend Susan, who had introduced us. It was on my street.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

Oh, just outside your home.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Yeah, at dusk. And I just saw him walk by and stand there and say hi.

unknown 29:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

He came up and said hi. And what did you do?

SPEAKER_01 29:43

And he was not dressed weather appropriate, like he was dressed in his clothes. And I like stared at him.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

He just came up, he said hi, and then did he disappear, or what did he do?

SPEAKER_01 29:52

I was so freaked out. And my dog sniffed him.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

Doug sniffed him. So the dog sensed me.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Yeah, he just it was very peaceful, but it scared the crap out of me, so I like hurried home. And I was like, there's ghosts. Or I'm crazy. Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Either way, it's pretty terrifying.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

And then I looked back and he had just disappeared. Like I got like a safe distance away, and then he's gone. And I was like, that he just disappeared into thin air.

SPEAKER_03 30:12

And then at some point did you go, oh, I wish I had spent a moment there with you?

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Yes, I really regretted that I didn't.

SPEAKER_03 30:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

I was so scared. But also didn't believe it. So I was just like, I'm hallucinating. I'm I was like, I was waiting for my diagnosis of schizophrenia. Like I was really waiting for that.

SPEAKER_03 30:28

And you're seeing you're seeing other spirits too. Are they usually people you know, or they could be people you have no idea who they are?

SPEAKER_01 30:34

So the thing that really tipped it for me that I wasn't imagining this, I wasn't making this up, and it wasn't mental illness, is this girl who was missing that the police didn't know about yet came to me and told me what happened to her. Oh my gosh. This part is how I finally was convinced.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

All right. So so the way this all came to become real for you is there w there was a crime that was committed that you knew nothing about. A girl, a young girl, was murdered. Murdered. Jesus. Okay. And she shows up in spirit form.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

With my dead fiance.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

With your dead fiance. Where are you right now at this time?

SPEAKER_01 31:10

I was sitting in my bed. You're you're it was like nine o'clock at night. I don't go to bed till like midnight, so I was not asleep.

SPEAKER_03 31:15

Right. So you're you're just hanging out, you're in your bed. Like feeling sad. Yeah, feeling sad. And and this girl shows up in spirit form with your fiance and says what?

SPEAKER_01 31:26

She says, Help me. I'm a missing girl. No one knows yet. Can you draw my missing person photo? And then she was like, Daddy did it, daddy did it. And then she said the name Kayla, and she said the last name Montgomery. And then she showed me this scene, and she's like, I'm somewhere near here. And she showed me this stone fence with this like red husky dog jumping up and down on it with like a green tree behind it. And so I went to college in New Hampshire and I worked on a literary magazine called the Stone Fence Review.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

And New Hampshire has a lot of these little stone fences.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

Right. This is the moment that convinced you that was.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

In retrospect.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Not in the moment.

SPEAKER_03 32:07

You were still dubious in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Oh, very dubious.

SPEAKER_03 32:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

So it took her court case to convince me.

SPEAKER_03 32:12

Oh, okay. And so what do you do with that information?

SPEAKER_01 32:14

She said draw my picture.

SPEAKER_03 32:16

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

And she also showed me what happened and she showed me like physical hands on my neck.

SPEAKER_03 32:21

And said it was the father who did it.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

I think she was saying daddy did it, but I was like, I don't know. I don't want to accuse anyone's daddy of doing anything. And she said the name Kayla.

SPEAKER_04 32:30

Kayla.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

And she showed me so for half a year I went to this middle school in Idaho with either the principal or the vice principal who was named Mr. Montgomery. And I remembered him because I knew his son. And she kept showing me him at Montgomery. Montgomery. So I had that.

SPEAKER_03 32:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

And so I wrote all of this down, but instead of writing down Montgomery, I just said, I think she's in middle school.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

Because spirits give us clues, and you kind of have to be like she knew that that if she pointed out that person, that person's name was Montgomery, and you would eventually get to Montgomery, the name And I I very clearly got Kayla. Uh huh.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

And like their text to my mom the next morning describing all of this too.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

You texted to your mom, so it's all documented.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Yeah, and she's like, I don't know what to do with this. And she's like, I don't know either. And she's like, that's probably not enough information to do anything.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Why like do some things come through clear and other things come through murky and not clear?

SPEAKER_01 33:24

I think the veil is thick. And I have a theory of the veil is like our just material body of our five senses that filter the greater reality out. I think that's the veil, is like we're on the periodic table of elements and they're on the subatomic field.

SPEAKER_03 33:38

It's just hard to get the message to get through in whatever way I can.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

To permeate.

SPEAKER_03 33:42

Yeah, right. Okay, so you go to your mom, your mom says, I'm not sure what we're gonna do with all this information, and so what happened?

SPEAKER_01 33:47

I drew the missing person photo with paint. I thought I was crazy, but I also am a compassionate person, and what she said was so terrible that I was like, anyone with a heart would do would try. Yeah. Even though it's insane. Like you would try to do something if can you draw?

SPEAKER_03 34:03

I mean, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 34:04

I spent one summer at Interlochen art camp.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

Good for you. In doing crime drawing.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Doing painting classes. Okay, so you were free up scene while I was there briefly.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

For real?

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

It was like I had the adapters in your life.

SPEAKER_03 34:21

I have a goodest life. So you drew the picture, what happened?

SPEAKER_01 34:24

I painted I painted it. And if I had understood what it was for, I would have taken more time. But I was very pretty dismissive. So with like 15 minutes, I just sketched it out. And I was like, she looks kind of like one of the Olsen twins from Full House when they were little.

SPEAKER_04 34:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Like and I drew like I remember her shirt colored. How old was she? She turned out to be five when she went missing. But the day this happened, a podcast just randomly played on my phone. Like it just was randomly up in the queue of this woman named Jennifer, who was a medium. She worked with this organization called Find Me that mediated between mediums and the police. And so I was like, well, I guess I could reach out to Jennifer and ask her for help. She nicely had a free Zoom session with me for like three hours where we channeled this girl together, and she is like, I hear her too. And we got a lot of details about her. Like when she went missing, it was sometime around like November 19. And like there's a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

We couldn't match her to a case.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Because the case hadn't really happened.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

It wasn't in the news yet. Yeah. It had happened, wasn't in the news.

SPEAKER_03 35:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

But during this time, I was like, okay, thank God I'm just crazy. We get or just who knows what that was. Jennifer saw it too. Who who knows? Months later, it was right around the anniversary of Junger's death, actually. I think it's just the first anniversary of his death. This was all in like the one year after he died.

SPEAKER_04 35:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Which in retrospect, that is crazy. But I was up in Mammoth with my family.

SPEAKER_04 35:43

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

And my sister Amy, who had been in the accident, was like Ivy, that girl you drew a picture of is in the news. She really is a missing girl. Her stepmom is named Kayla, their last name's Montgomery, and her stepmom just got arrested on food stamps fraud. And her dad has a history of domestic violence and has been arrested for like hitting her in the past.

SPEAKER_03 36:02

Okay, wait, let's Wow. That's intense. So the information you got from from that first meeting with this little girl and your fiance who came to you in spirit form was something bad has happened to me. Help them find me. Kayla, the name Kayla, the vision of this man who you knew's name was Montgomery.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

There's more, there's like a lot of stuff. A lot of information. Like we were homeless. That was part of it. It was like hope I kept seeing this homeless van and this car that was broken down, and I was seeing a specific car.

SPEAKER_03 36:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

And I saw where all these different places I thought her body was.

SPEAKER_03 36:35

Also got a visual of what she was like, and you drew it out. And I drew her picture. And then and then on the anniversary of your fiance's day. Pretty much, yeah. Um, your sister says to you, look, there's the picture you drew. And the mom's name is Kayla, the last name's Montgomery, and this girl is missing.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Yeah, and Jennifer thought the girl's name was either Haley or Harmony, and her name is Harmony.

SPEAKER_04 36:59

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Harmony Montgomery.

SPEAKER_04 37:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

And this is a big case in the news. It's a really, really sad case. They were homeless. And she was just missing at that point. But uh everyone, including my therapist, my sister, Jennifer, were like, tell the police there's a tip line, tell them, tell them what you know, tell them what you know. Uh my this was my grief therapist who just happened to have a background in forensic psychology and crime solving. Just by happenstance, and she's like, sometimes the tiniest bit of information tips a case one way or the other. And she's like, You it's not up to you to judge, they'll decide whether it's useful or not. I wrote them, they actually called me later on and interviewed me on.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

Where what part of the country was? It was in New Hampshire. Did you help them locate the body?

SPEAKER_01 37:43

I feel like I saw the puzzle pieces to that were important to figuring out what actually happened to her because I kept seeing something about like there was DNA in some porous tile somewhere. Uh-huh. And I kept seeing it had something to do with like a kid having bathroom accidents, and I I also saw it had something to do with Ghostbusters with the DNA evidence. Turned out that the DNA analyst was named Aykroyd, who like helped prove that the DNA in this porous tile that her body was hid behind at one point was her that bodily fluid there was her. Right. Wow. And like I kept saying it has something to do with like water, it was on Lake Street. Like I was like, you're hotter closer to the water, so like Lake Street, and I was like I also saw something about like the location of like evidence with like the food stamps fraud, and there was something with work records at Dunkin' Donuts they needed to relook at. Like her stepmom had lied about when she was working at Dunkin' Donuts, and that was she got accused of perjury or charged with perjury because of that.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

And then that's what blew the case up, and is Yeah. I mean, so you're seeing this play out now. It's in the news, and then you're involved in helping the the the police or the prosecution. Um now where what's happening to you? Are you beginning to go, oh wait, I am a medium finally?

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Like I was so afraid of being judged for coming forward about these experiences because I was I thought it was shameful.

SPEAKER_05 39:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

And I felt like I was a bad person, or there's some defect in me that I was like this thing that I didn't want to be. Like it was a very stigmatized thing. Like my mom actually described my journey to saying I'm a medium as like she likened it to someone who felt a lot of like trauma around their sexuality, like having to come out.

SPEAKER_04 39:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

Because she's like, that's you feel as much shame and pain around it as someone like you. You had to like come out. I was a closeted medium.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

The medium closet.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Yeah, I was in the medium closet.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

So now you're beginning to accept that you're a medium. How is this incredible story of this life going from this girl, little girl in Idaho who's screaming at people because they were pretending they were dinosaurs? How is this now accepting that you're communicating with the other side? How has this changed you?

SPEAKER_01 39:54

Um I'm not I I used to be panicked all the time about death. And I used to feel like uh so afraid of making the wrong choices or like wasting my life. I was trying to make something of my existence in the confines of there's nothing more than this. And this has helped me feel more at peace with just where I'm at. It's made me feel uh more uh grounded and connected to the love I do have in my life now, even though and like it's made me feel like there's a lot more love in the world than I knew.

SPEAKER_03 40:22

What do you make of that message which your fiance came through with almost immediately after his death, which is the best is yet to come.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Can I tell you briefly about Japan? Of course.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

When I flew into Japan, I saw this the world from like God's eyes for a minute.

SPEAKER_03 40:40

Are you saying from the plane, or are you saying you're here in Japan and suddenly you're having this vision?

SPEAKER_01 40:44

Like it wasn't even a vision, it was just I was seeing the world almost with like fresh eyes for a minute, and I was I felt like I was seeing it from the other side's point of view a little bit of it, just how delightful everything in life is meant to be. And how like even just the sound of the train and like there's a cute little music that plays when the train arrives in Japan. And like even the way like there were these two girls chatting with each other and the way they were moving around was almost like this like cute little ballet, and they were just giggling and happy, and I was like, there's so much magic in that little moment. And then I was like looking at all the snacks at 7-Eleven and all the cute little packages, and all there's like things that are fizzy and they're meant to like delight your tongue, and they're a sensation and they're an experience, and like Japan is a whole culture that's similar to here, but it's a little bit different, and there's like magic in how it was made, and it was made for delight, right? And it was made to be fun, and it was made for enjoyment, and then also there's so much love and care put into everything that's been built that every product out there, even if there's a cynical capitalistic motive behind it, there's also love.

SPEAKER_04 41:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Like we're here to experience the delight and have the fun, and it isn't just supposed to be like eat like dry chicken breast and like work out on your elliptical every day. Like it's fine if you're doing that, but like uh you're missing the point a little bit if you're just in a routine.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

It took you going to Japan, because I don't think this is uh an experience that's um you know that it only lives in the culture of Japan. This is like a truth to me, it sounds like it took you going to Japan to just sort of see the truth, the the beauty the of the of all the little intricacies of the world and and how uh how there's just so much love in life kind of buried in all the details.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

The fact that the human beings make medicine for each other. Yeah. So that if you have a problem, uh someone else like uh cared to try to solve it.

SPEAKER_03 42:40

When did you go to Japan?

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Just in February.

SPEAKER_03 42:42

Yeah. See, I think that vision is your future.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

I I hope so.

SPEAKER_03 42:46

Well that's but that that is you seeing what's beyond all the heaviness that you have had in your life. That's a that is a perception of reality. Yeah. A movement in the direction of a much greater truth.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

And I I will tell you, I've had many experiences from the other side, then they keep trying to say like they don't want it to be so heavy for you, like giving you these experiences, but it's not supposed to make you sad, it's supposed to give you a lightness, and like that was sort of the first real sense of seeing reality.

SPEAKER_03 43:20

That should be your North Star. I love that. Yeah, that is that's where you're going.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

I hope so.

SPEAKER_03 43:25

In a way, if we are summing it up, it's like you know, the message you got from your your fiance was the best is yet to come, and really what you were here to say was that best is right here, right now, if you just kind of look at things.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

Just turn the dial five percent towards hope and seeing the love. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

There it is. I thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Oh, thank you so much. This has been really lovely to get. Um you guys are great.

SPEAKER_03 43:56

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Realization Lab on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.