S1 Ep9: A Spirit Offered Him a Deal / Don David Wiley

What happens when a spirit makes you an offer you can't refuse?

In this extraordinary conversation, Jay and David sit down with Don David Wiley, a spiritual elder in the ancient Wixárika (Huichol) and Nahua traditions of Mexico. Years ago, while facing a profound personal challenge and the possibility of losing contact with his children, Don David encountered a mysterious being who appeared in human form and offered to help him—if he, in turn, would help fulfill the spirit's work. 

That encounter set Wiley on a remarkable path that ultimately led him into indigenous spiritual traditions where he now serves as a vessel for Tatewari, "Our Grandfather Fire." Through him, Grandfather Fire is said to communicate wisdom and teachings to those who seek guidance. 

Whether viewed as mysticism, spiritual reality, or something beyond explanation, Don David's story is one of the most fascinating journeys we've ever featured on Realization Lab. 

Links

https://sacredfire.org/

https://keepsthefire.org/

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:05

Your body is shaking, particularly your limbs are shaking quite dramatically.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

The body is going through a form of seizures.

SPEAKER_04 0:13

Your consciousness is not present.

SPEAKER_02 0:15

I'm out of there.

SPEAKER_04 0:16

Right. And you're vacating the body in a body during this the seizure in order to do what?

SPEAKER_02 0:26

So now he can speak. Wait, who's he? Who's he?

SPEAKER_04 0:37

Our world is magnificent. Filled with life in every imaginable form. But what if at the root of all these diverse forms there was one energy, one conscious energy that created everything we know by becoming everything we know, including you. Come with us as we peek behind the curtain of what we call reality and explore the limitless wonders of consciousness. In the realization lab. I'm Jay Sherrick. Right over there is David Ron. There he is, my longtime friend and writing partner. And David, we have with us a guest who has one of the most incredible, remarkable stories I've ever heard. I can't wait for you to be able to do that. I'm excited to hear you to hear this story. Don David Wiley, thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Thank you very much. I appreciate you inviting me.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

So let's start just by Who is Don David? How about that? You're here because I went to a uh a ritual a week ago at a house in Santa Monica where this very extraordinary thing happened that you were the center of. David knows nothing about it.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Which is great. Because it's like I get to I get to hear everything for the first time.

SPEAKER_04 2:12

We're gonna get to all of it. But just to give a little sense of of who you are, you are actually a spiritual elder in a number in two uh related traditions. In two.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

And they are and the Nahua. Those cultures exist where? The Nahuas are in the Central Highlands of Mexico. Mexico. Uh-huh. And uh huichos. It's in the uh northwestern Sierra Madres of Mexico.

SPEAKER_04 2:39

So these are two Mexican ancient Mexican cultures where you're a spiritual elder.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

There are ancient traditions that at some point would be called Mexico. Okay. Mexicans are Johnny Cubately, but and you are Mexican? No, I'm not. I'm from the United States. That's right. You were born where? I was born in Memphis, Tennessee, and raised in Oak Ridge, Tennessee.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Right. And so clearly being an elder in ancient Mexican traditions is a natural core.

SPEAKER_04 3:14

Have they had um uh Americans be elders in these traditions before? No. No. This is this is something unique. And there's a good reason why they they have included you as part of their tradition, and that's what we're that's what we're gonna get into. And the reason we're here today is because I went to a fire ritual, and I just want to talk a little bit about that before we get get into your story. So I went to this person's house, they had prepared a fire, you weren't there yet. We, as a group, there were quite a few people there, we all made offerings to the fire, and I think there were four offerings, one for each direction, right? Correct. So the the first one was Chocolate. Chocolate, cacao, that represented what direction?

SPEAKER_02 3:55

It goes to the south, which uh it attracts the influence of courage, strength, and warriorship. For the north, what tobacco, which uh which draws in the influence of wisdom.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

Wisdom. So it's when you're being the warrior and the courage, it's good to have the wisdom to know what to be courageous about.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

So they kind of offset each other in a good combination.

SPEAKER_04 4:20

Yeah. And then for the east there was uh it's called Kopal Resin.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Which is the the sap of a tree. Uh-huh. It's considered very pleasing to to the the divinities. It's welcoming. Welcome. And so east is the welcoming direction.

SPEAKER_04 4:37

Because the sun is rising in the east, and welcoming in the new day. And then the west was was wood.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

A piece of wood.

SPEAKER_04 4:46

The significance of the wood would be transformation.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

So as the wood is consumed by the fire, it transforms and lets go. So another possibility can rise up.

SPEAKER_04 4:56

So it's clearing out the old to make room for the new.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

That's kind of what fire does.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

And right, and you need the wisdom and you definitely need the courage.

SPEAKER_04 5:05

Yeah, well, your story particularly shows how you you need courage.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

And then there's the center, and of course, hose is there at the center, which was no no physical offering, but just a respect by going around one more time just to honor the fire.

SPEAKER_04 5:21

Honored this fire which sits at the center. Okay. So this these offerings were made and the fire was consecrated. And then you arrived and you made offerings as well. And then you took your seat and uh at that point there was there was some music and people were telling stories and some chanting and things. Uh but you began to consume two things.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

Uh tobacco in the form of a cigar. Cigar, yeah. And chocolate hot chocolate.

SPEAKER_04 5:51

A special mixture of hot chocolate which represents two of the offerings, the the s the south and the north.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 5:58

So a period of time goes on and where, you know, you're you're consuming quite a bit of chocolate and smoking the cigar. And um and then at some point, one of the people, one of your assistants, says, Okay. And what happens at that point?

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Yeah, well, what happens is I feel a state change begin to happen. In your body. In my body. Okay. And what does that feel like? Well, my heart starts to race. I mean, I've been smoking and drinking the chocolate, and so it's a stimulant, you could say that. But now a state change of feeling like, okay, there's a change going on in my body where it's increasing. It's like it's rising up.

SPEAKER_04 6:34

And is there anything in the the two elements that you the chocolate and the tobacco, any uh pharmaceuticals or any kind of uh plant medicines?

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Cigars are called poodles, which means they're pure. Pure and it's a a good quality chocolate.

SPEAKER_04 6:49

But there are no hallucinogens or anything pig stamps.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Tobacco and chocolate. It's a spirit source. So those are those are pure. Kind of like uh catalytic spirit sources that have been used in ceremony since uh forever. Right.

SPEAKER_04 7:04

So what happens? So you're starting to feel your your body raise.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Right. And then uh and then at some moment, uh, and this is when the what we call the pilot, he's the sitting on my right side, he's he's kind of making sure that everything's taken care of. And so now what will happen is I will feel the rush like a like a velocity pressure. Uh-huh. And uh and then I will wake up in the morning. Wow. Hold on.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

So we we've we've missed something. We've missed the whole night. So you wake up the next morning. I certainly did. Yeah, you do.

SPEAKER_04 7:36

It's so funny how you're in such a good mood about it because it seems so dramatic when you're sitting there watching. What does it look like? Well, what I what I see is that they start drumming. There's the beat, I guess there's some value to the rhythm of the drum. And then what I start to see is your body starts to shake quite dramatically.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

When I disappear, so I'm now I slip quickly into a coma or a so a coma.

SPEAKER_04 8:06

Yeah. So you're you're that's that's what I would came to understand is you actually at this point go into what's the equivalent of a coma.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

A coma-like state.

SPEAKER_03 8:16

I've been in a chocolate coma before.

SPEAKER_04 8:18

No, I don't think it's this one's a little bit different.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

The body is going through uh a a form of seizures.

SPEAKER_04 8:23

Your body is shaking, particularly your limbs are shaking quite dramatically. Right. And there are people there who are like watching over you to make sure that you're safe and that you know you don't, I guess, fall out of the chair or anything like that. But your consciousness is not present.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

I'm out of there.

SPEAKER_04 8:38

Right. And you're vacating the body in a body during this the seizure in order to do what?

SPEAKER_02 8:49

So that what happens is the body goes with the the temperature rises up to a high fever level. Of what? Around 100-304.

SPEAKER_04 8:57

Your body's going up to 100 and 304, your body is shaking.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

The way it's explained to me is that as the temperature goes up, the shaking slows down and stops, and so uh now he can speak. Wait, who's he?

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Oh, wait, no, no, sorry, so no.

SPEAKER_04 9:11

So the purpose of this ritual the title of the at least the program that I went to says fire speaks, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

Right. To hear fire talk. Like what if you could do, if you could hear the wisdom of fire speak in a way that you could hear it clearly.

SPEAKER_04 9:26

Right. And this isn't just something that you invented, this is an ancient tradition that goes back to some form of channeling. Channeling, yeah. That goes back for as long as anyone can tell. That's right. And in this case, there is an entity that we all know called fire, but uh but the understanding in the traditions that you have uh become part of is that fire is a is is a spirit uh uh that has a consciousness uh uh that has uh enormous wisdom, uh given the fact that it's been here since the beginning of time, I suppose. Right and you were called into this practice quite surprisingly so, in order to be a vehicle uh in helping fire to communicate to to many more.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Right. For him to speak in a way that only he can speak, right represents the difficulties and who we are as a human being, and and what is it to be a human being and to live well in the world.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah. Does he have a name?

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Uh well he's called many names in different traditions, but in this tradition uh he's referred to our grandfather fire or uh in what arca, which old language, uh tatuari.

SPEAKER_03 10:42

Tatuari. I love that. Tatuari. Tatuari.

SPEAKER_04 10:46

Grandfather Fire.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

Our grandfather fire. Our grandfather fire. Right. So it's it's an affectionate term.

SPEAKER_04 10:52

And and he has come to share his wisdom because we as humanity are maybe beering a little bit off course, to use a little correction.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

And uh he says, uh the good news is I've arrived to help you out. And so the bad news is I'm having to arrive to help you out.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

The bad news is it might be too late.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Well, if it's too late, that's arrived later.

SPEAKER_03 11:14

Hey, goodbye, everybody. So it's not too late.

SPEAKER_04 11:16

That's good news. And before we get into your story specifically, why why do you think he called into service um a American in this non-ethnic uh a non-religious Tennessean businessman.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:33

Why why do you think you got called in?

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Well, if you talk to the people from those cultures, they said you guys live in a very crazy way that it does not make sense to us. Right. So I'm from the culture. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_04 11:47

Right. On some level, it's the American culture and cultures like ours. Who are the problem. Yeah. Who've got them made the mess to begin with. And perhaps in Grandfather Fire's wisdom, the thinking is that someone from the culture might be a good resource to reach the culture. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

He's been involved with us since the beginning. Yeah. And now we've gotten to a crisis point. And he's like I said, he's uh Call in the Gringo.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

He'll do anything.

SPEAKER_03 12:25

And also I guess we kind of made the mess, maybe we are uniquely qualified to our time.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

We are uniquely qualified because we got us into it and we have a capacity to get us out of it.

SPEAKER_04 12:38

And the story of how you came into this role is absolutely fascinating. All right, I want to hear it. So you were born in Tennessee, right? Right. And what was your spiritual life like?

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Uh I was raised Catholic. But you didn't have a strong connection to No, no, it was like, well, it was a thing that you did because yeah, that's what your parents did.

SPEAKER_04 12:59

And then you went off to college and you Don David talked briefly about how he got married, got a master's in business, and started working as a business consultant. But his marriage was faltering.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

I'm in Atlanta and I have two kids, and uh a short story of uh it's not it's not working out between my wife and I.

SPEAKER_04 13:19

So David gets divorced or eventually he started dating a Mexican woman and after a while decided to move to Mexico to be with her.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Spiritually, she's very eclectic. Right. And uh and she would talk about spiritual stuff, or she'd have some people over and they talk about spiritual stuff. So she had her her spiritual explanation, and I introduced my scientific explanation. Right. Like I'm going to uh I need to straighten these people out here. And so when I did that She looked at me like you poor guy.

SPEAKER_04 13:52

You're trying to you're trying to educate these poor fools who believe in something larger than science. Right. You're trying to get them back on the uh on the straight and narrow.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

Or at least uh let them know that uh that they're being foolish. Yeah. So that's as close to spirituality.

SPEAKER_04 14:11

And and and and I I assume something is going to then uh shake up this balance. Yes. And that's something it was the Mexican government that went broke.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Immediately the peso lost half its value overnight.

SPEAKER_04 14:26

And you you've got child support, you've got a lot of responsibilities, and now now you're in a bind.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Yeah, and the company that is supposed to pay me uh aren't as on the square as you imagine. So anyway, I ran out of money. Yeah. And so uh so now I get a uh a legal problem because I can't even go back and get a job. In the US where you could potentially get a job. Yes, but for my level of of job, it'll do a check to see are you on the square here?

SPEAKER_04 14:56

It's a catch-22, because your ex-wife wants you to pay, but you can't make the money because you've got a uh a check against you.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

Yeah, and I'm stuck in Mexico, so I gotta I gotta find a way to make a deal, which they're not dealing because they're there's no money.

SPEAKER_04 15:11

So you might say that uh destiny puts you into a bit of a vice grip here.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

You know, you are in a you're in a sticky situation. So two years go by. Okay, I'm trying everything that I can to close a deal, uh-huh, and nothing is happening. And I'm and of course, child support is just getting it's growing, it's growing and growing, growing. So you're gonna be banished from your children. So I'm just uh ruined. I can't see my kids, and and and one day uh my uh my partner, my Mexican partner, keeps coming, you know, says, Oh, would you like to go do this or go do that?

SPEAKER_04 15:52

She's spiritual and she's doing different spiritual things.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

I say, No. I mean, it actually uh it's a little stronger, like uh hell no. Like, are you crazy? Right. I'm gonna waste my time. Right. You know, meditation, if I'm gonna sit there, you know, I can sit here at home and just stare at a wall. So I I was so desperate. I was really desperate. So she invites me to uh my three-day retreat there in Quiravaca, and I said, sure, why not?

SPEAKER_04 16:16

For some reason that we're not really trying to do that.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

I was just I I I'm going crazy. I'm I'm really having some really desperate thoughts about uh my life. I am just oof, yeah. And so what the hell? You know, it's three days, right? Whatever. So you go to this retreat, right? And and for the first couple days, it's like, hey, you know, this is kind of interesting. I find calmer and and I can actually do this. It's like uh You can actually meditate? Yeah, I can meditate. We did a balance between sitting and walking meditation, right? Very you know, beginner stuff. Yeah. And there's a retreat center, it has a garden, which uh it's got like a maze, you know, bushes and stuff. So it's not a not an official maze, but it's it's very maze-like. Right. And on the third day, it was like I just feeling very spacious and very open, like oh, the world, and you know, you're feeling hopeful for the first time in a long time. I wonder why this is like this, and I and so I I heard a response. And at first I think I'm daydreaming. Wait, so what was the question you asked? Do you remember? I don't remember. It was something just something a big question like that. Like I wonder what the purpose of my life a certain way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:24

And and then you hear Did I hear a response? And did the response seem intelligent and and like that's a reasonable answer?

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Well, first it was I thought I was daydreaming. But then I realized that no, I said, I don't even know that to think that. Because the response is something that you would have never gotten into. I would have never got anywhere near there. And I thought, wow, that's great. So then I asked another question, like, well then if that's true, then why is this like that? And then another great answer. And then I turned around and what appeared was a spectre. This little short guy appeared in some uh uh rough cloth, like burlapy. Yeah, burlapy kind of stuff with uh headband, and he was his face was super wrinkled, little bitty eyes, and a headband.

SPEAKER_04 18:13

Wait, so so you've had no spiritual inklings at all. You're at this retreat, you've asked two questions, you've gotten these answers which are beyond your own comprehension.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

And then I'm like, okay, where where are these answers coming from? And you turn and it was like, oh my god, he just like he kind of materializes like that. And I look at him and I got the hell out of there. You just ran. I just got up, turned around, and said, I am losing it. Yeah. So you run back to your girlfriend. I go back to my partner. It's a lunch break. She's chit-chatting with somebody, and I walk over there, and and I said, I said, Diana, that was Diana, you gotta help me. It says, There's this Indian guy.

SPEAKER_04 18:57

Did you think it was an actual human being, or did you think it was a human being as solid as as as solid as that?

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 19:05

It didn't enter your mind that it might have been some sort of you know manifestation of some greater energy. It was you thought it was a human being. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

There was nothing. Now there's something, and he's talking.

SPEAKER_04 19:15

Did he actually, when you saw the physical guy, did was he actually speaking? He was speaking, okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Yeah, and so it's like And speaking English. He's speaking English. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 19:24

All right, so so what does Deanna say to that?

SPEAKER_02 19:27

So she stops talking to uh her friend and she turns around and she says to me, We'll see what he wants. And then she turns around and starts talking back.

SPEAKER_04 19:36

It was very simple to her. Very simple.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

And I look at her like this is like, man, I am mad because she's not taking this seriously. I walked away, I was a little angry about it.

SPEAKER_04 19:45

Walk back to the man?

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Well, I walked to the side of the room and I I thought for a little while. I said, Okay, this was just a minefart. This is gonna be the end of it.

SPEAKER_04 19:55

You're moving on. That was just a crazy little thing about it.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

You know, I'm bigger than that. And so I walk back out there. Okay. Bushes, flowers, back to normality. Back to normality. Yeah. And then he appears again. I started talking like, well, it's a beautiful day today. You're making small talk. And uh, what do you say? And what did he say? He says, uh, you're really scared, aren't you? And I go, like, yeah. And he says, Well, we want me to go away. He said, Do you want me to leave? He says, Do you want me to go away? And I said, Well, no, no, no, hold on just a butt. This is too weird. This is too wild. Let's let's take this a little further and see where it goes. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 20:38

At this point, do you know that he is not a normal human being?

SPEAKER_02 20:43

He's definitely not a normal human being because I just saw him appear.

SPEAKER_04 20:47

He just kind of like materialized. Oh, wait, when you went back the second time. There was nothing there. Nothing there, and then suddenly there was the materialization. Materialization. And there he is.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

And again, he's not like uh vapory, he's like he's like flesh and blood looking.

SPEAKER_04 21:02

And and he's talking. And he's going, am I scaring you too much? And you're going, well, yeah, a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Not a little bit, like the jazz. And I go, let's take this a little further. Just a little further.

SPEAKER_04 21:13

That was the critical moment.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

This was the moment. Yeah. And you chose to go further. Yeah. I used to cave explore. I mean, I'm a little bit of an adventure. And he says, he says, you're really torn up about your kids, aren't you?

SPEAKER_04 21:24

Oh, so now he knows stuff about your personality.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

I said, yeah, man, that's then he he says, he says, you know, I could use a guy like you. And uh he said.

SPEAKER_04 21:40

I just want to stop for a second. Can you imagine if you went to a retreat and materialized?

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Okay. He says, I'll fix this thing with your kids if you become a shaman. And he knows that he just pushed. Like a button, and it's like he knows this deal with my kids. He knew you needed to help your kids, and and he's proposed a deal. He's proposed a deal. Now I say, sure, and then I say, What's a shaman? Because I'm not familiar with the term. Yeah. And he said, Oh, don't worry about the labels. You got lots of time to figure that one out. And then he disappears. He's like, okay, now he's gone. But I'm now full of hope. If this can be that, anything can happen. So now I run back into the treat center, and there she is, my Diana. Diana's still talking. Yeah, I says, he says he's going to fix this thing with my kids. All I have to do is become a shaman. What's a shaman? And she looks at me now, suddenly she takes me seriously. And she's like, well, it's kind of like um, you know, like uh she tries to fumble with I said, hey, don't worry about it. I've got my college uh dictionary I brought with me. I'm gonna go back, I'm gonna look it up, it's gonna be fine. Whatever it is, because I just know it's gonna happen. And he's gonna fix this thing with my kids.

SPEAKER_04 23:00

Did Diana understand that this was a being who had materialized out of nothing and was was offering you this deal? Not later. Not yet. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

So she thinks you met some strange little guy in the uh Well, she doesn't she doesn't articulate, I don't know what she was thinking.

SPEAKER_04 23:14

But what's so amazing is you have been backed into this corner for two years, and there's this person who makes a deal with you, and you would have probably agreed to anything at that point. Well, you know, the the flying gets you in a quarter sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Yeah, you're pretty stubborn. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:30

All right, so so he's made a deal. Do you ever see him again during that reason?

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Yeah, well there's one more time the next morning. So I'm just elated, but now I'm starting to I'm starting to think a little bit. This is the way the mind works. It's like, okay, wait a second. I do contracts with you know management consulting and trade consulting, you know, contracts. Right. What did I just sign up for here? Yeah. And who the heck was that? Obviously, it's like I guess you could call it some spirit form, but who is he? Right. And uh what did I like? I don't know how to become a shop. I look, I went home and I I looked it up and I said, mago, religious, whatever. I said, I don't know what the hell that is. It's gonna be I close, it's gonna be good. Yeah. Whatever it is, it's gonna work. Because if he said it, it's gonna happen. Right. So now we go to bed that night. Uh-huh. And so I wake up at the crack of dawn, and there he is, he's standing there right beside the bed.

SPEAKER_05 24:22

He's in your room now.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

And I go, whoa! What do you want? He says, Well, we have a deal. Well, well, Deanna could sleep through a bombing race. He's just cutting the Z. We got a deal. I said, Oh, yeah, okay. So what do we do? So now he says, get up and follow him. And we have a little place in our house there. So you get up out of bed, follow him, Panjamies, and and he walks back to his place, which has an east-facing window, and he gives me some instructions on how to pray. Because if you don't know how to do that, is you know, this is it's not gonna work very well. We need to teach you to pray first and foremost.

SPEAKER_04 24:58

Because you've got no spiritual training whatsoever. Well, I've been to Catholic school, church, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

You know, just kind of shuffle my feet through all that. And uh and so, okay, well, okay. So he gives you some really simple instructions, and then he disappears. Oh, and that was that was the last time I saw him in that kind of physicality. He got replaced by hearing a like a a little voice right off the side of my head here.

SPEAKER_04 25:24

It's the same spirit or energy or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

But it's got the same tone in the voice and the same personality.

SPEAKER_04 25:30

It's the same thing, but it's taking a different form. He's no longer in physical, but now it's talking to you just off of your right side.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Yeah, just off of my right side. And it's like, and he's very quiet, but every now and then he just pops in with very little instructions. And then I ask him, I said, Okay, well, who are you? Could you tell me? Because now I'm getting really nervous. Like, you know, it's a spirit, you know, it's like, you know, I just signed a a contract here. Right. Who did I make a deal with? Who did I make a deal with? What is he saying? He was very coy about it. He says, Hey, look, just like like with the with the shaman thing. He says, Hey, you got lots of time, you know. We'll get into it when it's it's time. And what's Deanna thinking at this point? She's very reserved about it. She's she's not like digging the end. She's not sure like what's going on, but she can tell definitely that I my mood has changed. Something's changed. Something's really changed here.

SPEAKER_04 26:20

All right, so then what happens from there?

SPEAKER_02 26:22

So this goes on for a couple weeks.

SPEAKER_04 26:23

Occasionally having someone talk to you and maybe two or three times.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

Not not much. Very light in hand in that way. And then so suddenly he says, Go to the you know uh the front door, we have a a table where all the mail gets thrown in their bills and stuff like that. He said, I want you to look there, so I go there. And uh there's this flyer for a guy named Elliot Cowan who teaches plant spirit medicine. Right. He says, Uh, it's it's coming time that you get to know a little bit more about me and how to get into the work I want you to get into. And I said, Okay, so I look look, and it he's giving he's teaching a class on plant spirit medicine in Tepos Land, which is forty-five minutes to the east of Kuravaca.

SPEAKER_04 27:06

So you're going.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

And he said, and he says, uh, go pay him a visit. Yana calls up, and and evidently a rare occasion happened that he was actually at home because he travels a lot. And so I I show up and uh he invites me in, sits me down in the living room, and uh he says, Okay, what can I do for you? And I says, Well, I'm I need to I need to take your course uh in Plant Spirit Medicine, which is being offered here in the village. He says, Okay, fine. He says, uh, so tell me, uh, I guess you've read my book, because he he has a book out that's well known. And you've not read it. I said, No, I didn't even know you had a book. Yeah. He said, Okay, well, tell me about your healing practice. And I said, Well, I'm not a healer, I'm a business guy. Um and then he says, Well, then why are you here? And it's like, okay, now I gotta come play my stroll, like what am I gonna say here? And then it feels like, go ahead, tell him. And it's like I felt like this kick. The voice a little bit tell him, tell him. Like, you know, and this push. I said, Okay, so now I start talking about the story I just recounted. And uh he's very quiet. I can't read any emotion in his face, and I'm starting to think my face is getting a little red, and I'm starting to think, okay, he's got a crazy guy here. So I told a story, and then I said, You're gonna take me to uh you're gonna take me to a shaman who who's gonna know I'm coming.

SPEAKER_04 28:28

So the voice has told you that in addition to taking Elliot's class, that Elliot is going to lead you ultimately to a shaman who will know that you're coming.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

He's gonna know I'm coming and he's gonna help me out. Right. Okay. And so anyway, so at the end, I like, and you probably think I'm crazy. And he looked at me very calmly and he said, he says, No, that makes a lot of sense to me. I go, it does. He says, Yes, it does. Turns out he's apprenticing to be a Michel Marikami with Don Lupe Rios Gonzalez in Topek. Right. And uh and so he goes and and gets a photograph of of Don Lupe and said, the guy who showed up, did he look like this? And I said, No, that doesn't look like him. So anyway, I started the course and a month later he he was going to Topique to meet Don Lupe. And he brings me along. So I show up with him and Don Lupe looks at me and says, Oh, you're that guy. And I said, Okay, uh, so where we go. He says, Well, come back in the morning. And he says, I'm busy right now. And so But he knew he was expecting it. And he said he looked at me, oh, you're that guy. I says, Okay. So, okay. So I show back the next day, he takes a look at me, and he says, Oh, yes, this is not a spirit. He says, uh, this is a god.

SPEAKER_04 29:50

This voice it's speaking to you is not a spirit. It's a But I didn't even speak about it as a voice. I just said I'm supposed to be here. Oh. He knew already that there was someone. Yeah, he just looked at me.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

He said he kept me up all night last night.

SPEAKER_04 30:00

Oh, Don Lupe was kept up all night by the same voice voices. Voices, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

And he had said to you that this is not He says it's not a spirit. He says it's uh it's a god, but he's a chief god. That's the way he describes it. Chief God. Chief God. Uh-huh. And his his name is Tatawari. Tatawari. Yeah, so that's who's talking to you. Uh-huh. Okay. So now he identifies the name. And I say, What is what does that mean? And and and Elliot says, Well, that's Grandfather Fire. And uh he says, That's their that's their head shaman. That's the uh that was the original shaman.

SPEAKER_04 30:38

That's the main main. That's the main main chief god now.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

We talk about him, but it's that and and Elliot said, I'd never known someone who actually got in touch with in person. He says, You're gonna learn a lot. He says, I'm you're gonna be my apprentice now. And so uh they use the word disciple, you're gonna be my disciple now. Right. He says, but you better do what he says, or else you'll die. And I go, Oh, whoa, okay. Hey, look, I made my deal. I'm I'm gonna keep my end of the bargain here. And it's like, oh, that sounds pretty severe. Wow. And now the voice I know called you know Tukawati. Grandfather Fire. Grandfather Fire. He says, Okay, I want you to meet someone else. And he lives in a place called Nepopalco. So Grandfather Fire just tells you exactly who it is to be. He tells me what to see. In this case, he gave me the name. You know, he says uh Don Lucio.

SPEAKER_04 31:30

Don Lucio, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Okay, so we locate the town in Nepopalco. We show up and he's seeing people, so uh we sit down and he he looks at us and looks at me and he says, What do you do? I said, Well, I'm uh I'm a trade consultant. He says, No, no, what do you do? And I said, Oh, he doesn't know what that means. Silly of me. So I try to explain it and and uh Diana's helping me with the translation and he and he says, No, no, what do you do? And and she I'm baffled, like, what what is that? Okay, does he want my nationality or whatever? But Deanna can see that he's not looking at me, he's looking right here. Oh, and and Deanna goes, Oh, you m you want to know who he is. And he says, Yes, who is that? And and uh I said, I thought maybe you could tell me. So we're gonna do the double blind shaman test. Yeah, exactly. Maybe I can get out of this, you know. If he contradicts him, he said, okay, and so it goes into like a bit of a trance.

SPEAKER_04 32:28

So he's gonna divine who this entity is. Right. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

So I'm not telling him I want you don't give me any extra information. No, and no, and so what he does is he starts mumbling and grumbling and he's and he wakes up kind of like pretty quick. He says, Oh, he says, he says, that's not a spirit, that's not a ghost, it's not an ancestor, it's a god, but he's a chief god. He's saying exactly what the other thing says, well, you're gonna learn a lot, it's gonna be really good, but if you don't do what he says, you're gonna die. No, don't worry, I'm I'm gonna.

SPEAKER_04 33:01

So you got the exact same information. Same thing.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

But he didn't say uh grandfather fired. Well, no, he now calls him, he says he now calls him Shitakutli. Oh.

SPEAKER_04 33:09

So Shitakutli is their name for their version of Tatawadi.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Tatawadi. Yeah. Thank you. Now he says, you were struck by lightning, weren't you, when you were young. And I said, Yes, I was when I was 14.

SPEAKER_05 33:23

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

He says, Well, they're calling you. That's by the way, that's the calling card, is to survive a lightning strike. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 33:28

Wait, if you survive a lightning strike, that m opens you up to they've seen it as a message.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

The way this works is that you don't ask to work for them. They choose you. You don't say, Oh, I like this and I want to do it.

SPEAKER_04 33:43

So And and that's a little signal that you're one of the chosen people.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Okay. Okay. And so he says, now you need to it's a claim of initiation copying crowns. Right. And so I said, Okay, so here we go. Right. And so now I become uh what's called a Gray Center, a temperal, uh You're a student, uh student, yes. Okay. So So now comes the part of the deal.

SPEAKER_04 34:09

Now now grandfather. Now you've now you've made your two connections, right? And and there's some quid pro quo.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Now come exactly. Okay. So a contact of mine from my former life, he got a a contract from SOPCars USA to manufacture their uh document holder, which is made of leather. Right. And uh they were having trouble finding a place to make it happen. Long story short, you got the business. I got I got the business. So I got this contract. This one contract from Sabcar USA, and it was perfect and the price was great. It was just a sweetheart deal. And a sweetheart deal, and by the way, the money from that paid for everything. It paid all the back stuff. So you're clear. I'm now clear, and I now set something incoming to live on. And a little money to to actually do this work.

SPEAKER_04 35:03

So Grandfather Fire completely came good on his side of the bargain.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

And so it was like, okay. That's even more convincing. It's very convincing. Yeah. Until you start getting into some of the stuff you're supposed to be doing. You remember, our our mind is possibilities, but it's possibilities to doubt anything is unlimited. That's David's calling card. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:26

Even with all these confirmations again and again and again. Yes, exactly. You're still going, am I going crazy? Is this this ridiculous? Yes. This is a conversation I have with David all the time. You know, he keeps on saying, I want irrefutable fact, then I'll really believe. And you couldn't get more irrefutable than all these very concrete examples that are coming into your life, literally voices in your head, and people going, Oh, there he is. And and still there's doubt.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Yeah, so just to be on David's side for a moment here, so all this is going on, and uh and now I'm doing my he introduced this little morning and evening practice, you know, starting the day and ending the day. And now I sit down to because sometimes when he he wants to talk to me, he being father grandfather, grandfather fire uh wants to talk to me. That seems to be that state. He seems to be a little more open to talking. And I sit down and he doesn't say anything, that's that's not unusual. And so then the next evening, the next morning, nothing.

SPEAKER_04 36:31

So now that you're in the training, grandfather fire is beginning to retract a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

Well, all I know is I don't hear anything from him. And it's like it feels like there is nothing there. There's nothing, nothing, nothing. And that goes on for like ten days, and I think he's left me. Either left me or I'm just really, I am really just in this weird world of my imagination. And then and then I get to this point of of doubt that says, okay, I gotta make a decision here. Okay, I'm either in or I'm out.

SPEAKER_04 37:08

It's like you needed to make the decision internally. It was can't be all these props anymore. It needs to be you deciding I'm going to.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

The other worldly boys, this and that, and so I'm on my own, or or what? Was there a moment of decision for the yes I said clearly to myself, I've either gotta be all in, because this is definitely this is an all-in deal. Right. Or I'm gonna be all out. Uh there's definitely no halfway.

SPEAKER_04 37:33

So And there was the risk all out meant you might die if you were wrong, because the other side of the equation was if you don't keep your end of the deal, right? It may be just nonsense and crazy in this culture and being in it's like I'm just I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 37:49

Yeah. But because your mind can really take it apart. Yeah. And so I sat down, I mean I was there sitting in my prayers. I said, Okay, I'm all in. You made a decision.

SPEAKER_04 37:59

And he suddenly he pipes in and says, Good choice. He was quiet until then, and then he came in and said something. Oh my god. Right. And he says, suddenly he says, Good choice.

SPEAKER_02 38:10

And then it was like, oh man. Okay, I get the feel of what kind of boss he is. Yeah, a smart one. Oh he let you make your choice. He's been dealing with humans since the beginning of humanities. Anyway.

SPEAKER_04 38:23

So you said, yes, I'm going to do this. Now, now what happens with Grandfather Fire? Does his voice begin to fade, or how does that begin to play out?

SPEAKER_02 38:31

Okay, what happens next is that uh my partner uh Diana and I, we have a little habit in in Mexico. So we go to this little restaurant called San Borns. That's your place to go. Yeah, our place to go for evening. So we're out there sitting, having our our little merienda is what it's called.

SPEAKER_04 38:46

This is this is a little bit of time after you've made the decision that you're gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

Okay, a couple weeks. So uh we're eating our meal. Uh-huh. Okay, everything's fine. And suddenly I get gripped with uh a desire to smoke a cigar.

SPEAKER_04 39:04

Which and now are you a cigar smoker? No, no, no. I I don't smoke. No one in my family smokes. But suddenly you're filled with this very strong urge.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Exactly. To say, and I order now I order some hot chocolate and there's a tobacco shop part there, so I go there and they have cigars.

SPEAKER_04 39:20

Because you have this urge, which is uncommon to smoke a cigar.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

It is no, it's not uncommon. It's just non-existent. It's non-existent. Uh-huh. And so what happens? I go there and I I don't know which one to get, so I I get four or five cigars. She's looking at me warily, like she says, okay, what's that about? I says, I don't know. I just I just gotta have a cigar. And I start lighting it, and I I said, Wow, it's like I'm smoking this and drinking a little chocolate. And I said, Wow, when I'm smoking this, it's like it's like uh I boost the gain on him. Oh, you're hearing the voice clearer. Suddenly, it's like he starts to like show up talking, but it's like magnified it. Uh magnified it. Yeah. And I said, Wow, yeah, really clearly. He said, just go ahead and ask me a question.

SPEAKER_04 40:04

Grandfather Fire is now been magnified, and he's saying to you, go ahead, ask me a question.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

Yeah, he says, he says, you can ask me a question. And I said, I looked to her and I said, I said, uh, well, you have a question? And she says, sure, you know, why not? Yeah. This hasn't ever happened before where he said ask me a question? Yeah. Not like he's opening the floor for questions. Wow. All right. Before he tells me. He tells you you listen. Right. And I'm I'm puffing on this thing and drinking a little of this, and and uh he she asked a question. I said, Okay, he's saying this, he's saying that, and I feel my heart racing, uh-huh, and it's going up, and then suddenly, whoom! And then I wake up. There's uh morning. Well, I don't wake up that next morning. I wake up at the restaurant. Now I'm just lucky that this is Mexico, and they they probably thought this guy's drunk and whatever it is. Uh-huh. But he blazed through those cigars and and she got him more hot chocolate. Holy cow, wait, hold on.

SPEAKER_04 41:01

So you so you're gone. You did you don't know what happened, and you've actually now smoked four cigars.

SPEAKER_02 41:07

So by the time I re I returned, which was it was just a half hour long. Right. So in half hour, he had smoked these cigars and consumed all this chocolate. Wait. Grandfather Fire in in the form of Well, he shows up, so now he shows up in your body. In my body, and so suddenly Diana says she could tell, uh oh, he's shaking, something's happening, like what the heck is going on.

SPEAKER_04 41:30

Diana sings.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

Diana, and then suddenly Diana says, I got quiet, uh-huh, and then I kind of look up at her, or my face looks up at her, and he says, Hi, Toots. No.

SPEAKER_04 41:45

He's got a sense of humor.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

Yeah, oh, yeah, definitely is a sense of humor. And he said, Oh, I got that term from uh he talked about an anthropologist back around uh 19, he gave some date. It's where Toots came from. Yeah, he's where he got it from. Yeah, and so she says, This is not David.

SPEAKER_04 42:02

Because you would normally not say that.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

Oh, no, no, the demeanor, everything was drastically different.

SPEAKER_04 42:07

She had a conversation. She had a conversation.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

What was she thinking? She was thinking like she's not quite sure what this is, but it's phenomenally. Well, certainly interesting. Intriguing.

SPEAKER_04 42:18

And that's the first time that He embodied you. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So so Don David, this is this is the most incredible journey that you've been on. If you if you could take all the messages and all the teachings and lessons of Grandfather Fire and sort of uh put them together, coalesce them into the the core message of what Grandfather Fire is communicating to us uh humanity. W what would you say that core message is?

SPEAKER_02 42:50

Yeah, I would I would frame it as for the sake of what do I believe he's doing this? Yeah, okay. Okay, and uh for the sake of what is that we are going in a seriously wrong direction. We're moving in a dangerous direction. He's trying to show us how to become how to be in relationship with the world, and that like a living relationship with the world.

SPEAKER_04 43:14

Right. And what is the key to being in a relationship with the world?

SPEAKER_02 43:17

The key is first to understand that the world's alive and we're part of a living fabric.

SPEAKER_04 43:22

We're all interwoven.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

We're all interwoven, and that uh and so what constitutes relationship and how to be in relationship with the world? Like what does that mean and how do you live it? Right.

SPEAKER_04 43:33

What I picked up was the message was to get out of the head, get into the heart, to follow the heart and to let that be our beacon.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

Right. So it's like the heart is the master and the mind is the servant. Right. And once you get that, it's gonna be a lot better for you and for others.

SPEAKER_04 43:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:54

So if people want to get more into the uh messages of Grandfather Fire, people can look at your websites and all the information.org or keeps the fire.org, which is which is my my consultorio, my what I do for my healing work. But also there's a book out called Heard Around the Fire. Okay, which is uh collection of quotes from him.

SPEAKER_04 44:14

Oh, fantastic. That's uh Heard Around the Fire. Um, Don David, thank you so much for being here and sharing with us this incredible journey you have been on. It's mind blowing. And what's so great about it is just how authentic you are, and there's no pretense. You just you just sort of like lay it out there. Here's what I've been through.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

Yeah, well, I'm gonna go home and smoke a cigar and have some hot chocolate, just see what comes through. Just see what happens. Thank you so much for being here. It's been awesome.

SPEAKER_04 44:42

You're so welcome. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Realization Lab on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.